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Welcome to the USAGOLD Gold Discussion Archives. The archives of this gold discussion forum are a treasure trove of information to educate investors about protecting their wealth through portfolio diversification with private gold ownership. The discussion forum also covers the wider issues of the past, present, and future role of gold in international monetary policy and the dynamics of the modern gold markets...   (Discussion Forum Hall of Fame) (The Gold Trail) ("Thoughts!" by ANOTHER)   The opinions posted by all guests are expressly their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the management or staff of USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals. The hosting of the public discussion shall therefore not be construed as an endorsement by USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals of any of the opinions posted here.

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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 1/9/2004
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

(Yesterday's Discussion.)

Goldilox (1/9/04; 23:57:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 115028)
US set to back state control of Iraqi oil
http://www.guardian.co.uk/oil/story/0,11319,1118137,00.html
snippit:

"David Teather in New York
Thursday January 8, 2004
The Guardian

Officials are likely to recommend the creation of a state-run company to own and manage the Iraqi oil industry, shutting out foreign investment and countering, in part, allegations that the US-led invasion of the country was merely an oil grab."

Goldilox:

Now WHICH state might that be? Texas?

mikal (1/9/04; 23:51:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 115027)
Eagles and Krugerrands fly to far away lands...
It's occurred to me that the timeline for the production of bullion coins worldwide is always a sporadic affair. That their commencement and end has usually been unexpected and abrupt. With so many commemorative issues to supplement the usual offerings, such as monkeys and heroes and statues and stars, they reach farther than ever, implying a future with
more permanent, annual coinage.
If true, a metallic circulating ruble for every country, never mind the purity, then the paper notes would need backing too, more than the present euro!
This would likely spell the end to gold and silver bullion Libertads, Eagles, Pandas, Brittanias, Maple Leafs, Kangaroos(Nuggets), Philharmonics, Krugerrands(Springboks) as we know them.
Which of these countries will make bullion minting obsolete first?
A) Australia? Under pressure from world economic crisis and competition from regional powers in Asia and the world?
B) U.S.? Decreeing that all treasury, central bank and certain in-ground precious metals be employed for "the common welfare" as backing for her currency and collatoral for her renegotiated debt payments?
C) Canada? Incensed by heavy-handed hoarding from Great Britain and U.S.A. and satiated with the Queen's portrait?
Persuaded to join the N.A.C.B.(North American Central Bank) and monetary system?
D) Mexico? Unable to stem the outflow of metal and natural resources to first world counries by any other means and/or prodded to join the new "dollar" system and the N.A.C.B.(North American Central Bank)?
E) China? Implimenting the next stage of a 50 year economic plan to build the economy and salvage the tottering banking system?
F) Austria? Recruited into a Euro-wide effort to stabilize
the crisis-shaken volatile euro by contributing more of their central bank reserves to the ECB?
G) Great Britain? Humiliated by the cratering demand for her stratospherically priced, limited-mintage, "Queen Elizabeth" issues, halts the Brittania coinage and offers the metal stock to the campaign to save the fledgling fiat euro?
H) South Africa? Joining one or other of her global allies for political and domestic advantage?

Goldilox (1/9/04; 23:48:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 115026)
Japan's FOREX reserves hit new record
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_asiapacific_business/view/65524/1/.html
snippit:

"TOKYO: Japan's foreign exchange reserves, the world's largest, hit a record high at the end of 2003 as it continued to buy dollars to cap the rising yen and promised more funds for such intervention.

Japan's foreign exchange reserves rose 29 billion dollars to 673.5 billion dollars at the end of December for a fourth consecutive monthly record, the finance ministry said.

"The biggest reason for the gain was (currency) market intervention," said ministry official Hiroko Inaoka.

Goldilox:

And they're going back for more. Now that's what I call a "line of credit". It's just not resurrecting the "dead cat" they're spending it on. Oops, I did it again. There goes Kittie off to bed in a huff.

Goldilox (1/9/04; 23:41:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 115025)
Deficit Hits $126 Billion In Fiscal First Quarter
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1665-2004Jan8.html
snippit:

"By Jonathan Weisman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, January 9, 2004; Page E01

The federal budget deficit reached $126 billion in the first three months of the 2004 fiscal year, as improving tax receipts were outpaced by rising federal spending, congressional auditors said this week.

The first quarter total puts the deficit on pace to top $500 billion and adds weight to increasingly insistent calls for more attention to the government's deteriorating fiscal health. Economists with the International Monetary Fund warned Wednesday that the twin U.S. budget and trade deficits "pose significant risks for the rest of the world."

Goldilox:

Where DID I put that credit card? I'm not keeping up!

Goldilox (1/9/04; 23:34:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 115024)
Old News about FIAT
@ Ten Bears

Four words to describe why not:

Bankers
Politicians
Power
Greed

Goldilox (1/9/04; 23:30:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 115023)
Nixon's role in dollar's demise
http://www.moneyfiles.org/usapower.jpg
@ GAB

Great post. I do not disagree in general. However, the timeline at this link and the volumes of literature we have explored here suggest that more likely, Nixon's action was but one event (although an important one) in a much larger theater of dollar domination and devaluation.

International bankers have been steering administrations and kingdoms with their financial manipulations for centuries. Politicians are smart cookies, but their forte is getting elected and mediating political action and compromises. They often work from incomplete and/or faulty data and analysis - leading them into what later look like real bonehead moves. Witness the Bay of Pigs, where JFK was maneuvered by Dulles and the "company" into a half-assed attempt to remove the very dictator the CIA had sponsored a couple years earlier in the Cuban revolution (sound familiar - Iraq watchers?).

Bankers certainly don't mind a little egg on the face of the politicians, as it keeps them in their place, and then they come back for more "advice".

Richard Nixon was a good foreign relations president, who didn't know beans about finance. I would bet his "finance advisors" scared him with the threat of De Gaulle taking all our "stash", so he thought there was no other option. And maybe by that time, there WAS no other option. Who knows, now?

So the bankers begin their government sponsored accumulation leading into the $850 peak at 16% prime rate, sell out to Joe Sixpack, and force another 20 year (accumulative-for them) bear until the steam engine explodes and they can sell out again. Yes - history rhymes!

Ten Bears (1/9/04; 23:19:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 115022)
Old News About Fiat/Debt Money
If memory serves, history reveals that some congressman (perhaps Lindbergh) protested during the debate to establish the "federal" reserve in 1913… "If we need a banking bill, why not just have the treasury print the money and spend into existence rather borrow from bankers who do not have the money and create it from nothing in order to loan it to our government. Either way will require an income tax, and the bankers’ proposal will allow them (the bankers) to collect interest on all government expenditures. We can eliminate that interest expense." We all know the outcome of that debate. The same or similar proposals have been advanced numerous times, particularly during the 1930's, however, to no avail.

One proposal advanced during the depression to eliminate the central bank without creating a catastrophic event entailed raising the fractional reserve banks reserve ratio to approximately one hundred percent (reducing the money supply) and to print treasury bills (greenbacks) to increase the money supply in amounts sufficient to neutralize the transaction and retire debt.

Of course, the political power of the central banking cartel was and still is such that no changes were made in those directions. Instead, the Glass-Stegal Act of 1933 was repealed during Clinton's term allowing banks free reign; additionally, the banks reserve ratios have been effectively reduced to zero allowing extreme expansion of money supply.

So what? Check out the interest on the national debt (www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdint.htm) and the total treasury gross tax collections (www.economagic.com/em-cgi/data.exe/data.exe/irssoi/grosstax1). As interest expense on the national debt increases relative to total tax revenues, those in power must find ways to increase tax revenue by expanding economic activities (interest rate cuts), or cutting federal (non-interest) expenses, discretionary spending, social security, social programs etc.


Great Albino Bat (1/9/04; 22:34:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 115021)
Nixon's action in 1971 and today's consequences...

I believe it might be useful to review briefly, how Nixon's fateful decision to "close the gold window" on August 15, 1971, is at the root of today's financial disarray throughout the world.

Up to August 15, 1971, all countries of the world had the right to exchange the dollar holdings of their Central Banks for gold, at their option. And all countries of the world, except for the USA, had the obligation to settle claims originating in their imports, by paying either in gold or dollars.

The US was thus able to import from abroad, and pay out either gold or dollars, which were preferred by the US of course, since the US produces dollars via its financial system. Early on, France didn't care much for being paid in dollars, and insisted on gold, much to the US displeasure.

The US was able to expand (create) credit and thus create the possibility for extra IMPORTS, because it had the Fed and banking system to create dollars. The other countries did not have this privilege, they had to pay for their imports by exporting goods or selling services like tourism, for instance. The rest of the world's countries were held back by the fact that they did not create dollars.

The "engine for growth" was thus the US, which was the only country that could print up dollars and buy with them. The other countries had to pay for imports either with stuff they sold, or with gold, or with dollars, which they could get by selling to the US. (US imports were their exports)

If they could not sell all they wanted to the US, they did the next best thing and tried their best, to sell something to someone for dollars, and this meant that someone had to be selling something to the US in order to get those dollars.

By 1968 or so, most of the Central Banks of the world had their fill of dollars and were asking for gold. US and Britain did their best to contain the demand for gold, but to no avail. Gold continued to leave the US.

So we come to 1971. Nixon and his advisers felt that US stocks of gold were dangerously low, and so Nixon said, "No more redemption of dollars for gold."

But, by 1971 the whole world was relying on sales to the US to keep their industries working and their people employed. "No more gold" should have been the immediate signal to hold back sales to the US until a revaluation of gold had taken place and a new monetary arrangement set up, and perhaps that would have included ditching the US privilege of paying for imports in dollars.

But, that did not happen. The structure of world production was, already by then, geared up to sell to the US, and the rest of the world had no leaders to say: "No gold means we don't sell!"

That was 32 years ago.

In the meantime, the dragon of credit creation was turned loose in the US, as the figures show. Dollar creation through credit expansion in the US took off, now that there was no need to redeem dollars held abroad for gold. The dragon of credit expansion had been chained down to the floor, by the fact that dollars had to be redeemed. Now, the dragon was free!

32 years later, the world is completely dependent on continued sales to the US - even for worthless paper! Because stopping the sales means throwing millions out of work.

The ECB is under great pressure to lower its interest rate from 2%; the object of the pressure is to make the Euro worth less, in order to be able to continue selling to the US, or whoever has the dollars. Otherwise, they have to close up shop, as their product is priced out of the market. My guess is that the ECB is going to cave in and debase their currency (that's more good news for gold) just to be able to keep their plants running and their people employed.

"To wealth through poverty" is the motto today. Countries want to devalue - Japan leads the way - and impoverish their people, so they can produce and sell more and be wealthy.

Gold payments kept the world in order in the 19th Century.
Gold payments chained the dragon of credit expansion, all over the world.

The Bretton Woods arrangements (1944) included the dollar "as good as gold" - a fatal flaw!

There is no painless way out of this terrible mess of worldwide massive investment in productive plant that should never have been installed, and would not have been installed had not the US had the privilege of paying for goods with money created out of thin air. The way out won't be nice. It will involve a worldwide collapse of production and trade and probably bloody wars, before all is in ruins and men begin to pick up their tools to rebuild again.

There is a saying that getting wealth is hard, but keeping it is an even harder job. Gold owners, think about it.

The GAB. Have a happy weekend!

Goldilox (1/9/04; 22:28:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 115020)
The War rages on - DOW vs. Gold
Catchy title, eh?

sorry about that. I've been reading too long today.

Goldilox (1/9/04; 22:26:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 115019)
The War Wages On - DOW vs. gold Dow VS Gold The War Wages On Dow VS Gold by Sol War wages on DOW vs. gold
http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/ti/2004/0109.html
snippit:

"In February 2003, the Dow would only buy about 21 ounces of Gold and yet the price of Gold was about 100 dollars lower than today. Yet this one picture tells a startling tale. While all the gold bugs are jubilant that the price of Gold has gone through the roof, in effect it is nothing but an illusion. The Dow buys much more Gold now then it could about one year ago.

What gives? I have been stating for a long time that everyone needs to wake up and smell the coffee. We are in the midst of a currency war. We have no standard of pricing any currency., that is why Gold is so important because you can measure any currency against a constant. Without Gold the constant value is removed from the equation and all hell breaks lose. That is what is going on right now. While it appears that Gold is going to the moon in US dollars in reality it is not doing much and is still losing value in the strongest currencies."

Goldilox:

More evidence by Sol over at FSU that the current gold rally is a "dollar thang". Phase II should begin the real bull, overtaking stronger currencies, as well. As usual, good reading.

Goldilox (1/9/04; 22:17:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 115018)
Quigley's Book "Tragedy and Hope"
http://www.moneyfiles.org/quigley.html
@21Maybry

I remember you had some interest in political history of the international banking community.

Check this link out.

Denarius (1/9/04; 22:15:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 115017)
@Waverider - Russia puts gold and silver coins in circulation
http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=286383&PageNum=0

Waverider (01/08/04; 23:58:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 114927)

Just to learn something I put the numbers in that article through my Mk-I/Mod-0 brain and the Au/Ag ratio figures to be an even 60 between the two coins. For comparison, the Denarius personal stash just happens to equal 50 to 1 by weight. I believe the Koran gives the ratio of gold to silver as one dinar to seven dirham. For the world at large, our fellow poster provided the rest of the numbers:

Goldendome (1/9/04; 17:57:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 115005)
Poor Man's Gold closing the Gap!
Gold/Silver ratio today is at 65.97 to 1
At the end of Dec.it was......70.50
Back in May it was, TA-TAhh...80.+

I'm not sure what I learned by this but I cannot shake the feeling that it is something I will need to know in the not too distant future. Wouldn't it be something if the ratio on the CRIMEX does level out at 60/1 ?



Goldilox (1/9/04; 21:39:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 115016)
Dollar value timeline
http://www.moneyfiles.org/usapower.jpg
A cool JPG timeline of US dollar devaluation throughout the 20th century. Good art, too.

Druid (1/9/04; 21:23:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 115015)
(No Subject)
http://www.dailyreckoning.com/
Snip.

"Gardano suggests that credit card delinquencies and personal bankruptcies are "a natural outgrowth" of a $10 trillion economy driven almost totally by consumer spending. And quite happily adds that the more the "economy improves, the more people will grow deeper in debt and bankruptcies will grow." Now we're completely baffled. Orwell couldn't have improved on this one: Increasing debt and bankruptcies rising from an already staggering historical level = an "improving economy." Color me confused..."

Druid: In some of my more youthful indescretions, which at times, challenged the boundries of my physical and mental well being, I couldn't have smoked or ingested enough drugs or consumed enough alcohol to arrive at this type of totally %$#&@*( logic. It's no wonder that our leaders are looking to far away galaxies for solutions.


steady (1/9/04; 21:20:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 115014)
ECOisms stuff.
many books have been recomended on this form, many dealing with the root of gold, the evolution of the metals role, the ways to grade it, and the wars associated with it, all causes of the recent gyrations we have seen not only in the pog, the pos, the dvig, but in the silver gold ratio as well.

ecosim is the direct results of those causes it is the effect being felt upon the population of this plantet. ecoism takes into consideration of the upcoming effect upon the planets population and recomends three books worthy of reading, 1) taking the fear out of change dr. Denise O'Grady. 2) ethical relativity e.Westmark , especially in light of kilos lighting my eyes up with that superb stuff he posted about everything being relative.(yea , yea BURRRRRRRRRPpppp..... opps im still digesting that food for thought) 3) building mental muscle, conditioning exercises for the six intelligence zones, david Gamon, does it work? has my typing improved?
Ecoism adds compassion to its platform, but not that old style consevative compassion , no this compassion is from the heart and its radience gleaams from eye to eye in a golden silver recognition of brotherhood unity love and trust that no one no group no cartel no govt ever has had the powere to control EVER< and EVER amen! just from a glance a simple eye contact and a nodding of the head, a silent but powerful bond is developing between those who own gold/silver and the gold/silver itself its almost as if its calling out come tell them they may listen now.
this compasion realzes the dire straits many who do not have anything on this planet face, but it is themselvs who have to help themselvs and realize that paper money can be turned into real money now and to actally go do it do it. one 1/10th of an ounce at a time or whatever but since no one has any really then its a level playing fied. so is the compassion limited? heck yes, there are no free lunches anywhere in the univewrse its all universal law exact, mathamatical,and perpeetual. see ecoism realzes that things evolve, and at times devolve but all monetary affairs will revolve around gold and silver in some way and its on its way.
thats the compassion ecoism extends, get gold / silver real money or be left behind. simple as that!
do not miss this trip to infinity and beyond.........

Druid (1/9/04; 20:57:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 115013)
(No Subject)
http://www.dailyreckoning.com/
Snip.

"An ominous harbinger for U.S. financial assets," writes our friend Terry Reik of Clapboard Hill Partners, "has been the stunning collapse in foreign-capital flows...From a peak of $110.4 billion in May, net foreign flows have fallen to $90.6 billion in June, to $73.4 billion in July, to $49.9 billion in August, to $4.2 billion in September."

September's net inflow, Terry explains, is only 10% of the monthly minimum required to fund our $500 billion current account gap. Private interests overseas have forsaken the dollar in favor of other assets.

Druid: Oh! Here's the problem.



Dollar Bill (1/9/04; 20:13:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 115012)
*>*
http://www.morganstanley.com/GEFdata/digests/latest-digest.html#anchor0
The Roach commentary is quite different from his usual hopeful embraceing of -lets share the global realignment schtick-.
Unless it is too late to make your forum gold 04 predictions, I change mine to 450-500. Lets make that 502.
TownCrier, the news is good.


White Hills (1/9/04; 20:08:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 115011)
Dry washer & Gab
A very well known Salesman of my times, once told me and I have never forgotten, that if at once you see that the Sale is dead any thing you do afterward ,no matter how radical, can only help bring it back to life if possible, if not you haven't lost anything. The dollar is dying IMHO so any effort to revive it no matter how radical is understandable. From the outside it may seem nuts but on the inside that may be a different thing. Perhaps talking about the moon and Mars for instance, may be an effort to put forth something that will divert the publics attention from what is going on in the economic sphere, Perhaps WW3 has started and know one wants to say so. We may be seeing efforts to bring as many allies into our camp as possible and to secure those that are a little shaky, Mexico for instance. All the things being said about the dollar, gold, deficiets, national debt, loss of jobs, loss of manufacturing ability, immigration ect. all are true but everything is different since 9/11 it is a different world and I think the USA is under attack and will do whatever it takes no matter how radical it may seem to preserve our Republic. I don't see any other solution but a radical one, do you?
This is not a political opinion, I could care less who is in office I don't see any difference if you asked me, Maybe on guy seems more likeable than the other but that is in the eye of the beholder. White Hills

Gonlyold (1/9/04; 19:24:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 115010)
Banks, UGH!
Ag Mountain said (msg#: 115003)that, "anyone else who ever borrowed money from a bank" is part of the problem. And because borrowing, particularly the money-from-thin-air kind, got us into this mess, you've answered Federal_Reserves's question (msg#: 115006) of, "WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO US?" The fractional reserve system happpened to us. But I'm afraid that it's worse than that.

And whether or not gold can "save" us is questionable. I'm sure a few of us who have physical gold may think that we are in comfortable positions right now, but I don't think that I will be too comfortable when the U.S. economy goes down and other people start getting hungry (This is a subject that deserves more attention than this one parpagraph). Like BB has mentioned many times in the past, food, clothing and shelter: get you some.


Paper Avalanche (1/9/04; 19:23:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 115009)
Spelling errors.....
Repleat in my last post. I beg your indulgence.

PA

Paper Avalanche (1/9/04; 19:08:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 115008)
@ Twincaman
Per your earlier post...

"Despite all this talk of physical gold being used as money, I believe that paper or electronic money must continue. Without it, modern commerce would cease. Currency used in trade IMHO has to be more portable than Kruggerands.

We will always have some kind of currency, maybe pegged to a measured amount of a non-inflatable commodity like gold. Physical gold as money is incompatible with world trade."

I have the following thoughts that may provide some clarity and insight into what lies ahead.

For starters, there is no talk about gold being used as "money" on this site by the regulars. The reason for this is that what lies ahead of us is gold being internationally reconized a store of value (a means by which one could preserve the excess of labor for future use not subject to bank / government devaluation as is now the case with paper dollars or dollar denominated financial "assets").

I agree that we will forever need a universally accepted transaction medium by which those that produce widget A can convert the product of their labor into product B. However, I believe that it is a mistake to assume that because gold was a monetary unit in the past that it will be utilized in similar measure in the future. Your post points out the fact that the high tech nature of commerce today requires a transaction currency with which workers can exchange labor for goods.

I believe that gold is a horrible currnecy. However, it is a terrific store of wealth.

What is wealth?

To me it is a function of my chronological point in my life timeline. I am 33 years old. I know that I can produce more than I need to live on for the next 20 years (hopefully) and I also realize that I may live beyond my productive years such that I may rely upon the bounty of my productive years to complement whatever meager earnings I can generate when I am less capable. To that end I wish to conserve my excess labor in a vehicle that is not subject to any man's political will, greed or fraud. As a result, I do not contribute anything to my 401(k) (because the stock market generates an average return of 7% and health care costs - which is what you are saving for in retirement anyway - are rising at a rate of 20+% annually - even a Wharton grad could figure this out).

In a nutshell, and hopefully to your benefit, I would ask that you dwell upon the difference between the following concepts:

transaction medium

store of wealth

transaction medium

store of wealth

transaction medium

store of wealth

Gold is not money. It has only been for brief periods of time in history (relative to paper money - and only under penalty of law for deviation from said state set exchange rate). It is the absolute best way to preserve that which God has given you and which you only have a finite amount of....

your days on this earth.

Take care.

Paper Avalanche

Paper Avalanche (1/9/04; 18:32:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 115007)
@ Goldilox
Genius. I am anything but. I am just a guy drinking beer watching this whole gold thing shake out and learning from the truly insightful, intellectual giants who unselfishly provide us all with an education that could not be found anywhere else.

If you make enough guesses at a specific outcome, you eventually get it right (albeit that I actually predicted $430+ close today). As they say in sales, even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while.

Humbly yours,

PA

Federal_Reserves (1/9/04; 18:17:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 115006)
Industry on Parade
http://americanhistory.si.edu/archives/d4507.htm
The USA was once a producing country, and we were proud of it. Industry on Parade was a great show born in the great 1950's era. It started with a loud whistle blowing, and the work shifts starting. It then explained the real craft of life - manufacturing. Do you remember this show? To bad they took it off.

Now we are losing jobs and deeply in debt. We make a living as door greeters at Wal-Mart selling cheap crap others make. Goverment and trade deficits are piling high. The dollar is turning into toliet paper. Soon
it will be used as wipe because it will be cheaper than
CHARMIN.

WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO US?










Goldendome (1/9/04; 17:57:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 115005)
Poor Man's Gold closing the Gap!
Gold/Silver ratio today is at 65.97 to 1
At the end of Dec.it was......70.50
Back in May it was, TA-TAhh...80.+

Gold has been repressed and is breaking out. Others also say that Silver has been, at least, equally repressed and that Demand/Supply issues with Silver may be more extreme. Gold is pulling the Silver caboose, but the Silver shorts will be creamed as badly as the Gold shorts. Gold and Silver--both-real money for thousands of years. Got-and-getting more onto the Gold and Silver express.

Gandalf the White (1/9/04; 17:49:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 115004)
YES, Sir Rich !!! Your wish is my command ! <;-)
http://stockcharts.com/def/servlet/SC.pnf?chart=$SILVER,PYPA[PA][DA][F!3!1.0!]&pref=G
Although not of TRADITIONAL P&F design, (which does not give an adequate PICTURE), this above LINKED SPECIAL P&F SILVER CHART (just for you) shows that "HI HO SILVER" is off and running again today, (AND it won't stop for a while !) ----
HAVE fun while ALL the clouds have those SILVER linings !
<;-)


Ag Mountain (1/9/04; 17:08:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 115003)
Goldilox, those bozos are us!
Those greedy bozos as you call them are all around us. They're your friend, brother, parents, neighbor, and anyone else who ever borrowed money from a bank as a way to tap into their future stream of productivity (wages) in order to start living a more comfortable life today.

Some people here like to gripe about it but I can tell you the root of the effect is every bit as innocent as it is inflationary.

So the trick as the giants at this forum have shown us is not to let our combination of good intentions and ignorance combine to repeat old mistakes. They want to get rid of the inflation of financial gold obligations that are treated and accounted for as if they were part of the true gold supply. That's what they mean by setting gold free -- eliminating the illusion of abundance caused by the bookkeeping of financial gold obligations as derivatives of real gold.

Goldilox (1/9/04; 16:53:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 115002)
gold credits and debits
@ Gene

Oh you mean, like, dollars defined in the constitution?

That's where this all started until some greedy bozos decided there wasn't enough gold to keep up with their inflationary ideals.

Gene (1/9/04; 16:17:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 115001)
@Caman
Couldn't gold debits & payments be handled by book entries, just like T-notes are handled today?

Twincaman (1/9/04; 15:40:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 115000)
Hard Money
Despite all this talk of physical gold being used as money, I believe that paper or electronic money must continue. Without it, modern commerce would cease. Currency used in trade IMHO has to be more portable than Kruggerands.

We will always have some kind of currency, maybe pegged to a measured amount of a non-inflatable commodity like gold. Physical gold as money is incompatible with world trade.

Cavan Man (1/9/04; 14:33:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 114999)
Your "Great White Father"(knows best eh?) in Washington
Affecting POG by the 24-7 (BELIEVE IT)
Former Treasury Sec. Paints Bush as 'Blind Man'
Fri January 09, 2004 10:41 AM ET

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Former U.S. Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill likened President Bush at Cabinet meetings to "a blind man in a room full of deaf people," according to excerpts on Friday from a CBS interview.
O'Neill, who was fired by Bush in December 2002, also said the president did not ask him a single question during their first one-on-one meeting, which lasted an hour.

"As I recall it was just a monologue," he told CBS' "60 Minutes," which will broadcast the entire interview on Sunday.

In making the blind man analogy, O'Neill told CBS his ex-boss did not encourage a free flow of ideas or open debate.

"There is no discernible connection," CBS quoted O'Neill as saying. The president's lack of engagement left his advisers with "little more than hunches about what the president might think," O'Neill said, according to the program.

CBS said much of O'Neill's criticisms of Bush are included in "The Price of Loyalty," an upcoming book by former Wall Street Journal reporter Ron Suskind.


a nation of one (1/9/04; 14:17:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 114998)
to gab

The "world's most intelligent people," contrary to the current propaganda would have us believe, fortunately, are not members of one racial, social, religious, or ethnic group, but are spread throughout humanity. Every group has its members who are more intelligent than the rest. But what needs to be paid attention to is not mere intelligence, but where is it located, in terms of mental component. It is possible for a human individual to possess very high intelligence, say, in the verbal component, which would mean that the individual would be able to verbalize his thoughts in a very intelligent way, while, at the same time, other mental components -in the same individual's mind- may not be highly intelligent (and in fact may be below average intelligence), which would mean that the very intelligently expressed verbalizations of such a person would be made up of ideas which, themselves, were not intelligent at all. If you look carefully for this, you will see it. I believe it is pretty clear that this is going on right now in very visible ways, with respect to some pretty significant events, in the world. Remember, most human beings are only of average intelligence or below. And many who are very intelligent have comparatively little ability to express their ideas well. The concept of intelligence, therefore, is often misinterpreted, sometimes coincidently, sometimes deliberately to achieve a particular type of result, such as in propaganda to raise one group above another. Those with higher intelligence in math, for instance, are more likely to be good also at finances, and these will be more likely to recognize the present virtues of gold, than someone who is good at obedience, for example. And then of course there are those who lack all ability to do things even so simple as spell English words properly, and yet who show their other types of intelligence every day, some of them on this forum. These are probably more intelligent than those to whom you refer as "The world's most intelligenct people."

Denarius (1/9/04; 14:12:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 114997)
@Golden Era - About Greenspan & Outrageous
Golden Era (1/9/04; 09:19:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 114970)
About Greenspan

Just a follow-up thought. Can - all the gold that has been mined by man for thousand of years and all the gold that have been sold by the central banks be accounted for?
D> Yes, it will be accounted for, one troy ounce at a time as it is spent over the next few thousand years.

What if they have been hoarded in hugh quantities by some covert organisation in the last few decades which only the select few like Greenspan is aware of.
D> No matter to me since I 'joined' that group of hoarders some time back.

Am I getting more Outrageous?
D> I don't know, let me see. Running your last statement through the Outrageous Quantifying Subroutine in my surplus HAL-1000 we get the result:
>>>> "Why, no, what makes you ask, Dave?" <<<<
I'm no conspiracy junkie but the truth is always unbelievable when first revealed. In fact, that reminds me of something I wrote a few years back when my life wasn't going so well. Fwiw,

=There are only three ways sheeple handle new information;
=They ignore it,
=Then they deny it,
=And then they wage war on it.

But don't rely on me; ask Galileo when you see him.

Outrageous? You want Outrageous? Here's some outrageous for you -- if you can handle outrageous:

http://isht.comdirect.de/charts/big.chart?=2&hist=14d&lSyms=SLV.FX1&lColors=0x000000&sSym=SLV.FX1

http://isht.comdirect.de/charts/big.chart?hist=14d&lSyms=GLD.FX1&lColors=0x000000&sSym=GLD.FX1

http://stockcharts.com/def/servlet/SharpChartv05.ServletDriver?chart=$copper,uu[c,a]dalanyay[da][p][vc60][i]&r=0501

Not a bad way to start the new year, imo.
Unless, of course, you're holding the USD in your portfolio:

http://quotes.ino.com/chart/intraday.gif?s=NYBOT_DXY0&t=f&w=15&a=0&v=w

I might even predict that the word 'outrageous' will get worn out in this next year -- or in this posting!

Have a Good Weekend, all; I know mine already has a silver blush on its golden glow. (Now where did I put that last dollar and the frame for it?)



steady (1/9/04; 14:08:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 114996)
risks turne dinto mining opportunities
yep its all risk capitol and im taking some off the table as frequently as i can once my accounts digital credits equal a certain level then its off the table with that digital money .

it a trip push certain buttons in te right sequence and at the right time, see its so backwards that they gpot ya conditioned cause of trafic lights to thing green means go and red means stop, but in the big paper casino its just the opposite, red means go, green means stop.

then u see i press even another machines buttons and lo and behold someone talks back to me and i say hey send me a check,a few days latter the post main brings me paper with more digits imprinted upon them , i run as quick as my lil hobbit feet can carry me to the bankers office and say hey can i put this into your care for a few days.
then i go to another machine and put in a plastic card and punchh in even another sequence of numbers to finally get some of dem unprized papers that the federal reserve disguises to pass as united states dollars by printing under the federal reserve note
the united states of america ,for what reason i dont know but only to fool the unsuspecting., then finally i get to go to where teh real money is and exchange some of those papers for gold and silver the real honest money.
a laborious process , but alot easier to mine gold/silver that way, as well heck most of the good claims are allready taken and i dont really feel like prospecting anyway when i can mne for gold this way, and never ever expose myself to the elements. yes my goal is to have more ral money than digital money but the dang paper leverage is making it hard to keep up, but im getting there one gram at a time!

Goldilox (1/9/04; 13:56:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 114995)
paper Risks
@ steady

If everything in the paper market is risk capital, with expectations to lose as well as win, have at it. If the paper burns, then it's all gone anyway. A major reason for removing winnings from the "table" and storing physical is for liquidity and wealth to survive if the paper game goes drastically sour.

If 90% of your assets crash in the paper game, you need a 10X return on physical (insurance) value to "get even" - not counting what other abberations are included in "getting even".

That's why wary managers are uping their allocation of "insurance" from 10% to 20% or even 30%. At 30%, if your paper assets crash, a 10X return on physical assets averages out to about 3X the original asset portfolio.


R Powell (1/9/04; 13:49:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 114994)
From the horse's mouth,
That horse being Jim Glassman, Sr. Ecomonist for J.P. Morgan who was just interviewed by the lovely Maria on the peoples' stock picking television channel.

Jim says that "everyone knows recovery is here" and that "nothing on the economic front indicates caution". He was refering to stock buying, of course. He says that inflation is still deflating and currently one half of one percent. He speculates the next report will show the core rate flat.

I think I'll e-mail Jim to ask him the name of his optometrist.
Rich

steady (1/9/04; 13:33:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 114993)
what if
what if u are fully invested in the paper game, and playing with the casinos money, why not if u can trade in and out on to gain more digital credits. then use those digital credits to buy more shares of the co u are holding in your core positions. with without adding any more fiat to your account and using that fiat for physical.
nothing was ever achieved without taking a risk.

Goldilox (1/9/04; 13:06:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 114992)
Levi's moves West (beyond the Int'l Dateline) - closes 2 remaining US plants
http://www.citizenonline.net/citizen/archive/article6132461CC81849CA8F7A02FA4FDC80F9.asp
snippit:

"SAN ANTONIO (AP) — Levi Strauss & Co., the California Gold Rush outfitter whose blue jeans are a globally recognized symbol of America, closed its last two U.S. sewing plants Thursday.
About 800 workers at the 26-year-old San Antonio plants lost their jobs in the move, which was announced last September.
The financially troubled company, based in San Francisco, has been shifting production to overseas contractors for years to offset drooping sales in the ultra-competitive apparel market. Only two decades ago, it had 63 U.S. manufacturing plants.
Levi Strauss spokesman Jeff Beckman said the 150-year-old company was making a delayed but unavoidable business decision.
‘‘We tried to do our best to maintain manufacturing in the United States, but we have to be competitive to survive as a company,’’ he said.
Sewing in San Antonio finished up around Thanksgiving and last month it ceased the laundering work done to give jeans their various finishes. Once, more than 4 million pairs of jeans were made here each year by workers earning an average of $10-$12 per hour.
This spring Levi's will shutter its three remaining company-owned plants in Canada, completing the shift to contract production in China and other countries with far cheaper labor."

Goldilox:

This is hardly news at this juncture. The only tradesmen left in this country are printing press operators of the Bernanke money machine.

R Powell (1/9/04; 12:08:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 114991)
Hello silver !!
March Comex close $6.497, up 22.4

Goldilox, about that margin increase, today's one day move translates into a $1120 paper gain for the longs and an equivalent lose for the shorts. This is almost the entire $1350 old margin requirement. No tears here! I certainly do hope the shorts are all current with their margins.

If time allows, maybe the Wizard will post one of his charts for silver with lots of green Xs on it!! And a prediction from the crystal? The interday high on Feb. 5, 1998 was $7.38. Is it now in sight? I won't mention the old high from 1980....yet!
a very happy Rich
Rich

Goldilox (1/9/04; 12:06:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 114990)
Margin requirements
http://focus.comdirect.co.uk/en/detail/_pages/charts/main.html?sSymbol=SLV.FX1
thanks Rich-

$6.45 looks pretty good for a days work, eh?


USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc. (1/9/04; 12:04:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 114989)
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