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Welcome to the USAGOLD Gold Discussion Archives. The archives of this gold discussion forum are a treasure trove of information to educate investors about protecting their wealth through portfolio diversification with private gold ownership. The discussion forum also covers the wider issues of the past, present, and future role of gold in international monetary policy and the dynamics of the modern gold markets...

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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 5/9/2001
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

(Yesterday's Discussion.)

Black Blade (05/09/01; 23:06:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 53327)
It's bad, and it'll get worse
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/05/09/MN197841.DTL

TROUBLE AHEAD: Extra power for summer will fall well short of Gov. Davis' promise

Snippit:

California will get only one-third of the new power that Gov. Gray Davis promised to deliver by July 1, virtually ensuring a brutal summer of blackouts for the energy-strapped state. In fact, experts said, there are so many obstacles that the governor's plan was unrealistic to begin with.

Black Blade: What?! A politician that did not keep a promise! Shame. Does anybody really find this so difficult to believe? This article lays out a gloomy forecast. I'm not as optimistic.

Rockgrabber (05/09/01; 22:59:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 53326)
My Trail Guide
(Hand Raised) Sir, I have been out gardening, and thinking about your thoughts, thanks. Thanks for putting such a complicated study into such easy clear thoughts. (going back in my spot on the trail)

Black Blade (05/09/01; 22:42:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 53325)
Blackouts could cost Calif. almost $22 bln - study
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010509/n09543335.html

Snippit:

SACRAMENTO, Calif., May 9 (Reuters) - California's long, dark summer of blackouts could cost its economy almost $22 billion in lost productivity and chop as many as 135,000 jobs in the state, an industry association study released Wednesday shows. ``The longer this continues, the greater our risk of a job-killing recession gripping California.''

Black Blade: It is a foregone conclusion. Some should consider a gold lifeboat, while others should consider a gold Ark! This whole energy crisis and the link to gold is not unprecedented.

Black Blade (05/09/01; 22:32:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 53324)
California Blackout Season Begins
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010509/us/power_woes_31.html

Snippit:

SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) - California's newest season - blackout season - is here, and it arrived earlier than expected. State officials had anticipated a crunch in June, when air conditioners are cranked up for summer weather. But already, California has been hit with back-to-back blackouts on Monday and Tuesday, and the operators of the state's power grid barely scraped together enough energy to avoid blackouts Wednesday.

Black Blade: It's official, now it is a "Season" as if it is typical business as usual. Ya just gotta love the "spin" these days. Good is Bad, Bad is Good. Huh? Air Conditioners are expected to account for as much as 20% of energy use this summer. California just got a little taste the last couple of days. Rates are going up, more blackouts are coming, and there's no more energy to spare. The California economy is about to be rocked with much higher costs and lost productivity. So turn out the �er, Oh well the party's over.

Chris Powell (05/09/01; 22:27:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 53323)
CBS MarketWatch story cites Durban conference
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/756
To subscribe to GATA's dispatches
by email and get them immediately so
you don't have to go look for them,
send an email to:

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Chris Powell (05/09/01; 22:26:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 53322)
Dow Jones story about GATA's Durban conference
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/755
It's building....

To subscribe to GATA's dispatches
by email and get them immediately so
you don't have to go look for them,
send an email to:

gata-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Black Blade (05/09/01; 22:18:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 53321)
Bird Lovers Squawk at Wind-Energy Scheme
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010509/od/birds_dc_1.html

Snippit:

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands (Reuters) - Dutch bird lovers want the government to axe plans to build 200 wind turbines along a northern dam which they say will endanger the lives of thousands of coastal and migratory birds.

Black Blade: Introduction offer for the "Bird-O-Matic!" It slices, it dices, and it blends birds with one twirl of the blades! Wind power for the discerning Dutchman in the country that brought the World the comfort of wooden shoes and the miracle of Tulip Bulb investing. Yes, even in the US there's opposition to wind power because of the danger to the birds. It seems that birds, and notably birds of prey such as the California Condor have this knack for sailing into the blades of these wind blenders in such a way as the put any self-respecting frog to shame - in reference to the old frog in a blender joke. PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals - not People Eating Tasty Animals) has been a long time opponent. Wind power, like many of these birds, "fall short" of solving the energy crisis.

megatron (5/9/01; 22:06:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 53320)
Galearis
But it's not a monetary metal! :}

Galearis (5/9/01; 21:06:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 53319)
On silver, the newest Ted Butler article.....
http://www.gloomdoom.com/05-08-01.html
....speaks for itself

>>>>>snippet>>>>

To me, the rigging of the silver market for the past 50 years (particularly the past 15 years) is both bad news and good news. The good news is that such an epic distortion of the basic supply and demand of a major world commodity has created the opportunity of a lifetime. As you are aware, I've gone on record as predicting silver could hit $50 or $100 per ounce over the medium term. But I've done that only because an analyst is expected to spit out a number to summarize his research. In reality, on a long-term basis, those price projections do not reflect just how bullish I am. Rather than throw out an even higher number, and risk undermining my research as being unrealistic, let me talk about the long term in a manner other than price. Let's review the historical circumstance that dates back 5000 years.

With silver the world has had a vital, desired, and universally recognized commodity, whose total cumulative production was in the tens of billions of ounces. Suddenly, about 100 years ago, this commodity became vital to all sorts of indispensable industrial applications. We started to consume and use up silver. Published statistics indicate we have consumed over 90% of the total that the world has produced. The world has chewed up 5000 years of accumulated inventory in the past 50 years. Please understand and envision that 50 centuries' worth of accumulated production is gone forever. This is the most bullish factor that any world commodity ever experienced.

In 1942 the US government had almost six billion ounces of silver in its inventory. That silver is used up. The US mint must buy silver this year. Those billions of ounces went to industrial users and into coinage. Subsequently, much of the coinage has been melted down for industrial use. The fact that such big hoards of silver have disappeared means we are fast approaching a time when no more silver is available to industry at today's low prices. If the silver is no longer there to get because the strong demand has used it all up, the price must rise to ration the supply and alter the voracious demand. The more you analyze silver, the tighter the supply situation looks. It's bullish beyond our ability to grasp the total picture of this booming demand and thinning supply. On top of all this vanishing silver sits the biggest short sale of any commodity ever in relationship to its supply. Silver is literally a time bomb waiting to go off.

>>>>>>unsnippet>>>>>>

I am a believer and it WILL happen.......if there is an economy left to drive demand. If not, then all the gold and all the silver, and all the increasingly valueless currencies will be but a memory of wealth.

G.

Black Blade (5/9/01; 20:54:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 53318)
Natural Gas Prices Surge, Fueling Crisis
http://www.latimes.com/business/reports/power/lat_natgas010509.htm

Snippit:

Most power plants are fueled by natural gas, which was once cheap and abundant. High natural gas prices worry the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, which fears that the big markups could doom its plan to rein in California's electricity costs this summer since generators will still be able to pass on fuel costs.

Black Blade: Virtually all new power is NG-fired. So what is happening across the US including dark hot California? They are building NG-fired power plants. I guess - "If they build it, NG will come." No one ever accused the people and the politicians they elect of being rocket scientists. The ripples of the collapsing California economy will emanate outward to swallow up the US economy with a series of rolling shockwaves. A little gold insurance is in order.

USAGOLD (5/9/01; 19:31:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 53317)
Hi Leigh, your observation:
"There seem to be people in this world who can learn only through experience."

Good ole' Ben Franklin came up in conversation tonight. He echoes your excellent thought with this:

"Experience keeps a dear school yet a fool will learn in no other."

Isn't that what this Forum is all about? I have learned over many years of counselling people from all walks of life that the cost of preparation does not have to be the better part of one's assets, nor does it have to be the commitment of a lifetime, but the peace of mind which attends such preparation puts a smile on the face, confidence in the step and a quiet, settled disposition.

Thanks for being here, Leigh. My best to you and your family.

Leigh (5/9/01; 19:20:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 53316)
R Powell, Mr Gresham
I think people can't imagine what is coming because we here in the States don't have REALLY BAD things happen to us very often! For most of our lives, everything has gone along smoothly, and we think it always will. Plus, think back on predictions that never came true...Y2K, the earthquake near the Mississippi River (circa 1990), hurricanes that turned out to be short rain showers, and so on. People feel dumb when they prepare for the worst and then get fooled. So they've hardened their hearts to doomsayers (like us).

I wonder how people who have really suffered all kinds of calamities would react to our doomsaying. Would they be more likely to believe it? You know, many people who went through the Depression always seemed to fear that more bad times were right around the corner. Who else here remembers their grandma saving string and aluminum foil?

There seem to be people in this world who can learn only through experience. We bears just have more vivid imaginations!

R Powell (5/9/01; 18:44:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 53315)
Mr. Gresham (53313)
Concerning excitement
Agree, entirely. I often print out info for the wife and kids and attempt to get them to read. I've had some success, but limited.
You wrote, "Let it out here, and maintain a judicious reserve amongst those who will learn it soon enough by firsthand experience." I sometimes drop hints in conversation but very, very few notice anything. Outright conversation usually hits a brick wall. My old dad used to say, "Don't give advice. Wise men don't need it and fools will not heed it." Dad used to say that but I believe the author was Ben Franklin.
May I comment on your quote? Everyone will experience firsthand what is coming but, I'll quess, damn few will understand it until the media explain it to them. Lord only knows what that explanation will be?? Mostly blame, I'll bet, on someone, somewhere, for something??
Go Gold, Go Silver, Go Lease Rates, Go XAU, Go GATA!!
Rich

Trail Guide (5/9/01; 18:04:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 53314)
Comment

Hello ALL,

ORO made some interesting comments and I want to take issue with a few of them. I'll start with his first post. (also, a big welcome back to you sir!)

In your post ORO (5/9/01; 11:40:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 53294) FOA - NO LAW,,,,,,,,,,,

you write:

--------My take on Europe and the Euro are that they are desperate attempts to save European governments from competition among each other and the rest of the world, and of their trying to maintain the political hegemony of the small bureaucratic and political elite within Europe.------

No ORO, that view does not hold water. Europe, along with imput from many other non dollar nation states, has been working on currency union from the most early days of the "European Economic Unit (EEU). That one thrust alone dates back into the early 70s and even before that they have tried to match their economies by presenting united exchange rate mechanisms.

If their current objective is the object of a desperate attempt, you will have a hard time defining desperate over such a long period. My take and that of quite a few Europeans is that their union has been well planned yet very complicated to establish. Indeed, most any political analysis would describe their drive as remarkable given the enormous roadblocks the US / IMF / dollar faction has
thrown at them. Truly, if "political hegemony of their elite" was all they were after, they would have scrapped all dollar support at the Jamaica Accords conference. They could have easily matched the economic deterioration that action would have caused, against the cost of no longer supporting
the dollar. These countries inflated their own internal currency systems in order to maintain a world dollar standard. This alone flies in the face of hegemony on their part, both then and now.

You write:

--------The purpose of the Euro is to trap capital and trade within a political block controlled by this elite ----------- It has only to do with political power attempting a last ditch effort of governments of Europe against the forces of globalization and economic and technological progress.--------It has nothing to do with any of the following: political subservience to the US, the
cost of using the dollar for international trade, the dollar's wobbly past or future, trade efficiencies, free trade or liberty of any sort.---------

That's a pretty broad statement. Sounds like the history of the world from beginning to end. (smile) Yet, I can find nothing in European culture, ideals, nationalism or society in general that I do not find here in the US. Usually the motivation is functioning under a different name, though the effect is the same. Americans have in the past thrust their protocols upon the Old World culture. In this light, some of us think this shouldn't effects a Euro policy response. Hello? Good perception comes with understanding and loose observations are useless when seen using tunnel vision.

Consider:

------We Americans trap world capital through dollar hegemony and call it "Americans for free trade" ------- We shutter at the thought of Euros in our pocket, as a second currency, and would impose any amount of foreign exchange controls to limit such. But we are very open to globalization at any time. ---- Trade efficiencies are great as long as they favor our lifestyle above other nations.
----- Further, our liberty is a good thing, but the liberty of others is unimportant if it interferes with our national interest. --------

Still, if the Europeans are trying to attain our same position in international affairs, it's seen as their elite power block holding on? No, that doesn't clean the laundry either.

Perhaps the difference of perception is seen on our last Trail Walk; --- As such the euro is important in that it challenges our (dollar) hegemony-----. This alone, ORO, is enough for us to structure for the outcome. Whether one can see the political motivations correctly or not, their Euro
will re-balance the world of currencies and have an outsized effect on the US.

You write,,,,,,,,,,

--------The legal provisions you talk of will not destroy or prevent a future gold banking system that might compete with the fiat insanity. It will destroy the countries that sign on to it, which are likely not to include the US and most of Asia unless taken over politically by EU influences (which
are not that strong there). -------------

Sir,
First of all, you should stay within the context of my discussion with Econoclast. We were presenting positions, not launching ICBMs. The position I presented is valid in limited circumstances that would include a fallen dollar. This has been discussed by others "overthere", among other criteria. You speak of fiat insanity? I point out to you and ET and Journeyman that hundreds of millions of us have been living with such a currency for some time. Insanity is a bit
cheap of a description when the world has endured wars and multitude human infliction for thousands of years. If this whole transition fails, we will still live out our lives with fiat, like it or not.

When you state the following:

-------The attachment of collateral to gold is innate in the action of trading gold. Without that, there is no trade in gold possible at all. All trade involves the creation of a debt, at least temporarily. The debt may be secured by the items traded, but transactions must involve a debt. Transactions also must involve a contract. Ownership of anything is title, either assumed through possession, or
documented. A system that does not allow collateral backing a contract denominated in gold is a system that does not allow gold to trade, and endangers title to gold not in possession. Doubtless, the purpose of such law would be to allow governments to confiscate gold held in custody (not in
possession) if the attempts to prevent monetary use of gold fail.-----------

You are right, it is innate to this current fraud of a dollar gold market. I know you are thinking in terms of the current dollar gold market function because the rest of this thrust sounds like it is right out of our current bullion bankers notes. Both past and present and is completely based upon a continuation of the same. We have no intention of traveling that road again.

Further you write:

------It is another attempt by EU governments to block the exits from a future Europe they imagine they can control. If implemented successfully, it will be Europe that will be destroyed by the absence of an efficient credit system keyed to effective gold denomination of debt. --------

The world has traveled this road before and failed to control it's controllers. Gold as official money is dead at the starting blocks, my friend. Send your best salesman around the world to sell that position for a living. Most certainally he will die of old age or lack of commissions before anyone will deal with him. If gold debt is what you strive for, then carry your torch and do your best. Just
don't ask the common man to suffer wealth loss again while we try to do it one more time.

Further by your hand:

---It would mean that the only interest rate available would be the innately incorrect one set by monetary authorities.------

Where is this at odds with a functioning fiat Euro that's controlled by the ECB? I will tell you, it is set with one/half an eye on the Euro price of FreeGold. Far different than the current world rate being played off a failing currencies economy and set by a paper gold market.

ORO,
All of the rest of your argument is an endorsement for gold debt in our constant fiat world. It has failed before and will fail again if allowed to be mingled into a political arena. The world's first gold coin was never money and yet was a perfect trade for another good. No debt was involved then at the time of trade and should not be now. The hard money school that has lead us down the gold / money path never stopped to consider that banking and gold do not and cannot coexist without corruption. We have learned from them. We know now what not to do!

Explain your position in point by point fashion and it will not amount to a "sellable conclusion". That's because the Old World culture chooses not to close a gold window again. We will, indeed, see how this all plays out as "time will prove all things". I will own physical gold and scoff at your bankers pleas for "one more try".

As always, thank you very much for your impute and opinion. (smile)
TrailGuide

Mr Gresham (5/9/01; 17:23:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 53313)
Excitement
http://www.bearforum.com/cgi-bin/bbs.pl?read=143984
A lot of excitement among da Bears today!

Oro -- great to see you here today. I'll have to read yours over several times; my brain fuzzes out as soon as I read those SDR and old $42 book prices -- and starts trying to convert everything to current terms. Looks like you've named just about everything, though...

We really are an excitable bunch, eh? The sense of anticipation is carried in more places than here, of course. Based upon the idea: "They've had to expend so much manipulation power to grind POG down lower, but as the base firms, a smaller and smaller spike will start a short squeeze." The anticipation is that we may learn sooner rather than later how that "small spike" theory plays out in reality.

Y'know, the day it all pops will be so ordinary in every other way. Everyone else will walk around in their normal activities. There will just be the odd few of us walking around as in a parallel world, not unlike the cat with some canary feathers stuck on its whiskers, but no one around us will know, care, or understand what's percolating through our tired old brains.

The reason is that we've been living in a parallel dimension these past years, "keeping the real world books" for everyone else, and waiting for the games distorting them to revert back toward sustainable economic reality. Not that we welcome the pain, but it's the unreality and lack of principle that has already booked a lot of hurt for those around us.

The news will be bad; so my advice is, just be sure you're not seen as the first bearer of that bad news to many who are close to you. You may be associated with it forever, in their minds. In a way, this Internet anonymity is both the provoker of further discovery than we ever thought possible, and our protector from blathering it all over our family, friends, and neighbors. (My advice to myself:)Let it out here, and maintain a judicious reserve amongst those who will learn it soon enough by firsthand experience.

Horatio (5/9/01; 17:02:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 53312)
Anglo
Anglo splits on a big up day,did they know something we didn.t know.Management don't split stocks if they think thier going down or if the stock is in a weak position.
You always split into strength.

Randy (@ The Tower) (5/9/01; 16:49:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 53311)
First Fisher, now Roseboro?
Almost looks as if they are battening down the hatches at the Treasury, using some salty ol' dogs with some serious sea legs under them.

ORO (5/9/01; 16:41:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 53310)
HBM - dollar as we know it
Most definitely, the dollar will not survive as we know it. There will indeed be an inflationary collapse as the trade settlement system is saved but our monetary savings lose most of their value just like an internet stock once the shorts have covered and the stock options grants vest (the last of demand disappears just as large fresh supply comes to market - the classic crowded trade).

HBM, the dynamic for the "strong" dollar is reversing, however, there is still quite a hole in the dollar supply to the market, which is quickly being filled. The fill time remaining is no more than 2 years, and likely only one. We should start seeing the moves as the markets start discounting the "event" - when they realize it is coming.

The Fed should give one more % and start pulling rates up upon the first losses in the dollar (a.k.a. "too late").

My main beef with the Euro fiat + limited gold trade is that it is presented as being a superior international trading structure when nothing but political support stands behind it, and the whole of known monetary economics stands against it. At least the dollar is leveraged to gold - recognizing an anchor, what is the Euro system going to do without any anchor at all? Use the hobbled "cash only" gold exchange rate to Euro as a motivator by "shaming" the Euro as its exchange rate drops? Did it ever shame Nixon and Carter to see the dollar go up to over $100 and then to $800+? Why would anyone think the ECB and the EU would be any less flagrant in disregard of the public savings (such as they are - mostly as a result of the prior inflation)?

Hill Billy Mitchell (5/9/01; 16:05:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 53309)
Canuck @ 53272 - Envisioning the world in another decade

Sir Canuck

What fine pouring out of the soul! Your post was, IMO, of the best type: - Thought provoking and penetrating. May I impose by using a few of your thoughts for launching pads?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Canuck � "�envisioning the world in another decade�boomers into retirement�retirement and health care costs will be enormous�fewer energy resources�aging population�the end�a debt so massive that cascading cross-defaults will swallow everything�

Comments � Envisioning indeed! The hardest thing for economic theorists (I consider myself to be one) is to be able to superimpose microeconomic experience over and into macroeconomic projections. Let me explain. The highly technical economists involved in macroeconomics give us their conclusions that they derive from data that is not readily accessible to me. If I could access the data I would not be able to properly read it or put it into some sort of meaningful format. I leave that to the macroeconomists. I do not ignore their data nor their conclusions but I have a built-in distrust simply because I cannot verify the integrity of their data.

My way works for me. I observe real life happenings on the microeconomic level and superimpose my observations over and into the macroeconomic level. As example, in 1974 my father turned 55 and was given an offer he couldn't refuse: -- retire now and get full pension benefits � the company will also pay you an amount equal to what you would receive in social security if you were 62 and when you turn 62 social security will take over. In addition your health and life insurance (the best) will continue until you are 65, at which time Medicare will take over; however the company will continue to pay the supplemental premiums to cover that which Medicare does not pay. Sixteen years later, my father and mother are 71 and look to live quite a good while longer (not without the exorbitant medical expenditures that they have been guaranteed). Next year my brother will be 55 years of age and has similar options to that of my father. The big difference is that my brother along with myself (also 55 in the year 2002, we are not twins) are baby boomers. Let us call our parents the first wave and the generation of baby boomers the 2nd wave. One important item, which I'll bet you a fiat to a donut, is that the macroeconomic demographers have not considered the fact that many of these baby boomers in unison with many of their parents will not be paying in FICA and Medicare for as much as ten years prior to "normal retirement" age. Additionally, my guess is that, they will cease to be contributing to the GNP as much as 10 years earlier than the demographers calculate. What am I saying? These jobs are not being replaced. They are being eliminated by either technology or exportation. They are replaced with hamburger frying jobs at McDonald's etc., and the number of grandchildren available to fry these hamburgers for their parents and grandparents is becoming disproportionately smaller as the process unfolds.

My point is this. Even if Greenspan and Co. can somehow magically hold things together for a few years, the so-called surpluses in the so-called trust funds is going to disappear much more quickly than the demographers are telling us. When these trust fund surpluses reverse the Federal Deficits will accelerate and Harry Figgie will be vindicated. The FOMC will have to double its staff, Treasury bond rates will go through the clouds and hyperinflation will have arrived, further changes in government bookkeeping to the contrary.

Not to mislead, I would say that I expect a collapse of the USD long before this scenario unfolds. Alan Greenspan will probably be long gone. He will either be dead or will have become a cosmopolitan like Charles Volker and Panda. I fully expect for gold to be vindicated within the next year or two (three at the most); but if I am wrong and the USD does hold up until 2005 the baby boomers will have followed through in like manner as their parents and will have destroyed the dollar by ceasing to produce to soon while accelerating and continuing consumption too quickly and too long. There is no hope for the USD. The Euro has only to wait in the wings. We, the boomers, will destroy our own economy and currency without any help from the Europeans and they know it. ORO, Please do not try to tell me that the USD, as the world knows it, has a chance of survival.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Canuck � "�the inevitable�paper will have no value�tangible, hard, physical assets�in good times and bad�represent wealth

Comments � Sir Canuck, in so few words you have perfectly described the end result of the above "baby boomer" scenario and what one must do to prepare for this inevitability.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Canuck � "�This will happen slowly�

Comments � Sir, you are correct, for it has been happening slowly since at least 1911, but the end is very near and when "thunder is heard in the night", the "slow happening", will blast off the launching pad. When one is asleep and is awakened by the thunder he has already missed the first warning from the lightening. The "perfect storm" is soon to follow. If the Storm shelter has not been built prior to the appearance of the lightening, it will be too late to try to build, but Joe Kernen would not know of this possibility.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Canuck �"�I have begun�to wean myself from fiat�this may take years�accumulate

Comments � Yes, it may take years. This is the very excuse that some use for not accumulating, that it may take years. You are among the few fools to whom Joe Kernen has been referring. Anything you do prior to the arrival of the storm will be better than buying treasury bills as per Joe Kernen's recommendation.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Canuck �"�If governments self-destruct I will not be reliant on them in any way, shape or form.

Comments � If governments do not self-destruct, hopefully, you and I will not be reliant on them in any way, shape or form, save for defense from invading armies. Oh how I hate subsidies. I may have to give up fast food, na!

In summation gold will be vindicated long before 2012, the so-called year of the baby boomer.

Very respectfully,

HBM

Carl H (5/9/01; 16:03:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 53308)
Bush appointee to Treasury
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010509/n092970.html
Sounds like another one from inside the Cabal. Thoughts anyone?

ausome (5/9/01; 15:57:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 53307)
Chase M were the big losers from Centaur's demise
Chase were Centaur's biggest creditor because of their forward selling regime. Chase has lost about 120 million on Centaur's hedge book. They apparently allowed them to continue trading when they knew Centaur was insolvent. In the end Centaur was selling forward well below the cost of production.

ORO (5/9/01; 15:51:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 53306)
Tree in the Forest - 53252 - worth alot till you try selling it
Ashanti's hedge book is part of a crowded trade, just like tech and internet stocks were in early 2000. As they indicate, their book could not be liquidated or fully counter-hedged in the event of a discontinuous and illiquid market. It is characteristic of a crowded trade that realizing the profits accrued to date is impossible for all large players.

It is the reason for large astute players easing in and out of the markets gradually, or if they missed the opportunity to exit, adding to a "bad" position they can not exit if they can thus affect the market in their favor. Furthermore, the astute willingly shed some of the profits to hedge against a step wise change in the market against them.

CoBra(too) (5/9/01; 15:37:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 53305)
The usual curbs on excess of 2 $ Limit Moves on POG ...
... seem at least to be waived today and survived the day. Is it the Joe Gutnik's 18 ton shorts in his Centaur hedge book, the Durban GATA Conference or just the fact that the TPTB are losing control of an uncontrolable (unprintable! gee!) demand of physical metal (Au-metal!), which is not in abundance for paper (fiat)- disregarding the annual shortfall- anyway ...
And I personally don't care, when a 4-5 $ spike in POG triples the volume in mining stocks and sends them 10 to 20% north in a day - reminding me of the notion of a a DJII north of 100.000 in order to stay even.

Anyway, this little move in POG heralds the "leverage" to be expected of a big move - as long as your Au-assets are either above ground or unencumbered (- here's a question mark as to availability ... after default of the system as such, or other, though equal distressing 'curbs' in production of reality-?) ... and so what? FOA would say, or better vis a vis what value - true!

Got me? Got you! ... Got gold?
cb2

ORO (5/9/01; 15:01:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 53304)
Mr Gresham - Who's mistake
My opinion, not supported by anecdotal or statistical evidence directly available from the horse's mouth, is that the ECB member central banks had been egged on by particular EU banks, English and US banks to lend gold at an artificially low set of interest rates that are competitive with dollar rates when viewed from the historical book values of gold on CB books, which was anywhere from $35 to SDR 35 ($42-48), thus at $340 gold, a 1% rate looked like 7%-10% (at $48, and $35 respectively), and at $260 it was 5.4% to 7.5%. The moment ECB member banks moved to mark-to-market regimes, the book value changed. They had to do just that because the Maastricht treaty prerequisites on government deficits and debt were not met without that marginal assistance from booking the profits from marking gold from the historical official price to the actual market price.

The error was clear to those in the private sector (and probably in US officialdom too), and they proceeded to use this as (1) a cheap source of funds, (2) a gold price suppression pool like the infamous old London Gold Pool, (3) a lender of last resort credit facility providing last ditch (and moving progressively closer first ditch), (4) forcing a below market interest rate on gold that caused the classic gold credit expansion boom and with it the classic inflation of gold and the rise of prices denominated in gold. This artificially low gold value (purchasing power) induced people to hoard gold and collect gold denominated contracts and indirect gold ownership, and cash them in (bad money driving out the good when they trade at par). That has forced the banking system and the ECB members to provide upwards of 1000 tonnes a year from reserves in order to keep the supply of physical gold to the markets and avoid (a) illiquidity of the paper markets because of illiquidity of the physical market, (b) breaking of par between the paper gold liabilities in the market and gold, (c) the requisite "bank run" that occurs under threat of a break of par.

The classic credit expansion boom in gold banking will result in a classic credit contraction of the system, complete with empty vaults, multiple lawsuits, and bankrupt financial and industrial institutions, as well as scandal in government and some central bankers giving politicos tours of the empty vaults, or showing them piles of someone else's bullion.

Was it a mistake? By some, surely. FOA claims that it was at least in part intentional, which it very well may be.

Old Yeller (05/09/01; 14:26:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 53303)
The showdown continues...
http://www.prudentbear.com/boards/user/non-frames/message.asp?forumid=4&messageid=45837&threadid=45818

We at the forum all know this is the unspoken issue of the ECB stance.I wonder if this issue will become more prominent after May 15.

ausome (05/09/01; 14:12:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 53302)
POG sliding in Asia
POG down 40 cents minutes after opening. Don't get too excited about the NY rise.

R Powell (05/09/01; 14:12:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 53301)
Two fer day
We missed a hat trick as the lease rates were down just a hair. However, POG was up more than a hair, +4.9 on the June contract and the XAU was also up many hairs, 3.68 points according to CNBC's 4:00 report.
Both gold and mining stocks did receive notice on the people's stock market television channel, at least during the hour I've been watching. A Greg Welden of Welden Money Moniter stated that he believes this a breakout move that may continue toward $300/ounce. Mining stocks, according to G-E reports, have been trading in very unusually heavy volume. Interesting, the only negative outlook at the neighboring castle, is from Don_L who sees this as a blow off top with POG looking to retreat soon. I hope he's wrong!
With the XAU and lease rates as confirmation, IMHO this just might be the end of a long, long gold/silver bear.
Wouldn't that be fun!!
Rich

Randy (@ The Tower) (05/09/01; 14:03:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 53300)
Blowing up the balloon: Federal Reserve adds funds to banking system reserves
The Fed added $707 million in permanent reserves through the outright purchase of Treasury securities for the System account.

Further, the Fed also added $3 billion in temporary reserves via overnight repurchase agreements.

The market in federal funds was trading below the FOMC target, and yet they pump up the volume. Take heed. Diversify into gold because this transition shall be bigger than your paper accounts can absorb.

Chris Powell (05/09/01; 13:54:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 53299)
New questions for Fed chairman and treasury secretary
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/754
Will you ask your congressmen to get
answers?

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by email and get them immediately so
you don't have to go look for them,
send an email to:

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Hill Billy Mitchell (05/09/01; 13:54:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 53298)
JMB @ # 53289
Sir,

I too listened to the exchange on CNBC this morning.

Although I do not nor have ever agreed with Joe K. concerning PM's I do enjoy him and "the brain", and "Harvard Boy".

Let me say this about Joe. He is not a hypocrite like most of the "heads" on CNBC. He has not vacillated on issues and has never wavered on his position concerning Gold. He looks at metals from a different perspective than do we. He looks at it from the recent past performance of metals. He only talks about what has happened to those who invested in gold and silver since circa 1981. He has a very strong case. He is preaching to a choir in a different church than the church that we attend. I have told several idiots that they should sell their silver and take their losses because they were holding it for only one reason, to break even if silver ever again reached the price at which they bought. These people bought high and that sort of mentality reveals itself on the other end, as they never sell low. The converse is also true, as there are those who buy low but would never consider selling high. (Not referring to those who hold a portion of PM's, myself included, as an insurance policy against fiat destruction.)

Now do not get the wrong impression. I do not consider Joe K. to be overly endowed with either wisdom or understanding in this area. Quite to the contrary, rather I consider him to be an honest fool. He thinks that because he is right about what has happened to those who tried to make a short-term profit in PM's that he has covered the whole subject and that there is nothing further, no other reason to have possession of PM's than that of the short-term profit motive.

His arrogance in that his position covers all circumstances and motives does a disservice only to the idiots who take what he has to offer as the absolute gospel. He does not hurt us in any way. He helps us in that he aids our cause during accumulation. Joe K. has a special calling. His calling is to be negative. He never has anything in the way of advice or criticism that does not have a negative (I told you so) slant to it. He never gives any advice as to what would be a wise move going forward. He will always talk about what happened in the recent past, i.e. gold vs. Treasuries.

What I like about "the brain", Joe K. and "Harvard Boy" is the clear disdain they have for the rest of the CNBC prostitutes. The almost hate themselves because of their association with these prostitutes because although they do not consider themselves to be prostitutes, they cannot get away from the fact that they work for the same pimps.

As for your swearing, I would classify your post as PG rather than PG-13 and certainly not the kind that would require any janitorial work. The only bad part is it does encourage those inclined to push to the point of testing the rules of the forum. What you have done is certainly not as close to the edge as my forays into the religious realm (smile). When we skirt around the fringes like this what we find is, not how rigid MK is, but rather, how gracious he is. If we put constraints upon ourselves he will not usually get too out of sorts. Problem is, when he does get out of sorts we will have, I fear, no warning, as he does not play games. The way I try to constrain myself is by trying to limit my posts that have a religious slant to Sundays.

Very respectfully,

HBM

Chris Powell (5/9/01; 13:13:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 53297)
GATA sweeps South Africa on eve of Durban conference
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/753
A nationwide radio interview, and AngloGold
decides to attend.

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by email and get them immediately so
you don't have to go look for them,
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ORO (5/9/01; 12:53:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 53296)
Buena Fe - O'Neil is right
http://www.yardeni.com/public/shtb_c.pdf
It should be no surprise that nations and states do not trade at all. People trade as individuals and as organizations, such as are corporations.

The involvement of governments in trade is largely dependent on successful capture by its partner banks of the transactional and savings volumes of the population at large. Small governments of small geographies have not managed to do so successfully and have found the least bit of inflation to cause a mass transition from contract and transaction in their currency to alternate contract denominations, be they a price index, dollars, gold, or what have you. As a result of these denominations, contracts and transactions slip outside government's tax nets and increase the deficits that these governments must finance through inflation. Once started, it is difficult to stop, and rarely does the political system remain unchanged after the monetary system hyperinflates.

The wrong portion of the proposition of the trade deficit hawks is that the US government - and thus the nation - owes the dollars to the collectors of trade surpluses. Where that had been the case through the cold war and the period just after, the current credit system is transitioning to private dollar debt of individuals and corporations and a trend towards massive shedding of liabilities of governments including "entitlement" programs, bank liability insurance, and most prominent of which is the attempt of governments to extricate themselves out of debt; particularly of external debt.

Further error is compounded upon the initial one by the supposition that the US economy is responsible for providing all of the dollars purchasing power. The dollar enjoys a substantial premium in its value arising from its historical and current use for trade settlement and denomination of contracts in the world at large. The fact that foreigners owe so many dollars, somewhat more than they are likely to collect for payment, is one of the main reasons the dollar is used today for trade and has been used for trade through the 80s and 90s. It is the performance of the dollar debtors that creates the dollar's value. These debtors include many outside the US who are paying rather higher interest rates for the dollar debts they owe than we do.

The outstanding amounts of dollars owed by debtors outside the US become a heavier burden as they attempt to pay down their debts, since during a period of net foreign dollar debt declines the independent supply of the foreign dollar market to itself falls dramatically, thus forcing the foreign dollar debtor to come to the US for his dollar revenue, from which he will extract the dollar cash flow that will pay down his debt. Because of this, Americans will be provided with lower prices for imports, and foreign dollar debtors will find their credit ratings down and their interest rates up.

The dollar trade deficit would grow so long as foreign dollar interest rates rise and import prices into the US from countries where the dollar debtors are concentrated continue to fall. The US trade deficit is more the result of a pull from abroad than a push from the US. It is a result of dollar lending to Asian entrepreneurs of 1.2 trillion dollars (bank lending alone) by 1998, 1 tillion since 1984 (including the interest accrued and not yet paid, the sum is about 1.5 trillion at the 98 peak.

The purchasing power of the dollar is largely a result of the fact that the foreign dollar debt bears an interest rate double and triple that paid by US dollar debtors. Thus a cumulative $3 trillion net US debt pays its holders less than the $1 trillion debt of emerging markets. This leaves a dollar deficit that is filled by the trade deficit.

Contrary to common theory, trade does not balance with capital flows. The dollar support mechanism is rather obvious on page 2 of the URL above (IMF trade data). The one sided portion of the global trade balance is the result of paydowns of accrued interest and principal balances by dollar debtors selling product to dollar holders (most notably the US, but also Europe and lately Japan).

On an individual basis, Americans and US corporations are indebted, but Americans are mostly indebted to themselves (many own enough financial assets to cover their debts completely or a couple of times over). They simply arbitrage tax rates through housing debt. US corporations also made large investments in inventory management and supply chain management and have reduced substantially the time it takes to get from an idea to the first sale of product, a great advantage.

If Europe continues to expand and deepen regulation (as it has of late) while the US simplifies and thins regulation, the advantage would play in the favor of US industries despite higher dollar exchange rates.

Trail Guide (5/9/01; 12:07:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 53295)
Comment
ORO, everyone,

I was going to comment more before moving on with some of Another's recent political thoughts. But it looks like I have said enough to warm the fires (grin)!

OK,,, ORO let's talk some on this forum. (smile)

Be back later
TrailGuide

ORO (5/9/01; 11:40:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 53294)
FOA - NO LAW
FOA, I have been working on a broad monetary article intended for posting here, hoping to touch on many points you have addressed and many you have not. The discussion of the past few days, has prompted me to break silence now rather than when the article is complete.

My take on Europe and the Euro are that they are desperate attempts to save European governments from competition among each other and the rest of the world, and of their trying to maintain the political hegemony of the small bureaucratic and political elite within Europe. The purpose of the Euro is to trap capital and trade within a political block controlled by this elite. It has nothing to do with any of the following: political subservience to the US, the cost of using the dollar for international trade, the dollar's wobbly past or future, trade efficiencies, free trade or liberty of any sort. It has only to do with political power attempting a last ditch effort of governments of Europe against the forces of globalization and economic and technological progress. And the last stand for Europe's sclerotic government assisted industry, inflexible trade unions, and abominable and costly bureaucracy of Brussels and of the various capitals of Europe. It is a last stand of socialism and the EU power politics elite.

Your last Trail posting is a perfect demonstration of these intentions. The legal provisions you talk of will not destroy or prevent a future gold banking system that might compete with the fiat insanity. It will destroy the countries that sign on to it, which are likely not to include the US and most of Asia unless taken over politically by EU influences (which are not that strong there). The attachment of collateral to gold is innate in the action of trading gold. Without that, there is no trade in gold possible at all. All trade involves the creation of a debt, at least temporarily. The debt may be secured by the items traded, but transactions must involve a debt. Transactions also must involve a contract. Ownership of anything is title, either assumed through possession, or documented. A system that does not allow collateral backing a contract denominated in gold is a system that does not allow gold to trade, and endangers title to gold not in possession. Doubtless, the purpose of such law would be to allow governments to confiscate gold held in custody (not in possession) if the attempts to prevent monetary use of gold fail.

It is another attempt by EU governments to block the exits from a future Europe they imagine they can control. If implemented successfully, it will be Europe that will be destroyed by the absence of an efficient credit system keyed to effective gold denomination of debt. It would mean that the only interest rate available would be the innately incorrect one set by monetary authorities. It is completely impossible for central planners to know what the appropriate interest rate for any money they control could be. The concept of a "better managed" fiat currency is impossible. A fiat currency can not eliminate the presence of a non-economic motivation for its own existence. No depth and thoroughness of study of economics can ever reveal to the would be monetary manager what the markets would do without him and without his currency. His existence alone is enough to eliminate the possibility of efficient trade. Why would anyone trust a monetary system without par to any particular good?

Trade is done good for good for mutual benefit of the traders involved. Money is just the means to transact trade over time and space. 90-95% of trade is transacted over time, with the final good B traded for good A being realized even centuries in the future. Gold has forever been the most efficient medium of such transactions. The value of gold comes primarily from its use as the monetary intermediary for these transactions over time, the longer the time, the greater the need for gold to be the monetary medium. The legal provisions you imply can only have the intention (but not likely the effect) of preventing the use of gold in trade, attempting to eliminate the use of gold for bearing interest. EVERYTHING bears an interest rate. Interest is more fundamental to economics than trade. The interest on money derives from the interest of goods over goods, not the other way round. Interest is embedded in all contracts and in all transactions over time, it is the innate result of there being a future. It is the discount of future goods to present goods. NO MORE and NO LESS. Gold bears an interest by its very nature as a good desired by humans. Its use in trade requires it to bear an explicit contracted interest.

By prohibiting gold from bearing interest you are thinking that people would not suffer from the dilutive effect of gold credit on gold values. The thought is wrong because it does not consider that gold credit is extended and owned only at a market rate � unless governments try to change that rate through central bank intervention or through taxation and regulation. When gold interest rates are set by the markets, they allow market participants to charge an interest rate that they expect will compensate them for possible dilutive effects of credit extension. Therefore, undue credit expansion that actually causes dilutive effects on gold values CAN NOT HAPPEN over any length of time. Gold credit in a free market is a cyclical affair that includes expansion as well as contraction and is caused by the appearance of investment opportunities (their pursuit, and subsequent disappearance), shortages, abundances, and the general need of the markets for a stable monetary unit in the face of unavoidable error in prediction of the future by market participants.

It is governments, and they alone, that can and do manipulate interest rates and credit quantities for purposes at odds with the interest of the bulk of market participants and who cause expanded credit without allowing people to hedge against the dilutive effect. They do this through the imposition of government bodies to regulate and intermediate in the monetary system. They do this in order to gain control of the process of allocating accumulated purchasing power for the expressed purpose of favoring government, and for government officials to sell favors in the market place, where government can now decide to whom purchasing power would flow.

The extent to which governments make use of these tools of power is also the extent they damage the economies of their people. Central planners, whether well intentioned or not (and there is not the slightest reason to suppose that EU central planners, among them the ECB, have any honorable and beneficial intentions other than for themselves), are incapable of producing optimal decisions. They must always reduce billions of decisions into one central one. Inherent to this is that they will be wrong decisions no matter what they are, and far beyond just being wrong, they must be destructive of the interests of most people, and result in reduced or negative real long term growth of the economies they control. In time, the more planned an economy is, the worse its performance.

The future you suggest is worse for the gold holder and the fiat trader both, than the present.

Therefore, your suggested "protocol" can not be but an intellectual musing of derelict monetary boobs such as occupy the higher reaches of central banking and politics, and at church altars and mosque towers. Such laws were last successfully implemented by the complete confiscation of gold. This is FDR all over again. And it is Napoleon all over again. I am again astounded by the blindness you exhibit regarding the nature of money and banking, and can only assume you are fostering the opinion that stands in the obvious middle ground between Islamic tenet and the desires of government bureaucracy. Even Islamic oil royalty will see that the laws envisioned would eliminate the bulk of the trade value of gold they have accumulated (if the law were to succeed in international implementation, which it will not). They would also see that it is just another form of obvious "punishment" for the over-leveraged gold banking system in the political sphere of Europe by canceling their liabilities and enforcing their claims. We have been there before, and we have seen the results. They are destructive of all participants.

I sincerely wish to warn you, FOA and Another, that the relative powers of governments to do what you suggest are gone. Government's desire to "have the pie" has matured to having a claim against part of it. Governments (politicians and bureaucrats) have learned that a declining share of a growing pie is better than complete possession of a disappearing pie. The old industrial "economies of scale" and the huge physical nature of investments of the past are being replaced everywhere with economies of association, of knowledge, design, and innovation. These are devoid of borders and can be moved quickly if not at will outside the reach of governments that wish to grab these new assets of the modern economy. The ability of governments to "farm" the economy started to decline in the late 1960s, it has been declining further and more rapidly with the decline in the steepness of the close by computer power cost curve and the rise of the far end of the computing power curve, which has turned from a gradual function to a near stepwise function. Advantages of size derive from the ability to organize more rapidly than competitors, enemies, and tax avoiders; which depends on the advantageous and quicker access and understanding of greater information volumes. This advantage is maintained by the relative cost of having an order of magnitude higher computing and communications power. That relative cost has been rising by a factor of 4 with every new microprocessor cycle, with the next step up over the current generation investment plans (cost $13 billion per each unit) � tentatively planned for 2008-2010 by leading chip makers � being so costly as to require some 5% of US GDP for each production unit. This cost is completely outside the reach of any one government, and must be shared with the broad free markets internationally, therefore eliminating the last major advantage of organizational size and with it the future of corporatism and the corporate state hierarchies that grew with it. Large corporations are attempting still to enhance and extend the longevity of their franchises, by merging and by adopting a more horizontal peer to peer network like structure that could allow the benefits of further specialization of their staff. But even in the most successful of these, the access to a shared broad pool of highly differentiated globally available expertise - available to all market participants, is badly lacking because of the desire for a proprietary rather than shared expertise that provides competitive advantage. The quick and temporary self-assembly of specialist groups on a per project basis that is possible in a free-wheeling global networked economy, is not at all possible for a company trying to maintain a unique franchise, and well outside the possibility of government control or assistance.

The only means governments will have in order to extort resources from this global talent pool is through maintenance of a monetary and banking system that is both attractive enough in performance to keep these people using it for savings investment and transactions, and available for governments to obtain a share of the income and assets of these people by having the banking and transactions records available. Too high a tax rate, through inflation or through direct taxation would eliminate the use of this system in favor of a parallel unofficial and networked system that would be closed to government awareness as well as government access.

If contractual gold is made impossible, as you suggest is the intention of the Nabobs of central banking and politics, then it will be silver, or platinum, or palladium, or rhodium, or a hidden gold title unit that would fill the shoes of contract gold and overtake some or all of gold's role as a store of wealth, a money for time transactions of trade.

Finally, liquid tradable wealth is a monetary role. Disconnection of gold from official monetary roles can only destroy the fiat moneys and the economies on which they are imposed. Leaving gold without the realm of contracts and debts eliminates its utility as savings and the medium of transactions, because it will eliminate the possibility of enjoying the conduct of all of these in a single unit with only one financial component and one interest rate, putting us in the world of fiat currencies and (a quite impossible) "cash only" gold, leaves no mechanism for fixing the broad range of economic transactions to set quantities of gold (done through financial and trade contracts). Therefore, people will maneuver out of gold and to all alternative metals that provide contract enforcement. This would NOT put gold at $30,000 ($3,000 in current dollar purchasing power) but would put silver at $300 the PGMs at $6,000, Rhodium at $20,000 and gold at $100 (current "real" dollars). Gold may spike high on the way, but as awareness of the approach of your "legal protocol" permeates through the markets, they will move away from gold and towards alternative metals or absorb gold into forms in which it can be contracted.

In order to achieve the desired high and stable gold value there are two choices: an official monetary system that is all gold, or no official money at all. To avoid government temptations to meddle, your international law should disallow governments to have currencies at all, and should disallow government maintenance or guarantee of bank liabilities. The system you suggest will destroy itself, the gold owners of today, and the prospects for Arabians and their progeny. That they would promote this is on par with Palestinian support of Iraq, the loser's choice.

schippi (5/9/01; 10:31:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 53293)
Golden Breakout
http://www.SelectSectors.com/agpm70.gif
Select Gold Hourly Chart up to Noon.

Gandalf the White (5/9/01; 10:14:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 53292)
Message from Felix the Cat
http://us.tom.com/Archive/2001/5/8-89219.html
Forum puts HK in spotlight
china daily
Tuesday May 08, 2001

HONG KONG: Hong Kong is all set for the opening of a global economic forum to be attended by President Jiang Zemin, Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra and former US leader Bill Clinton. (<;-) Now we know what he is doing!)

Among those expected to speak at this year's Fortune Global Forum are Vice-Premier Qian Qichen, Minister of the State Development and Planning Commission Zeng Peiyan, Foreign Trade and Economic Co-operation Minister Shi Guangsheng, Minister of Information Industry Wu Jichuan and People's Bank of China Governor Dai Xianglong.

Other forum speakers include Shinawatra and chief executives of Microsoft Corp, Yahoo and Dell Computer group.

Hong Kong SAR Executive Council convener Leung Chun-ying hailed the forum as the perfect opportunity for the city to showcase its strengths and latest developments on a global stage.

"Hosting such a large-scale, star-studded international conference is a very good opportunity for Hong Kong to let international political and business leaders know about the latest developments in Hong Kong nearly four years after the handover," he said.

"I believe this Hong Kong edition of the Forum will be a big success as foreign guests can personally experience Hong Kong's vitality, see its strengths and witness what has been happening," he added.

Up to 3,000 police officers will be deployed around the Hong Kong Convention and Exhibition Centre for the two-day forum to insure security, organizers said.

The forum will kick off at 5:45 pm today in the new wing of the massive convention centre.

SOURCE:china daily-----
Copyright 2001 TOM.COM LIMITED. All rights reserved
===
<;-)

Old Yeller (5/9/01; 10:01:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 53291)
East Asia's official gold holdings
http://sf-web1.businesswire.com/cgi-bin/f_headline.cgi?day0/211292370&ticker=

To me,this is one of the bigger riddles of the FX/gold reserve debate.Given the devastating currency collapses experienced in the region in 1997 and 1998,how can they leave themselves so vulnerable to a US dollar collapse?

Is maintaining trade with the US so important that they will risk trading tangible finished goods for dollar commitments of a somewhat questionable nature?Where is the protection for their citizens efforts over this period?

Shake up the pot,boys,$800 billion is a awful lot to put on one rather tired lookin' horse.

Thanks to LionsBreath at kitco for the link.

USAGOLD (5/9/01; 10:01:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 53290)
Today's Report: Centaur Collapse Behind Gold Move?
http://www.usagold.com/Order_Form.html
5/9/01 (www.usagold.com). . .
. Gold surged in early New York
trade pushed higher by a
combination of fund buying and
consistent support from physical
buyers on dips. There is also some
speculation in the gold market
this morning that the quick move
to the upside might be the result
of Australia's Centaur Mining
Company's collapse. . . . . . .

To read the complete story,
please join us at our private
access COMMENTARY & REVIEW
page. A quick, one-time
registration is required. Please go to link above

JMB (5/9/01; 10:01:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 53289)
CNBC and GOLD
From the floor of the venerable New York Stock exchange we are assurred by Bob Pissanti that "gold isn't going anywhere." From the CNBC spin room we hear Ted David's disclaimer that CNBC is not involved in a conspiracy against gold. So far so good. I can handle that. Hey, confirming anecdotal evidence that gold is certainly not over bought. I like it.

But then comes Joe "How Does My Hair Look" Kernan. This guy, this M.I.T. asshole really frosts me. (Sorry, but he doesn't deserve to be called an "anus".)

It's true that many of us have purchased gold at higher levels. In '97 I started buying at $350 or so. The lower it dropped, the more I bought. Thanks to the generous members of this forum, I not only have a fairly good understanding of economics and what will certainly take place with the purchasing power of the U. S. Dollar in the not too distant future but I also have a descent "stash". I feel very confident that I'm on the right side of the gold market and so should you.

The "Hair Hat" on CNBC with a degree from M.I.T. is one dumb, arrogant, inconsiderate prick. He really thinks it's funny that people have lost money in the gold market. What a sad little man.

Please excuse the cussing....I was pissed!

agbull (5/9/01; 09:36:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 53288)
Investment help for tech investors
http://www.herald-trib.com/2news.cfm?ID=45192
Got a kick out of the way this guy wrote the article..

Econoclast (5/9/01; 09:24:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 53287)
Wealth outside the credit realm/Viewing the forest from the trail
A refreshing hike! I have been shown the shortcomings in my thoughts in a way that demands me to think. I clearly see that gold as wealth must be kept completely outside the credit realm for it to function properly.

"But, it will allow society a way to judge political efficiency"

The thought that is left lingering in my mind is "what would be the motivation for the architects to allow and even encourage the above?" I am searching my "internal hard drive" for some data that may lead to an answer. The EU seems to be a socialistic leaning concern that would not be amused with competition when it is fully grown. Would freegold be a bone thrown to other factions in the world to achieve their alliance? I am fairly certain that an answer would not involve the "best interests of the people".

I am coming to appreciate the true difficulty in seeing the forest through the trees when my own life experience is so short and my thoughts are shaped by experiencing such a small portion of the timeline of our money system.
I have so many more questions, but I will search within for some answers. I will throw out one real quickly though:

Right now, I can buy two bottles of fine first growth futures for about one ounce of gold. Will this ratio still be the same when we have reached our destination?

Thank you.

Mr Gresham (5/9/01; 09:17:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 53286)
FOA
I haven't been much of a gold standard thinker, so the relation of gold and legal tender laws doesn't go very far back into my very recent learnings about "money". (Two years ago I couldn't have told you how the Fed and banks make fractional reserve fiat.)

(Despite my handle, which drawing upon my namesake would tell me that, even under a "gold as legal tender" regime, fiat might drive gold back into hiding. Maybe FOA is telling us that, overall concerning human nature over the millennia, gold is ALWAYS somewhat (and very realistically) "in hiding", and that any effort to create systems of "public trustworthiness" concerning gold are, well, worth only the paper they're printed on?)

FOA: "...forbid the enforcement of collateral attachment anytime physical gold is traded, lent or involved in a trade..." How likely is such legislation, or is it in the cards already? Yes, it seems that in our debtor-sympathetic world (behind which many BIG institutions are hiding even now), it would be easier to put through a law letting them off the hook, rather than protecting creditors. So wealth-holders would be doubly leery of lending their gold. But it is just hard right now to imagine ANY laws being put through concerning gold (keeping it off the radar entirely), let alone International laws?

Now, what would be the effect of this on gold's value as a wealth holding? If I know that other gold-holders are less likely to lend theirs, would it initially hold up gold's exchange value for "other things"? I guess so. The borrowers will not be able to sell my gold in the marketplace in order to engage in fiat enterprises; it will be up to me only, to sell it for "final payments." Right?

But borrowing gold would create gold demand at re-payment time, but then re-payments are often rolled over, and meanwhile the Debtor's "good credit standing" is being substituted for the gold as a "wealth holding" in the Creditor's portfolio. ("Inflation") And eventually those "credit standings" deteriorate over time for the masses. Hmmmmm....

Second question: (or is it more of a post- mortem?) "Investors and the industry in total, brought into paper based gold and yet they fully well knew 90% of it had only cash equity as the collateral on the other side."

We as individuals would tend to see our precious savings at risk in such a system, more quickly than a large gold/paper trading institution making its money off a short-term horizon, percentage commission and fees profit picture, running against other institutions doing the same game (and who can resist playing?), with a government/Fed rescue guarantee backing them. Maybe the risk/reward picture works out for them that way?

Was it the institutions, manned by employees not risking their own money, Economics 101-educated (perhaps younger) functionaries just going to work each day collecting paychecks, with no real incentives to probe for the weakness in paper markets, and stand back from them? Believing that they can always reverse a position in an ever-liquid market? (Since Black-Scholes always assumes a liquid market and not a "crowded trade".)

I guess I'm looking for your take on WHO made these mistakes, and why. Because it is hard from our individual perspectives here to imagine that the investment business is run in such an UN-businesslike manner. Aren't these people supposed to be collectively a little bit wiser, more experienced, and more responsible than we, uh, amateurs? Instead, of the extreme opposite, a bunch of wild cowboys and riverboat gamblers. Is it something about the nature of "institutional momentum"?

Or is it, again, a risk/reward calculation that works in these times? "Keep the gold yourself, flush the bank..."

Buena Fe (5/9/01; 09:16:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 53285)
My Policy vs US Policy ( I can vote without leaving a hanging chad!)
Forget the US Admin's dollar policy.........I have my own $ policy.........convert it to da shinny ASAP.

AEL (5/9/01; 09:14:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 53284)
netking
Netking #53268
Yes, I assumed as much. Actually I meant literally
"where do you live". I am to the west of Detroit.
Would be nice sometime to chat in the flesh with
fellow silverbug, if there is more than 2 of us in
the same timezone. ;-)

Buena Fe (5/9/01; 09:12:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 53283)
NOTE
FORGOT TO MENTION THAT THOSE WERE ONLY SNIPPETS OF A MUCH LARGER DISCUSSION BY THE FULL ARTICLE.

Buena Fe (5/9/01; 09:11:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 53282)
U.S. Economy: Treasury Wants a New Measure of Trade
http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?ptitle=Top%20Financial%20News&s1=blk&tp=ad_topright_topfin&T=markets_bfgcgi_content99.ht&s2=ad_right1_topfin&bt=ad_position1_topfin&middle=ad_frame2_topfin&s=AOvlRKRSrVS5TLiBF
AN INTERESTING READ........IS O'NEILL LOOKING FOR EXCUSES OR WHAT?

``If Japanese owners of dollar assets needed to repatriate those investments, then a drop in the dollar might set off other people to do the same,'' said Robert Solow, a Nobel Prize-winning economist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

Solow and a colleague, Franco Modigliani, wrote an article in the New York Times in April suggesting that the current-account deficit may be ``the greatest potential danger'' facing the U.S. economy in coming years.

Value Added

The article prompted a telephone call from O'Neill, keeper of the Bush administration's strong dollar policy, who wanted to know whether Solow thought he was overlooking dangers of the trade deficit. A strong dollar makes U.S. exports less competitive, and imports cheaper.

``We thought the issue hadn't been getting enough policy attention,'' Solow said in an interview.

The U.S. could try to lower the value of the dollar, making U.S. products cheaper and imports more expensive. Or it could erect additional barriers to trade and investment.

So far, O'Neill and other Bush administration officials aren't changing dollar policy, and continue to press for greater liberalization of trade laws. The debate over the current account ``comes out of a thought process and a set of conventions about how we think about our economy and the world economy that I think are wrong,'' O'Neill said.

Carl H (5/9/01; 09:00:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 53281)
Netking: GFMS Silver Survey
We would all like to have verifiable data on gold and silver. If you can point to better data, I'm sure everyone would be very grateful. Given how opaque these markets are, I doubt that better data exists in the public domain.

Yes, unfortunately the Silver Survey is forced to resort to private sources for some of their claims. I would say that this is common practice for industry organizations that deal with sensitive information. I accept this and evaluate their claims accordingly.

Now, let's examine the claims about China dishoarding Silver by asking a number of questions:

First, do they have anything to back their claim at all? On p40 they state "Of the officially recorded imports into Hong Kong in 1999 over 70% came from China". I would take this to mean that they at least have a lower bound on the silver exports from the public record.

Second, is it possible for the Chinese to have enough silver to export? Prior to 1935, China was on a silver standard. This could give them a significant supply of confiscated coin as a possible source. Additionally, they do have significant silver mining capacity. I would say from this that it is quite reasonable to assume that the Chinese have enough to dishoard the amounts indcated on p31 of the Silver Survey.

Third, can we postulate any good reason why China would dishoard silver? Simple, to gain entry into the WTO and get permanent MFN status. These seem like good motivations to me.

Finally, I'll make a bit of a leap and guess that Clinton's current vist to China have something to do with Silver...(Probably trading Taiwan for 100MOz of silver ;-)

Mr Gresham (5/9/01; 08:34:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 53280)
Canuck
Randy said: "One never knows what combination of words will prove most salient to various people, and thus we offer many variations on the theme to be conveyed. "

Your "combination of words" today was an eloquent statement of our whole reason for being here...

Lease rates flat at 2%, XAU up, POGster spiking...Are we heading for a three-fer day?

(Oops, getting a Cole Porter moment: "...POGster's spiking, and the lease rates are high...")

Gold Trail Update (5/9/01; 07:20:23MDT - Msg ID:53279)
The Gold Trail Discussion has been Updated
The Gold Trail Discussion has been updated. Click on the link to read the latest updates.

Chris Powell (5/9/01; 07:08:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 53278)
Kitco confirms gold price up $3.80 at 9:09a ET
I'd like to think that it's the Durban
conference!

Chris Powell (5/9/01; 06:58:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 53277)
London Evening Standard reports putdown of GATA
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/752
The other side is starting to have to
take note of us.

To subscribe to GATA's dispatches
by email and get them immediately so
you don't have to go look for them,
send an email to:

gata-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

WAC (Wide Awake Club) (5/9/01; 06:48:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 53276)
(No Subject)
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/html/news.html
Here is an article from Business section of Evening Standard.

Boost for Fed in gold fight

by Lauren Chambliss in Washington

AMERICAN investment banks and government officials are hoping for a speedy end to a trial that accuses them of manipulating the gold market, following a report from the London Business School. The report has refuted the idea
that US officials and Wall Street bankers have conspired to keep down the price of gold.

As the gold price slumped in the past several years, conspiracy theories have risen in inverse proportion. The most popular is that US and European governments have manipulated the market to keep the price down for the
benefit of the wealthier gold-holding nations, at the expense of the poorer gold-producing nations.

Late last year, a group of gold investors backed by the Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee filed suit in the District Court in Boston against Federal Reserve and Treasury officials and five top investment banks, including
Goldman Sachs, Citigroup, JP Morgan and Chase Manhattan.

The suit alleges US government, the Bank for International Settlements and big investment banks 'co-ordi-nated the sale and leasing of gold and the sale of gold derivatives' to keep the price low as part of a long-term strategy to stem institutional losses, prop up the dollar and minimise
inflation in the US and Europe.

Associate Professor Anthony Neuberger of the London Business School, however, reviewed gold market data over the past decade and found no unusual activity that would point to market manipulation.

The report debunking the conspiracy theory coincides with a high-profile gathering of gold industry leaders in Durban, South Africa, this week at which members of the Texas-based Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee say they will reveal new evidence to support their allegation the Federal Reserve
and US Treasury have intervened in the gold market.

GATA chairman Bill Murphy has been quoted as saying he thinks the gold market manipulation will 'turn out to be one of the biggest financial scandals in US history'.

Its suit charges that several major investment houses have appeared as heavy sellers of gold on the New York Commodities Exchange whenever necessary to kill any significant rally.

Whether the case goes to trial will depend on a judge agreeing there is enough initial evidence to warrant a trial. A motion to dismiss the suit has been filed by Lawrence Summers, Alan Greenspan and other current and
former government officials named as defendants. Summers was Treasury Secretary when the suit was filed late last year. The Department of Justice's memorandum asking the court to dismiss the case reasserts the US Treasury's claim it has not traded in gold or gold derivatives since 1978.

'The GATA people are out of their minds and the London Business School
report shows it,' said a spokesperson for a major US investment bank, who
asked not to be named. 'A conspiracy between the German Bundesbank, the
BIS, the Treasury, the Fed, and Five big Wall Street banks? Come on. We
hope for a speedy dismissal.'

� Associated Newspapers Ltd., 09 May 2001
Terms and Conditions
This Is London

ausome (5/9/01; 06:39:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 53275)
(No Subject)
POG up $4 at GE. Still cant reach Kitco.

ausome (5/9/01; 06:32:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 53274)
POG spike
Can't sem to get the kitco site up, seems to be down. GE has POG up $2. Any thoughts as to what the GATA camp are thinking as they prepare? Is this the beginning of the end game. Go GATA go gold.

Canuck (5/9/01; 04:49:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 53273)
BB
Your 53265 hits the nail on the head.

Excellent summation.

Canuck (5/9/01; 04:42:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 53272)
I see said the blind man
I had a heck of a time falling off to sleep last night envisioning the world in another decade.

With the 'boomers' turning the corner into retirement and into old age how are we going to pay for them. Retirement and health costs will be enormus.

As the population increases, if in fact it does, and with fewer energy resources how are we going to 'divi up' less for more?

I can see the governments desparate ploy now. With huge debts the cost to 'carry' an ageing population into retirement will be the final spike in the bankruptcy coffin. If the government can manipulate the stock markets rise to fulfil two goals, that is to lower debt and secure self-sustaining funds for the 'old folks', perhaps they can wiggle out of this bankruptcy mess.

We know (and maybe they know) that prosperity cannot be bought so what is the end result? A failing of the system, a debt so massive that cascading cross-defaults will swallow everything. I cannot see it any other way.

So what does this mean? It means that I, as an individual, must prepare for the inevitable. I cannot save 'money' for the end-game; paper will have no value, I must save tangible, hard, physical assets that possess value. These items must have strength in good times and bad, honor in ancient and future time and represent wealth for which I can carry with me.

When people begin to understand that governments will fail to protect them from harm and wealth evaporation, one by one they will seek self-protection as described above. They will leave the govenment 'nest' and move out on their own.

This will happen slowly, as each realizes the self perpetrating fiat bubble will not solve future problems, the enactment we are witnessing is a 'band-aid' that will fall off and we left on our own.

I have begun, and only begun to wean myself from fiat destruction and only require the patience to self-administer my 'plan' for wealth preservation. I am beginning to understand that this may take years, I am beginning to live with this. In the interim I will accumulate hard assets so when, not if, governments self-destruct I will not be reliant on them in any way, shape or form.

Canuck.

Yukon (5/9/01; 03:11:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 53271)
FOIA Request..."and the cradle will rock!"
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_01/tlaga050901.html
Good Morning to all!

Thought we could all do our part in support of GATA and Mr. Turks' findings in discovering the rationale and details of the new classification of gold at the U.S. Mint's West Point facility in New York. With events moving forward in the GATA/Howe lawsuit, it certainly would help the POG if it were known that a swap with the Bundesbank from U.S. reserves has taken place without Congressional consent (ESF?).

Further, if the U.S. stockpile allocated in Germany has already been sold or lent into the market, then indeed some brows may krinkle in Washington (but I doubt it...maybe when there dental gold will pay off their mortgage). As most who are following gold know by now, the Treasury Dept.s reclassification of gold at West Point is certainly suspicious to say the least. If it is an "innocent reclassification", then so be it. But I think we all owe it to ourselves to hold our government accountable and reveal the facts.

I suggest we all duplicate the efforts to bring our Secretary of the Treasury to a point of full disclosure. Certainly, a letter similar to the link above would go a long way toward stating that We the People are not going away, and we demand a simple explanation to a simple question. Perhaps we really can play an active role in the fate of our ever evolving gold market (that is aside from accumulation at huge discounts).

As President Thomas Jefferson is quoted as saying, "The price of Liberty is eternal vigillance." I could not agree more. Let us bring what we can to this battle in the war against gold. For as we all know, it is truly a war on personal, economic and financial freedom.

May our hearts shine bright as the golden sun, yet shield us from its burn;
May our minds be as scales of Justice with which to judge and further learn;
We hope for peace in all our lives yet beckon to the call; For courage we hold on to our (s)words as we repell the next wave of assault.

To quills, fellow Knights...let us make a stand now on paper, before we are forced to defend our physical with physical!

Yukon

P.S.: Re: FDR's E/O Consfiscating gold in 1933, can anyone show me where in our Constitution Congress has the power to give authority to the President to enact an Executive Order that has jurisdiction over the people of the fifty states?

Also: Can anyone tell me where in our Constitution it is stated that Congress can re-delegate a power to a private group that we have delegated to them?

More later. Thanks to all for many great lessons.

Randy (@ The Tower) (5/9/01; 02:40:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 53270)
Packing FOA into a powerful little nutshell for those of little patience...
http://www.usagold.com/goldtrail/
From the latest trek on the Gold Trail...
---BEGIN EXCERPTS---
FOA (05/08/01; 20:54:48MT - usagold.com msg#71)
One of the major problems faced by past hard money planers was that any time real wealth, gold, is denominated as credit money, it always placed the relationship between the rule of law and the rule of gold at odds. If our laws defined gold as official money, and lent it, then by association the law had to define a portion of gold that did not exist in circulation.

To deal in the future,,,,, to borrow,,,,, to capitalize would require the use of a fiat function. Gold could / would be a final trade; I'll give you ten cars (or gold) for your house,,, deal done. If I want more time to pay, I and we must engage a fiat loan.

Installing a trading medium outside lawful money that acts as a wealth savings and a final trade will not destroy the bankers, governments or paper credit inflation. But, it will allow society a way to judge political efficiency. A nation's productivity will then have two scales to measure with, one it must live with (final payment) and another it cannot live without (future payment).
----END----

Trail Guide, my friend, I do believe the message will get through to some people if only they allow themselves the time to ruminate carefully on your comments above. One never knows what combination of words will prove most salient to various people, and thus we offer many variations on the theme to be conveyed. That said, I think you've struck upon the shortest combination offering the strongest impact.

While we have a great many proponents calling for something called "hard money", it should be getting ever clearer in their perceptions that even the "hardest" of monies quickly become quite ethereal upon the moment of being borrowed. Hence my well-worn refrain, "(fiat) currency is for borrowing and spending, while gold is for saving". And as you aptly point out, should the person choose to offer "payment in full" rather than "payment on the installment plan", then just as is the case today, that person can choose to liquidate an adequate portion of their true savings rather than choosing to finance the purchase with future earnings.

And as the many participants in the cycling economy play their inflationary tunes with elastic fiat currencies, the dwindling failures of the currencies won't drag down the value of real wealth items such as gold held in savings. This is a refreshing departure from the path often seen and suffered with "hard money" gold currency throughout history. It is only when gold becomes detached from the currency after the inevitably debilitating credit expansions that it reclaims a level of its wholely-owned wealth value.

And lest we forget, as of 1971 gold has shed its credit attachments to to dollar, but yet suffers in obscured value from inflated credit attachments to a realm of gold derivatives. But as you know so well, this too shall pass. We purchase gold today in preparation for that event -- a final derivative default that leaves the derivatives utterly worthless without even a "currency function" such as the defaulted gold-dollar was at least able to cling to.

Netking (5/9/01; 01:18:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 53269)
@Carl H - GFMS "Propoganda"
Carl H(53245) - Regarding GFMS Silver Figures
For sure silver is coming from sources we can't
indentify, but from leasing. Whether it is from The Central Banks of the Phillipenes, or China(although unlikely) is immaterial. This is a source that is highly uneconomic and unsustainable. But take a look for substantiation on the China flows, and you won't see squat. These China stories are made up by GFMS, and I challenge them to verify their statements. It's always, they know privately, but can't
back it up publicly. It's pure rubbish, just like their inventory figures.
To think the Silver Association publishes GFMS's work as fact,is a disgrace. If they can't back up what they claim to be is true, just assume what they're saying is garbage, and you'll be safe. Cheers Netking

Netking (5/9/01; 01:08:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 53268)
@AEL
AEL(53243)
I bought them in a Western country outside of the USA, from a large local dealer who focuses on Silverware & PM's.
Cheers Netking

Black Blade (5/9/01; 00:32:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 53267)
Munk comes to defense of Barrick's gold hedging (Defending the Undefendable)
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010508/n08594924.html

Snippit:

TORONTO, May 8 (Reuters) - Barrick Gold Corp.'s (Toronto:ABX.TO) chairman came to the defense of his company's controversial hedging program on Tuesday arguing it helps, not hurts, the price of gold. "Hedging the way Barrick does it, not only does no harm to a gold price over any period of time, but it actually assists in the evolution of a healthy gold price,'' he told shareholders at the company's annual meeting.

Black Blade: Somehow when I read this statement from the Chunky Munky I think of that sone from Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon, now what was it called? - Oh yeah, "Brain Damage." Who does he think he's kidding? I'm sure that Barrick shareholders are thrilled at the great return on equity for holding Barrick shares. Oh to be a fly on the wall during one of Barrick's Board meetings.

Board Meeting at Barrick Headquarters:

Munky: Well we did not do so well this quarter. What do we do? Randall, what do you suggest?

Oliphant (rhymes with elephant): How about increasing management bonuses?

Munky: Splendid idea! The shareholders won't care, they hold our shares don't they? What a bunch of losers.

Oilphant (rhymes with elephant): Yeah, maybe they're brain dead. OK then, that's all for this quarters board meeting, Oh yeah, hey Peter, I found this old rock song we can play at the annual shareholders meeting, it's called Brain Damage.

Munky: Cool, maybe I'll also give a really lame speech about how selling forward many years of gold production is good for the gold price. After all, they buy Barrick Gold's shares, right?

Old Yeller (5/9/01; 00:15:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 53266)
Another one bites the dust
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010508/n08587820.html

So the productivity miracle is looking a little rough around the edges,is it?

It's going to be interesting to see how they spin this one.Will it be a short term aberation or perhaps something new'specially designed for this little dilemma.

How long are foreign creditors going to buy into this?

ViewYesterday's Discussion.

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