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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 12/8/1999
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Journeyman (12/08/99; 23:40:59MDT - Msg ID:20617)
What to expect from "Authoritys"
They have a "Gaming Control Commission" in Nevada. Most gamblers who hear this think it's there to protect the gambling patrons from being cheated by the casinos. Nothing could be further from the truth. Without going into detail, their real job is to protect the financial interests of the casino's silent partner, the State of Nevada.

In this capacity, the interests of individual gambling patrons come in dead last, and gaming decisions show this bias. The biggest concern of the "Gaming Control Commission" is to make sure the State of Nevada get's it's correct percentage in gaming taxes.

Richard Butler -- or for that matter anyone who believes the ridiculous fairytale that "Authority's" of any kind are out to protect the little guy -- is, well, let's just say nieve.

Regards, Journeyman

lamprey_65 (12/08/99; 22:45:17MDT - Msg ID:20616)
Response to Peter Asher
Seems very silly to me also. Of course, much depends on the prices at which the gold transactions take place (I think!).
Yep, looks like an exercise for accountants.

Only bureaucrats could come up with something like this!

Lamprey

Peter Asher (12/08/99; 22:36:15MDT - Msg ID:20615)
lamprey_65 (12/8/99; 20:30:15MDT - Msg ID:20610)
Fixing posting Typo

Peter Asher (12/08/99; 22:34:04MDT - Msg ID:20614)
This thing is as slippery as an eel!
This thing is as slippery as an eel!

Let's get this straight now.

1) The IMF sells 9 million ounces of gold to Mexico and brazil for about 2.5 billion dollars.

2) Mexico and Brazil hand the gold back to the IMF.

OK so far. It seems that Mexico and Brazil will have then paid the IMF 2.5 billion dollars, and passed some gold back and forth while making some ledger entries.

So, now having paid the IMF the 2.5 billion and not having, at the completion of the transaction, received anything, Mexico and Brazil's loan balance due is reduced by the amount of 2.5 Billion.
AND, the gold is in the same place from which it started.

Well, as regards Gold sales, that was a zero sum game. No gold has passed into the hands of a buyer or gold contract holder. All the Coins, Bars and Ingots are snug in their original beds. The price of gold will only be affected by market participants who are unintelligent enough to think some gold has been bought or sold to market by this silly children's game of make believe.

Why the IMF needs this revaluation of it's books to invest the proceeds of a loan payoff is something only your accountant can tell you, (Maybe). What amazes me is that grown men can do this thing with a straight face.

Please tell me if I'm missing something here.

DIRECTOR (12/8/99; 21:06:43MDT - Msg ID:20613)
POWER
There is a person who has a smile that he hides behind very well.This person is obsessed with the Power he has,and even more obsessed with the Power he hopes to obtain in the future.I recently read an article where it was stated that this person may wish to pass any present or near future problems on to someone else, and mantain his smile. My opinion would be just the opposite. That for these problems to show for all to see and realize, would give him a great opportunity to use his present power to gain and inflict much more of it. I would be watching for that smile to go away in the near future. Also his power will likely increase even more when any remaining problems are passed on to someone else.

Keep the POWER of GOLD,your going to need it.

Canuck (12/8/99; 20:47:14MDT - Msg ID:20612)
Strange things going on
First Post
(The_Stranger) Dec 08, 20:39

Hello out there!

--------------------------
(over at G-E tonight)

SteveH (12/8/99; 20:43:25MDT - Msg ID:20611)
Absolutely worth reading
www.gold-eagle.com
This is powerful stuff.

from Ted Butler:

Unrelenting Misconduct

In my last article, I publicly accused at least six financial firms of fraud and manipulation, for their dealings in the precious metals derivatives arena. I'm still here. The fact that none has responded or acknowledged my allegations can be interpreted in a number of ways. While it doesn't prove them guilty, it doesn't exonerate them either. Their silence will not deter me. Since the manipulation of the price of gold and silver continues, I intend to turn up the heat.

To those who would say that I am just wasting my time, I suggest you take a look at what has been going on at Barrick Gold (and other heavily hedged miners). I've written many articles about Barrick and I think it is starting to have an effect. This is a company that is trapped by, and may be starting to panic over its short position in gold. Public reports indicate that the company has conducted a telephone survey of its big shareholders to learn their feelings on the company's hedging. Additionally, it has been reported that Barrick has presented special seminars with those investors in the US and Europe to explain what their hedging is all about. This is decidedly bad news for Barrick, for the simple reason that any attention that is drawn to the leasing/forward selling of gold and silver creates the real risk that more people will become aware of the true scam that the leasing of precious metals actually is. I have witnessed with my own eyes the daily conversion of thinking investors to the fact that leasing/forward selling is inherently fraudulent and manipulative. Barrick is crazy to draw attention to its shorts. This leasing and forward selling cannot stand open scrutiny.

The recent controversy about Goldman Sachs and its relationship with its client Ashanti Goldfields, provides further insight into the murky world of precious metals dealing, as well as the title of this piece. We are fortunate that this relationship has been made as public as it has, for it sheds more light on the gold and silver manipulation and permits specific new accusations against Goldman. One is very ugly indeed.

Published reports (principally from London) have presented detail that paint Goldman Sachs in a far different light than is normally associated with the high powered investment bank. For the record, I had contacted Goldman, once again, at the highest level prior to releasing this article, telling them the nature of this article and giving them the opportunity to refute my claims. Once again, they have chosen not to respond nor refute. I can't beg them to address this issue. I have no personal vendetta against Goldman (or Barrick or anyone else), my vendetta is against the crime of precious metals leasing and unlimited and unrestricted short selling in the 15 year manipulation in gold and silver. Goldman Sachs is a key player in that manipulation and as such, they are a fair target in light of recent revelations. Certainly, no one can accuse me of being a bully towards Goldman, not when there is universal acceptance that Goldman Sachs is the bully of the entire precious metals market. Let's face it, this firm is at the top of the food chain.

The dealings that Goldman Sachs had with their client Ashanti are sickening. It is hard to reconcile Goldman's actions in a world where the meaning of words such as honesty, fiduciary responsibility, fairness and some concern for your fellow man, is known to all. If an individual lacked such basic traits, we would all consider that unfortunate. For an institution like Goldman to lack such traits is unacceptable. The public record shows that Goldman misled Ashanti. Just a little bit of common sense will prove it.

Step back for a moment, and try to put what happened in the Ashanti - Goldman relationship into proper perspective. Ashanti, which has only been a public company for five years, increased its Goldman-sanctioned short strategy to the point where a $60 increase in the price of gold rendered it insolvent. Please think about this. This was no renegade unauthorized trader gone wild. This was Ashanti's corporate policy. Goldman was their banker. Goldman knew, or should have known, what Ashanti was doing. What Ashanti was doing was proving to the world just what a scam leasing/forward selling and derivatives are. For the first time in history, a deliberate and widely known "hedging" strategy caused a public company to self-destruct financially. I wonder if that will go in Goldman's historical milestones category of their web site. This was no financial accident. This was a direct and unavoidable result of the systemic fraud that leasing is. Your common sense should tell you that something is wrong, when for the first time ever, higher prices for their product hurts producers. This Wall Street designed Ponzi scheme has turned the metal world upside down, with producers actually rooting for lower prices. Bad things are destined to happen to the hundreds of mining companies that resemble Ashanti. The blame can be placed squarely on Goldman Sachs and the other unethical dealers.

It is no wonder that Goldman Sachs and its counterparty posse were quick to white wash the mess they created at Ashanti. (An aside - I'm starting to believe that "counterparty" means having a position that is counter to the best interests of your client). Since Ashanti couldn't meet its margin calls and no one has figured out how to repossess real estate in Ghana, margin was waived by a "standstill" agreement. This is outrageous. Manipulative short sales which, by definition, were a price depressant influence when initiated, were allowed to remain in place even after it became obvious that the short seller couldn't meet its obligations. Is it just me, or is this not a direct affront to the concept of free markets? Those that had reassured themselves that the price depressing influence of all this obscene short selling would be negated and offset by the eventual buyback or delivery, should rethink their position. Every action in this crises revolves around preventing Ashanti from buying back its short position on the open market. Real gold and naked calls were sold on the open market at the outset of the transactions, but the requirement to buy-back was unilaterally waived by the new rules of the crooked dealers, lest the price get out of hand. Goldman's and the counterparties' mopping up actions in waiving margin requirements for Ashanti make them clearly guilty of market interference for the purpose of price fixing. I don't understand how the authorities can't, or won't, see this. You would think, aside from reckless client negligence, that this would be the most severe charge one could bring against Goldman. I only wish that were true.

Now I make an accusation that saddens me. It is an accusation that I have wrestled with, because it is so serious and ugly. The fact that I have offered pre-notification to the party I am accusing, and asked them to set me straight, does not lighten the burden. It is an accusation that not only have I never made about anyone, but one which I never thought I would ever make. But the evidence is so overwhelming, and the nature is so germane to the issue of fraud and manipulation in gold and silver, that I feel I have no choice. I claim that Goldman Sachs, as part of its role in the sinful manipulation in gold and silver, is additionally guilty of racial discrimination towards its client Ashanti Goldfields. Please allow me to explain.

First, as a white man, let me give you my definition of racial discrimination. You know I don't mince words. White men taking advantage of black men, because they are black, is my definition of racism. Clearly, the record shows that this is what Goldman Sachs did to Ashanti in their financial dealings. The proof lies in the public record.

It is no secret that Goldman Sachs has been the main financial advisor to Ashanti since its formation as a publicly-owned mining company in 1994. The recent Financial Times article of December 2, 1999 describes the relationship fully (The title - "All Things to All Men"). Additionally, the 1998 Annual Review for Goldman Sachs (www.gs.com) actually highlights Ashanti as one of 16 corporate clients (out of thousands) deserving special mention, including a testimonial by Ashanti about how good Goldman was to them. The testimonial obviously predates the current situation.

Additionally, it is no secret that Ashanti led the gold mining world in the shortselling of gold and gold derivatives, compared to production. At its peak, Ashanti was close to 12 million ounces short, or an incredible 8 years worth of production shorted. Barrick may be short more ounces, and some Australian miners may be short more years, but Ashanti was acknowledged as being the most aggressive of the majors. That's the first observation, Goldman-advised Ashanti was the most aggressive mining short seller. The obvious question - how did Ashanti get to be the most aggressive short seller of gold? Did they do it to themselves, or did Goldman do it to them? Or, does it really matter - should Goldman, as its longtime financial advisor, have prevented Ashanti from being in the disaster short position in the first place?

I think you have to look at each participant to determine if Goldman Sachs was racist in its dealings with Ashanti. Ashanti is in Ghana, in the African Gold Coast. The country is poor, with a literacy rate of 60%, a life expectancy of 55 years, and 20% unemployment. The ethnic diversity is 99.8% black African and the GDP is $7 billion. (source www.ghanaweb.com). Ashanti Goldfields is the largest employer by far (around 10 thousand), and along with cocoa, gold provides the bulk of Ghana's foreign exchange. Ashanti is overwhelmingly a black company, with a CEO who is a native Ghanaian and who worked himself up from a shift mine manager position. Ashanti's current stock (ASL-NYSE) capitalization is roughly $350 million.

Goldman Sachs is a global financial powerhouse whose ranks are loaded with talented and educated overachievers. It will earn net profits of close to $2 billion this year, and has a market capitalization of around $37 billion, or more than 100 times Ashanti's (Ashanti does produce a real product or true wealth, while Goldman is a moneychanger, but that's a different topic). Hell, Goldman's market cap is 5 times the whole country's GDP. Goldman Sachs has been a pioneer and experienced hand in the gold and silver leasing /forward selling scheme for over 15 years. Ashanti has been involved for maybe 4 years or so. Goldman has a tradition of sophisticated financial dealings going back 130 years, the country of Ghana has only been independent for 40 years, mostly under military rule. Ashanti was government owned until 1994. One fact that I can't provide is how much money white Goldman Sachs made off of black Ashanti. You can be sure the amount was as obscene as racism itself.

It is not possible for a reasonable person to conclude that Ashanti, in any possible scenario, could hoodwink Goldman Sachs in a sophisticated game of dealing in precious metals derivatives. So, if Ashanti has ended up on the ropes financially, who's fault is it? It's so clear, it's obnoxious. A new, unsophisticated investor versus the master of the universe. Ashanti, of all the mining companies hurt by the price rise, had the highest concentration of "exotic"(aka "toxic waste") naked mutant calls. Do you think that Ashanti dreamed up the terms and conditions of these derivatives that are polluting our financial markets? The white man (Goldman) tricked the black man. That, my friends, is racism at the worst I have seen in thirty-five years. Goldman Sachs should be punished severely and stripped of any privilege of dealing with any government entity. At the very least, I can't imagine how they could be allowed to continue in the metal business.

Even if you refuse to acknowledge this conclusion on the information I've provided, and somehow still think Goldman's role was proper, ask yourself this - why did a majority of gold producing mining companies all do the same thing at roughly the same time? As I detailed in my last piece, there was an unnatural movement by all sorts of mining companies to load up on dangerous short gold derivatives at precisely the wrong time. Was this the mining companies getting together to trick the Wall Street Sharks?

In defense of Goldman, I don't think they are racist motivated. They are motivated by greed. They would steal from anyone, using any available method - in that sense they are truly non-discriminatory. Racism was not the primary motive in Goldman's dealings with Ashanti - money was. But even though the people of Goldman may not be personally racists, or the firm may not normally be considered a racist organization, motivation doesn't matter. The law (both moral and written) doesn't distinguish - it is not permitted. The historic Civil Rights Movement that I personally witnessed was about eliminating institutional racial discrimination, and hopefully individuals' minds in time. That's what makes Goldman's actions so repugnant - the racial discrimination they are guilty of is institutional in nature. That Goldman's prime motivation in its dealings with Ashanti was not racial discrimination, doesn't excuse the fact that racial discrimination obviously existed. And it should matter not that those discriminated against were not of our shores. Surely the law intended to preclude US companies from violating the civil rights of foreign citizens.

Goldman's role in Ashanti's finances was so pervasive, that they can't walk away. In this sense, Ashanti is likely to be restructured, rather than liquidated, because Goldman would really get a black eye otherwise. That, plus the mining assets can't be repossessed. Goldman might even arrange for a backroom covering of Ashanti's shorts. But even if Goldman were to refund all fees, rescind all transactions and make Ashanti whole, that doesn't change the fact that Ashanti was clearly racially discriminated against. And it doesn't lessen Goldman's involvement in the broader institutional fraud of leasing.

As disturbing as Goldman's transgressions against Ashanti are, I've always thought that one of the uglier aspects to the fraud and manipulation in gold and silver has been the hardship borne by the individuals who actually toil down in the mines. Not only do they labor in an unbelievably difficult environment, they all too often are deprived a livelihood because of the artificially depressed prices of gold and silver. Over the course of the leasing scam, hundreds of thousands of innocent people (most of them black Africans) have been thrown out of work due to mine closures because of low prices. If that was because of legitimate supply/demand forces, it remains just sad and unfortunate. But if it was because of a manipulative hand from the canyons of Wall Street, it is also outrageous and unacceptable. In this sense, while I've singled out Goldman Sachs in their dealings with Ashanti, Goldman wasn't alone at Ashanti, nor in the overall leasing scheme. By artificially depressing the price through their manipulative actions, AIG, Chase, JP Morgan, UBS and Republic Bank, and others, are also racists in the institutional discrimination against laid-off black workers. That they also caused the non-racist unemployment of non-black or other minority mine workers, does not lessen their guilt, that crime is separate to the discrimination.

So far, I've gone to the Federal Reserve, the Treasury, the Justice Dept., US Attorneys, the FTC, the Comptroller of the Currency, the CFTC (many times), and mining companies and their auditors in trying to end this scam. Wouldn't it be something if what broke the back of the manipulators was a civil rights activist? The authorities who should be on top of the scam obviously won't do it - so maybe someone from left field might do the trick. I've always known that if this fraud and manipulation were as broad and deep as I've insisted over the years, the proof of its existence would manifest itself in many ways. But I must tell you, even I am shocked about the recent revelations in this scam. Even I am taken back by the ugliness and evil that has sprung from an inherently flawed concept - metal leasing and unlimited short selling.

Ted Butler
December 8, 1999

info@butlerresearch.com

lamprey_65 (12/8/99; 20:30:15MDT - Msg ID:20610)
Updated IMF Article
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/991208/bd3.html
IMF to begin off-market gold revaluation next week

By Mark Egan

WASHINGTON, Dec 8 (Reuters) - The International Monetary Fund said on Wednesday
it will begin to revalue part of its massive gold reserves as soon as next week to fund its
obligations under an international debt relief effort.

Sources close to the situation said that the IMF will begin to revalue up to 9 million ounces
of gold starting in the next few days, completing the plan by about the end of March next
year. The transaction will allow it to fund debt relief for countries such as Tanzania, Nicaragua and Honduras.

``The fund is now in a position to begin to make its contribution to the strengthened Heavily Indebted Poor Countries initiative
as member countries qualify for HIPC assistance,'' the IMF's outgoing Managing Director Michel Camdessus said in a
statement.

The fund will sell the gold to Mexico and Brazil at market prices, sources said. Mexico and Brazil will then use the gold to
repay their loan payments with the same gold. Because the IMF values the gold on its books at about $48 an ounce and gold is
worth about $282 an ounce at current prices, the transaction unlocks about $2.1 billion in profits for the IMF.

The IMF will then invest the proceeds and use the interest generated to fund debt relief for the world's poorest nations.

The revaluation scheme was designed to placate those who feared that a sale of IMF gold could rock the price of gold. By
revaluing the gold, the actual bullion never leaves the IMF's vaults.

The debt relief scheme, coupled with pledges from the Paris Club creditor nations, aims to cut the debts of 33 of the world's
poorest nations to about $45 billion from $90 billion.

To qualify for debt relief, poor countries must meet economic conditions and promise to pump more resources into social
programs such as hospitals and schools.

The off-gold market transactions were approved by Congress in November as part of budget negotiations. Congress held an
effective veto over the IMF on the gold issue because of the size of the U.S. vote at the lending agency.

After months of heated debate between lawmakers suspicious of the IMF and those who were pushing for debt relief for the
world's poorest nations, Congress finally approved the plan.

But approval came at a price. The IMF was only allowed revalue up to 9 million ounces of its gold immediately. Congress will
review the fund's request to revalue up to 5 million more ounces in the Spring, which would free an additional $1 billion in
profits for the debt relief effort.

In what was seen as a slap on the wrist, Congress also forced the IMF to agree to publish its accounts, claiming the fund was
not as transparent as it demanded its borrowers be.

During the summer Congress blocked the IMF's earlier plan to sell 10 million ounces of its 103 million ounce gold reserves,
threatening to derail the entire debt relief plan. Lawmakers claimed the sale would roil already weak gold prices and hurt some
gold-producing countries which would qualify for the debt relief scheme.

The IMF's announcement came one day after its sister organization, the World Bank, said that despite improving global
economic conditions, the battle against poverty is growing ever more grim.

The bank said in its annual Global Economic Prospects the that the number of people living in abject poverty could rise.

In the report, the bank admitted that the goal it shares with other international agencies -- of reducing the numbers living in
extreme poverty of less than $1 a day in half by 2015 -- is growing increasingly unlikely.

The situation is bleakest for Sub-Saharan Africa, where poverty is unlikely to decrease even if optimistic growth projections are
met. Latin America is also unlikely to make much progress on poverty, the bank said.

In 1998 about 1.2 billion people were living on less than $1 a day. About 2.8 billion, or 56 percent of the population in
developing and transition nations, live on less than $2 a day.

-----

An agenda for higher prices? Any opinions?

Lamprey

SteveH (12/8/99; 20:03:23MDT - Msg ID:20609)
Significant?
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/991208/bb8.html
IMF to revalue as early as next week?

Chris Powell (12/8/99; 19:23:24MDT - Msg ID:20608)
Join the gold army's advance on Washington
http://www.egroups.com/group/gata/310.html?
We attack at dawn. Will you join us?

FOA (12/8/99; 18:36:48MDT - Msg ID:20607)
Comment
ALL:

Returning from our side walk in #20527, I have a few more things to add.

As I offer it; anyone investing outside of physical gold, isn't in the gold market. They are simply playing derivatives of gold that create bookkeeping dollar value if the price is going in their favour. Whether gold stocks or Bullion Bank forward loan paper, Options or Futures, if your financial position in life isn't strong enough to convert these values into real bullion, the house deck is rigged against you because you cannot play a physical card.

Lost to ones paper position, you can never make the substantial value gains that will be inherent if a sole physical marketplace takes over. True, there are some major
political players that will have their contracts honoured at all costs, but "you are not them"!

This is the "reality" of today's modern gold market. A reality that is proven in the mind of the investor, not in the "bemoaning cries" of fallen "paper gold bugs".
Like in Another's Thoughts:
"In this world, truth, dreams and reality take on different meanings to different people depending on where
they stand on the mountain".

As time matures, we will witness louder denouncements of this gold market as it works it's will on the bookkeeping of these past and present "paper gold bugs". For them, they expect "their reality experience" to be as an example and the same for "bullion buyers". Yet, it's obvious how their loses do not equate or compare to bullion. They "extrapolate" that if one cannot invest in the "paper gold market" without it's manipulation, he should not invest in "any gold market". All for the proposition that "if paper manipulation" cannot benefit them, physical gold cannot benefit you. Further, if the price of gold in derivatives form is discounted into oblivion, there can be no physical market. Nor can the price of physical gold rise as their favourite investment medium falls.

I submit, that their reality and ours are different. We will hear the testimony of many more players as they offer proof that the "gold market" is "washed up". Many will read these and fully understand that it's "their market" that is "washing out", not the real gold market. So, trade the paper game for the "shot in the dark" today's marketplace demonstrates it is. But buy gold first and most for the future!

Onward, back to the main trail:

I know many stock market investors that understand what is happening with a keen feel for "true reality". Even though these people are not in any main stream majority, they are conservative and possess very, very long term track records.

As an example (he's not Another), one gentleman that is 80++, has had 2/3rds of his substantial wealth in the largest US Mutual Funds for over "" 25 years"" !!! And he has never sold!
He speaks to me with an impressive, clear perception of what is going on. Confident that 75% of the valuation of the US stock market is related to nothing more than dollar inflation. He feels that this phenomenon has happened in other countries during other times. The difference was that their money inflation's also created price inflation because their currency did not hold the World reserve status. (Used the old German inflation as one example). This usage of the stock market as an inflation hedge has served him well and did not influence his perception of economic "reality". Not
accepting the current argument that the markets represent a "new found era of US global economic strength", he still expects the equities to run further with this dollar inflation. Yet, believing that this trend will end with a tragic, sudden collapse, his success has not clouded his perception of what is real and what will show value "after the fall".

Three years ago, he began buying large amounts of gold on a monthly basis and does so into this day. Completely unconcerned that gold is not responding to our current dollar inflation,,,,,, "his reality" is:

---that long before dollar inflation creates a price inflation that drives stock investors into other "inflation hedge securities" such as Real Estate (REITs), Oil stocks or Metals Stocks,,,,,,, the pyramid that is our financial system will fail. Forcing a return to gold, not as a Central Bank reserve, but as a international currency. And this action is expected well within his lifetime!

He may be right or wrong, but here is one of many persons that understands what the "real gold market" is and why it is reacting to a different "reality" in the world today. And by the way, he knows nothing about "oil for gold" and doesn't care! Needless to say, I didn't go further.

Hope some of you found this interesting,,,,,,,,,,,,,,thanks FOA

rsjacksr (12/8/99; 18:05:28MDT - Msg ID:20606)
Leigh
sleepless in CT
Hi! No, I'm in the lower western part of the state. Gold country. For those of you who don't understand, the greater New York area, which also comprises upper New Jersey, Westchester county, and lower Connecticut, is referred to as gold country because that's what it takes to live here. But as the crow flies and the wind blows, I'm about 35 miles from INDIAN POINT, which is no better. "Our family has potassium iodate" �� Smart Lady � So do we. Be Safe.

Mr Gresham (12/8/99; 17:45:10MDT - Msg ID:20605)
Leigh -- Millstone
Leigh --

As a former New Englander now out of reach of nuclear power plants, I hope you will be safe.

I've always wondered about that name, recalling JC's quote: "It were better for them that a MILLSTONE be hung about their necks, and they cast into the sea, than that they harm one of these little ones."

Just thinking about how, if the Pyramids of Egypt had been nuclear power plants shut down at the end of their generating lives, we would still only be 3,000 years into their 25,000 year containment requirements, with not a bit of power benefiting us today! And who could read the instructions left behind?

lamprey_65 (12/8/99; 16:15:55MDT - Msg ID:20604)
Fort Knox
GATA's call for an independent audit of U.S. gold reserves will not be well received by the establishment...they've been fighting it for years. Any guesses as to why?

The sad part is that the vast majority of Americans have no idea how important those reserves are. Even the thought that 1/4 of the supposed 8,000+ tons might be missing sends shivers up my spine. Not only could it drastically and rapidly destroy any perceived value the dollar current enjoys relative to other currencies, but it would raise very, very tough questions about the entire government/central bank relationship.

However difficult, these questions must be asked and answered NOW. To ignore them will only mean harsher consequences in the future. I urge all readers to write their congressional representatives and demand the Federal Reserve Bank answer the questions brought forth by GATA. We deserve the truth concerning OUR gold, no matter how ugly it may be.

Lamprey

FOA (12/8/99; 16:10:18MDT - Msg ID:20603)
Reply
Cavan Man (12/08/99; 06:16:41MDT - Msg ID:20570)
London Times: Thatcher Blasts Euro Army
http://www.the-times.co.uk/news/pages/tim/99/12/08/timnwsnws01025.htm?999
Lady Thatcher says a standing EU armed force could threaten NATO and could create a Euro superstate. Isn't that "the road ahead"? FOA, better give LT a "heads up". She's OK by me.

Hello Cavan Man,
Yes, that is most likely the road they will go. I think the Lady will have a better "feeling" about this when (if for MK?) England becomes part of this "super state". Then she will be printing her opinion about the "rouge US military machine".
Contrary to most analysis, I think the US does more good in the world of "war stuff" than bad. But, we can never anticipate how a superpower will "evolve" as economic conditions tear apart a political infrastructure. For our present context, the US is on a timeline that's winding down as Euroland is ramping up. So, the US may evolve negatively as Europe evolves into the good guys. This is a hard thing to consider for anyone that is "true blue USA" from the get go (like me!). But, generations come and go and the world changes. We shall see.

FOA

FOA (12/8/99; 16:07:59MDT - Msg ID:20602)
Comment
Aristotle (12/8/99; 3:58:13MDT - Msg ID:20565)
Thoughts on the issue of TIMING IS EVERYTHING

Aristotle,
Very nice post! Good food for the brain. I always leave your table with a load of calories
(smile). FOA

FOA (12/8/99; 16:06:40MDT - Msg ID:20601)
Comment
beesting (12/8/99; 1:03:24MDT - Msg ID:20563)
REALIZATION-The Birth of the new physical Gold market.

Hello beesting,
I think you are getting your thoughts in order. This may not be the only story, but it will become the one that's most important to gold investors. There are a lot of players that are pulling in this direction and would like to see it begun before our economic cycle is brought to a close. We can all be a successful part of this "before the fact" if gold bugs buy gold and wait it out.
I hope to reference this more in future posts.

Thanks FOA

Leigh (12/8/99; 15:52:08MDT - Msg ID:20600)
rsjacksr
Dear rsjacksr: Would you by any chance live near the Millstone Nuclear Power Plant? Those of us who do are definitely "sleepless in CT!" Monday's Norwich Bulletin ran a big article stating that there probably wouldn't be a meltdown or anything during Y2K (yes, they realized that's what the operators said before Three Mile Island), but gave lots of safety tips just in case. (Title of article: State expert says there's nothing to fear -- But in the unlikely event of a backup system failure, disaster could strike the plant and the area.) Our family has potassium iodate, a full tank of gas (and some full gas canisters), a list of items to grab if we have to evacuate, and several possible evacuation routes planned out. We don't want to be all aglow this Christmas season!

ORO (12/8/99; 15:27:35MDT - Msg ID:20599)
rsjacksr - it will happen anyway
There is little chance of escape from the consequences of the current situation. The heavy old money gets as corrupt as the system they try to control, their ability to continue is threatened by the eventual and inevitable collapse of the dollar plunder system, and its replacement by gold and other PMs. The historical experience of old money in times of turmoil, particularly when ammended by "strong hand" dictators is not something they would want to have repeated. Military governments have always turned on their sponsors, running anything but a mild fascist government is all they would be willing to risk, if that.

Dale Davidson and Reese Mogg like to talk in terms of the return on violence, that is currently limited because most of the economy of the world requires a degree of freedom to be able to excercise creativity. Second issue - perhaps the counter to that which one can plunder by violence - is what one must invest in it to overcome resistence. The proliferation of nukes and "weapons of mass destruction" in the hands of terrorists and countries makes resistance to technology war possible. Technology wariors are vulnerable to a variety of forms of attack focussing on their software and communications.
India, China, as well as Japan, Any one major EU nation, Israel, Pakistan, UK, Australia and Canada now have the brainpower to conduct successful attack. Not only Russia.

The final point is that the "solution" I propose is wishful thinking. But it will happen in an uncontrolled fashion whether the "powers" want it to or not.

SS is a government obligation. The government can issue the appropriate cash value or bonds with an appropriate present value.

If Knox is empty, we're caput financially for one or two extra years. We will go back to being the export powerhouse we once were - if the world is willing to take our goods.

CoBra(too) (12/8/99; 15:22:05MDT - Msg ID:20598)
Re- Realization @ beesting
Sir, I seem to have omitted (20563)that I don't think any
of the 2.000 tons of gold permitted to be sold over a 5 yr period, capped to 400 tons anually by the "Washington Agreement", will become available for anybody outside of the euro or ECB area (with the possible exception of BOE sales). Hence the coincidental match to the estimated gold loan position of 2.000 tons (think it was Venoroso's calculation) of Euro CB's.

The Swiss Parliament has today univocally voted in favor of the 1.300 tons gold sale. It still has to be approved by a lower Chamber in about 3 months, wherby in case of opposition it still may have to be approved by referendum of
the Swiss public - according to a Swiss banker.

Still can't figure the timing of the Dutch CB sale announcement, while the execution of sales will not be
pre-annonced, though, probably (pre-) arranged by BIS, it is claimed that the decision was made by July and integral
to the Washington Agreement.

Regards CB2

YGM (12/8/99; 14:06:37MDT - Msg ID:20597)
Y2K Newswire Update...
http://www.y2knewswire.com
A quick Y2K Newswire update:

We've just sent out faxes to a list of software developers, urging
them to release a FREE Y2K bug fix for the nation. Now we're waiting
to see who will stand up and do the right thing!

Y2K Newswire is donating all the download bandwidth, the hosting
costs, the press release, costs, etc., to getting the word out. Our
goal: helping the 800,000 non-compliant small businesses download and
run these PC fixes before January 1. Mac users don't have anything to
worry about: they're already compliant!

Mike Adams will be on the Tony Brown radio show today (www.tonybrown.
com), in New York, and on the Jack Jackson show in Illinois tomorrow
morning (oej.jack.net). Plus, he'll be doing another update on the Y2K
News Radio show (www.m2ktalk.com) later today.

Yesterday's "Internet Rally" events are still making headlines. One
TV producer wrote in, "This is the best publicity gig I've seen in 20
years!" Hundreds of supportive e-mails have flooded in from readers
all across the planet. The mainstream press is furious that we managed
to pull this off. And now, they know that if they complain about us,
it feeds right into what we're trying to accomplish.

Next, we're going to really call the integrity of the press into
question: when we announce a national Y2K bug fix, free of charge, and
we run national press releases, let's see how many publications dare
publish us. By NOT publishing this news, they'll be admitting that
their ego is more important than saving 800,000 small businesses from
the Year 2000 bug. They'll be jeopardizing 800,000 small businesses
just to avoid mentioning Y2K Newswire! But by publishing the news,
they'll be giving credit to Y2K Newswire for organizing the solution.

My, oh my. What a dilemma.

This is the ultimate credibility test for the national media. Will
they do the right thing, or will they keep Y2K Newswire off the public
pages just because they don't like our attitude? Our in-your-face
style isn't liked by most publishers, but when it comes down to it, we
get things done.

Judge an organization by its actions, not by its press clippings. Y2K
Newswire is donating thousands of dollars to the Red Cross, we accept
no advertising, we're spearheading the "Fix America" campaign, we're
paying for the distribution of the Y2K bug fix, we're spending our
time and money and effort to contact these software vendors and
persuade them to do the right thing.

Do you see anybody else doing this? Of course not. They're too busy
raking in dough from the 20+ advertisements on their web site while
complaining that Y2K Newswire made money this year! Go figure...

NOBODY WILL ANSWER THE 39 QUESTIONS!
We're still awaiting a SINGLE response from one journalist, reporter
or publisher who dares answer the 39 questions we posed to the country,
with your help, yesterday. Why will no one answer the questions?

You already know why: because to answer the questions is to admit Y2K
isn't solved. Instead, they will dismiss the questions, or they will
pick one question and attack it. They will never answer all
thirty-nine. Not a single mainstream journalist on this planet has
contacted us and offered to publish answers to these questions.

Does this surprise you? Is this a little shocking? Do we really live
in a world where no news organization in the country: not CNN, not NBC,
not ABC, not CBS, not even Fox News will answer these questions?

You can bet these questions will be asked next year: by angry
Americans who finally realize they were lied to! But let's not bring
up all that negativity. Let the complacent people learn this lesson on
their own. There will come a day when they can no longer deny the
truth.

That day, of course, will be a milestone event that will have a
hundred million Americans suddenly calling into question the
credibility of a national media that told them Y2K was solved. This
will be the beginning of the end for publications that didn't tell
their readers to prepare. Likewise, it will be a foundation-building
event for those papers, magazines and web sites that really did cover
Y2K with integrity.

Stay tuned for more news and events throughout the week...

Y2K Newswire
http://www.y2knewswire.com

Backup site in case main site is down:
http://209.133.91.110/

_____________________________________________
Visit the Tell-A-Friend form. Share
Y2K Newswire with someone who deserves to know!
http://www.y2knewswire.com/tellafriend.asp

beesting (12/8/99; 13:17:08MDT - Msg ID:20596)
REALIZATION msg#20563--Important Correction.
There is one glare-ing error in that post and here is a correction:

WAS:
4. The Swiss have the authorization to start selling up to 1300 tonnes of Gold next year.!!! THIS IS WRONG!!!

!!!!SHOULD BE!!!
4. The Swiss are working towards getting authorization to start selling up to 1300 tonnes of Gold next year.

Very Sorry!
For the latest update on the Swiss plan see USAGOLD morning report today.....beesting.

beesting (12/8/99; 12:47:15MDT - Msg ID:20595)
Canuck Gold #20591--A period of realignment. Ref.REALIZATION#20563.
Thanks for your excellent post.As with the launch of the EURO(which has happened), something of this size and scope requires much postulation among all concerned.Countries,Gold mines'sales outlets'secure distribution,etc.

I think the big players(CB's- Bullion Banks) in the world Gold trade already realize that they've gone past the point of no return when it comes to covering existing paper Gold contracts.The strong(not to far in debt)Gold mines are working a strategy of survival.Ashanti should have been a wake up call to all the heavily in debt Gold mines.
If the posters on these Gold forums know the paper Gold markets are in trouble(lack of Gold to cover contracts)the big players know also and are currently repositioning on a worldly scale to survive.Paper contracts on the exchanges can be paid off in paper money in lieu of Gold only until a jeweler or real user of Gold,who has contracts of his own to fill,can't get delivery of his Gold.....Then the word is out......more speculation........Republic Bank of N.Y. may have been in a hurry to sell the entire bank to HSBC because their Gold inventory was so low,they realized future delivery may have been impossible.Hence,HSBC(79 offices worldwide) with enough physical Gold of they're own,was summoned in a very hasty and tainted take-over to cover existing Gold contracts.
This new Gold market is now just beginning to get a time-frame.The Dutch,and Swiss have just now mentioned possible Gold sales next spring(2000). The Dutch sale, in the open ,thru the BIS not the LBMA, the normal channal.
It's the BIS and other CB's responsibilty to make a transition as painless as possible,however if this all comes about, someone(bullion Banks and non holders of physical Gold)is going to feel some pain!
By the way there is still a flat earth society,alive and active in England(Columbus sailed in a big circle to the new world and back){mostly Oxford graduates!]
Those in the know....buy Gold.....beesting.

Bill (12/8/99; 10:26:32MDT - Msg ID:20594)
relative gold & stock chart
http://www.nckodokan.com/charts/rel_gain.html
REPOST FROM THE OTHER SITE - Thought usefull

Couple of days ago someone asked how the various gold mining stocks are doing relative to each other. In reply, new charts for the stocks I follow are available at http://www.nckodokan.com/charts/rel_gain.html

Two charts:
(1) shows these stocks relative to POG from 21 May 99 (arbitrary date)
(2) shows same stocks vs. POG from 7 Oct 99 POG high

This is not investment advice, just information; use it as you see fit.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Skip (12/8/99; 10:14:29MDT - Msg ID:20593)
YGM: RollCall Magazine
Thank you for the update on GATA's Christmas gift to gold investors! Truly I hope this ad causes the light of truth to shine regarding the gold market.
--Skip

rsjacksr (12/8/99; 10:08:55MDT - Msg ID:20592)
Re:Oro: (12/07/99; 04:09:08MDT - Msg ID:20471)
"Wishful Thinking"
"I would plan a quick monetizaton of government guaranteed debt (yr 1-3), and set gold as a transitional backing for the dollar till the dollar (name and character) is discontinued." ��. What gold?

"I would immediately start sending 75-90% of the Federal government to seek their fortune in the marketplace with a generous severance package (15%+ per yr -yr 1-6)." � How does the market place accommodate these people?

I would eliminate the income tax completely (yrs. 2-3) and institute a property and sales tax." �.. Sales taxes don't produce revenue if no one is buying anything. What about SS and what happens to the present retiries?

"Once the outstanding debts are paid in script �� (more fiat dollars?), I would end the existence of the Federal Reserve (yr. 3) concurrent with the termination of the dollar and change banking laws to reverse the 1875(? exact year) banking law that allows banks to lend nothing and still call it money."

How? This still requires the removal of the power (families) that have run this country through Marshall law and confiscation of their gold(en) assets (if you can find it). Otherwise, even with a controlled collapse, they will eventually re-emerge and re-assert economic power; "The Golden Rule". Believe me, there will be blood in the streets. It's only a question of whose.

What if the rumor is true, that there isn't any gold (not much anyway) left in good old Fort Knox? What do we to use to re-establish our currency vs. the world, especially after another default?

Do you get rid of the CIA and How? They are a government unto themselves, outside of the present power structure with absolutely no controls being exercised. What about the FBI and how large a standing Army? What happens to our Military industrial complex? Do you leave the local police to their own demise? What about the CDC? �� what????????

I don't see any easy answers especially given the level of investments by England, Holland, Germany and other European countries in the USA. Never mind the Japanese. And none have brought up the question of multinational corporations, which are also nations unto themselves. How do you control them and their assets? They own companies, banks, farmland, etc ... etc � etc. I don't see them easily relinquishing there investments or their control. It's my opinion that the paper boys are still in control and unless there is a catastrophic event, it's going to be a long, �. Slow, �. bloodletting process. I don't think we can completely get rid of the LBMA, just limit how much influence they will have on the gold market, which means they will be supplanted by others who want a piece of the action. More of the same. It will just be split amongst the vultures. And latter, what stops them from MERGING? There is nothing that FOA has said that shows me that the LBMA doesn't have or cannot conceive of other options. To me the picture isn't that clear. Nice thoughts but it ain't gonna happen.
BTW, I really enjoy your post and I've learned much from to you and others on this forum. It's obvious from your many post that you possess a great mental facility, but I feel this particular post should be re-titled "Wishful Thinking". Because of this forum, my family has renamed me "Sleepless in Connecticut".
Respectfully, rsjacksr.

P.S. Now that I've turned myself into an "arcade bear"��. Have at it.

Canuck Gold (12/8/99; 9:26:35MDT - Msg ID:20591)
beesting (12/8/99; 1:03:24MDT - Msg ID:20563)
It's my understanding that the Swiss government has to hold a referendum to gain public approval to sell their 1300 tons and there is significant doubt that they will get it. There hasn't been an announcement when their sales will begin, has there? If, as the Washington Agreement states, only 400 tons of gold can be sold in a single year, and the Dutch and BOE are spreading out their sales, the Swiss will have to start selling their gold next year or they'll miss the boat, won't they. Imagine what will happen if the Swiss announce that their sales are delayed or cancelled.

Another thing. If there has been a 1000 ton per year shortfall for the last ten years and CB sales have been around 400 tons per year ( they haven't but round numbers help make the point easier to see), then the remaining 600 tons per year has to have been supplied from CB leasing (unless there is another source of supply that I'm not aware of). So that means there has to be at least 6000 tons of gold on loan. The CBs don't want to lend any more so it looks like supplies are going to get very tight next year, even if the Dutch provide 100 tons and the BOE supply 150 tons (25 tons every 2 months though I doubt that it will happen). The BBs can sell as much paper as they like but sooner rather than later, they're going to have to supply physical that they don't have because more and more future contract holders are going to demand delivery.

In the meantime, I wouldn't be surprise if some of the big suppliers start to withhold some delivery. As happened with oil, it wouldn't take much of a shortage to force the price of gold higher. There's going to be a shortage anyway so why not start the ball rolling now. The CBs will start to worry about getting back the gold they've loaned, so the lease rates will go up. The BBs won't like that because they've already sold the gold for less than the current spot price and the increased rates will add insult to injury. How on earth will they get their hands on 6000 (at least) tons of gold? Some mines have sold forward production but it's only a drop in the bucket compared to the shortage.

The can only be one conclusion. The price of gold is going through the roof and the Bullion Banks are going to get killed. It's just a matter of time. Be patient and be cheered by the thought that guys like Farfel are going to miss the boat.

CG

USAGOLD (12/8/99; 9:14:24MDT - Msg ID:20590)
Today's Gold Market Report: Interesting Developments in Russia and Switzerland
MARKET REPORT(12/8/99): Gold gave back part of yesterday's explosive
gains in quiet traing this morning. The European and Asian markets were
quiet as well. On yesterday's rally, Helen McCaffrey of N.M. Rothschild
& Sons offers this encouraging analysis: "It (gold) is just way oversold
below $282.00 and there is no reason for it to be down there." Standard
Bank put a Y2K twist to yesterday's action: "As Y2K approaches and
market liquidity starts to disappear, we are likely to see this week's
price volatility repeated and indeed increase." We'll go along with
that. We are in the midst of another surge in investor buying at
Centennial Precious Metals/USAGOLD. We would not characterize it though
as purely Y2K motivated. Buyers continue to cite the over-valued stock
market -- in fact we hear that more often these days than mention of
millennium problems.

After Telling the World They Were Gold Buyers, "The Bear"
Sells Instead -- Bridge News reports that the Central Bank of Russia
sold about 80 tons of its gold reserve in November bringing to question
whether or not the world's money men can trust anything that's said by
the Russian central bank or government. Several months ago, Russia
announced to the world that they would be buying gold to buttress its
ailing currency. I saw an article no more than a week ago that Russia
was going to acquire gold for a coinage program intended to ameliorate
their reliance on the dollar. Apparently, this statement was made even
as they liquidated. Perhaps this can be blamed on the political sector
in that country not knowing what the central bank is doing -- but if
economic policy is that loosely organized how can the world financial
community rely upon any economic policy announcement that might emanate
from that deeply indebted, inflated, corrupted and disorganized economy.

On the positive side, the liquidation was handled by the market with
only a slight ripple. The 80 tons (if this latest announcement can be
believed, about 20% of Russia's 411 ton holdings (if they were telling
the International Monetary Fund the truth when those statistics were
compiled.) I don't know about you but I count that as too many "if's". A
central bank official, according to the Bridge report, said "decision
was caused by a possible increase of the export duty for gold by the
government as well as favorable world gold prices in November." The real
reason is that the Russian economy is in shambles and nobody will accept
the ruble in payment for anything they presume to have a value. This
balances somewhat the positive news on the Dutch sale discussed here
yesterday. We would not be surprised to see further Russian sales under
the circumstances assuming, of course, there's any gold left for them to
sell. Put a question market beside that one as well......

The Latest on Swiss Gold Sales -- The Swiss 1300 ton sale came a
little closer to reality yesterday. Switzerland's upper house authorized
a plan by 33-0 vote that would allow the sale to begin next year and
stretch over a five year period. The plan can still be forced to
referendum under the Swiss system and we will see if the opposition will
solidify to the point that a citizen vote can be forced. Reuters reports
that minor differences from the lower house version will hold up final
approval.

There is this mysterious sentence in the Reuters report which needs
clarification: "If differences over coinage rights are ironed out as
expected in the next few days, the law can win final parliamentary
approval before the session ends on December 22, paving the way for gold
sales to start as planned next year." This is the first time I have seen
anything about "coinage," but I would have to assume that they are
talking about a gold coin for public distribution. Assuming that Swiss
citizens would be free to buy their own gold; this plan, if it is indeed
"the plan," would seem like a fairer way to dissemble a national reserve
in that it gives domestic investors an opportunity to buy their own
gold. A Swiss gold coin offered to the Swiss people would also increase,
but not guarantee, the chances of any referendum passing.

Reuters goes on to say: "Once approved by parliament, the law has to be
published officially and faces a three-month period for any opponents to
try to force a popular referendum against it. Barring this unlikely
event, gold sales could probably start around May or June, one
parliamentary official said.

Isn't it interesting how Reuters never fails to put its own spin on a
gold story -- usually negative? I wouldn't characterize a referendum as
"an unlikely event" in a country where just about every citizen has his
or her own stash of gold, and the banking system is considered to be one
of the largest purveyors of gold in the world. With the growing public
opposition all over the world to gold mobilizations which deprive the
people of their national heritage, the Swiss sale could very well face a
referendum in order to proceed. The U.S. Congress succumbed to strong
citizen pressure to utilize U.S. veto power and stop International
Monetary Fund gold sales -- a reflection on the American people on how
gold was being handled by governments and central bankers. The British
sales have gone on against a backdrop of citizen and parliamentary
concern and opposition -- with the Blair government essentially
stonewalling to keep the sales on track. Before the first ounce of Swiss
gold hits the market, there's a good chance the Swiss people will have a
say in the matter.

That's it for today, fellow goldmeisters. See you here tomorrow.

beesting (12/8/99; 9:13:59MDT - Msg ID:20589)
CoBra(too)#20568 Re:REALIZATION #20563 &nickel 162.
I have been receiving quarterly and annual reports from Anglogold since their inception about 1 1/2 years ago.They have been very plain in their reports wishing to market their product(Gold)in a different manner than is presently used.Anglogold may be THE largest dollar contributer to The World Gold Council.IMHO if the South African producers withdraw from LBMA---LBMA will collapse due to lack of physical product.(Gold) Just as ANOTHER/FOA have been saying for the last 2 (?) years. So it fits in with my #20563 REALIZATION post.We watch this newly forming Gold market together..yes...Those in the know....buy Gold....beesting.

YGM (12/8/99; 9:04:46MDT - Msg ID:20588)
Washington Roll Call Magazine/Background...
From lemetropolecafe.com/Gata @ Matisse Table

Begin our advertising and awareness campaign with an open letter to Federal Reserve Bank Chairman, Alan Greenspan, and Treasury Secretary, Lawrence Summers.

I called all my staff director contacts in the Congress of the United States and told them what all of us wanted to accomplish and asked their advice of the best way to proceed. The answer was universal. "If you want to influence policy or make an impact on the politicos in Washington, place your FIRST add in ROLL CALL.

Here is why:

A 1998 Pew Research Center survey provides independent data that Members of Congress look to roll call more regularly for their news than to any other media source - surpassing every other print, television and radio news outlet. Survey after survey demonstrates that Roll Call is the clear choice among Congressional decision-makers.

69% of the members of Congress regularly read Roll Call. According to House Minority Leader, Richard Gebhardt, "Roll Call is a critical and indispensable tool for deciphering the day-to-day maneuverings of Capital Hill. Roll Call has its finger on the pulse of Congress."

According to a Dec. 1, 1996 survey, Roll Call was proven to be the top Congressional publication for Opinion Leaders involved with issues such as Energy, Telecommunications, Banking/Finance, Education, etc.

86% of the Roll Call readership read 3 out of every 4 issues. 44% of Roll Call readers are involved in banking in some way.

Roll Call's readership reaches 58,000 of Washington's most powerful insiders and is hand delivered to each office in the House and Senate. A White House courier is always sent to retrieve 400 copies for top administration officials. In addition to the politicos, corporate public affairs, lobbying firms, trade associations and members of the media are among Roll Call's 5,000 paid subscribers.

Our CENTER SPREAD and open letter to Alan Greenspan and Lawrence Summers will appear in this Thursday morning's Roll Call issue. The final copy of the ad will be sent out on Wednesday to the gold websites and to the gold internet world. GATA will not ask for support for itself, but we will ask all those interested in a free trading gold market to support our request for gold market transparency and that The U. S. Federal Reserve and the U.S. Treasury answer the questions we have posed to them. We also would like all gold market followers to ask that there be a long overdue independent audit of the gold in Fort Knox.

In our correspondence to the internet on Wednesday, GATA will provide web site addresses that provide the email addresses of the Congressman and Senators of the United States. We will ask the gold camp to email their appropriate Congressmen and Senators. We should have enough of a constituency to reach all the Congressman and Senators many times over.

Here are the websites:

Congress e-mail directory:

http://www.webslingerz.com/jhoffman/congress-email.html

Senate:

http://www.earthlaw.org/Activist/senatadd.htm

Or - a web site where people can go to find the addresses and phones for their congressmen, just by typing in a zip code:

http://www.vote-smart.org

The reason for the Wednesday alert is to start a buzz going in Washington about what is coming on Thursday and to give our crowd some time to email the appropriate Congressional staffs in Washington so we make sure that our open letter to Alan Greenspan and Lawrence Summers is brought to their attention.

Now is the perfect time to make our move. Congress is not in session, therefore we can get the attention of the staffs and many others in Washington because they will not be preoccupied with pressing issues. I know this to be true as a result of my own communications with Congress this past year. My contacts in Congress also assured me that Roll Call is forwarded on to the Senators and Congressmen at their homes, so we will not lose much by them not being in Washington.

There is a big story here. We hope that the mainstream media will finally pick up on that and start doing some serious questioning on their own. This campaign is only one step towards our efforts to ending the manipulation of the gold market. With your help we can eventually win the day.

Midas

YGM (12/8/99; 8:56:22MDT - Msg ID:20587)
Woke Up Smiling :-))
Goldman Sachs & Federal Reserve Crew........
.....Thinking what a WONDERFUL XMAS CARD the GATA Letter will be, splashed accross the centre two pages of the Roll Call Magazine. This will be like shining a bright light under the rock where they dwell, for all of the Washington power brokers and politicians to see. To my thinking this will have great effect on many fronts...one of which will be that GATA and its claims will no longer be ignored by the media.....I expect to see this on Matt Drudges web page within hours and probably many other reporters will pick up the ball and run........SMILES, SMILES SMILES...........GO Bill Murphy, and Go GATA.....Payback is a bitch...YGM.

PS: 58,000 readers of Roll Call, the who's who of Washington....Smiles all the way................Merry Christmas to All Gold Hearts......YGM.

WAC (Wide Awake Club) (12/8/99; 8:34:41MDT - Msg ID:20586)
tedw - Y2K and Banks
I would like to put forward a scenario and pose a question. In nigeria, west africa, where the infrastructure (i.e. electricity, water, road etc) is very poor, it is not uncommon to turn up at a bank to make a withdrawal and be told by the cashier that there is no money in the bank today, (please) come back tomorrow. Customers think nothing of this and just simply do as instructed and come back tomorrow. There are no riots, no panics since folks believe that their funds will be there tomorrow or the day after, or the day after. At no time do the customers actually think the bank might go under.

My question is what would happen in the USA if folks turned up at there bank to make a withdrawal and were requested to come back tomorrow cause the Fed's printing press is working overnight and should have some paper greens ready in the morning. Would they be extremely concerned or perhaps suspicious that the bank is not in good shape.

tedw (12/8/99; 8:10:48MDT - Msg ID:20585)
Y2k and Banks
http://www.usagold.com

Here are some facts from an article entitled
"Bank customers hoard extra cash for Y2k" which is in
todays worldnetdaily.

1)The Fed has printed 50 Billion
2)1 in 4 Americans survey said they planned to withdraw $1000 or more because of Y2k
3)39% of a Gallup poll stated they would withdraw extra holiday cash

*****************************************
Lets look at these numbers.

The US population (as of 1998) was 270.3 million, and 25% or 69.73 million was under 18. So lets round the adult population to 200 million. 1 in 4 is 50 milllion. If 50
million draw out $1000 each, all of the Feds 50 Billion is
used up. The survey said they planned to take out $1000 or
MORE. If large numbers take out more than a $1000 it seems to me there could be a problem. This does not even count the 39% holiday crowd.

Based on the above numbers it is reasonable to believe we are facing a potential banking crisis. This may explain why
yesterday when I went to the local B of A there was a free brochure at every tellers window assuring customers how safe the banks are. It may also explain Al Greenspans
recent comments designed to scare depositors into keeping
their cash in the banks.

Jim Lord,a noted Y2k expert, said in one of his recent newsletters that there is only $3 in cash for every $250 deposited in the banking system. My handy calculator tells me that if depositors demand .012% of their money that the
banks are going to have to close.

It seems to me there are grounds for a reasonable person to
believe we may be facing a full-blown run on the banks soon.
And what will happen when the Y2k problems start to occur?
How many people will want their money then?

Please'somebody tell me Im wrong or Ive overlooked something.

Canuck Gold (12/8/99; 7:53:27MDT - Msg ID:20584)
Peter Asher (12/8/99; 4:17:39MDT - Msg ID:20566) et al
The Canadaian Government was doing a bit of back-pedalling following the Y2K story in the Toronto Sun yesterday according to the TV news last night. Here's today's follow-up article from the Toronto Sun:

Feds ready for Y2K woes

Don't worry, Eggleton reassures us

By MARK DUNN, OTTAWA BUREAU
OTTAWA -- Defence Minister Art Eggleton tried to reassure Canadians yesterday that "scary" scenarios aren't going to rock Canada on New Year's Eve.

Just in case, though, 25,000 troops will be on standby for any emergency that may arise as a result of Y2K glitches, including major power outages that could leave cities in the dark.

"You plan for the worst but hope for the best," Eggleton said, one of eight cabinet ministers ordered by Prime Minister Jean Chretien to remain in Ottawa Dec. 31 in case all hell breaks loose because of Y2K problems.

As The Sun reported yesterday, Chretien's government will be on full Y2K alert and ready to invoke the Emergencies Act, an updated version of the War Measures Act, if needed.

The new law gives cabinet sweeping powers to issue whatever
orders or regulations it believes are necessary to deal with
emergencies caused by computer glitches, civil insurrections, major riots and prison revolts.

People can be arrested, including those who hoard supplies.
Failure to comply could lead to fines and prison terms of up to five years.

Eggleton said it would be "highly unlikely" for the Emergencies Act to be set in motion and warned against exaggerating the potential for doomsday scenarios such as terrorists threats, mass suicides and crackpots who may want to blow up something.

"I think you have to be realistic about this and not paint scary scenarios that are just not going to happen," said Eggleton, the minister in charge of contingency plans.

He said there are always contingency plans and the Emergencies Act "is always there if we need it. It's been there for a whole decade."

Maj. John Blakely of the Defence Department said 1,500 military personnel will work over New Year's. The remaining troops and reservists on standby will be at home but on call.

He said should a major emergency arise there would be plenty of time to deploy.

------------------------------------------------------------

The only part I question is the part about arresting those who hoard supplies. No-one, as far as I know, has defined exactly what is meant by that statement.

As far as the troop readiness part is concerned, they were mobilised during the Great Ice Storm last winter when parts of Ontario and most of Quebec were without power for weeks due to the collapse of transmission towers and lines. I suspect they want to be ready in case. They were not arresting people for having extra suplies of firewood, generators or anything of that nature.

There's a segment of the population that is always spooked by these kinds of stories but most people just take them in their stride.

CG

leonard (12/8/99; 7:49:02MDT - Msg ID:20583)
TO CANUCK
knowedge sometimes leaves us all brathless

nickel62 (12/8/99; 7:45:53MDT - Msg ID:20582)
This might also shed some light why Homestake Mining managed to cover almost 250,000 ounces of their short position on July 30,1999 at around $255/ounce gold.
The well timed covering of a large portion of Homestake's gold hedging seemed very lucky indeed. But since over 25% of Homestake was purchased about a year ago by a German industrialist perhaps the information flow was working for the shareholders for a change.

tedw (12/8/99; 7:43:56MDT - Msg ID:20581)
y2k and banks
http://www.usagold.com
Here are some numbers to ponder.

The source of the numbers is an article in todays worldnetdaily (www.worldnetdaily.com) entitled

"Bank customers to hoard extra cash for Y2k"

Relevant facts:

1)The FEd has printed an extra 50 Billion dollars
2)One in four adults surveyed state they are going to withdraw $1000 or more.
3) 39% of bank customers intend to withdraw extra cash for the holiday weekend.

Lets analyze this:

The 1998 population of the US was 270.3 million (per US Census Bureau).25% (69.73 million)of that is under 18 so lets not count them.The adult populaton is rounded to 200
million. If 1 in 4 is going to draw out $1000 or more that means 50 million people are going to draw out $1000 or more.

50 million X$1000= 50 Billion dollars.

On top of this 39% are going to draw out holiday cash?

It seems to me that if signifcant numbers draw out more than a $1000,then with the holiday cash withdrawers the banks are not going to have enough money. This is a reasonable conclusion based on credible numbers.

All this is prior to Y2k. What happen when problems begin
to occur? Wont that mean that more people (the other 75%) will flock to the banks wanting cash?

Jim Lord, a fairly well known Y2k expert, published in his
newsletter that there is only $3 cash on deposit for every $250 of depositors money. Fractional reserve banking. If that is the case then my handy calculator tells me that if
depositors in total demand only .012% of their deposited money, the banks are not going to have it.

Perhaps the above explains why when I went to the local B of A yesterday they had a brochure at the tellers window for the public saying that the banks are safe and leave your money there. I also noticed Al Greenspan making a statement a few weeks ago designed to scare people into
leaving their money in the bank (I dont remember the eact quote but it was along the lines that if you take your money out the robbers are going to get you).

If my analysis is correct, there is at least a possiblity
that the banks are not going to have me the money on hand to
meet depositor demand and will have to close up.

Federal Reserve Governor Edward Kelley said in the worldnetdaily article "Were prepared for any demands the public may make"

Well, maybe so, but the numbers dont add up to me.

Does anybody see anything wrong with my analysis? Please tell me Im wrong.

leonard (12/8/99; 7:42:22MDT - Msg ID:20580)
(No Subject)
Federal Reserve Orders:
Be Careful On Clinton!
By Sherman H. Skolnick
Producer/moderator, Public Access Cable TV Program "Broadsides"
Since 1963, Founder/chairman, Citizen's Committee to Clean Up the Courts
10-6-98

The world's largest bank, the Federal Reserve, has ordered the US Congress to be careful in dealing with President Clinton. An order from this financial dictator cannot be ignored, although dissidents in the US military vow at some point to go public with their views against their Commander-in Chief Clinton.

Privately owned and operated by the Rockefeller and Rothschild families, and masquerading as America's Central Bank, the Federal Reserve does not want a change of figureheads in the White House, at a time of imminent collapse of global finance. The clandestine command of the Federal Reserve comes at a time of near collapse, or actual collapse, of a huge hedge fund interlocked with many money center banks, including those headquartered in the US, and also those like in Switzerland with branches in the US.

Amounting upwards to 200 billion dollars or more, the hedge fund disaster, based greatly on little-understood derivatives gambling, has wiped out the capital base of many supposedly "giant" banks Most of the alleged "profits" of major bank holding companies in recent years have been just book entries resulting from this gambling casino mentality. The public has almost no understanding of the link between banks and their parent holding firms.

Among those with capital structure wipe-out are Rockefeller-owned Chase Manhattan Bank and the First National Bank of Chicago, as well as the Rothschild and Jesuit-owned Bank of America which took over the Vatican and British-royalty-owned Continental Bank Of Chicago. Continental has been, since before the American Civil War, the mothership of the commodity and currency markets and trading in Chicago. (Continental laundered the funds for the murder of President Abraham Lincoln.)

Now almost forgotten, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation was set up in the 1930s to underwrite accounts, up to a specified amount as maximum, primarily of smaller or mid-size banks. With the mega-mergers gobbling up the banks and their holding firms and conglomerating into huge bank chains, the deposit insurance has become a dead letter. Only a few tens of billions of dollars are in the deposit insurance reserve fund to supposedly safeguard bank monsters each with several hundred billion dollars in deposits owed to the public. The banking system has become over-run with bank monopolies, also engaging in non-bank services such as travel agencies, insurance, securities transactions, and such--enterprises supposedly part of a "bank" house too large to permit to fail.

Embedded in the secret command to Congress from the Federal Reserve is that a prolonged trauma over removing or beheading America's King and Emperor would most likely cause to be exposed various dark secrets:

--Such as that William Jefferson Clinton, a sexual predator suffering from priapism, was selected in 1991 by the secret society, the Bilderberg Group, to be anointed as the American President specifically because he was subject to blackmail by his psychiatric past. The presslords, members of Bilderberg whose annual meeting is in a different country, agreed to propagandize in 11992 and thereafter in favor of Clinton, insuring the so-called "election" of Clinton at the hands of a dumbed-down, brain-dead populace.

--Such as, that the 1992 election, and the 1996 election, were arranged frauds: Part of a "CIA couple", with his CIA "wife" actually incompatible to him and a lesbian, Bill Clinton ran against his long-time crony and mentor, the former head of America's secret political police, George Herbert Walker Bush. Neither the CIA's separate grooming of Bill Clinton and Hillary Rodham, both closet Republicans, each from an early age with separate CIA agenda, nor Bush's assassination-ridden past, such as his complicity in the murder of President Kennedy nor Bush's criminal complicity in the Iran-Contra affair, were exposed in the 1992 election. Bush and Clinton agreed to shadow box.

In the 1996 election, Clinton was paired against elderly, used-out Senator Robert Dole who agreed with Clinton: Dole would not mention Clinton's treasonous crimes and Clinton agreed not to mention Dole fronting for various oil companies, most of which use CIA worldwide as their oilfield security force against would-be dissident elements.

--Such as, that by the 1990s, 25% of both houses of Congress were bribed of subject to blackmail as if having been bribed. This graft done, by the worldwide espionage and gun and dope enterprise, the infamous Bank Of Credit and Commerce International. Although pronounced as defunct, BCCI continues through its successor and alter-ego, Pinnacle Bank Group, headquartered in Chicago, at the First National Bank of Cicero (a Mafia enclave), and dominated by the former head of the Vatican Bank, Bishop Paul Marcinkus. BCCI hoped to spread out in the US by buying laws and lawmakers. BCCI's records. showing 108 members of the US House of Representatives and 28 US Senators as being receivers through a London unit of massive bribes, were actually an open record in the Bank of England for just 30 days.

The details of this bribery of the American legislative branch were in 1991 an exclusive story by this writer which only one paper, a conservative one, dared to publish. As my article set forth, four major news organizations had the bribery list and had compiled the corroboration of same, but refused to broadcast or publish it. Why? As told to this writer by a major prize-winning news correspondent who turned over the details to Skolnick, "The editor says we are not going to topple the American government."

--Such as, the US Central Government has become riddled in all three branches with horrendous treason. For example, a Clinton White House intern, Mary Caitlin Mahoney, alter murdered in the District of Columbia by a foreign intelligence team, was an eyewitness to Clinton, as President and Commander-In -Chief, turning over US financial, industrial, and military secrets to Wang Jun, reputed head of the Red Chinese Secret Police. Supposed "Independent Counsel" Kenneth W. Starr has as a private law client the selfsame Wang Jun. Also, Starr is the unregistered foreign lobbyist for the Red Chinese Government, thus Starr being himself subject to Federal Prison.

The American CIA as well as the super-secret Division Five, Counter- Intelligence of FBI have long been aware of all this and have covered it up.

--Such as that Bill Clinton has pledged to uphold the tenets of the Cecil Rhodes Trust that sent him to Oxford. Seldom mentioned is that the Rhodes Trust is dedicated to overthrowing the American Government and reverting this continent and land mass to again being a British Monarchy colony. Clinton's oath to the Rhodes Trust is in direct opposition to his oath as US President:

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States." US Constitution, Article II, Section 1. (Emphasis added.)

In pledging to support the Rhodes Trust and the British monarchy's purposes for the US, Clinton has violated:

"NO Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall without the Consent of Congress, except of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State." US Constitution, Article I, Section 9. (Emphasis added.)

By the way, in 1991, at the close of the Persian Gulf War, President Bush accepted $30 million in gifts from the Emir of Kuwait; General Colin Powell accepted $10 million of jewels from the Emir of Kuwait; General Schwartzkopf accepted $15 million of gold form the Emir Kuwait. All in violation Article I, Section 9, and while knowing that the US troops were subjected to certain chemicals and Iraqi poison gas resulting in the "Gulf War Syndrome" deaths, injuries, and disabilities, and such illnesses passed along to the wives children of US military that served in that War. (The poison gas ingredients were by a US unit of a French firm, owned in part by Bush, and Hillary Clinton, a director.)

--Such as, foreign secret police, some right in the White House, are operating on US soil to damage or murder, or arrange to murder, US citizens; all done with immunity from US authorities and without restraint or punishment by US authorities. Among those would have to be included Rahm Emanuel, who while Senior Advisor to President Clinton, had his desk closest to the Oval Office. Having dual citizenship, US and Israel, Rahm Emanuel is, in effect, the deputy director of Israeli intelligence, the Mossad, for North America. Rahm Emanuel is Clinton's link to the dope proceeds disguised as soybean and currency trading on the Chicago Board of Trade, the Chicago Mercantile Exchange, and the Chicago Board Options Exchange.---Funds that paid, in part, for Clinton's two campaigns for President.

Described by some by some as simply a two-faced gangster, Rahm Emanuel reportedly worked both sides, bringing out Clinton's propensity as a sexual predator while purporting to be an outspoken Clinton loyalist at the same time.

That some of these foreign secret police, operating with immunity in the US, are stealing US financial and industrial secrets (such as the French CIA), and assassinating eyewitnesses to treason by Clinton and other branches of the US government; with the complicity of some member of Congress, such as Cong. Henry Hyde who in violation of the US Constitution's mandate of Separation of Powers, is also the head of CIA's "black budget" with more actual authority than the Director of Central Intelligence.

According to a previous exclusive story by this writer, Hyde has reportedly been in the illegal gun silencer business supplying, among others, foreign secret police teams engaging in murders throughout the US.

Some consider the Federal Reserve as an on-going private and sinister enterprise, deciding by their actions how wars will be financed---they were set up to have the US finance Europe's World War One and to force US entry into the same---and when and how Depressions will enable the ultra-rich to gobble up smaller fish.

The mainstream press, riddled with key people who are members of secret societies in opposition to the US Constitution and the American Republic, are in no position to report such items as the Federal Reserve ordering the US Congress what to do with servant of the US people, the President, and what to do with him as a treasonous Commander-in-Chief, subject to being arrested by the US Military pursuant to the Military Code.

Perhaps the biggest secret of all is that William Jefferson Clinton and Hillary Rodham Clinton are closet Republicans by their actions causing the destruction of the Democratic Party and making the US a weakened, discredited, one-party system paving the way for a Hitler-like dictatorship.

Hound your local newsfakers. Demand, if that is possible, that they tell the truth.

Stay Tuned.

Sherman H. Skolnick
Recorded phone message: (773) 731-1000
Office, 8 A.M. to midnight, 7 days: (773) 375-5741
9800 So. Oglesby Ave., Chicago IL 60617-4870

ORO (12/8/99; 7:41:03MDT - Msg ID:20579)
Nickel 62
http://www.economagic.com/pdf/38_27_179_9941942.pdf
The chart is the supply ratio to demand for dollars within the US.
Supply is that of "new money" coming from dollar growth of GDP and new net debt.
Demand is total credit market debt including M3 times an aggregate interest rate. The interest rate is taken in this case to be the Eurodollar rate. This signifies dollar demand for repayment of interest only.
The theory behind this is essentially that all currency is created as debt, and because debt carries a positive interest rate, more currency must be returned than was borrowed, so that there is a natural deficit in banking. The deficit is made up by (1) new lending (either through the banking system - which creates new currency) (2) decreases in debt through bankruptcy (debt to equity exchange) or (3) through the creation of new money through printing, (4) by increase in the turnover rate of currency in the economy by the growth in dollar volume of the "real" economy (a combination of growth and price rises).
Payment of principal reduces both debt outstanding and the supply of currency, therefore ending with a 0 net effect on the supply and demand balance.

The figures are for internal US finances alone, though an external figure is used (Eurodollar rate).

Because of a quirk in the limited calculations available on Economagic's site, the ratio came out as a fraction in the 1/100 range instead of fractions around 1.

Perfect balance would be a ratio of 1. Below this is a deflationary environment, above 1 is an inflationary environment.

The red line is the Fed Funds rate less the CPI rate. The "real" base interest rate from the Fed is its major tool in controling the money supply through the cost of indebtedness. Traditional short term interest rates under the "pure" gold standard were 1% or so. By moving the rate it charges above and below the natural interes rate (which no one can know) the Fed causes debt outstanding and debt service costs (on short term liabilities) to increase or decrease and nominal GDP to continue or to stop rising.

nickel62 (12/8/99; 7:40:17MDT - Msg ID:20578)
This sheds light on a report last August about two Goldman Sachs investment bankers flying to Zurich to try to arrange the purchase of physical gold.
this occurred about the same time that the August Comex auction was almost cornered by someone taking delivery of almost all the contracts.If I remember correctly. GS and the others would of course ralize their own vulnerability. sometimes I wish I were a little better at putting these things together.Cheers

nickel62 (12/8/99; 7:21:13MDT - Msg ID:20577)
And Besting's follow-up. Sorry again if this is redundant. but I've been trying to understand what might finally blow this goldman Sachs paper chase.
beesting (12/8/99; 1:03:24MDT - Msg ID:20563)
REALIZATION-The Birth of the new physical Gold market.
http://www.jewelerynet.com/WorldGold/index.html
The pieces of the puzzle:
1.World Gold Council
2.BIS
3.Washington Agreement
4.The Swiss
5.The Dutch Announcement
6.The South African Mines
7.Statement by FOA 12/6/99 #20446
8.North American and Australia mines
9.Paper Gold Market
10.Summary

Read this statement carefully:
1.The World Gold Council an association of the worlds leading gold producers dedicated to the promotion of Gold.
The World Gold Council is a non-profit association of the worlds leading Gold producers ,established to promote the use of Gold.With headquarters in Geneva. The council is represented by a net work of offices in the major centers OF GOLD DEMAND AROUND THE WORLD and its promotional activities cover markets representing some 3/4 of the worlds consumption of Gold.
The nature of the work much of which is in close partnership with the local Gold trade and industry,varies according to the different needs and stages of devolopment of the countries,and of the forms(jewelery,bars,coins,dentistry etc.)in which Gold is most commonly sold or held.
The councils programs and skilled staff help to improve Gold products and DISTRIBUTION systems,and they provide specialist Gold information and economic services to large holders of Gold. Its primary focus in recent years has been on facilitating the REMOVAL of structual impediments to the free flow of Gold,thereby encouraging its more widespread acquisition and retention.

2.& 7. Bank for International settlements.Statement by FOA:
"You see only the BIS could destroy the present Gold game,because they represent the ability to price and move physical Gold independently of London(or COMEX or anyone else)literally off market.(Dutch deal)It's in their charter.When big trader(China CB)wants to be close to the EURO guess where the BIS opens another office."(Hong KONG?)

3.Washington Agreement; This was the first coordinated movement away from the paper Gold market.

4.The Swiss-Have the authorization to start selling up to 1300 tonnes of Gold next year.

5.The Dutch announced they will be selling THRU THE BIS next year.

6.The South African mines-buying Gold from BOE and STOCKPILING Gold.

8.North American and Austrlian mines-haven't announced intentions yet.

9.Paper Gold market-Will collapse due to no physical Gold to cover contracts.

10.Summary:
The WGC along with the BIS(both with headquarters in Switzerland) is in the process of creating the infrastructure necessary to implement a worldwide physical Gold market INDEPENDENT of the present Gold markets which are mostly paper.To make this market work,they need Gold.
The Gold has just now been pledged by the Dutch for the new market.The South Africans who supply 20% of the worlds demand are stockpiling for when the new Gold market opens.The Swiss are backing the new Gold market with 1300 tonnes.Some have inside information about this such as ANOTHER/FOA.If mainstream finds out to soon...Panic time Big Time!
This seems to be the scenario which is falling into place slowly,right now!!! Comments Welcome!
Those in the know.....buy Gold.....beesting.

nickel62 (12/8/99; 7:17:10MDT - Msg ID:20576)
I just read FOA comment from yesterday and would like to repost because with todays posts seems to be very significant.Sorry if evrybody else has already gotten the point.
FOA (12/07/99; 20:24:19MDT - Msg ID:20535)
Reply
Bill (12/7/99; 0:04:55MDT - Msg ID:20460)
Question to FOA and/or ANYONE ELSE
QUESTION TO FOA and/or ANYONE ELSE

----------------Hannibals have managed to press the POG down to nearly what it was before the announcement. By now, anyone in his right mind has to know the POG is manipulated. The natural price pressure would seem to be up. -----------

Bill, the problem begins because you (and most everyone else) associate the price pressures on the supply and demand of physical with price pressures on the supply and demand of (comex) futures. For discussion we will leave out all the other paper gold items.
Today, we look to the last contract traded to tell us what the price of gold is sold for. Even though the demand / supply for physical may indicate "up", the demand / supply of comex paper can be altered to force the last trade "down". Truly, if most of the players don't take delivery, and I have an unlimited fractional reserve bank account, I can print contract supply well over demand. As this natural demand / supply function works it's magic, the price falls until discouraged longs fall away.
So, the natural price we refer to must be clearly understood.

------The ability to force the POG down much further doesn't seem likely. -----------

It all depends on how much cash reserves I have to create long or short contract positions. I, as a market mover am in control as long as the other market for physical can be satisfied with metal at the paper gold settlement price. Too date, this is something the system has been able to do in spite of the supply deficit.

---------Any call options that were sold before Sep could be bought back now cheaper. If you were part of this manipulation. Would you not now liquidate your upside risk and reverse your position???? (now collecting profits on the way up). ------------------

Bill, the question here is our perception of risk. For the past many years, I (as the manipulator) have contained all risk thru price direction. I don't liquidate because the other side does not want gold, they only want to hedge against price. As long as I direct price through my paper supply, you hold the risk and must fold first. I don't reverse position because I hold this franchise as long as I
can direct prices in a "political direction". To date that has been down.

-------Unless the huge short positions have already been covered and from the constant manipulation, that doesn't seem likely. It would seem that a huge short covering rally could be gained as players don't want to be caught in the same position as Oct.------

Yes, the game has changed from the Washington Agreement. But, this short position constitutes the paper marketplace as we know it. As long as it remains, the gold market does "price discovery" through the paper auction method. Cover the position through offsetting cash (or gold) settlements
and the entire marketplace is destroyed from equety reserve loses to the members. Then we revert back to a physical only arena. In other words. No body is going to cover anything because it's like shooting yourself. Therefore, this system will have to be destroyed from a competing physical arena
that conflicts in price settlement. In other words, physical priced higher than futures. Get my drift?

Thanks FOA

Be back tomorrow.

Canuck Gold (12/8/99; 7:11:16MDT - Msg ID:20575)
leonard (12/08/99; 06:22:24MDT - Msg ID:20572)
I sure hope no one seriously believes this stuff. Sounds like another collage of James Bond storylines to me. I'm positively breathless after reading it.

CG

Black Blade (12/8/99; 6:36:31MDT - Msg ID:20574)
Au down -$2.25 at $280.75 in NY
Al Fulchino: Msg #20551

Yahoo...Pokemon for adults! Priceless :)

nickel62 (12/8/99; 6:27:38MDT - Msg ID:20573)
Oro,Por favor, could you help me understand your chart better.
Thank you for your effort in producing this chart. Could you perhaps help me understand more what makes up the various components of the blue line and how they interact.And if you will what is your interpretation of the lines movement since 1994? Thank you.

leonard (12/08/99; 06:22:24MDT - Msg ID:20572)
MURDER IN THE GOLD MARKET
MURDER IN THE GOLD MARKET

by Sherman H. Skolnick

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The founder and major owner of an international financial empire, active in clandestine gold trading, was murdered. This occurred at a key point in the gold market.
Highly secretive, Edmond J. Safra died in a pre-dawn incident when two alleged masked intruders reportedly got into the heavily-secure building in Monaco, and started a fire in or near his two-story penthouse apartment. His copper-domed dwelling is atop a six-story pink stucco building containing the branch of the bank he founded and of which he was the major owner, the Republic National Bank of New York and its subsidiaries such as Safra Republic Holdings of Luxembourg. He lived a short distance from the Grimaldi family royal palace and the Monte Carlo Casino.

Safra was officially a resident of the tax-haven principality notorious for its gold smuggling and its shoreline docks and warehouses used to transfer contraband worldwide. [SEE FOOTNOTE ONE.] Ships, some reportedly without names or identification, load and unload there.

Monaco police are puzzled as to the apparent absence of his bodyguard. Was it an inside job? Safra died, suffocated from the blaze. Was the latest arson ingredient used, namely, rocket propellant, which burns furiously and rapidly leaving little trace?

Formed in 1966, Safra's banking and precious metals empire was founded and built primarily after the creation of the State of Israel, by Safra acting as the savvy money laundry expert for wealthy Sephardic Jews desiring to extract their fortunes as they were fleeing Arab countries where they resided.

Safra was reportedly an expert on gold smuggling and the use of the precious metal in secret financing of covert operations, such as political assassinations, by intelligence agencies, such as the American CIA. [SEE FOOTNOTE TWO.]

During 1999, gold bullion had declined to about 252 dollars per ounce, a record low in recent years, more than 30 dollars per oounce below the COST OF PRODUCTION of the most efficient gold mines, those in Canada. South African mines, going so deep in the earth and costly producers, complained they were being ruined. One such mine went into bankruptcy.

Gold bullion prices had a momentous upswing after September, 1999, when most of the European Central Banks made a surprise announcement that they are deferring for five years dumping of gold which previously they had done, supposedly because they did not like to have gold in their reserves anymore. Just prior to that, the Bank of England held a gold auction supposedly of some of its reserves. Actually, the Bank of England was offering gold owned only on paper, not actual gold in their possession. Upon the downfall of the Soviets, corrupt former Commissars stole thousands of tons of the Soviet gold treasury and made a crooked deal with the Dutch beholden to the Vatican.

A Dutch bank octopus, Algemene Bank Nederland, ABN, has reportedly been using that stolen gold to buy numerous banks in 15 U.S. cities. ABN's American flagship is La Salle National Bank of Chicago, a long notorious haven for secret accounts to bribe state and federal judges through offshore fund parking.

The Dutch parked this former Soviet gold at or near an airport in Switzerland, for swift, clandestine shipments anywhere on the globe.

Basically, the Bank of England was thus offering by auction Soviet gold they did not own. When currency and gold pirate, George Soros, found out, he began an attack on the Bank of England, whereby gold shot up to almost 330 dollars per ounce. This was caused, in part, by Soros pressing for actual DELIVERY of the gold offered by the Bank of England, on paper, sold to Soros and others. The possibility of demand for DELIVERY is a key part of commodity trading, although actual delivery is seldom demanded. Caught in the middle of the squeezing of the Bank of England and other "short sellers", those selling borrowed or stolen gold not yet in their possession, was reportedly Republic National Bank and Safra's gang of gold smugglers and worldwide criminals. One well-informed commentator on the rigging of the gold market, calling his essay "I Accuse", said the Republic National Bank was part of an anti-trust monopoly fraudulently forcing down the price of gold, damaging gold mine shareholders and various smaller nations. [SEE FOOTNOTE THREE.]

NO HONOR AMONG THESE THIEVES! Thus using his inside knowledge, George Soros launched his attack thereby fingering and blackmailing the criminal operations of the Bank of England and an accomplice, Goldman Sachs brokerage. Realizing gold is the "killer metal", and his opponents were relying on stolen gold not in their possession, Soros apparently was using the two-faced Safra and Safra's reported precious metals assassins.

Entering into this picture was Alan Greenspan and his highly conspiratorial PRIVATE BANK called the Federal Reserve, used in efforts to rescue those caught in the short selling trap worked by Soros. Soros was demanding huge DELIVERY from Goldman Sachs, a major gold contract peddler. To force down the price of gold by criminal means, Goldman Sachs and others had sold short subject to DELIVERY, the equivalent of TEN YEARS OF GOLDMINE PRODUCTION worldwide. And Safra and gang were in the middle. A default of a short selling contract results in the "long" buyer owning everything of the short seller. Soros was about to own Goldman Sachs and have an armlock on the Bank of England.

So Goldman Sachs reportedly was considering the invoking of a seldom-used contract provision, "force majeure", that an Act of God, horrendous storm, or such, made fulfilling the gold contract impossible. Of course, under the facts, this would be a ridiculous assertion by Goldman Sachs as aided by Greenspan. [Critics call him REDSPAN, since he acts like a rotten Soviet Commissar.]

To again fraudulently force down the price of gold, in December, 1999, the Bank of England conducted another "phantom" gold auction, purporting to sell what they did not possess. That is, the gold stolen by the Moscow criminals and handled by the Dutch with the aid of the Vatican and the Swiss. Just as gold started to collapse again, Edmond J. Safra was murdered.

Not the first time such an assassination happened. At a key point in gold treachery in the 1970s, a major gold promoter, who tangled with the paper-money crowd like the Rockefellers, was thrown to his death from the window of a building in Indianapolis, Indiana.

A flood of stories has developed. Such as, Safra was murdered by the Russian mafiya, because he double-crossed them on Russian ruble gambling. And that Safra's gang were going to finger the Russians with specifics of how the Moscow bandits embezzled billions of dollars from U.S. foreign aid and the International Monetary Fund, and others, and reportedly washed the sums through Safra's money ships.

Then there are the stories that the accused dope money laundry, Bancomer, a Mexican bank empire now spread out across the world, was reportedly criminally implicated with Safra and gang. And this, jointly with the money laundry experts disguising dope money as "soybeans" and "foreign currency" and "gold" dealing, on the Chicago Board of Trade, the Chicago Mercantile Exchange, the Chicago Stock Exchange, and the Chicago Board Options Exchange.

The more likely explanation? That the French CIA, operating in their neighbor Monaco, snuffed out Safra. Remember, the French are great fanciers of gold. When real problems develop in Monaco, the authorities there somehow call up on their neighbor, the French police. Yet, in Monaco they have some 300 police officers for about 25,000 residents---a higher proportion than in nearby Nice, France. Once in a position with the secret political police to understand such things, Safra doesn't laugh anymore. Ha! Ha!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FOOTNOTE ONE:
Princess Grace, once a movie star called Grace Kelly, then becoming wife of Grimaldi, the Monaco royal family, was murdered in a sabotaged car crash on a hill between Monaco and France. Some claim she was silenced. She apparently spoke too much about the traditional Italian and Sicilian mafia and their use of the warehouses on the Monaco shoreline and gold smuggling. Also: "Founding Father" Joseph P. Kennedy, of the Kennedy clan, lived in Monaco late in his life to be able to work secretive gold deals for his family in the U.S. where up to 1975, gold ownership by U.S. citizens was against federal law.

FOOTNOTE TWO:
In 1995 we taped a one hour TV Show, part on-location, regarding a former member of the London Gold Pool, John Tarullo and his links to the highly corrupt First National Bank of Cicero. Tarullo was tightly wound into that bank, the dominant figure of which has been Bishop Paul Marcinkus, up to 1991, head of the Vatican Bank. Now in the U.S., Marcinkus is wanted in Italy on charges of gold smuggling and dirty money washing through the Vatican Bank jointly with the American CIA and the tradiitonal mafia. Marcinkus, protects himself with his Vatican passport. He was originally from the long notorious Chicago mafia-enclave suburb of Cicero, Al Capone land. For many years, Tarullo, as he admitted to us, lived near that Bank, was active there, and arranged worldwide clandestine gold deals for the American CIA and others in the secret political police. [Sort of like Edmond J. Safra.] Tarullo was found murdered on the day in August, 1995, when our public access Cable TV show was aired.

FOOTNOTE THREE:
As to the "I Accuse" accusations against Goldman Sachs, Republic National Bank, Rockefeller's Chase Manhattan Bank, and others, criminally manipulating gold. See: Ted Butler's "I Accuse". www.gold-eagle.com/gold digest 99/butler112299.html Posted by Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee Inc. www.gata.org

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since 1958, Mr.Skolnick has been a court reformer. Since 1963, founder/chairman, Citizen's Committee to Clean Up the Courts, disclosing certain instances of judicial and other bribery and political murders. Since 1991 a regular panelist, and since 1995, moderator/producer, of one-hour,weekly public access Cable TV Show, "Broadsides", Cablecast on Channel 21, 9 p.m. each Monday in Chicago. For a heavy packet of printed stories, send $5.00 [U.S. funds] and a stamped, self-addressed business sized envelope [4-1/4 x 9-1/2 #10 size] WITH THREE STAMPS ON IT, to Citizen's Committee to Clean Up the Courts, Sherman H. Skolnick, Chairman, 9800 South Oglesby Ave., Chicago IL 60617-4870. Office, 7 days, 8 a.m. to midnight, (773) 375-5741 [PLEASE, no "just routine calls]. Before sending FAX, call.

YOU ARE URGED TO RE-POST THIS STORY FAR AND WIDE, PROVIDING YOU DON'T TAKE STORY OUT OF CONTEXT OR BUTCHER IT UP.

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Cavan Man (12/08/99; 06:18:50MDT - Msg ID:20571)
London Times Link
I supplied another bad link. Oops. Go to WND website for link in today's edition. Apologies to all

Cavan Man (12/08/99; 06:16:41MDT - Msg ID:20570)
London Times: Thatcher Blasts Euro Army
http://www.the-times.co.uk/news/pages/tim/99/12/08/timnwsnws01025.htm?999
Lady Thatcher says a standing EU armed force could threaten NATO and could create a Euro superstate. Isn't that "the road ahead"?

FOA, better give LT a "heads up". She's OK by me.

ORO (12/8/99; 5:41:19MDT - Msg ID:20569)
Dollar Supply and Demand
http://www.economagic.com/pdf/38_27_179_9941942.pdf
The URL is a chart I calculated based on US Dollar Debt Demand, DDD, and growth in the dollar volume of the US economy and the debt that feeds it. The aggregate interest rate taken was the Eurodollar rate, since it is the most economically sensitive and relates to both long and short term rates in the US rather than the Fed rate alone for short term rates here and the various bonds for the long rate.

The key is the blue line. Above 0.01, the Balance is expansionary - meaning debt interest payment demand is being met by the creation of new debt and by growth in the nominal value of main street. Below 0.01, there is a deficit of money, price, and debt growth relative to demand for dollars to settle debt.

Not surprisingly, the recessionary periods occur when we fall below 0.01 for extended periods. By looking at the Fed Funds rate adjusted for inflation, we can see how the Fed trailed in tightening, and ended up tightening too much, at every turn. US interest rates were kept very high during Volcker's time at the Fed, and helped reduce the rate of price inflation. Where before Volcker the real Fed rate was below or just at 0. After he started his money supply control program, real fed rates remained above 0, substantially at the 2.5% level (real interest rate)

CoBra(too) (12/8/99; 5:40:51MDT - Msg ID:20568)
@ beestings ID 20563
Re: Realization-Birth of new Gold Market!

Beesting, is it coincidence that the European CB's have an
estimated 2.000 tons of gold on loan (lease, forwards or other derivative contracts) and the Washington Agreement allows for max. 2kt to be sold over a 5yr period, with the Dutch providing the missing link, or 300t?

Even if the Swiss sales are still not legally or politically assured, the BIS is located in Basle and it will still sum up nicely! Anyhow, it seems the Euro CB's want to make absolutely sure their gold reserve assets will be the PHYSICAL reserve asset, the only real insurance and protection in times of turbulence.
And turbulent times in the economy, currency, equity and debt bubble markets seem inevitable.
Thoughts? CB2

Peter Asher (12/8/99; 4:33:10MDT - Msg ID:20567)
Al Fulchino (12/07/99; 21:35:16MDT - Msg ID:20551)
Nice reality check!

Peter Asher (12/8/99; 4:17:39MDT - Msg ID:20566)
The ticking clock (Double meaning)
Was having an Insomniac chat with one of the others and realized I had a post.

Yes, all of a sudden Y2K is heating up again. Looks like the virus thing could cause enough
trouble to spoke the herd. The Mobilization of military and guard units is comfortable from the
urban riot view point, but scary from the political and Kent State viewpoint. --- From Neil
Young's 'Harvest' album, Ohio, "Better get down to it, soldiers are cutting us down, should have
been done long ago!" Would the Guard be any less "Trigger happy" now, than they were back then?

The Canadian "Mobilization of manpower, vehicles, equipment, food and clothing." translates
to Governmental conscription and theft.

Maybe we'll be having refugee camps on our side of the border for them. If it gets that bad here
too the slogan may be "Vote with your ocean going yacht."

It seems like the Y2K viewpoint has gone from near hysteria to complacency and now at the last
minute, the governments who were trying to calm everybody down are scaring the ---- out of us.

Also, I think alot of people are suddenly saying "Omigod, there really is going to be a January
1st".

Aristotle (12/8/99; 3:58:13MDT - Msg ID:20565)
Thoughts on the issue of TIMING IS EVERYTHING that's been discussed lately in regard to Gold
You are born penniless, but hopefully born with the potential and upbringing to become healthy, vigorous and productive. To master the art of timing requires little more than to realize that upon leaving the nest at a young age it is precisely time to start to SELL, SELL, SELL! Sell your productivity. Take the most able years of your broad middle-age to expand your skills and knowledge and to produce something the world wants or needs. Sell your time, energy, and capability to the highest acceptable bidder. Throughout your life strive to improve your special talents or capabilities, and strive to make your field of passion also your field of employment. Your only obligation is to prepare yourself for your feeble years by producing an excess during your productive years, and living with discipline so that you will have adequate savings to draw upon until the day that your spirit flees your body for a more suitable residence.

Part of the discipline that assists you with your obligation to yourself is the wisdom not to be duped into selling your productivity for less than what it's worth or for false promises, and don't squander your meaningful and important savings by chasing uncertain rewards for undue risk.

Truly, what is a dollar but an empty promise? A promise that springs into existance as easily as a loan contract. A promise that the borrower will one day give that dollar back, and a promise that the issuer will at any given time exchange such a dollar for nothing more than another dollar. If you are willing to sell your valuable productivity for payment in dollars (or any other fiat currency,) the quality of your discipline must either be called into question, or else you have satisfactorily called the currency into question and found it to be one in which borrowers cannot ever be allowed to default and, more importantly, the supply can't be issued (expanded) to such high levels and at a rate such that the purchasing power is eroded, or be capable of contracting such that businesses and the economy fall into a recession or depression. A careful review of fiat currencies and fractional-reserve lending practices will reveal that no fiat currency can suitably pass muster.

So there you have it. When you strive to master the all-important art of timing your investments, the most crucial time is every payday in which you are, in truth, selling yourself--selling your own time, labor, and productivity. Are you being paid-in-full on each payday, or are you accepting an empty paper promise of payment built upon the strength of and the continuation of the confidence of everyone in society. Are you worth payment-in-full? Have you ever received an ounce of honest money for a day in your life? You can perfect your investment timing by being paid in Gold--you would be paid-in-full at the very moment that you sold your productivity. But in an acknowledgement of the currency structure of the present realm, for your own convenience, take your dollar paycheck and first use it to pay your various bills to all of the others who have been duped into accepting dollars for the sale of their own products and services. Anything left over represents your excess production, and is almost suitable for saving. Since your employer probably paid you originally in dollars, it is up to your own discipline to convert this excess into Gold to effect your own immediate payment-in-full.

Held as Gold, your excess production has now become suitable for saving until the day arrives that your feeble old age forces you to become a net spender instead of a net saver. The timing couldn't be any easier or more evident! And the best news of all, with extraordinary market conditions giving us Gold these days at levels that haven't been seen since 1979, anyone who has previously elected to try to make due for the long haul with empty promises (dollars) as savings and by taking various risks for the hope of equally empty rewards (dollar-denominated dividends (if any) and capital gains or losses) in the attempt to beat inflation now has a golden opportunity to reevaluate their position and their discipline to acquire their preferred level of real savings in Gold as the honest and worthy late-payment for your life's past excess efforts. Be comfortable in your own ability to meet your life's needs, but don't rely on the dollar to be the caretaker of your savings.

Gold. Save you some. ---Aristotle

Black Blade (12/8/99; 1:59:44MDT - Msg ID:20564)
Gold Auction of a different kind
Wallstreet Journal, Dec. 3

Gold cache from the S.S. Central America to be auctioned at Sotheby's Dec. 8 and 9. The S.S. Central America sank in a hurricane 200 miles off the coast of the Carolina's in 1857. The shipwreck was found in 1987, and after a long legal battle, permission was granted for the auction to proceed. This auction represents 7.9% of the treasure trove. This portion is to pay off the insurers who successfully argued in court that, as they had paid off losses in 1857, they had a claim to the gold.

The Central America disaster resulted in the loss of 428 lives, some were saved after days of being set adrift. Many were gold-rush prospectors from California returning home with their fortunes. Several $20 gold pieces are expected to sell for $700 to $1000, and one particular ingot is expected to fetch between $250,000 and $300,000.

beesting (12/8/99; 1:03:24MDT - Msg ID:20563)
REALIZATION-The Birth of the new physical Gold market.
http://www.jewelerynet.com/WorldGold/index.html
The pieces of the puzzle:
1.World Gold Council
2.BIS
3.Washington Agreement
4.The Swiss
5.The Dutch Announcement
6.The South African Mines
7.Statement by FOA 12/6/99 #20446
8.North American and Australia mines
9.Paper Gold Market
10.Summary

Read this statement carefully:
1.The World Gold Council an association of the worlds leading gold producers dedicated to the promotion of Gold.
The World Gold Council is a non-profit association of the worlds leading Gold producers ,established to promote the use of Gold.With headquarters in Geneva. The council is represented by a net work of offices in the major centers OF GOLD DEMAND AROUND THE WORLD and its promotional activities cover markets representing some 3/4 of the worlds consumption of Gold.
The nature of the work much of which is in close partnership with the local Gold trade and industry,varies according to the different needs and stages of devolopment of the countries,and of the forms(jewelery,bars,coins,dentistry etc.)in which Gold is most commonly sold or held.
The councils programs and skilled staff help to improve Gold products and DISTRIBUTION systems,and they provide specialist Gold information and economic services to large holders of Gold. Its primary focus in recent years has been on facilitating the REMOVAL of structual impediments to the free flow of Gold,thereby encouraging its more widespread acquisition and retention.

2.& 7. Bank for International settlements.Statement by FOA:
"You see only the BIS could destroy the present Gold game,because they represent the ability to price and move physical Gold independently of London(or COMEX or anyone else)literally off market.(Dutch deal)It's in their charter.When big trader(China CB)wants to be close to the EURO guess where the BIS opens another office."(Hong KONG?)

3.Washington Agreement; This was the first coordinated movement away from the paper Gold market.

4.The Swiss-Have the authorization to start selling up to 1300 tonnes of Gold next year.

5.The Dutch announced they will be selling THRU THE BIS next year.

6.The South African mines-buying Gold from BOE and STOCKPILING Gold.

8.North American and Austrlian mines-haven't announced intentions yet.

9.Paper Gold market-Will collapse due to no physical Gold to cover contracts.

10.Summary:
The WGC along with the BIS(both with headquarters in Switzerland) is in the process of creating the infrastructure necessary to implement a worldwide physical Gold market INDEPENDENT of the present Gold markets which are mostly paper.To make this market work,they need Gold.
The Gold has just now been pledged by the Dutch for the new market.The South Africans who supply 20% of the worlds demand are stockpiling for when the new Gold market opens.The Swiss are backing the new Gold market with 1300 tonnes.Some have inside information about this such as ANOTHER/FOA.If mainstream finds out to soon...Panic time Big Time!
This seems to be the scenario which is falling into place slowly,right now!!! Comments Welcome!
Those in the know.....buy Gold.....beesting.

SteveH (12/08/99; 00:32:03MDT - Msg ID:20562)
Dec. gold now...
$288.00

SteveH (12/08/99; 00:30:28MDT - Msg ID:20561)
I did; did you?
Wrote all 100 senators and all my own state's representatives with a copy of the GATA letter. Pheww!! Let's hope it does some good.

Click Here to view yesterday's discussion.

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