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Welcome to the USAGOLD Gold Discussion Archives. The archives of this gold discussion forum are a treasure trove of information to educate investors about protecting their wealth through portfolio diversification with private gold ownership. The discussion forum also covers the wider issues of the past, present, and future role of gold in international monetary policy and the dynamics of the modern gold markets...

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Archives date back to September 22, 1998

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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 10/8/2000
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

(Yesterday's Discussion.)

megatron (10/08/00; 23:03:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 38593)
Taurus
Your post about learning and knowledge was refreshing although I'm sure we both know very 'smart' people who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. Let me add that any 'learning' is almost useless unless it's attached to a rational mind. Other wise it's just mis-appropriated energy.

justamereBear (10/08/00; 23:01:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 38592)
Sancho 38562

Yes, We do not seem to be exempt from war & disease.

SteveH (10/08/00; 22:06:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 38591)
Pair of dimes again
www.kitco.com
Our currency may not be officially backed by gold but it is valued to gold which is valued to oil. The below only shows a partial picture -- oh so misleading, eh?

Date: Sun Oct 08 2000 20:52
sharefin (Could this be true?) ID#284255:
Copyright � 2000 sharefin/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
In the past, people have invested in precious metals as a method for storing value when a currency was losing its value. But today, our currency is no longer backed by gold per se. It is backed by the gross domestic production of the nation. Now there are many other reasons people have for investing in precious metals. For the last several years, the consumption of gold, silver, platinum and palladium has far exceeded its production. This is coupled by the fact that the market price of these precious metals has been kept relatively low by the selling of gold reserves by central banks. In addition to this, rich foreign investors from developing countries have been increasingly looking for an investment to store away their personal wealth. They are moving out of their governments, which are often in the hands of corrupt politicians. It would take a global recession to slow the demand for gold and other such precious metals. Precious metals have long been looked to as the repositories of ***absolute value*** -- not the relative value of paper currency.

http://www.itds.treas.gov/ITDS/ITTA/prec_metals.htm

SteveH (10/08/00; 21:51:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 38590)
RossL
I believe the conclusion to be drawn from gm of gold v oil is that the price of gold has been kept OR the price of oil has been kept to within a very narrow range of one to the other such that the correlation is quite high. Any statisticians may want to give us a correlation of oil to gold and a standard deviation on the grams to gold thing.
Which controls the other I believe depends on who has fallen behind. Gold does seem to be the leading indicator. Oil is leading now though.

Bottom line. OIL can buy gold anytime and in any market as the market is kept such that 1gm (approx.) of gold buys 1 barrel. How convenient.

SteveH (10/08/00; 21:45:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 38589)
RossL
Help us out. How do you derive Grams of gold for oil chart?

Can you extend all your charts into 2000 as of today? This is important. I believe we will see a tremendous divergence in the POO v POG.

Taurus (10/08/00; 20:14:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 38588)
justamereBear 38572 & beesting 38271
Sir justamereBear,
Thank you. Very flattering.

Sir beesting,
Thank you, too. You cleared up what was to me a mystery.

Taurus

Journeyman (10/08/00; 20:04:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 38587)
What I prefer @Giovanni Doro

Sir Doro,

I PREFER free banking and believe this would inevitably lead back to a defacto gold standard, with other types of private debt circulating, down to and including Uncle Joe's IOU written on the back of that envelope, most discounted based on the expectations of delivery unique to each author of each IOU.

As Austrian economists will tell you, except for fiat currencies, things traditionally (pre 1933) used as money had other uses as well. Thus they served all their several uses, use as a medium of exchange only one of them.

Of course, it could be argued that fiat also has other uses --- as wall (and another kind of) paper for example.

Regards,
Journeyman

Giovanni Dioro (10/08/00; 19:53:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 38586)
Gold is a C ommodity
Journeyman would you rather have money that is a commodity being tangible and valuable or would you rather have money that is intrinsically worthless and whose value is subject to the manipulations and machinations of those who print it and set the interest rate thereof?

Journeyman (10/08/00; 19:38:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 38585)
A slightly different take on gold is money and a commodity @SteveH, ALL

How about this verbal construction:

Gold is a commodity that many people around the world stubbornly insist on using as money too.

Regards,
Journeyman

lamprey_65 (10/08/00; 19:26:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 38584)
Middle East Tensions
Seems to me Arafat is playing a very dangerous game of chicken...

Something like, "You give us what we want, or we resort to violence."

I don't see this working. These two peoples, IMHO, just are too far apart to live in peace. Sometimes the truth isn't pretty.

Journeyman (10/08/00; 19:23:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 38583)
CB's vs. the market according to Greenspan @justamereBear msg#: 38559

justamere,

Your adage, "'(commercial) Bank' traders cannot go head to head with the central banks, and central banks cannot go head to head with the market" reminded me of an A. Greenspan quote:

"That we, meaning the monetary authorities, the Fed and
the Treasury, can somehow alter the value of a currency
in a significant manner when fundamentals are going in
the opposite direction is an illusion. We cannot." -Alan
Greenspan, Semi-annual Humphrey-Hawkins Testimony to US
House, July 22, 1998, 12:52 PM EDT

Regards,
Journeyman

714 (10/08/00; 18:45:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 38582)
Trail Guide 38517
Just caught your post from yesterday and I need to correct a few matters:

First, Aramco's royalties to the Saudi king and his government were pegged to gold, but not always paid in gold. In fact, it appears that the Saudi government preferred dollars over gold for their royalties when it began to insist on royalty payments in US$ in 1940 at the dollar/gold exchange rate to be had in Jedda, which was twice as high as that in NY, largely due to the war and subsequent closure of the London gold market. This became an ongoing issue until settled in the late 40's.

Second, once the royalty was paid by Aramco to the Saudi government, the oil belonged to Aramco, which at that time was owned by Standard Oil of Texas and Standard Oil of California, and undoubtably it was sold, at full market value, for currency, not gold, with the proceeds flowing to American oil company coffers. Of course, today Aramco is largely owned by the Saudis and can no longer really be considered an American oil company.

Third, I only meant to imply that IF oil was sold for gold, it would be in that range you spoke of. I'm finding no evidence whatsoever that gold ever bought oil. It only paid the royalties...sometimes.

I'll have this material uploaded in the next few days as I'm working out a couple of problems with a web server provider.

Thanks.

Black Blade (10/08/00; 18:18:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 38581)
Gold market "time bomb" theory blasted by South African
http://m1.mny.co.za/MGGold.nsf/Current/4225685F0043D1B24225697000538DC5?OpenDocument
The author, Daan Joubert, an independent technical analyst in South Africa, has responded to "Mr Gold's" article (Jim Sinclair) in a point by point style. The comments in italics are, therefore, key extracts from Jim Sinclair's article which theMiningweb.com headlined: "Gold Market Sitting On A Time Bomb" and are followed by Daan Joubert's replies. Enjoy: At the URL above

Interesting. - Black Blade

RossL (10/08/00; 17:54:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 38580)
Sir HBM
http://home.columbus.rr.com/rossl/hbm.htm

The newest chart is using the same inflation adjusted values. If you believe this approach is in error, then let me know.

RossL (10/08/00; 17:50:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 38579)
Chart
http://home.columbus.rr.com/rossl/hbm.htm

Sir RAP, your requested chart is up. What do you make of all this?

Hill Billy Mitchell (10/08/00; 17:49:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 38578)
RAP # 38577
http://home.columbus.rr.com/rossl/hbm.htm
Sir

I will give your request some serious consideration. I am still trying to sell the brains on this forum with the notion that the top chart,"CUMULATIVE REAL PRICE " is very precise in giving the relationship between Oil and Gold prices. The whole point of using constant 1999 dollart is to remove the change in the value of the dollar distortion from the equation.Of course we have the premise that the change in the value of the dollar pulled from consumer price indices over the last 20 years is correct. That premise could very well be wrong, simply because the numbers generate from a lying, stealing, cheating government.

Maybe your suggestion would be an improvement. It certainly would be interesting to compare such a chart with the "CUMULATIVE REAL PRICE" chart and the "X 20 / X 500 chart.

My wife is calling me to a true commitment and I must go.
Will see.

HBM

RAP (10/08/00; 17:18:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 38577)
Sir Lurker!
http://home.columbus.rr.com/rossl/hbm.htm
I think it would be of interest to all if you could take each point in time and convert oil, using the dollar price at that time, into grams of gold, and plot oil vs gold directly. This would remove the value of the dollar from the equation, for a true value of oil in terms of gold.
A chart I would be very interested in seeing.
Back to being a real lurker.
RAP

Giovanni Dioro (10/08/00; 16:29:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 38576)
euro/usd
When the euro came out the ECB decided to set it at a very low interest rate. They have set a course to let the euro slide in currency markets. It is my opinion that insiders must have known they would set a weak euro policy and it has likely been exploited in the carry-trade. As has been pointed out to me, the rise in rates of the euro has minimalised the effectual advantages of the rate differential, but nevertheless the ECB has been running a weak euro policy.

I believe I read that european central banks hold around $300 billion in US financial instruments. This would go beyond normal reserves and gives credence to the weak euro/strong dollar policy that has unfolded in the past couple of years now.

As to the dollar, it is fundamentally weak and the turnaround may very well be near. Trail Guide said yesterday that Greenspan wants a weaker dollar to get the trade deficit to a more reasonable level. Well he should very well get a weaker dollar exactly because of the trade deficit. America has rung up a total of roughly $1 Trillion dollars in its trade deficit over the past 3 years. There will be repercussions from this, which is of course a much weaker dollar in the years to come.

Chrusos (10/08/00; 15:39:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 38575)
Bubble flow chart and Israel news
http://www.financialsense.com/series2/gathering.htm
To all friends on the forum - WOW things are really hotting up. Multiple eventsoccurring simultaneously in every sensitive area that could quickly shatter euphoria :-
# Body slams on US indexes
# Mid East on brink of war
# Oil crisis
# Credit crisis
# Dollar crisis
# A 7.3 quake in Japan (100 injured - miraculously no
deaths)

Does anyone remember ORO's credit priming machine? Well there's a very comprehensive Bubble Flow Chart at the above link - I'm sure most of us could speak for a considerable time (with varying levels of expertise!) on this as every part of the equation is brought in. One glaring ommission is gold. Although one could argue that, at this point in time, it is off the radar and completely dormant.

The financial storm articles at the link, for those who haven't read them, are well worth a read.

For those friends of Israel there is an excellent site giving the conservative picture to the violence at

http://www.gamla.org.il/english/index.htm

Like how did all the stones get to the mosque on the first - well they were all conveniently stacked in heaps ready for stoning the Jews at the wailing wall. Arafats no 2 has carefully orchestrated in person the various actions.

And then there is the tragic shooting of the little boy Mohammed. Who did it? - there are a number of questions raised on the net as to whether it was the IDF eg see

http://www.hallindseyoracle.com/WorldNewsPageDetail101.html

Bill Koenig has a christian site which covers the conflict from some amazing news sources and this where I first found Gamla. The URL is

http://www.watch.org/articles.html?mcat=1

As TG likes to say "We shall watch this unfold together - No?"

Shalom
Chrusos

TownCrier (10/8/2000; 15:19:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 38574)
This link was forwarded to The Tower by carrier pigeon...Thanks!
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2000/1008/breaking23.htm
HEADLINE: Santer calls for oil to be priced in euros

At a Gulf-Euro conference in Dubai, the former president of the European Commission, Jacques Santer, urged the Gulf oil exporters to price crude in euros as a means of stabilizing the oil market and reducing effects from US foreign policy. He remind his listeners that Europe was the world's biggest oil importer, and also said, "Trust and partnership spirit between the Union and the GCC could well increase if we were to consider trading the barrel in the euro" (instead of the dollar). Against the euro's recent track record on the foreign exchange market, Mr. Santer offered, "My contention is that the euro will move again toward parity with the US dollar, even if it may take some time, by gradual extension of the euro in international transactions."

These are important "political" rumblings that go well beyond the recent announcements by Iraq which might otherwise tend to be dismissed in the mainstream as little more than anti-U.S. posturing by a noisy nation.

Hill Billy Mitchell (10/8/2000; 15:15:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 38573)
Lurking test

Lurk, lurk!

justamereBear (10/8/2000; 13:55:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 38572)
Taurus 38557

WOW!!! Happily I have inadvertently been practicing a good deal of what of what you preach, but have never expressed it so thoughtfully and eloquently. Add my voice to that of yours and Hi-Hat immediately following. Knowledge is power. But then, that was part of the reason I was posting, to promote a bit of a "WHAT IF" game and thus gain (for myself and others) knowledge.

Lots of food for thought which demands I give it the time and attention it deserves. Saved it.

Thank you.

PS also got a real chuckle out of some of your phraseology.

PPS Not sure how strongly I would recommend valuables in any bank vault AFTER a financial meltdown. Some of my research suggests that occasionally the individual custodian of the other key to the bank vault, feels he has a "partnership feeling" toward you, and wants a cut of whatever is in there, like 50%.

SHIFTY (10/8/2000; 13:48:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 38571)
Periodic Ponzi Update PPU
http://home.columbus.rr.com/rossl/gold.htm
Nasdaq 3,361.01 + Dow 10,596.54 = 13,957.55 divide by 2 = 6978.77 Ponzi

Down 183.10 Ponzi points!

I see that Sir RossL has updated the Ponzi chart. Thank you

Hill Billy Mitchell : I too thought we may have seen a dip to a new Ponzi low on Friday , but a quick check told me not yet.

When I stopped posting the ponzi on a daily basis I got into the habit of doing it on Sunday's to refresh everyone for the next week of market mayhem.
Tomorrow is a Holiday in the USA, but will the rest of the world be trading tonight? I think so.
I did not get to read any of yesterdays posts till late last night. I read till 4:00 am EST. Wow this place was busy.
Lots of great posts.
I have to run to Daytona for an hour or so. Hope to find more good stuff here when I get back.

$hifty

tedw (10/8/2000; 13:22:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 38570)
The Middle East
http://www.usagold.com

Old Golds post lacks a little objectivity.

Ive read news reports that an arab orgnization is offering $300 per wound and $2000 for children martyred in the conflict.

The first casualty in any war is the truth.

oldgold (10/8/2000; 12:30:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 38569)
Middle east
What is happening now in the Mideast is not war (although that could develop) but a massacre of unarmed Palestinians by heavily armed Israel troops. Rocks against tanks and machine guns is not a war but murder plain and simple.

This will not help gold at all BTW -- rather the US dollar.

ORGY OF VIOLENCE AND DEATH LOOMS

"If the Arab world is heading for war
there is nothing (we) can do."
Shimon Peres - today

MID-EAST REALITIES - www.MiddleEast.Org - Washington - 10?07 - 3:30pm
Clinton canceled his Midwest fundraisers today to return to the White
House
and the Middle East crisis. The Israeli Cabinet is meeting in emergency
session
this evening at the Defense Ministry in Tel Aviv. The Lebanese
government has
been warned Beirut will be bombed, and Syria too has been put on notice.
Meanwhile
the Palestinians have finally thrown the Israelis completely out of
Nablus, making
the Israelis fear, and rightly so, that Hebron and Gaza are next...and
then....
And just in the last few hours Barak has given Arafat a public ultimatum
--
end the violence within 48-hours or else!
The "or else" may well be a "national unity government", Ariel Sharon
as
Defense Minister, and a new wave of violent repression, the unleashing of
Israel's
military even more in the occupied territories and again Lebanon. If this
is
what the Israelis are now considering, then it is likely sooner rather
than later
because in the midst of an election now just 4 weeks away American
politicians
can be counted on not only to rally to Israel's side but to box themselves
in
so that post-election they will have little choice but to keep playing by
Israel's
rules.
With emotions so raw a growing orgy of violence may be ahead, maybe
quite
soon. The Arab world remains too weak, scared, divided, and compromised,
to
actually take Israel on directly. The Arab "client regimes" -- mostly
comprised
of persons only marginally competents with far too many thugs and cowards
--
leaves that to the Palestinian "Children of the Stones". But a great many
political
fires can break out in various locations if today's situation escalates
still
further; and some of them may not be easily extinguished.
As for the Israelis, one Minister actually had the chutzpah to today
roar
at the Lebanese "return our kids" -- referring to the 3 soldiers captured
by
Hezbollah earlier today. This while the Israelis are still wantonly
killing
Palestinian kids, with Israeli snipers shooting in cold blood. Other
Israeli
officials have condemned as
"kidnapping" Hezbollah's actions...apparently obvious that they did in
fact kidnap
Hezbollah leaders years ago who are still in Israeli prisons, including
Sheik
Obeid. Plus Mordechai Vanunu, one of their own, lured from London and
kidnapped
from Rome. And still other Israelis have publicly insisted that Lebanon
enforced
U.N. Security Council Resolution 425, the very resolution they defied for
20
years, not to mention so many other Security Council resolutions they
continue
to defy to this day.

HEZBOLLAH WARNS ISRAEL

BEIRUT, Lebanon, Oct. 7 (UPI 11:18 ET) -- The Hezbollah movement warned
Israel
Saturday of any "foolish action" against Lebanon to try to gain the
freedom
of three of its soldiers who were captured earlier by the Muslim
guerrillas
on the Lebanese-Israeli border.

"Any aggression on Lebanon under any pretext will be a foolish action and
will be reciprocated by targeting (Israeli) soldiers and settlers," said a
Hezbollah statement released in Beirut. "And soldier-prisoners will remain
in our hands until achieving the goals. The enemy (Israel) has no other
option."

Hezbollah was responding to reported threats made by Israel against
Lebanon if its soldiers who were captured by Hezbollah earlier Saturday
were
not freed.

"It is time the Zionists learn that Lebanon is the grave of invaders and
the (Hezbollah) resistance is not terrorized by threats," the statement
said.

Hezbollah-run "Al Manar" television station said hundreds of the group's
followers were gathering in Beirut's eastern suburbs for a demonstration
"of
joy" for the detention of the Israeli soldiers.

The soldiers were seized during clashes between Hezbollah guerrillas and
Israeli troops across the border that followed the killing of two
Palestinian demonstrators by Israeli fire on the Lebanese-Israeli border.
About 20 other Palestinians were injured. The nearly 1,800 Palestinian
demonstrators, who came from various refugee camps in Beirut and south
Lebanon, were protesting the Israeli "massacres" against the Palestinians
in
the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Rolf Knutsson, personal representative of U.N. Secretary-General Kofi
Annan, expressed "grave concern" for the cross-border exchange of fire and
appealed on all concerned parties to exert "maximum restraint, especially
at
this time of unrest and tension in the occupied (Palestinian)
territories."

Knutsson, in a statement released in Beirut, said Lebanese Prime Minister
Selim Hoss assured him that the Beirut government "would take action with
a
view to bringing the situation under control."

The U.N. envoy said he told Hoss during a telephone contact that the
Lebanese authorities should not "lose time in asserying their full and
effective control of the liberated area of south Lebanon, particularly
along
the Blue Line" that was set by the U.N. to confirm Israeli pullout "in
order
to avoid further tragic events."

Hoss said Saturday's violence "is extremely regretful and constitutes a
condemnation to Israel for firing at unarmed civilians, keeping Lebanese
detainees and still occupying Lebanese land in the Shabaa farms."

"As for Jerusalem, everybody knows that it will remain a source of
instability in the whole region until rights are restored and the holy
city
regains its Arab identity," he said in a statement. "We repeatedly said
that
Jerusalem is not the cause of the Palestinian people only but is an Arab
cause which concern all Arabs, Muslims and Christians."

Hoss said it was time for the international community "to realize these
realities and the big countries to pressure Israel to restraint it from
further aggressions and injustice."

Earlier, a Hezbollah statement said its guerrillas attacked several
Israeli positions in the Shabaa farms, which was not evacuated by Israel
when it pulled out its troops from south Lebanon on May 24 ending 22 years
of occupation.

"They captured many Zionist soldiers and succeeded in evacuating them
from
the area of operations to a safe place," said the statement. It later
confirmed that three Israeli soldiers were seized.

The Hezbollah statement said the group "offers this operation to all
Jerusalem martyrs," including the 12-year old Palestinian boy, Mohammed
Durra, who was killed in his father's embrace by Israeli soldiers in Gaza
last Saturday.

The statement said it also came "to fulfill Hezbollah promises to
liberate
all (Lebanese) detainees, every inch of occupied Lebanese territories and
to
show solidarity with the Palestinian people." It pledged to continue the
"Jihad" (armed struggle) until the liberation of Jerusalem.

Earlier, Israeli forces and Hezbollah guerrillas exchanged bombardment
across the Lebanese-Israeli border in a first such and most dangerous
incident since the Israeli withdrawal.

Security sources reported "fierce clashes" between the two parties in the
border area of the Shabaa farms.

Israeli forces fired shells on the Lebanese side of the Shabaa farms and
the outskirts of the village of Kfar Shouba, prompting Hezbollah
guerrillas
to fire back with mortars, Katyusha rockets and rocket-propelled grenades
on
Israeli posts on the other side of the fence.

The sources said Hezbollah-Israeli clashes continued "with all kind of
weapons" and Lebanese inhabitants of Shabaa sought refuge in basements and
shelters.

ISRAEL WARNS LEBANON, SYRIA

By JOSHUA BRILLIANT

TEL AVIV, Israel, Oct. 7 (UPI - 14:39ET) - Israel has launched an
intensive
diplomatic effort to secure the release of three soldiers taken Saturday
afternoon while its helicopters carried sorties across the border and
airlifted troops to the front.

The Israeli cabinet is scheduled to hold an emergency session at 9 p.m.
at
the Defense Ministry in Tel Aviv to decide on its next steps.

Prime Minister Ehud Barak warned Lebanon "to immediately cease all
hostile
activities on Israel's northern border, and impose its authority upon all
the organizations operating along the border."

Deputy Defense Minister Ephraim Sneh said Israel considers Syria to bear
prime responsibility.

"The Syrian regime is the dominant and responsible force in Lebanon. It
is
the one who makes decision and we shall treat it accordingly," he said.

The warning was issued after Hezbollah gunmen ambushed an Israeli patrol
and took three soldiers hostage. The Qatari television station Al-Jezirra
said Hezbollah forces killed other soldiers in the patrol, but the Israel
Defense Forces spokesman denied the report.

Second Channel TV and Israel Radio said the gunmen fired mortars at
several IDF positions in the area and the soldiers drove to the border to
check it. Hezbollah gunmen, who had parked their car just across the
border,
opened fire, crossed the border fence, took the soldiers, and sped away.

Last May, Israel withdrew its troops from Lebanon to a line the United
Nations determined. Since then, the border has been quiet except for
stoning
incidents. An Israeli general recently told UPI the air force has also
ceased intelligence sorties over Lebanon.

Barak's warning was not explicit as it was issued before the IDF
confirmed
the news of the seized soldiers.

Reports from Lebanon said Israel threatened to bomb Beirut unless the
soldiers are returned within a given deadline but Sneh said, "We haven't
set
an ultimatum."

The Foreign Ministry said that acting Foreign Minister Shlomo Ben-Ami
talked to U.S. National Security advisor Samuel (Sandy) Berger, Secretary
of
State Madeleine Albright, and the U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations
Richard Holbrooke. He asked Washington to relay its messages to Beirut and
Damascus.

Cabinet Secretary Yaakov Herzog told UPI that Israel has been in touch
also with United Nations Secretary General Kofi Annan and the
International
Red Cross demanding the soldiers' release.

The acting Foreign Minister has instructed the Israeli representatives at
the United Nations to sharply protest the attack.

The Foreign Ministry's spokesman said, "Lebanon is responsible for
maintaining quiet along the northern border, and the actions today
represent
a blatant violation of U.N. Security Council Resolution 425, and an act of
provocation."

The spokesman's statement called upon the Security Council to condemn the
attack and "oblige Lebanon to adhere to international law."

The army statement that eventually reported the missing soldiers said,
"Three soldiers in operational activity along Israel's northern border
fence
were kidnapped this afternoon by a Lebanese group, in all likelihood the
Hezbollah."

The incident occurred in the Mount Dov area in the northern Golan Heights
near the Lebanese border, the statement said.

"The IDF will make every effort to track the kidnapped soldiers and bring
them home safely," the statement added.

The Air Force has sent attack helicopters into the area in an apparent
bid
to track the Hezbollah men and the Israeli soldiers. CH-53 helicopters
have
been airlifting troops to the Mount Dov area in preparation for a possible
cross-border operation.

Hezbollah, in a statement issued in Beirut, warned Israel that, "Any
aggression on Lebanon under any pretext will be a foolish action and will
be
reciprocated by targeting (Israeli) soldiers and settlers."

The Israeli statement said the government "intends to take decisive
action
in order to ensure the safety is Israel's northern towns and villages."

Israel said it views "with the utmost severity any violation of the calm
that has existed on the northern border since the IDF's withdrawal from
Lebanon."

Former Prime Minister and Nobel Peace laureate Shimon Peres, who has
often
been optimistic over the peace process said Saturday night: "If the Arab
world is heading for war there is nothing (we) can do."

MiD-EasT RealitieS - www.MiddleEast.Org
Phone: 202 362-5266 Fax: 815 366-0800
Email: MER@MiddleEast.Org

To subscriibe email to MERLIST@MiddleEast.Org with subject SUBSCRIBE
To unsubscribe email to MERLIST@MiddleEast.Org with subject UNSUBSCRIBE

Black Blade (10/8/2000; 12:26:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 38568)
A Modest Proposal by Jonathan Swift
A Nice Reading Assignment for a Sunday, Hmmmm.....
First Published in 1729

A MODEST PROPOSAL FOR PREVENTING THE CHILDREN OF POOR PEOPLE IN IRELAND FROM BEING A BURDEN TO THEIR PARENTS OR COUNTRY, AND FOR MAKING THEM BENEFICIAL TO THE PUBLIC

It is a melancholy object to those who walk through this great town or travel in the country, when they see the streets, the roads, and cabin doors, crowded with beggars of the female sex, followed by three, four, or six children, all in rags and importuning every passenger for an alms. These mothers, instead of being able to work for their honest livelihood, are forced to employ all their time in strolling to beg sustenance for their helpless infants: who as they grow up either turn thieves for want of work, or leave their dear native country to fight for the Pretender in Spain, or sell themselves to the Barbadoes.

I think it is agreed by all parties that this prodigious number of children in the arms, or on the backs, or at the heels of their mothers, and frequently of their fathers, is in the present deplorable state of the kingdom a very great additional grievance; and, therefore, whoever could find out a fair, cheap, and easy method of making these children sound, useful members of the commonwealth, would deserve so well of the public as to have his statue set up for a preserver of the nation.

But my intention is very far from being confined to provide only for the children of professed beggars; it is of a much greater extent, and shall take in the whole number of infants at a certain age who are born of parents in effect as little able to support them as those who demand our charity in the streets.

As to my own part, having turned my thoughts for many years upon this important subject, and maturely weighed the several schemes of other projectors, I have always found them grossly mistaken in the computation. It is true, a child just dropped from its dam may be supported by her milk for a solar year, with little other nourishment; at most not above the value of 2s., which the mother may certainly get, or the value in scraps, by her lawful occupation of begging; and it is exactly at one year old that I propose to provide for them in such a manner as instead of being a charge upon their parents or the parish, or wanting food and raiment for the rest of their lives, they shall on the contrary contribute to the feeding, and partly to the clothing, of many thousands.

There is likewise another great advantage in my scheme, that it will prevent those voluntary abortions, and that horrid practice of women murdering their bastard children, alas! too frequent among us! sacrificing the poor innocent babes I doubt more to avoid the expense than the shame, which would move tears and pity in the most savage and inhuman breast.

The number of souls in this kingdom being usually reckoned one million and a half, of these I calculate there may be about two hundred thousand couple whose wives are breeders; from which number I subtract thirty thousand couples who are able to maintain their own children, although I apprehend there cannot be so many, under the present distresses of the kingdom; but this being granted, there will remain an hundred and seventy thousand breeders. I again subtract fifty thousand for those women who miscarry, or whose children die by accident or disease within the year. There only remains one hundred and twenty thousand children of poor parents annually born: the question therefore is, how this number shall be reared and provided for, which, as I have already said, under the present situation of affairs, is utterly impossible by all the methods hitherto proposed. For we can neither employ them in handicraft or agriculture; we neither build houses (I mean in the country) nor cultivate land: they can very seldom pick up a livelihood by stealing, till they arrive at six years old, except where they are of towardly parts, although I confess they learn the rudiments much earlier, during which time, they can however be properly looked upon only as probationers, as I have been informed by a principal gentleman in the county of Cavan, who protested to me that he never knew above one or two instances under the age of six, even in a part of the kingdom so renowned for the quickest proficiency in that art.

I am assured by our merchants, that a boy or a girl before twelve years old is no salable commodity; and even when they come to this age they will not yield above three pounds, or three pounds and half-a-crown at most on the exchange; which cannot turn to account either to the parents or kingdom, the charge of nutriment and rags having been at least four times that value.

I shall now therefore humbly propose my own thoughts, which I hope will not be liable to the least objection.

I have been assured by a very knowing American of my acquaintance in London, that a young healthy child well nursed is at a year old a most delicious, nourishing, and wholesome food, whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled; and I make no doubt that it will equally serve in a fricassee or a ragout.

I do therefore humbly offer it to public consideration that of the hundred and twenty thousand children already computed, twenty thousand may be reserved for breed, whereof only one-fourth part to be males; which is more than we allow to sheep, black cattle or swine; and my reason is, that these children are seldom the fruits of marriage, a circumstance not much regarded by our savages, therefore one male will be sufficient to serve four females. That the remaining hundred thousand may, at a year old, be offered in the sale to the persons of quality and fortune through the kingdom; always advising the mother to let them suck plentifully in the last month, so as to render them plump and fat for a good table. A child will make two dishes at an entertainment for friends; and when the family dines alone, the fore or hind quarter will make a reasonable dish, and seasoned with a little pepper or salt will be very good boiled on the fourth day, especially in winter.

I have reckoned upon a medium that a child just born will weigh 12 pounds, and in a solar year, if tolerably nursed, increaseth to 28 pounds.

I grant this food will be somewhat dear, and therefore very proper for landlords, who, as they have already devoured most of the parents, seem to have the best title to the children.

Infant's flesh will be in season throughout the year, but more plentiful in March, and a little before and after; for we are told by a grave author, an eminent French physician, that fish being a prolific diet, there are more children born in Roman Catholic countries about nine months after Lent than at any other season; therefore, reckoning a year after Lent, the markets will be more glutted than usual, because the number of popish infants is at least three to one in this kingdom: and therefore it will have one other collateral advantage, by lessening the number of papists among us.

I have already computed the charge of nursing a beggar's child (in which list I reckon all cottagers, laborers, and four-fifths of the farmers) to be about two shillings per annum, rags included; and I believe no gentleman would repine to give ten shillings for the carcass of a good fat child, which, as I have said, will make four dishes of excellent nutritive meat, when he hath only some particular friend or his own family to dine with him. Thus the squire will learn to be a good landlord, and grow popular among his tenants; the mother will have eight shillings net profit, and be fit for work till she produces another child.

Those who are more thrifty (as I must confess the times require) may flay the carcass; the skin of which artificially dressed will make admirable gloves for ladies, and summer boots for fine gentlemen.

As to our city of Dublin, shambles may be appointed for this purpose in the most convenient parts of it, and butchers we may be assured will not be wanting; although I rather recommend buying the children alive, and dressing them hot from the knife, as we do roasting pigs.

A very worthy person, a true lover of his country, and whose virtues I highly esteem, was lately pleased in discoursing on this matter to offer a refinement upon my scheme. He said that many gentlemen of this kingdom, having of late destroyed their deer, he conceived that the want of venison might be well supplied by the bodies of young lads and maidens, not exceeding fourteen years of age nor under twelve; so great a number of both sexes in every country being now ready to starve for want of work and service; and these to be disposed of by their parents, if alive, or otherwise by their nearest relations. But with due deference to so excellent a friend and so deserving a patriot, I cannot be altogether in his sentiments; for as to the males, my American acquaintance assured me, from frequent experience, that their flesh was generally tough and lean,
like that of our schoolboys by continual exercise, and their taste disagreeable; and to fatten them would not answer the charge. Then as to the females, it would, I think, with humble submission be a loss to the public, because they soon would become breeders themselves; and besides, it is not improbable that some scrupulous people might be apt to censure such a practice (although indeed very unjustly), as a little bordering upon cruelty; which, I confess, hath always been with me the strongest objection against any project, however so well intended.

But in order to justify my friend, he confessed that this expedient was put into his head by the famous Psalmanazar, a native of the island Formosa, who came from thence to London above twenty years ago, and in conversation told my friend, that in his country when any young person happened to be put to death, the executioner sold the carcass to persons of quality as a prime dainty; and that in his time the body of a plump girl of fifteen, who was crucified for an attempt to poison the emperor, was sold to his imperial majesty's prime minister of state, and other great mandarins of the court, in joints from the gibbet, at four hundred crowns. Neither indeed can I deny, that if the same use were made of several plump young girls in this town, who without one single groat to their fortunes cannot stir abroad without a chair, and appear at playhouse and assemblies in foreign fineries which they never will pay for, the kingdom would not be the worse.

Some persons of a desponding spirit are in great concern about that vast number of poor people, who are aged, diseased, or maimed, and I have been desired to employ my thoughts what course may be taken to ease the nation of so grievous an encumbrance. But I am not in the least pain upon that matter, because it is very well known that they are every day dying and rotting by cold and famine, and filth and vermin, as fast as can be reasonably expected. And as to the young laborers, they are now in as hopeful a condition; they cannot get work, and consequently pine away for want of nourishment, to a degree that if at any time they are accidentally hired to common labor, they have not strength to perform it; and thus the country and themselves are happily delivered from the evils to come.

I have too long digressed, and therefore shall return to my subject. I think the advantages by the proposal which I have made are obvious and many, as well as of the highest importance.

For first, as I have already observed, it would greatly lessen the number of papists, with whom we are yearly overrun, being the principal breeders of the nation as well as our most dangerous enemies; and who stay at home on purpose with a design to deliver the kingdom to the Pretender, hoping to take their advantage by the absence of so many good protestants, who have chosen rather to leave their country than stay at home and pay tithes against their conscience to an Episcopal curate.

Secondly, The poorer tenants will have something valuable of their own, which by law may be made liable to distress and help to pay their landlord's rent, their corn and cattle being already seized, and money a thing unknown.

Thirdly, Whereas the maintenance of an hundred thousand children, from two years old and upward, cannot be computed at less than ten shillings a-piece per annum, the nation's stock will be thereby increased fifty thousand pounds per annum, beside the profit of a new dish introduced to the tables of all gentlemen of fortune in the kingdom who have any refinement in taste. And the money will circulate among ourselves, the goods being entirely of our own growth and manufacture.

Fourthly, The constant breeders, beside the gain of eight shillings sterling per annum by the sale of their children, will be rid of the charge of maintaining them after the first year. Fifthly, This food would likewise bring great custom to taverns; where the vintners will certainly be so prudent as to procure the best receipts for dressing it to perfection, and consequently have their houses frequented by all the fine gentlemen, who justly value themselves upon their knowledge in good eating: and a skilful cook, who understands how to oblige his guests, will contrive to make it as expensive as they please.

Sixthly, This would be a great inducement to marriage, which all wise nations have either encouraged by rewards or enforced by laws and penalties. It would increase the care and tenderness of mothers toward their children, when they were sure of a settlement for life to the poor babes, provided in some sort by the public, to their annual profit instead of expense. We should see an honest emulation among the married women, which of them could bring the fattest child to the market. Men would become as fond of their wives during the time of their pregnancy as they are now of their mares in foal, their cows in calf, their sows when they are ready to farrow; nor offer to beat or kick them (as is too frequent a practice) for fear of a miscarriage.

Many other advantages might be enumerated. For instance, the addition of some thousand carcasses in our exportation of barreled beef, the propagation of swine's flesh, and improvement in the art of making good bacon, so much wanted among us by the great destruction of pigs, too frequent at our tables; which are no way comparable in taste or magnificence to a well-grown, fat, yearling child, which roasted whole will make a considerable figure at a lord mayor's feast or any other public entertainment. But this and many others I omit, being studious of brevity.

Supposing that one thousand families in this city would be constant customers for infants flesh, besides others who might have it at merry meetings, particularly weddings and christenings: I compute that Dublin would take off annually about twenty thousand carcasses, and the rest of the kingdom (where probably they will be sold somewhat cheaper) the remaining eighty thousand.

I can think of no one that will possibly be raised against this propasal, unless it should be urged that the number of people will be thereby much lessened in the kingdom. This I freely own, and it was indeed one principal design in offering it to the world. I desire the reader will observe, that I calculated my remedy for this one individual Kingdom of Ireland, and for no other that ever was, is, or, I think, ever can be upon earth. Therefore let no man talk to me of other expedients: Of taxing our absentees at five shillings a pound: Of using neither clothes, nor household furniture, except what is our own growth and manufacture: Of utterly rejecting the materials and instruments that promote foriegn luxury: Of curing the expensiveness of pride, vanity, idleness, and gaming in our women: Of introducing a vein of parsimony, prudence, and temperance: Of learning to love our country, wherein we differ even from Laplanders, and the inhabitants of Tompinamboo: Of quitting our animosities and factions, nor act any longe like the Jews, who were murdering one another at the very moment their city was taken: Of being a little cautious not to sell our country and consciences for nothing: Of teaching landlords to have at least one degree of mercy towards their tenants. Lastly, of putting a spirit of honesty, industry, into our shopkeepers, who, if a resolution could now be taken to buy only our native goods, would immediately unite to cheat and exact upon us in the price, the measure and goodness, nor could ever yet be brought to make one fair propasal of just dealing, though often and ernestly invited to it.

Therefore I repeat, let no man talk to me of these and the likes expedients, till he hath at least a glimpse of hope that there will ever be some hearty and sincere attempt to put them in practice. But as to myself, having been wearied out for many years with offering vain, idle, visionary thoughts, and at length utterly dispairing of success, I fortunately fell upon this propasal, which as it is wholly new, so it hath something solid and real, of no expense and little trouble, full in our own power, and whereby we can incur no danger in disobliging England. For this kind of commodity will not bear exportation, the flesh being of too tender a consistence to admit a long continuance in salt, although perhaps I could name a country that would be glad to eat up our whole nation without it.

After all, I am not so violently bent upon my own opinion as to reject any offer proposed by wise men, which shall be found equally innocent, cheap, easy, and effectual. But before something of that kind shall be advanced in contradiction to my scheme, and offering a better, I desire the author or authors will be pleased maturely to consider two points. First, as things now stand, how they will be able to find food and raiment for an hundred thousand useless mouths and backs. And secondly, there being a round million of creatures in human figure throughout this kingdom, whose whole subsistence put into a common stock would leave them in debt two millions of pounds sterling, adding those who are beggars by profession to the bulk of farmers, cottagers, and laborers, with their wives and children who are beggars in effect: I desire those politicians who dislike my overture, and may perhaps be so bold as to attempt an answer, that they will first ask the parents of these mortals, whether they would not at this day think it a great happiness to have been sold for food, at a year old in the manner I prescribe, and thereby have avoided such a perpetual scene of misfortunes as they have since gone through by the oppression of landlords, the impossibility of paying rent without money or trade, the want of common sustenance, with neither house nor clothes to cover them from the inclemencies of the weather, and the most inevitable prospect of entailing the like or greater miseries upon their breed for ever.

I profess, in the sincerity of my heart, that I have not the least personal interest in endeavoring to promote this necessary work, having no other motive than the public good of my country, by advancing our trade, providing for infants, relieving the poor, and giving some pleasure to the rich. I have no children by which I can propose to get a single penny; the youngest being nine years old, and my wife past child-bearing. (1729) THE END

Hill Billy Mitchell (10/8/2000; 12:22:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 38567)
Clint H # 38565
You say:

"...this is a worldwide forum and some of your statements would be offensive to people in other religious cultures...
Many cultures and religions have the same goals and feelings about gold and the financial markets but not necessarily from your religious perspective. Please be aware of their views as you talk of golden things."

May I say, we are seeking truth on this forum. Truth is absolute. We are not running for political office here and our opinions need not be suppressed. 'Other religions and cultures' have the privilege of addressing their grievances and giving their opinions as to the truth here expressed. I for one do not want Totalamateur, Buena Fe, or anyone else censured on this forum.

HBM

Buena Fe (10/8/2000; 12:03:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 38566)
totalamateur (10/8/2000; 10:29:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 38563)
I know of what you speak!
-Just Government...(not a democracy)....a Monarchy...a KING!....ruling from where you say?.....Jerusalem!!.....I pray for the Peace of Jerusalem, (even though I am not Jewish).

-And perfect/balanced weather!......must be a beautiful sight that canopy......especially the sunrises! and the sounds! I can hardily wait.

Long Live The KING!

Clint H (10/8/2000; 11:51:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 38565)
totalamateur --The lie cannot coexist
totalamateur (10/8/2000; 10:29:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 38563)
Gold and Truth!
Gold and Truth! Is there a connection?

<<The lie cannot coexist with the truth anymore than light can coexist with darkness. One side must win in the end.>>

totolamature, by not responding to your post I would be indicating approval. Some of your ideas would seem the truth to those who are like minded. However this is a worldwide forum and some of your statements would be offensive to people in other religious cultures.

Many cultures and religions have the same goals and feelings about gold and the financial markets but not necessarily from your religious perspective.

Please be aware of their views as you talk of golden things.

Gandalf the White (10/8/2000; 11:39:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 38564)
ROFL !!!
The Wiz just returned to the TableRound from more battles with the Orcs to catchup with the happenings of the last two days. In reading Saturday's comments, I began to see the truth through inadvertent and unconscious statements !
<;-)
=====
Cavan Man (10/07/00; 16:32:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 38489)
Hello Trail Guide
<snip>
As you are an American, myself being an American; I must ask you how you feel about this whole business. I mean, how do you really feel? Know what I mean?
====
THEN, directly followed by: <;-)
---
Trail Guide (10/07/00; 16:53:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 38490)
Comment
Hell everyone,
+++++++
Enough said !!! <;-)

totalamateur (10/8/2000; 10:29:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 38563)
Gold and Truth!
Gold and Truth! Is there a connection?

There is a striking parallel to be found between your gold market and your 'spiritual market'. You are living in a time period where extreme materialism is prevailing and where spiritual substitutes have been accepted and been considered as adequate and the real thing for a long, long time now. By the same token as it takes a lot of faith to keep the Bible's ideas and thoughts close to heart and in general "keep the faith" as it is called, it takes a great amount of faith to keep and hold on to one's physical gold in these days. This applies whether you are a small guy and the owner of one little gold coin or a central banker with a vault full of gold bars!

The Church, Christianity, religion and Christian faith has never been attacked so viciously and from so many sides as it is to day, with the Church and thereby the believers in God and Jesus being ridiculed and persecuted and even burned at the stake to entertain the public's lust for blood (Waco). Your government and the powers that be had no guilt in this instance, they said so themselves, and then it must be true, mustn't it? And all of you watching it all from your comfortable armchairs were equally innocent; after all they were a bunch of fanatics and weirdoes and had it coming! But come to think of it: What about Jesus and His disciples, weren't they a bunch of wandering hippies and dropouts as well? Sorry to digress like this, but this episode carried great importance and marked the beginning of the End of the World as you know it now!

Anyway, back to the gold market: I propose that a familiar attitude that results in the burning of Christians at the stake is prevalent in the world of finance. There are believers in the lie; read: fiat currency, paper gold, and other papers, and you have believers in the real thing, the truth: real gold and actual, real, valuable commodities. The believers in the lie are in a solid majority; the majority seems somehow for a number of reasons to always be wrong. And sad to say, they are not satisfied being wrong themselves, they seek to persuade the undecided and the ignorant to come their way, and having done short work of them, they proceed to cover their own wrong choices and wrong-doing by ridiculing and persecuting the minority that holds to the truth with the hope of eventually getting rid of them altogether. The lie cannot coexist with the truth anymore than light can coexist with darkness. One side must win in the end. Real and sound money, if allowed to exist, will eventually drive out the lie that paper money is and be replaced with, yes, you all guessed right, gold and silver and even coppers for the smaller denominations. - What is new under the sun? (I am aware of the fact that it has been suggested on this forum that they can indeed exist and live happily side by side, but as one writer had said, time will prove all things, also that idea! A lot will be left for free men and free nations to decide and we will all continue to learn as we go.)

I am here only as an observer, on a time travel back from the future, and it is very interesting to see how the thoughts of men are developing and helping shape the future that I am already occupying. You forum writers are truly the avante garde of the economists of your day! Having served the Manufacturer in my time on Earth, I am now part of the maintenance crew if you will. Although I have to admit it came as a shock to me the awesome responsibility that has been laid on my frail shoulders. But we work in team works with plenty of safeguards and have at our disposal the wisdom of all ages and all the help we need from the place you call Beyond, but which we call Home! The World is a different place than it was during "your" days, even if some of you survived the devastation of the final days of horror, and are still there. Others of you that at one time or another had received the gift of Salvation or accepted Jesus in any way, shape or form, are now with us here in the Heavenly City. You couldn't take your gold with you, but you realized soon you did not need it as this place is to some extent made out of gold and that of a superior kind of gold than you were used to! You also realized that the debate about gold versus paper was only a tool that had been allowed to help people choose the truth instead of lies!

The World is a better place now: There is no more war, the physical environment of the South and East has remained mostly intact and untouched by the horrible devastation of the North. The evil monstrous cities has been destroyed and the survivors have been resettled in the countryside where they once again farm the land and have had to learn from them that stayed loyal to the soil. Not only are the cities destroyed, man himself realizing the damage they did, have banned them forever. Most people are producing their own meager and simple needs for food, clothing and shelter, and what they cannot produce they trade and barter with others that can, from each according to his ability and to each according to his need. They that will not work, don't eat either! There is no more welfare or social security for the lazy and the slothful!

Since the love of money had become the root of all evil in your past generations, there is no longer any filthy lucre to pollute the economy. People are now exchanging commodities of real value, gold and silver of course included; and: it just had to be done: nobody is any longer allowed to accumulate more than his share. And none are permitted to suffer for lack of it.

The cities gone, small towns and villages are the order of the day. They are better than they of the past; beautiful, well-planned and wisely organized; small circular towns with roads radiating out into the surrounding farms and countryside. No more gigantic smoke-belching Earth polluting factories and industries, no more roaring, self-destructive forms of rapid transportation which killed even more than even the evil diseases of your wicked civilization. This took a bit of time to implement; the old being gradually phased out through a mere lack of production of new vehicles and spare parts. Car factories were turned into assembly lines for farm wagons and carts and carriages and buggies.

It helps to realize that the age you are now experiencing is but a twinkling of an eye; for thousands of years camel trains and wagon trains were occupying the roads, and sailing ships were gracefully plowing the seas. The fast hell-bent, destructive speed-that-kills of the past has been slowed down to a peaceful pace that your mind and body can better endure and survive and enjoy at a rate that gives you time to think and pray and observe the beauties of God's creation as you pass slowly by, and absorb the clean fresh air of an unpolluted atmosphere that you can breathe deeply and freely with plenty of time, instead of the nervous haste and reckless driving of the past and all its human carnage and vehicular wreckage. The wild world of past civilizations are gone!

The Southern part of the World are again learning to shift for themselves, with their powerful, cruel northern neighbors gone. They had been seduced and persuaded into industrializing and borrowing billions that the rich north knew they were never going to be able to repay, but had only served to make them slaves and servants of the Northern lenders who literally owned those countries and told them how to run their affairs. Finally the South refused to pay and this had helped bring on the Great Crash of the North. The North eventually did themselves in through their own wars and the judgments of the Manufacturer culminating in the Great Battle also called (Armageddon). The South is now free, the Pharaohs of the North being gone forever.

I am painting a picture of sheer and pure bliss here, but men are men, and all will not behave no matter how perfect the conditions are, so for the sake of the record; there are still rebels even in this perfect day and age. But all in all, this is Heaven on Earth; man is now free of disease, sickness, hurts, pain and early death, and if you can believe it; you even walk easier as gravity is lighter than in your day! The atmosphere is healed and there is full protection against the ultra violet rays from the Sun as well as cosmic rays. It may come as a surprise to you that what you called natural disasters were not natural at all; there are no more calamities like torrential rains, storms, hurricanes, volcanoes erupting, earthquakes, floods etc. The climate is perfect and temperate over most of the Earth where the majority of the people live. A lot was changed when the earth's axis had its angle corrected. The former polar regions are no longer frozen, barren wastes, but are temperate zones being populated and farmed! The deserts are long gone and are green and lush and flourishing! The trees are again bearing such abundant fruit that you can get most of your food from the trees, thus almost eliminating the hard work of tilling the land, except for diehard vegetarians! It is the Garden of Eden revisited!

Well, dear forum friends; this is what has become of the World that you were so worried about and thought were too far gone! And I don't blame you one bit; I must admit things were looking quite bleak for a while. I too had my doubts and was about to throw in the towel a few times, but it just goes to show never to give up hope and to keep looking for that silver lining of those storm clouds. Tomorrow is wonderful, I can assure you, I am there already! You will not be disappointed, the future is everything you could ever hope for and more! What more can I say, except keep the faith, or get you some! Ha! And yes, since this is a forum for people seeking a certain amount of physical security in holding a bit of gold for a rainy day; yes, gold is God's ordained wealth storage, untamperable, enduring. We here wouldn't use the expression eternal, as that is reserved for the real goodies! Get you some, but just not too much! As it would be sad to end up with a heap when it's time to go and no pocket to put it in! Besides being the perfect money and a royal metal it is meant for a buffer in a tight situation. When my Big Brother, who was once a little weak Child, had to seek refuge abroad, my fellows made sure that his parents had some gold to tide them over till it was safe to return to their home land. In the same manner it can be a help to many of you when the Crash hits. As many of you are becoming aware, there will soon come a period when the Wicked One will demand that no one can buy or sell except they have his mark or his number in their hand or forehead. In that day a few brave souls will ignore his threats and use gold and silver as a means of exchange. In the same manner as the Truth is esteemed of low value and trodden under foot of men, so is gold; the two go hand in hand. But the day will soon come that both are honored and recognized for what their real value is!
Signing off, but will continue to work from this side towards a liberation of gold from the stranglehold of the greedy manipulators. However, our hands are tied just now and we can only do so much, the rest is up to you, we can only work through yielded human vessels. So get your signals straight and you won't go wrong. Your decisions and actions is what will tip the scales of balance in due time. Spread the Word: the dollar is doomed, the Crash is here, the Euro will take over and gold is still the yard stick! Show time is now! This year is the year of change!

Sancho (10/8/2000; 10:20:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 38562)
justamereBear
RE your post 38554, studies were ade of the relative wolf
and moose populations on Isle Royale National Park at
Michigan, of which each waxed and waned successfully for
years, until some helpful environmentalists brought along
with them some poodles or somesuch and the wolves had a
major dieoff from canine distemper. Thomas Malthus's
theories about human populations being limited from time to
time by war, disease, famine, etc were set back by advances
in food production, some disease elimination etc. but I
think we are not exempt from nature despite mankind
spending most of their efforts to supplant it. Something
noteworthy debilitating will invariably come along. The
nature of it is that human beings have multiplied with
abandon to such an extent all over the world that a goodly
percentage of other species have to die out. From habitat
destruction on land to widening ozone holes killing things
we don't see like plankton, we may yet have to cope with
limiting our population (most people will not volunteer as
well as myself). Wars and disease are useful for that.
Was it Einstein who when asked how the world might end said
it probably would not go out with a bang but with a
whimper?

JavaMan (10/8/2000; 9:44:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 38561)
(No Subject)
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2000/1008/breaking23.htm
Compliments to nomercy.

From the link: "Mr Jacques Santer, former president of the European Commission, has called on Gulf Arab oil exporters to price their crude in the euro rather than the US dollar as a means to stabilise the oil market."

tedw (10/8/2000; 9:32:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 38560)
The Middle East
http://www.usagold.com

The situation in the Middle East appears to be worse than previous posters are portraying.

1) Isreal has launched jet attacks against Lebanon in retalitation for the capture of 3 Isreali soldiers by Hizbollah.

2)Syria has said Hizbollah was "justified".

3) Barak has issued a 48 hour ulitmatimum to Arafat to stop the violence or peace prospects are over.

4) Palestenian spokesman have rejected the 48 hour ultimatimum

5) Iraq is calling for a holy war to liberate Jerusalem.

6) Opinin polls show 2/3 of arabs want war with Isreal.

7) Isreal appears to be in the process of forming a unity government.

8) UN resolution (US abstaining) condemen Isreal for excessive violence againt Palestinians.

----------------------------------------------------------
The Middle East is on the brink of war.I think it is likely that the Arabs may attack Isreal from all sides. I think it is also likely that Isreal will respong this time with the use of NUCLEAR WEAPONS and eliminate 100's of millions of Arabs. Her back is up against the wall and in order to survive she will have to do it. She has the means and the will.

God help us all.

justamereBear (10/8/2000; 8:20:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 38559)
Replies & thots Megatron Oro WAC Aristotle Journeyman

Megatron 38531
Yes "The great reckoning" is something of a bible. I have an autographed copy, and subscribed to their newsletter for a time. Eventually found it a bit strident and obsessed, and quit. Have you tried "the axmakers gift" by R Burke? Similiar conclusion but a slightly different attack point.
A look at history.

Oro 38550
One thought- not that I disagree with the general direction of your thesis. There is a debt. It is to prof Auriti, and it is his guarentee that he will exchange back to lira, on demand, that people are relying on.

WAC 38549
That is tame to what Africa and some parts of Southeast Asia, particularly Thailand, are experiencing. In those cultures that do not actively promote monogamy the rates are soaring. Russian rates of infection over the past 10 years have been rising dramatically as people increasingly feel they have little left to lose, and increasingly, women are forced toward prostitution to survive.

Aristotle 38511
Loved your invisible crash. It is a question I have been struggling with in several areas for some time. Unfortuately I lack your facility with words, and there is no doubt that, in the process of accurately describing a situation, one is forced to think about the problem much more clearly.
One of the problems is, we lack any experience with which to relate, so it is hard to imagine, to start with, an invisible crash. How does one go about explaining "red" to a blind person?

Journeyman
One thing that is apropos our discussion about traders and this forum. There is an adage; "(commercial) Bank" traders cannot go head to head with the central banks, and central banks cannot go head to head with the market.

HI - HAT (10/8/2000; 8:04:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 38558)
Taurus......Understanding is Power__Then BASICS
Concentrated Barterable Wealth
Depending on severity.. Worst case........basics.

Shells , Ammo. Gold, silver, liquor, chocolate, coffee.

..........Swords and Plowshares..........

Taurus (10/8/2000; 7:22:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 38557)
Response to justamereBear's post #38491
http://www.pronetisp.net/~rbrown/
Sir justamereBear,

I'm ordinarily a lurker at this forum. Your post #38491, however, has prodded me to respond.

You said, "Anybody out there with an theory or prediction as to how this might unfold�?" Also, "�the thrust of this missive is to� garner ideas which will allow us to be better prepared for eventualities."

As to what comes next, allow me to quote from the book referenced in the above link:

"Life has no guarantees. And, because there are no guarantees, we need a portfolio that will protect us in all situations � runaway inflation, deflationary depression, even war.

"If nature takes its course, it appears that the logical sequence we face is (1) increasing inflation, followed at some point by (2) wage and price controls, followed at some point by (3) deflationary depression. Of course, a major debt default (by a third world country unable to pay its bills, for example) could leapfrog the normal course of events and plunge us directly into depression. In fact, the next thing on the horizon could be inflation OR depression OR both � and in either order. In simple fact, no-one knows what's coming next. No-one.

"And if a war starts, all bets are off. War is as likely as any other scenario because it allows politicians to rally support in the face of failed policies, consolidate power, impose controls, and shift blame. War � rallying �round the flag � is a great blessing to a faltering leader."

And so, justamereBear, what's coming next? Darned if I know. (Though I am holding my breath to see what happens on the stock market tomorrow.) But there ARE ways to protect oneself regardless. What's the best way? (Aside from sitting at the right hand of God, that is.) What's the best thing to have in your portfolio? Stocks? Bonds? Real estate? Gold? Tangible assets? Baseball cards?

On a coffee break not long ago I actually heard a man bragging to his friends about how his baseball card collection was his retirement fund. His baseball card collection was his leg up on the rest of us. I chose not to engage him in debate.

No doubt most of us went through some Y2K planning. And a decade or two ago we went through some "survivalist" planning when runaway inflation appeared imminent. Hopefully we have outgrown the paranoia of living in a bomb shelter, patrolling our property with rottweilers, and arming our children with assault rifles against the dreaded Russian invasion.

But the future does NOT look promising. AIDS; germ warfare; Muslim hatred of the West; terrorism; the breakup of the USSR with the result that Hershey bars can be swapped for atomic bombs; good old fashioned racial bigotry; the fact that we're losing the war on drugs; the fact that crack babies will grow up looking like everybody else and think nothing of ripping off a few rounds in drive-by shootings; et cetera� Oh yes. Let's throw in a few wild-card, certified crazies as international government leaders. Not just folks out to line their own pockets. CRAZIES!

Not to worry, you say? The U.S. government has everything under control, you say? Let me again quote the book in the above link. "As the punch line of a dirty joke has it, �Be ye not a wee bit old to be believin� in leprechauns?�"

But to the point. How can we be better prepared? How can we rest easy at night, knowing we have done all we can do? What tangible steps can we take to help both ourselves and our loved ones? Bottom line, what SHOULD our "portfolio" consist of?

The answer, I believe, goes a step beyond stocks and bonds and real estate. Even a step beyond gold. The best thing with which to arm oneself is KNOWLEDGE.

Knowledge can be carried across international boundaries with impunity. Not taxed, not confiscated, not detected. No metal detector, no sniffing dog, no customs inspector can find it. Knowledge is ageless, priceless, irreplaceable. Knowledge will allow you to earn a living and survive in any corner of the world.

What kind of knowledge? ALL kinds. How to drive a car, how to swim, how to speak a second language, how to ride a bicycle, how to grade rare coins, how to calculate standard deviation and statistical process control, how to type, how to program a computer, how to grow a garden and do home canning, how to deliver a baby, how to pilot a plane, how to double-clutch an 18-wheeler, how to speak in public, how to play bridge and golf and dance and other social graces, how to fish and hunt and trap and butcher animals, how to do oxy-acetylene welding and set-up a metal lathe, how to start a fire with flint and steel, how to change the oil on your car, how to haggle in a public market, how to make a 12-gauge shotgun from 3/4-inch pipe�

Knowledge will enrich your life, make you feel more competent and better able to cope, and help ensure your future survival in this world.

Sign up for some adult education classes. Learn something useful. To prepare for the trying times that surely lie ahead, learn a craft or skill that will bring people to your door seeking what it is that you know and that they lack. Be the first in your neighborhood to throw an atlatl. Be the first to make colloidal silver. Be the first to eat the edible mushrooms that grow wild in your area. In short, "Get thee a copper kettle�" (Those are the opening lines in a classic on building your own whiskey still.)

You're already a free-thinker or you wouldn't be reading this forum� And your greatest wealth, your greatest resource, is KNOWLEDGE.

AND while you're at it, stash a few gold coins. Maybe at home. Maybe in a safe deposit box in a foreign country. (Many millions of Americans live but a few hours drive from Canada or Mexico or a quick hop from the Bahamas.) And maybe not in a bank at all. Maybe place those coins in the safekeeping of a personal friend or relative in a foreign country. Hey! If the Swiss can vote themselves off the gold standard then anything is possible, yes?

Hipplebeck (10/8/2000; 7:12:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 38556)
(No Subject)
ranchers will grow more cattle if the price of beef rises.

LeSin (10/8/2000; 7:01:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 38555)
@ STEVE H -- MR AG - Confirms "Gold is Money" by threats of leasing
From GM "Teetmyer" Thank You
Steve - I think this post from GM some what supports your earlier post - Agreed Gold is MONEY when free or imprisoned from the masses. "S"

Greenspan Faux Pas�
(Teetmyer) Oct 08, 06:40

"Central Banks stand ready to lease gold..."
��
"Central Banks stand ready to lease gold in increasing quantities should the price rise"

"Central Banks stand ready to lease gold in increasing quantities should the price rise"

There is NO ambiguity here... no nebulous nor esoteric terms. No obscure nor vague inferences. In fact it is totally devoid of arcane and/or secret meanings.

Fed chairman in an extremely rare plain talk says, "Central Banks stand ready to lease gold in increasing quantities should the price rise" Please pronounce each word slowly and methodically to savor the essence and spirit of this very meaningful statement:
��
"Central-- Banks-- stand-- ready-- to-- lease-- gold--in-- increasing-- quantities--should-- the-- price--rise"

This is monumentally significant for the following reason. The Fed, the US Treasury and countless Wall street lackeys have carped and harped for years that GOLD is NOT money, but rather is just another commodity, subject to normal supply/demand dynamics. OK, OK. Let's accept that precept: that GOLD is indeed a traded commodity - no more nor less... simply a traded
commodity like COPPER!!!!!!

Recall many months ago the U.S. Attorney General of the Department of Justice announced on national TV that two drug companies have been found guilty of PRICE-FIXING. Furthermore, just a few days later it was also announced on national TV that Merrill Lynch is being formally accused of PRICE-FIXING collusion related to the Sumitomo Copper Caper fiasco perpetrated just a few years ago (I believe about 1995).

Fast forward again to Fed Chairman's comment about the COMMODITY CALLED GOLD:

"Central Banks stand ready to lease gold in increasing
quantities should the price rise"

��"Central-Banks-stand-ready-to-lease-gold-in-increasing
quantities-should-the-price-rise"

Should not the US Department of Justice, the CFTC and the SEC interpret AND ENFORCE the same applicable laws, when considering the relevance and poignant significance of"Central Banks stand ready to lease gold in increasing quantities should the price rise?"

I confess I am NOT versed in the law. Nevertheless, I cannot rectify how PRICE-FIXING LAWS may apply to drugs and copper, but NOT to GOLD - because to the Fed and the US Treasury, GOLD is indeed a COMMODITY.

Would someone at the forum more versed in the law help me clear up my "ignorance?"

justamereBear (10/8/2000; 6:53:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 38554)
JavaMan Re AID's

I have an offbeat theory that I have never heard anywhere.

Back in the 50's someone got to wondering why the animal population went up and down, as opposed to finding a stable level and staying there.

In 2 experiments deer on one island, and wolves on another were studied. Similiar results on both so I will deal with the deer.

The theory was that since the deer were on an island that there would be no external forces to disrupt the experiment. There were also no preditors on the island.

At the start of the cycle, the population was low in relation to the food supply, and the deer population grew. After a few years the deer started to show signs of stress. By now the population was at or over the long term carrying capacity for the island. Still the population grew. Then a strange diease would roar through the population, and knock the numbers way down.

Being a farm boy from the foothills of the Rockies, I could relate to that. The rabbit population had about a 7 year cycle. the rabbit population would grow and grow, and about every 7 years the rabbit population would die off.

That year you had to watch, because the preditors, whose staple diet was the rabbits, were hungry enough that they would come down from the mountains, and they would take a calf, or a sheep easily. Sometimes they would try for a cow. I recall one year, I shot a lynx every single day for 3 weeks straight. Normally we would never see a lynx.

Autopsies were done on the dead deer. The only slightly abnormal finding was that all of them had enlarged adrenal glands, indicating and confirming the observation that the deer were under some kind of stress. As soon as the population died down, adrenal glands of autopsied animals returned to normal.

I don't remember where (this experiment is well known to people in the field even to this day) but they decided to move the experiments inside using rats..

Rats are unusual in that they have a very rigid social structure. There is little fighting among particularly, adult rats. The female is very caring of the young, and makes a very neat nest. Their mating rituals are very patterned, with the male nipping at the tail of the female, and they race around, until the female eventually retreats to her burrow. The male stands around at the entrance to the burrow, hopping from foot to foot. If she comes out and sniffs at him, they go back in and mate. If she does not, eventually he goes away.

The experiment was simplicity itself. They simply provided the rats with a very large cage, all the food, water and bedding they wanted, and sat back to watch.

At first things went as normal, but at a certain stage in the population growth the social structure began to break down. The tails of attractive females were bitten until bone showed. Males no longer waited at the burrow entrance, but went diectly in and mated. Gangs of adolescent rats formed, terrorizing the populace. Males began to mount males. Females no longer made careful nests. Nests often consisted of a few straws scattered about. Females would decide to move the nest, and half way through, while carrying a kit, something else would catch their attention, and they would drop the kit and wander off. Infantacide grew. Autopsies showed enlarged adrenal glands.

Then, along came a strange disease. The population would die back by 90 to 97%. The origional social structure would reappear. The population would begin to grow again.

Interestingly, they found they could dramatically increase the absolute numbers of the rat colony before the breakdown came, by the simple expedient of providing what for a normal rat, were very small high rise apartments. They simply piled orange ceramic drain tiles up into a stack. That area was much smaller than the rat normally used as a den, but it seemed as long as the rats had a personal space they did not become as stressed.

Think about it. Normally if you and I are talking, and there is no sexual significance to the conversation, we will maintain a fairly constant distance between us. There are minor differences between cultures, and depending on how interesting the conversation is and how comfortable with each other the parties are. But the personal space zone is quite well defined. If I move in by 6 to 10 inches, you will become uncomfortable and either try to move away, or object. If you are in a crowded elevator, you will stand at rigid attention, saying with your body language, "I am not touching you because I want to, but because the situation forces it".

The question has crossed my mind; Has humanity found its strange disease?

SteveH (10/8/2000; 6:49:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 38553)
Point
You said, "Then those digits are traded for the ownership or rights to gold. When someone posted what Another said the figures were, I think that that 20 million of actual bullion in retention represented the tally over some ten years (and was growing)."

Twas I who posted 20 million, but it was 20 million ounces per year since 1991 and much more recently.

GATA lives in a commodity world, trying to influence a money universe. The commodity world is regulated by government; the money world is regulated by nations. GATA's basis is collusion of nations and key bullion banks; yet, it is clear from this perspective that GATA's claims, although reasonably true, cross the commodity-money boundry where government isn't much interested in regulation against nations whose currencies are at risk. The GATA claim of collusion is but a smaller complaint against a much large systemic problem -- gold's apparent hidden role in a dollar-based universe that has little incentive to admit gold's role. For nations to admit gold's role as money would be to accomplish a run-for-gold that would only further (at least in their minds) exascerbate the dollar's role as money. In short, government looks the other way as gold trades on COMEX (and LBMA) with unlimited paper, because some Nations require it so.

Is GATA's role diminished or left chasing windmills with a wooden spear? No, but I wonder if GATA is to be successful, if they must first admit and refocus on gold as both commodity and money? It is the bullion banks who live in both worlds: they are windmills and dragons both.

HI - HAT (10/8/2000; 6:08:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 38552)
ORO.......See or Seem
Edgar Allen Poe, slipped into the future and liberated himself from the Newtonian universe with his :
"All that we see or seem, is but a dream within a dream".

I guess it was in the natural flow of this that Banksters would cover their end of this equation, and have transpire:
All that we see or seem, is but a debt within a debt.

JavaMan (10/8/2000; 6:04:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 38551)
typos
justamereBear...That should have been Arthur Ashe.

Usul...sorry for the mis-spell

ORO (10/8/2000; 4:48:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 38550)
Auriti on the legal nature of fiat money
http://www.tv-wings.com/money/italy/lire-1e.htm
Prof. Auriti makes the legal argument to "correct" the lack of legal definition of money in Italy, and in any of the treaties of the EMU. He states the obvious and sees the consequences, even the banker's political conspiracy, but he attempts to replace this system with a pure cash fiat, i.e. a nominal money issued without counterweight in debt.

The good part is that he points to debt-money creation as a legalized expropriation. In the process, a bank (backed by a central bank commitment to issue unspecified quantities of banknotes or electronic credits, as necessary) simultaneously creates a debt and an asset (the money). The asset, however, does not yet have value. The value is provided to the money by the acceptance of the borrower, who in turn accepted the money (and the obligation to repay) only because he expects others to accept it in return for goods which he intends to purchase.

Auriti claims that the bank makes two expropriations. First, it produces a current expropriation of the purchasing power value of the debt-money issued, for which no cost was incurred. And then the banking system expropriates the same nominal value once again in demanding a payment of interest with money that does not yet exist.

Though the analysis is correct on the face of it, and is definitely so in legal terms, the practical matter is that since governments everywhere have eliminated the fixed caps on the interest rates that deposits at banks can get, the bank does not earn the full interest charged, but only the margin between its own interest costs and interest revenue. Thus the created debt-money does cost the bank a certain amount, resulting from the deposits created by the spending of the loan (the bank's asset is the loan) bearing interest.

Auriti also claims that bankers have created artificial scarcities of money in Europe during the 18th and 19th centuries in order (among other things) to push people into the Americas, where they had created a commensurate artificial abundance of money. He also claims that the debt disaster in emerging economies was an orchestrated event intended to induce immigration into Europe and the US, where the same bankers are pressing an artificial expansion.

WAC (Wide Awake Club) (10/8/2000; 4:00:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 38549)
@Justamerebear
http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/
'Forgotten' HIV reaches record level

Roger Dobson

BRITAIN has registered a record number of HIV cases, the highest since the disease was discovered 20 years ago.
Figures being compiled by the Public Health Laboratory Service are forecast to show that more than 3,300 people were diagnosed last year.

"We expect it will be the highest ever," said Dr Barry Evans, head of the HIV unit at the PHLS. "The next highest [3,200] was in 1985, and that was high only because we had a big backlog as a result of the first test then becoming available." In the 1990s, the average number of new cases a year was 1,500.

It is estimated that a further 10,000 people in Britain have HIV but have not yet been diagnosed.

Doctors are concerned that HIV has become almost a forgotten disease, especially among young people. The incidence of other sexually transmitted diseases is also rising sharply - clear evidence that the message to practise safe sex, so loudly trumpeted in the late 1980s and early 1990s - is being ignored or forgotten by today's younger generation.

"I am worried about the trend, especially the trend in the outer markers - the other sexually transmitted diseases," said Evans.

New figures on gonorrhoea echo the increase in HIV. In the second half of the 1990s the rate of the disease among 19-year-old men more than doubled. In women of the same age it went up by 50% and overall it rose by 31%.

Health professionals fear that there is now a popular misconception that HIV and Aids are easily treatable, and that fears about Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, the human equivalent of "mad cow" disease, have relegated HIV's impact as a health threat.

"There is a perception that it is not the serious disease it used to be," said Evans. "HIV is more treatable but it is still an incurable infection and we don't know when resistance to the drugs will kick in.

"Although treatments are showing very real benefits, the drugs are toxic and not pleasant to take. It is not like taking a couple of antibiotics, and you need to take them for a long period of time. They are also expensive - about �15,000 a year per patient."

Evans estimates that there are about 20,000 people with HIV in Britain - at least half of whom are not even aware that they are infected. Since the disease was first diagnosed, 15,000 people have died of Aids in the UK. Last year, for the first time, the majority of people diagnosed had acquired HIV heterosexually. Between a quarter and a third of the cases are women.

A spokesman for the Terrence Higgins Trust said: "We estimated that in five years the number of people living with HIV will have increased by 50%."

wolavka (10/8/2000; 3:53:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 38548)
Dollars @home and abroad
Separation.

Netking (10/8/2000; 3:42:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 38547)
Rumors
"You shall hear of wars & rumors of wars..."('Manufacturers Handbook'). Welcome to the 'Last Days' right? 2001 is going to be a good old fashioned shakeup with the markets continuing to reel like they have been punched by the new upcoming heavyweight boxing champ David Tua.....interesting days ahead....hang on!

ORO (10/8/2000; 3:04:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 38546)
Prof Auriti's site
http://www.tv-wings.com/money/italy/index.htm
A short quote to whet your apetite:

Money is, indeed, a measure of value and a value of measure in the same time, since every unit of measure is determined by the corresponding quality of what it can measure. If the metre is characterised by the quality of length because it measures length, money has got the quality of value because it measures value.

Therefore, even if money is a collective good it is also a good of individual private property, that is a good of the bearer, since "the value of the measure" is an induced value (and not a credit one) which is incorporated into the symbol.

The monetary value, which is not created by who issues symbols but by who accepts them, has no cost.

It has no cost because the value is generated by the simple expectation of the other people's behaviour, as a condition for his own behaviour. Everyone is, indeed, willing to accept money against goods, because he expects to give money against goods. This means that money has a value because we conventionally decide that it must have it.

The monetary value is not created by who issues symbols but by who accepts them, that is the parties of the convention. Therefore, money, at the issue's act, must be considered a national collective property and not a central bank one, as it happens today. When money was made out of gold the bearer was the owner. With the nominal money (born in 1694 with the foundation of the bank of England) the bearer has become the debtor, that is "temporary owner" as long as the loan lasts.

In order to understand this fundamental changment, let us examine a simple example. Some times ago, the person who found a golden nugget, embezzled it without any debt with the mine. Today, instead of the mine we have the central bank; instead of the nugget a piece of paper, instead of the property, the debt.

Therefore, the substitution of golden money with nominal money has not been the simple changment of the marketing nature of the symbol, but a deep and substantial juridical innovation: peoples have been surreptitiously transformed from owners to debtors of their money, because the bank issues money only through loans.

The monetary circulation is, therefore, a circulation of real goods of induced value, which are burdened by loans at 100% to the central bank.

Knallgold (10/8/2000; 2:38:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 38545)
TG destillate
"..I expect that before this is over, we (US) might be forced to use our gold card to help devalue the dollar. That would involve a forced restructuring of the gold markets so as to make gold rise. A few political heads would roll if this takes place. Believe it!"..

Sounds like higher paperGoldprices are possible?Comments?

"I fully expect the ECB to begin it's assault now because as Mr. D has said, our Euro is now mature and can walk into battle. We shall see!"

"Some other things are in the works and with this new climate, it won't be long before we see it on the news."

It seems there is not much time left for buying physical.Somehow sad.All the best for you,especially the americans!

Black Blade (10/8/2000; 1:38:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 38544)
Israeli Tanks Moving Into Jerusalem
It's looking more like a possible war in the making as some Arab countries are making counter-threats. Now Israeli centurion tanks are taking up positions in and around Jerusalem. I go off to sleep now, but I wonder what kind of world I will wake up to.

Black Blade (10/8/2000; 1:17:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 38543)
Here We Go Again, at Least it wasn't an Invalid Preacher or Child this Time
Think That This Could Happen With a Return to Gold Confiscation?
Police Admit Mistake Man Killed During a Raid on the Wrong House
By Vicki Brown
The Associated Press

L E B A N O N, Tenn. � A 61-year-old man was shot to death by police while his wife was handcuffed in another room during a drug raid on the wrong house. Police admitted their mistake, saying faulty information from a drug informant contributed to the death of John Adams Wednesday night. They intended to raid the home next door. The two officers, 25-year-old Kyle Shedran and 24-year-old Greg Day, were placed on administrative leave with pay.

"They need to get rid of those men, boys with toys," said Adams� 70-year-old widow, Loraine. John Adams was watching television when his wife heard pounding on the door. Police claim they identified themselves and wore police jackets. Loraine Adams said she had no indication the men were police. "I thought it was a home invasion. I said �Baby, get your gun!," she said, sitting amid friends and relatives gathered at her home to cook and prepare for Sunday's funeral.

Resident Fired First

Police say her husband fired first with a sawed-off shotgun and they responded. He was shot at least three times and died later at Vanderbilt University Medical Center in Nashville. Loraine Adams said she was handcuffed and thrown to her knees in another room when the shooting began. "I said, �Y�all have got the wrong person, you've got the wrong place. What are you looking for?"� "We did the best surveillance we could do, and a mistake was made," Lebanon Police Chief Billy Weeks said. "It's a very severe mistake, a costly mistake. It makes us look at our own policies and procedures to make sure this never occurs again." He said, however, the two policemen were not at fault.

The Tennessee Bureau of Investigation is investigating. NAACP officials said they are monitoring the case. Adams was black. The two policemen are white. Family members did not consider race a factor and Weeks agreed, but said the shooting will be "a major setback" for police relations with the black community. "We know that, we hope to do everything we can to heal it," Weeks said. Johnny Crudup, a local NAACP official, said the organization wanted to make sure and would investigate on its own. Weeks said he has turned the search warrant and all other evidence over to the bureau of investigation and District Attorney General Tommy Thompson. A command officer must now review all search warrants.

Black Blade: The part that says: "We did the best surveillance we could do, and a mistake was made," just about says it all. This is what happens when the Keystone cops are allowed to run amuck!

Zenidea (10/8/2000; 0:46:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 38542)
Black Blade :)
Yeah my fathers sentiments by the first paragraph exactly , (bummer!)_Your sence of humour as dry as it may well be at times cracks me up my friend .
Perhaps one may feel better when one has given up hope !?. I wonder is it in the blood . Sad but what does one do after the umpire of reason cant sort this out after thousands years of genetic beliefs have transpired. Go fishing !. .... definately hitting the farter :)

Black Blade (10/8/2000; 0:37:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 38541)
Three Kings
I just finished watching the movie Three Kings. But there were four of them?! At the end of the movie it said that the Kuwaitis got back their gold, but claimed that some was missing. I could only think that I know of 79 tons that they won't be getting back ;-)

Note: Now israeli citizens are being evacuated from populations centers along the borders and borders along the West Bank and Gaza are being sealed off. Starting to look more perilous. Meanwhile, Bubba is running out of time to establish a legacy. No legacy of peace in the ME, and probably no legacy of a strong economy the way things are shaping up. Only a legacy of debauchery!

Black Blade (10/8/2000; 0:25:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 38540)
RE: MarkeTalk
I agree! The battle lines are being drawn. The are elements on both sides that want war in order to fulfill what they consider to be their destiny. Tonight Saddam is making noise about going to war with Israel, The US abstained in a vote at the UN condemning Israel's actions, which means that the US position is not "officially" in agreement with the resolution, but "unofficially" we are not opposed to the resolution. There are more steps taken toward war as we pass these thoughts among ourselves. The Hezbollah are shelling Israel along the Lebanon border and Israeli troops are massing near the border. The situation is getting out of control. Perhaps the best thing for the US is to "wash our hands" of this whole mess, and encourage them to just do it, finish it, get it over with and let the survivors bury the dead. Of course there really are no winners if the Arabs and israelis duke it out to the finish. But after several millenia it's probably the only solution. Bummer!

UN Condemns Middle East Violence -- U.S. Abstains

UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - With the United States abstaining, the U.N. Security Council adopted a resolution on Saturday that condemns the ``excessive use of force'' against Palestinians, who suffered some 80 casualties. The other 14 council members voted in favor of the hotly-contested resolution, which followed days of marathon negotiations between U.S. envoys and Palestinian supporters. The final draft was sent to both President Clinton and Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, diplomats reported. The resolution condemns the ``excessive use of force against the Palestinians, resulting in injury and loss of human life.''

It indirectly blames Israeli opposition leader Ariel Sharon, for provoking the week-long rioting after his Sept. 28 visit to a shrine in Jerusalem's Old City, holy to both Muslims and Jews. Neither Israel nor Sharon are mentioned by name, a concession to the United States, but its implication is clear and one reason Washington abstained, diplomats said. ``The United States does not think it was a very good resolution, to put it mildly,'' U.S. Ambassador Richard Holbrooke told reporters after the vote. ``We decided in the end, because of certain changes and improvements in it, that it was no longer clearly in veto land. We were prepared to veto it,'' he said. ``It was one-sided. It did not reflect the fact that Israelis had been killed and wounded, that this is not spontaneous and many of the things going on have a deliberateness about them,'' Holbrooke said. The document, initiated by the Palestinians, also called for an immediate resumption of Israeli-Palestinian peace talks and supported ``a speedy and objective inquiry'' into the violence, without saying who should conduct the probe.

Fears mounted that a U.S. veto on the resolution would only exacerbate the violence among the Palestinians and their supporters in Lebanon and elsewhere. But Nasser al-Kidwa, the Palestinian U.N. observer, said ''We think that the resolution contains extremely important elements. It could help alleviate the gravity on the ground and hopefully help bring the situation under control.'' Israel's ambassador, Yehuda Lancry, disagreed, saying: ``We indeed consider that this resolution does not reflect strictly the complexity of the reality on the ground.'' But he said it was less one-sided than earlier versions, thanks to American efforts.

The Palestinians say the violence was sparked by Sharon's presence on a plateau known by Muslims as al-Haram al-Sharif, on which are located the al-Aqsa mosque, Islam's third-holiest shrine, and the Dome of the Rock mosque. The same site is revered by Jews as the Temple Mount, on which stood the First and Second Temples of biblical times. Israel says Sharon's visit was only the pretext for Palestinian violence, which began earlier with the killing of an Israeli soldier and a policeman. Holbrooke said he would have preferred the equivalent of a line-item veto but one sponsor of the resolution, presumably Malaysia, would not allow it. Other sponsors were Bangladesh, Jamaica, Mali, Namibia, Tunisia and Ukraine.

President Clinton intervened during the night, having telephoned Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak and Palestinian President Yasser Arafat to try and break the impasse as new clashes broke out with the pro-Iranian Hizbollah group seizing three Israeli soldiers on the Lebanese border. Council members belonging to the 114-member Non-Aligned Movement of developing nations had been pressing for condemnation of Israel for the past week at the urging of Palestinian U.N. observer Nasser al-Kidwa. The United States had tried to head off the resolution, saying council action would interfere with efforts to try to end the bloodshed and salvage the Middle East peace process.

The resolution also says Israel should ``abide scrupulously'' by its obligations under the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention, which deals with protection of civilians in time of war. But it no longer specifies that the convention is applicable to all the territories occupied by Israel since 1967. Israel captured East Jerusalem and the West Bank from Jordan and the Gaza Strip from Egypt during the 1967 Middle East war.

The United States had balked at earlier versions of the text that specified the convention applied to all the captured areas, because this would underline East Jerusalem's status as an occupied territory.

Zenidea (10/8/2000; 0:24:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 38539)
wooooooooooops :)
Big mistakes ... Sugar, water and yeast :), off to bed :)

Perplexed (10/8/2000; 0:19:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 38538)
condesates Black Blade 38495
Your information on condesates was dead on. My uncle was a
gager for Conoco in the Burkburnette oil fields in the vacinity of Wichita Falls Texas, during and prior to the 1940s. The gas was called Cason Head gas and was a problem.
It collected in elbows and perhaps traps, I was about 11 or 12 and don't remember all the details. The condesate had to be periodically drained, and at certain times of the year there was a considerable amount produced. The octane level was pretty high, it had a very destintive smell,and was very suitable as a motor fuel. Getting rid of the stuff was a real problem, and although either federal law or company policy forbid its use, it was winked at. The gas was collected in 55 gallon drums and delivered to friends and fellow employees. I don't remember if the gas was used in company cars or not, but my uncle always drove late model Chevrolets, with four in line fuel filters. It seems to me that the water content was pretty high, but because it settled to the bottom of the barrel, was easy to seperate.

Perplexed

Zenidea (10/8/2000; 0:18:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 38537)
"Alcohol, water and Yeast", good on there own, explosive togeather!
Whilst I am on a roll of talking to myself and a frequenter of the US etc patent office. I just wonder again friends.
To try and attempt to understand everything , I mean to see the whole picture from quantum mechanics to infinity re: oil Ag , Pd, Au, Pt , and wherewithal the said comes from and who has what and who loves and why and on and on in our technological age why dont we further our discussions to the other elements in the periodic table ?. For example iridium and osmium ? Why are the stat"s on the net so scant? lets face it we need Platinum to crack oil and other incredible metals. We need through complicated processes high temp shit to extract the Platinum,. shouldnt we be broadining our minds a little ?. Water and Vacuums in nuclear reactors, or are we pandering to the sheeple on such a basic level we are only hopeing the truth will transpire by democratic belief ?. I love you all but I cant help wanting to move on at times .

MarkeTalk (10/08/00; 00:04:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 38536)
Israel, Oil and the Middle East--Response to Black Blade
A comment on your earlier post about the "idiot" Ariel Sharon's actions to stir up passions on the Temple Mount. In the BIG picture, there are no accidents in life especially in the Middle East. What we are witnessing is the fulfillment of Bible prophecy. War is imminent, whether next week or next month or next year. No other person could have inflamed passions like this man. For those readers who don't know this man's resume, he was defense minister in 1982 when Israel went into southern Lebanon and established a buffer zone as protection from rocket attacks by Hezbollah guerillas. He was particularly efficient at his job, and was heard often referring to Palestinians as "cockroaches." Even though he is no longer connected with any government position, his mere presence on the Temple Mount as he led a group of Jewish nationalists opposed to the peace process was enough to stir things up. But, as the saying goes, it takes two to tango and the Palestinians willingly obliged him.

News reports on Saturday from around the Middle East show widespread sympathy with the Palestinian cause. Arabs in Iraq and Syria burned Israeli flags and vowed their support to fight against Israel. Some even wanted to travel there and enlist in the ranks if it were possible. Even Pakistanis who are far removed from the conflict are incensed because they are Moslems and they feel comraderie with their Islamic brethen in Palestine. As if tensions were not high enough already, Israeli Prime Minister Barak raised them higher by announcing his ultimatum to Yasser Arafat: Curb the violence in 48 hours or else the full force of the Israeli Defense Force will be applied. By my calculations, this means sometime Monday afternoon, Israeli time.

Unfortunately, I don't see an abatement of tensions but rather escalation. And all of this is happening during the Jewish holy days. As Black Blade pointed out, we are looking at shades of 1973. But it could be a replay of 1973 in more ways than just one (i.e. oil). The last Arab-Israeli war occured on Yom Kippur in 1973. In the year 2000, Yom Kippur begins today at sundown Sunday evening, October 8th and we could see a second Yom Kippur war begin at this time. I might point out that tensions started on Rosh HaShanah (September 29/30) which marked the beginning of the Jewish holy days. I assume that the Arabs will once again use oil as their weapon against Israel and anyone who sides with her, i.e. the U.S. and possibly Britain. Europe, especially France, is pro-Palestinian/pro-Arab and anti-Israel. Witness France's alliance with Russia this week to snuggle up to Saddam Hussein and lift the sanctions against Iraq.

So it is a foregone conclusion that the U.S. will support Israel and that the Arab nations will use the oil weapon--whether next week, next month or next year. We better get used to higher oil and gas prices, higher inflation and--yes--HIGHER GOLD PRICES. Could the recent plunge in stock prices be telling us the same thing? We don't have long to wait.

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