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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 12/6/1999
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

View Yesterday's Discussion.

Chris Powell (12/6/99; 23:54:05MDT - Msg ID:20459)
GATA's ad campaign starts Thursday
http://www.egroups.com/group/gata/307.html?
An announcement and an appeal from
GATA Chairman Bill "Midas" Murphy.

Chris Powell (12/6/99; 23:53:19MDT - Msg ID:20458)
Central banks panic over gold
http://www.egroups.com/group/gata/306.html?
Reg Howe shows how the West's central banks
are panicking over gold and how the bad news
is really good news.

Bill (12/6/99; 23:29:57MDT - Msg ID:20457)
QUESTION TO FOA and/or ANYONE ELSE
QUESTION TO FOA and/or ANYONE ELSE

Hannibals have managed to press the POG down to nearly what it was before the announcement. By now, anyone in his right mind has to know the POG is manipulated. The natural price pressure would seem to be up. The ability to force the POG down much further doesn't seem likely. Any call options that were sold before Sep could be bought back now cheaper. If you were part of this manipulation. Would you not now liquidate your upside risk and reverse your position???? (now collecting profits on the way up). Unless the huge short positions have already been covered and from the constant manipulation, that doesn't seem likely. It would seem that a huge short covering rally could be gained as players don't want to be caught in the same position as Oct.

Thanks for your comments.

TownCrier (12/6/99; 23:17:03MDT - Msg ID:20456)
Dutch gold sales within Washington Agreement
http://www.gold.org/Gra/Pr/Gf991206.htm
News Release
World Gold Council

LONDON - 6 December 1999 - The decision by the Dutch central bank to sell 300 tonnes of gold over the next five years is within the terms of the Washington Agreement on Gold, announced by Wim Duisenberg, president of the ECB, on 26th September, and should not therefore be seen by the market as a disruptive factor.

The Washington Agreement stated that the 15 European central bank signatories would sell approximately 2,000 tonnes over five years to 2005. Switzerland has stated it intends selling 1,300 tonnes; the UK sold 50 tonnes before the Washington Agreement but intends selling 365 tonnes more; and with the announcement of sales of 300 tonnes by the Netherlands, the total declared sales amount to 1,965 tonnes, almost the entire quota.

The Dutch central bank has already sold 700 tonnes of gold in the 1990s and, following the proposed sales, will still be left with 712 tonnes of gold reserves, which the WGC calculates is 32 per cent of their total reserves. This figure is double the international average for gold reserves, which is 16.6 per cent.

"While the timing of the announcement by the Dutch central bank may have caused a ripple in the market, the substance of the news is not earth-shattering. Rather it clarifies the situation and may be seen as the final piece of the jigsaw. The price response to the announcement is an indication of just how bruised is the gold market, rather than any sign that the Dutch move is out of step with the Agreement," said Miss Haruko Fukuda, chief executive of the World Gold Council.

"The Washington Agreement specifically provides for declared official sellers of gold to participate in this orderly programme. The role of the Bank of International Settlements in handling the Dutch sale clarifies the manner in which the Agreement is being implemented, " she added.

The World Gold Council has ascertained from the Dutch central bank that it decided to sell this quantity of gold in July 1999, but held back from making its intentions known at that time in order to participate in the Washington Agreement.

One aspect of this arrangement, however, is that the European Central Bank, of which the Netherlands is a member, has control over the gold reserves of its individual member states. The ECB - which has 15 per cent of its reserves in gold - has a set of guidelines concerning transactions in gold and foreign exchange reserves by individual members, but these guidelines are not published. The WGC understands that the Dutch plan has received approval from the ECB.

"In the context of the Dutch announcement the WGC now calls upon the ECB to make public these guidelines, so that market participants can have full understanding of the rules and regulations governing the holding of European Union gold reserves," said Haruko Fukuda.

TownCrier (12/6/99; 22:54:10MDT - Msg ID:20455)
The GOLDEN VIEW from The Tower
Today's decline in gold price was certainly a knee-jerk reaction to the news that The Netherlands would sell 300 tonnes in five years, though the $3.40 drop in spot prices by day's end was comparatively tame when viewed against the recent Bank of England announcemnt, and the earlier Australian announcement of (much smaller) sales. It is likely that further time is all that traders need to more carefully conclude that this is a positive development for gold.
+
With the price having slid all last week, traders moods were in a funk and they weren't able to see this development clearly. When the Washington Agreement was just over two months ago, there was room for 300 tonnes in addition to what was already on the table. Now we know that that 2,000 tonne figure wasn't arbitrarily rounded up to an even 2K from the UK and Swiss potential sale allocations of 1,700. Finding out the details that the full remaining 300 tonnes would come from the Dutch Central Bank (as opposed to some other) was in itself distinctly a non-event...or at least should have been. However, the sketchy details provided of the method of their gold dispursal should have been seen as positve. Rather than bring in the full weight of the market in a public auction to help find enough takers for this gold (*cough, cough...wink*) they are content to let the Bank for International Settlements broker the sale behind the scenes and without any pre-sale publicity. That speaks of a calm confidence in the ability of get adequate attractive bidders without any effort put into seeking them out. Please see our morning post "(12/6/99; 11:05:05MDT - Msg ID:20414) Dutch central bank to keep dates of gold sales secret" for more on this issue.

Reinventing the IMF...again??

Anyone who has a nose for history knows that the IMF was originally created out of the agreements from the 1944 conference at Bretton Woods, New Hampshire in which the dollar would be held to a guaranteed convertible value of $35 per ounce of gold and all other currencies would adopt par values that they would hold within a tight range of fluctuation of 1%. It was the task of the IMF to facilitate these stable exchange rates through such things as loans if a nation ran into balance of trade difficulties. When an excess of dollar-production and subsequent calls for conversion by internationals holding excess dollars threatened to bankrupt the U.S. Treasury, President Nixon in August of 1971 closed the "gold exchange window" at the Treasury, at once putting the U.S. in default on its payments, and also laying waste to the IMF's specific mandates.
+
But like any government agency, evolution can occur quite rapidly to adapt to changing times. Here we had a complete abandonment of the gold standard of the Bretton Woods agreements, and yet the offspring of Bretton Woods, the IMF, found a new niche and is still with us. Is another significant change of the currency structure in the works? Reuters reports that the IMF may be in the beginning phases of another transformation, saying that the United States is taking a close look at the International Monetary Fund which drew sharp criticism for its rescue efforts throughout the Asian contagion. Deputy Treasury Secretary Stuart Eizenstat told reporters "We believe, at this period of relative calm in the international financial situation, that this is a time to begin to look at a variety of options with respect to further reforms of the IMF. We have come to no conclusions at this point, but this is something that we will be looking at further and elaborating on over the coming months." And further, The Wall Street Journal reported that the Treasury was prepared to propose "significant changes to the way the IMF operates, streamlining its lending programs and concentrating on emergency programs for countries in trouble." As we recently pointed out in remarks by the IMF Managing Director, Michel Camdessus stated that going forward the IMF would work with the World Bank to put much emphasis on relieving the plight of heavily indebted poor countries. It stands to reason that the IMF would be reinventing itself and its niche/mission if the global financial architecture is in the midst of a major retooling. On that note, the euro surged out of its recent slump, gaining an almost unheard of 2� from its previous close against the dollar, now at $1.0224.

Returning to the day's market action in gold, as we said at the top, spot shed $3.40 in a bout of confusion selling by traders that will sure to be looked back on as a prime buying opportunity. Barring an unforseen and unlikely renewal of massive shorting interest, what is left to surprise to the downside and weigh heavily on gold? The euro seems to have regained its footing, and banking industry is primarily concerned with going that extra painful mile to give the impression that there is no monetary worries ahead of Y2K. If part of that effort is to maintain a strong dollar and a relatively weak gold price, brother, we'll take it. The clamps will surely come undone soon enough.Spot ended the day at $275.70 in NY. We'll take a look in at the FWN report to see what they were saying and thinking in the Comodities Exchange...

NY Precious Metals Review: Gold dn $3.90 on Dutch sale news
By Cristine Denver, Bridge News
New York--Dec 6--COMEX Feb gold futures settled down $3.90 at $278.20
per ounce after hitting a fresh 2-month low of $276.20. Gold came under
pressure following news overnight that the Dutch central bank intends to
sell 100 tonnes of gold next year and 300 tonnes in total over the next 5
years. Gold tumbled overnight on the Dutch news, falling to
its lowest level in just over 2 months. It initially bounced back somewhat
in European trade, but fell again as NY players reacted to the news amid
some early puzzlement about how the latest European official gold sale fit
in with an earlier European central bank gold sale scheme.

The European Central Bank, 13 EU central banks and the Swiss National
Bank released a statement in September to clarify their positions on their
gold reserves. The statement said that annual sales will not exceed
approximately 400 tonnes and that total sales over a period of 5 years
will not exceed 2,000 tonnes. [see "The Dawn of a New Gold Market" in the USAGOLD Gilded Opinion for more on this Washington Agreement]

The Dutch central bank said the sales were in accordance with the
agreement of the European system of central banks. The central bank will
not announce to the market when it will actually sell the gold although
the sales should be easily monitored through the European Central Bank's
regular release of its balance sheet.

The World Gold Council also issued a statement saying that the Dutch
plan is within the terms of the Washington Agreement on Gold and should
not be seen by the market as a disruptive factor.

The Dutch bank has already sold 700 tonnes of gold in the 1990s and
will be left with 712 tonnes of gold reserves after the proposed sales.
Switzerland has already said it will sell 1,300 tonnes, while the UK
sold 50 tonnes before the Washington agreement was announced and plans to
sell a further 365 tonnes.
Although analysts stressed that the news really only gave a name to
the central bank seller that would fill in the gap left by the UK and the
Swiss, [hey, that's what we said! ;-)] the market remains vulnerable to news about central bank selling.
Concerns about central bank selling and lending have been a major factor
in gold's prolonged weakness, traders said.

One other negative about the latest announcement is the fact that the
Dutch will not announce the timing of its sales in advance. [Noooo...as we explained earlier, the whole terms-of-sale package is a positive thing.]
Given that the Dutch have indicated that, unlike the UK, they will not
announce to the market when they will sell gold, the potential for Dutch
gold sales introduces considerable uncertainty into the market. Selling
into the market "at their whim" will benefit the Dutch, but it will dent
sentiment in the gold market, said LFG Billion Services chief bullion
dealer Leonard Kaplan.
"Anyone who is long will assume that the Dutch will sell into any
rallies," he said.

[But Lenny, if they sell through the BIS as an earlier report indicated, this won't exactly be hitting the streets to flood your feet(s) in gold. Spread the word...nothing to fear.]

Even without the Dutch news, gold most likely would have declined
Monday, as the market appears to be going through a long liquidation
phase, said David Meger, senior metals analyst with Alaron Trading.
Although it was not so much the case today, the strong dollar of late
has made gold and other dollar-denominated commodities more expensive in
other countries, which leaves the market lacking in support in terms of
physical demand, he said.
[Boy, I dunno about that Dave...if this $3-$4 drop was the worst gold could do on news that seemed instantly bad to the casual observer, The Tower would have to conclude that the weakness has fully run its course. Look out above.]
***
(c) Copyright 1999 FWN Reprinted at USAGOLD with permission. For details please go to:
http://www.futuresource.com/internet.shtml
No further reproduction without written permission from FWN.
---
COMEX open interest after friday's trading fell 258 to leave 2,724 positions open on the December futures. Delivery intentions announced today totaled 148 contracts (the receiving end led by Goldman Sachs@78 and Deutsche Bank@58.) Helping to satisfy today's demand for this intended delivery of 14,800 ounces, our monitors at the COMEX vaults reported that half that figure, 7,148 ounces, were added to the registered COMEX gold inventory. So far for the month of December, 6,406 delivery intentions in total have been announced...requiring that 640,600 ounces will have to change hands by month's end.

OIL

Crude was off to the races, fetching $26.66 for January delivery, up 85� on the day. Coming as no surprise (we mentioned this on Friday) Iraq rejected the UN's Friday resolution to extend the previous oil-for-food program for one week.

And finally, here's a helpful reminder that you don't have to risk you money in internet stocks to be a milliionaire...taken from Bridge News

NYMEX chairman Rappaport's record $1.5 mln bonus raises eyebrows
"New York--Dec 6--NYMEX Chairman Daniel Rappaport's $1.5 million annual
bonus, approved last week by the exchange's board of directors, has surprised
the trading community and drawn criticism from some who call the amount
excessive. The bonus is the largest in NYMEX history and nearly double the
$850,000 Rappaport got last year. In an interview with Bridge News, Rappaport
defended his compensation." [Yeah, but on what grounds? Or do they mean he defended it, like...with a broken beer bottle?]

Wow. If that's the Bonus, we wonder what his Salary is?

And that's the view from here...after the close.

Peter Asher (12/6/99; 21:51:37MDT - Msg ID:20454)
Netking
http://www.kitco.com/gold.graph.html
Look again! That looks like a 300 ton, bad news bottom curve to me.

Netking (12/6/99; 21:43:31MDT - Msg ID:20453)
Volatility
Gold - POG Appears to bouncing around all over today. I guess we will expect this for a while until a new direction kicks in & we see a change in the Comex commercials positions.

Leigh & The Scot - Hello ladies. Thinking of y'all in isolation! With regards to 'Y2K' Why 2K? ...2,000 years since what? Food for thought!

The Scot (12/6/99; 21:33:38MDT - Msg ID:20452)
Lady Leigh
Well said, I couln't agree with you more.
Back to my self-imposed exile.
The Scot

lamprey_65 (12/6/99; 21:09:06MDT - Msg ID:20451)
The Dollar
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/991206/bb3.html
How about that dollar today? OUCH! found the above link on the Yahoo NEM board:

HK to raise euro holdings on US market worries

What a surprise...NOT!

Lamprey

beesting (12/6/99; 20:17:26MDT - Msg ID:20450)
3 different things.
http://www.kitco.com/_a/news/3591.htm
Good job Sir dragonfly #20441
In my opinion this unfolding drama concerning; Princton Economics(Martin Armstrong) Republic National Bank,(HSBC)Hong Kong Shanghai Banking Corp, and now the Federal Reserve Banking System has more twists and turns then a James Bond Movie.
By the way, the person that issues the press releases for HSBC real name is JOHN BOND!!!(don't know his actual title.)
HSBC has offices in 79 countries. I would presume a MAJOR player in the worldwide Gold trade,along with their many other trades known and unknown. With electronic money at their fingertips, Gold at their front-steps, drugs at their back-steps, the U.S. Federal Reserve System in their back pocket......It makes me a little nervous about the implications.....Think about it....whoever controls the worlds money flow....controls the world...shiver...shiver.
Am I over-reacting???

Second thing:
Gold Fields' offer given the go ahead by St Helena shareholders today 12/5/99. Above URL. St Helena is now part of Gold Fields. Gold Fields (NYSE GOLD) produces about 4 million ounces of Gold annually. Along with Anglogolds 7 million ounces(these are the guys that bought Gold at the BOE auctions) total annual production 342 tonnes estimated or over 1/8th of all the annual Gold production in the world.

Third thing:
Thought for the day;
It took Governments(CB's) over 2000 years to acquire their wealth(Gold) from the people! Working,buying,together,WE THE PEOPLE have been given this Golden opportunity to re-acquire what is rightfully ours. Even if it takes 40 years!!! Those in the know---BUY GOLD!!!.....beesting.

beesting (12/6/99; 20:15:49MDT - Msg ID:20449)
3 different things.
http://www.kitco.com/_a/news/3591.htm
Good job Sir dragonfly #20441
In my opinion this unfolding drama concerning; Princton Economics(Martin Armstrong) Republic National Bank,(HSBC)Hong Kong Shanghai Banking Corp, and now the Federal Reserve Banking System has more twists and turns then a James Bond Movie.
By the way, the person that issues the press releases for HSBC real name is JOHN BOND!!!(don't know his actual title.)
HSBC has offices in 79 countries. I would presume a MAJOR player in the worldwide Gold trade,along with their many other trades known and unknown. With electronic money at their fingertips, Gold at their front-steps, drugs at their back-steps, the U.S. Federal Reserve System in their back pocket......It makes me a little nervous about the implications.....Think about it....whoever controls the worlds money flow....controls the world...shiver...shiver.
Am I over-reacting???

Second thing:
Gold Fields' offer given the go ahead by St Helena shareholders today 12/5/99. Above URL. St Helena is now part of Gold Fields. Gold Fields (NYSE GOLD) produces about 4 million ounces of Gold annually. Along with Anglogolds 7 million ounces(these are the guys that bought Gold at the BOE auctions) total annual production 342 tonnes estimated or over 1/8th of all the annual Gold production in the world.

Third thing:
Thought for the day;
It took Governments(CB's) over 2000 years to acquire their wealth(Gold) from the people! Working,buying,together,WE THE PEOPLE have been given this Golden opportunity to re-acquire what is rightfully ours. Even if it takes 40 years!!! Those in the know---BUY GOLD!!!.....beesting.

Just Weight & Measures (12/6/99; 20:11:50MDT - Msg ID:20448)
as Steve H said,
"But for the major central banks of the world, the fundamental task is to protect their own nation's monetary sovereignty." Their actions to buy or sell bullion must be seen in this light.

Just Weight & Measures (12/6/99; 19:53:25MDT - Msg ID:20447)
CB & their gold sales
Central Banks act to support the currency of their bosses. Getting the best value for the gold they sell is secondary to supporting their respective paper currencies. A significant increase in the value of AU would expose the paper game, and cause a flight out of paper (which we are incidentally already seeing with the increases in the stock market).

Government's power is directly connected to their fiat (by decree) ability to create paper which is threatened by gold. Central banks acting in the best interests of their governments naturally act to keep the price of gold down in order to maintain confidence in their paper money.

thought?

FOA (12/6/99; 19:46:00MDT - Msg ID:20446)
Reply
ORO (12/5/99; 21:42:51MDT - Msg ID:20366)
FOA - Questions & a bit more
http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/Nebucadnezer/importvolume2.gif
FOA - All of this started the "new era" of a negative US balance of trade deficit. No ORO, it didn't show up on the official money flows because the US did send the dollars out. BUT!!!,,, they didn't record the trade on the negative side as the """gold loan"""" it really was!

I understand this. I understand that the gold obligations were not listed on the debit side of the US books. Specifically avoided was any entry of gold loans or anything containing references to it. Indeed the job of maintaining dollar - gold relationships has been a G7 and Oil country effort, and the bulk of it occurred in London with the participation of US creditors aiming to get something, for
the nothing (i.e. dollars) the US so happily issued them in payment. From the days of the London Gold Pool, to the spot markets of the 69-74 period, to the hybrid paper markets from then to 1980, and the mostly paper markets of the early 80s, and now the wholly paper markets ruling since.
To make one point about CB behaviour, the modern CB is accustomed to controlling the economy through the dictation of short term interest rates. A number of CBs work in concert to attempt getting the right balance. If a currency is to be weak, the interest rates are lowered, using the higher interest rate at the country, who's currency was to strengthen, to produce capital flows from the weakening to the strengthening one. Gold has been manoeuvred in this way as well. Low interest rates have caused a carry trade in gold without the CB doing significant lending. The CB offers
guarantees of liquidity - a promise to put its gold at risk, not directly putting the gold in harm's way. The issuance of calls, particularly currency settled ones in which the CB is not limited as to quantity, serves as a proxy for lending. But in this "foolproof" plan there is a snag, the abundance of currency settled gold calls issued can endanger the currency by creating a currency pump - a Buffet style
convertible bond with no floor for conversion - that can pump unlimited currency into the market in a death spiral. The Fed is repeatedly rumoured, now by more specific people, to have manipulated gold in "emergency situations" using either currency or gold settled gold calls.

FOA, do you know if the Fed is indeed issuing these calls, if so, do you have any idea of how much? Order of magnitude? ---------------------------

ORO, you are making nice orderly posts. They are slowly putting the whole act on stage for everyone to understand! Good stuff!

To your question: To the best of my knowledge, they are not! I'm 95% certain none of the independent (or dependent) fed branches are using their desk's to create (write) gold calls! ORO, the fact of the matter is that there are big people out there that would risk billions in loses, just to
grab a bunch of these and call for the contracts! They would do it, not as goldbugs, but just to expose an action such as this.
No, it's the BBs that carry the political load on this venue. They write whatever amount of contracts they want, mostly on the OTC. They can do it because just as the fed has the franchise to print money, the BBs can print gold. As long as the price is moved where needed, official CBs stayed
out of their marketplace. The private / public demand usage of derivatives (paper) gold could never move the price against them. It's that simple.
Actually, the risk has been building against the BBs for three or four years as the buildup to Euro launch was giving off warning signs. London, LBMA and IMF/US have owned the gold market from the get go. And they ramped up the drive for lower gold to benefit the dollar and dollar/oil settlement deals. Everyone, including Europe was pulling for the same outcome until someone saw the risk that the Euro was aligned with the Old World BIS. You see, only the BIS could destroy the present gold game because they represented the ability to price and move physical gold independently of london. Literally, off market (today's dutch deal??). It's in their charter.

Most of the time, they go with the flow, but today, they are aligned with the principals of the WA. Guess which oil producer is a big member of the BIS? When Big Trader (Chinese Central Bank) wants to be closer to the Euro, guess where the BIS opens an office? Get the picture? We are walking a different trail today.

Your other items:--------However, there are still these questions from my studies: How large is the Eurodollar market? (I have a current accounts based estimate of 21-24 $trillions in loans outstanding) -----------
ORO, it could be twice that big? This is another tanker of gasoline to throw on the fire. Most American gold bugs are waiting for some event to drive their people into gold. Yet, when it comes to moving physical gold, a run from the Eurodollar alone could take every thing offered at a huge
price. I absolutely know that modern gold analyst are lost as to how leveraged the world's physical gold is. It's mind boggling!

----------Does gold play any part in supporting the Eurodollar markets? I have seen the proportions of goods traded for dollars rise tremendously, as the productivity of the emerging market nations has risen but the number of dollars received for their production has not risen in proportion. The $ debt machine has been run by Europe and Japan to shift the cost of maintaining the US onto Emerging Market economies. Whereas the purchasing power of the dollar
in the Emerging Markets rose tremendously, the major foreign currencies - those of Europe and Japan, have enjoyed a 90% higher increase in their purchasing power vs. the Emerging Markets -relative to that of the dollar. This allows both Europe and Japan to increase their import volumes even more than the US, without even showing the slightest disadvantage in the balance of payments. I believe that this is the reason that Europe and Japan maintained the value of the dollar as long as they have. Now that the Emerging markets have buckled under this debt and are in the process of repayment, and the carry trades are breaking apart, there is no way to obtain any advantage out of it.

FOA, was this an intended occurrence, or was the crisis just one expected by the BIS? I seem to have found some indications that it was intentional.---------------

I think it was intended and driven in the direction that would eventually benefit the Euro. For one, China and most of Asia were taking so much gold that it threatened the pre Euro drive to hold gold down. The flow of physical became unstoppable. Stories that some large traders were calling
contracts and shipping through Hong Kong. Acting as pipeline for the China CB.
The dishording of private Western gold in lieu of derivatives was barely keeping a lid on this demand. All of a sudden, sweeping changes were made for collateral requirements through out the region. Business with the western world (and Europe) now required more reserves. It was hard to see this in the confusion of currency devaluation's and bank loses, but the overtones were present. It was if someone knew that one gentle nudge would kill two birds with one stone.
The IMF was known to be politically inadequate in dealing with the different cultural valuations of assets in this arena. Sure enough, they blew up everything they touched and turned what was a dollar debt power keg into a mushroom cloud. Today, the Euro salesmen are all over the place. Oh, and as a side note, gold demand was killed just long enough for the Euro to come onstream.

------However, The mechanism, like the Gold mechanism is a carry trade, an interest rate driven engine that forces itself to stall, i.e. Long $/short Yen trades have gotten so out of hand, that the slightest rise in Japanese interest rates would crash the system. A similar situation is close to being reached in the $/Euro trades.

FOA, was this the intent of the interest rate manoeuvres of the last few years on the part of both Japan and the EU?-----------

It was the BIS that rammed home the new capital requirements that they knew Japan's system could not live with. And Japan has been on a down fall ever sense. Any country that has 0% interest and a strong currency is a nation where assets are failing to pay their return. Cash becomes the most valuable item because local contract law requires Yen for settlement. Everyone looks at these people and comments on how rich they are. Yet, they are rich, not in Yen, but in non-functioning assets. The Yen is going even higher because of this and that will further kill their
economy. Kill the "rising sun" and you remove one of the largest supporters of the dollar!

True, Euroland is somewhat a closed system like Japan, but they have everything they need. Oil is their only weak link and I think you know what that story is. I don't know about the Euro carry trade yet. Too young of a market still.

ORO Something is in the works, got to go. More tomorrow. Thanks FOA

Finally, a rush of questions to you; how inclusive is the BIS group? Overtures were made to China,
Malaysia (included for a fact), and many other Asian nations. Is India included or being pursued?
South American countries are being wooed by both the US and the Euro faction. Do you see the
mangy US offer of major participation in seigniorage being preferred to the Euro side's "fair money"
offer? Are the BIS group members succeeding in recruiting South American participants?

A few more charts:
http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/Nebucadnezer/Exportchainquantity.gif

http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/Nebucadnezer/Importchainquantity.gif

http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/Nebucadnezer/g3802701800417345.gif

http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/Nebucadnezer/Quantity trade Deficit1.gif

YGM (12/6/99; 19:35:36MDT - Msg ID:20445)
Just Ramblin Along with the Flow....
Pay Now...Pay More Later.....
Bill............I could suggest that the Gold Cabal, the Y2K Denial Experts, the Dollar/Dow/NASD Plunge Protection Team, CB's and Bankers PR Firms, Fed and the Polly-Anna Talking Heads of CNBC Markets Reports will keep up the "FRONT" until the Second Domino falls.......YGM.

Nightrider...........Timing is as we all know it to be......the real test of money making abitity in Markets...that means selling too...Time was, is and will be when paper again isn't worth the paper or the ink...Time will be when Gold, Silver, & Platinum will be the measure of wealth earned and stored...That historic to be time seems more than ever close at hand...I for now feel better with Gold not yet mined than paper anything...maybe next year I'll think about it again as a second income...Paper for Cash, Cash for Gold, is MY sense of Security...Whatever owned to hold wealth whether land, gold or paper, if owned not owed it stores wealth...The Times They are a Changin (said BOB)
"Gold is to be believed in, much like Knowledge".......YGM

Farfel....Gold's not hopeless, people are....People are also very predictable....I have time to wait for both Gold and hopeless predictable people and the actions they'll take too late....Gold balances my scales of REAL Uncertainty and REAL Wealth........I also have Time and Patience for GATA to make its effects felt more painfully and often..........YGM

Ray Patten (12/6/99; 19:27:13MDT - Msg ID:20444)
Y2K reality in today's Chicago Tribune!!
Edward Yardeni, CIO Magazine and the Information Systems Audit and Control Association, a trade group for professionals working on quality control in the computer world, have done a June, September and November survey of members. The 1200 Chief Information Officers report as follows:

1. 34% believe the power grid will fail. That's down from 39% in September.

2. 33% expect glitches in their "critical" systems after the first of the year. That's an improvement of only 1% from September.

3. 57% said they were still working on their Y2K problems.

4. Only 31% were far enough along to have actually tested contingency plans.

The Tribune actually gave these facts a positive spin.

I'm looking in the yellow pages for a place to buy a bomb shelter.

PH in LA (12/6/99; 18:54:30MDT - Msg ID:20443)
To Farfel. (Also a question for FOA)
"Same old, same old"?

It doesn't look like that to me!

Used to be that CB sales were carried out in secrecy and only announced after the fact. This was the pattern with Argentina, Australia, Belgium, Canada, and God only knows who else. Most of us were left shaking our heads in wonder when gold would collapse on the announcement of yet another sale already consumated. Sales were kept secret in those days to get the best price for the sellers .

Now the pattern is very different indeed. Sales are pre-announced, complete with schedule and timetable. The BOE engineers a pseudo-sale that guarantees the lowest price for seller and buyer. (What kind of seller desires the lowest possible price, anyway?) Large allotments for lease are announced in advance (Kuwait). Even mere deliveries are announced as sales, again before the fact (today's announcement of a Dutch sale). No pretense of a true market is maintained anymore. Now, only time is bargained for. Yet anyone can see that this game cannot be won. It can only be delayed.

Yes, Farfel, the impression that emerges is of desperation. But the desperation is no longer ours. The CBs (on both sides) appear to have been shocked at the market's reaction to the Washington Agreement announcement. They have now slammed on the brakes. Reg Howe's question begs for an answer here. Has the fed been selling options on the US Treasury's Fort Knox gold? FOA, do you know the answer?

In any case, it now appears that the present danger is that the POG will not be contained by a "slow" burn, but will literally explode leaving no avenue for control for the CBs (who after all, do own the largest gold hoards in the world). The derivitive house of cards built up by the LBMA threatens to collapse in a shambles. War has been declared. The first canonades have already been fired. Like FOA says today, hostilities have come out into the open.

No Farfel, this does not seem like the "same old, same old" to me at all. In fact, we now see that the old words of Another are finally coming true. The gold market is truly "not as before". (Where is LGB when we need him, anyway?) No, this is hardly the moment to throw in the towel. Although in a different way than LGB, you also made a spectacle of yourself long ago with your "I don't care, I'm buying more" and your "short squeeze, short squeeze" mantras. And it really doesn't matter at all what you "predicted many times on this forum these past few months". For your own sake, stop and think this time! Listen to FOA! Don't drop the ball again! This time it's going to count. The game has finally started. It's for real now.

Peter Asher (12/6/99; 18:49:53MDT - Msg ID:20442)
AEL
Re your >>>> No. Much as I can't stand theGovernment(probably more than
you), the blame for censorship can hardly be laid exclusively at it's feet, as has been very abundantly illustrated by the sort of media manipulations that we've seen in recent years.<<<<

I was using the dictionary definition of censorship, which includes the fact that it is an act of an Official. We now have a colloquial meaning of this word which is applied to selective reporting, news blackouts, spin doctoring, ad nauseam.

The point is that Stranger was not removed from posting because of the critique content of his message, that was, nevertheless, in the package. Criticizing the action as censorship is a perfect example of how the media lies with the truth.

I'll demonstrate. >>>>The Stranger was deprived of his posting privileges on the Forum, after submitting a missive that disagreed with the theories of one of the site owner's favorite posters.<<<

The statement as written is true, but it does not tell the truth of what happened. It is easy to lie by telling some of the truth about something. All you have to do is omit the part that tells the piece of the truth that is critical to what people will think about the incident.

Many of the complainants focused on the true fact that a post with critical content was deleted, but that was not WHY it was deleted.

dragonfly (12/6/99; 18:44:46MDT - Msg ID:20441)
HongKong and Shanghai Corporation
beesting - some research for you
Some excerpts from "Dope, Inc." and EIR might assist you in your quest.

"Not a dozen years would pass from the signing of the Treaty of Nanking before the British Crown would precipitate its Second Opium War against China, with similar disastrous consequences for the Chinese and with similar monumental profits for London's drug-pushers. Out of the Second Opium War (1858-1860), the British merchant banks and trading companies established the Hongkong and Shanghai Corporation, which to this day serves as the central clearinghouse for all Far Eastern financial transactions relating to the black market in opium and its heroin derivative." (Dope,Inc 1979)

...the Hongkong and Shanghai Bank was denied a banking license in New York State because it failed to refute Dope, Inc.'s charge of massive involvement in the drug traffic. New York Banking Superintendent Muriel Siebert refused to permit the HongShang to purchase control of New York's Marine Midland Bank in 1979, delaying what was, until then, the largest foreign takeover plan in American banking history. She demanded detailed accounting of the HongShang's hidden profits, silent subsidiaries, and paraphernalia of money-laundering, and refused its application when the Hong Kong institution refused. HongShang was compelled to employ a subterfuge - ultimately sanctioned by Paul Volcker's Federal Reserve Board - in order to consummate the takeover: It arranged for Marine Midland Bank, one of America's largest, to change its status from a state-chartered to a nationally chartered bank, in order to circumvent the regulatory powers of New York State. The Federal Reserve accepted the takeover of Marine Midland in 1980." (EIR Jan 15, 1985)

The big picture involves the required mechanisms necessary to handle the flow of estimated wholesale proceeds of somewhere between 200 - 500 billion $ per year. Gold and diamonds appear in the story as well as many familiar names.

Another great source of info in this area is Alfred McCoy's well-detailed book "Politics of Heroin".

See ya,
dragonfly

SteveH (12/6/99; 18:28:19MDT - Msg ID:20440)
for megatron
www.kitco.com
your answer, I believe (from Don Hays):

Six months ago, when the Fed had started trying
to remove some of their excess money creation from the previous year's
Russia/LTCM crisis, the stock market had shown very weak signs. In the
wake of today's partying, most of your probably don't remember the panic
that caused, but the S&P 500 fell from 1418 to 1247 ( 12% ) , and the NASDAQ
Composite fell from 2864 to 2688 as the "free lunch" was removed. Our
psychology composite picked up that panic of October 15, 1999, and
evidently so did Mr. Greenspan's tentacles.

Peter Asher (12/6/99; 18:25:54MDT - Msg ID:20439)
Leigh (12/6/99; 17:13:54MDT - Msg ID:20430)
What I love about Leigh is her ability to really lay on the chastisement without being offensive.

Stick around Milady, I told you half a year ago, these guys need a sargent at arms.

SteveH (12/6/99; 18:20:59MDT - Msg ID:20438)
repost
www.kitco.com
from www.goldensextant.com:

Date: Mon Dec 06 1999 19:41
surfer (Golden Sextant) ID#144296:
Copyright � 1999 surfer/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
December 7, 1999. P A N I C !

Western central banks are in panic mode. No other interpretation can be put on the announcement yesterday of further Dutch gold sales of 300 metric tons. European central bankers should have spent last weekend preparing to announce gold purchases and a Euro truly independent of the dollar. Instead, they used the time to cobble together another bailout for the Fed, the Bank of England and the mostly Anglo-American bullion banks sinking, or so it would appear, into ever deeper trouble.

The Dutch announcement basically uses up all the slack left in the Washington Agreement, which provided for central bank gold sales of 2000 tons over the next five years, including 1300 tons by the Swiss and the 365 tons then remaining in the planned British disposals of 415 tons, leaving only 335 tons of possible additional sales. That gap has now been almost entirely filled by the Dutch.

The gold banking crisis that unfolded rapidly in the wake the Washington Agreement on September 26, 1999, has resulted in some rather unusual gold disposals. First, Kuwait announced publicly that it was making its entire official reserves of 79 tons available for lease through the BOE. Not long afterwards, it was revealed that Jordan had sold 10 tons from its official reserves of 26 tons. This depletion of long held official gold reserves by two Middle Eastern nations easily subjected to Anglo-American pressure pretty much speaks for itself, particularly when followed by disclosure of additional U.S. military spending for Kuwait. What is more, a rumor -- quickly denied -- of a possible reduction or halt in British gold sales caused an immediate almost $10 spike in the gold price.

The Dutch announcement itself is notable in three respects: ( 1 ) the sales will be arranged through the BIS, no public auctions for the Dutch; ( 2 ) nevertheless, the sales were publicly announced in advance, not a smart way to get the best price especially on the first year's planned sales of 100 tons; and ( 3 ) the Dutch emphasized that even after the sale "the Netherlands will remain a significant gold holding country with a gold stock of more than 700 tons."

In fact, the Dutch gold sale may be no more than an advance on the proposed Swiss sales. The Swiss have been slow to complete all necessary preparations for their sales, which were probably intended, inter alia, to provide the European safety valve on the gold market. Certainly the Netherlands could repurchase whatever gold it sells now from Switzerland later, and it may well have already received some assurances on this point.

Central bankers are generally a clubby and prudent sort, not given to unnecessary risk taking. But for the major central banks of the world, the fundamental task is to protect their own nation's monetary sovereignty. Given the uncertainties of the Y2K changeover, Anglo-American and European central bankers may have arrived at an informal truce or agreement designed to push resolution of the gold banking crisis into the new year. In this connection, it would not be surprising to see Anglo-American intervention in support of the Euro should it threaten to break below parity. Indeed, if the European central bankers did not obtain a commitment of this sort as a condition of the Dutch gold sale, they should all be fired.

But make no mistake: the day of reckoning is rapidly drawing near for both the Euro and the bullion banks. The EMU and the ECB cannot provide further gold to the market without not just destroying their own credibility, but also undermining the whole notion of the Euro as a truly independent currency and alternative to the dollar. As for the bullion banks and their protectors at the Fed and the BOE, they must know that they cannot count on others to bail them out forever. Ultimately there can be no lender of last resort in a gold banking crisis.

Bonedaddy (12/6/99; 17:45:45MDT - Msg ID:20437)
Farfel that was Great!
I loved your post. But, it is difficult to know your exact inflection from the written word. I've often been told that I see things from an unusual slant. From my point of view, you seemed to decry the cowardice of those who refuse to stand firm in their convictions on gold. You are absolutely correct! People lose freedom for the same reasons. And a society loses regard for morality when they can no longer remember why a good name is more precious than jewels. Then, the weak lose respect for fighting men when no enemies are in evidence. To me, and I suspect many others around this table, gold in part, represents all of these virtues and more. Financial freedom, moderation, and defence against infation, gold is all of these things. GOLD IS THE CURRENCY OF COURAGE! One of the best lines I ever read came from Louis L'Amore: "He was the kind, that when you got into trouble, you didn't have to look around to see if he was still with you. You just knew damn well he was!" That is gold. You don't have to look around to see if it's still money. (I'm still buyin')

Crossroads (12/6/99; 17:45:37MDT - Msg ID:20436)
(No Subject)
Coin Guy, no question about it�Yammering was a poor choice. All of that should have been left off. No intention of ridiculing meant. My apologies for the offense. Never will be a way to overcome the divisions that are created by ill chosen words. Criticism well taken. Hopefully Mike won't pull the plug before the coals cool down over this one.

As to the mention of his name�.read this post and tell me again how many times it appears today.
AEL (12/6/99; 10:49:23MDT - Msg ID:20412)
followups

Canuck Gold (12/5/99; 14:27:20MDT - Msg ID:20327): "In the interest
of fairness, if anyone wants to see The Stranger's last offensive
post before MK cut him off, send me an eMail at..."

FOA (12/6/99; 17:43:49MDT - Msg ID:20435)
Comment
TownCrier,
Thanks for all of your good coverage. Earlier today I noted that this Dutch gold sale could end up being no more than a " "transfer" off the open market". Your Msg ID:20414 is telling the world this same story. This is an exciting "block buster" item as it is the first "official" move by Euroland after the WA (Washington Agreement) that confirms their direction. By having the BIS move this gold they are avoiding giving LBMA and it's paper market any more credibility. In fact, one may see this as starving them. I think this gold will end up in the ECB or be held there for the account of Kuwait.
This falls back to the heart of my post (one of many) on the Sat.4th. The stronghold of the Dollar / IMF faction is being broken by establishing gold's value through "official channels". If they gravitate from using derivatives to establish price, the ECB / BIS will eventually create a two value market. The IMF revaluation of gold without selling it is the groundbreaking for this.
In the past (70s), we had an official price much lower than the so called free market price. Confirmation to the gold bugs that we are in a new era, will be when the ECB official price is higher that the "discounted" (read that failing) London fix! Of course we are not there yet, but, politically we have been moving in this direction from the first of the year.

I'm making a long post for ORO now, so will be back later.

Thanks TC, good work! FOA

Mr Gresham (12/6/99; 17:42:19MDT - Msg ID:20434)
Fed actions
So many responses occurred to me while reading yesterday's/this morning's posts, but then I had to hit the road. The main points formulating while driving I wanted to share and clear my thoughts (and I know much of this has been stated in various ways before):

I picture the Fed -- the main entity charged with preserving the worldwide status of the dollar -- as having a limited number of tricks up its sleeve, or "arrows in its quiver."

We know it sees gold as the barometer of its success/failure at that mission. It is fighting the monetary wars on several fronts but the front against gold is one that can be maintained with a fairly small expenditure compared to some others. So why would it NOT do this?

And, given that it considers itself a sustainer of the "public interest" (the banking system is oh-so-public when it is in peril!), the Fed feels free to use the public's money and credit to fight that battle. Talk about bang for the buck, when private players like GS can hitch a ride on the Fed/Treasury's use of taxpayer revenues!

And even though you're fighting gold with OPM -- Other People's Money (Hey! The Pyramids were built with Other People's Sweat -- worked then, works now!) -- to keep the credit bubble alive, until you see how next year plays out, you as Fed Chairman feel justified and responsibly doing your job.

Goldhearts, on the other hand, have to bet their own hard-earned moulah, until either the public says "No More!", or there IS no more public money weighing in against them. Not very fair, eh?

So last year the Fed told Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae to fire up the home loan and re-fi markets to head off the LTCM collapse -- Tice gave those numbers. This year, it's Special Liquidity Facility, backing lesser debt instruments with repos, and the big Daddy apparently, the options for $464 billion in the Dec. 27-Jan 10 timeframe.

As I understand it, and could use some help TownCrier and Oro, this is basically putting a floor under the debt market for participating institutions to sell their debt at a guaranteed price, even if the debt instrument market has otherwise fallen lower -- money tighter (i.e., interest rates are 1.5 points higher than at present --??)

How the Fed would meet all this demand is by massive injection of bank balances if that tumble should happen -- what would that do to already overblown money supply? -- "worry about that when and if..."

So I see Fed as having used quite a few "arrows" (including Dutch gold?) and how many more does it have? And how many are cost-free fixes, vs. some bill will come due later, in 2000, even if collapse is successfully fended off for now?

The case for gold ownership is that fundamentally, another fiat currency has already been debased, but public money (and public psychology), by one means or another, is being directed by powerful interests into suppressing gold's price and propping up that currency, and that inevitably, that manipulation must come to an end.

Only a question of when -- and the 20+ years they pulled off so far is a trick for the record books! Knowing and/or analyzing all of the other tricks they may have to play is truly beyond us, but such a wonderment to observe!

Netking (12/6/99; 17:28:20MDT - Msg ID:20433)
POG Outlook
Good Evening - The latest words of wisdom copied from 'Gold Mining Outlook'

"SUMMARY: My current outlook has been raised yet again and is now SLIGHTLY BULLISH for gold and its shares. The lower that gold drops, the
less potential downside that remains. This may not be the most emotionally satisfying reason for being bullish but the mathematics is compelling. On
the negative side, COMEX gold open interest continues to contract; if commercials are unwilling to buy at current price levels, the yellow metal will
bounce now and then from oversold conditions but will be unable to enjoy a sustained rally. On Monday, December 6, 1999, the XAU continued to
outperform the gold price on the downside, which is positive. Both platinum and crude oil, two commodities which historically correlate closely with gold, are in
the early stages of what is likely to be a substantial collapse for each, which will continue to pressure gold on the downside until these two commodities have
bottomed (platinum at $340, crude between $18 and $19). On the positive side, the JOC index of commodities remains above important support levels, while the
ECRI-FIG gauge of future inflation registered its greatest two-month surge in 16 years, improving gold's long-term fundamentals. Recent shareholder pressure has
been enormous on hedged miners to lift their hedges, both because of increased public awareness and agitation after the hedge book failures of Ashanti and
Cambior, and because of the share price outperformance of the unhedged miners such as Harmony. Yet they continue to hedge, which means that these producers
are either stupid, or else they must be anticipating lower prices for gold in the near future. Gold has already reached my target of $275, and yet commercials
still are not accumulating, while volume is suspiciously light for an important bottom. I still believe that the XAU will eventually decline to 58, though
the near-term outlook is slowly improving and shows signs of being oversold, so such a bottom may not be imminent. The XAU falling to 58 would
complete a strongly bullish long-term reverse head-and-shoulders pattern for gold which saw the index complete a left shoulder at 61.23 on January 12, 1998,
collapse to its upside-down head of 48.67 on August 31, 1998, and then make a double-tested right shoulder at 56.44/57.80 on March 30/July 19, 1999. The
continued strong relative performance of unhedged mining shares is a cause for serious concern; many of these shares such as Harmony (HGMCY) are still trading
close to the same prices as when gold was at $320, while hedged shares are at lower prices than before the early autumn rally even began, when gold was below
$260. This divergence is illogical, and demonstrates a recent obsession with unhedged shares well out of proportion to their profits and actual proven growth
potential. Before any strong rally in gold, the unhedged producers are almost always the weakest performers, as investor skepticism about the prospects for a gold
rally scares share buyers away from the uncertainty of always selling at the spot price. Bonds may recently have bottomed, as the action in utilities shares strongly
suggests, and rising bonds are very bad for gold since a certain critical mass of money often switches back and forth between fixed income securities and the yellow
metal."
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

A thought for the day; "There are no strangers on this forum just friends we haven't yet met"

CoinGuy (12/6/99; 17:17:10MDT - Msg ID:20432)
Farfel
Farfel,

Interesting read. I might have worded it a little differently, but I've thought the same thing several times in the past.

Coinguy

CoinGuy (12/6/99; 17:15:06MDT - Msg ID:20431)
Crossroads
I believe that "yammering" was my opinion(stated before MK explanation of his opinion), or 'freedom' to post, if you don't like it, doesn't mean you have to ridicule the rest of us. I think a read of the guidelines should be in your future as well.

I didn't see mention of Stranger's name today until...well you know.

Coinguy

Leigh (12/6/99; 17:13:54MDT - Msg ID:20430)
AEL, megatron
Dear AEL and megatron: You guys have a lot of nerve, taunting and hounding MK about his decision to banish Stranger. Please remember who pays for this site. MK has shown himself to be extremely kind to us -- he writes his Market Report each morning, pays Town Crier to keep us extravagantly updated on subjects affecting money and gold, sponsors contests to encourage high quality in posting (and gives out generous prizes), and on and on. Why shouldn't he have the privilege (and responsibility) of banishing a poster who transgresses his rules? FOA was hurt and offended by Stranger's post! Have you no regard for FOA's feelings?

I don't think any of the people who are now grumbling about "censorship" said a word when God was banished off this site recently. Pretty sad, considering that God CREATED gold and in the Bible lays claim to every ounce of it. You guys want unrestricted free speech for Stranger, but not for God.

Back to my self-imposed exile.

canamami (12/6/99; 17:05:41MDT - Msg ID:20429)
Correction to My Previous Post
http://www.siliconinvestor.com/stocktalk/msg.gsp?msgid=12196441
However, I must correct myself. The below statement states the Dutch sale WAS part of the agreement. Why didn't they announce it then? Perhaps they wanted to scare the shorts, or perhaps some of the Washington Agreement CB's were manipulating/playing the markets, and they wanted to maximize that rally, at that time.

I now commence a posting holiday.

To: John Hunt who wrote (45594)
From: Alex Monday, December 6, 1999 6:23 AM ET
Reply # of 45658

Dutch central bank to sell 100 tonnes gold next year
AMSTERDAM (AFX) - The Dutch central bank said it will sell 100 tonnes of gold next year as part of a five-year plan to sell 300 tonnes.

The sale is part of an agreement reached Sept 26 with 15 other European central banks to limit total gold sales to 2,000 tonnes over the next five years. The Dutch bank's share over the five-year period is 300 tonnes.

The Bank of International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland will coordinate the sale, the Dutch bank said.

The bank said even after the sale "the Netherlands will remain a significant goldholding country with a gold stock of more than 700 tonnes."

cjs/vs For more information and to contact AFX: www.afxnews.com and www.afxpress.com

� Copyright 1999, The Nasdaq Stock Market, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

******************************

Odd how gold exploded to the upside on the announcement of restricted sales and now dives when the same sales are occuring.

canamami (12/6/99; 16:09:25MDT - Msg ID:20428)
Brief Reply to Aristotle -#20403 - and the Dutch Sale - Wash. Agreement
Aristotle,

I had read the passage concerning the LBMA figures; they demonstrate there is still demand for gold and/or gold derivatives. I didn't say (or intend to say)there was no current demand for gold, simply that it is insufficient to move the price in the face of supply. Today's price action would appear to bear out my position. I would like to modify my position however, given Peter Asher's successful advocacy of precision of thought and expression. I spoke of demand from the Middle East and Asia because that's where FOA posits the demand will arise. However, an adequate increase in demand from any source would do the trick; a rediscovery of gold by the West could also do the trick, for example.

Next topic: I am quite alarmed by the Dutch sale. The Washington Agreement said there would only be sales which had been previously announced at the time of the Washington Agreement, if I recall correctly. To the best of my knowledge, the Dutch sales had NOT been announced at the time of the Washington Agreement. Thus, the Agreement has ALREADY been broken, IMHO. A very dangerous development for gold investors.

Al Fulchino (12/6/99; 16:08:39MDT - Msg ID:20427)
Farfel
I generally enjoy your posts...but not all gold bugs/hearts are scared little pussy cats....your statement for all its bombast is of course a narrow view. Are all M&M's red? Just because you are correct about *some* of the precious metal buyers, i.e.people concerned with y2k, not all are as you imply. Please, consider people who have used precious metals to purchase their freedom over the centuries as one example. History repeats itself always. We are not the evolving species that you might think. Please consider that gold and silver have been manipulated before, yet they have over a time reasserted their value. What has changed? Have there not been end of the world types before? Of course. Why do we see the central goverments try to maniuplate gold today? Let alone the fact that they still bother to hold it. Why?

I acknowledge your aptitude for things financial but I have to refrain from yielding to you in regards to golds upcoming or continuing non-importance.

I will tell you what! Myprediction is that gold will eventually rise and fall back some. Now obviously that is a silly prediction, but is very likely true. Shall I come back in a year and say "see! I predicted it!"? Your prediction of y2ker's actions is right, but it is a human nature call you are making, not one of economics.

Someone seemed to infer that you will be ejected for your recent post. I hope not. Afterall, your comments are not personal to anyone except the thin skinned. Then again a few phrases you chose were not exactly above poor taste, tho they may be colorful. You are very correct about the "sky is falling crowd", but again not all who talk about y2k are of that crowd, they just see y2k as part of a mix that also sees a traitorous president and newly well armed enemies.

Thank you for your time. Keep writing. I like all sides.

714 (12/6/99; 14:33:25MDT - Msg ID:20426)
Farfel...
Nice post. A good day for some dissent.

I must say though, that the only time POG sees any action is when a government, usually US or European, takes some action. Gold, as an asset class, has come to be TOTALLY dependent on government. A shame, a real shame.

megatron (12/6/99; 14:08:33MDT - Msg ID:20425)
turning point
By juxtaposing Euro/Dollar/S+p/and Silver on futures charts
(Investors Business Daily) you'll notice the deflection on Oct 15. was very pronounced. What happened on or near that day? Very curious. FOA?

megatron (12/6/99; 13:49:12MDT - Msg ID:20424)
farfel
That's it! Go for it! Your gonna get canned. Goodbye Farfel.

gidsek (12/6/99; 13:48:08MDT - Msg ID:20423)
Cross Roads
"There are a lot of things that I could say in response to "freedom" to post but I'm trying to respect the wishes of the host, which are clearly stated in the Guidelines and Prohibitions section. Maybe there is a need to re-evaluate why you visit this site before you go on complaining about the way its being run!"

Hear! Hear!

gidsek

Peter Asher (12/6/99; 13:41:42MDT - Msg ID:20422)
Aristotle
Thank you. Acknowledgements don't get any better than that!!

Journeyman (12/6/99; 13:32:46MDT - Msg ID:20421)
What the FED knows that most of us don't
Why has the FED been pumping dollars into the economy for the last three months at an annualized rate of 24%? Because they know something that most of us don't: The banking system is likely to fail, and the more paper available to us and our neighbors, the less civil unrest and anti-bank sentiment that's likely to arise. Regards, Journeyman

Journeyman (12/6/99; 13:19:45MDT - Msg ID:20420)
More on American DISINFORMATION @AEL
Great collection of disinformation verification quotes. Lately I've become almost certain these techniques, developed and widely deployed in this country since a key advisory group on such propaganda tactics was incorporated into the US Government in the mid 40's, have been being studied and used more and more by more and more US institutions. The use of "Spin Doctors" is the tip of the iceberg, and if you want to see the best in action, watch tapes of the Clinton side in the total impeachment joust, not just the hearings. . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ ._ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ Could these same techniques be used to tarnish the "golden image?" Why not? . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ ._ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ .I Hope you won't mind if I incorporate your dyn-o-mite collection of US Government disinformation-revealing quotes into my own, some included below in return. . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ ._ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ "Despite the media self image as tough and independent, they typically function as stenographers to public officials like yourselves. And news typically ends up being what puplic officials say or do." -Matthew Miller, Economics Editor of The New Republic, C-SPAN, 11 Mar 1996, 11:58 AM EST. . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ ._ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ JOHNNY CARSON: "How much of the national news that you report to the public each night constists of information you've actually gone out and dug up on your own?" + CONNIE CHUNG: "In all honesty, Johnny, we are often at the mercy of the White House for the news we report. Frequently, we simply repeat verbatim what the White House tells us." -"The Spotlight" promo letter ~June 24, 1992 . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ ._ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ "What's more, it's an open secret among military planners that media reports from combat zones are exploited for their intelligence value. Col. Fred Peck was the United States Marine spokesman during the conflict in Somalia." -commentator off-screen. "In fact when I was back at the Pentagon during the Gulf War, we had a direct feed from CNN, not what was going out over broadcast, but everything that was comming in was being piped into the Pentagon." -Fred Peck, MSNBC, 28 Mar 1999, ~ 3:44:25 PM . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ ._ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ ~"In all my experience, I have never seen such a concerted, coordinated, propaganda campaign as the one being waged against Yugoslavia by the U.S. Government and the establishment. Every government wages psychological warfare, not against the enemy, but against their own people. ... Let's not let the government psychological warriors, with the willing cooperation of it's media cohorts, win this war without opposition. -Saul Halperin, KNPR rebroadcast of L.A. Anti-War Teach-In, 05-31-99, 4:35pm EDT . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ ._ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ The federal government they [the 12 history textbooks he reviewed] picture is still the people's servant, manageable and tractable. Paradoxically, textbooks then underplay the role of nongovernmental institutions or private citizens in bringing about improvements in the environment, race relations, education, and other social issues. In short, textbook authors portray a heroic state, and, like their other heroes, this one is pretty much without blemishes. Such an approach converts textbooks into anticitizenship manuals--handbooks for acquiesence. -James W. Loewen, LIES MY TEACHER TOLD ME, (New York, NY: Touchstone 1996), p. 215 & 216 . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ ._ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ Regards, Journeyman

Farfel (12/6/99; 12:21:52MDT - Msg ID:20419)
Desperation Amongst the Central Banks...Same Old, Same Old.
It is really uncanny how these anti-gold actions are being trotted out with only a little more than 3 weeks until y2k.

Gold leasing by Kuwait.

Gold sales by Jordan and the Netherlands.

It is a joke, the unmitigated blatant nature of the manipulations, the desperate attempt to bring about a daily message to the effect: GOLD is absolutely worthless, like toxic waste, we must get rid of it ASAP!

Well, as I predicted many times on this forum these past few months, the anti-gold actions of the CB's were bound to happen this pre-y2k year.

Moreover, goldbug reactions are also exactly as I expected: gold investors are the most frightened little pussycats you will ever meet. You need only say "BOO!" in their ears and they all go racing for the exits. That is the REAL reason why it is pointless to hold gold today. NOT because of the all too transparent actions of the CB's and their anti-gold Wall Street partners-in-crime. It is because a preponderance of weak-kneed, sissy, dimwits invest in gold today...and the companies that supply gold to the market are captained today by the most egregious, slimy, deceitful, mentally challenged, jerk-offs that ever found their way out of the backwood pissholes of Northern Ontario.

THERE is your problem with the gold market...its the private owners, investors, and producers who are their own worst enemies.

You would think by now they could put 2 + 2 together and figure out the manipulative nature of these various media-heralded gold sales and leases. By now you would think they would simply laugh at these all too transparent desperate attempts to scare down the price of gold....and they would buy TWICE as much gold as before.

But NOOOOOOOO......whenever these anti-gold actions appear out of the blue, the average gold investor runs shrieking for the skirt of his mommy, dumping his gold along the way.

It is sad and pathetic...and THAT is why there is little to no hope of the gold price going anywhere for years to come.
THAT is why I don't buy the stuff anymore.

When the innate psychology of the gold investor changes someday (and I don't hold much hope it will), then and only then would I return to the gold market. Until then, it really is hopeless for gold's prospects.

Thanks

F*

beesting (12/6/99; 12:19:52MDT - Msg ID:20418)
HCBC-Republic merger cleared by regulator.
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/991206/x5.html
The FEDERAL RESERVE on Monday approved the 9.85 billion takeover of the U.S. Bank, Republic New York Corp.

Opinion section of post:
This Stinks of crony-ism! Japanese firms last week named Republic New York Corp. in a lawsuit,which in a normal case scenario gives the court power to freeze assets.... So Republic is now officially owned by HCBC(Hong Kong Shanghi Banking Corp.) a London based company which is out of U.S. Court "JURISDICTION". An action accelerated by your friendly FED,and possibly in the best interests of the FED.(the closure of Republics large financial web could have affected the entire securities-derivative's dollar based system.)Republic a bullion bank'supplies COMEX and who knows who else with physical Gold!!!
Lets see if mainstream news America even reports this stuff.....Heyyaa take your money and run.......beesting

TownCrier (12/6/99; 12:15:15MDT - Msg ID:20417)
BBC: Euro bounces back
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/newsid_552000/552721.stm
On good Euroland economic data (manufacturing orders up, unemployment down) the euro surges 2% higher versus the dollar...a relatively large move for the currency markets.

Crossroads (12/6/99; 11:44:48MDT - Msg ID:20416)
Gold Site
Yammer yammer yammer�Stranger�yammer yammer�.For those who believe that they have the right to continue this "yammering", perhaps you ought to all revisit the "Guidelines and Prohibitions" to see just what it was that you ALL agreed to sign in under. This IS Mikes site and he has the right to pull the plug and if the conflict continues on for no other reason than to prove your point, he might just pick up his toys and go home! There are a lot of things that I could say in response to "freedom" to post but I'm trying to respect the wishes of the host, which are clearly stated in the Guidelines and Prohibitions section. Maybe there is a need to re-evaluate why you visit this site before you go on complaining about the way its being run!

MK, I applaud your stand in working to keep this site the way you originally intended! I hope this can be forgotten and the site can remain open for I have gotten an education in gold since coming here.

Nightrider (12/6/99; 11:07:26MDT - Msg ID:20415)
Compound Interest
Aristottle/YGM
I follow this room because I too am at prestent an Investor
of Gold stocks. Im invested in Gold stocks at this time for one reason and one reason only and that reason is because as I view the economic land scape Gold stocks should bennefit. That is the Only reason.

I view my Gold stocks holdings the same way I have viewed all my other stock investments over the past 20 years as a means to increase my Networth.

15 years ago a relative purchased a huge amount of Silver and this relative encouged me to do like wise I didnt follow his advice and today his Silver holdings are half want he paid for them and MY investments have increased more than 25 Times.

The question each Investor must decide for themselfs is Were should one place there resources to gain the maxium bennefit?

I invest for the purpose of Increasing my Networth! some people are so worried about losing a Dollar that they wont allow themselfs to make Ten dollars.

TownCrier (12/6/99; 11:05:05MDT - Msg ID:20414)
Dutch central bank to keep dates of gold sales secret
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/991206/fo.html
The Dutch Central Bank issued a statement Monday that referenced the Washington Agreement (gold-sale moratorium) of September: "With due observence of this agreement and after prior consultation with the other participants, De Nederlandsche Bank intends to sell 300 tonnes of gold during this five year period, starting with 100 tonnes in the first year."

But consider this...a statement also indicated that the sale would be handled by the Bank for International Settlements, and the dates would not be announced in advance.

Dutch Central Bank spokesman Olaf Sleijpen said "We will not comment on exactly the way or when we are going to sell precisely. When the sales have taken place, you can easily see it from the weekly financial statement of the Dutch Central Bank or from the ECB." He further said that ONE reason for not telling the market in advance was to reduce the impact as experienced by the Bank of England's public auctions.

Given the wiggle room in these words, and the fact that the dates would not be announced in advance, two thoughts immediately come to mind.
First, the 100 tonnes might very well have already have been sold.
Second, think about the solid undercurrent of demand for gold that exists if a sale can be successfully conducted when, ostensibly, the market is not going to be told when the gold is offered for actual sale...they must find out from the after-the-fact weekly financial statements of the Bank. Think about it...obviously it is well known by the central bank (and the BIS) that there will be no lack of a buyer when the time is at hand to move this gold under the timeframe allowed within the Washington Agreement. No announcement is needed because they already know they won't be needing or depending on the worldwide marketplace in order to move this gold.

This is not about getting the "best price." This is about placing gold exactly where it needs to be. It can't be called "gold manipulation" either, because this is merely the revelation of a detail filling in a previous blank that was present in the Washington Agreement. Considering all of this, the price should not have fallen...it was a knee jerk reaction. In The Tower's view, this has become a prime buying opportunity coming like it has in addition to last week's downdraft. The price of gold is now near the pre-Washington Agreement price...and here is what Salomon Smith Barney said (as can be found in The USAGOLD Gilded Opinion) when the price surged from this same level following the mere *announcement* of the Washington Agreement:
"The speed with which the market has begun to adjust to the new realities of central bank lending has been remarkable, even for those of us who had argued the potential for an explosive move in the price at some point. Even more astounding, the sharp price rebound has occurred in *anticipation* of the lending freeze, not in *response* to it." Meaning, the original price rise was nothing more than the initial reaction of market players...the actual resulting supply impact hasn't even had its chance to be felt in the marketplace yet. Now that much of the initial sentiment's (both up and down) have worked their way through the markets, this certainly shapes up as a prime "buy the dips" opportunity to get more metal for your same dollar-exchange commitments.

Galearis (12/6/99; 10:51:25MDT - Msg ID:20413)
The Dutch DB announcement
Yet again we see the hopes and dreams of gold-bugs of the world bloodied again with this newest hit on the gold camp. Although an amateur in this market, I hold fast to the concept (with, in all honesty somewhat pale knuckles) that fundamentally the Euro-banks are gold bugs as they so dramatically demonstrated with the Washington Agreement. We in our camp also hold that the gold market has also fundamentally changed with the end(?) of the gold carry trade. And yet we are yet again staggered by an apparent inconsistancy with a behavior that seems to belie this more favoured status for the yellow - with the behavior of a central bank that appears to be working against its own interests.

This begs the question, and I am reassured by this: Why would a CB of the Euro camp undermine the value of its own currency in this fashion with such a poorly timed announcement? Surely there is communication between these institutions as there has never existed before? Why would the Euro camp suddenly take up the flag of the CABEL?

I do agree wholeheartedly with FOAs take on this, and we should rather consider the long view on these events rather than the day to day affect on the price of the metal. The price does not pertain to worth and has not since the carry began to be exploited by the fiscal powers of US and its vassals.

I believe that this is likely just another stage of cleaning out the derivative gold market. If one considers the possibility that the Euro banks set up a very clever bear trap (?) for the gold carry crowd - which was sprung with their announcement that their leasing of the yellow was ended, we must also consider that that particular war is not quite over. For more stability there must be further punishment for those that would mark gold's "worth" by its weight in the paper trade. For all those paper shorts that would carry on and set the yellow's price by paper, the broom is soon to be exercised. All is not as it seems (I hope). FWIW and IMMHO.

AEL (12/6/99; 10:49:23MDT - Msg ID:20412)
followups

Canuck Gold (12/5/99; 14:27:20MDT - Msg ID:20327): "In the interest
of fairness, if anyone wants to see The Stranger's last offensive
post before MK cut him off, send me an eMail at..."

....... Thanks, I will. But this little end-around thing is really
quite silly, don't you think?

koan (12/5/99; 11:50:42MDT - Msg ID:20320): "AEL - most important and
courageous post..."

....... Thanks for the (extravagant) acknowledgement. Tho, getting
kicked off the usagold board wouldn't be so bad. I haven't been
arrested or kicked out of anything recently, and I missed the
opportunity in Seattle, which suggests that I haven't really been
*living* The Truth... ;)

Aristotle (12/5/99; 10:54:20MDT - Msg ID:20314): "These endless pleas
on behalf of The Stranger are quite off-topic from Gold as and
investment or financial asset"

....... My own comments were not a "plea on behalf of The Stranger",
they were a plea on behalf of an idea that I had about this forum...
which, I'm sure you will agree, deals primarily but hardly
exclusively with gold as an investment. Gold, freedom, gold, The
Constitution, gold, the state vs the individual, gold... etcetera.......

dragonfly (12/04/99; 11:53:37MDT - Msg ID:20246): "Sir, your logic
pertaining to the infrastructural prerequisite reminds me of Mikhail
Bakunin's..."

....... Thanks, d-fly. But my ramblings certainly do not deserve
mention in the same breath as Bakunin's work.

dragonfly (12/5/99; 11:03:23MDT - Msg ID:20315): "From Antony
Sutton's "Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler".... Over the years I
have typed up a number of passages that hit home..."

....... Great stuff! Are your typed-up passages email-able? I'd love
to see more, if they resemble in quality the selections you've already
posted. Please drop me a line at aelewis@provide.net (Koan: you drop
me a line too, ok?)

Peter Asher (12/5/99; 19:35:17MDT - Msg ID:20353): "Censorship is
when the Government says no-one can produce anything with certain
words or ideas in it."

....... No. Much as I can't stand the Government (probably more than
you), the blame for censorship can hardly be laid exclusively at it's
feet, as has been very abundantly illustrated by the sort of media
manipulations that we've seen in recent years. Things have gone far
beyond mere "censorship" in the literal and direct sense (though they
include that, too), to a sort of meta-censorship and master-framing
of issues. I append herewith a few pertinent quotes. You might think
they are "off-topic"; I think of them as "broader-topic" -- the
context within which the gold manipulation story occurs and is but
one small incident. Good to get the larger view, too, I think. Some
of these remarks were quite poignant for me as a goldheart, once I
made the relevant substitutions.

(Please note that I do NOT think that this little dealie at usagold
represents some sinister act of censorship or breach of freedom; it
is, however, consistent with such acts.)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

"There's a whole journalistic-industrial complex dedicated to keeping
newsprint, TV screens and radio waves clean of destabilizing scoops
damaging to corporations or the state." -- Alexander Cockburn,
journalist

"There is no such thing, at this date of the world's history, in
America, as an independent press. The business of the journalists is
to destroy the truth, to lie outright, to pervert, to vilify, to fawn
at the feet of mammon, and to sell his country and his race for his
daily bread. We are the tools and vassals of rich men behind the
scenes. We are the jumping jacks, they pull the strings and we dance.
Our talents, our possibilities and our lives are all the property of
other men. We are intellectual prostitutes." -- John Swinton, Chief
of Staff, New York Times (in 1953!)

"If those in charge of our society - politicians, corporate
executives, and owners of press and television - can dominate our
ideas, they will be secure in their power. They will not need
soldiers patrolling the streets. We will control ourselves." --
Howard Zinn, historian and author

"The enormous gap between what US leaders do in the world and what
Americans think their leaders are doing is one of the great
propaganda accomplishments of the dominant political mythology." --
Michael Parenti, political scientist and author

"The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly
limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively
debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and
dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free
thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the
system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the
debate." -- Noam Chomsky, American linguist

"As long as people are marginalized and distracted [they] have no way
to organize or articulate their sentiments, or even know that others
have these sentiments. People assume that they are the only people
with a crazy idea in their heads. They never hear it from anywhere
else. Nobody's supposed to think that. ... Since there's no way to
get together with other people who share or reinforce that view and
help you articulate it, you feel like an oddity, an oddball. So you
just stay on the side and you don't pay any attention to what's going
on. You look at something else, like the Superbowl." -- Noam Chomsky,
American linguist

"One of the intentions of corporate-controlled media is to instill in
people a sense of disempowerment, of immobilization and paralysis.
Its outcome is to turn you into good consumers. It is to keep people
isolated, to feel that there is no possibility for social change." --
David Barsamian, journalist and publisher

rsjacksr (12/6/99; 9:57:18MDT - Msg ID:20411)
Steve Saville (a.k.a. Milhouse) on upcoming market retraction if Y2K doesn't pan out as expected
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_99/milhouse120799.html
[snip] Warburg Dillon Read have shown that the US has enjoyed
negative real interest rates for the past three years.

"If the world is able to navigate into the next Millennium without a major disaster, the Fed will
act immediately to restrict the rate of money supply growth. This is the key problem for the
exuberant stock market - the more uneventful the Y2K transition, the less money will be
available to support a continued surge in stock prices".

Aristotle (12/6/99; 9:48:21MDT - Msg ID:20410)
Peter Asher--You really put on a clinic yesterday in lucid thought!
Plenty of posts on a wide range of topics, all of them dandy! Am doubly impressed you picked up on that "post-haste" comment. Simply amazing.

Hey Dragonfly, I really liked your msg 20326. This passage in particular was Gold--
"Maybe that is why I turned to gold coins in the first place, because it just made sense and required so much less participation in a corrupted system of near infinite betrayal. It is interesting to note that quite a few of my friends who have 'gone along' with the 401K game, and have substantial paper profits over the last 10 years, are somewhat disturbed now that financial rumblings have awakened their sensibilities and they notice the 'sacrifice' required to get liquid. I joked with them over the years that the faith required to participate in such a system was ever an amazement to me, especially given the fact that they wouldn't trust their dollars with the neighbor next door much less someone they didn't know a few blocks away, yet they would hand it over under the most interesting of 'conditionalities' to folks who were doing all manner of odd things with those dollars."

Good points, especially the various sacrifices (extra tax hits and penalties) required to reclaim this "money" back out of the investment system. Sheeesh.

Gold. It's all yours (pure ownership) if only you're strong enough to get you some. (Bucking the anti-Gold peer pressure!) ---Aristotle

Bill (12/6/99; 9:20:14MDT - Msg ID:20409)
Gold attack prior to Y2K
Is it possible that the Hannibals see y2k as having a large effect in the POG and are therefore trying to minimalize it now before the fact?

NewGold (12/6/99; 8:44:54MDT - Msg ID:20408)
Safra
It was Just announced that his male American nurse who
was on the job just 3 months is being held in connection
with the fire that killed him. He has admitted setting it.
This is getting weird.

USAGOLD (12/6/99; 8:39:06MDT - Msg ID:20407)
Let's Try This Again.....Today's Market Report: Gold Lining to Dutch Dark Cloud?
MARKET REPORT(12/6/99): Gold nose-dived nearly $6 on a surprise
announcement by the Dutch that they would be liquidating 100 tons of
gold next year and another 200 in the five years thereafter. It appears
to be recovering as go to fetch this over to the server...now down
$3.70.

Though the announcement came out of the clear blue, market analysts knew
there was a final 300 tons of sales to be announced at some point in the
future. This is the last piece in the Washington Agreement puzzle which
called for 2000 tons to be liquidated over the next five years -- 1300
by Switzerland, 400 by Britain and now the final 300 from the Dutch --
one of the signatories of the agreement.

The announcement sent the price down in London nearly $7 at one point,
but the yellow managed to recover a good portion by day end in London
finishing down $3.60. The pre-sale announcement had gold market analysts
scratching their heads. Kamal Naqvi of London's Macquarie Equities spoke
what was on the minds of many when he was quoted by Bridge News as
saying, "The Dutch have always been very clear that they wanted to sell,
but the timing is very bizarre. It's just another indication of the poor
way that central banks perform their gold related activities," he said.
He also told Bridge that this plan should have been announced when the
original agreement was detailed in September, adding that this was very
"clumsy handling". Coming on top of the Bank of England activity, the
Dutch announcement seems superfluous but then again little that the
central banks -- including our own -- have done in this very volatile
year appears prudent from the outside looking in with one notable
exception -- the Washington Agreement to limit sales and leases of gold.
At any rate, 100 tons of gold from the official sector is only 10% of
the structural deficit between production and consumption of over 1000
tons in the gold bullion market and the Dutch announcement is unlikely
to have a lasting effect. When the numbers are absorbed and the analysts
re-run their supply demand tables, the near term reaction could be the
opposite of what we are seeing now. The market might like the fact that
only 100 tons, not 300 tons, are coming on the market in year 2000.

Meanwhile, there remains the dire need for gold in the bullion bank
sector we mentioned on several occasions here. The announcement might
act to bolster confidence in that very nervous sector -- and that might
explain the bizarre timing -- just a little psychological boost from one
friendly central banker to another, it seems.

Meanwhile, the dollar is getting hammered mercilessly as financial
players worldwide watch the Federal Reserve pump up the money supply
like there's no tomorrow in preparation for the Year 2000. James Grant
(Grant's Interest Rate Observer) in an article title "New Year's
Confetti" points out that the Fed is preparing for "millennium
festivities" with "massive credit creation" -- with a three month
annualized growth rate of 24%.

Says Grant (E-mail = info@grantspub.com), "Either the financial markets
have failed to notice the stupendous growth in the Fed's balance sheet,
or they have written it off as a millennial event without monetary
significance. However, unless those dollars are promptly reeled back in
again after the new year terror passes, monetary significance there will
be certainly be." His outlook: "In response to the gratuitous over issue
dollars, the bond market vigilantes out to saddle up, and the gold
market ought to rally. The dollar ought to weaken and not only against
the yen."

The dollar was derailed in Europe this morning, the monetary creation no
doubt a driving force, though it was improving slightly against the yen.
Beleaguered Japan got more bad news about their economy over the weekend
-- the growth rate was down 1%.

We'll see how things work out with gold as the day progresses. That's it
for today, fellow goldmeisters. See you here tomorrow.

Please call 800-869-5115 (Ask for Mary Conway) if you have an
interest in receiving a trial subscription to our widely read
newsletter, News & Views: Forecasts, Commentary and Analysis on
the Economy and Precious Metals. Or you can go to our ORDER FORM
and submit your request by E-Mail. You will also receive our
introductory packet on investing in gold.

USAGOLD (12/6/99; 8:37:10MDT - Msg ID:20406)
Today's Market Report: Gold Lining to Dutch Dark Cloud?
<TR>
<TD WIDTH="33%" HEIGHT="29"> <TT>12/6/99 Early Indications</TT></TD>
<TD WIDTH="33%"> <TT>Current</TT></TD>
<TD WIDTH="34%"> <TT>Change</TT></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH="33%" HEIGHT="17"> <TT>Gold</TT></TD>
<TD WIDTH="33%"> 277.50</TD>
<TD WIDTH="34%"> <TT>-3.70</TT></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH="33%" HEIGHT="17"> <TT>Silver</TT></TD>
<TD WIDTH="33%"> 5.09</TD>
<TD WIDTH="34%"> <TT>-.04</TT></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH="33%" HEIGHT="20"> <TT>Gold Lease Rate</TT></TD>
<TD WIDTH="33%"> 1.9288% (30 day)</TD>
<TD WIDTH="34%"> <TT>+0.1500%</TT></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH="33%" HEIGHT="17"> <TT>Gold Comex Stocks</TT></TD>
<TD WIDTH="33%"> <TT>1,291,209</TT></TD>
<TD WIDTH="34%"> <TT>+32,118</TT></TD></TR>
</TABLE>

<TT>MARKET REPORT</TT><TT>(12/6/99):
Gold nose-dived nearly $6 on a surprise announcement by the Dutch that
they would be liquidating 100 tons of gold next year and another 200 in
the five years thereafter. It appears to be recovering as go to fetch this
over to the server...now down $3.70. </TT>
<TT>Though the announcement came out of the clear blue, market analysts
knew there was a final 300 tons of sales to be announced at some point
in the future. This is the last piece in the Washington Agreement puzzle
which called for 2000 tons to be liquidated over the next five years --
1300 by Switzerland, 400 by Britain and now the final 300 from the Dutch
-- one of the signatories of the agreement. </TT>
<TT>The announcement sent the price down in London nearly $7 at one
point, but the yellow managed to recover a good portion by day end in London
finishing down $3.60. The pre-sale announcement had gold market analysts
scratching their heads. Kamal Naqvi of London's Macquarie Equities spoke
what was on the minds of many when he was quoted by Bridge News as saying,
"The Dutch have always been very clear that they wanted to sell, but
the timing is very bizarre. It's just another indication of the poor way
that central banks perform their gold related activities," he said.
He also told Bridge that this plan should have been announced when the
original agreement was detailed in September, adding that this was very
"clumsy handling". Coming on top of the Bank of England activity,
the Dutch announcement seems superfluous but then again little that the
central banks -- including our own -- have done in this very volatile year
appears prudent from the outside looking in with one notable exception
-- the Washington Agreement to limit sales and leases of gold. At any rate,
100 tons of gold from the official sector is only 10% of the structural
deficit between production and consumption of over 1000 tons in the gold
bullion market and the Dutch announcement is unlikely to have a lasting
effect. When the numbers are absorbed and the analysts re-run their supply
demand tables, the near term reaction could be the opposite of what we
are seeing now. The market might like the fact that only 100 tons, not
300 tons, are coming on the market in year 2000.</TT>
<TT>Meanwhile, there remains the dire need for gold in the bullion bank
sector we mentioned on several occasions here. The announcement might act
to bolster confidence in that very nervous sector -- and that might explain
the bizarre timing -- just a little psychological boost from one friendly
central banker to another, it seems. </TT>
<TT>Meanwhile, the dollar is getting hammered mercilessly as financial
players worldwide watch the Federal Reserve pump up the money supply like
there's no tomorrow in preparation for the Year 2000. James Grant (Grant's
Interest Rate Observer) in an article title "New Year's Confetti"
points out that the Fed is preparing for "millennium festivities"
with "massive credit creation" -- with a three month annualized
growth rate of 24%.</TT>
<TT>Says Grant (E-mail = info@grantspub.com), "Either the financial
markets have failed to notice the stupendous growth in the Fed's balance
sheet, or they have written it off as a millennial event without monetary
significance. However, unless those dollars are promptly reeled back in
again after the new year terror passes, monetary significance there will
be certainly be." His outlook: "In response to the gratuitous
over issue dollars, the bond market vigilantes out to saddle up, and the
gold market ought to rally. The dollar ought to weaken and not only against
the yen." </TT>
<TT>The dollar was derailed in Europe this morning, the monetary creation
no doubt a driving force, though it was improving slightly against the
yen. Beleaguered Japan got more bad news about their economy over the weekend
-- the growth rate was down 1%. </TT>
<TT>We'll see how things work out with gold as the day progresses. That's
it for today, fellow goldmeisters. See you here tomorrow.</TT>
<TT>Please call 800-869-5115 </TT><TT>(Ask for Mary Conway) if
you have an interest in receiving a trial subscription to our widely read
newsletter, News & Views: Forecasts, Commentary and Analysis on
the Economy and Precious Metals. Or you can go to our <A
HREF="http://www.usagold.com/Order_Form.html">ORDER FORM</A>
and submit your request by E-Mail. You will also receive our introductory
packet on investing in gold.</TT>
<TT>For ongoing discussion on economic and political issues near and
dear to gold, please visit our <A HREF="http://www.usagold.com/cpmforum/">USAGOLD
FORUM</A>. I think you will enjoy and benefit from the on-going
discussion.</TT>

Aristotle (12/6/99; 7:45:06MDT - Msg ID:20405)
A reply to Canuck's follow-up question
Canuck (12/2/99; 18:25:24MDT - Msg ID:20083)
"Aristotle
Thank you for 20048 and 20051 seems to make sense to me.
You posts carry a philosophical tone, I like that. Any thoughts on the definition of investing versus speculating.
I saw a phrase the other day, it went something like this, "investing is a sure thing, guaranteed income, if the income (increase) is not guaranteed it is speculating"
There have been many posts declaring the merits of investing in gold versus speculating in gold and I fail to see the difference. Surely the difference is not a time thing, that is, investing in gold is a long term venture whereby speculating is short term. How would one define the time frame? Surely the difference is not of financial gain; in either scenario profit is a common denominator. How do you feel about this bizarre question?"
---------------
Canuck, I may have killed two birds with one stone, answering your question in a response I gave to Nightrider in yesterday's post--

Aristotle (12/5/99; 9:10:37MDT - Msg ID:20301) "Question and comment for Nightrider"

The way I see it, having physical Gold (in hand, unleveraged) is neither investing or speculating. It is saving. In fact, it is saving in a superior form of currency, and one that I fully expect to appreciate against all others--the dollar, the yen, the euro, the peso, etc. In that regard, simple savings held as Gold could be viewed as an investment in that it will generate a larger future return in terms of these other currencies. Some people spent their entire careers jumping their funds from one currency to another in a form of speculative investing. These people, if they are good at making the right guesses, might live their whole life without ever putting their money into stocks. In fact, one spectacularly correct call on currency markets might set them up for life, then they could play it conservative 'til the end of their days. If someone prefers to hold Gold savings, but is made to feel bucolic or pedestrian by his peers, perhaps he could adopt the attitude that he is actually a very sophisticated investor playing the currency markets with an unleveraged bet on the world's only infallible, permanent and supreme currency--Gold.

Get you some. ---Aristotle

Al Fulchino (12/6/99; 7:39:32MDT - Msg ID:20404)
tedw re 20356
You referenced a LAPD officer in your post. I have only seen that comment in a letter to the editor from the FHU newletter. Is that where you saw it?

Aristotle (12/6/99; 7:25:18MDT - Msg ID:20403)
Follow-up to canamami's response
In your original post (Msg ID:20299) I largely understood that your "gold is dead" comment was delivered as somewhat whimsical, with your true implication being that Gold is not currently dead but merely in the PROCESS of dying unless new physical demand materializes somehow (deus ex machina) to save the day. With my post (Msg ID:20307) to you, I tried to give the strongest single piece of concrete evidence that I could lay my hands on to help you disspell that dying notion. However, in your reply to me (Msg ID:20319), you clarified further what it was that you meant with the "gold is dead" comment, but made absolutely no mention of the impression left on you by this very strong evidence I offered. In fact, you restated your belief that physical demand must visually materialize out of Asia or the Middle East or else Gold as a viable monetary asset will fail, saying "I just need to see evidence that such sufficient demand exists."

Well, my friend, here it is once again, just in case you overlooked it in my original message (because it was attached at the end after my "sign-off.") Following is an abreviated version of the text I originally provided yesterday from the LBMA website showing that Gold currently enjoys mindboggling use in transfer directly AS money, and not merely as a derivative investment vehicle. Read on--

"LBMA BACKGROUND: London is the global clearing centre for gold and silver in much the same way that all US dollar transactions ultimately clear in New York, or Japanese yen in Tokyo." -- Clearing Turnover Statistics for October 1999 showed a daily average of 37.2 million ounces transferred between owners (mostly done as a book entry on the Member's books.) That is 1,160 TONNES changing ownership every DAY! There is far too much going on in the realm of monetary Gold than to be at the mercy of physical demand--which, by the way, set a second-straight quarterly record. It's safe to say that rumors of Gold's death have been greatly exaggerated.

Gold. Get you some. ---Aristotle

Number Six (12/6/99; 7:10:35MDT - Msg ID:20402)
Saffra...
From GE...

Safra's Nurse Arrested in Murder Investigation
(JohnnieReb) Dec 06, 08:40

Le Monde and AFP Report
By Leslie de Quillacq and Jacqueline Simmons

Paris, Dec. 6 (Bloomberg) -- Ted Maher, the 41-year-old nurse of Edmond J. Safra, who died in his Monaco apartment Friday after an apparent murder attempt, was arrested last night and is being held in custody by police, French daily Le Monde and Agence France-
Presse reported, citing unidentified sources in the prosecutor's office. The statements of the nurse, who said he raised the alarm that two hooded men had broken into Safra's apartment, were contradictory and changed during the course of his police interrogation, Le Monde said. The nurse, a U.S. citizen who had worked for Safra for five months, admitted that the knife he was
allegedly stabbed with belonged to him and tests have been ordered to find out if he could have inflicted them himself, according to the newspaper.

Safra, the Lebanese-born billionaire who founded Republic New York Corp., locked himself in a bathroom with another nurse after the break-in and died of asphyxiation after his penthouse caught fire.

Martin Armstrong next?

RossL (12/6/99; 7:08:32MDT - Msg ID:20401)
ET - TED spread chart

ET, you provided a link to a TED spread chart last night. How accurate are those spreadscope.com charts?

The WSJ this morning shows Dec Eurodollar futures at 93.92 and Dec T-bill futures at 94.90 for a spread of 0.98

For actual rates instead of futures, the quotes on the WSJ front page of section C has 3-month Eurodollar deposits at 6.16% and 3-month T-bills at 5.09% for a spread of 1.07

nickel62 (12/6/99; 6:24:35MDT - Msg ID:20400)
Well said "Simply Me"
I enjoyed your post and am heading out to buy some more gold soveriegns for my kids for Christmas. They are having a Dutch sale of 12% off.Best Wishes.

Number Six (12/6/99; 5:57:41MDT - Msg ID:20399)
Oil... x2 + ;o)
From GE

Harry Schultz oil price prediction
(1GFL) Dec 06, 06:21

The infamous Harry Schultz predicts oil to double (again) before the end of the year and then to go up another 75-100% after that.

Does anyone have a link or the full text of the harry Schultz newsletter?

schippi (12/6/99; 5:50:47MDT - Msg ID:20398)
Gold News from Reuter
``This looks like a classic example of a killer blow which turns out only to be a feint. With today's Dutch announcement, the
final uncertainty should have been taken out of the market and the ensuing weakness should be bought,'' said T Hoare
Canacord metals analyst Rhona O'Connell.

Black Blade (12/6/99; 5:32:17MDT - Msg ID:20397)
POG -$4.00, s&p futures +2.20
Now we know who the last European culprit is. 1300 tonnes Swiss, 400 tonnes Brits, and 300 tonnes Dutch, with an overall cap of 2000 tonnes per Washington agreement. We're good for 5 years now, right? hmmm.......

The Wallstreet bubble looks to continue at the open today. Oh well, "the bigger they are, the harder they fall (crash)" As Au sinks in price, the greater the bargain.

FOA (12/6/99; 5:29:23MDT - Msg ID:20396)
Comment
ALL:
The Dutch sale is right in line with the 2,000 limit in the Washington Agreement. In fact, it's very possible they may not reach that limit if the Swiss sale is constrained by their public. It's important to remember that in the past Dutch sales, the buyers were never known! This sale could be the return of the 79 tonne into Kuwait, replacing that deal and others that were forced by the LBMA?

Or, more likely we will see the books of the ECB slowly expand over the five year period as whatever amount of the 2,000 comes up for sale. Because we are under $280 now don't expect the ECB to be buying LBMA paper to bolster their paper credibility. Expect them to take in "real gold" on the official market. We will know over the next weeks and months, especially if the sale essentially becomes a "transfer" off the open market.

Now you know why being "on the road to high priced gold" will not be the fun easy ride to riches. These swings in the paper market prices are nothing compared to what is coming! Like I said in my last post; forget trying to time buying paper gold derivatives or gold stocks, you'll get killed in the political motives, feelings and forced plays! Buy physical for the eventual outcome. By the gold, not the price.

ORO, thanks for the post, I'll work on it later. If things don't get too out of hand!

FOA

Number Six (12/6/99; 5:08:03MDT - Msg ID:20395)
"In its simplest form, the Bank of England was selling gold borrowed from thieves in Amsterdam..."
http://www.skolnicksreport.com/england.html
Here is the Skolnick piece... it all fits...

============================================================

Far too many people believe the common fairy tale that geniuses are in charge of financial affairs. History is riddled with the monumental blunders of the big money crowd.

If the price of gold goes up, it tends to discredit paper money. After all, some do consider gold the only real, independent money, separate and apart from Governments. The Bank of England has been part of a scheme to force down the price of gold. Up to about the summer of 1999, gold had been pushed down to just a touch over 250 dollars per ounce, a recent historical low. The best, most efficient Canadian mines have a cost of production at 285 dollars per ounce. So the Bank of England announced for September, 1999, another sale of gold supposedly from "their Reserves". This was joined with stories, not every one believed, that OTHER central banks were tired of having gold reserves and were and are likewise selling off and discarding their Treasures.

There was, however, a deep dark secret. The Bank of England does not really have that much "gold Reserves". They have used up their gold in two World Wars as well as numerous devaluation attacks on the British Pound Sterling which once was $4.80 for one British Pound. AND, all the while to the last minute falsely denying that the Pound was about to be devalued.

Some believe that the person using the name "Clinton" was ordered, by the secret societies that installed him as President,to start the war against Serbia which had not attacked any foreign country, least of all the U.S. A simple reason: The new Euro Dollar was declining against the so-called "U.S. Dollar". So the Europeans had a financial interest to get the U.S. into a financial disaster called Kosovo, to wreck the Dollar. When it is all said and done, WHO will have to pay for reconstructing the bombed out bridges, factories, and buildings in Serbia? You guessed it: the common ordinary U.S. taxpayer suckers. Not the Rockefellers, Mellons, Morgans, and other ruling families WHO PAY NO TAXES, hiding their fortunes through Foundations and corruption of the Internal Revenue Service.

So to try to force down the price of gold even lower than $250 per ounce, the Bank of England was selling gold it did not really have. Upon the downfall of the Soviets, the Dutch arranged to steal thousands of tons of Soviet gold with the help of criminals in Moscow, the newly rich open market "miracle" entrepeneurs, former Commissars. After all, there was a time when the Moscow government was the world's second largest gold producer. Maybe not longer true with the great decline in production in general since 1991.

In its simplest form, the Bank of England was selling gold borrowed from thieves in Amsterdam. NOTE: The Dutch have been a transit point for Vatican financial schemes. By the way, that nation which is forever fighting off the seas---the Netherlands being below sea level---has used strong-arm tactics to prevent ANY speculating against THEIR currency, the Guilder. Currency speculators know it is a death warrant to mess with the Guilder which remains stable in an unstable world.

Reputed currency gangster George Soros became reportedly aware that the Bank of England was playing a dirty, dangerous game with someone elses' stolen gold. To counter him, the central bank of Britain has reportedly instigated stories such as: Soros is a world-class gangster, which he probably is; Soros is using stolen insider secrets which he probably is; and to appeal to a growing number of Anti-Jew bigots, calling him, through other people's mouths, a "dirty,rotten Jew", thus defaming and slandering all Jews in general.

So Soros and other worldwide pirates joined with the Swiss--who never were sweet angels--to attack the Bank of England. There is a pertinent principle of commodity trading called DELIVERY. The commodity traders sometimes joke that the items you speculate in might someday be ordered to be DELIVERED, like to be dumped on your front lawn. The currency bandits reportedly have been ordering the Bank of England to DELIVER the gold they supposedly sold in auctioning off THEIR "Gold Reserves". That is where is the trouble started. So the price of gold began shooting up, for a number of reasons.

REASON NUMBER ONE: Could the Bank of England DELIVER stolen gold without unraveling the whole Dutch-Former Soviet Gold Robbery? Also, the Dutch through their bank octopus, Algemene Bank Nederland, ABN, have been buying up FOR GOLD, banks in 15 U.S. cities. For example, ABN bought up a long-known reputed money laundry for bribing judges called La Salle National Bank of Chicago, now the flagship in the U.S. for ABN. La Salle National Bank was one of only two out of 20,000 U.S. National Banks in 1964 that refused to disclose their 20 largest stockholders of record when demanded by the House Banking Committee under Chairman, Congressman Wright Patman of Texas. A populist, he caused a report of the national bank ownership to be published in 1964 the first and only time of such in U.S. history that National Banks were requred to list their major owners for a U.S. Government published Report.

REASON NUMBER TWO: It is little known that the U.S. has a contract arrangement with Saudi and Japan. THEIR vast ownership of U.S. Treasury bills, notes, and bonds, are subject to being paid, upon their demand, IN GOLD. No U.S. citizen is allowed to convert their U.S. bonds into gold upon demand. Further, the Persian Gulf oil producers have an arrangement that their sale of oil to the West is payable in so-called "U.S. Dollars", actually, Federal Reserve notes backed by nothing, not gold, not silver, just hot air promises. Upon demand, however, only the Saudis have the right to DEMAND payment in GOLD instead of "U.S. Dollars". So the world price of oil is pegged to the "U.S. Dollar". AND Saudi can get gold for THEIR oil.

Another secret, known to gold mining and marketing experts, is that the Federal Reserve has an unwritten policy of a trip-wire: $410 per ounce. For example, the Fed with the help of the monopoly press in the market crash of 1987, concealed for weeks and weeks that the Fed was lifting heaven and earth to keep gold from topping 500 following the Crash. Over the years, whenever gold even approached $410 per ounce, the Fed and the press-fakers started an attack on gold, such as: gold does not pay interest but lays dormant; gold is a barbaric metal from the past, no longer needed; gold is useless to own it; and similar fables suddenly circulated by the paper money crowd.

I find it interesting that over a period of years, I was the ONLY JOURNALIST to go to the annual meeting called the Chicago Gold Conference, gold experts from all over the world. The press-whores, fronting for the paper money cartel, never printed a single word of the all-day Chicago-based meeting.

Rumors are circulating, believed by savvy folks to have validity, that the Bank of England needs a rescue of 200 BILLION DOLLARS to bail out their blunders. If the Federal Reserve, circulating their Notes masquerading as "U.S. Dollars", has to send that many paper lifeboats to London, where will they get it? And will it sink the "U.S. Dollar"? And by having more so-called "U.S. Dollars", that is Federal Reserve Notes, printed? Of course, that inflation would simply cause gold to go even higher.

Do not be surprised, however, that the monopoly press says little, if anything, about the Bank of England or is it the BUNK OF ENGLAND, and the gold crisis. And no surprise if the press-liars start circulating stories about gold, that, after all, gold is no good to have.

Wags with gold teeth claim, that when gold is high in price, they have to hire a guard for their mouth.

714 (12/6/99; 5:00:05MDT - Msg ID:20394)
Another
http://www.mindspring.com/~samson/another/
I've been rereading Another's old Kitco posts and this one line, from October 1997, keeps jumping out at me:

"The market is changing now, it will go up but you will not be happy with the outcome."

Number Six (12/6/99; 4:59:00MDT - Msg ID:20393)
Thanks Steve... Dutch/Russian link to the BOE sale...
3 things...

1. I guess the Dutch were not part of the group of 11 in the Washington Agreement... or were they?

2. Didn't ANOTHER say that the ECB would be buying Au "with both hands" (or words to that effect) if gold tested <$280???

Surely now this will be a major test of the ECB/BIS commitment?

Let's see if they have any metal...

3. I posted a piece a while back by Sherman Skolnick about the "Dutch Mafia" who were intricately linked with the BOE gold sale... I believe he said the so-called Dutch gold was in reality looted Russian gold...

I will try and dig out the piece...

I will never drink Heineken again!!!!!!!

Stella Artois from now on! Double-Dutch indeed!

SteveH (12/6/99; 4:41:33MDT - Msg ID:20392)
I was wrong...
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/991206/ee.html
it was only 300 tons, pheww!

Gold bullion falls on Dutch central bank sale plan
LONDON, Dec 6 (Reuters) - Gold bullion fell sharply on Monday after the Dutch Central bank said it would sell 300 tonnes of gold in the next five years, including 100 tonnes in the first year, dealers said.

Gold fell to be quoted at $274.50/$275.25 a troy ounce at 0854 GMT from $278.25/$279.00 shortly before the announcement.

SteveH (12/6/99; 4:32:52MDT - Msg ID:20391)
Breaking news and commentary
It is sad that in order for gold and our gold investments to rise, we must counter what seems to be a deluge of Central Bank attacks on gold. In other words, gold investors are facing a tough foe. I don't remember signing up for this battle when I invested in gold-based investments. I thought I was dealing with a fair market. Not so. This is the most rigged market in the world of man. At least there are parties that want to see gold rise. I would sure hate to make a pact with the devil, if the devil was the only one other than gold investors who wanted to see it rise, though. Let's hope this isn't really the case.

Gold stands as a symbol of purity and virtue. It is to that goal then that I invest. Let the forces of good prevail.

In the meantime:

this just in from kitco:

Date: Mon Dec 06 1999 06:23
ROR (Dutch CB) ID#26753:
JUST ANNOUNCED PLANS TO SELL 500 Tonnes of GOLD over 5 years. Just broke below 280 Feb. basis. First England now Holland..the barbarous relic..BUY TECH!!! If we rally today then we will know things have changed. Did someone know about this annoucement before the Brit Auction..6 straight down days ispretty good ..when is the last time the Nasdaq did that...Clear goold coordination..Murphy will go nuts!!

Number Six (12/6/99; 4:29:53MDT - Msg ID:20390)
Stratfor and their LACK of y2k worldwide analysis...
http://www.stratfor.com/services/giu/1999.asp
Just checked out their site again Steve, still no mention of y2k which I find quite astounding...

The above link references their 1999 outlook - not a dicky bird on y2k...

Who are they trying to kid? I am truly perplexed at their attitude to y2k - it's as if they have dismissed it as a non-event... tell that to CityGroup who have just spent $1 billion on remediation of their systems... tell that to FEMA... tell that to John Koskinen... dear oh dear...

714 (12/6/99; 4:29:29MDT - Msg ID:20389)
What is happening to POG?!
Down, down we go, where it stops, no one knows. This is one investment tied too closely to politics. In spite of GATA's noble efforts, POG goes nowhere unless government central banks come out in support of it, as ECB did in September. Looks like another bottom...

SteveH (12/6/99; 4:20:20MDT - Msg ID:20388)
Slowly allowing gun-control parties to rule the day...
In the protecting gold series we have discussed the role that Second Amendment plays in protecting valuables. Gun-control advocates have taken to the courts to get gun manufacturers to stop selling hand guns to the public. I recently came across information that said certain large retailers who have gun sections in their retail outlets are closing them down for fear of suits. In other words, the gun control folks aren't going after the Second Amendment (they know better), they are going after source of guns and ammo. This would likely have the affect of making it unprofitable for anyone to sell guns or ammo, mostly from a litigation stand point.

Knowing what we know from FOA and the BIS/Euro faction, we see that their is a currency war in effet that has as one of its possible outcomes a strong devaluation of the dollar and the American way of life. As an American that bothers me. I would surely hate to see that happen as would the FED and those in the dollar/IMF faction who may be countering the affect of the Euro by manipulating the gold market. I am not saying that I agree with the manipulation of gold. Rather, I am saying that certain counter moves to the Euro must be perceived as absolutely essential for the dollar to survive.

Were the devaluation of the dollar to take place in a manner akin to FOA's scenario, then American's must take every step to ensure that their way of life is maintained, and if not possible, then the principles of that way of life are never forgotten. As most of the principles are found in deep religious roots and also in the US Bill of Rights in the Amendements to the Constitution, these beliefs need be carried on.

It seems totally unacceptable that gun-control advocates can use our court system against the one Amendment that backs in force or might the remaining Rights of the Bill of Rights. In other words, without Americans maintaining their ability to protect their other Rights, what hope would their be for the other Rights to stand the test of time?

America is made strong by its Constitution and the Bill of Rights. The Second Amendment is an individual right to keep and Bear Arms so that the people are armed and protected against all enemies, foreign and domestic. It is not to say they should use those arms, rather enemies knowing of these arms would think twice about attacking the whole of the US or an individual in the US. This is the foundation of the Bill of Rights and without the Second Amendment, the others will surely fall. It is in this time, this crossroad in economic history, that the Second Amendment needs the support of all Americans as a deterrent against those who would conspire against our way of life and our Constitution. Protect gold by protecting the Amdendments, no matter what the political unpopularity of guns are. It must be done or forever loose the rest of the rights guaranteed by the US Constitution.

A challenge for ORO. From a pure excercise of the mind, if you knew that a currency was formed to remove the dollar from the world's reserve status and in that move certain concessions would be lost to the holders of dollars, what top actions would you take as the protector of that dollar?

Number Six (12/6/99; 4:18:05MDT - Msg ID:20387)
SteveH... Stratfor...
CIA front... :o)

SteveH (12/6/99; 3:53:29MDT - Msg ID:20386)
Stratfor
www.stratfor.com
This is relevant as it speaks to how information affects information. Here Stratfor says it speaks of itself, rather it speaks of its affects on what it speaks of. In terms of usagold and our posts, we discuss gold and related interests; we need ask, how does our information affect the those areas we discuss? Does our discussion of gold's manipulation reach the manipulators who then read and take action on what is said here? Do other countries and governmental entities read words spoken here and then file what is said or do they merely classify the words as unimportant and not affective? Stratfor's piece speaks to exactly the issue of the Internet and its affect as both an information source and subject matter influencer. Interesting (but they didn't really say who they were either, nor what their motives are):

STRATFOR.COM Global Intelligence Update
December 6, 1999

Philippine President Decries Analysis

Summary:

A couple of weeks ago, Stratfor forecast that Philippine President
Joseph Estrada might not finish out his term. This week, the
forecast was reported in the Philippines and stirred a huge
controversy: Estrada accused Stratfor of being allied with his
enemies, the Filipino stock market dipped and politicians debated
whether or not Estrada should go. Ultimately, our analysis was
quite correct and we stand by it. But the Filipino debate gives us
cause to examine our role in disseminating intelligence on the
Internet. Normally, Stratfor doesn't talk about Stratfor; this
week, we will.

Analysis:

Stratfor does not normally talk about itself. We are constantly
deluged with e-mail demanding to know who we are, who funds us,
what our qualifications are and what our hidden agenda is. We
usually ignore these demands. First, we find the world infinitely
more interesting and prefer to talk about it rather than ourselves.
Second, we elect to let our product do our talking for us.
Everything we've published remains on our web site permanently. We
expect to be judged by our work, not our resumes.

But we are nearing the end of the year and are preparing new
forecasts for the upcoming year and decade. And as we move forward
we have to consider our role in disseminating intelligence on the
Internet. Normally, intelligence is secret. But as an open-source
intelligence company, we publish our findings, day in and day out,
on the World Wide Web, for all to see. The very act of doing so has
recently put Stratfor in the midst of controversies, such as our
work examining alleged atrocities in Kosovo
[ http://www.stratfor.com/crisis/kosovo/genocide.htm ] and our recent
series on Russia
[ http://www.stratfor.com/CIS/countries/Russia/russia2000/default.htm ].

Just last week we were squarely in a very public controversy in the
Philippines. What made the confrontation all the more strange was
that while the country's press was filled with denunciations and
defenses of our analysis, hardly anyone else in the world was aware
that anything was going on. This leads us to reflect on two strange
but real phenomena. First, there is the ability of organizations on
the Internet to have unpredictable impact around the world. Second,
there is the strange isolation in which such incidents take place.

Let's begin at the beginning. Last month, Stratfor began receiving
reports out of the Philippines about the possibility of a coup
against President Joseph Estrada. Also, people outside the
Philippines who were considering investing there wrote to us and
asked if we knew anything about a potential coup. We put some
people to work checking out the situation. After analyzing all
sorts of information, we came to the conclusion that the
probability of a military coup was extremely low.

We did, however, find that the president's political position was
deteriorating. We concluded that even without a coup, it was
difficult to see how Estrada could survive politically until 2004,
when his term expires. Since the constitution provided for the
removal of the president and since the country is no stranger to
extra-constitutional crises, we concluded that Estrada's days in
office were numbered. The entire analysis can be found at
[ http://www.stratfor.com/asia/specialreports/special98.htm ].

The report was quickly picked up by the Philippine press, some of
which have rocky relations with the president. Several pro-Estrada
companies and government entities had, for example, pulled their
advertising from the Philippine Daily Inquirer during a prior
controversy. On Nov. 19, Estrada met with the paper's owners and
editors and on Nov. 22, the ad boycott was lifted. Stratfor's
analysis of the Filipino situation was, coincidentally, published
on Nov. 22. All seemed to be quieting down a bit. However, on Dec.
1, the Inquirer used the Stratfor piece to level a new blast at
President Estrada,
[ http://www.inquirer.net/issues/dec99/dec01/news/news_5.htm ]. It
used Stratfor and its forecast to raise the possibility that the
President would not serve out his full term.

Instead of merely letting the matter drop, Estrada himself stoked
the controversy. He initially brushed it all aside in a radio
interview later in the day. However, later in the broadcast, as
reporters insisted on a response, Estrada accused Stratfor of being
in the pay of his domestic opposition. In the senate, Estrada
supporters also charged that the report was likely financed by the
opposition. Estrada's political advisor, Angelito Banayo, went so
far as to claim that the Filipino "politico-economic elite" were
behind the Stratfor report.

Things still should have died down. They didn't. On Thursday, Dec.
2 other Philippine papers began weighing in. Commenting on an
impending cabinet reshuffle, some senators suggested that they in
fact have the constitutional right to oust Estrada if they think
him unfit for service. Not letting well enough alone, the president
attacked Stratfor again. The stock market fell 30 points or nearly
2 percent on Thursday, amidst political jitters. On Sunday, the
president charged that a wide array of enemies was unfairly trying
to link him to the Marcos family.

For the record, Stratfor is not in the pay of Estrada's opponents
and has had no contact with them whatsoever. In fact, what was
truly strange last week was that Stratfor received not a single
phone call or inquiry from the media - or anyone else in the
Philippines. The debate may have been triggered by Stratfor's
report but it quickly became secondary to the political struggle.
The opposition used the occasion to beat up on Estrada and the
president - whatever he said about Stratfor - was merely hitting
back at his opponents. We were like the furniture being thrown
around in a barroom brawl, a strange experience.

We continue to feel that our analysis of the prospects of the
Estrada administration is accurate - perhaps even more so than we
thought. The controversy is not so much the result of our work as
genuine political unease in the Philippines. But in a larger sense,
the debate in the Philippines underscores the curiosity of
disseminating intelligence on the Internet.

It demonstrates the disconnect that is peculiar to this medium.
Inside the Philippines: controversy. Estrada's opponents saw the
Stratfor piece as an opportunity to attack the president. The
larger attack on the president was legitimized by a source on the
Internet, not the other way around. Estrada sought to counter-
attack by asserting that rather than being a foreign news source,
Stratfor was merely a tool of his domestic opponents. But outside
the Philippines: blissful ignorance. The debate over Estrada has
hardly become the subject of world discourse.

Stratfor is no stranger to controversy. But an interesting term
from physics comes to mind: the Heisenberg Principle, which holds
that the act of observation effects and changes the observed
phenomenon. In political affairs, the act of observation does not
necessarily change things. But the act of disseminating analysis of
what was observed can have an impact, if it is widely disseminated
and taken seriously.

Traditionally, the sensitive stuff of intelligence forecasting is
secret - and as a result the impact of intelligence has been
diluted. It has been limited to policymakers, intelligence
specialists, generals and carefully managed leaks. Instead,
Stratfor publishes it on the World Wide Web every day. But our
forecasts are decidedly public. And in that realm, it is entirely
possible for intelligence analysis to be swept up into the events
that are being analyzed. It is clear to us: the analysis is
informed by the reality of the situation. We view ourselves as
outside, disinterested observers.

In this case, the various factions in the Philippines confused a
forecast with a desire. More precisely, the Inquirer used our
forecast to attack the president and then, President Estrada
confused us with participants in Filipino politics. Now, Filipino
politics is particularly intense and frequently personal. It is
immediately assumed that anyone commenting on the Philippines has a
vested interest.

And this is what is important about this incident. The Internet
allows information to diffuse around the world. Stratfor can follow
events in the Philippines and other countries in a way not possible
before. It can also comment on those events. Countries like the
Philippines are not used to having outsiders show interest in their
internal affairs unless they intend to profit from that interest,
or unless there is an intense crisis. The idea that someone without
anything to gain should comment on Filipino politics prior to a
crisis is an alien concept not only in the Philippines, but
throughout much of the developing world, which is used to being
ignored or manipulated, but not observed.

Yet that is precisely what the Internet has made possible.
Stratfor, without a crisis or an interest at stake, made a
forecast. We think it correct, but only time will tell. But that
isn't really the point. The point is that there is a new
architecture to the global information system that will allow many
Stratfors to comment on many countries that are used to being
ignored. That changes the way politics is done in many of these
countries. We hope the learning curve is steep and quick.

(c) 1999, Stratfor, Inc. http://www.stratfor.com/

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Simply Me (12/6/99; 2:36:32MDT - Msg ID:20385)
To Marius
Marius (12/5/99; 22:45:02MDT - Msg ID:20376)
"...perfect paranoia equals perfect awareness." (Steven King's Danse Macabre--the author couldn't remember who said it
originally.)

Thanks, Marius. I enjoyed your quotes. Especially the one I copied above. You might also get a kick out of one of my favorite quotes.

"Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you."
I wish I could attribute it properly, but whoever wrote it was "perfectly aware."

simply me

CoinGuy (12/6/99; 2:31:11MDT - Msg ID:20384)
Gold Down Again...
Gold down another 4.55 @274.50 in overseas trading. Ouch!

CoinGuy

Number Six (12/6/99; 2:24:24MDT - Msg ID:20383)
Safra...
From Kitco...December 4, 1999

Iran-Contra & the Safra Mystery
By Robert Parry

Press accounts continue to state erroneously that banker Edmond J. Safra, who died mysteriously when a fire swept his Monaco penthouse apartment, was cleared over involvement in the Iran-contra scandal and related money-laundering investigations.

Contrary to reports in The New York Times and other leading news outlets, Safra's Republic National Bank was implicated � not cleared � in connection with the Iran-contra affair. According to the final report by Iran-contra special prosecutor Lawrence Walsh, an officer of Republic National Bank in New York arranged clandestine cash transfers to Oliver North's secret network in 1985-86.

Police in Monaco have given no indication about a possible motive for the apparent attack on Safra's apartment and the fire that killed the banker and a nurse. As one of the world's richest men, Safra would be an obvious target for robbery, kidnapping and other common crimes. But Safra's connection to secret intelligence operations could become another possible area for investigation as would Safra's questionable banking activities in Russia.

After escaping any Iran-contra fall-out � thanks largely to the U.S. news media's failure to examine the details of Walsh's investigation � Safra's Republic National Bank went on to become a major recipient of money from Russia. Millions of rubles poured into the New York-based bank from Boris Yeltsin's government and from the shadowy world of Russian business.

In reports about Safra's mysterious death, major U.S. newspapers continued to ignore the evidence against Safra's bank that emerged from the Iran-contra investigation. Iran-contra financial records revealed that Republic National Bank handled wire transfers for North's Swiss accounts.

But Walsh also devoted a special section to what he called "the cash drops." That section dealt with surreptitious payments made to Oliver North's operatives � illicit money arranged in New York City by an officer at Safra's Republic National Bank, a woman named Nan Morabia. As part of an immunity deal with Walsh, Morabia described her activities that she said were directed by financier Willard Zucker, who oversaw North's Iran-contra accounts in Geneva, Switzerland.

Morabia testified that she arranged for hundreds of thousands of dollars in "cash drops" to be made to North's operatives, including Albert Hakim and Richard Secord, at Republic National Bank in New York City and at New York hotel rooms. Sometimes, the recipient was required to show a torn dollar bill that matched a torn dollar bill in the possession of the courier.

"Beginning in early 1985, Zucker would contact Nan Morabia and inform her that Hakim or Secord needed a certain amount of cash," Walsh's report stated. "Nan Morabia would communicate this to her husband Elliot, who provided and delivered the cash or had their son, David, deliver it. Zucker wired from Enterprise accounts an equal amount to an account named 'Codelis� at the Trade Development Bank in Geneva. This account was controlled by two brothers, Edgar and Elie Mizrahi, who were family friends of the Marabias."

The purpose of making the dual transactions � the "cash drops" in New York and the parallel deposits in Geneva � was to circumvent U.S. anti-money-laundering statutes, Morabia acknowledged. A year ago, CIA inspector general Frederick Hitz also confirmed that North's contra-support operation worked closely with major Latin American cocaine cartels and drug money launderers. [For details, see Robert Parry's Lost History.]

The Trade Development Bank, where Zucker sent the Geneva funds, was founded by Safra in the 1950s. Beginning with only $1 million, the bank grew into the flagship of Safra's international banking empire with nearly $5 billion in deposits by the early 1980s. Safra sold the bank to American Express in 1983 for $550 million.

After the deal, American Express executives grew suspicious about Safra's rumored links to the Iran-contra operations and drug money laundering. Given their corporate responsibility for the Trade Development Bank, top American Express executives hired private detectives to examine those suspicions, some of which began surfacing in the international press.

When Safra got wind of the American Express investigation, he ordered counter-investigations of American Express, with Safra's private investigators tailing the private eyes working for American Express. Safra then sued American Express for alleged defamation. At that point, American Express chose to avert a costly legal battle and limit the negative publicity by agreeing to apologize and donate $8 million to charities of Safra's choice.

The American Express retreat was big news at the Wall Street Journal and other major newspapers that took Safra's side and portrayed him as an innocent man smeared by a business competitor. Writer Bryan Burrough popularized this view in his 1992 book, Vendetta: American Express and the Smearing of Edmond Safra. The image of Safra as victim became the dominant conventional wisdom among U.S. journalists.

So, by the time Walsh's report appeared in 1993 � confirming that Safra's bank indeed was implicated in both the Iran-contra affair and illicit money laundering � the U.S. news media showed no interest in correcting the record. The false conventional wisdom held.

Now, with Safra's apparent murder, authorities might be expected to begin a thorough examination of the banker's mysterious history. But the American news media still is recycling the false conclusions about Safra's Iran-contra "exoneration." None of the major newspapers, it seems, has examined the documentary record available in Walsh's report and at the National Archives.

The New York Times summed up Safra's alleged Iran-contra tie-in this way: "American Express executives � hired detectives to track down rumors that he [Safra] was involved in the Iran-contra scandal and that his banks were laundering drug money. None of the rumors proved true." [NYT, Dec. 4, 1999]

Ironically, Burrough prefaced his erroneous book, Vendetta, with a quote from Mark Twain: "A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." As the historical record now shows, it was Vendetta's version of events � repeated by The New York Times � that turned out to be the lie.

But there's no indication, at least not in the major American news media, that the truth is busy putting on its shoes.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So we have Iran Contra ties, the outing of Arafat's billions, and the expose of Russian mafia money laundering in a time confluence here...

Simply Me (12/6/99; 2:11:42MDT - Msg ID:20382)
To Canuck
Canuck (12/5/99; 18:38:30MDT - Msg ID:20350)
Reference to Stranger's post:"...people who hold gold year in and year out in quantities which are disproportionate to their other
investments are squandering any opportunity of ever achieving wealth in their lifetime."
Canuck: "Anyone that disagrees with his statement above doesn't
want full bang for his buck."

My reply: You haven't been paying attention. Gold goes "bang" but once
in a lifetime....and once is enough. Besides, the "bang" you'll hear is
sound of your Money Market account imploding and only physical gold
will survive the blast. THAT's it's value.

Canuck:"Furthermore, IMHO, buying gold is an investment, when gold reaches is maximum
buying power, are you going to hold it ?

My reply: If at that time, gold provides an opportunity to improve my
family's long term standard of living through trade for other things of
lasting value...such as real estate....then, yes, I may trade some.
But never ALL, because gold IS a thing of lasting value. My children
will need protection in their lifetimes, too! And what kind of a parent
would I be if I left them only paper, or worse, electronic digits, both
of which can be devalued (read inflated or stolen, it's all the same)
if a "Rothschild" wakes up cranky!...or a "Greenspan" decides to fire
up the fiat presses.

Canuck: "We often rant and rave that the stock markets have peaked and they cannot carry this
curve any longer, it has reached its maximum. Gold will do the same, therefore the timing of purchasing and the timing of selling
is ABSOLUTELY ALL THAT MATTERS."

My reply: No, that is not all that matters. Gold is the historically
proven CORE of any long-term wealth building. After food, clothing,
shelter and education...gold. Then, when you have enough gold to defend
your economic condition against all storms...get some real estate
(which the government will let you keep as long as you can pay their
rental fee called taxes). Then you can take your excess wealth and
gamble in any casino where you like the odds.

The price of gold in US paper will go up and go down. When it goes
down, buy more. When it goes up, expand your holdings. This is not a
guessing-game. It is a multi-generational stategy that has been proven
over thousands of years! And at this moment in time, you have the
unique opportunity through the luck of timing, the freedom of the
internet, and the generous sharing of wisdom available at this forum
to set your family on a path that will provide them with unprecedented
(for us little folk) economic protection against the financial storms
ahead.

I have even seen molecular nano-technology touted as a reason not to
hold gold. If "mnt" can create gold and everything else we need, then
great! When reality is a world with no more greed, no more corruption,
no more vendettas, no more envy, no more war, and absolutely no-one is
trying to influence my thoughts, or control my actions or the mnt
technology. I may feel free enough to reconsider my defensive strategy.
Until then, never.

One question. What store of wealth do you hold to stabilize your
household economy against personal trade imbalances and
currency fluctuations that your domestic income can't cover?

(I hope I have not bored to tears those who already "get it!")

May I live long enough to see molecular nano-technology
make my golden parachute out of virtual particles.
Leptons and gluons and quarks, oh my!

simply me

Number Six (12/6/99; 0:56:19MDT - Msg ID:20381)
Safra...
From the London Daily telegraph - note - even this piece has inconsistencies i.e. the bodyguard and the alleged conversation between safra and his wife on the cellphone...

============================================================

EDMOND SAFRA, one of the world's richest men and head of a worldwide financial empire, died yesterday in a fire at his penthouse in Monaco after a pre-dawn raid by two hooded attackers armed with knives.

There was speculation in the world's financial markets last night that his death could have been a result of an attempted contract murder by the Russian mafia. Mr Safra, 67, known as the "doyen of private bankers," took refuge in a bathroom with his step-granddaughter's nanny when the men burst into the luxury apartment overlooking the Mediterranean. Both died from suffocation after the intruders started a fire outside the flat on Monte Carlo's Avenue d'Ostende.

A bodyguard was stabbed in the stomach during the attack and was recovering in hospital last night. The financier's wife and his step-granddaughter escaped unhurt as they slept safely in another locked wing of the apartment. Mr Safra was listed earlier this year as one of the world's top billionaires by Forbes magazine.

Police in Monaco were last night investigating whether the attack was linked to Mr Safra's business activities. He was regarded as one of the most successful private bankers of this century. A source in London's financial community quoted by the French news agency AFP said last night: "He knew for a long time that there was a contract on his life. He hired bodyguards." Another source raised the possibility of a Russian mafia link.

The banker had just sealed an agreement <]ink>to sell his New York private bank, Republic Bank, and its Luxembourg affiliate, Safra Republic Holdings, to London-based HSBC, which owns the Midland Bank, for �6.3 billion. He stood to gain at least �1.7 billion personally from the sale. The acquisition has been troubled by <Link>allegations of irregularities within a securities trading subsidiary, Princeton Note, which is being investigated by financial regulators in Japan.

Republic Bank, the third largest in the New York area in terms of deposits, had 83 branches in the greater New York area, as well as eight branches in Florida and 36 offices abroad. Mr Safra had built up his banking empire through contacts with the Sephardic Jewish community, who had been expelled from Spain in 1492 and settled throughout the Mediterranean.

Justice sources in Monaco said Daniel Serdet, the public prosecutor, had opened a criminal investigation into the deaths at the luxury six-storey turn-of-the-century building. The Monaco press office said security services were alerted to the attack at Mr Safra's home at 5.30am and that the fire started outside his flat before spreading inside. It took firefighters three hours to extinguish the blaze.

An official at Safra Republic in Luxembourg said he believed the merger with HSBC would go ahead by the end of the year as planned. He said he had no further details on the circumstances or reasons behind Mr Safra's death. HSBC said it was "appalled" to learn the news of Mr Safra's death, and its shares slipped two per cent temporarily as investors worried that it might delay the takeover of Republic.

Sir John Bond, the HSBC chairman, said: "HSBC will uphold the banking tradition and integrity which were the hallmarks of Edmond's life." Mr Safra was born in Beirut and started his career in private banking at the age of 16. At 24 he founded his first bank in Brazil, the first of three in different parts of the world. In 1966 he founded the Republic National Bank in New York.

Last year he disclosed that he had Parkinson's disease. He was withdrawing from active banking, although he said he would ensure a smooth transition in the sale to HSBC. There was also speculation that his decision to sell the bank could be due to heavy losses incurred on Russian securities last year. Republic was one of the largest foreign victims of Russia's financial crisis.

The Monaco press service said police, firemen and specialist units had rushed to Mr Safra's apartment building after being alerted to the break-in. Such violent incidents are rare in the principality, which is known for its strong police force and widespread video surveillance systems which protect the rich and famous who live there.

Underlining the significance of the killing, Monaco's Minister of State, Michel Leveque, and the Interior minister Philippe Deslandes visited the crime scene. Monaco's Assistant Prosecutor, Catherine Le Lay, said: "The apartment is immense, and within it there are two separate wings, one for Mr Safra and one for his wife. Mr Safra was in his wing, which consisted of three rooms - his bedroom, a nursing laboratory and a bathroom. With him were two nurses.

"The police received a call from the receptionist of the apartment building. She had been alerted by the male nurse who had staggered from the apartment which occupies the fifth and sixth floors, down to the ground floor. He had been injured with a knife with a 6in blade. The police arrived on the scene extremely quickly, but when they arrived they were unable immediately to access the apartment, which is protected by steel reinforced doors.

"When they did gain entry with the firemen, the fire had already taken hold in the flat, which was extremely difficult to bring under control. When the police were finally able to penetrate the flat, they found Mr Safra dead where he had taken refuge in the bathroom with his nurse, Vivianne Torent, who also died.

"His wife had not even been roused by the drama. It is difficult to convey just how big this flat is, but I have never seen anything like it. She was separated by a good distance from her husband and each door was reinforced. By the time the firemen had mastered the fire, smoke was only beginning to affect her wing of the flat, which would have rendered her more deeply unconscious. We still don't know how the attackers got into the flat, or how they escaped."

5th Dec '99

SHIFTY (12/6/99; 0:40:56MDT - Msg ID:20380)
(No Subject)
The face value of the gold eagle coins let's us all see the value of a "Federal Reserve Note" . I need about four times as many Federal Reserve Note Dollors if I want to save constitutional money.

SHIFTY (12/6/99; 0:20:36MDT - Msg ID:20379)
Dr. Paul H.
Dr. Paul H. I agree. One question you may be able to answer for me. I have some gold eagle's 1998-1999 's. Why is the face value only $50. per oz. $25.,per 1/2 oz ,and only$10. for 1/4 oz. , then the 1/10 oz. is $5. For forty dollors U.S gold ," four 1/4 oz.@ $10.00 = $40.00 face value The 1 oz of US gold face value in a single coin is $50.00 . That's $10.00 U.S gold face value higher. What do you think?

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