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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 11/6/2001
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

(Yesterday's Discussion.)

Black Blade (11/6/01; 23:50:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 64841)
Asian Markets Get Ripped!
http://quote.yahoo.com/m2?u
Asian markets are getting ripped tonight. The Nikkei is down -348 and the Hang Seng is down -138. These guys usually play "follow the leader," however, yesterday's run-up in Wall Street does not seem to impress them. Also Japanese banks are sharply down on news of more bad loans. Apparently the news is worse than previously thought. Rumors persist that a couple of Japanese majors are in danger of bankruptcy unless the BOJ and Government step in to save the day.

BR549 (11/6/01; 22:06:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 64840)
Swap puts
http://www.goldensextant.com/commentary18.html#anchor353442

One of the goals of Mr. Howe's trail against the money changers is the definition of the term coined by Wayne Angell at an FOMC meeting in 1991.


SWAP PUTS-"A foreign central bank might receive the right to put a certain amount of its dollar holdings to the United States for gold at a specified price, in exchange for which the United States would receive the right to put an equal amount of its gold to the foreign central bank at the same price. In effect, the foreign central bank would obtain a call or option to buy gold, and the United States an option to sell gold, both at the same fixed price. However, taken in the context of the entire discussion, the swap puts on gold appear to be something different.

Although I am not aware of any instance in which the words "swap put" have been used together as a noun, many exotic derivatives have been created in the over-the-counter market. Accordingly, the term may designate a special instrument designed for the Treasury, the Fed, or the ESF. While the term might in a colloquial sense be used to describe the unwound side of an existing swap, this usage would make a lot more sense if the swap possessed some sort of roll-over provision or, better yet, option not to unwind. In the latter event, exercise of the option would "put" or "stick" the swap to the other party by converting it into a completed sale.

For example, the United States might enter into a swap of gold against U.S. debt securities with a U.S. bullion bank at, say, $350/oz. Rather than take the physical gold out of U.S. reserves, the bank might use it either to hedge gold borrowings from other sources or in a location swap with another large holder. But if the bank had an option under defined conditions to convert the swap into an outright sale of U.S. gold rather than a mere time-limited exchange, one might think of the arrangement a "swap put" or a swap with a put option attached. Like the previous example, this transaction would facilitate gold lending by central banks to bullion banks as well as encourage and support the use of derivatives by bullion banks to suppress gold prices.

However ambiguous their precise nature, certain attributes of Mr. Angell's "swap puts" appear quite clear: (1) they attached to "our gold," meaning the official U.S. gold reserves; (2) they were in 1991 part of an existing and growing program as encompassed in his expression "now becoming the case;" and (3) they must either have been of long maturity or possessed roll-over provisions because otherwise they would not "just sit there." Since his departure from its board of governors, Mr. Angell has stated more than once during appearances on financial TV programs that the Fed has "precise control" over the price of gold. His 1991 comments to the FOMC open a window on just how this control is achieved."


BR-So as part of the trial, provided they can get past the government's and banksters dream team (as opposed to Mr. Howe sitting at his table by himself), maybe this term "swap puts" will finally be defined.

Again, I stress the problem with all derivatives is that they mask the underlying risk associated with them. Central Banks should disclose all of their financial manipulations and their underlying values as part of their disclosure requirements.

The Freedom of Information Act is not valid as far as the Fed is concerned. I wonder why. Never mind, we all know why.

BR549


Mr Gresham (11/6/01; 21:57:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 64839)
Churchill
"Churchill said, "When great
causes are on the move in the world, we
find that we are spirits, not animals, and
that something is going on in space and
time, and beyond space and time, which,
whether we like it or not, spells duty.""

Thanks auspec, Chris, Bill: another of my favorites...

Kind of what Lincoln said about Grant when the Washington buzz complained about his drinking: Find out what brand he's drinking and send a case of it to each of my other generals.

Bill Murphy is someone who has responded to duty's call, and I would say that we here, too, respond daily to the call of duty to further ways that the labors of all may be fairly valued and rewarded, and the savings of a lifetime's labor be protected.


auspec (11/6/01; 20:04:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 64838)
megatron
Did you see #64783 last night?

auspec (11/6/01; 20:01:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 64837)
Early Warning Report Snippet
www.majorproblem.com
It pains me to re-post these snippets from Richard Maybury's Early Warning Report {it will pain me more if he gets me for copyright infringement}.

"Washington and the Kremlin say they have formed ties with the Northern Alliance in Afghan."
"Most importantly, the Northern Alliance is worse than the Taliban. It is the world's top drug cartel, it makes the Colombians look like choir boys."
"The Northern Alliance uses rape, torture, and mass murder. Like the long list of other thugs with whom Washington has had alliances- Saddam Hussein, Fidel castro and Osama bin Laden, among others- once the Northern Alliance gets what it wants, it will turn on us."
"Under the Northern Alliance, Afghanistan produced 70% of the world's heroin, which is derived from opium. The Taliban cut that by 95%. now the opium fields are being replanted."
"The maps you and I look at are drawn in the West by westerners, they are deceiving. There are no real countries in Asia or Africa, except in the sense that each tribe is a seperate country with a seperate agenda. The agenda has nothing to do with liberty, free markets or love of America. Mostly the agenda is about killing as many neighbors as possible."
"This is the real political situation US forces confront as they try to work within the coalition the mainstream media seems to admire so much." END

Comment: Mostly out of breath. Maybury has seen a major conflict coming, along the lines we are headed, for the last 20 years. GREAT reading! Will I be in trouble at "Home" for putting this up? Oh well.

Gold.



megatron (11/6/01; 20:00:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 64836)
Please post info
I have seen vitually nothing here on the case outcome and have been crammed into an editing suite for 3 days producing violent childrens programming ;> What has transpired, in detail. Thanks

auspec (11/06/01; 19:07:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 64835)
To Some Fine Americans!
All have read this, but a re-post is in order:


"* Enough of the cursed cynicism that the
courts are as rigged as the markets, that
there is no fighting the power. We know
some things about market rigging but there
is no evidence that anything in court
today was rigged. We got a day in court if
not quite yet OUR day in court. And for
all its faults this remains a country
where one brave man pleading his own case
can summon the representatives of all the
money in the world and put the bastards
in danger of having to answer for themselves."

"* The lawsuit is an important front in our
struggle for free markets and honest dealing
but it is not the only front, and, win or
lose here, our strategy and plan will be,
in Churchill's words, KBO: Keep buggering
on. Thanks to GATA Chairman Bill Murphy and
Howe and those who have come to their
assistance, we have discovered that the
scheme against gold is only part of a
bigger scheme involving interest rates
and currencies to deprive the financial
markets of any standards of value and to
expropriate the world for the benefit of
certain Wall Street interests and to make
the world the slave of the U.S. dollar.
This deeply shames Americans who
understand it. That is why they will
continue to oppose it as best they can
regardless of what happens in court. It is
an anti-imperialist cause and thus a great
cause. And, as Churchill said, "When great
causes are on the move in the world, we
find that we are spirits, not animals, and
that something is going on in space and
time, and beyond space and time, which,
whether we like it or not, spells duty.""

CHRIS POWELL, Secretary/Treasurer
Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee Inc. END

Comment: Cynicism? Vigilance? Which is it? Which do the courts deserve? You get an independent, honest, and un-owned judge? Congrats, what were your chances at this level? My take on the issue is that the GATA 'Patriots', and I mean that most wholeheartedly, see a much clearer picture of the 'magnitude of the monster' or the 'magnitude of the mess' than they did 1 year ago. The next 6 or 12 months will ratchet up the game to another concentric ring of infestation, imho. Do we not find the system to be contaminated more than previously hoped, on a semi-regular basis? We peel the onion and it makes us all cry for our Republic! I hope that makes me a vigilant patriot, yet still somewhat cynical of the 'system'. GATA does not deserve the cynicism, but the elitists certainly do. GATA merits our FULL support because {I sincerely believe} they are tremendously advancing the inevitable to each of our benefit.
I figure they will at least allow leeway for my expressions because of ongoing support for their efforts. Do some of you, others, in the cheap seats, have that luxury? Sorry, just a plug for GATA contributions.
Churchhill also said "nevah, nevah, nevah, nevah, nevah, give up..........................."

Go Winnie and GO GATA!


Netking (11/06/01; 19:05:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 64834)
Rich / Ag
Great chart in your earlier post and good comments, all the pieces confirm we are in a critical period time wise for the POS, long term W.D.Gann timing also suggests November 2001 as a bottom.

The "we ain't got no more of that stuff" words will come for sure . . . soon. TPTB "could have" had a controlled rise eg to $7.50 and then $9.00 etc etc some time back to flush out a little physical Ag and allow some time(but not much!) for the various mines to come back on stream including the 'Super Mines' . . . but NO they printed paper by the truck load . . . therefore the scene is set . . . there will be a theremonuclear meltdown in the POS.
- Netking


uponroof (11/06/01; 18:44:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 64833)
Infidel Thinking
http://www.indian-express.com/
Pakis Consider Moving Nukes To China

LONDON, NOVEMBER 4: PAKISTAN is under pressure to move all or part of its nuclear weapons to China for safekeeping from fundamentalists and it is apprehensive of pre-emptive strikes on its nuclear sites by America, India or Israel to prevent the weapons falling into fundamentalist hands, media report said today quoting Pakistani sources.

The threat to weapons widely regarded as the Pakistan military's crown jewels has forced Islamabad to consider removing warheads to China, Pakistan's closest strategic ally in the region, the Sunday Times reported.

The prospect that loose warheads might be loaded onto helicopters or moved around a region foaming with fundamentalist turmoil is adding to fears in Washington that the war in Afghanistan might provoke a nuclear crisis.

According to the report, Abdul Sattar, the Pakistani Foreign Minister, insisted last week the arsenal was secure. But Washington officials have expressed mounting alarm that any coup attempt against General Pervez Musharraf, the military President, might put Pakistan's nuclear arsenal at risk.

Pakistani generals were appalled by one authoritative American report last week that an elite Pentagon undercover unit, trained to disarm nuclear weapons, was exploring plans for a mission inside Pakistan. (PTI)
************************************
Lord knows there's Taliban in Pakistan after that Christian Church had 16 executed last week.

So Bush sees the possibility of Pakistan being overthrown as a move to completely destabilize the region, and to potentially gain legitimate nuclear weaponry (in the hands of suicidal maniacs-YIKES!). Now that would really suck. I don't think we'd be able to avoid a nuclear explosion (or two) if that ocurred.

The question then becomes...are there enough virgins to go around?

Are the virgins that terrorists get at the end of a cataclysmic war, with hundreds of thousands of martyrs, as nice as those at the beginning of the war? For that matter, is there 'sloppy seconds' to worry about? I knew some girls who claimed virgin status here on earth, that in reality, could only have been talking about olive oil. Not that it bothered me, but then, I wasn't blowing myself apart for them.
*********************
R Powell- Yo Rich! I happen to know that asphalt is still cheaper than gold.......not by much, but still cheaper. Cobblestones/Belgian Block is another matter. As for streets paved with gold, that's my kind of virgin....9999.9 fine.


R Powell (11/06/01; 18:19:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 64832)
Uponroof
Canada down to 34+ tonnes.
Sorry guy, I needed some driveway pavers.
Rich


R Powell (11/06/01; 18:15:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 64831)
More on silver article
The article I mentioned in 64828 is quite technical but for one section whose reading ought to delight silverbugs everywhere,

"SILVER LINING Today's silver market should be of fundamental interest to investors and traders. The decline in silver mine production, seen in "Wonder where the silver went?" clearly ranks as an important variable in the silver market.
Mine output has declined significantly since 1992, and the polynomial fit is quite tight. We can project from this trend forward on an annual basis and conclude that silver mine production virtually will disappear in 2002-2003.
This massive undersupply of silver highlights the metal as an undervalued commodity. If silver reacts as many other physical commodities- natural gas in 2000 comes to mind- the price response could be strong and swift. Historically, silver markets go through the most volatile upswings during the first six months at the beginning of a cycle of rising prices."

The bio at the end gives James Cormier-Chisholm as the pres and CEO of a consulting firm specializing in financial and energy resourse data mining. I won't give his address as doing so may be infringing on proper forum decorum (construed as advertisement?) but I'll e-mail him as to some more information on his chart showing 40% silver production decline over the last two years. Maybe he'll answer. Sould I also ask him if he happens to know exactly how much silver is left in world storage??
What the hey, I'll ask him for the date when the first industrial order for silver is only partially filled with the rest backordered due to "we ain't got no more of that stuff" in the storehouse.
Rich


sourdough (11/06/01; 17:58:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 64830)
iNTERVENTIONS TO WEAKEN YEN
November 7, 2001
Dow Jones Newswires

Japan Foreign Reserves -2: Interventions To Weaken Yen

(MORE) Dow Jones Newswires 06-11-01

2350GMT

Japan MOF: Jul-Sep Forex Intervention Totaled Y3.211 Tln

(MORE) Dow Jones Newswires 06-11-01

2351GMT

Japan MOF Sold Y495.5B Vs Dlr On Sep 17


(MORE) Dow Jones Newswires 06-11-01

2351GMT

Japan MOF Sold Y377.4B Vs Dlr On Sep 19


(MORE) DOW JONES NEWS 11-06-01

06:51 PM

Japan MOF Sold Y1.287T Vs Dlr On Sep 21


(MORE) Dow Jones Newswires 06-11-01

2352GMT

Japan MOF Sold Y117.2B Vs Dlr On Sep 24


(MORE) Dow Jones Newswires 06-11-01

2352GMT

Japan MOF Sold Y21.5B Vs Euro On Sep 24


(MORE) DOW JONES NEWS 11-06-01

06:52 PM

Japan MOF Sold Y94.3B Vs Dlr On Sep 26


(MORE) Dow Jones Newswires 06-11-01

2353GMT

Japan MOF Sold Y21.8B Vs Euro On Sep 26


(MORE) Dow Jones Newswires 06-11-01

2353GMT

Japan MOF Sold Y487.1B Vs Dlr On Sep 27


(MORE) Dow Jones Newswires 06-11-01

2353GMT

Japan MOF Sold Y21.9B Vs Euro On Sep 27


(MORE) Dow Jones Newswires 06-11-01

2353GMT

Japan MOF Sold Y286.6B Vs Dlr On Sep 28


(MORE) Dow Jones Newswires 06-11-01

2354GMT

Interventions To Weaken Yen


TOKYO (Dow Jones)--Japan's reserves of convertible foreign currencies, gold and International Monetary Fund special drawing rights rose $8.7 billion in October from September to $405.7 billion, the Ministry of Finance said Wednesday.

The rise followed September's increase of Y24.79 billion from August.

The ministry said its foreign exchange interventions totaled Y3.211 trillion during the July-September period, when Japan acted aggressively to weaken the yen after the dollar plunged in the wake of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in the U.S.








uponroof (11/06/01; 17:50:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 64829)
Canada down to a pathetic 34+ tonnes
http://globalarchive.ft.com/globalarchive/articles.html?print=true&id=011106002851
Sold another tonne last month.

R Powell (11/06/01; 17:42:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 64828)
Silver chart
http://members.home.net/trader139/INDEX.HTM
I found this next door and thought it interesting. This isn't saying much as I find anything concerning silver to be interesting. It's from a fellow named fleetwood.

Starting on page 42 of the Oct. issue of "Futures" is an article on refining the pattern recognition analysis of the silver market. I'm only slightly interested in technical analysis but there was a nice chart of the yearly percentage change in mine production of silver. It shows a decline of over 40% over the last two years with the rate of decline accelerating! What it does not give is any references to back up this claim or any indication of whether this is primary silver production or secondary (bi-product) production or both. The article is "Silver in the Data mine" by James Cormier-Chisholm. More on this later.
Rich


BR549 (11/6/01; 16:59:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 64827)
Chess
Mr Gresham (msg#: 64815)---

Being a chess player myself, I loved your analogy about chess. The interesting thing about chess is the Masters anticipate far in advance what their different scenarios are while waiting for the counter move.

When playing on the clock in tournament chess you don't have the luxury that you do in a leisurely game.

Once I was in New Orleans strolling down one of the side streets in the French Quarter with my lovely bride, when I came across an individual reading a chess book with a chess board, a table, and another chair across from his. At one time in my life I had won my 3,600 member class high school chess championship and having a few drinks, was felling "cocky" about my skills. He was a chess Master that charged $5.00 per game. Beyond stupidity, I asked him if he would like to wager a side bet on the game. He then asked me my name, I told him, and he said to save my money. He said there were only four people in the world that could beat him at Chess, and I wasn't one of them. Four games later at $5.00 per clip, I decided that he was correct.

The difference in Chess and Gold manipulation is that you can see and anticipate your opponents moves on a fair level playing field.

Regards,

BR549


Black Blade (11/06/01; 16:44:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 64826)
Would interest rates of zero make you feel better?
http://www.globeinvestor.com/servlet/WireFeedRedirect/RT/D,D/20011105/wmath05?cf=GlobeInvestor/config&vg=BigAdVariableGenerator&slug=wmath05&date=20011105&archive=rtgam

Snippit:

Not that long ago, some U.S. economy watchers warned that the Federal Reserve was lowering interest rates so quickly there was a danger inflation might start to rear its ugly head again. And now? Now, a little inflation would be a sight for sore eyes, since that would mean that at least the economy was growing again. Now, interest rates are approaching their lowest level in 40 years and still no one is worried about inflation - instead, they're worried that even lower rates aren't going to do any good.

Earlier this year, one of the big economic debates was what letter of the alphabet the U.S. downturn would wind up resembling: a V-shaped recovery with a sharp bounce-back from the bottom, or a W-shaped rebound with two bottoms. Only a few pessimists were favouring a different letter - the dreaded L-shape, where the economy falls to a new low and stays there for years. Now, the proponents of the L theory are increasing in number, as each new economic report looks worse than the next, with no end in sight.


Black Blade: This article does not paint a very cheery picture. Alan Greenspan has only 200 bps left! His pile of chips is dwindling and now he is walking on thin ice. It looks as if we could be entering the end game soon. Consumer and corporate debt hangs around the necks of all like a very heavy albatross. Even with "cheap" cash, there does not appear to be a rush to the banks. This recession is going to get worse no matter how much more Alan and the boys cut rates. Meanwhile companies desperately look for ways to cut costs by casting nonessential "Bones" on the "Bone Pile." Regardless, corporate earnings are in the toilet as companies loudly and deceptively tout strong "Pro Forma" earnings in an effort to pull the wool over the eyes of the dim bulbs. In a word - "GRIM"


Cavan Man (11/6/01; 16:34:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 64825)
site steward
US/Sino Trade
What is the breakdown? My bet is a larger volume of Sino coming this way. Interdependent? I have worked in US mfg. for twenty years and I can say with great conviction that it is difficult to find US producers (excluding foods and medicines) of most products. IMHO, the US consumer is DEPENDENT on this Forex disadvantaged nation of poor people working for scant wages producing quality consumer durables and non-durables.

John Doe (11/6/01; 16:20:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 64824)
(No Subject)
Mr Gresham,

Actually, money doesn't disappear on default. If I eventually renege on my credit card, I still have my pocket fisherman and Ronco still has it's payment, and those $s still circulate in the system (unless velocity drops to zero, which is a whole other topic). It's only when some "financial institution" somewhere...credit card company, bank, credit insurer, bond fund, money market fund, (or even a private investor) takes the total loss of my non-payment against its original capital base that the money is extinguished. If the lending process had been carried to extremes, far in excess of fundamental economic reality, these write-offs, in the aggregate, can easily exceed the capital base of the entire banking industry, or worse, the entire financial sector...game over. Hence, the likely explanation for Japan's reluctance to clear it's books. It can't. What they're calling deflation in Japan is a combination of falling money velocity and repricing (i.e., correctly pricing) grossly inflated financial and real assets.

Some people call the repricing of inflated assets deflation, but it's really just bringing fantasy back in line with reality. Other people call falling commodity prices deflation, but it's really just marginal changes in industrial demand as the economy moves from unsustainable fantasy phase back to sustainable reality. Now, if the world were operating in a non-bubble-economy mode and prices began falling because productivity and technological gains were increasing output with the same or reduced inputs (including, and especially including capital), THAT would be deflation, provided the money supply was constant or growing, at best, no faster than output. And, incidentally, the world would probably be on either a gold standard or some extremely disciplined (in other words, imaginary) fiat regime.

It's funny; we've had rampant US and global inflation the past 10, 20, and 30 years. The latest period required something like 4 or 5 units of capital for each single unit of output in the US, yet this was labeled "normal", all the while asset prices were plainly showing the effects of this inflation. Now that these prices ever so slowly begin to correct, we hear shouts from the rooftops "Deflation! Deflation! Save us! Create more money! Extend more credit! Faster!".

There's no easy cure for the junkie in need of his high. What's the monetary equivalent of methadone? Devaluation and overt inflation? It reminds of a line from a Woody Allen movie (I think it was either "Play It Again, Sam" or "Annie Hall"). Woody's having all these school children give there life story speech, but from the perspective of the adult they would someday become, and a little girl stands up from her school desk and says, in a total deadpan: "I used to be a heroin addict, now I'm a methadone addict".


Netking (11/6/01; 16:19:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 64823)
Silver Manipulation - Cont.
http://www.kitcomm.com/comments/gold/2001q4/2001_11/1011106.135846.ted_butle.htm
Silver bugs - A link for the follow up letter from Mr Buttler to Mr Viola and Mr Collins(Comex) with regards to the manipulation issues raised per previous postings here.
------------------------------------------------------------
Galearis(64804)- . . . It would be interesting to see some of those Ag displays in the Museums yes. You have had a good privileged background with the experience you have had in this precious metal. . . in the days ahead it will again become really precious to ALL.
- Netking


uponroof (11/6/01; 16:17:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 64822)
Can't Live With 'em.....Can't Live Without 'em..........unless you're Taliban with the new improved definition of 'angels'
Like Henny Youngman said: "take my wife.....please!"
or....
70 virgins trumps the old lady every time.
****************************************


Fearing death, Bin Laden's Band Marry Off Their Women

PTI
(London, November 4)


In the first signs that they do not expect to survive the war, Osama bin laden's elite bodyguards have begun marrying off their daughters and sisters to Afghan men around Kandahar.

The secret weddings took place last week in suburbs and villages around Kandahar and involved Arab women getting married to locals who agreed to look after them in return for large sums of money, The Sunday Telegraph reported today.

"The Arabs came at night bringing large numbers of women and suitcases of money," the newspaper quoted Abdul Razza, a teacher from Kandahar who witnessed some of the negotiations.

"They asked that the people look after their womenfolk and protect them in the war."

"The fact that the Arabs feel they can no longer protect the women is the first sign that they believe the war is not going their way," the report quoted a western diplomat as saying.

The women were completely covered but Razza believes some were as young as 12 and that they brought their mothers with them. Local mullahs carried out the quick marriage ceremonies.

An estimated 2,000 Arabs from Sudan, Egypt, Algeria and the United Arab Emirates, among other countries, lived in Kandahar before the war but fled last month before the start of the American campaign.

Some managed to escape, but many are thought to be in Uruzgan, a mountainous province with a network of caves that is the home province of Mullah Omar, Taliban's spiritual leader.

According to Razza, however, there was no shortage of men agreeing to take the Arab women as wives. "Normally we have to pay for women so they were happy to get brides who came with their own money particularly at the moment with so many shortages and high prices for food and fuel. They also believe it is their Islamic duty to protect these guests."

Many of the Arabs marrying off their women are believed to be from bin Laden's elite 055 Brigade, a crack squad of 500 Arabs set up five years ago.

Over the past two weeks, Americans have stepped up the bombing of caves where bin Laden and his guards are thought to be hiding.




John Doe (11/6/01; 16:14:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 64821)
(No Subject)

Netking,

Most sources indicate all the gold ever mined would fill a cube 20 yards (60 feet) on a side, or 216,000 cubic feet. A cube 100 feet on a side is 1,000,000 cubic feet, or about 5 times more voluminous. But who really knows?

Also, it is reported that the platinum ever mined would fit in a cube of about 9,000 cubic feet, and most of it is gone.

And all the silver ever mined would have filled a cube of about 3.5 million cubic feet. The next time you're at a football game, imagine a cube filling about half the playing field, from the 0 to the 50 yard line. That approximates all the silver that's ever been pulled from the ground, yet the majority of that is gone, too.


site steward (11/6/01; 15:06:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 64820)
International Editor Holger Jensen on U.S.-Chinese relations
http://www.usagold.com/gildedopinion/Jensen/index.html
When President Bush stopped calling China a "strategic competitor" and made it a "partner," he had more than terrorism on his mind. Sino-American trade now totals $120 billion a year, making the two countries interdependent. With the world sliding into recession and China likely to be least affected, it offers a cushion for U.S. business and a prospect of earlier recovery... The figures coming out of Washington and New York last week were certainly grim. ... In contrast, China's projected growth rate of more than 7 percent this year is expected to lose only half a percentage point.

TS (11/6/01; 14:57:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 64819)
End of the Empire?
Guess I'm partial to sinister conspiracies, but here's another take....

The American Empire On Its Deathbed
By Liz Michael
c. 2001
SierraTimes.com
11-6-1

"...and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? Who is able to make war with him?" ---- Revelation 13:4

There is a conspiracy theory, which has made the rounds in many circles for many years, that there are forces within the US government that are engineering events such as the 9-11 incident, the Oklahoma City bombing, and so forth, to implement this great "Master Plan" to implement a totalitarian government. This government is part and parcel of a much larger effort by the New World Order, the United Nations, the Illuminati, the Queen of England in league with the Vatican, the multinational corporations, or whomever the scapegoat of the day or the movement, is. Most of the conspiracy theorists present this as if it is a fait accompli which cannot be undone. For all intents and purposes, these people WORSHIP this coming leviathan which they see as unconquerable.

The truth may actually prove a lot more discomfiting for a lot more people when it materializes.

The truth is that the American government is in near collapse. The truth is that the recent attacks on the United States are NOT the result of the Bush family conspiring with the Clintons and other state liberals to coalesce power. The truth is likely that outside powers, far from trying to CREATE a totalitarian USA, are trying to remove the USA from its current position as world military and economic superpower, and would attempt to DESTROY any totalitarian USA, just like the Soviet Union collapsed and Nazi Germany was disassembled.

The powers that be have lost control

All the various moves you are seeing now are not the moves of someone "in control". They are the moves of a group of people that have suddenly discovered they have lost control. And are desperately trying to get it back.

Totalitarians in control wouldn't be intimidated by a little anthrax spread around Washington DC. Totalitarians would stand and fight. The Congress did not stand and fight. They RAN, and they ran like scalded dogs. The rest of the government also ran. These are the actions, not of people in control of a master plan, but of people in panic: people who have suddenly discovered they DON'T control what's going on.

Is the CIA having been hit with anthrax a sign of control? Let me repeat this: the terrorizers of the U.S. government HIT the Central Intelligence Agency. This is the agency that is supposed to know about these things before they happen. This is also the agency that was told by several sources that the 9-11 event was imminent, but either ignored the threat, or could not react to it in time. Do you REALLY THINK they LET themselves be hit?

Gray Davis, in an incredible moment of grandstanding, demonstrated more of this lack of control, by announcing a terrorist threat....but not quite a verified one. Just a rumor. Something even the FBI is now disavowing. So now we have all the king's men scrambling around trying to catch...they have no idea what...trying to stop.....they have no idea who. In other words, they are stumped. They're snookered. They're outsmarted.

A Sacramento journalist was taken into custody by police at Los Angeles International Airport and was forced to destroy photos he had been taking by an over-zealous National Guardsman. Totalitarians are not usually afraid to have their pictures taken. Recently, a key member of the Green Party was denied entry onto an aircraft, because she was a member of the Green Party attending a peace conference. They have tried to blame the anthrax incidents on everyone from Al-Queda, to Iraq, to racist domestic militias, to libertarian militias, to pagans: and its only a matter of time before they try and blame it on leftist activists, unions, and the religious right, or as Clinton did with the Murrah Building bombing, "right wing radical talk show hosts".

These people are not only afraid of foreign terrorists. These people are afraid of you and me. They are afraid of the press. They are afraid of the political activists. They are afraid of the pacifists. They are afraid of their own shadows. They are not in control of anything.

When the going gets tough, the tough go shopping?

Now, this "War On Terror" could have gone a different way. After September 11th, there could have been a call for the militia, which is the whole people, and not a handful of backwoods rednecks as is the romantic ideal (not that there's anything WRONG with being a backwoods redneck), a call for the whole people to be on alert, to become armed, to learn self-defense and battle techniques, and to train to do things like protect the bridges, the nuclear plants, the borders, the planes. That did not happen. We could have been told to prepare shelters against nuclear or biological attack. We could have been told to stock up on supplies, on first aid kits, and train in CPR and medical rescue techniques. To buy guns. To shore up our vehicles for potential emergency use or flight.

Instead, what did Rudy Giuliani ask us to do to save New York? What did George W. Bush ask us to do to save the country.

They asked us to shop.

Rudy asked us to "come see a Broadway show" even though we couldn't drive into the city without a second passenger, and had to go through roadblocks and search points more dense than those at the Mexican border.

The President asked us to fly in planes that he does not fly in, because they are not safe enough for him to do so. Instead of asking us to save, invest, stock up on supplies, he wants us to continue engaging in pointless consumption and satisfying our vanities. Excuse me, Mr. President, but didn't you just say we're at WAR? Didn't you just appoint a new office of Homeland Security because you knew we were going to be under imminent attack by Al-Queda agents in our own country? Yet we're supposed to go on as if 9-11 never happened? We're supposed to go shopping?

Wartime is a time when a little austerity is in order. The only people during war who would spend like there's no tomorrow are people who expect to die soon. If the American economy is dependent on such frivolous spending, then it basically is already screwed.

Anti-terrorism bills the death warrant of America as a world power

The Congress of the United States issued a series of bills in an attempt to regain control, the most threatening of which is the one using the acronym of the PATRIOT Act. The legislation is some of the most liberty-infringing legislation that has been passed in many a decade. President George W. Bush dutifully signed them all without so much as a whimper: in fact, he was glad to do so. At that point, whether he realizes it or not, George W. Bush signed the death warrant of the American Empire.

It is the death warrant of the American Empire for several reasons. First of all, it has coalesced a small but important coalition, on the left, the right and the center, AGAINST the United States government. And that coalition just happens to be the people who are most concerned about liberty and freedom. The President and the Congress has basically just told every person concerned about liberty and freedom in America, from the ACLU activist and the WTO-NAFTA protester, to the religious conservative and the libertarian free marketer, to go to hell. In other words, they essentially told the real American patriots that they can bug off. Liberty and freedom is not important. Security is the prime directive. Sit down, shut up, wave your flag and do as you are told.

They are living the warning of Benjamin Franklin, that those who trade liberty for security deserve neither. The tragedy for them is, that government will be a bigger target than ever now.

The "War On Terror" will be lost

The second reason it is the death warrant to the Empire is that it ensures a loss in the War on Terror. Insures a loss? Yep. Why? How?

It doesn't matter how well American troops do overseas. It doesn't matter if they kill Osama bin Laden. It doesn't matter how many Al-Queda agents they destroy abroad. The real measure of the success or failure of the War on Terror will be to what extent the American mainland will still be standing after all is said and done.

That brings me to the third reason the American Empire is about to die. Immigration policy. Out of the hundreds of new policies implemented in the last few months to ensure the safety of everyone, the most obvious one that would have actually done some good would have been to close the borders and revoke the visas and green cards of everyone having come into this country from a Muslim country. That one act would have prevented more terrorists from coming in, and it would have provided a mechanism for deporting 95% of potential terrorists still in this country.

Instead, we invite Syrians in to take more flying lessons and are going to grant Taliban-sympathetic Pakistanis carte blanche to come here and engage terror.

Because this third reason has barely been addressed, the agents who will continue to physically destroy America in future months and years, as well as kill millions, are already here, and will continue to be here. Eventually they will perform their task. These terrorists will eventually devastate the American mainland. They will do it regardless of how successful we are in prosecuting the war abroad. In fact, it is entirely possible that the more we punish Al-Queda abroad, the more likely the terrorists here will devastate us.

The American people will never forgive the government and the agencies that are going to allow this to happen. They are going to turn on them and destroy whatever is left of them that Al-Queda has not already destroyed by then. Being Democrat or Republican is not going to matter because both of them let it happen, and both of them will rightly share the guilt.

FBI shows more evidence of having lost control

Now, occasionally, the king's men have caught some of these people. For example, the Millennium Bomb plot was foiled. But they cannot catch them all. Not in time. It took them seventeen years to catch the last big mail terrorist, the Unabomber, and he was one guy living in a shack. They got lucky when a no license plate vehicle turned up Timothy McVeigh: but they still haven't caught most of McVeigh's coconspirators. They have one thousand foreigners in jail over the 9-11 incident: the only ones who have been charged have been charged with extremely Mickey Mouse stuff like "lying about having met" one of the terrorists, or lying on an application for something or another. This indicates to me that law enforcement doesn't have anything approaching a clue on this. The arrest of a thousand people on nothing is another sign of desperation, and a sure sign of having lost control: and it is a sign of tyranny that many of us refuse to tolerate in what is supposed to be a free country.

Governments are not perpetual and eternal. I know to many who work for government or depend upon government that they seem so. Many governments and many leaders talk as if they are everlasting. Hitler talked about a "thousand year Reich" which ultimately lasted only 12. The government of one of the mightiest powers of the 20th century, the Soviet Union, failed to survive to see the 21st.

Whether the United States survives as an entity, whether we see it resurrected under the original intent of the founders, whether we see a fragmentation into several states and regions, whether we see a reassertion of former nations such as the Confederate States of America or the Indian nations, I do not know. But of one thing I am sure: the Imperial World Superpower of the United States is finished. It could survive perhaps slightly beyond the Bush Presidency, but probably not long after that.

I just pray that most of the American people are not killed along with their government.

What can we do?

Many of you are violently disagreeing with what I just wrote. Many others are asking, "well, what then?" If you are not asking it now, you surely will in the future as more terrorist incidents devastate America.

You have to come to the understand that in its essence, America is not its government. America is not its flag. America is a concept, a concept that enshrines liberty and freedom. America is also a people. There are many things which you can do to preserve the America that deserves preservation.

1. Make very huge mental adjustments

It doesn't matter what your politics are. It doesn't matter what your religion is. Whatever they are you need to take them seriously. The primary enemy.... we have secondary enemies, for certain, and I will offer suspects, but the primary enemy is Al-Queda. Most of America is centered on the concept of money. It may shock you to hear this free market capitalist tell you to not obsess over money.

Your enemy carries with him a religious fervor which will cause him to do many things to ruin you. And while I do not believe Allah trumps Yaheveh, and do not know if he trumps any other gods or not, you had better believe that Allah trumps Mammon. In this environment, if your god is Mammon, you are going to lose You may very well sell your enemy the rope with which he hangs you. He did it on 9-11.

Most people base their politics on the assumption that the government will always be here. I submit to you that if you really care about your issue concerns, you prepare for the day when the government cannot or will not enforce them. Develop ways of caring for the environment which DON'T involve enforcement by a government thug. Develop a safety net which DOESN'T depend on the government. Develop crime fighting methods that DON'T depend on the king's men being there to do it for you. Develop disaster and rescue efforts that assume the government cannot act, and that you will have to do it yourself. When al hell breaks loose, not only will FEMA NOT be a tyrannical agency set to take away all your rights, as is the popular myth circulating in patriot circles - FEMA will likely not be there AT ALL.

The government will soon NOT be there to help. They likely won't be there at all. And you had better be ready for that.

2. Civil Defense

Become the militia, and organize neighborhood defense forces. Buy guns. Stock up on food, water, first aid, and survival supplies, and construct viable shelters. Develop plans for defending vital services such as hospitals, power plants, water resources, and food. Develop evacuation plans and have them ready to go at a moments notice. Determine what your "bug out" territories are. Learn to fight. Get in shape. Stay healthy and learn about self medicine, for when the doctors won't be available.

This is the fatal mistake that both George W. Bush and his Democratic loyal opposition made: they failed to call up and muster civilian defense. There are cities which are going to be vaporized because of that fatal mistake. There are environmental resources that are going to be devastated because of that fatal mistake. You and your community, however, don't have to follow them all over a cliff.

Don't like guns? Believe in gun control? Get over it. We're at war and you're a target. In war, soldiers have guns, and you are one, like it or not. Learn how to defend yourself and your family from wild animals and thugs or watch them become worm food. You're a pacifist? Al-Queda isn't honoring the wishes of conscientious objectors today, sorry.

3. Resist the tyranny

Many of you will get this one right away. Resist the tyranny. Live as a free person. You don't have to be told. You easily see that the only way to make the tyranny ultimately go away is to refuse to participate in it.

Others of you will ask, but wouldn't this be "unpatriotic"?

Have you ever heard of the principle of "tough love". Basically, sometimes you have to let your children, or your friend, go, and let them suffer the consequences of their actions, in order to save them. Because enabling them to continue taking the wrong path will only in the long run get them, and maybe you, killed. Study any twelve step program for validation of this.

This is what has to be done with the federal government, and many of the state and local governments. They are our children. We created them. But they are errant children. They are children who have become thugs and terrorists. They're not REALLY the enemy. But in order to rescue them, we may have to treat them like the enemy. We may even have to kill them, as per the Toraic proscription as to excessively errant children. We may have to shun them, as per the New Testament proscription as to excessively errant and unrepentant church members.

Resisting the tyranny means many things. It means not paying taxes. It means trimming your reliance on the state, and upon its identity documents, as much as you can practically get away with. It means using jury nullification to disrupt their trials. It means using every trick you can think of to disrupt their affairs.

Don't talk to the FBI. If you talk to the FBI, it gives them the chance of prosecuting you because they think you lied to them. So just don't talk to them. There are a thousand people in federal detention centers as we speak, NONE of them having been charged with any crime of any consequence. It can happen to you, too. Don't talk to them. Tell them to go to hell.

Do you think that is treasonous talk? Well, the greatest President we ever had, one Thomas Jefferson, said that when the government fears the people, there is liberty. But when the people fear the government, there is tyranny. So immediately, I say to you now. Stop fearing the government. Make them fear you. Make them mortified to come into your neighborhood, terrified to approach your door and knock on it, frightened to stop your car and ask for your license.

Remember that these civil liberties violations started with the government. The plans they have to invade our privacy, take our property, deprive us of liberty and freedom of travel, were initiated BY the government, not by freedom lovers. THEY started it. If we love freedom and liberty, we must fight for it. We must fight ALL tyranny, whether it comes from Osama bin Laden or Saddam Hussein, or whether it comes from agents of our own government.

Many of you have varied opinions on George W. Bush, ranging from the "Antichrist" to the best President we could have at a time like this. I don't think President Bush is a BAD man. But I do think he has made a fatal mistake. A mistake which he could undo tomorrow by executive order: but I don't see it happening. Having done this, he has failed to do his constitutional duty, and does not deserve support for his current domestic policy. And don't you dare gloat, Tom Daschle. Mr. Bush hasn't done anything wrong that you haven't also done, and nearly every member of Congress, Democrat and Republican, with you.

And definitely, don't say "I told you so", Mr. Gore. Most of our present dilemma happened because of events set in motion on your watch and due to your incompetence and your tolerance of a corrupt administration.

4. Stand for public office

Every single freedom loving patriot needs to stand for public office now. They need to stand in every party: Democrat and Republican, Libertarian and Green, Reform and Constitutionalist. There are really just two parties now: Patriots and Traitors. Washington DC, and most state governments, are "one party" operations and it is the wrong party. There are no more chances to save the United States of America by the electoral process. This is the last chance. If you all don't stand now, there will be no more chances. If you fail to choose to work with ballots now, you guarantee you will have to work with bullets later. You may have to anyway: but do you really want to see an American Civil War?

5. Homeschool your kids

I don't say this lightly. The public school systems in most communities are largely beyond hope. They are not teaching values. They are teaching sheepery, to go along to get along. They are literally terrorizing kids and parents alike with "zero tolerance" tyranny over guns, drugs, t-shirts, and free thought. Screw them. Whatever your values are, now is the time to teach them to your children. I can assure you they will not learn them in public school. They will also not learn "how" to think in public school, as opposed to what to think.

Also, public schools are going to become a very dangerous place. Osama bin Laden has already told us that he will attack our children. What better way to attack our children than at school, all of which have been declared "arms-free zone" enforced by such zero tolerance tyranny that you cannot even point a finger in a mock game of cops and robber without suffering persecution. Such schools have in effect sent an engraved invitation to Al-Queda terrorists which says: HIT ME, OUR KIDS AREN'T PROTECTED BY ANYONE. The law of the jungle will assert itself here. They will attack our schools. They will kill our children, just as sure as any wilderness predator goes after the young, the weak, and the least defended.

You think they won't? Then you must have forgotten that the Ryder truck of Timothy McVeigh was parked right below a day care center, which McVeigh knew existed.

6. Reorient your economy

The reason this country is in as much economic jeopardy as we are in is that we have forsaken industrial jobs and sent them overseas, and we have replaced them with Pizza Hut Delivery and a lot of service sector jobs.

I want to suggest that now is the time for everyone to tighten their belts. Now is the time to make economic purchasing decisions based on needs and not on wants. And we should all orient our economies and our jobs and businesses to things which people are going to need regardless of the economy. What would those be? Food. Shelter. Basic clothing. Medical supplies. Basic transportation. Information. Communications. Energy. Defense. Waste disposal. Less emphasis should be put on "toys" and more emphasis on utility: in other words, if you're going to dabble in toys, make them toys relevant for survival. Also more emphasis needs to be placed on things which can be recycled and refurbished, and less on "throw away" stuff.

Moreover, we need to strengthen our mutual survivability by getting as many of those things locally as we possibly can.

Also, if you are investors, you need to reorient your investments so that they do two things. Number one, so they are not dependent on the US dollar, and two, so they are reflective of material and necessity industries and not pleasure and service industries, because the material and necessity industries are more likely to survive both a catastrophic series of events and the collapse of the dollar.

Additionally, get mobile. Mobility may be the key to survival. If you're into cars, I would suggest classic cars as a hobby. Why? In the event of a nuclear-generated electro-magnetic pulse (EMP) wiping out electrical devices in an area, classic cars which use an older technology may be at a premium, and you may be able to escape in that old clunker when the new stuff doesn't work any more.

Final thoughts

The odds are very great that we are fighting a lot more people than Al-Queda. Very likely, Saddam Hussein is a root cause of this and future violence. For those of you who believe in Biblical prophecies, Hussein considers himself a modern day "Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon". You ought to make yourself familiar with what is prophesied to be destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar, the Babylonians, the Assyrians, or the Chaldeans, all which could correspond to modern day Iraq.

Moreover, I also pose a question: who benefits from our destruction? Who gains from our removal as an economic and military superpower. Certainly usual suspects like China and Russia might. Islamic fundamentalism could well spread, with nuclear weapons falling into the hands of people willing to declare Jihad against all non-Muslims, surely a dan: ^ܼ "@ p `"@  ^ L>6h b a-->6uT |@ A a jt _d@ _0>6p _0


Centennial Precious Metals, Inc. / USAGOLD (11/6/01; 13:58:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 64818)
"The Great Money Giveaway" (at 2%) supplants the "Strong Dollar Policy"

Swiss gold francs
Gold Today!

Because you haven't heard the phrase "strong dollar policy" for awhile.

While the Administration's Treasury Department remains mum on the issue, the latest rate cut (to 2.0%) by the Federal Reserve tells the score loud and clear. And given the dollar's legacy position as a reserve asset currently being held throughout the world, these are the things that sudden financial crisis and hyperinflations are made of.

In the final analysis -- in times of stress -- paper is only paper.

How solid is your portfolio?



site steward (11/6/01; 13:34:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 64817)
For the record: text of today's FOMC statement with decision to lower rates 50 bps
http://federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/press/general/2001/20011106/default.htm
Release Date: November 6, 2001

The Federal Open Market Committee decided today to lower its target for the federal funds rate by 50 basis points to 2 percent. In a related action, the Board of Governors approved a 50 basis point reduction in the discount rate to 1-1/2 percent.

Heightened uncertainty and concerns about a deterioration in business conditions both here and abroad are damping economic activity. For the foreseeable future, then, the Committee continues to believe that, against the background of its long-run goals of price stability and sustainable economic growth and of the information currently available, the risks are weighted mainly toward conditions that may generate economic weakness.

Although the necessary reallocation of resources to enhance security may restrain advances in productivity for a time, the long-term prospects for productivity growth and the economy remain favorable and should become evident once the unusual forces restraining demand abate.

In taking the discount rate action, the Federal Reserve Board approved the request submitted by the Board of Directors of the Federal Reserve Bank of Richmond.


Old Yeller (11/6/01; 13:27:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 64816)
Mr. Gresham
http://csf.colorado.edu/debt/sep11.html

One of the points that ORO brought up recently was the push/pull aspect of the trade deficit;i.e. off-shore US dollar debt obligations sucks up the dollars as soon as Mr.G sets them loose.Thereby keeping a constant source of demand,which makes a strong dollar no matter how debased it becomes.

It's quite a chess game isn't it?

Puzzling over the future moves is a never ending source of fascination.



Mr Gresham (11/6/01; 12:40:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 64815)
Saville on inflation
http://www.321gold.com/editorials/saville/110501/saville110501.html
Following up on my Saville link last night:

"In the US the M2 money supply has increased by around 10% over the past 12 months, so the US inflation rate is 10%. End of story. As discussed in last week's commentary, defining the inflation rate as a change in prices causes insurmountable problems. This is because money is spent in different ways at different times, depending on investment cycles and external factors such as foreign exchange rates. At certain times commodity prices will be the major beneficiaries of inflation, whereas at other times financial assets will benefit the most. "

Check me on this: In debt-created fractional-reserve fiat money creation theory, deflation can only happen (money supply can only decrease) when debt is extinguished, either by repayment or by default.

Any other loss of asset values that are liquefied by Fed action are net inflationary, right? If Fed buys securities that were in or about to default, that is net neutral, quantity-wise, no?

There is very little debt repayment going on under Fed re-liquefying (as Belgian said: only profits can repay debt). There is only re-financing happening, at lower rates, in order to stave off insolvency.

No debt repayment, and growing defaults, a money loss which the Fed is trying to replace with flakier fiat printing. This means net no-flation if Fed succeeds in balancing them, but IN-flation if Fed overprints or if the newer money is PERCEIVED as less solid than the old debt of same quantity it replaces: then there will be flight to real assets (gold, land, cans of tuna).

That is how I see gold benefiting under either the (temporary) deflation scenario, or the successful (or inadvertent) inflation one: The money which is Fed-created is of less value (flakier fiat) even if of the same quantity as that before. Flight will be toward the more SOLID money, regardless of the statistical quantities reported by economists one way or the other.

At such a time, all "moneys" are not fungible, in other words, exchangeable as if of equal QUALITY. We get into a time where QUALITY of moneys counts, on several different scales, and not just the prior measurements of QUANTITY, which passed for economics when all forms of "the DOllar as money" were seen as equal in Quality.

Adding a new variable here makes our discussions (here and on other similar boards) more interesting, and difficult. People like Oro remind me of chessplayers I've known (and occasionally played) who were always several moves ahead of me in their thinking. I just couldn't keep as many variables as they could awake in my skull, moving and relating together. Who knows -- maybe the other guy was only one step ahead of me; for game purposes it might as well have been ten moves, for I rarely caught a glimpse of his thought processes as he whupped me.

That is why it rarely benefits us to ARGUE with each other about our differing viewpoints here. We are each holding different variables in our heads, and tracking them for our own interest and on behalf of all. It takes many of us to keep all of the pieces of the puzzle ready to put in place when the larger picture is ready for each. I know I can't do it alone, and I would never want to chase off the person who had the piece that showed me how to make sense of mine.


Buena Fe (11/6/01; 12:38:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 64814)
CB War
the real story about rates will be to see if Europe follows on Thursday.

Is it time to up the anti our play along?


BR549 (11/6/01; 12:22:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 64813)
Fed cuts 50 basis points
http://federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/press/general/2001/20011106/default.htm
Surprise! Surprise!

BR549 (11/6/01; 11:42:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 64812)
SWAPS-A way to hide total interest exposure all of the way from Buenos Aires to Paris
http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?ptitle=Top%20Financial%20News&s1=blk&tp=ad_topright_topfin&T=markets_bfgcgi_content99.ht&s2=ad_right1_topfin&bt=ad_position1_topfin&middle=ad_frame2_topfin&s=AO_geQhPdQXJnZW50
11/06 12:30
Argentina's Banks Brace for Losses From Default

BR-Swaps are agreements to exchange interest payments, such as a fixed for a floating rate. One benefits and the other does not. Swaps also hide the true exposure that a CB has on its debts as they do not report anything except the derivative, not the underlying risk.

"The bank, the biggest owner of government bonds and provincial loans after state-owned Banco de la Nacion, is being forced to accept losses on the $4.9 billion of debt it holds as part of a default by Argentina. A wave of withdrawals and corporate bankruptcies may follow, analysts said.

The government is demanding domestic banks and pension funds swap their holdings for new securities that pay as little as a third the interest and mature later. Already, Argentina's banks own government debt equal to almost twice their net worth, and many would be insolvent if they valued holdings at market prices, according a J.P. Morgan Chase & Co. report.

``These guys are walking dead,'' said Ernesto Ramos, portfolio manager at Nicholas-Applegate Capital Management in San Diego, with about $200 million in Latin American stocks. ``There's going to be a banking crisis in Argentina.''

Argentines have pulled about $10.1 billion, or 12 percent of total deposits, since late June, including $1.2 billion over the last two weeks.

The government plans to detail terms of an initial swap with domestic investors later today. Fitch Inc. rating agency said the exchange represents a default.

Still, Galicia's provincial and federal government debt equals more than three times its equity, according to J.P. Morgan. Like other banks, it is betting that regulators will help keep the biggest in business, analysts said."


BR-The last paragraph says it all about the mentality of banksters.

The Central Bank of France hopes to save 200MM Euro's in debt costs next year by using "SWAPS" to reduce the average maturity of their bonds.

Again, the problem with CB's using SWAPS is that no one outside of the CB knows how much actual interest is actually owed on the debt.

Of course, since CB's all deal in fiat of one form or another, who knows the real value of anything. The citizens find out like in Argentinavia default and increased taxes as a result of covering the manipulators mistakes.

I hope that some of those poor Argentines got their money out in time enough to invest in physical Gold.

BR549


Centennial Precious Metals, Inc. / USAGOLD (11/6/01; 11:15:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 64811)
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site steward (11/6/01; 11:00:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 64810)
Open market participants show expectation for 50 basis point cut
As we all know, the FOMC meets today to decide on the appropriate fed funds target rate to deliver monetary policy commensurate with economic conditions and political realities of the day.

When the Fed's NY Desk entered the open market yesterday to conduct policy operations, it came as no surprise that the $3.5 billion added through overnight repos was provided at a stop out rate just a shade under the current FOMC target of 2.5 percent.

More revealing is the 28-day term repurchase operation used to add $3 billion to banking system reserves. The stop out rate for various collateral accepted by the Fed (in line with the highest bids submitted by market participants) was only a shade over 2 percent, ranging from 2.09 to 2.16.

From this, it would seem that those in the best position to know what's what are expecting a 50 basis point rate cut at the conclusion of today's meeting.

Easy money just keeps getting easier. Your portfolio will require gold to survive the inevitable day of reckoning for this great money giveaway.

R.


Netking (11/6/01; 11:00:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 64809)
Germany creates a mega-lender . . . long live "Eurohypo"
http://www.theage.com.au/business/2001/11/07/FFXBOUMJOTC.html
Snippet;
Deutsche Bank AG, Dresdner Bank AG and Commerzbank AG have agreed to merge their mortgage banking units and create a lender with 237 billion ($A417 billion) in assets to cut costs and free up capital as earnings decline.

The merger of Commerzbank's Rheinhyp, Dresdner's Deutsche Hyp and Deutsche Bank's Eurohypo would lead to annual savings of 120 million starting in 2004, the banks said in a statement to the Frankfurt exchange. The bank will be called Eurohypo . . . "
------------------------------------------------------------
Looks like something we'll see much more of, particularly now in the present & days ahead as earnings have come under pressure. The name? . . . will leave for our "Euro Bug" buddies to comment on that one!
- Netking


jb (11/6/01; 10:49:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 64808)
reg howe
no i cannot do better,this is not my ball to run with.it is a very difficult case and that is why their should be more than one person running with it.if it is such a big deal then why only the one person,is it money etc.i was under the impression their was a team of lawyers from philly.
i have no more to say on htis .


Old Yeller (11/6/01; 10:21:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 64807)
Interesting tidbit from yesterday's ORO posting

Speculation as to China's gold stock,puts it as up to 15,000 tonnes.

Very interesting,that will throw a whole new light on market dynamics,if there any way of putting some substance to it.

Given Chinese history,I've always been puzzled by the high percentage of US dollar reserves.Seems to be a pretty vulnerable backstop to a economy that usually presents more questions than answers.


BR549 (11/6/01; 10:07:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 64806)
Distressed bonds are really nice and default is equally as pleasant
ORO (msg#: 64788)---" Distressed bonds are really nice. The restructured Argentine bonds at 7% will be sold in the aftermarket by their current holders, having already realized a 40% loss from par. Once the debt is restructured to 7-8%, the bonds at a 40% discount would have an effective yield of 12% and enjoy US and IMF guarantees. Which comes down to not bad at all."

When you say "not bad for all", you must mean not bad for all of the fat cats who bought these high risk instruments because they paid a corresponding extraordinary high rate of interest. According to the article and others that I have read, when bonds are restructured in this manner where the exchange unilaterly reduces these bonds holdings would be considered a default. The Argentina government desperate to get out of this quagmire will "...sell new bonds backed by tax revenue. By offering loans instead of bonds in the exchange, the government said it found a legal loophole around the restriction.. ". So the Argentina taxpayer ends up stuck with the financial manipulators malpractices and assumes their burden via this risk transfer.

The initial benefactors are not individual investors but their internal domestic bondholders. If you look at the Argentina CB, JPMC and others who are intertwined, I am sure these manipulators are put into this category.

What possible reason would the World Bank have for guaranteeing these bonds when Argentina has a long track record of not honoring its debts and a string of defaults. I think that we all know the reasons---this is nothing other than a "bailout" of sorts for the high risk gamblers that buy these instruments.

The thing that I am finding in research into derivatives, that other CB's are utilizing these practices in this same sort of way to hide their true financial status. More on this in future posts.

Distressed bonds are an indication of the irresponsibility of the issuer and a their future credibility. Burned once, your fault, burned twice(or 10 tines). This activity when condoned by organizations such as the world bank shows how fragile the derivative and manipulative CB's house of cards really is.

Would you buy these new bonds now as an individual invesotr as opposed to the Bank of India's bonds at 19%? What would keep B o Argentina from unilaterally reducing the new interest rate from 7%. I know the guarantees.

Do you condone this sort of activity by CB's?

Stealing from the people by the fat cats is still stealing, regardless of how expensive the pin striped suits they wear are.

BR549


Mr Gresham (11/6/01; 09:59:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 64805)
Roach & crew
http://www.morganstanley.com/GEFdata/digests/20011105-mon.html#anchor0
I'm getting to like these guys with their worldwide detail, though more from the standard economists' world than we usually hear here, but it's good to know what some of the big institutional views are to begin with, and then take our points of departure from there.

For example, in countering Roach's deflation arguments, FOA would probably cite loss of reserve currency status and breakdown of markets like paper gold. Is that something that mainstream economists just cannot address? Everything in their world assumes structures remain as is, and only the statistics within them change?


Galearis (11/6/01; 09:41:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 64804)
@ Netking re silver specimens
re the "silver museum" piece
That was an interesting story and provoked some memories about silver as specimens for me.

There IS a reason one doesn't see as much silver in museums. The first reason is that museums tend to have on hand specimens of silver and cold that somewhat reflects the importance in the jurisdiction of location. A silver producer country usually does have a lot of silver on display in museums - and even elsewhere. I live in Ontario Canada, as you may know, and the Royal Ontario Museum in Toronto has a spectacular display of native silver within its walls. Just a short walk down the way lies Queen's Park, the provincial legislature buildings, and here to one can see at least one large block of native silver on display. A visit to Cobalt, Ontario in the north of the province will reveal a whole museum dedicated to silver - with even more spectacular sights. The National Museum in Ottawa has an excellent display. I know because I sold them some of it (smile).

But there are other reasons for the dearth.

Native silver (elemental) in the country rock is actually rarer than gold. Most of the metal mined is combined with sulphur and it is not the pure metal. Silver is highly reactive to sulphur and hence the geological environments where it forms create great odds against elemental ores happening. Native silver is a rare elemental mineral - much rarer than native gold.

Native silver specimens demand very high prices - similar to gold - by collectors. The public generally doesn't have a clue.

As an ore mineral silver in elemental form is not often particularly attractive in comparison to gold. It is often harder to see - and is usually tarnished. Gold looks better.
However, I possess about fifty kilos or so of native silver from Cobalt, Ontario (I am a mineral collector of years) and when one slabs large vein sections of highgrade material and then puts a polish to it, the sight is breath-taking. It often looks like frost on a window pain.

Jewellry: I have made jewellry from this material. Twenty years ago slabbed material (sliced in <1/4" thickness) for making jewellry would cost in inflated adjusted dollars over $20 per inch in Canada. Much more in the United States.

Now, this material has almost disappeared.

The reason silver isn't seen very much in museums is because it is harder to find. Most of the material is now in museums or private collections.

G.


Galearis (11/6/01; 09:09:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 64803)
@ Netking
your ( msg#: 64789), Ag ponderings...
I thank you a whole bunch for this comment!

I did not know about the variability in sizes for the 1000 oz bars. But I cannot speculate as to how this would impact on industrial demand for these sizes. One would think it would matter a lot, but if their wasn't demand for this size, why would they make them - in spite of the potential "shorting" (couldn't resist) of up to 120 troy oz per...? A jewellry manufacturer would make approximately $2000(US) more on 120 oz (based on a 5 fold mark-up of the wholesale to retail sale). But I suspect that the discount is also factored into at the source cost - and the buyers from the refineries (can afford to) always feel lucky about the odds. (smile)

Kodak, however, in buying film silver for refining would perhaps have a different opinion... Maybe.

Upon re-reading my original post I also noted an ambiguity around my use of "demand" that I will have to watch in future. I used this in the sense of a realization of demand in the form of orders to refiners. Style over content.

Thanks again for your researches.

G.


nickel62 (11/6/01; 09:07:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 64802)
bj
I don't think that your criticism of Reg Howe is very realistic, considering the complexity of the matter at hand. Maybe you think you could do better?

jb (11/6/01; 08:15:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 64801)
GATA
it is inexcusable not to deliver the papers in german and by a representive to BIS,any lawyer would know that.also only a fool represents himself in court.
not much more to be said than that.


Editor, The Gilded Opinion (11/6/01; 07:48:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 64800)
"What To Do About the Recession" by William Anderson
http://www.usagold.com/THEGILDEDOPINION.html



"For all its alleged great powers, the government cannot stop this recession. The government and its wrongheaded policies are responsible for this economic calamity, not the hijackers who murdered several thousand people, as dreadful as that act was."


William Anderson explains why traditional monetary and fiscal maneuvers may prove impotent this time around! For an "Austrian" perspective of the current troubles, please check out Dr. Anderson's latest thinking at THE GILDED OPINION!







Belgian (11/6/01; 06:15:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 64799)
Hoi Invisible
Had LOL with your posting on (Nobel) Friet(d)man. He, as many others, are just "talking it up" (the economy).
So much analogy between global economy and the fate of SABENA (Belgian airline bankruptcy). Artificial employment for all these years (25) and money, sorry paper, vaporized, just for the sake of keeping it up (in the air). The restarting of a mini airline with lower paid staff in a global contraction environment, is not exactly, what we call, a gigantic relance of the economy. Flying around is an expensive activity and the efforts to populise it, failed dramatically. Price inflation as adjustment to permanent depreciation had to be prevented at all cost. And now the bill has come : 6.000 (or more) redundacies.
Friedman or not, other desasters will follow. Because they want all the butter and the money of the butter. Impossible !


Belgian (11/6/01; 05:38:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 64798)
The Trap !
Yep, again on the DEBT-TRAP. But this time with the zero-rate, double trap. Global contraction is the result of the strangulating debt that is being countered with cheap-cheaper, refinancing. All available money is sucked into this "huge" debt black hole. Totally unproductive in this complete mismanaged and overextended economy. It is of no use "anymore", to decrease the debt burden with the available easy money. The imbalance between debt and profit, went much too far. Debt must be repaid with profits and not wit easy money roll-overs (refinancing)or any other hokus pokus. If the global contraction doesn't stop and reverses, much more money will be made available, not to service debt, but to restart the economy. Getting the unemployed back on a job. And this amount of money will be huuuuuuuuuge.

It is an illusion to think that once the debt burden has been relieved to acceptable proportions, the economy and employment will quick start, automatically. Once, rates are permitted to reach that zero target, everyone has adjusted the japanese way. The cyclic momentum of expansion has been broken. Consumers and investors, who survived the prolonged contraction, went into a lower gear and feel comfortable in it that particular speed.

Could it be that we landed in this situation, because of the dollar being challenged by the euro ? The dollar, having a anti-euro policy and seduced to take the wrong decisions on the pure economic front ?


Christian (11/6/01; 04:34:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 64797)
(No Subject)
Government Sponsored Enterprises (GSEs) or also known as Federal Ageny Securities like the Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation are privatly owned chartered entities established by Congress just like the FED. GSE's offer greater spreads versus similar maturing U.S. Treasury Securities and have replaced the 30 year Treasury Securities.-----Central Banks stand ready to lease gold should the need arise = Central Banks owners stand ready to lease public's gold and the gold still in the ground should the need arise in order for them to buy it cheap to establish a world TRADE currency using e-gold. The Rothschilds through the LBMA operations they control, are cornering the world's gold supply for that very purpose. Greenspan is helping them. The idea is to enrich word trade with one common currency. This currency will not be used for paying your bills like income, property taxes or your other bills like power, phone, food, mortgage and credit card bills. EU economy like our economy will tank in order to usher in the NWO where each country's FED becomes the government. We are alredy basically there. Truth be told the FED is our government. We the people as voters may even loose the option to vote for the least evil canditate. Not much of a loss. I thought Bush was less evil then Gore but now wish Gore was president. Either way we are screwed.......We the poeple are monetized by our debt. A new form of financial slavery...

The Invisible Hand (11/6/01; 04:30:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 64796)
Euro, Yen, LTCM & Prodi
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,5-2001383974,00.html

Italy euro scheme revealed
BY GRAHAM SEARJEANT

THE European Union has said that it knew at the time that Italy had used one-off financial derivatives to help it to qualify to join the euro in 1997 but said that it did not matter. Romano Prodi, who had the benefit of the ruse as Italy's Prime Minister, but is now President of the EU, insisted that Italy had not cheated.

The admissions follow hints by an Italian economics professor that his country had financed spending by raising loans in Japanese yen in the mid-1990s to make it appear that it paid less interest than lire borrowing would cost. The yen were swapped into lire for the three-year length of the bond but the cost of buying the swap from an international bank did not need to be disclosed.

The yen bond was one element in a daring plan for Italy to halve its budget deficit to 3 per cent of output to meet the Maastricht tests for euro membership. A one-year euro tax was levied in 1997 on the promise of swift repayment.
The Bank of Italy was also a big backer of Long Term Capital Management (LTCM), the US hedge fund. LTCM bought Italian bonds on an heroic scale in derivatives deals, cutting the interest premium Italy had to pay.

Gustavo Piga used the unidentified yen loan story in a paper, Derivatives and Public Debt Management, for the International Securities Market Association (ISMA). It urges the EU or the European Central Bank to force disclosure of official derivatives deals to cut abuses. But the paper brought embarrassment. Professor Piga cried off a planned public launch today and the ISMA removed his paper from its website, where it had been displayed.


The Invisible Hand (11/6/01; 04:15:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 64795)
Italy hid true extent budget deficit to qualify for EMU
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,3604,588457,00.html
The allegations are particularly embarrassing for the (European) commission because at the time of the alleged breach in 1995 the current president of the European commission, Romano Prodi, was Italy's prime minister.

The Invisible Hand (11/6/01; 04:03:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 64794)
Greenspan Gets Friedman Seal of Approval
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011106/bs/economy_us_friedman_dc_1.html
ROME (Reuters) - Influential U.S. economist Milton Friedman believes Federal Reserve (news - web sites) Chairman Alan Greenspan (news - web sites) has made all the right monetary policy decisions since the Sept. 11 attacks and says the U.S. economy could even rebound soon.
Countering recent criticism of the Fed chairman, who has cut interest rates aggressively since the attacks and is poised to do so again on Tuesday, Nobel Prize winner Friedman said Greenspan had done the right thing.
``What he has done is without precedent (and) he has acted with anticipation,'' he told Il Sole 24 Ore newspaper in an interview published on Tuesday.
``He could even achieve his goal of a soft landing... The elements for a rebound are already there and maybe even in the second quarter of next year we will see the results,'' he said.
Friedman said the key to avoiding recession was pumping more dollars into circulation, which the Fed had done by buying bonds and other market operations. He estimated there had been a 10 percent increase in money supply since the start of the year.
``It's true that the unemployment rate could rise to 6.0-6.5 percent, but we shouldn't forget that unemployment is a lagging not a leading indicator of negative conditions. I don't think we'll hit 8.0 percent as in other recessions,'' he said.


Netking (11/6/01; 02:10:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 64793)
"We live in a silver museum" - Rosie Moore (Pan American Silver)
http://www.mips1.net/mgsb.nsf/Current/85256AF60011B8B285256AF900637730?OpenDocument
Snippet:
Why isn't silver as revered as gold for specimens, coins, jewelry, etc.?" After all, silver and gold share many distinctions. . .

So why don't we see museums full of silver specimens? The reason underlines the key difference between gold and silver. I heard someone say last week that all of the gold ever mined in human history, if melted down, would fit in a box 100 feet by 100 feet by 100 feet in size. The vast majority (well over 90 percent?) of this gold still exists and is highly cherished as valuable specimens, coins, jewelry and bullion.

In contrast, although the amount of silver mined throughout history is much larger; the vast majority of silver has been used. It has been literally consumed in a myriad of applications and is now gone. Only a small fraction of mined silver still exists as specimens, coins, jewelry, bullion etc. But silver plays a role in nearly every aspect of our daily lives. So in many respects, we live in a silver museum. . . "


Belgian (11/6/01; 01:39:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 64792)
@ Oro
Why are you stubbornly refusing to accept that the euro's aim is to achieve as much as possible "stability and growth" ? This political will, must be clear by now ?
Economic reality is also visible : emirates are buying airbuses, etc... ! And why should Russians hold dollars ? Moskou/Brussels, historical and natural links, have always been more evident than New York/Brussels.
A lot of emotions are there, still to be digested, for the changes to come on the euro and dollar as well.

Panda le Baron de Gold : Could it be that the Rothshild's and brotherhood, are positionning themselves with the yellow in anticipation of that tremendous dollar>>euro shift, in (slow) progress ?




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