Welcome to the USAGOLD Gold Discussion Archives. Looking to buy gold coins and bullion? The archives of this gold discussion forum are a treasure trove of information to educate investors about protecting their wealth through portfolio diversification with private gold ownership. The discussion forum also covers the wider issues of the past, present, and future role of gold in international monetary policy and the dynamics of the modern gold markets. To join the debate request a discussion password here.
The opinions posted by all guests at this forum are expressly their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the management or staff of USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals. The hosting of this forum shall therefore not be construed as equivalent to endorsement by USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals of any of the opinions posted here.
ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 5/7/2001 All times are U.S. Mountain Time (Yesterday's Discussion.) megatron (05/07/01; 23:15:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 53219) Cali Bonds I wonder how many idiots in California will buy these bonds, to tax themselves in the future? Horatio (05/07/01; 22:52:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 53218) McVeigh Janet Reno & Bill Klinton and yes Hillary Created Tim Mc Veigh.I heard rumblings that Hillary was directing Reno behind the scenes.Todays letters by Mc Veigh written to his friend ,Popov was very revealing about the intellagence and sincereity of Mc Veigh and the way his mind works.If the tradgedy of WACO and Ruby Ridge were properly dealt with,those with the mind set of McVeigh could have been avoided and the Gumment knew it. They have hundreds of psycology and "Profile "people working for them ,thay had to know someone out there was going to retaliate.Yet they chose to hang tough and find ATF and FBI innocent and gave them Bonus to boot. And again last week it was revealed the FBI kept an innocent man in jail for 30 years.Americas government is doing what all governments do ,protect themselves from the people.A major dose of humility by the government is going to be needed if U.S. is going to survive the up coming Dollar crash and civil disorder.Bush needs to follow the POPE's footsteps and apologise to the Nation for past misdeeds. Just as the POPE makes peace with the Jews and Moslems and Orthodox Christian Church .Government needs to make peace with the People. Black Blade (05/07/01; 22:04:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 53217) Calif. Assembly Approves Power Bond Sale http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/010507/business_utilities_california_bonds_dc_3.html Snippit:SACRAMENTO, Calif. (Reuters) - The California Assembly approved a plan Monday to sell $13.4 billion in bonds to pay for electricity during the state's power crisis, marking what would be the biggest municipal bond issue in U.S. history.Black Blade: Californian taxe rates are going up. Someone has to service this new debt. Thanks are due to Der Kommissar Davis. While the SS Kalifornia slips beneath the waves, there is time for some to jump into Golden lifeboats amid the inevitable carnage. Horatio (05/07/01; 22:00:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 53216) (No Subject) Anglo to splitBonanza Silver up 100 % Mr Gresham (05/07/01; 21:40:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 53215) outage Days like today, I get that little panic in the pit of my stomach: how will we communicate if the Net goes down? (Does MK have a message number with a recording?) Black Blade (05/07/01; 21:04:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 53214) Power Scramble http://www.forbes.com/2001/04/23/power.html Snippit:NEW YORK - Rolling blackouts and a bankrupt utility in California have touched off much soul-searching throughout the country about how best to run the country's electrical grid and how best to keep electricity prices manageable for consumers and businesses, while allowing utilities to compete in the open market.Black Blade: Article has several links to other Forbes articles on the energy crisis. Y2K? Ha! This energy crisis may yet be all that Y2K was supposed to be. Black Blade (05/07/01; 20:58:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 53213) Rolling Blackouts Possible - Actually Just Started http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/kpix/20010507/lo/421_1.html Snippit:The possibility of rolling blackouts grew stronger mid-morning Monday. By noon, the state stood under a Stage 2 power alert.Black Blade: Rolling blackouts statewide started about 3 hours ago. ".. and they danced, sang, and played all summer long….in the dark." Recent rumors were that there would be about 90 days of rolling blackouts in California this ummer. Looks like they got an early start. BTW, heard that 3com may go chapter 11. So far just a rumor. Tree in the Forest (05/07/01; 20:18:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 53212) COMEX The Comex is strangely quiet. Silver slowly trickling out. Gold comatose with stock of around 800,000 oz. Tree in the Forest (05/07/01; 20:16:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 53211) Galearis, auspec Galearis: When you are feeling low and bemoaning the current metals market, think on this: West Point gold is now custodial gold. They are desparate. This can only lead to default. It means that the end time is soon.auspec: I had a reply to you last Friday and lost it! I shall rewrite it. auspec (05/07/01; 19:50:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 53210) Chump Change {Not} http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_01/chapman050801pv.html From Robert Chapman @ GE for those wondering where some of the bigger players are putting money:"It was a stunning revelation when at the FT Gold Conference, the World Gold Council's Robert Weinberg said, 35 high net worth investors have invested some $800 million in the purchase of approximately 90 tons of gold in the last year."Comment: Kathud, Kathud, Henri! Galearis (05/07/01; 18:58:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 53209) @ megatron re silver.... silver maples Hello,Nice to have USAGOLD up again, yes?I have no doubt about a growing shortage of silver in North America. It is already worse in Europe where most of their bullion is not in the form that we would find useful. At the same time there will be regional disparities of plenty and scarcity on this side of the water. There is still plenty in the east - Maples, that is - if one doesn't mind the premium added for them (for which reason I do not advocate them). For that matter there is still plenty of wafers (JMs) and bars of small to large sizes (which I do advocate). All this, of course, of anecdotal value only - and in no way indicates the true shortage situation.Anecdotal too is Mexico allegedly reaching out into the spot market for their minting needs. Canada and the US are both silver producers and apparently their stocks are not what they should be. Best we watch for the closing of refineries. Then we will ALL know the shortage is well and truly HERE. All refineries are by now a Handy and Harmon waiting to happen.I am continually mystified that all these news items implying, no, YELLING SHORTAGE are so constantly/perpetually missed by the investing public. Perhaps everyone is too distracted by their losses of "real money" on the stock markets to notice the other money available to them.Trust me, they will notice when this too is all gone (smile) Best regards,G. RAP (05/07/01; 18:42:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 53208) UASGOLD down due kalifornia blackout?? http://www.caiso.com/SystemStatus.html Kalifornia in stage three alert again. Randy (@ The Tower) (05/07/01; 18:21:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 53207) Internet access has now been restored after a general service outage this afternoon So much to talk about, yet so little time!Are you fully prepared for the coming transition?got gold? USAGOLD (05/07/01; 15:57:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 53206) Test. . . Getting reports of problems. . . .Just testing. megatron (05/07/01; 12:32:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 53205) Galearis Was informed by my silver dealer here in the NorthWest that no more stock of 2001 MapleLeafs are available until Aug. Said they could sell me 400-2000's. That's all they had. They are a very large dealer. Old Yeller (05/07/01; 10:28:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 53204) Financial Times performs debunking operation http://markets.ft.com/ft/gx.cgi/ftc?pagename=View&c=Article&cid=FT3H2YODFMC&live=true&tagid=IXL1WGBYICC&subheading=commodities It would seem that a rather broad and conclusive verdict has been delivered about this little issue by the Financial Times.Boy,that's a relief.Too bad they didn't ask Reg Howe about his take on the situation;but then they'd have to write a real,objective piece.Thanks to cjk at Kitco for the link. Galearis (05/07/01; 10:18:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 53203) On silver: an email to Rhody http://www.gloomdoom.com/05-02-01.html I thought I would share an email with the group. As gold and silver bugs, we can all, from time to time, sadden under the weight of doubt. So this becomes a "spin" and a rationale for what we are and why we do it. I hope it finds some connection with the group - and cheers up those of us (me to) who from time to time question the reality of the times and our responses to it. The article I refer to is in the link above - which is recommended.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I don't share your temporary gloom about the future of hard (pm) asset money, my dear brother. I don't believe anything has changed significantly at all. It is still "it's the dollar, stupid" and the stock market mania - derivative driven both; the dollar derived from nothing and representing nothing and stocks and derivatives over-valued in dollars that are themselves "overvalued".I know your moods can overwelm. "They" may even, as you say, be able to keep the POS papered down in price (or frozen) for a time even when there are NO above ground stocks left. But that that simply underlines/confirms the reality that the present COMEX market is not real. It would BE the confirmation of the death of COMEX. At worst it would be concurrent with the death of western (or all) stock markets and just another symptom of the fatal malaise.The only change I see in most of the writings of pundit bears are now focusing increasingly on this alone. They ignore the SMs because they really don't have to be discussed - simply because they are not performing rationally. They focus on their illogic and are a source of hard (?) information and a lot of entertainment value of the follies of human behavior. This is what the article below ends up saying. It's not the Titanic image that works in this scenario, it's the plane taking off and reaching into the fatal stall.Meanwhile PHYSICAL gold, bullion and coin, demand continues to roar and we are seeing the shortages talked about - as lately as yesterday by an out-of-the-loop collectibles dealer who cannot find new stock. I have little doubt that Kodac and other users have a fatal disease - they, as clients of the Silver Users' Institute, are part of the problem and will also have to pay the price. When the great ship stalls and crashes and ALL (?) paper burns, those who bought the bullion will have something, those that didn't won't. It all boils down to perception: ask yourself why sterling is so pricey still - and even more so. Is it because these items are more serviceable than stainless steel - or is it because the buyers and sellers of used sterling are still dealing in it as a fabricated asset money? Why, in turn, would people pay outlandish prices for 10K gold that is only .416 pure? The answer is public perception. The public, even our head-in-the-sands western public, still consider this material as money cast into forms.All is driven by perception - incorrect or not - from the belief for those in the SMs that the FED will continue to inflate in a "healthy" fashion to keep the bull alive, the "value" of the USD, to the pms that ARE ALL considered hard money items. Sterling and silver, 10K, 14K, 18K and bullion coins will be money - they still are to the public. Remember always when you walk in the antique shows that this is what drives the curious prices for sterling AND gold, that both the dealers and those that buy look on this material as money assets. Why WOULD people purchase and pay outlandishly for these impoverished gold amalgams if MOST of this is NOT the perception. The same can be said for the less impoverished amalgams involving silver.The vast majority of us will be vastly the poorer in life style after the dust settles. Worst case scenario: if we have a "barter rich" economy, we will still be the richer amidst an ocean of poverty stricken moral majority people that never thought all this was very interesting, bank account proponents, dot comers and other speculators in paper. And that is what hedging is all about, yes? I will have the junk silver, the gold rings and sterling scrap to haul around with my weigh scales to the local farmers markets (and new-focus flea markets) and I will be trading for my daily bread. I will know that then, as now, the public will STILL consider this material the superior asset. I will not (probably) even then be much cursing Al Greenspan, who fought the good fight and did what he thought could stave off the inevitable crash of the long wave cycle - but I will not be as happy as I am right now by a long shot. I will also not be a finger pointer and one of the mob out for the blood of the goat; I will be too busy trying to survive. ge (05/07/01; 10:05:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 53202) Mr Gresham msg#: 53147 In search of that 3-dimensional envelope, I wander into the jungle of ideas:I guess there is a difference between the classical gold standard (pre World War I) and the gold exchange standard of Bretton Woods and interwar period (between WWI & WWII). DeGaulle's major monetary adviser, the classical gold-standard economist Jacques Rueff was very insistent on this difference. In the gold-exchange standard, one paper currency is as good as gold. I vote for the classical one. http://www.mises.org/money/4s5.aspTrade cycle can occur even with 100% gold backing says Mises:…. "The monetary explanation of the trade cycle is not entirely new. The English "Currency School" has already tried to explain the boom by the extension of credit resulting from the issue of bank notes without metallic backing. Nevertheless, this school did not see that bank accounts which could be drawn upon at any time by means of checks, that is to say, current accounts, play exactly the same role in the extension of credit as bank notes. Consequently the expansion of credit can result not only from the excessive issue of bank notes but also from the opening of excessive current accounts." …. Enjoying myself, I vote for the abolition of the fractional reserve banking. The difference between M1, M2 and M3 whither away. Well, if we all agree on these points, Money/GDP ratio climbs to at least 0.5 to 0.7. Broken Tee (05/07/01; 09:52:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 53201) Gasoline Watch - Clarification grade of gas in question, Regular Unleaded Broken Tee (05/07/01; 09:45:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 53200) Gasoline Watch Cost of Gas at a neigborhood 7-11 in Denver, Colorado this morning $1.75.9. Up 6 cents from last week. Randy (@ The Tower) (05/07/01; 09:42:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 53199) Over One Hundred Years Old...in *this* particular form (there's no telling what may have preceded) http://www.usagold.com/onlinestore/special.html These coins have been the embodiment of wealth since before you were born. The gold contained therein has had a steady lineage of ownership since the day it was laboriously wrested from the firm grip of Mother Earth. It was fully owned yesterday, and even as we speak it is owned today; and will be tomorrow. Will history count you among the unbroken line of living souls who held sole and undisputable ownership (meaning, possession) of this "wealth of kings"? There is only one way to make it so.... engage. aunuggets (05/07/01; 07:36:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 53198) Lease Rates In Negative Territory ??? www.kitco.com Noticed lease rates at (minus) -1.9000 percent this morning on Kitco quotes. Guess the BBs are now going to start paying "US" to take their "worthless stuff" !! (big grin) Topaz (05/07/01; 07:09:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 53197) Europe-wide Governance. Theres a lot of talk from Europe lately relating to a shift in EU operation from "union" to "government" - with all the attendant noise (mostly) anti - and pro.The doomsayers of course have a mountain of data (factual and anecdotal) to dismiss such a notion out-of-hand however the concept simply won't go away.On face value it seems a ludicrous proposal - Who'd hand over their Economic, Monetary, Souvereign and Fiscal rights to Brussels no matter how well planned the "union" appeared? - Well!!.....It may not be all that bad an idea after all, and certainly good for Gold.Our psudo-democrasie's (Yes, the one's where much ado is made about freedom, voting, rights - yudda) all apparently suffer from the same illusion - we conceptually control, via the Ballot-box, our own destiny "EXCEPT" that which is the very lifeblood of our nirvana......."The Money".A democratic system cannot operate when "Government" has direct control of Monetary policy, or so it seems...and the EU, in persuing a Gov't role, would be also considering a reduction in it's Monetary management capacity.Well, not exactly it's "management" role but I think it fair to assume they would relinquish the ultimate denominator role to "others"..........and what "Other" asset class provides this "outstanding" ultimate denominator spec? Why Gold of course! Netking (05/07/01; 03:53:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 53196) Another golden thought. "Living in a garage doesn't make you a car any more than going to a Church makes you a Christian...even rats can go to Church." It's what we do with what we believe that counts - my dimes worth friends. Belgian (05/07/01; 02:39:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 53195) HBM/AUSPEC/USUL/GRESHAM/ HBM: I do accept the vision (yours also) of the "very powerful" and "very wealthy" . But there is something fatalistic in that notion of an all overwhelming force.I rather agree with Sir, Gresham that there definitely are "captains" who can rock the goldboat. The simple maths, already done here, are enough reason, to hold on to "the question". (intellectual honesty)Usul, suggests some fear, to take any action against the very powerful (somewhat mythical). As I said before...there are still pirates around. This logic is constantly disturbing me in accepting that all are ruled all the time.The first space-tourist already happened. What does it take more to sop up 1.000 tonnes of gold in one go ? A wolf in sheepskin ?Auspec : Zelotes-#53162In contrast wih most of us here, I do consider the goldproducers as the third force in gold with their underground reserves. It is a very brave initiative from GATA to work on their mobilisation, despite their fragmentation (big + small miners-globally). The GATA-pressure might force them to change the unfolding speed of what I strongly suspect as a hidden agenda, collusive or not. The more they order so called neutral intellectuals to do studies (LBS) and publicise them...the more I suspect they have to hide an essential link in the total goldpicture. The entire goldproducer community is dominated by the Big five. In spite of the fragmentation-handicap, they do not behave in a normal way. I can only speculate on their deeper motives. Frustrating, isn't it.In all communiques they are issuing...I read more between their lines than what they actually try to make us believe.Maybe some paranoia is taking hold of me (smile).Goldproducers have the capacity to create gold-euphoria at the right moment. They don't have to accept persé the gloom and doom. They have thousands of underground tonnes to defend and valuate. One day all this small and big fishes will swim into the same direction even if it has to be against the current. They will be involved in the revaluation of gold. Naive ? justamereBear (05/07/01; 00:40:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 53194) Black Blade Hear!! Hear!! to both the last postsj'Bear Black Blade (05/07/01; 00:23:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 53193) Of Golden Lifeboats - WSJ Article http://www.thebulliondesk.com/DJNews\4861414.htm Snippit:"I've sold more gold coins to stockbrokers over the past nine months than I have over the past 15 years," says Mr. Ritchie, head of Monetary Portfolio Consultants in Scottsdale, Ariz. Although no one is keeping hard statistics, anecdotal and other evidence suggests that some shell-shocked investors may be putting less money into the stock market and more money into so-called hard assets. One appealing feature of hard assets is that they have intrinsic value and will always be worth something. But the primary lure is that hard assets are negatively correlated with the equities and fixed-income markets. Thus, when stocks and bonds fall, the values of hard assets typically rise.A study from Ibbotson Associates of Chicago found that in 1973 and 1979, two years impacted by oil-price shocks, commodity-related hard assets outperformed the stock market, returning 32% in 1973 and 70% in 1979.Black Blade: As many of us have speculated. Manning the Golden lifeboats. And we are in the shadow of an energy crisis as well. From the mainstream press no less. Check Mate! Black Blade (05/07/01; 00:15:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 53192) Layoffs Renew Recession Fears http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45726-2001May4.html Snippit:The unemployment rate rose to 4.5 percent from 2.3 percent in March, with 6.4 million Americans now out of work and looking for jobs. Most forecasters expect the jobless rate to rise to 5 percent by the end of the year. "…over the past 50 years, there had never been back-to-back months of declining payroll employment without a recession following."Black Blade: If next set of unemployment numbers are as bad or worse than those released on Friday, it could crater the markets as consumer confidence continues to wane. I suspect that that will occur. ViewYesterday's Discussion.
Permission to reprint is hereby granted where the USAGOLD name is cited along with our web address, mailing address and phone number. For electronic reproductions, citing the post heading and the http://www.usagold.com/cpmforum/ website address as the source is sufficient.