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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 5/6/2001
All times are U.S. Mountain Time
(Yesterday's Discussion.)
gidsek
(05/06/01; 23:17:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 53191)
MK @ USAGOLD
Terrific post earlier, one comment if I may.
--------
"In fact there is a danger there that you might have overlooked. Take for instance the widely disseminated Kemp/Polyconomics New Bretton Woods proposal of a gold standard being bandied about in the conservative press. That proposal pegs the price of gold at $300. A major problem quickly surfaces: Whatever's left of the U.S. gold supply would disappear completely within six months of posting the $300 price -- "
---------
Wanniskis' scenario doesn't include a "peg" to gold in the sense that the USG will sell the stuff for $300 (if by the U.S. gold supply you mean the 8000 tonnes that the treasury supposedly has). The idea is to manipulate the money supply, dollar "liquidity" if you will such that the market will price gold at $300 an ounce.
That being said it seems like a down-right silly idea to me.
First, I haven't been able to figure out the reason for that $300 dollar an ounce figure other than than that Jude feels for whatever reasons that there aren't enough bucks in the economy and that there should be somewhat more than there are now. Jude has refered to Greenspan as a "deflationist".
Second, if/when international investment patterns and capital flows change or reverse and the US was committed to keeping the market price of gold at $300/oz I shudder to think what price US bonds would fetch if that is all there is on offer to "sop up" all those extra dollars. Perhaps thats what you meant? That gold sales would be forced upon the US in order to adhere to a $300/oz policy? That could well be true but I know it is not a part of Wanniskis' or Kemps' thinking.
Thirdly W & K seem unaware that the price they favour fixing is that of a type of paper and not that of gold at all. I wonder how well the US economy would function with monetary policy devoted to managing the price of a small subset of derivatives.
I read and enjoyed Wanniskis' treatise on supply side economics but this gold price idea of his is from another planet.
gidsek
Goldfly
(05/06/01; 23:03:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 53190)
Or this?
One of my all-time favorites
Socialism will work in only two places-
Heaven: Where the don't need it, and
Hell: Where they already have it.
-Winston Churchill
Goldfly
(05/06/01; 23:01:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 53189)
Michael's Question
How about this?
"If My requests are not granted, Russia will spread its errors throughout the world, raising up wars and persecutions against the Church. The good will be martryed, the Holy Father will suffer much and various nations will be annihilated."
----The Virgin Mary to the Children at Fatima in July 1917, three months prior to the Bolshevik revolution.
Mr Gresham
(05/06/01; 22:19:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 53188)
Stephen Roach
http://www.bearforum.com/cgi-bin/bbs.pl?read=142799
Don't miss this hearfelt statement from an econ pro.
And now, off to the Trail...
Al Fulchino
(05/06/01; 21:42:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 53187)
Ted W / All
you: Al Fuchino, if your out there what do you think of the possibility of $3 gas this summer.?
me: Hey Ted, how are ya? A while back I wrote here, if I remember correctly, that we would see something like a 25-50 cent increase over last years prices. Not so far fetched, is it? We are sitting on top of those prices of last year right now.
you: I noticed today as I drove by a few stations that the 3 in the gas price is the same size for the dollar as the cents'so I dont know how credible the report of stations buying big 3's is. What say you Al?
me: In all likelihood, the 3's that you see *are* the same size and there are a couple of reasons why this would be so.
a. The larger "1" that is in the dollar position often yellows over time and a station owner would reasonably choose to keep his sign fresh looking. So he just grabs a "1" from his decimal numbers. Hope I made that clear, if not just ask and I will try again.
b. Since the price insert package usually have fewer of these numbers that go in the dollar position than all the numbers from 0 thru 9 that go in the decimal side, whoever is doing the price change may just be grabbing whatever surfaces first from his shelf or pile.
So these would be two reasons. And they are the most likely.
And by the way, I do not own any $3 inserts hahaha. But I know where to order them. BTW, my lowest priced station is 1.649 for regular.
Now, as to the point of $3 dollar gasoline. It can definietly occur, especially in areas where reformulated product is in very tight supply. I have pointed out here in the past, that the current supply problem is largely from this EPA mandated formula. This gasoline is scheduled to be in storage tanks for resale at different upcoming dates and times, yet the price surge comes before hand, due to the fact that the tanks must be purged of the old first. So the new gas comes in ahead of schedule, so that no old formula remains in the tanks.
Of course this is only part of the picture. It is summer. OPEC did get their act together. And yes refineries have their own issues. In addition, as inflation watchers well know, the intrinsic value of the paper that we trade for this fuel is not what it used to be.
Also, as the Lundberg letter pointed out recently, higher prices are the oil industry's and the customer's saving grace. Suprised to see me post this? Don't be. Higher prices, eventually bring in more product or its replacement.
I have a deja vu attitude about all of this. We will all get used to whatever price it settles out at. I remember gas at 32.9 when my Dad would pull into the neighborhood station. And others here likely remember even better. But it means nothing to my kids. Their memories will be of 99 cent gasoline hahaha. And remember gasoline is really a miraculous product.
Thanks for beckoning me here for a few moments. It is always enjoyable.
SHIFTY
(05/06/01; 21:18:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 53186)
Periodic Ponzi Update PPU
http://home.columbus.rr.com/rossl/gold.htm
Nasdaq 2,191.53 + Dow 10,951.24 = 13,142.77 divide by 2 = 6,571.38 Ponzi
Looks like they were busy while I was away.
RossL : Thank you kind Sir for the link.
$hifty
Belgian
(05/06/01; 21:13:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 53185)
Auspec....TA and crystal balls
Droke C. is undoubtly, an experienced chartist. But I've learned to relativate the usefulness of TA and Fundamentals.
Both aren't reliable (profitable) in abnormally extended periods of rise and decline. Drooy is worth a study on its own. IMO, it is literally a "Time"-bomb, with the emphasis on Time. And for the time being, Drooy and Gold (in general), are in a very positive position from TA (and fundamental) standpoint (FWIW). Altough I could write a book about all(fascinating) aspects involved in Drooy, I'm not a Drooymateur. Briefly two arguments : Time might be extremely handicapping for its future and who are we to know the finesses of its hedgebook.
Sir, please do remember that we still are in an extremely, speculative-oriented, period and environment. I've seen a similar time-wedge for TVX (and alikes). POG is also in a downward edge and a break above 275$ is supposed to give way for 300$+...etc...etc.
But all this beautifull optimistic stuff can be blown away in a matter of no time. The more knowledge we gather, the more cautious we judge and act. That's why physical gold gives me so much peace of mind.
And young wolves must act as young wolves and have their eys on fast moving preys. With my 50 summers and winters, I prefer the serene and intrinsic beauty of the yellow shiny.
You surely do understand what I'm trying to communicate.
Succes !
Gold Trail Update
(05/06/01; 20:30:53MDT - Msg ID:53184)
The Gold Trail Discussion has been Updated
The Gold Trail Discussion has been updated. Click on the link to read the latest updates.
Canuck
(05/06/01; 20:10:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 53183)
Gold for oil
I will offer a little tidbit on the ME oil for gold theory.
I have read and re-read FOA and Another's suppositions many times and have come up with this.
I went back to the POO and noticed the rapid acceleration in early 1999. A 'EIA' page suggested that the rising POO was due to Y2K scares, hoarding and stockpiling. This theory begins to fall apart after Jan. 2000 because the POO hung in over $30 for most of 2000. Even in the latter stages of 2000 and into 2001 the POO hovers near $30.
So what happened in early 1999?
Well I think Greeny began the 'pump' and oil producers not happy with getting X cents on the dollar began the process of hiking their oil. Why would they part with their oil for a 'smaller' dollar. As FOA has said repeatedly, the POO is not a supply/demand issue but a currency valuation issue.
The oil producers, I believe, hold the dollar for ransom. They can ask for $20 or $30 inflated dollars (as we have now) or $19 + X gold. A barrel of oil is a barrel of oil.
They bellow, "..pay me whatever you want...as long as its worth one barrel of oil."
We have learned recently of gold reserves changing status to 'custodial', who is to say that the $19 + X gold has put further gold into the 'custodial' stockpile, the custody of course, in the hands of the ME. Maybe more gold than we know is now non-reserve?
The trade deficit as we know has bit into the gold stockpile, maybe Christian has a point on 'payment POG'.
'Your money for nothing and your chicks for free' is hogwash.
Canuck.
Journeyman
(05/06/01; 19:55:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 53182)
You are NOT alone!! @ET
Hi ET!
I'm on a "foreign" computer & can't easily come to yur aid -- It'll be another week & a half!
But I'm still with you. Hard money will rise again!!
Regards,
Journeyman
Cavan Man
(05/06/01; 19:45:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 53181)
tedw
Sir, you are wrong. I don't make things up. I read a longish essay Father Martin wrote that was published on the www by a RC Church somewhere in Arizona. Perhaps the essay was a fraud. BTW, being a former RC, I can tell you that is what was taught by the Church; all non-RC's won't pass muster. No more on this subject from me.
JMB
(05/06/01; 18:57:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 53180)
TEDW
Please excuse the inappropriateness of my discussion on this forum.
Now you say, "It is the Holy Spirit that causes and brings us to repentance whether we realize that or not." Maybe change the ending to "...whether we want to or not."
The second paragraph is beautiful but why not end it with, "...it's entirely possible for a person to become a Christian having not wanted to." (It sure happened to Paul.)
tedw
(05/06/01; 18:38:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 53179)
JMB
http://www.usagold.com
This is not an appropriate forum for religious discussion JMB, but repentance and loving God and your neighbor is certainly the teaching of the bible.
It is the Holy Spirit that causes and brings us to repentance whether we realize that or not. Pesonally, I think its entirely possible for a person to be a Christian and not realize he is.
tedw
(05/06/01; 18:34:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 53178)
$3
http://www.usagold.com
Al Fuchino, if your out there what do you think of the possibility of $3 gas this summer.?
I noticed today as I drove by a few stations that the 3 in the gas price is the same size for the dollar as the cents'so I dont know how credible the report of stations buying big 3's is. What say you Al?
Anybody else notice whether the 3's are the same size in the dollar position as the cents positon in their area?
tedw
(05/06/01; 18:34:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 53177)
$3
http://www.usagold.com
Al Fuchino, if your out there what do you think of the possibility of $3 gas this summer.?
I noticed today as I drove by a few stations that the 3 in the gas price is the same size for the dollar as the cents'so I dont know how credible the report of stations buying big 3's is. What say you Al?
Anybody else notice whether the 3's are the same size in the dollar position as the cents positon in their area?
JMB
(05/06/01; 18:32:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 53176)
TEDW
Your opinion is shared by many people. But as you know, it is not the teaching of the Bible.
tedw
(05/06/01; 18:20:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 53175)
Cavan Man
http://www.usagold.com
Re: Father Malachi Martin
You are mistaken if you believe that Malachi thought the Roman Catholic Church was the only way to the other side.It is not of course. Malachi made it clear in those interviews that he thoght that good people of other faiths could find salvation.
Personally, Im not Catholic so I have no vested interested in the propositon, but Malachi is no longer around to defend himself.
Repentance, and loving God and your neighbor is what is required: not belonging to any particular Church.
Black Blade
(05/06/01; 17:32:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 53174)
Are lights going out in California?
http://www.WorldNetDaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=22700
Geoff Metcalf interviews state Sen. Tom McClintock on power crisis
Snippit:
I had a group of analysts from the Association of California Water Agencies come through the other day and they say it could be as many as 84 days. It's a dire situation and it is something that the governor cannot spin his way out of. It is a very simple problem: We have far more demand for electricity than we have a supply of electricity.
Black Blade: I too have heard the same assessment myself. We are in recession and an energy crisis in California of this magnitude will drive a stake through the economy. The energy crisis is spreading as the same fundamental problems in regard to energy is present throughout much of the US. People were afraid of Y2K, and yet something potentially worse looms over the horizon. Grab a "gold lifeboat."
Cavan Man
(05/06/01; 17:07:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 53173)
tedw
I am somewhat familiar with the late Fr. Martin thru his interview with Bell and some of his writing. He also predicted the second coming a couple of years ago--timing off so far as we know. Also has writtien that the RC Church is the only way over to the other side---complete balderdash. However, his credentials as an exorcist are second to none.
Black Blade
(05/06/01; 17:04:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 53172)
Generators, Davis meet Wednesday
http://www.contracostatimes.com/partners/nf/generators_20010506.htm
Snippit:
When the shareholders of Duke Energy Corp. (NYSE:DKE) gathered for the company's annual meeting, Chief Executive Richard Priory likened California's business climate to that of a Third World country: "It's no different than if it was Ecuador or Peru and we had investment decisions to make in those countries."
Black Blade: Nice way to put it. The "Golden State" - Hmmm...
Cavan Man
(05/06/01; 16:59:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 53171)
Sir Hill Billy
You give me much too much credit.
Black Blade
(05/06/01; 16:58:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 53170)
Greenspan to Take Part in BIS Meeting
http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/010506/business_economy_greenspan_dc_16.html
BASEL, Switzerland (Reuters) - U.S. Federal Reserve Board Chairman Alan Greenspan and European Central Bank President Wim Duisenberg will both take part in a meeting of central bankers on Monday at the Bank for International Settlements in Switzerland.
Black Blade: Cheetah and Dim Wim as a "Tag-Team?" Talk about serpents. Wonder what they will be discussing? ;-)
auspec
(05/06/01; 16:53:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 53169)
FOA & ALL... A Simple Question?
Why the LBMA volume?
Welcome back, FOA.
Elwood
(05/06/01; 16:52:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 53168)
USAGOLD (05/06/01; 13:22:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 53155)
------
All: Since this is Sunday, and we've had a couple religious posts, here's a question for you: Who was it that characterized socialism as "the promise of the serpent?"
------
Pope Pius XI
Divini Redemptoris
March 19, 1937
"With eyes lifted on high, our Faith sees the new heavens and the new earth described by Our first Predecessor, St. Peter. While the promises of the false prophets of this earth melt away in blood and tears, the great apocalyptic prophecy of the Redeemer shines forth in heavenly splendor: "Behold, I make all things new." "
Hill Billy Mitchell
(05/06/01; 16:52:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 53167)
Cavan Man
Sir
I am half way through "The Education of Henry Adams", as per your recommendation. Having read to this point I have come to two conclusions. Number one, the book is very philosophical in a most unusual way. Number two, you and I have much in common, for I do not know anyone personally, myself excepted, who would read the book through. The book has much to offer but requires much effort on the part of the reader.
Your friend,
HBM
auspec
(05/06/01; 16:21:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 53166)
My How Times Change
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest/baron1031.html
This is reposted {again} from Canuck #48914 and has been the matrix for MUCH discussion. Snippet {posted in 1997}:
"Second, if true, the US would have a particular interest in coordinating the funnelling of gold bullion into the Middle East in order to constrain the price of oil from rising to $40/barrel as it should be given the demand/supply situation in crude oil and maximization of Middle Eastern utilization capacities. The US wants to maintain the illusion that oil is not becoming increasingly scarce in order to avoid price inflation at home thus exploding the market bubble.....they want to avoid a 1973-74 crisis at all cost. Stability in oil prices may have come through past transactions of US treasuries to the Middle East in exchange for "price stability favours" but the Arabs increasingly have requested the real store of value: bullion. Thus the Americans may be actually orchestrating the gold sales of other CBs in the interests of "global oil price stability" objectives convincing the Australians and lesser players to sell their gold for the short term objective of containing a price rise in oil that the Saudis are under increasing pressure at home (Islamic pressures) to let go (as the Sheik suggests) .. Note that "officially" the major gold holders, the US, Switzerland, Germany and France (and most certainly England) have hung on to their CB supplies while other lesser players have been "convinced" to sell under the ruse that "gold no longer plays the hedge or security roll it once did." END
Comment: In regards to: "Note that 'officially' the major gold holders, the US, Switzerland, Germany and France {and most certainly England} have hung on to their CB supplies.."
RIGHT! Shows how much the world can turn 'on its axis' in but 4 years. Other than France ALL have serious questions {or absolute answers} in regards to a compromised CB gold position. Where will 4 more years find these excuses for financial management? "Most certainly England"??????? HA. They will be first 'into the abyss'!
a
Hill Billy Mitchell
(05/06/01; 16:19:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 53165)
Leigh - PHC
I was not aware of Patrick Henry College. I wouldn't mind sponsering a kid for summer camp some time. If you know of the need let me know. You could handle the transfer of the fiat for the fees for me. Also I would like a rain check for myself and Mrs. HMB. Will let you know someday when we are going to be in the area. You would enjoy my wife more than me. She does real things that count. She home educated all of our three daughters with very little help from me. For all of her power she is a rather meek person. She laughs and cries instantly and makes one feel that one has been in the company of an angel.
Some day we will meet. Until then I am
Sincerely yours,
HBM
Hill Billy Mitchell
(05/06/01; 16:07:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 53164)
Leigh @ # 53134 and 53146 - THE QUESTION
Lady Leigh and Sir Belgian
At the risk of being accused of one who thinks he knows it all, I do think I know the answer. It has to do with the idea of "Walking in the Footsteps of Giants". We are walking in their footsteps (footprints); however, we are not walking in their shoes. We are not giants and could never walk in their shoes. Who are they? They are "Big Trader" and kin. They are the very wealthy and the very powerful. They own and control central bank reserves. They do not need physical possession of gold and silver, as we know it. Since they own and control the depositories of incredible amounts of 400-ounce bullion bars, a simple piece of paper represents true physical holdings to them. They have the keys to the vault and not only can take out their 400-ounce bars at will, but also have the power to refuse to release those bars which are owned by the Lilliputians (those who also hold a piece of paper but have no key to the vault). The giants use central banks and their vaults to control substantial amounts of the worlds gold supply and do not need a high fiat price unless and until the fiat which they also control gets exposed as to its real worth (hence the gold truly is their insurance policy). Then and only then will they allow the price of gold to rise to its true level in terms of fiat.
Now we who accumulate our small amounts, mostly in bullion coin form, are not the Lilliputians. We are generally "Little Bittie Working Libertarians", who simply position ourselves to benefit from the inevitable destruction of fiat, namely, the USD, because we see that the GIANTS hold physical 400-ounce bars for the same reason.
There may come a time before the total destruction of the USD when the pricing structure of bullion coins will separate from the paper price, which only truly represents the fiat price of 400-ounce bars. (The paper price is a derivative of the 400-ounce bars, which are stored in bullion banks and central banks, but not a derivative of bullion coins) Somehow the coin bullion buying "little bitties" have been duped into believing that the paper price of gold is also a derivative of bullion coins. This inadvertently works to the advantage of the "little bitties" in two ways. First it keeps the price down when we are accumulating. Secondly it drives the price of coin bullion up into nose bleed stratosphere because not only will the paper price continue to be perceived as deriving from supply and demand of bullion coins but when the 400-ounce price ignites due to fiat destruction the bullion coins can be melted into the 400-ounce variety if the "little bittie" buyers all become sellers. Either way we "little bitties" win. Our only enemy is impatience. One more note: - The Arabs are not "BIG TRADER" types, nor are they "little bitties". They are Lilliputians among a very significant class of pseudo rich who dwell in the earth.
Ok, I admit, that I am in over my head in this area.
Sheepishly submitted,
HBM
PS: How do those who have the keys to the vaults get by with this paper price manipulation? I refer you to Holtzman @ # 45018 which can be found in the Hall of Fame. "…Central banks ARE mines… How can a 'first-time' gold mine such as Harmony possibly compete? It survives only while a sufficient number of central banks choose not to mine the cost-free gold out of their vaults."
Tannehill
(05/06/01; 15:53:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 53163)
Netking @ U.S. Mint buys silver
http://www.silverinstitute.org/news/pr11272000.html
Mr. Netking finally found the article about the transfer of the last remaining portion of the stockpile to the Mint, the link given above.
snippet:
U.S. National Defense Silver Stockpile Eliminated
(Washington, D.C. – November 27, 2000) The U.S. Defense National Stockpile Center (DNSC) committed to deliver its remaining stockpile of silver, nearly 15 million ounces, to the United States Mint for its coinage programs. The final balance of silver will be shipped to the U.S. Mint over the next few weeks, effectively depleting the silver stockpile.
**************
So, 15 million ounces would be 2-3 years supply. This amount now is in agreement with numbers reported by the U.S.G.S.
That's all from Tannehill
auspec
(05/06/01; 15:44:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 53162)
Zelotes: The GATA African Gold Summit
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_01/hamilton050701.html
I always look forward to Adam Hamilton's next read, good guy to have on our side. This is a great read if you missed it. Snippet:
"The actual gold mining companies themselves can probably move the gold info-war to its endgame in a single trading day. All they have to do is jointly and publicly announce either a moratorium on all new hedging and forward sales and close out their existing hedges, which demonstrably depress the gold price, or else announce a pact to jointly limit production until the gold price climbs north of some arbitrary target, say US$500 per ounce. If the African gold producers that supply over a quarter of the annual supply of mined gold decide to force the hands of the anti-gold forces, the game is over and gold will be liberated. When all the voluminous evidence for official covert gold suppression is presented to these companies in Durban, they will likely be furious and may decide to act in a unified and public way that will rock the gold market to its foundations." END
Comment: Yes, the African gold suppliers contribute approx. a fourth of world gold supply and what they do CAN make a huge difference. What will AngloGold do as far as going along with any new hedging changes? Probably hedge more to compensate. What % of South African gold is produced by Anglo? Probably 1/2 of the total amount, but still the remaining companies can make a worthy stance. It is not just mining companies that will soon see the fraudulance hoisted upon them, but also mining union representatives, political leaders, and other significant players in S.A.. Will Anglo be able to take the heat? The S.A. producers have seen fit to help fund this conference, fortunately, and dirty deeds will soon find more daylight. GATA is heading into the belly of the beast. The gold endgame clock will be advanced significantly SOON.
Thank you GATA!
Rockgrabber
(05/06/01; 15:28:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 53161)
USA GOLD
I want to express my thanks with everything I have. I bought a book a few years back. You wrote it, and I wish to thank you for relevant information. Most relevant. That book was a nice intro, but this website is priceless for info, or darn near. I just want to say thanks.
Who did say socialism was the promise of the serpent???? I cant wait to see who had such precise information. I love people who care about what is happening around them. Thanks for letting me know what is going on around me.
Rockgrabber
(05/06/01; 15:21:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 53160)
I love ya GUYS!
Mr. Hill Billy Mitchell, I love honesty in posts. Your heart feels it, post it! Thanks, close to my thoughts, and heart. The people who have been striving to obtain gold cannot be saved through any amount of monetary wealth. It can only buy you seconds of a lifetime. People do live with the now, and not later in life to, I can see.
Mr Black Blade beer is the breakfast of champions. I will not argue with that a bit. Today, just today I cracked a beer when I got up. I did research, and then I have been in the garden ever sinse. I live in So Cal. ((Dont worry about us a bit folks)), we all have our heads in the dirt. We party up untill our death. Its the way of the day. Mr. Black Blade you have been right all along, we sang , we played, we danced all summer long!!
About gardening, I see many of us have this hobby. It is a personel favorite of mine. I LOVE TO GARDEN. What great time to think. Especially when I use plants that the goverment does not want me using. Thanks for not having your heads in the dirt. I have a freind who claims ignorance is bliss....... I beg to differ. Not many who think ignorance is bliss around these parts!! May all of our gardens thrive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Randy (@ The Tower)
(05/06/01; 15:15:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 53159)
Excellent commentary, MK!
I enjoyed your walk through these monetary philosophies of our modern time, particularly those as forecast by ANOTHER and FOA. For as surely as I continually say these things, the point never seems to make it clearly through my type-written jumble of words. To the forum I have become as the constant static heard between the broadcast frequency channels of an AM radio. (But perhaps it is the only consequence to be expected for having "spread myself thin" as only some few in and outside The Tower know.)
But you, my friend, are a gifted writer indeed! I hope the many forum visitors all find time to stop by today for this degree of enlightenment you have provided in the clearest of transmissions. I, for one, shall keep my radio tuned in and turned on!
beesting
(05/06/01; 14:02:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 53158)
Wars and Gold!
Saw the video "Born on the 4th of July" last night ,which is a true story of a disillusioned Viet Nam war hero returning home to face life in a wheel chair. Which in turn prompted some more reading from Congressman Ron Paul's book,"Money Book."
Begin quotes from book:
Page 14:
Although it did not become apparent for decades, the Federal Reserve Act made possible the massive inflation necessary to finance our tragic entrance into WWI. The 1921 depression was one result of this depression.
More Federal Reserve inflation during the 1920s, combined with economic interventionism by both Republic and Democratic administrations, caused and perpetuated the Great Depression of the 1930s.
By that 1913 law, a 40% Gold cover for Federal reserve notes and 35% for federal Reserve deposits were required. The fact that it was not 100%(Gold Backed) showed that the central bankers "planned" more inflation.
If a country inflates under a Gold standard, Gold flows out of the Treasury,hamstringing(limiting spending) the government. Since a Gold standard enables the ""average person"" to restrain the government's attempt to inflate, control the economy,run up deficits, and FIGHT SENSELESS WARS, the central planners had to eliminate this fundamental American freedom to own Gold. This was accomplished with the Gold Reserve Act of 1934, which outlawed private ownership of Gold, prohibited the use of "Gold clause" contracts, and abolished the Gold coin standard. The law created the Gold bullion standard,destined to last only 10 years.
Since 1933 the dollar has lost more than 93% of its value in terms of Gold.
The politicians readily accepted the inflationist arguments of the intellectuals, since it was in the interest of the power-hungry politicians to ""destroy"" the system that gave the people, ""not the politicians"",POWER OVER THE MONETARY SYSTEM. As a result, control was handed over to the bankers and bureaucrats, as well as the politicians themselves.....etc. etc.
"There is no subtler nor surer means of overturning the existing basis of society than to debouch the currency,"Keynes had written in 1919. "The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and does it in a manner which not ONE MAN IN A MILLION is able to diagnose."
And this from page 32:
"People fight the Gold standard", said Ludwig von Misis,"because they want to substitute national autarky for free trade,WAR for PEACE, totalitarian government omnipotence for liberty."
""It is no coincidence that the 19th Century,(1800s) a time of Gold coin standard for the most part, was an ERA of PEACE. Nor is it coincidence that the 20th Contury combines wars with ""paper money"".
And this from page 30:
Government's only legitimate reason for existence is to protect innocent life and property from aggression, foreign or domestic. When it deliberately destroys the money, government is acting perversely, by harming innocent life and property. Short of intentional war, inflation is the most immoral act political leaders can commit. The legalized counterfeiting which is inflation must be ended--now! etc. etc.
In 1974 we reversed the unconstitutional 1934 law that barred private ownership of Gold. In 1977, Gold clause contracts were legalized. In 1979, a bill to repeal the Treasury's power to seize privately held Gold was passed....etc. etc. End of Ron Paul Quotes.( Capital letters and italics added for emphasis only).
Comments:
Now we begin to understand one of the real reasons governments want and perpetuate "paper money"! TO FINANCE WAR MACHINES!!!!! During the Viet Nam Era I asked myself this question:
Which would I rather have; A life of prosperity for myself and some of the friends I grew up with or be a little poorer and see the friends,"lost forever in Nam", home and trying to lead a normal life? Please ask yourself how would you answer this question?
Thanks for Reading....beesting.
megatron
(05/06/01; 13:57:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 53157)
Big Buyer
The thought of riding the public transit system to your court case every day in front of the media after you've been bankrupted would not make me eager to step up to the plate. I'm of course taking about the Hunt Bros.Micheal Milken,etc. Every 'club' has it's rules/conventions and the Hunt's had to be smacked down in public to get the point across. When you are dealing with a world domineering force are you going to jar them into killing you? They can drop an atomic bomb on someone and still sleep, why would they not have an open threat against insiders who would attempt large gold purchases? Remember the 'accidental' bombing of the Chinese embassy? Obviously from my point of view, Buffet was no threat to anybody, and they merely worked around his little shenanigans. I sure if you live in Sicily
there are no street signs saying "Don't Move in on the Mafias turf, Thank You."
Mr Gresham
(05/06/01; 13:29:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 53156)
Usul
So Big Buyer is too big to maneuver his wealth without making too big a splash in the very small gold pond? Again, one of our benefits of being small.
But they must be able to "make inquiries" amongst the various markets worldwide -- Dubai? Shanghai? etc. We would hear nothing about it, of course.
The belief in the Greensput, and the ability of THEIR organization to come through a crisis owning a bigger market share, probably helps keep them fully invested in their ongoing "businesses".
Also, their belief in the continuity of markets, and the ability to jump on a trending gold price after psychology reverses. The ridicule of "gold bugs", and a host of other half-examined impediments to such a shift...
But that was the question I asked Another, about the stratification of the gold market, and "is there no middle?" , for the 10-millionaire who wants a million in physical.
Is there a special branch officer at the Treasury who will finally take the determined would-be "bullionaire" on a personal tour of the Fed NY basement, and show him "his" shelf full of bars?
It's just so hard for me to imagine these "captains of industry" taking NO for an answer, after making the determination to own gold in quantity. Are they really so few -- or so aware of the need to keep quiet in their quest?
That's what it comes down to: CBs, us little loudmouth wisecrackers, and big guys keeping vew-wy vew-wy quiet.
USAGOLD
(05/06/01; 13:22:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 53155)
ET. . . Thanks (!) and a Question for all??
Thanks for the kind words. Let me put it this, ET: I would not want to be a wealthy citizen of either the United States or the European Union without a significant gold holding under present circumstances. Does that adequately express, my level of faith in the respective governments of the political state's in question? I do not profess what is developing as heaven on earth, like the socialists would have you believe, but simply as what is developing. If that reflects a fatalistic view of modern society then so be it. Politics is the art of the possible. Finance is the art of the probable.
Fairways and greens, my friend. The sun came out today but the course is wet and unplayable. I did some gardening early. Thinking about The Legend of Bagger Vance while I did it. Trying to see "the field."
All: Since this is Sunday, and we've had a couple religious posts, here's a question for you: Who was it that characterized socialism as "the promise of the serpent?"
ET
(05/06/01; 13:17:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 53154)
lamprey, Cavan Man
Hey guys - thanks for the comments. I seem to be the only guy left that believes sound money will return. Everybody seems to be under the impression that government-imposed fiat currency systems are the best that can be expected in today's world. I think that when the credit bust starts to accelerate, some sort of standard will emerge. This has happened in every society where the fiat money has gone bad. I surely don't think this case will be any different, however, it is uncertain at this time what might emerge. I'm betting gold and silver pulls it out in the bottom of the ninth. <g>
ET
(05/06/01; 13:05:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 53153)
Belgian
Hey Belgian - thanks for the reply. I don't have an answer to your question. ANOTHER first came on the scene at about the time this trading in London was exposed. If I understand his explanation correctly, he is claiming that a certain amount of gold is flowing in one direction while oil is flowing in the other. As to the exact methodology, I haven't spent any time attempting to learn if it is publicly known. My comments were more along the lines of gold is freely traded in some circumstances by entities that know it is the real money.
Usul
(05/06/01; 13:04:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 53152)
Big buyer
Why doesn't Big Buyer rush into gold? I believe that such entities are inevitably diversified into a number of different investment vehicles- most of which would suffer if a rush into gold were to develop and grow- you would see hedged mines and gold shorts going to the wall; there would be dislocations in currency exchange rates that would precipitate a number of LTCMs; in the ensuing financial crisis there would be defaults in the banking system that could potentially cascade following the precedent of Herstatt. In the meantime, Big Buyer takes a bath in their conventional investments. Therefore, no Big Buyer, through self-interest, will rush into gold until forced to by overwhelming circumstances. Well, that's my humble opinion anyway.
ET
(05/06/01; 12:53:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 53151)
MK
Hey MK - thanks for a most thorough explanation. I frankly wish you would spend more time here than less. Your insights are most needed.
MK, I've followed this saga since the days at Kitco. I'm certainly in agreement that competition is needed in currencies as well as anything else. I believe I understand what these guys have been saying and up to a point I agree with all they have said. My problem with the entire scheme is that it is not competitive. If I understand all of you correctly, the currencies would be somewhat competitive with each other but it appears to me that gold is coming in a poor third. Since there does not appear to be any particular method to properly value gold, I question the value of hoarding it as wealth within this agreed upon scheme. That is the part of this idea I have attempted to address. I'm sure you and all the others advocating (I'm unsure if this is the correct term), this idea believe it the best that can be accomplished at this time. I don't necessarily agree with that as I do believe the marketplace will force upon society a sounder standard, if not a sound standard. I guess that is just a matter of opinion and we can leave it at that. Hopefully, we'll all live long enough to find out!
Once again, thanks for jumping in. Don't be a Stranger on your own forum! I'm off to Chicago for a week and taking my clubs. Best regards!
Mr Gresham
(05/06/01; 12:40:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 53150)
Up On The Roof -- (?)
http://www.k12.hi.us/~lehua/classrooms1999_00/a24/pc_project/business/past/pc_tavern/pc_tavern.htm
Bonsai! (?)
Black Blade
(05/06/01; 12:11:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 53149)
RE: JMB #53138
Personally I prefer "Beer - The Breakfast of Champions."
Seriously though, the aluminum industry in the NW is on hold for the next 2 years as Kaiser and others have sold their energy contracts at a profit and now are taking up production in Trinidad(?) maybe Aruba(?) where NG is plentiful. Cheers!
- Black Blade
SHIFTY
(05/06/01; 12:10:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 53148)
JMB
A drywasher is a devise that processes dry dirt. It classifies out the larger rocks and lets the fine dry dirt flow down over riffles. Puffs of air from below the riffles blow off the lighter material and concentrates the heavy stuff .
Black sand and gold stay in and the worthless dirt is blown away. You then pan your concentrates (heavy stuff) and collect your gold.
:-)
$hifty
Mr Gresham
(05/06/01; 12:09:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 53147)
ge
(Michael, that was a keeper!)
ge:
I think you need a 3-dimensional envelope to do that figuring on. I've always been suspicious of those "flat" extrapolations of either current money supply or GDP vs the number of gold ounces available.
The fact is (stuff from this week's Doug Noland to follow, hopefully) that you neither want to monetise the entire GDP, nor does all other currency disappear even if gold returns to prominence as the counterweight to excessive paper printing. (But what gold doesn't take over from currency, it may get as a wealth holding, so the calculations can vary wildly, so the simple calc may work in the end <-- (my "hey-wadduIknow?" disclaimer))
It's more a multi-variable question of what "market share" among moneys will gold return to? Yes, it may hit the $30,000 mark, but that will likely be after an inflationary printing of many more buckaroos than we even have now.
In current item-for-item purchasing power terms, if we saw a panic spike to (today's equivalent) $30k, that would IMO be time to lighten up. As a wealth holding, though, the first default amongst the $2 trillion in uninsured money market funds could start $2000 moseying on over toward each of those 1 billion ounces pretty quickly. So several factors may simultaneously contribute a stream of dollars toward hard assets.
Also, I've never completely understood FOA's description of the Europeans' willingness to let their dollar holdings be largely written off, but I'm appreciating better now their reasons for doing everything in the transition VERY GRADUALLY. (And not "crashing the system")
Belgian
(05/06/01; 12:08:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 53146)
Leigh and " THE QUESTION "
Yes, why aren't there any other physical gold-accumulators, who know what FOA/ANOTHER are supposing/speculating/ ????
If the gold for oil game is "THAT" enormous...what is witholding Big Buyers from accelerating the proces ?
Dear FOA/ANOTHER...that is my one and only question . Thanks
Black Blade
(05/06/01; 12:03:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 53145)
Lamprey_65 post #53133 - About Miningweb
http://www.mips1.net/mwir.nsf/Current/85256A020078CC3185256A0300031334?OpenDocument
You're right of course. "Follow the money." The following is a statement from moneyweb in the section "About miningweb."
Snippit:
theMiningweb.com. launched in January 2000, represents the first foray into international internet publishing for Moneyweb, the flagship website of Moneyweb Holdings. Moneyweb is an internet-focused publisher listed on the Johannesburg Stock Exchange [JSE:MNY]. The biggest minority stake in Moneyweb is held by Taita Holdings, a technology-focused investment company which plays an active role in the development of companies in which it invests. Taita is a joint venture between its chief executive, formerly SA's leading IT sector investment analyst Dr Duarte da Silva; and the JSE-listed duo of Black-owned African Harvest and financial services group Peregrine Holdings.
Yet they do claim to be unbiased and independent in their statement. Hmmm… There does not seem to be much of a dissenting opinion offered when controversial issues are presented. There does seem to be a big push on articles that try to put a good light on the practice of forward sales of gold. That probably should not be surprising as they are a SA investment publication and since overly forward sold AngloGold is the 800 lb. Gorilla in the SA mining industry it should not be surprising that they don't want to "rock the boat." Perhaps it is much the same reason why analysts for investment firms won't ever issue a "sell" recommendation for miserable companies - they hope to retain business or acquire future business dealings. At least that's my take on it.
- Black Blade
tedw
(05/06/01; 12:00:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 53144)
Anti-Christ
http://www.usagold.com
I wouldnt bring up the subject but someone else already has.
Before his death, the late Father Malachi Martin did an interview with Art Bell and gave his description of the anti-Christ, also prophecying that most of us would see the anti-Christ in our lifetimes. The fact that Malachi was an official exorcist with the Church lends credibility to his statement.
I realize that this is not really the forum for this but am only responding to HBM post. If anyone wants more information on this subject e-mail me at tedw@internetcds.com.
This may be related to some of the subjects discussed here as Europe is drifitng toward the establishment of a European Super State (with its own currency;the Euro). Who will be the head of this European Super State?
JMB
(05/06/01; 11:54:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 53143)
SHIFTY
All right, I'll bite.
What is a "drywasher"?
auspec
(05/06/01; 11:41:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 53142)
Belgian/Gold TA
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_01/droke050701pv.html
Clif Droke in regards to what he sees as a "time wedge":
"This strongly confirms our analysis of the past several months that the Spring of 2001 would witness a historic bottom in the 21-year bear market for gold."
CD apparently sees something in the gold an Durban Deep charts that is quite encouraging. Does this make sense to you, Belgian, from a TA view? "Time Wedge"??
Come quickly, gold bull market! And Amen to HBM!
auspecfully
ge
(05/06/01; 11:39:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 53141)
Back of the Envelepe Calculations
Having decided to return to the classical gold standard, we want to estimate the equilibrium price. Since we shall avoid the tricky gold-exchange standard where one (USD) or two (USD & Pound) paper IOU's have a key position, equate the world GDP ( USD30 trillions) to CB gold stock (1 billion ounces). Presto! The equilibrium gold price is $30,000! What a tangled web is this?
SHIFTY
(05/06/01; 11:29:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 53140)
JMB
I spent most of the time in Arizona looking for old Dodge Power Wagons. Only spent three days looking for gold. Had no luck metal detecting. Needed a drywasher. I will not go back to the desert without one.
$hifty
Mr Gresham
(05/06/01; 11:12:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 53139)
Michael
"too large a role here at this esteemed table"
On the contrary, you pop up consistently with "gravitas", a deep analysis revealing deep thinking. As a host most worthy of the name, you enhance your business by willing to make it "more than business" and taking risks by speaking out. You earn more and more respect with each month passing, I believe.
I'm now relishing taking your printed out posting, out into the sunshine, to enjoy reading at breakfast. Life is good, indeed!
JMB
(05/06/01; 11:05:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 53138)
Ahhhhhh...
BLACK BLADE has me convinced that there's going to be a real problem in the aluminum can industry...there ain't gunna be none...so now you have to drink beer out of a bottle?
So who makes glass bottles? Maybe plastic would be cheaper? Can you imagine "The King of Beers" or "The Champaign of Bottled Beer" being dispensed in plastic? Nah
Welcome home SHIFTY, looking forward to your next song. I sure hope those Californians didn't corrupt you.
SHIFTY
(05/06/01; 10:45:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 53137)
Good to be home
It looks like I may never get caught up on the last two weeks.
$hifty
Humble Pie
(05/06/01; 10:27:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 53136)
FOA return to the forum
Now that you have your bag unpacked and got some rest . when are you going to unload on us ,waiting on pins and needles !
USAGOLD
(05/06/01; 09:48:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 53135)
ET et al. . . .On Currency Competition
Quote from ET:
Randy asked me the other day what I thought about the "suffering" that has been caused by the US currency hegemony. Why do you think he would ask this? My guess is that he believes great suffering has come to pass and I certainly agree with him. However, he then goes on to say we should adopt another version of the same thing, apparently so the suffering can be spread around a bit.
--------------
I have spent more than a small amount of time analyzing and interpreting the Another/FOA message, and I think you have reduced their message to a very narrow interpretation that falls short of of the mark. The statement above is indicative. As a result, I thought I should comment on the subject because I think you've missed a great deal of their message. I hope to add to your thinking as well as to others who may have fallen into the same misreading of their analysis. The danger in this sort of thing as always is that I may not be saying things with which FOA and Another agree, but I think my recapitulation accurate and if I'm missing something, I hope the other participants will fill in the gaps. I will not comment beyond this on this subject, because, as always, I am sensitive to playing too large a role here at this esteemed table. Those who are bored with this sort of thing, I beg your indulgence. Those who revel in it, I think you will find much to chew on. . . .per below.
Onward. . . . .
You and Randy are correct in pointing to dollar hegemony as a source of much suffering in the world -- intended or not. In fact President Bush has expressed the same reservations, more or less in a backhanded way, in his criticisms of the IMF during the campaign. So none of us are alone on those concerns. I think however that you need to expand your understanding of what Another/FOA are trying to convey, because it is not a simple advocacy of the euro over the dollar -- but a much deeper and important advocacy of competition in currencies, much as we have competition in other realms within the economy. This lack of competition is the problem with dollar hegemony and makes it possible for New York based multi-nationals and international banks to make bad (non-repayable) loans in the third world and then turn around and impose stringent conditions through the IMF that strap the local economy and eventually send the people into the streets -- ala Indonesia a year ago -- agitating for "economic" justice. (And of course that's just one example of the excesses of a monolithic reserve currency) Years ago, such injustices would have been fertile ground for Communist agitators, but now with the fall of the Soviet Union perhaps the multi-national crowd has been unjustifiably emboldened. In the long run, competition for this market from Europe, with an agenda of its own, would be good for the dollar and the international economy as well as the U.S. and Europe, and therein lies the real thrust of the FOA/Another analysis.
Let me take this a bit deeper:
I do not believe that Another/FOA are advocating a fiat euro which would "replace" in toto the dollar. Instead they advocate the euro, dollar and gold should "compete" for the hearts and minds of ordinary people (in terms of the currency they employ to store wealth), important financiers (as a hedging methodology), and, yes, central banks and nation states (as a reserve asset). In the case of nation states, the competition would inherently create circumstances leading to each doing what is necessary to make their "reserve" better than the other "reserves."
Under such a regime, the importance of gold ownership, for nation states, as well as individuals, would not be diminished because any nation state is capable of dalliance along the road to currency inflation making it necessary for the other participants to "hedge" their holdings. It is in fact a novel concept built closer to the von Hayek foundation of competing currencies -- including gold -- than possibly your own reliance on a gold standard as the ultimate and only magic dart that will find the target's center.
In fact there is a danger there that you might have overlooked. Take for instance the widely disseminated Kemp/Polyconomics New Bretton Woods proposal of a gold standard being bandied about in the conservative press. That proposal pegs the price of gold at $300. A major problem quickly surfaces: Whatever's left of the U.S. gold supply would disappear completely within six months of posting the $300 price -- the work of Continental Europe begun in the 1960s/1970s will have been fully rendered. The danger of course is the gold standard you would like to see is not remotely connected to the gold standard others, more politically inclined would like to see, so you always end up with this warmed-over version of a gold standard that gets right back where we started.
As a matter of fact, I see the FOA/Another currency concept as closer to the tenets of libertarianism (and Jefferson) than a gold standard because of the exchange restrictions which inevitably follow. In other words, we would very well be right back in 1971 with the United States once again facing the prospect of shipping its gold reserve to Japan and Europe in defense of the over-produced dollar. (Unless of course, the price were set at something like $3000 to $5000 per ounce -- then you might have some equilibrium.) Idealistically the gold advocate would most certainly would like to see a gold exchange standard -- but at what price and what would be the economic consequences if it were to be set where it should be? Polyconomics offers up this arbitrary $300 price because it wouldn't break the current international system, but when it comes to real political/economic policy ideals and practical reality often clash. It's always nice to hear someone like Jack Kemp speak glowingly of gold, but before we roll over and cast adoring glances at the politician perhaps we should better understand what the politician is actually stumping for, and in the Kemp/Polyconomics case it is more currency hegemony under the guise of a free international gold standard, a hegemony paid for by the American people in the form of its gold reserve.
Currency hegemony is precisely the opposite of competition -- it is, in fact, the imposition of a currency, even gold (at a stated currency price, of course), on the population. As such the euro is important in that it challenges that hegemony, and does so with the key concept of utilizing gold as a "currency without a country" to act as a reserve for interventions if required -- a breakthrough. Re-read Mundell on this. You and I and the rest of this forum could be talking about the need for a gold standard now, tomorrow, the day after that and for all the days remaining in both our lives, and I do not believe we will be any closer to its imposition then than we are now -- thanks to the wayward and half-baked thinking on the part of some of the very gold "advocates" who are supposed to understand economic history well enough to anticipate some of the consequences. In other words, the gold standard probably isn't going to happen. In the meanwhile, practically speaking, the best option is for all of us, including the various nation states to own gold as a talisman against our own worst instincts.
If Randy is concerned about hegemony and its effect on various populations, I don't think it's because he would like to replace that same hegemonic error with another. I think he agrees with FOA/Another that competition paves the road to a better international monetary system. I do believe, as FOA/Another do, that with the euro we are talking about the currency of the future here, and I believe that the dollar will eventually be modeled after the euro. Not only that, I believe we are talking about, not just the currency of the future, but the international monetary system of the future -- for what its worth. Sometimes the world heads off in a direction even if we don't want it to.
Once again I'll reiterate what PH hinted at in his post: For most investors the world over, the ownership of gold is a pragmatic undertaking, and what FOA/Another are advocating is a practical, hands-on solution for the average investor -- personal gold ownership. I think Randy agrees with this position, as do I. I can envision private gold ownership as a necessity even under a gold standard -- because there is little doubt in my mind that if the government were to undertake a gold standard even under the best intentions, with Lewellyn Rockwell serving as Chairman of the Fed, it eventually would botch the whole scheme -- politics being what it is. (By the way, I can't imagine a currency regime at this late date that would allow only the circulation of specie. Therefore, you will always have various derivatives in circulation along with the government largesse, currency printing, tinkering with the gold price which threatens the value of the paper. Gresham rules.)
In the end, he who owns the gold, makes the rules. And it is the personal ownership of it that will carry the day on a practical level while governments will do, well ...... governments will do what governments do.
P.S. Watched "Trillion Dollar Bet" on Nova last night -- the story behind LTCM. Fascinating. Peter Fischer is interviewed and blames the LTCM mess on "hubris" -- the enchantment with the perfect mathematical model, that left out one thing -- the absolute unpredictability of human nature. The New York Fed structured the rescue of LTCM and let Sholes, Merton, Merriwether and company off the hook with a bailout. Merriwether has started another fund similar to LTCM -- believe it or not. All of which proves if you are big enough, and the judgment error large enough, the paper money crowd will always ride to the rescue if it can, shower you with money and blessings, drop the load on the public and then turn the other way when you offer to go back and do the very same thing all over again. May we all be showered with financial rewards for our mistakes. I will order the program from PBS and watch it again. I recommend it to all.
Also reading Deaver's look behind the scenes during the Reagan years. A quick, easy read that tells what President Reagan was really like. The man shunned polling and went completely with his innate political instincts (and he was nearly always right), refused to speak under a spotlight so he could see the faces of the people he was addressing and never took his suit or sport coat off in the Oval Office in deference to the institution of the presidency (even in the depths of the Washington summer doldrums) -- a far cry from what the last president managed to accomplish in that same office.
Leigh
(05/06/01; 08:37:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 53134)
Hill Billy Mitchell
http://www.phc.edu
Hill Billy, thank you for your inspiring message this morning! I've been interested in this subject since childhood, and I guess that's why I gravitate toward gold. You eloquently (as always) summed up a great deal of astonishing information into a few easy-to-read paragraphs.
One question keeps bothering me, and I keep asking it here because it never gets answered to my satisfaction. If gold and silver are to be the stores of wealth in this future transfer of power, why is it that more people (who you'd think would be in the know) aren't accumulating it? There are lots of people involved in this New World Order business, many of whom are quite rich, and if all of them bought gold, the COMEX would empty out in an hour!
Hill Billy, I know you're an admirer of Mr. Ashcroft, and you might be interested in reading about a dinner he'll be at next week. These PHC events are really fun - you meet the most amazing people there. Wish you and Mrs. HBM lived closer by so you could attend as our guests.
lamprey_65
(05/06/01; 07:23:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 53133)
Black Blade
It seems to me that Mining Web is biased toward big, hedged mines.
Some research on their ownership/financial backing might be in order.
The Invisible Hand
(05/06/01; 06:27:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 53132)
The message is getting out!
http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=22631
The May edition of WorldNet magazine, WND's monthly print publication, deals with some red-hot issues dealt with in May's WorldNet, two of which are:
- Why the U.S. abandoned the gold standard;
- Is the gold market being manipulated today?
Hill Billy Mitchell
(05/06/01; 06:10:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 53131)
Thoughts on the Antichrist, and The day of the Lord
Lady Leigh, the first time I read this, "By thy wisdom…thou hast gotten GOLD and SILVER into thy treasures", a light came on for me. The Bible passage was written a few thousand years ago. A. W. Pink wrote his commentary back in 1923. All pointed to a one world government with a one world ruler who would accomplish total control of the world economy and implement his identifying mark to control the economic decisions of every person on earth. Even those who give no credence to our Bible generally would agree that we are rapidly approaching Global Union, cashless economic activity, and total control of the world's inhabitants via computer driven monitoring of all movement on the earth. As a result of the direction earthlings are heading, many now consider as inevitable what once seemed to be far-fetched. What seemed impossible now seems probable in the not too distant future. No ID #, no healthcare. No ID #, no driving privileges, no working privileges, no property ownership privileges, no pursuit of happiness allowed.
The conspiracy that so many speculate about does exist. The conspiracy is not of human origin. The conspiracy is supernatural (hence it moves forward across generational boundaries). It is a satanic conspiracy, a conspiracy to rule the world and to require all to worship, not Almighty God, but Satan, himself. This total government cannot take the reigns of power without economic control. Control of the world money supply is imperative. There will be ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, and a single ONE WORLD DICTATOR, who will eventually require all to worship him. He will be wise enough to know that economic wealth resides in GOLD and SILVER. Transactions may be of the electronic sort, but the muscle behind the transactions will be his substantial control of the world's supply of physical GOLD and SILVER. I would hesitate to give SILVER any degree of importance save for the simple fact that God says that it will. It is impossible for God to lie therefore up until he renders GOLD and SILVER to be unable to deliver, you can bank on it (pun intended), GOLD and SILVER will deliver.
The Introduction of the Euro is striking enough, but the 20% backing requirement in gold ominous. There is a man, a Beast, behind the scenes, who will step forward at the opportune moment and assume control of the European Union, a Beast, not unlike Hitler, though is mouth will be smoother than oil at the very first and if it were possible he would deceive even the very elect. Of course the Almighty gives assurance that that will not be possible. Now this Beast will have in his economic arsenal the most powerful two weapons ever known to the world, GOLD and SILVER. He will have gotten "into his treasures GOLD and SILVER". Tree in the Forest @ # 52942 offers this hypothetical – "What would really be interesting is if the ECB really doesn't have the gold they claim to have backing the Euro." The answer to this hypothetical - the ECB really does have the gold to back the Euro, and the "Man of Sin", is waiting in the wings for his grand moment to step forward. We have the word of God on this very point.
We have from Biblical prophesy the simple guarantee that neither gold nor silver will lose their luster, that neither will become a relic of the past and that real wealth and financial power resides in GOLD and SILVER until the "Great and Notable DAY OF THE LORD", "THE DAY OF THE LORD’S WRATH", the time when the Lord will consume the Beast with the Spirit of His mouth.
What we have here is an assurance that up until "THAT DAY" GOLD and SILVER will have delivering power, wealth storing power, economic power and that it would be unwise to fall for the trap which the controlled media is laying, that "Gold has become a commodity only", that "it is neither money, nor a store of wealth".
We take the position that the day that "they who are the children of wrath" will cast their GOLD and SILVER into the streets and that those who "are not the children of wrath" will have been translated from this earth is the very day that scripture refers to as "THE DAY OF THE LORD’S WRATH. It is those who are left behind who will not be able to deliver themselves with GOLD and SILVER. This translation of God's saints will no doubt occur just prior to the commencement of the "DAY OF THE LORD’S WRATH" and for this reason we can be assured that it is more than acceptable for those who claim Christ as God and Savior to accumulate GOLD and SILVER up until the very end of the age. This answers the speculation by Horatio @ # 52920 as to what will occur at the second coming of the Savior.
Buena Fe @ # 52897 offered an imprecatory prayer in this regard "MAYDAY...MAYDAY...MAYDAY...come to my help Lord! The rich have defrauded the laborer of his pay! What the rich call WEALTH (US$) is just wood fiber...not REAL WEALTH-GOLD! Burn what they consider to be WEALTH...and raise up your standard - GOLD...as a testament to your promises to hear our cries…" Then Buena Fe in perfect context quotes James 5:1-8 "Go to now, you rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. Your riches are corrupted and your garments are motheaten. Your GOLD and SILVER is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh, as it was fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for THE LAST DAYS. Behold the hired labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord saboath. Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and have been wonton. Ye have nourished your hearts, as in THE DAY OF SLAUGHTER. Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you. Be patient therefore, brethren, unto THE COMING OF THE LORD. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and the latter rain.
This of course leads us back to previously discussed passages, Ezekiel 7:19 and Zephaniah 1:18. The first passage reads, "They shall cast their SILVER in the streets, and their GOLD shall be removed: their SILVER and their GOLD shall not be able to DELIVER them in the DAY OF THE WRATH OF THE LORD: they shall not satisfy their souls, neither fill their bowels: because it is a stumblingblock of their iniquity. The second passage reads, "Neither their SILVER nor their GOLD will be able to deliver them in the DAY OF THE LORD’S WRATH; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of His jealously: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land."
Come quickly, Lord Jesus. We gladly leave our modest accumulations behind.
HBM
Hill Billy Mitchell
(05/06/01; 06:07:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 53130)
A.W. Pink and the Antichrist
The following is taken from the Book: "The Antichrist", by Arthur W. Pink. The book was originally published in 1923 by "Bible Truth Depot and was republished in 1988 by Kregel Publications. The excerpt is from pages 148 and 149 of the Kregel publication:
Excerpt begins -------------------------------------------------------------------
3. ANTICHRIST IN EZEKIEL
We shall notice here but two passages in this prophet. First, in 21:25-27—"And thou, profane wicked Prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end, Thus saith the Lord God; Remove the diadem, and take of the crown; this shall not be the same; exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high. I will overturn, overturn, overturn it; and it shall be no more, until He come whose right it is; and I will give it Him".
So far as we are aware, all pre-millennial students regard this passage as a description of the Antichrist. It pictures him as Satan's parody of the Son of Man seated upon "the throne of His glory". It sets him forth as the priest-king. Just as in the Millennium the Lord Jesus will "be a Priest upon His throne" (Zechariah 6:13), so will the Antichrist combine in his person the headships of both the civil and religious realms. He will be what the popes have long aspired to be—head of the World-State, and head of the World-Church.
"And thou, O deadly wounded Wicked One, the Prince of Israel, whose day is come, in the time of the iniquity of the end; thus saith the Lord: remove the mitre, and take off the crown" (R. V.). This is clearly Israel's last king, ere the King of kings and Lord of lords returns to the earth. He is here termed "the Prince of Israel" as the true Christ is denominated "Messiah the Prince" In Daniel 9:25. The description "O deadly wounded Wicked One" looks forward to Revelation 13:12, where we read, "The first Beast whose deadly wound was healed"! "Remove the Mitre and take off the crown," point to his assumption of both priestly and kingly honors. The Hebrew word for "mitre" here is in every other passage used of the head-dress of Israel's high priest! Finally, the statement that his "day is come…in the time of the iniquity of the end" establishes beyond doubt, the identity of this person.
In the opening verses of Ezekiel 28 we have a striking view of the Man of Sin under the title of "the Prince of Tyre", just as what is said of "the King of Tyre" in the second half of the chapter is an esoteric allusion to Satan. First we are told his "heart is lifted up" (v. 2), which is precisely what is said to his father, the Devil, in v. 17. Second, he makes the boast "I am God" and "I sit in the seat of God" (v. 2), which is parallel with 2 Thessalonians 2:4. Third, it is here said of him, "Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee" (v. 3), which intimates he will be endowed with superhuman wisdom by that one of whom the same chapter declares, "Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom" (v. 12). Fourth, it is said of him, "By thy wisdom and by thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten GOLD and SILVER into thy treasures" (v. 4).
Excerpt ends --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Very respectfully submitted,
HBM
Hill Billy Mitchell
(05/06/01; 06:05:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 53129)
A. W. Pink – especially for Lady Leigh
A. W. Pink – especially for Lady Leigh
A few words before the post that follows:
Mr. Pink, now deceased, was a remarkable Bible teacher whose teachings and writings have stood the test of time. What I am about to post was published in 1923. One can gain insight from A. W. Pink without agreeing with every single point that he makes. He might have a strong statement about the Papacy without having any animosity whatsoever against individuals who are of Catholic persuasion. No offence is intended and none should be taken. I would venture that at least half of the forum participants and lurkers and CPM customers have some interest in the emotional, moral and spiritual motives concerning the GOLD and SILVER question . It is for this reason that I post A. W. Pink.
Very respectfully,
HBM
Hill Billy Mitchell
(05/06/01; 05:36:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 53128)
Question for Another
Your purpose is to enlighten, no? When you refer to "Big Trader", to whom do you refer?
Very respectfully,
HBM
Black Blade
(05/06/01; 04:32:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 53127)
Gold hedging report flies in face of conventional wisdom
http://m1.mny.co.za/MGGold.nsf/Current/4225685F0043D1B242256A440033A6CB?OpenDocument
Snippit:
The World Gold Council (WGC) can't be particularly pleased with the findings of the report it commissioned from the London Business School (LBS) on the impact of derivatives on the gold market. For the study flies in the face of perceived wisdom and shows that hedging had only a marginal impact on the dollar gold price – "a few per cent," in the words of Professor Anthony Neuberger, who led the LBS team.
Black Blade: The Hedging debate rages on. Yet another article on gold hedging. Miningweb seems to be Hell Bent on stating a case for gold hedging.
Black Blade
(05/06/01; 03:57:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 53126)
Greenspan Hopes U.S. Spends Its Way Out
http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/010505/business_stocks_week_dc_9.html
Snippit:
NEW YORK (Reuters) - If Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan is counting on the consumer to bail out the ailing American economy, his chances of success would appear slim to none. The betting in some quarters is the Fed may not be able to keep the Great American Spending Machine fired up forever because the jobs market is scaring a lot of people. The risk is that job insecurity could prompt consumers to pull back on spending, which would knock out the last peg that has so far held up the economy.
Black Blade: I agree. In spite of the near miraculous turnaround in the stock market on Friday - amazing what a well placed spin can accomplish. We are in a Recession and it would be obvious if the BLS data were not manipulated with various dubious statistical filters. Many "professional" investors were caught flat-footed on Friday when the unemployment data came out. Then the spin that the Fed would cut rates again and that all would be well. Another surprise in unemployment numbers or declining consumer confidence numbers could scuttle the Fed's best laid plans. Many may soon run for the cover and protection that gold can provide.
Black Blade
(05/06/01; 03:40:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 53125)
The Credit Bubble Bulletin
http://www.prudentbear.com/credit.htm
Check out these ominous charts. It looks very ugly. Especially note the savings graph.
Black Blade
(05/06/01; 03:34:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 53124)
Signs point to $3 gasoline
http://www.msnbc.com/news/568974.asp
Snippit:
PLATTS OILGRAM NEWS reported that some oil companies have started stocking up on the numeral 3 to use in signs at their gas stations. Specifically, they are buying a "3 point," or the larger font used to denote three dollars, followed by a decimal, says Platts.
Black Blade: $3.00/gallon gas in the cards? Higher fuel costs will also fuel inflation - got a gold lifeboat?
Black Blade
(05/06/01; 03:17:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 53123)
ANWR Petroleum and Environmentalist Racism
There has been a lot of opposition to oil drilling in the Artic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR) by some environmentalists groups such as Club Sierra, some Alaskan Indians, and political opponents of George Bush. One argument is that drilling would destroy the beauty, value and critical habitats for caribou, polar bear, wolves and birds. Another argument is that production of oil from ANWR would yield only a 6 month supply of oil for the lower 48 states. These are the same arguments that were brought up in opposition to Prudhoe Bay oil drilling, production and the Alaskan oil pipeline. Prudhoe Bay has been in production for over 33 years and has provided as much as 10% of the US oil production. The argument is a feeble attempt to mislead the average US citizen. The facts are we really don't know how much oil exists on the North Slope.
There has been only one exploratory well drilled in ANWR in the 1960's by Chevron. Another lie put forth by the "Green" community is that local people will be hurt. In fact the Inupiat who live in villages stretching along Alaska's North Slope from Barrow eastward to Canada's border, support President George W. Bush's plan to open up the ANWR to drilling to reduce dependence on foreign oil. The refuge's residents say they need the money they could raise from lease sales for education funding and feel confident of overseeing low-impact drilling by the industry in an area their ancestors have roamed for 3000 years. The 33 years of activity at Prudhoe Bay shows the oil activity and wildlife are adapting. In a position paper drafted by leaders of the ANWR residents, they say the most dangerous and insulting view held by outsiders is the notion that our homeland is empty or should be made so.
The Inupiat find the environmentalists claims to be absurd and view them as naïve. The Inupiat are outraged by an anti-ANWR drilling campaign that tries to play to the American self-image of independence by portraying the area as the last wild, unpopulated and pristine frontier in America. There have been outsiders in the area in the recent past. In the 1950's the US military built radar installations in the North Slope (including ANWR) called the Defense Early Warning (DEW Line) radar installation during the Cold War to track Soviet long-range bombers. Over about 50 years the military made quite a mess and incurred the wrath of the indigenous peoples. On the other hand, the Oil and gas industry is held in the highest regard by the Inupiat. Many have benefited with a high standard of living, educational opportunities, and community infrastructure and they owe much of that to revenues and royalties from North Slope oil development. One could conclude that the environmentalist and political activist community are racist and do not wish to see the indigenous peoples aspire to a better life.
A good read on this situation can be found in the Apr 27-May 3 issue of "Upstream" by Dann Rogers who reports that the "Greens are in the Mood for a Fight". He clearly illustrates much of the antagonism between the environmentalist community and the Inupiat. The Prudhoe Bay area has had no ill effect on the populations of wildlife in the North Slope. During winter, caribou can be found resting underneath the Alaskan Pipeline enjoying the warmth as radiant heat passes through the pipeline. In fact wildlife populations have thrived and grown over the last several years. If Prudhoe Bay is an example of the all around benefits that can be expected from petroleum exploration and production in the North Slope, then similar benefits can be expected from exploration and production in ANWR.
- Black Blade
Belgian
(05/06/01; 02:54:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 53122)
Lamprey, ET, Auspec
Lamprey : Yes, Van Eck is a Gold(mine)Holder-trader-Fund.
If memory serves me well, they have a very large holding in Gold Fields.
Insider trading : South African goldmines have always had,very large cross-participations. They are trading each other shares very activily. On the minuscule Brussels stock exchange, we have a long tradition of SA goldminers. And now you are going to be super surprised to hear me saying that Brussels SE is very indicative on the price-setting for the SA-mines. Much more important than the Johannesburg SE. The intra-day goldmine live is copied in NY later in the day, with a multiple volume of course. That's how we can spot if the insiders are moving and how they are moving.
That's how we can have an idea if the public (multi-individuals) are following or not. But it still remains an art and not a science. Presently, the insiders are fully guiding and the public isn't following at all. (FWIW)
ET : I still have a lot of difficulties to "understand" the mechanism of : * I would say an amount of oil is being traded today for an amount of gold, paper prices notwithstanding* . Knowing that Saudi is a BIS-member...
How is all this working ? Can you educate me on this subject, please ?
Auspec : The Golden Triangle...funny association with the drug nirwana, isn't it ? Afghanistan :4.600 tonnes of opium per year (77% world production). And the street value is 5.000 $ per 31,1 gram (ounce). Aloha !
But I must add that my (troubled) intuition tells me that drugs-money isn't finding refuge in gold anymore. The bulk is washed into the (un)real economy. Real estate and business.
Some reflexions on the actual (strong) activism around "Blood Diamonts" : A broad based group of would-be idealists are strongly campaigning to ban all trade in diamonts coming from war-zones, like Angola, Sierra Leone etc. The fact that Anglo American (Oppenheimer) wanted to take De Beers from listing (taking it private) and that the merger with LVMH has been cancelled, means, that there is some strong pressure. A few weeks ago, 152 representatives held a congress on the Blood Diamonts in Brussels.
They want to give all diamonts a "SOCIAL" aspect and image !-? This is very, very strange indeed !
Why the hell are they picking exactly diamonts as the cause for so much evil ? Why is De Beers so eager to cooperate with setting up a sophisticated system for diamont earmarking and tracing (war-diamonts) ?
It seems to me that there is more in this, than just a trend following on the Nike-shoes or Cacao-slavery - boycots? Can a similar movement develop around Gold ? Gold-socialization ? Comments anyone ?
Black Blade
(05/06/01; 02:10:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 53121)
Gas Prices Continue To Surge
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/wews/20010504/lo/393243_1.html
Snippit:
CLEVELAND, Posted 4:49 p.m. EDT May 4, 2001 -- What goes up must come down, but gas prices seem to defy gravity and just keep on going up. NewsChannel5's Adam Shapiro reports that drivers are getting stuck with the bill, and in some cases, so are the clerks who sell you gas.
Black Blade: Gas stations are now going to "pre-pay" for gas as there's a surge in "fill and flee." The high price of gasoline has sparked a surge in drivers who fill their tanks and then speed off without paying. A sign of the times. liquid gold?
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