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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 9/8/2000
All times are U.S. Mountain Time
(Yesterday's Discussion.)
goldhunter
(09/08/00; 21:05:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 36288)
Aristotle...discussions
The good folks here are probably retired for awhile in your opinions vs mine...so I'll not try to "wear out a welcome" except for these brief notes...
I have tried to share...not convince you, not my job...
My opinions have been stated clearly, and with evidence
There is no challenge between us...doesn't need to be
There are people who come here for questions and answers about the price of gold, and where/when it's moving...
We are team-mates Aristotle. We all want more profit/value in our precious (metal) portfolios, and these portfolios contain coins, futures, options, and stocks...read what folks write...what they have "in stock". They want information...
That's about it for a Friday...
LeSin
(09/08/00; 20:56:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 36287)
Picture of Markets When Physical "RULES" @ PGMs - telling Golds Future
Friday September 8, 11:10 am Eastern Time
Platinum fails to hold gains after revisiting highs
By Sara Marani
LONDON, Sept 8 (Reuters) - Platinum flirted with highs on Friday in London as good industrial demand combined with supply shortages helped push the price towards recent 12-year peaks, but it failed to hold the levels during the European session.
Platinum, gaining popularity in jewellery but also used in catalysts and electronics, climbed to fix at $612 an ounce in the morning -- the 12-year high set last month -- but by the afternoon it had fallen back to fix at $609.50.
``In all the platinum group metals (PGMs) there's a good amount of industrial demand so the market is well suppported. It's also pushing higher on supply issues as the Russians have clearly been holding their metal back,'' said Ross Norman of thebulliondesk.com.
Russia, which accounts for 65 percent of world palladium supply and 20 percent of platinum, has held up exports each year since 1997, citing bureaucratic bottlenecks.
Its platinum group metal export agent, Almazjuvelirexport (Almaz), said it would resume exports of palladium later in September but has given no indication on platinum.
There is talk Almaz is holding out for yet higher prices while choking off spot sales to increase its bargaining power.
``As long as demand continues strong and the metal is in short supply, the price will stay firm,'' said a trader.
Spot platinum was at $606.80/$612.80 in late trade, just up from Thursday's New York close at $604.50/$612.50.
JEWELLERY, CAR MAKERS BOOST DEMAND
Platinum jewellery demand, especially in China, was seen as a major contributor to robust overall demand. Estimates of demand in China were of a year-to-date increase of 30 percent from last year's record of 950,000 ounces.
Another contributing factor was less supply from the world's biggest platinum producer Amplats , whose refined platinum output was 871,900 ounces in the first six months of this year, down from 928,200 ounces in the same period the previous year.
But the company did say it was on course to lift annual platinum output to an annual 3.5 million ounces by 2006.
``There are also a lot of orders coming from car makers switching from palladium to platinum for new models,'' said Norman.
Palladium is widely used in catalytic converters, but more and more companies are turning to platinum instead.
``They are partial substitutes. You need about two parts palladium and one platinum to get the same catalytic effect. When palladium used to be so much cheaper that made sense, but now it doesn't,'' Norman explained.
Spot palladium was last at $760.00/$770.00 from $760.30/$780.30.
Market participants have been waiting for deliveries of palladium from Russia since producer Norilsk Nickel ordered Almaz in July to sign deals with Japanese buyers.
``But Norilsk has already been selling the drips that have been entering the market, so even when this stuff does start to arrive it probably won't amount to much,'' said the trader.
But as with platinum, it was demand that was supporting palladium's price.
``It's in electronics that palladium really does well. White goods, toys, mobile phones -- they all have small palladium chips,'' said Norman.
Now only panic buying could push prices back up to highs, market players said.
``If the Russians fail to deliver that might urge a few car companies to come in and replenish stocks,'' said one.
lamprey_65
(09/08/00; 20:08:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 36286)
Further...
It is very, very important not to get shaken out during the coming ride up. Just as the techs and internets had some tremendous shakout pull-backs over the last few years, gold will too. For me, this is a longer term (probably at least 18 months, minimum) play for mining shares. Once again...the Dow/Gold ratio will be my final guide.
Physical I will not sell...it's my safety blanket.
lamprey_65
(09/08/00; 20:02:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 36285)
Cavan Man
I see $360 as a short term resistance level only. $400 as longer term resistance. It is my belief, however, that $400 will be breached by a significant amount in this gold bull. It may take several years to fully peak. I would love to sell when all today's non-believers are lining up once again for precious metals, just as the smart money sold early this year as they lined up for internet stocks (remember the Time Man of the Year for 2000? -- none other than Jeff Bezos of Amazon.com). I will, however, use the Dow/Gold ratio as a guide for locking in profits and I don't see any reasonable way that ratio can get below 10 without gold above $400 an ounce. If you haven't seen MK's chart on this ratio, I highly recommend you review it.
Also, this spring is wound extremely tight...I expect some breathtaking POG moves once the bull starts to charge!
USAGOLD
(09/08/00; 20:02:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 36284)
PH in LA. . .
Heard a rumor yesterday in the gold market that the Gulf was going to start accepting the euro for oil payment. Didn't pass it on because I wasn't sure about it even though the rumor came from a credible source -- Mr. Insider as we used to refer to him. Would like to see the Bloomberg story if someone has a link. Supposedly there will be an announcement September 13. Mr. Insider characterized his source "as very credible, very knowledgeable."
The rest of the story is that Europe made an appeal on the basis of their currency and attempts at nation state being sabotaged by having to buy the dollar then oil. The story is the Saudi's bought it because of the amount of oil directly imported from the Gulf to Europe.
Having been burned so many times on this type of story -- which of course would be of the absolute highest impact on the gold market -- I tend to hold to the wait and see attitude.
As most of you know, FOA hinted something was brewing about a week ago, but it was largely overlooked here.
Cavan Man
(09/08/00; 19:55:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 36283)
PH in LA
A couple of days ago there was a story about SA central government (authority) advising various jurisdictions to abandon the use of all European currencies save the Euro. Could the reference be to this story? If so, maybe not a big deal??
Cavan Man
(09/08/00; 19:52:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 36282)
lamprey_65
Thank you for that analysis. My finger is on the sell button around $400 also when we get there and if the current trading markets are functioning. There is something magic though about $360 and the problems for shorts that level portends. Maybe keep an eye out around that mark.
Cavan Man
(09/08/00; 19:48:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 36281)
PH in LA
Looked for the story and couldn't find it. If in fact it was written, I would expect an update on the gold trail shortly.
Goldfly
(09/08/00; 19:47:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 36280)
PH......
Link! ....... Link!
But anyway, this may be a misconstruing of what the Saudi's have announced...... Instead of using Lira and Marks and Pesos (or whatever...) the are going to denominate in Euros.
It would, of course, be a step they'd have to take to start selling for Euros instead of Dollars, but it may be a leap we're making here.
gf
lamprey_65
(09/08/00; 19:46:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 36279)
Houston, we have a problem!
(Well, someone has a problem - and it ain't me!)
Just did a little research on my charting software...talk about a total disconnect --
Exhibit A
The Commodity Research Beaureau (CRB) Index closed today at 229.78 - gold closed today at 273.05. (not sure of the contract months, but close enough for these examples).
Now, as many of you know, gold is part of the CRB Index.
So, where was gold the last time the CRB was ascending and closed near today's levels? (...before the downturn in commodity prices in 1996 and the later piling on of shorts in the paper gold market).
Answer: On December 13, 1994, the CRB closed at 229.64 and gold closed at 379.05.
Let's not forget that being part of the CRB Index, if gold were at 379.05 today, then the CRB would actually be higher!
So, this first example states the historic relationship between gold and the CRB should place the current gold price at a minimum of $380 an ounce.
Exhibit B
The Gold/Oil Relationship
I've read that the historic price ratio is 17:1.
OK, with oil at $34 a barrel this week, that means a gold price of $578 an ounce.
It would take a ratio of just over 11:1 to get us to our CRB indicated price of $380 an ounce. Today's ratio is only about 8:1.
Exhibit C
Supply/Demand
Frank Veneroso estimates the equilibrium price (without the paper pressure) of gold at over $600 an ounce.
Exhibit D
As Michael shows in his August News & Views, the Dow/Gold ratio is severely out of whack. As of today, it rests near 41. Now, there are several ways to bring this back into balance...either gold has to go to extreme levels (thousands of dollars) or the Dow must at least meet gold somewhere lower than its present price, whether or not gold rises. Now, I would rate the odds of the Dow falling all the way down to the historic ratio average without the gold price rising significantly in the process as very, very low. If the Dow corrects to bring the ratio back in line (as Michael's charts show it probably will in the near future) then I would GUESS that the MINIMUM price of gold would be no less than $400 an ounce...I would expect much more. I base this minimum only on the latest general resistance area for POG at the $400-$420 area from 1994-1996.
So, we have the minimum, best estimates for gold based on historic and supply/demand norms.
Gold/CRB - $380 (Even if the CRB does not rise further)
Gold/Oil - $578
Supply/Demand Models - $600+
Dow/Gold - A ratio under 10.
This is why I LOVE gold at these levels. Personally, my physical holdings are portfolio insurance to be passed down to my future heirs...
I will not begin to even think about pruning my mining stock holdings until we see $400 an ounce again. Thanks to Michael's charts, I'm also looking for a Dow/Gold ratio of under 10 before beginning this process.
Lamprey
PH in LA
(09/08/00; 19:10:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 36278)
Oil settlement in euros?
"...the news on Bloomberg early in the morning (was) that Saudi Arabia said it is going to use the euro in oil transactions." Bill Fleckenstein 9/8/00
Anybody know anything more about this? According to longtime comments by FOA, such a move will be a major catalyst for the cascading decline of the dollar as dollars are no longer needed for oil settlement.
FOA: Is this a development that can occur gradually, over an extended timeframe? Or is this one single news item the beginning of the end?
Farfel: Good point!
Topaz
(09/08/00; 19:08:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 36277)
Canuck - operatives
G'day Canuck:
If we disregard the middle paragraph, it clearly implies there are "more than" 1156 Operatives under the control of the ESF, No?...furthermore bloke1156 is clearly a Supervisor.
In my field, (NOT financial manipulation) a "supervisor" would generally direct a group of 9 (odd) subservients.
One can safely assume therefore the ESF manpower base = upwards of 5000. <smile>
And they STILL can't get the job done - suggest all unemployed Americans search job databases for ESF posn's.
OH - that's right, there aren't any unemployed Americans left, are there?
Leigh
(09/08/00; 18:53:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 36276)
auspec
Your "Goldonomics 101" was the cutest thing I've read in ages! It should be required reading for every fledgling goldbug!
wolavka
(09/08/00; 18:40:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 36275)
tuesdays crop report
wheat production will be at record lows. rock and roll wheat.
Canuck
(09/08/00; 18:24:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 36274)
Does anyone know what this means?
"ATTN: ESF Operatives,
"You are slacking off on the job! The NASDAQ hit its lowest point (below 4000) since mid-August and fell below its 200 day moving average. The S&P closed below the psychological level of 1500 and is just above a support level."
Operative 1156"
-----------------------------------------------------------
I'm not referring to the middle paragraph.
Canuck.
SHIFTY
(09/08/00; 18:22:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 36273)
Le Metropole Cafe
Le Metropole Members,
A Cafe member from the Southwest US sent me a copy
of a letter that he sent to John Mielke, CFTC Enforcement
Director, and the essence of a follow up telephone
conversation he had with Mielke. It has been served
at The Hemingway Table.
I found it to be somewhat astonishing, and to some
degree, a bit alarming. It falls right into line
with the commentary of Another and Friend of Another
at the USA Gold Site.
Are they preparing for what is likely to come?
"I expressed my concerns to Mr. Mielke regarding
the coming short squeeze in the gold and silver
markets. I asked him specifically about the
consequences if a short were unable to deliver
as required by the contract. In a nutshell,
he indicated......."
<A HREF="http://www.LeMetropoleCafe.com/entrance.cfm">Le Metropole Cafe</A>
All the best,
Bill Murphy
Le Patron
www.LeMetropoleCafe.com
Canuck
(09/08/00; 18:09:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 36272)
Might as well get the ball rolling
From our friend Farfel
"Well, it looks like the big storm in the gold market this past week concerns the attacks by the World Gold Council (WGC) AND GFMS against poor little GATA.
One of the major contentions by WGC is something to the effect that, if GATA's analyses (compiled primarily by the most perceptive Frank Veneroso, advisor to various Central Banks, and the extremely brilliant Reg Howe, provider of expert gold derivatives analyses) contained any degree of Truth, then certainly by now a major law firm would have filed formal litigation on behalf of GATA against those bullion banks and gold mining firms that have been engaged in all variety of market rigging, collusive, price-fixing schemes in the gold market.
Upon first glance, that seems like a valid valid criticism and I have urged GATA in the past to file formal litigation.
However upon further analysis, I now feel that GATA is correct in its approach and should simply step up the attacks full throttle, and only REACT to litigation rather than initiate it.
Because the bottom line reality is this: if GATA's assertions, disseminated to major politicians, media outlets, and gold industry honchos throughout the world were as invalid and outrageous as WGC and GFMS claim, then the real question is this:
WHY HAS NOBODY FILED A LAWSUIT AGAINST GATA?
WHY HAS NOBODY FILED A LAWSUIT AGAINST GATA?
WHY HAS NOBODY FILED A LAWSUIT AGAINST GATA?
That is the real million dollar question demanding an answer, NOT the fact that a weakly funded GATA organization has not mounted a super-expensive legal action against some of the major lions of the Establishment. As it stands, GATA could not afford to go up against these guys with the mere approx. $200,000 of funds raised. The monies would barely cover legal expenses, let alone any upfront legal fees. Moreover, why should any major law firm work on contingency for GATA, especially if the targets are some of the most powerful investment institutions in the world? In fact, it would be near impossible to find a potent law firm that does not have any conflict of interest issues with any of these Establishment titans.
And let me take my point it one step further....back in 1997, the Toronto Globe and Mail published my lengthy Letter to the Editor detailing a litany of crimes perpetrated by MR. PETER MUNK of Barrick Gold, in which I accused him of being a major instigator of problems in the gold industry. Essentially, I mocked the notion that he had one scintilla of empathy for the gold bear's victims, from its devastated employees to its harmed investors.
Now that letter did result in Barrick's investor relations rep contacting me at my Bel Air home telephone (how she got my unlisted number, I do not know), then issuing an indignant rebuttal along with a variety of implicit verbal threats. A very heated exchange, and I did not back off nor apologize for any one of my comments.
Yet, if I were so off-base and so delusional in my analysis, why did Barrick fail to follow up and slam me formally for libel?
Answer: Because everything I have published about Barrick and Peter Munk is true, they know, I know it, and the entire world knows it (excluding Barrick's pathetic, deceived shareholders and ALL gold shorts)
Analogously, everything that GATA has published concerning the gold carry trade, the gold shorting mining companies, the collusional bullion banks, etc....these are ALL true because if they were not true, by now, GATA would be up to its ears in litigation. Yet not a formal shot has been fired. It is beyond strange, this total absence of response from these major corporations and entities.
YOu would think that by now, they would no longer remain impassive in the face of mass disseminations of materials containing sharp accusations against them, the accusatory material finding its way to senior Senators, Congressmen, and Editors of major Metropolitan media outlets. I know, because I put much of the material in front of them.
It can only mean one thing: GATA is printing absolute Truths about this patently corrupted gold market and its targets know it. Moreover, this corrupted gold market does NOT want the light of transparency shining down upon it, not now, not ever. It needs to operate in the shadows because otherwise, exposures of what is going on would blow the lid off the price of gold and hammer the US Dollar. There can be no other conceivable interpretations, and until I read one day of formal litigation aimed against GATA, then I have absolutely no reason to doubt the veracity of GATA's many accusations."
Thanks
F*
-----------------------------------------------------------
Well, well, well. Farfel's logic is sound as usual, good point old man. Now, from a 'lurker' of old are you a GATA supporter, a WGC supporter or just stirring the 'crap' to get a fight started. I see your point, if indeed it is your intention to get something started. I am leaning towards your intuition, somebody take a shot and let's get this started. Now, I may be completely in the upper left bleachers and I apologize sincerely if I guess you wrong.
The National Post had a great article today; who the hell is Jessica Cross? What we need is a 'new' gold expect!! So now we debate the issue if the paper players are 4,750 tonnes short or 9,000. The author of the story (I hope to post later) makes the point that gold investment is quite possibly low risk at this time.
So let the good times roll, everybody launch class action suits, debate the 5,000/9,000 issue, expose the truth, stir the 'crap' and make us rich.
Get some gold and make my day!
Peter Asher
(09/08/00; 17:58:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 36271)
Ari !
That was an elegant and perfectly comprised statment on your part. Every word of it. Excellent!
Aristotle
(09/08/00; 17:44:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 36270)
Mr. Goldhunter, perhaps you would be kind enough to share additional thoughts--
I had offered a post two days ago to explain why "the price of Gold" was not rising, and it sparked quite a little tantrum on your part. You said--
"we have a well known poster offering his opinion almost as fact as to why gold is down so far in the price cycle...It's because of the "paper" gold market he writes...futures are the root of all evil...don't you know? BUNK, HOGWASH, CRAP...We will see futures and physical turn higher sometime together, and when the tide turns, futures and coins will reward all who hold them (longs)."
In my post, I made the explicit plea, "In the event that my proffered explanations are ignored because the general impression is that they are NOT correct, I encourage anyone and everyone to please promptly set me straight on the path to a keener understanding. "
During my days--here and elsewhere in the world--I have expended efforts to gain an understanding of certain items that were worthy of attention, and to pass that understanding along; not as simple de facto statements of omnipotence that must stand alone and unchallenged, but rather as a body of supporting evidence that makes the case for both willing and for skeptical minds alike.
While I am heartened to see that the position of understanding I have endeavored to express over time has been roundly supported by FOA as a fair characterization of the evolving Gold market, it doesn't surprise me to receive challenges also.
But your "challenge"??? You are quick to throw buckets of "hogwash" to rid the forum of my "bunk" and my "crap," but in the end you offered nothing to show any signs of mismanagement of the "body of evidence" I have presented, nor how my conclusions are ill-founded. If, in your mind, the situation I have expressed is faulty, please show where my conclusions do not follow the evidence. And further, please submit your own body of evidence so that skeptical minds might have confidence in the conclusions you've drawn as a result of your own carefully developed understanding in this worthy pursuit.
I'm sorry, but to say simply as you did, "Futures and physical oil, platinum, and palladium have already moved nicely higher (together) and gold's time is coming," is to entirely miss the significance (and "manipulated performance") of Gold in international settlement in the real world.
Until you begin to be guided by your brain and not your gut, I'm inclined to say you are beyond my reach. This is fine by me, but if you choose to continue to throw stones, you shall only reveal the weakness of your arm.
Gold. Get you some. ---Aristotle
Topaz
(09/08/00; 15:58:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 36269)
goldhunter (9/8/2000; 6:00:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 36243)
Good Morning (here) Goldhunter:
After posting my comments yesterday it occurred to me that the "your" in the last sentence sounded a bit harsh - shoulda said "our" <smile>:
OK lets see, - < Government statistics finally tell us the true story...> Dream on GH! "eventually" they may condescend to provide a "less unrealistic" picture, but "true" I think not. Even "that" would be better than current estimates hey?
< The hedgers become BUYERS...> Yup - could happen, getting to $320-$340 will be nigh on impossible "without" a WA style left field event though - Staying there, as we saw recently will be damn hard too.
< Speculators jumping in on "the bandwagon"...> see above.
GH, as a "commodity", Au (and Ag) may well react to the current inflationary climate as you have outlined - and the picture painted by "western" interests - dis-investment by CB's etc - would support that pos'n, but far too many instances can be cited where Au/Ag remain the antithesis of the Fiat money Empire and will not "CANNOT" be permitted to react as mere commodities.
So too, but to a lesser extent PGM'S,& OIL, where other "interests" are controlling their price destiny in a "behind-the-scenes shootout" to effect a transition from the US$ as it has reached it's saturation point Globally. Supply and Demand - "ba-humbug"
But-as we are all on the same team, I wish you well in the coming "bull" and are gladdened by your "contrary-contrary" viewpoint. (You plainly know more than I when it comes to "things as they ARE")
Journeyman
(09/08/00; 15:23:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 36268)
Free-trade IV: The Good, the Bad AND the Ugly @ALL
PREVIOUS INSTALLMENTS: Journeyman (09/05/00; msg#: 36076)
---------------------- Journeyman (09/06/00; msg#: 36133)
---------------------- Journeyman (09/07/00; msg#: 36204)
So far we've discovered in previous installments that
establishment "vested interests," don't like free trade in free
markets because of the pricing, etc. pressures the competiton
causes - - - and that only our schizophrenic "consumer-half"
likes free-trade.
We've also learned that the logic of "comparative advantage"
suggests it's better for us each to do what we do best and trade
for most other things and in fact, we'd almost have to be crazy
_NOT_ to trade - - - and because of this, that interfering with
trade is generally _not_ "in the common interest."
Further we've learned that free markets don't exist - - - because
they are suppressed and always have been, largely by an alliance
between "vested interests of entrepreneurs, capitalists,
land-owners, and workers" in cahoots with governments, and that
since these supressions are administered by governments, they end
up doing very little protecting but a lot of taxing.
Hope you slept better last night - - - but here's the next
installment.
_Lost jobs_
In 1990 right after the Berlin Wall came down and the Soviet
empire tumbled, about 24% of the Polish population were farmers.
At about that same time in the United States, less than one
percent of Americans were farming. But, if you look back in
history, a similar proportion of Americans (about 25%) were
engaged in farming around 1900. Since about 1900 in the United
States, then, we have "lost" about 96% of the jobs in farming.
Is this good or bad?
Remember that little ole shoemaker, improving her skills to be
more efficient? Well guess what -- that's normal. So is
inventing machines like her industrial strength sewing machine --
"capital equipment" remember -- that further increases
efficiency. And clearly you out there raising all those bushels
of wheat were busy increasing _your_ efficiency -- often called
"productivity" -- too. It's a never ending process.
And, as Greenspan suggests of productivity, "ultimately the
standard of living of human beings is determined by the output
per worker." -Alan Greenspan to US House, July 22, 1998
The net result of increases in productivity are that you can
produce the same amount of product using fewer man-hours - - -
_or_ more product with the _same number_ of man-hours. What's
happened in U.S. farming is that productivity has increased so
much since 1900 that a combination of the above alternatives
happened. That is, much more food is now produced but it
requires fewer man hours to produce it.
We can choose to look at this as a positive - - - fewer men and
women toiling in the fields doing exhausting dusk-to-dawn
physical labor. I suppose we could also choose to view it as a
negative -- more idle hands to do the devil's work. Is it good
that in 1990, fully a quarter of the Polish people still had to
work full-time just to feed themselves and the other three-
quarters of their population? Is it bad that only about one in a
hundred Americans has to work to feed us all (plus producing huge
surplusses to trade overseas to other people)?
Of course, if you told a 1900s American -- or a 1990 Pole -- that
the population of farmers within their respective societies was
going to dwindle to approximately one-twenty-fourth its previous
size, they would be incensed and frightened. What would all
those people who are about to "lose their jobs" do for a living?
Clearly even though we "lost" the farming jobs previously held by
24% of Americans, 24% of us _aren't_ unemployed. Why not?
It's clear that as societies evolve and efficiencies in older
industries increase dramatically, the number of man-hours
necessary in the older industries decrease and people are freed-
up to do other things. These gains in efficiency result in more
"stuff" produced per man hour. Many of the "other things" people
find to do can't even be imagined because they're completely new
things. Because of changing circumstances, the _locations_ in
which things are done _also_ change. Most farming in America
used to be done on small family farms --- or in the backyard.
If you could travel back in time to 1900 America, how would you
explain to the denizens what their future countrymen would be
doing? How could you explain that all those people who "lost
farm jobs" are designing and building computers, writing computer
programs, working in the entertainment field, etc. Would things
be better if they were all still picking fruit?
How could I explain to you what people 100 years from now will be
doing? We can't know.
Individuals who used to work on a farm _changed_ jobs. "Losing
jobs" then, is really just the first step in _changing_ jobs.
True, for most people, changing jobs isn't a very pleasant pass-
time, but it's rarely life-threatening.
Just as farming moved out of our early American backyards - - -
it became cheaper in human hours to let the mechanized mega-farms
produce our food mostly in the mid-west - - - just so (because of
comparative advantages), some production has likewise moved _way_
out of our backyard to Mexico, Asia, etc. In a gold-standard
world, there would be few problems if production moved out of our
backyard to Mexico, etc. under _any_ circumstances -- Americans
would just have to change jobs. If you've noticed, there's no
shortage of them.
If trade with your next-door neighbor, Joe Nerdy -- who
straightens out your computer at a single bound, thus saving you
days of fruitless frustration -- is good, and buying those
excellent hydroponic tomatoes grown by "The Horticultural Dudes"
from neighboring San Jose is good, what's wrong with buying that
car, largerly produced in Detroit, Michigan, which saves you the
time of manufacturing one for yourself?
Why then is it a bad thing to trade with some Canadians for the
canola oil you don't have time (or knowledge) to make for
yourself -- or the gold they've mined? Or to trade with some
Mexicans for the fringed blankets you can't find the time to
weave yourself? Or the Japanese for those great electronic
gadgets? Or the Chinese for some of that spiffy bamboo
furniture?
From the other direction, if it's a good idea to restrict trade
with China, Japan, Mexico, Canada, etc., why not with Nevada,
Ohio and Florida? Or even San Jose?
_Logical anti-free-trade arguments_
Confoundingly, however, there _are_ three logical "common
interest" arguments in favor of attempting to hamper trade under
certain situations:
1. _The Sociological arguments,_ which amount at their best to,
"In order to keep my friends and neighbors employed and thus the
neighborhood safe from scrounging poor and homeless folks, we
should protect their jobs from at least some 'foreign'
competiton, --- and implicitly, "I'm willing to subsidize their
jobs and products (even though they are relatively inefficient)
by paying higher prices than I otherwise would if I could buy un-
taxed, unrestricted 'foreign' goods."
2. _The Dependency argument,_ which amounts to, "If we buy
widgets, etc. from 'foreigners,' we'll lose the knowledge,
expertise and facilities to produce our own widgets and will thus
become dependent on 'foreigners' if we continue to decide we need
or want widgets. Further, we could be black-mailed by these
'foreigners' if they decide to withhold widgets from us." [*1]
To one degree or another, the dependency argument applies to
_anything_ we no longer "grow" in our own back yard, which
includes those tomatoes I get from "The Horticultural Dudes," the
ground-beef I get from my favorite neighborhood store -- and the
e-forum you are reading this on.
An inherent problem with both these arguments is, "Where does
'foreign' begin? Does it begin at the borders to the
neighborhood? The city limit? The state border? Or is it at
the national border?" The standard answer, as long as we humans
insist on grouping ourselves in such distorted and unrealistic
ways, tends to be the national border. Why not the neighborhood
instead? (Hint: This is a very good take-off point for further
discussion!!)
The U.S. founders, knowing well the propensity of governments to
protect their vested "domestic" businesses from "foreign"
competition with "foreign" states -- like competition of, say,
Virginia businesses with Maryland businesses, etc. -- and to take
their piece of the action in the form of "taxes," included the
interstate commerce clause in the constitution to prevent this
"not in the common interest" practice among the various states.
Not unexpectedly, the commerce clause has been distorted beyond
all recognition by the government cliques. See Journeyman
(5/21/2000; 15:17:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 30965) "Maybe the OLD
Genghis has been around too long," and Journeyman (06/18/00;
12:52:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 32567) "Down with Mr. Hyde!!" for
more perspective.
3. _The (fiat) currency argument_ is currently logical only
because of what will prove to be an historically brief
abbrogation of gold as a more-or-less universal standard measure
of value and the temporary abandonment of gold as the primary
world-wide medium of exchange. The fact that the substitutes for
gold (fiat currrencies) are each separate and different and each
is used primarily inside a particular nation's borders
exacerbates the two situations above -- and adds it's own
dimensions as well.
This third "fiat currency" argument wouldn't be logical at all if
we had a classical free-banking-enforced gold standard.
Unfortunately, though, this _isn't_ currently a free-banking
gold-standard world.
NOTES:
1. USA Corp. has discussed using what they call "the food
weapon," that is cutting off food shipments to the men, women,
and children in countries in dis-favor with the D.C. political
cliques.
COMING NEXT: Free-Trade V: A Fist Full Of Dollars -- _Free-trade
and the money problem_
Regards,
Journeyman
Bobbo
(09/08/00; 14:14:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 36267)
Rally continues to continue......:)
Order of the day is to buy dips as I posted last week the afternoon before the rally in XAU began. Things are looking good except for the overbought condition in the au stox. That can continue against odds and with the POG looking to start it's upside next week we should clear 54.80-55.00 resistance area. Well PDG rallied to 10 1/8 as I posted the other day and it closed today at 10 1/4. NEM didn't quite make it to 20 yet, but it did print 19 3/4 today and closed at 19 9/16. Overall a good week. Big grins all around.
Need the weekend to revisit all situations and will be here for next weeks trading. Everyone have a great weekend and keep that gbug faith. Monday could be the POG blast-off we have been waiting for.
beesting
(09/08/00; 14:03:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 36266)
Link to some legal action concerning oil futures contracts.
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/000908/n08438022_2.html
To anyone who believes manipulation can't happen in the "futures markets", please read this.....beesting.
Cavan Man
(09/08/00; 13:27:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 36265)
the Stranger
"Sturgis" is it? Good to be missed ?
Cavan Man
(09/08/00; 13:24:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 36264)
CB2 36254
Even a baby step in the right direction would be encouraging would it not? Often, incrementalism is the right course. However, one must get off the dime first.
Good evening in Europe CB2.
wolavka
(09/08/00; 13:05:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 36263)
Expect a news item this week end
Something big!!!!!!!!
techs show major moves up in:
meats
grains
gold
swiss franc
TheStranger
(9/8/2000; 12:13:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 36262)
Inflation Update
Catching up on my reading, I note that:
UAL pilots have apparently won a 42% (or thereabouts) pay raise over three years. Most of that will come up front. Do you think pilots at other airlines are paying attention?
Premiums for employer sponsored healthcare plans have risen 8% nationwide over the past 12 months. Most employers are eating the increase because times are good. Experts say this may change if the exconomy slows.
Tuition at Salt Lake Community College was raised 10% this fall. Meanwhile, Tuesday, 650 professors at Eastern Michigan University walked out after rejecting a 15% three-year pay increase.
Dow Chemical warned this morning that margins are being squeezed by higher oil prices. Here we go again. Misguided managers all over the economy are still buying into the no inflation baloney. All they have to do to solve this problem is to pass increases on to the customer. But many are afraid to do so because they think higher oil costs are anomalous. Remember when the shipping industry almost begrudgingly raised prices last winter? Unable to recognize reality, they chose to call the increases a "surcharge", as though they were only acting temporarily. Well, they were acting temporarily alright. One wonders what they will call the next round of increases.
wolavka
(9/8/2000; 12:10:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 36261)
Looks like don l. figured it out
smart money moving into gold.
Gandalf the White
(9/8/2000; 11:45:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 36260)
Thanks Beesting !
Keep them coming !
You are doing well.
<;-)
beesting
(9/8/2000; 11:25:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 36259)
iX Bourse Merger is Dead
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/000908/l08151148.html
Late breaking news.....beesting.
beesting
(9/8/2000; 11:14:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 36258)
..........And Beeeeetlebaum! (Value of Gold)
http://quote.yahoo.com/m3?u
Anybody reading this remember the old (early 1950's) pop song called "Beetlebaum"? Well these current currency valuations sure remind me of it.
Don't know how to chart valuations but lets take a look at some recent currency valuations, with with oil and Gold entered into the "race".
Leading the pack is oil at about $35 per barrel,and gaining.
Second but losing ground is Dollar/Yen.
Euro coming out of the bunch at $.8654.
British Pound losing ground at $1.42.
The rest of the currencies also losing ground as their closly tied to Dollar/Yen.
Aaaanndddd Beeetlebaum!(Gold $2.70).
Anyone who remembers this song will remember who wins the race.
Comment:
Agreeing with Trail Guide/FOA it looks like a worldwide inflationary blowoff has started.
Oil supplies are not keeping up with demand.
Oil is priced in U.S. Dollars.
Dollars are gaining in value( don't know why? Currency manipulation?) and all the other currencies are losing value in relation to the oil priced dollar,which means, "OIL" products are currently costing more in every industrialized nation on earth.
What does this lead to? Higher (fiat-paper)prices on all wages and products worldwide.You figure it out from here.....
Those in the Know are Buying Gold!!!.....beesting.
wolavka
(9/8/2000; 10:59:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 36257)
Squeeze
Lamprey, you are correct, rally starting before close today or sunday nite thru wednesday next week.
options out for oct., would like close of 277.40 + in dec.
SHIFTY
(9/8/2000; 10:56:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 36256)
Goldfields Ltd.
http://www.goldfields.co.za/
GOLD FIELDS GHANA COMPLETES ACQUISITION OF TEBEREBIE ASSETS
Johannesburg and Toronto, August 25, 2000: Gold Fields Limited [JSE "GFI", Nasdaq "GOLD"] and Repadre Capital Corporation [TSE "RPD"] are pleased to announce that Gold Fields Ghana Limited ("GFG") has completed the acquisition of the northern portion of the Teberebie concession and assets, adjacent to GFG's Tarkwa operation, from Ashanti Goldfields Limited ("Ashanti").
The total consideration paid to Ashanti at closing was a net of US$4.4 million. The assets acquired include heap leach pads and associated crushing, agglomeration and stacking facilities, as well as approximately one million ounces of gold resources.
The crushing system acquired will process over 300 000 tonnes of ore per month and, when combined with the existing Tarkwa circuit, is expected to increase total production to more than 11 million tonnes per annum. This will enable the operation to increase gold production in the near term to well over 400 000 ounces per year. In addition, with the increased throughput, contract mining costs are expected to decline.
Integration of the Teberebie heap leach processing circuit into the Tarkwa operation will begin immediately and mining output is expected to build up to approximately one million tons of ore per month by the end of 2000.
The pre-feasibility study on the Phase III expansion of the Tarkwa operation is well advanced. This study contemplates the expansion of the metallurgical complex through the construction of a screening and desliming operation as well as a mill to process deeper and less porous ore. It has the potential to further increase production at Tarkwa to close to 550 000 ounces of gold per year.
Gold Fields Ghana Limited is owned 71.1% by Gold Fields Limited and 18.9% by Repadre Capital Corporation.
lamprey_65
(9/8/2000; 10:53:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 36255)
Looking for a POG rally soon
Looks to me like the diverting price action between POG and XAU/HUI/GOX is announcing an impending POG rally as early as Monday.
Exactly when and how far is anyone's guess.
Lamprey
CoBra(too)
(9/8/2000; 10:33:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 36254)
Hello CM - re Schroeder's remarks ...
You know, eventually you'll have to decide on how to di- or is it in-vest your paper $'s into something with a future in the real world, since you've delivered real goods, adding to the trade un-balance. It's becoming like the tightrope trip from the Brandenburger Tor to the tip of the Eiffel tower - and you've still got to avoid all the Brussels sprouts, Canneloni and paellas on your journey - man (no pun intended). Best cb2
Cavan Man
(9/8/2000; 9:51:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 36253)
EU Bureaucrats
Remind me of some of the people I work with: KNUCKLEHEADSRUS
Cavan Man
(9/8/2000; 9:33:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 36252)
CB2
CB2, I think the German Chancellor's comments the last couple of days were taunts. After all, excepting oil, the weaker Euro is not really importing wholesale inflation but rather, exporting more stuff from the "Old Continent". Yes?
Cavan Man
(9/8/2000; 9:30:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 36251)
WAC
Statement from CM: "Where's the beef?"
CoBra(too)
(9/8/2000; 9:29:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 36250)
Financial Markets in EU and US seen taking off to scuba diving
in the Red Sea, as US$ climbs the wall of wrong worries.
The pathetic performance of sibling euro adversely mirrors not only its peer, but more so the pathetic dribble of more and more politicians, feeling called to comment - and therefor worsening the already grave situation. It would be time to get the euro-act together, though I have to stress again structural, legalstic and logistic (=political) inbalances in the system may not bode well for its future - What say's you FOA/TG?
Commodities, and course gold down vs strenght of US Fiat. Another battle lost the "moloch". - best cb2
wolavka
(9/8/2000; 9:13:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 36249)
More buying opportunity
nothing but stop killing.
Would expect close over 277.40 magic #.
Week end outlook looks good.
Don't get discouraged.
WAC (Wide Awake Club)
(9/8/2000; 9:10:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 36248)
Euro group to say euro undervalued -Austria finmin
http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/000908/80/aimbn.html
VERSAILLES, France, Sept 8 (Reuters) - Austrian finance minister Karl-Heinz Grasser said on Friday euro zone finance ministers meeting here would issue a statement saying the euro should be higher on foreign exchange markets.
Asked by reporters as he arrived for the talks, what the statement would say he replied "The euro must be higher."
The meeting of finance ministers from 11 euro zone countries plus Greece is due to start at 1500 GMT and concludes with a news conference at 1730 GMT.
Journeyman
(9/8/2000; 8:57:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 36247)
Hey ORO, where are ya pal? @ORO
Hope you're keep'n an eye on me to catch my mistakes!
Are you O.K.?
High regards,
Journeyman
Journeyman
(9/8/2000; 8:46:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 36246)
Chaos and world decline @goldhunter msg#: 36243, ALL
"Chaos and world decline and crash does NOT need to happen in my opinion....There is SO MUCH money out there (cash and debt) that
if only a portion of it comes into gold AGAIN, and the perception
changes from: Gold...next week $250 TO: Gold...next week $400,
that our bull market will be underway." -goldhunter msg#: 36243
EXACTLY right. But chaos and world decline are inherent in the scenario. From the Austrian perspective, what people decide to do with especially their "monetary" assets is ultimately what determines what goes up and what doesn't. In this sense, every investment fad is at base psychological --- as will be the gold bull. The thing is, as you point out, there's "SO MUCH money out there (cash and debt)" BIG-float, etc., that when the perception of the gold bull finally dawns (as the other side of the "inflation bear") people will look for places to quickly unload their depreciating paper-megabyte assets.
At that point, the accelerating inflation that will be there for everyone to see (most of the people I talk to already see it) is what will strongly influence people in deciding what to do with their more and more rapidly depreciating fiat-denominated assets. As gold begins to rise, it's barometric function with regards to inflation will reassert itself and get rapidly increasing attention which the establishment will try to divert by reversing itself claiming that gold isn't really an inflation indicator anymore.
This will all be to no avail as the mother of all katastropehaussen (crack-up booms) gets under way in earnest. That is, people will dump as much of the rapidly depreciating dollars as possible, buying anything they can. In Indonesia, this included BMWs and houses, for example. By supply and demand, the prices of all these things will rise more and more rapidly. Once people start dumping dollars, like a ram-jet engine, the faster it goes, the faster it goes faster.
The problem is determining just when that will happen. Being psychological in nature --- and the establishment fighting the perception --- makes it VERY difficult (O.K. impossible) to time the move. However, remember gold has never lost favor with the majority of earth's inhabitants. It's just here in the Western "civilized" world where that's been successfully engineered.
How quickly the world can find some work-around to replace the function of the dollar in international trade will determine just how much "Chaos and world decline" there will be.
Regards,
Journeyman
USAGOLD
(9/8/2000; 8:44:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 36245)
Quiet Friday; Quiet Rangebound Week
DAILY COMMENTARY
(9/8/00) www.USAGOLD.com . . .Gold
ticked down in the early going with the
euro and crude also headed in a southerly
direction. Dow Jones quotes Bernard
Penner of Rudolf Wolf as saying "There
doesn't seem to be a reason for a
reversal in the dollar's fortunes, so
there won't be anything to help poor old
gold loft its head up," Selling has
slowed down, however, according to Penner
with many players "wondering how far you
can push this thing into the ground
before it comes up and bites you." Penner
sees support for December gold at $274 an
ounce and resistance at $280. All in all
its a quiet Friday and an end to a week
that continued to see paper selling
capping the upside and physical buying
supporting the downside.
That's it for today, my fellow
goldmeisters. Have a nice weekend.
Had it with the tired, one-sided
anti-gold financial press mentality?
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LeSin
(9/8/2000; 6:20:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 36244)
The Near Death & Resurrection of the Gold Mining Industry
http://www.fame.org/HTM/nd.htm
The Near Death & Resurrection of the Gold Mining Industry by
Lawrence Parks dated July 17, 2000 is most interesting as are his references and footnotes. Many here may have seen it before, I did not until today. Cheers "S"
goldhunter
(9/8/2000; 6:00:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 36243)
Mr. Topaz...from yesterday
Good morning sir...Is it possible tat we may get to $650 by some of the following?
Government statistics finally tell us the true story...CPI is "adjusted" to accurately represent increases in housing, energy, transportation (sticker SHOCK!)and maybe even food (grains and meats) move up some in the next year...(Mr. Wolavka is right...Texas and neighbors are dry)
The hedgers become BUYERS...These chastized professionals are doing their jobs (risk management) for their boss (shareholders) and lately, have been right being short...If we start an uptrend in gold, these hedge mgrs. can buy back their short positions to allow their companies to more fully participate in a price run up...(Moving through $340 may be of some help)
Speculators jumping in on "the bandwagon"...Some have already posted that sometimes demand is ok near bottoms, but watch the folks pile in after the move up starts...I offer these as potential evidence:
1987 was a rough year for stocks, in Oct. "everybody" thought the market was finished when the Dow crashed to 2100...
1999 was a rough time for oil..."everybody" was on TV saying oil was going down to $5 or $6 dollars...
Guess what "(some)bodies are saying about gold? ($220 to $250)
Sometimes, "everybody" is wrong...
I feel that the oil market offers some "clues" to the precious markets, in that moving to $650 or so in gold could easily be done, as was the move in crude to $33 per barrel..."Everybody" doesn't know what happened...It happened SO FAST...
Chaos and world decline and crash does NOT need to happen in my opinion....There is SO MUCH money out there (cash and debt) that if only a portion of it comes into gold AGAIN, and the perception changes from: Gold...next week $250 TO: Gold...next week $400, that our bull market will be underway.
Incidently, some feel that Paper Gold...gold shares, gold futures, and gold futures are doomed as we go up...
My EVIDENCE is to look at OIL as a clue again...Oil stocks have moved up, all holding $20 oil calls are happy, and all holding oil futures from $20 are happy too...
I do not see the paper markets diverging from the underlying "cash" gold or silver. Oil tripled, and the NYMEX still opens...When gold triples, I fully expect COMEX and Placer Dome and Barrick stocks to open too...
auspec
(9/8/2000; 5:25:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 36242)
GOLDONOMICS 101
In the category of "pushing one's luck" this is a follow up piece regarding gold economics, you may soon come to regret encouraging me regarding posting. Even though this article is clearly an insider's guide to investing you should consult w your own advisors, as anyone remotely aware of my investing track record will know that this doesn't qualify as investment advice.
12 GOLDEN KEYS-
1. Diversification-it's very important not to load one basket with all the broken eggs. Need to spread out your funds among gold stocks, gold mutual funds, gold bullion, gold options, gold futures, and rare gold coins. OK to consider silver,diamonds,base metals,and oil, but if you put money any where else besides rent, mortgage, or Victoria Secrets' dainties you are OVERDIVERSIFIED and will only get confused.
2. Regular Monthly Investing - Key to success financially, but can be a stress to the marriage. Spouse gets comatose after enough months and lets you do what ever you want with the money. Just smile and persist. Offer to work until you are 80 years old only as a last resort.
3. Averaging Down - This only works until the investment is entirely worthless. Definitely provides momentary gratification each step of the way lower. Keep your monthly financial statements away from prying eyes.
4. Financial Advisors - DO NOT COMPROMISE ON THIS STEP. Can be done for FREE in the convenience of your own computer. Do not trust a company that does not have the word GOLD in their name. GOLDS'R US, WeBGold,Golden Sparrow, LeMetroGoldenMayer Cafe, Golden Finger, GoldMessKitCo., Gold Away, GoldSex-Tent, and Goulden Mustard are all prime reputable sites.One IMPORTANT exception to this rule- best to avoid Goldman SacKs Gold as they can be as little tricky in their final paperwork. They are, however, backed by Fort Knox and the Anglo-American Governments so you still may eventually get some form of settlement.
5. Futures/Options - This is where you lose your entire investment and possibly much more by a predetermined date. Helps for tax planning with these specific deadlines. If you like to collect things-better stick with gold mining stocks as they have been heavily collected for several years.
6. Monetary Stimulus - This is where you give your spouse some of the left over money that is not going to gold. This works every time but again only momentary gratification is achieved. Buying more coins lasts much longer.
7. Paying Taxes - That's one clear cut
advantage of being in this specialized market - every year the government will allow you to take $3,000 of these losses as a deduction. This frees you up to put more money back into this market. Live a very clean lifestyle and you may have enough longevity to use up a good portion of your total losses.
8. Monetary Strain - Happens when your 112 pound spouse goes to the Post Office to pick up a 45 pound bag of silver coins for you. Tell her (him) you're saving for a 70th wedding anniversary gift.
9. Currency Exchanges - What can I say about this one? Unless you are privy to the workings of the ESF you're better off not having ANY currencies and just staying with gold. You will have to avoid parking meters, gum ball machines, and laundromats but it's worth it with what you save in tips.
10. Professional Money Managers - These guys will invest your money until it is all gone even faster than you can do it yourself.
Not even momentary gratification with this avenue. It is almost worth it though to be able to brag to your friends about your "gunslinger" investment guru.
11. Foreign Investing - This can make or break your portfolio. I recommend gold coins from Britain, Canada, Switzerland, Australia and South Africa. Your mining stocks should be exploring in countries that your grade school geography teacher never heard of. if you see any signs promoting Ralph Nader for President you might want to avoid this continent entirely.
12. Hedge Funds - These offer excellent diversification out of the gold arena and we are especially partial to a fund named American Buttocks. With this former growth stock turned hedge fund you can dabble in the gold market without actually owning any gold. Impress your friends, connect with global insiders, be a player in the global financial control scene.
13. Timing - This makes it a "refiner's dozen". You can forget all the other rules and just use this one. When the form of gold into which you are currently diversifying gets to the lowest point - BUY -IT! When it gets real high - SELL some of it! This is so simple I can't figure out why no one thought of it until now.
This should get you started on your path to financial dependence. Make sure you have enough quarters of social security to qualify for benefits and try not to use your real name on sites like this one. Be extra nice to all your older sick relatives. Teach your children (have as many as possible) good work ethics and keep them away from this essay AT ALL COSTS.
AUSPEC
P.S. This article makes light of what has been an extreme 4 year bear market in gold related entities. Remember - the coming bull will likely be just as extreme!
GOT GOLD??!!
wolavka
(9/8/2000; 4:00:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 36241)
off topic but proof gata is correct
Corruption in U.S.A.
1987 N. Dankert applied and was awarded in 1990 Patent # 4922225 .
This patent enhanced the present CHMSL (center high mounted stop lite found on all U.S. vehicles. The present system which was patented by Dankert in 1965 was not allowed by Dept of transportation until 1985 after Dankerts' patent expired.
45,000 people are killed on U.S. Highways each year.
NHTSA (National Highway traffic Safety Admin. has seen this new enhancement and refuses to allow it. It is a crash avoidance safety feature. Before the fact, not after the fact like seat belts, air bags and abs brakes.
Off record in Washinton D.C. Dankert was told, his invention was ."greatest thing since seat belts".
So, you think the firestone tire deal is a ,"big deal"
If you think the Govternment cares about you or your loved ones, think again.
Check out the patent # 4922225 and decide for yourself.
Get gold, only because Governments are corrupt above and beyond the Corporates.
SteveH
(9/8/2000; 3:46:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 36240)
2nd
Journeyman,
US v Miller was about two bootleggers from none other than Arkansas. Two revenuers arrested them and charged one with possession of a sawed-off shot gun shorter than the legal limit (by about an inch). The charge stemmed from a dry still and lots of work having gone into trying to get a them on a wet still.
Anyway, the lower courts exonerated our two bootleggers in the hills and off they went back to do their thing. In the meantime, the US Attorney at the time decided to appeal to the Supreme Court. Since these two fellows were no where to be found, their Attorney didn't bother to file a brief countering the US Attorney's brief in the case.
That is why the Supreme Court states "lacking" any evidence that a sawed off shotgun contributes to the preservation of the militia.... In other words, they didn't have sufficient legal information to make a decision regarding the suitability of the weapon for militar puruposes.
Now, both sides of the Gun Control argument use this case to support their views. The eight cases the US Attorney points out in his letter from yesterday's post are but a few of the cases that can be cited. US v Emerson is a significant case and will soon tell if an appeals court supports the individual right nature of the 2nd Amendment. My point is that just as these eight cases point out the collective right nature, there are equally if not more that show it to be an individual right. More, most state constitutions support a strong individual right to keep and bear arms. Also, US v Verduig-Urquidez, another Supreme Court case supports the individual rights nature of the 2nd Amendment.
As I see it, the C-G government chooses to find support for its own views of guns and disregards the historical and opposite fundamental rights nature of the 2nd. A significant case is US v Cruikshank that states the RKBA is so fundamental that it doesn't need the Constitution for its existence and that the 2nd merely protects the RKBA against Congressional Infringment. Sadly, Congress doesn't take a more proactive approach by preventing others from infringing.
Journeyman
(9/8/2000; 1:36:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 36239)
RTKABA @SHIFTY (09/07/00; 23:50:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 36234)
REMEMBER: As people should know, the Bill of Rights doesn't grant us any
rights we don't already have, it only verifies some of the ones we
already have separately and independently of both the grab-it AND the
Constitution. The Second Amendment was added particularly to prevent
what those low-life scum liars are now trying to do. It's purpose
certainly was NOT to grant us our pre-existing rights. See the Ninth
Amendment for a hint.
Further, as has often been ruled, the U.S. Grab-it was constituted as
having ENUMERATED powers, meaning it can do only what it is EXPRESSLY
given specific powers to do in writing in the U.S. Constitution or
amendments to said document. Let's suppose --- for the sake of argument
ONLY --- that the Second Amendment, as the traitorous scum claim,
doesn't grant us citizens the right to "keep and bear arms." OK,
so-what. It certainly doesn't authorize THEM to take our weapons
either. Even their most accomplished Clintonesque prevaricators
wouldn't try to argue that. So just where in the Constitution does it
enumerate their power to regulate, steal, or otherwise scum-up or mess
with our weapons? Please show me the SPECIFIC LANGUAGE that expressly
bestows this power on those poor excuses for pond-scum rejects.
Regards, J.
Hard assets...Easy access
(9/8/2000; 1:27:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 36238)
Centennial Precious Metals, Inc.
http://www.usagold.com/ProductsPage.html
Many feel that the current economic climate portends rising gold prices. If so, you will want to be properly positioned to profit from the trend. For others, especially in potentially volatile times, the preservation of wealth is paramount. In this respect, the role of gold is well known. Whether to profit or to preserve, perhaps the most comfortable portfolio approach is embodied in Robert Frost's poetry: "We will go with you, O wind!"
Diversify. And let the winds carry us where they may.
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Hard assets...Easy access
(9/8/2000; 1:22:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 36237)
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SHIFTY
(9/8/2000; 0:11:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 36236)
(No Subject)
Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
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I wonder what part of "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" they don't understand?
$hifty
tedw
(9/8/2000; 0:10:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 36235)
FAZ Article and price of oil
http://www.usagold.com
I, too , read the FAZ article at lemetropolecafe.com.One good point that was made was GATA's failure to take legal action. If there is sufficient PROOF of Gold Market manipulation then GATA should take action. If there isnt,then GATA should frankly state that there is not enough proof to litigate. The process of litigation itself could uncover additional evidence via discovery.What are they waiting for?
Price of Oil. I for one do not think the current high price of oil is coincidental with the hubbub over Jersualem. A high price of oil puts the Arabs in a strong barganing position to have the United States pressure Isreal. I predict no relief in sight until the Arabs get what they want. Call it blackmail if you want.
The storm clouds are on the horizon.
ViewYesterday's Discussion.
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