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Welcome to the USAGOLD Gold Discussion Archives. The archives of this gold discussion forum are a treasure trove of information to educate investors about protecting their wealth through portfolio diversification with private gold ownership. The discussion forum also covers the wider issues of the past, present, and future role of gold in international monetary policy and the dynamics of the modern gold markets...   (Discussion Forum Hall of Fame) (The Gold Trail) ("Thoughts!" by ANOTHER)   The opinions posted by all guests are expressly their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the management or staff of USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals. The hosting of the public discussion shall therefore not be construed as an endorsement by USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals of any of the opinions posted here.

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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 1/5/2002
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

(Yesterday's Discussion.)

uponroof (1/5/02; 23:12:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 67747)
NEWS! *** Hillary Clinton on TV exposes the gold cartel! ***
Just pulling your legs....sorry, this is a response to the 'GATA and Nader' controversy:
********

Politics makes for strange bedfellows. Gold is political. That should be all that needs to be said, but let me elaborate just a little.

Schmoozing of this sort increases visibility and builds an understanding which crosses all parties, social-economic standings, ethnic backgrounds, etc, etc. In fact the public notices more when issues of commom concern are embraced by folks with vastly differing agendas. That kind of universal appeal is news in itself, and news is what we need.

Would anyone be offended if Hillary Clinton devoted her next dozen press conferences to exposing the gold cartel? Personally, I can't stomach the bit.....er, lady, and despise most, if not all, of what she stands for. But, if she is willing to line up with us on this political issue, I'll take her (no, not in that way!), meet with her, discuss plans for attack on our commom enemy, and encourage the support she brings to speak out and be heard.

No, it's not easy to take this position, but we must remember:

"War is hell" and "All's fair in love, politics and war"

If we're going to restrict ourselves to selected political allies in this war, we might as well sell our gold right now.

I know, Ralph Nader is so far left he makes Hillary look like William F. Buckley...BUT:
PEOPLE LISTEN TO HIM.
HE RAN FOR PRESIDENT LAST YEAR.
HIS LIBERAL SUPPORTERS ARE VERY GOOD AT GETTING ATTENTION.

Sorry, I know this is unnatural to say the least. Liberals are the last folks one would wish for, or expect, to fight for conservative values (of any sort) BUT...I would like to win this fight. Even if it means with the strangest of political bedfellows. .02

Chris Powell (1/5/02; 20:42:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 67746)
If Nader can help gold, that's fine with GATA
We at GATA might have expected that our chairman's
using a conference sponsored by Ralph Nader to spread
the word about the surreptitious suppression of the
price of gold would bother some folks. But that
something called the Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee
would favor anti-trust law should hardly surprise
Invisible Hand or anyone else.

In any case, in our struggle to liberate gold, we'll be
glad to associate with people without much regard to
their ideology. If we can find support on the political
left for putting gold's enemies in their place, so be
it. One's biggest enemy must come first. As Churchill
said: "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would find an opportunity
in the House of Commons to make a favorable reference
to the Devil."

If Invisible Hand thinks the destruction of free markets
is bad when accomplished by the government but is good
when accomplished by private parties, he can be no friend
of anyone who believes in gold's traditional monetary
functions. Those of us who do believe in gold will find
no consolation in its being killed by J.P. Morgan/Chase
rather than by Alan Greenspan, for gold will be dead
either way.

CHRIS POWELL, Secretary/Treasurer
Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee Inc.


Chris Powell (1/5/02; 20:36:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 67745)
If Nader can help gold, that's fine with GATA
We at GATA might have expected that our chairman's
using a conference sponsored by Ralph Nader to spread
the word about the surreptitious suppression of the
price of gold would bother some folks. But that
something called the Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee
would favor anti-trust law should hardly surprise
Invisible Hand or anyone else.

In any case, in our struggle to liberate gold, we'll be
glad to associate with people without much regard to
their ideology. If we can find support on the political
left for putting gold's enemies in their place, so be
it. One's biggest enemy must come first. As Churchill
said: "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would find an opportunity
in the House of Commons to make a favorable reference
to the Devil."

If Invisible Hand thinks the destruction of free markets
is bad when accomplished by the government is good when
accomplished by private parties, he can be no friend
of anyone who believes in gold's traditional monetary
functions. Those of us who do believe in gold will find
no consolation in its being killed by J.P. Morgan/Chase
rather than by Alan Greenspan, for gold will be dead
either way.

CHRIS POWELL, Secretary/Treasurer
Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee Inc.

The Invisible Hand (1/5/02; 18:07:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 67744)
If we depend upon Ralph Nader, may we all be damned!

GATA lays its hope these days on Ralph Nader, at least on a Conference soon to be organised by him.

Indeed in a message sent on Saturday, January 5, 2002 at 12:39pm ET, GATA's Secretary/Treasurer appends Ralph Nader's latest newspaper column concerning a conference Nader has called for Monday in Washington about the work of the Federal Reserve, to be attended by the GATA Chairman.

The column starts by saying that the Federal Reserve wields enormous power over the national economy and is allowed to make its decisions in secret, Fed minutes being destroyed or heavily edited when the Fed made critical decisions.

In sponsoring this conference, Nader hopes "that we can place a spotlight on this dark corner of our democracy and begin a campaign for a more open process in establishing economic policies that affect the daily lives of working families and well-being of the entire economy" because "the Federal Reserve does not face the normal checks and balances of the congressional appropriations and budget process" and therefore "the Federal Reserve feels free to operate as virtually a separate government".

Greenspan's Objectivist past would make him unsuitable to carry out the Federal Reserve's wide-ranging regulatory power for consumer protection over the financial community.

So the conference is about taking "a deep look at how well this former foe of regulation is representing the public in his current position as chief government regulator of banks, big financial services corporations, and the economy".

=

Let me first state this: Earlier in these pages, I have criticised GATA because it (s name) relies on Anti-Trust (law) against private corporations. I do not criticise GATA when, or to the extent, it criticises government for manipulation. I only criticise it when it advocates the use of antitrust law against corporations which have no links to governments.

If I can agree with the Conference's objective of looking at the secrecy of the Fed's decision making, I can however not refrain from looking at who's talking. Ralph Nader criticises Greenspan for his past. Well, let's look at Mr. Nader's past and present ideas.

One does not have look far for Nader's ideology, it's all in the main objective of the Conference which Nader describes as taking "a deep look at how well this former foe of regulation is representing the public in his current position as chief government regulator of banks, big financial services corporations, and the economy".

Nader's real objective is thus the regulation of banks, big financial services corporations, and the economy. In other words, the real objective is the attack on corporate America through the attack on its watchdog who would be failing in its task.

Nader is no newcomer in the area. He started writing in the early seventies. The books he co-authored in 1976 were titled "Taming the giant Corporation" and "Constitutionalizing the Corporation: The Case for the Federal Chartering of Giant Corporations"

The books and the Monday Conference are only the first steps on a long journey. What is this journey, which should be, taking Nader's age into consideration, nearing its end, of which GATA wants to be a part? I'll quote from Robert HESSEN's book "In Defense of the Corporation" (Stanford: Hoover Institution, 1979, pp. 111 et seq.)

As I said Federal Chartering of corporations and questioning the representative qualities of Alan Greenspan are only the first steps of a long journey. But we are entitled to know the final destination: Nader's vision of an ideal society. But this is a subject which Nader rarely discusses … so his philosophy must be pieced together from the hints scattered in his numerous articles, interviews and reports.
Nader's critics usually call him a statist because he attacks business and calls for greater governmental controls. But for Nader, statism is only a transitional astage. …
What is his ideal society? Nader wants people to live in small, self-sufficient communities …
In order to make this vision a reality, giant corporations have to be broken up and their individual plants and factories transformed into cooperatives owned by their customers, not by their workers who might, Nader fears, pursue their own advantage rather than making service to the community their highest ideal…
Rousseau's "The Social Contract" (1762) seems to be the seminal source of Nader's political philosophy. …
For Rousseau and his intellectual descendants, the appeal of a small community is that it will be easier to enforce self-renunciation and conformity. …
As Gar Alperovitz, the man whom Nader recommended to President-elect Carter for an appointment to the Council of Economic Advisers as a man with fresh ideas and insights to contribute to the nation wrote "the key to making the whole system work will be to reduce ‘individual and community motivation for exorbitant living standards’ " (ALPEROVITZ, "Notes towards a Pluralist Economy", p.85).

Is this what (the) GOLD (Antitrust Action Committee) stands for?

R Powell (1/5/02; 18:02:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 67743)
Econoclast
Agree entirely. However, I have been warned by mikal to restrain my "premature outbursts of Greenspin exuberance". I have requested that this requirement be suspended when POS breaks above the 2001 high around 4.80 but haven't yet received my outburst clearance papers.
Hey, mikal, can I yell when POS clears 480?
If I do, you probably won't even hear me over the noise some others will be making, no?
Waiting to yell
Rich

Econoclast (1/5/02; 16:18:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 67742)
It is fun, isn't it Rich?
The PM markets are the most intriguing and interesting (fun) place in the world! The most imaginative brains in Hollywood can not dream up anything close to the real life story we're all trying to decipher.

Old Yeller (1/5/02; 16:01:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 67741)
Robot Guy'sourdough;Canadian monetary concerns

As a resident of BC,I share your concerns,especially now as the impostion of lumber tariffs and duties brings our efficient and modernized forest industry to it's knees.As our currency underperforms and our forest companies' financial health deteriorates,it opens up opportunities for US producers to scoop up undervalued assets with incredible long term potential for fractions of what they're worth.One of the treasures of the BC forest is the red cedar,an incredibly beautiful and versatile wood that is more or less totally depleted in the lower 48.For some reason,this wood is included in the tariffs,denying both the free market a reasonable price;as well as the producer a reasonable profit.Why is this fact overlooked on the authors of the tariff?

I would submit that the not so indifferent powers that shape US Economic policy are well aware of this inconsistency.When the smoke clears on this travesty,our resources will be US owned and the profits from our public assets will flow to those who have hatched and promulgated this tariff war over the past 20 odd years.

It is increasingly obvious that our politicians have sold our heritage and potential out,by hitching our destiny to the US bandwagon.We are regaled on almost a daily basis on our hapless currency and the inevitability of adopting the US dollar.Does it have to be this way?

Of course not,the Bank of Canada is well aware that a smaller country can have an independent strong currency that garners world respect.Look at the SF as an example.Instead of asserting our potential and diversifying our reserves,they continually sell our gold and increase the US dollar reserves.They also ape US monetary policy and issue no objections as our biased and cowed media work diligently on promoting our national inferiority complex.

Meanwhile,the people of the country soldier on,forgetting our past history and accomplishments as we are slowly subsumed as lessor participants in the American way.It is extremely frustrating to me that a nation founded on the frontiers,that has a long history of facing down extreme hardships and prospering in spite of the odds,would allow herself to befall this fate.

Argh,where have all the true Canadians gone?

Max Rabbitz (1/5/02; 15:48:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 67740)
RS on Article 1, Section 8, Clause 5
I think the lawyers would argue that the Treasury still coins money and the Exchange Stabilization Fund regulates the value with respect to foreign coins. However, it is clear to me that private banking interests have become the supreme power in the land and that Congress no longer regulates our money. We are not so different from Argentina. Our time will come.

Best Wishes,
Max

RS (1/5/02; 15:06:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 67739)
Max Rabbitz...
The other question of course, is where is the authority for Congress to delegate the power to coin money to a private corporation (the "Fed")?

....................................................
Article 1, Section 8, Clause 5:
The Congress shall have Power To... coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
....................................................

Be well, and thanks for your reply!



Max Rabbitz (1/5/02; 14:49:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 67738)
Article 1, Section 10
RS....I agree the Constitution is the highest law and intent (Federalist papers) is important. Alexander Hamilton, our first secretary of the Treasury, always wanted and pushed for a National Bank with fractional reserve type powers of expansion. Washington supported Hamilton, perhaps because he saw the need to fund the Federal Government and pay off debts. Without review I'm speculating that the Federalists, especially Hamilton, wanted Article 1 section 10 partly to limit the ability of States to compete with credit creation by their future National Bank. Jefferson thought Hamilton a monster and his National Bank the ruin of free men (visons of the Fed). John Adams thought true wealth was found in land and seemed to have had little understanding of banking. However, Abigail and later John found Hamilton to be treacherous and had little regard for him. Perhaps the key here is the intentions of James Madison, the father of the Constitution. In the end the Hamiltonians won. I need to study this more but it is not clear to me from the strict written word that limitations were placed on the Federal Government with regard to money creation. At least this is what the lawyers would argue.






TownCrier (1/5/02; 13:47:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 67737)
Jensen: Africa suffers still from non-retiring despots
http://www.usagold.com/gildedopinion/Jensen/20020105.html
In the wake of recent conversation here about government powers in Africa, this is a timely piece by international editor Holger Jensen.

------Robert Mugabe, the only president Zimbabwe has ever had in its 21 years of independence... has done everything he can to cow his opponents but faces a strong electoral challenge in March from Morgan Tsvangirai, leader of the Movement for Democratic Change... its support has grown because of Mugabe's misrule. Inflation is 100 percent and rising, interest rates are above 70 percent and unemployment is estimated at 60 to 80 percent. Investor confidence in Zimbabwe is nil and foreign aid has dried up because of Mugabe's seizure of white-owned farms to resettle landless blacks. What he calls "land reform" has caused severe shortfalls in food production and export crops. Crippled by a lack of fuel and foreign exchange, Zimbabwe now faces famine.

Unfazed by this looming disaster, Mugabe launched his bid for re-election by declaring "real war" on his opponents. This translated into rising political violence against the predominantly black MDC, stepped up farm seizures and a host of new laws suppressing freedom of speech, freedom of assembly and even freedom to vote.---------

(click URL for full article)

R.

sourdough (1/5/02; 13:14:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 67736)
Canada`s "deep storage gold"
Lot`s of discussion about nationalization in S.A.
Who owns Canada`s "in ground" gold reserves?
Do not the people of Canada, represented by the Government`s of Canada, own all Canadian resources?
Be it oil,gas, base metals, forests,water, and Precious Metals?
In return for various taxes on production and export, the government allows the rights to these commodities to be produced and sold.
Canada produces between 150 and 200 tonnes of gold annually.
I would think a doubling of gold price would cause production to rise to surpass the 200 tonne mark.
If /when worldwide economic disaster erupts and the world returns to a time tested gold based fiat, would Canada nationalize commodity reserves?
Somebody has to produce and refine these commodities to a point where they are in a form ready for sale. Would not the preferred method be to adjust the tax to allow a return on investment, decided by government, just as utilities are (have) been handled?
Would the government/s of Canada require tax to be payed in the form of the commodity?
If a Canadian gold producer is granted a license to mine and sell gold that allows them a return of 25-50%, the government would take the rest (100-150 tonne per annum).
We have a national debt of 600 billion Canadian((not sure of provincial obligations), If Canada is on the ball, in which currency should they be converting our debt to, our own?, U.S?, Euro?, yen?
Which currency will fall the most in relation to Canadian? Should we be converting all national debt into U.S dollars? While taking tax from gold production in GOLD?(and purchasing the rest with our own currency or foreign reserves)
Should the CDN government make efforts to have our citizens replace some of our private paper assets with gold?
Does the fall of America mean the fall of Canada?
30 million people owe 600 billion CDN (SOME TO THEMSELVES)with potential assets of 200 tonnes of GOLD annually.
For myself, I`m happy to be a Canadian, living in Canada, we are rich and don`t even realize it.
How many people in the U.S,with how much government/state debt, and how much gold assets annually?
It is difficult to give everyone free health care and it costs us dearly but that is what WE choose to spend our wealth on. Maybe we should hear the phrase "GOD BLESS CANADA", and "THANKS FOR LETTING ME BE BORNE HERE."
P.S. come on up, we could use more people, especially of the type that visit here!

R Powell (1/5/02; 12:50:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 67735)
MarkeTalk and silver
MarkeTalk, it's not often enough that we hear from you! It's also encouraging to hear that someone as close to the market as yourself now holds a bullish outlook on silver.
There has been, as you mentioned, speculation that Enron was short silver. Why? If they were just shorting silver to raise fiat capital, then were they also short gold? There may be much more to come from Enron's default and, with closer bookkeeping scrutiny, the coming financial shortfall of others.
Buffet managed to take possession of 89 million ounces of his 129.7 million purchase in 1997-8. When, as you mentioned, Philbro (Solomon) was accused of trying to corner the market, Buffet was forced to reveal himself. I've always wondered why the lawsuit was shortly thereafter dropped. Can it be that he made a deal, that being to let the shorts off the hook through leasing (instead of delivering) the remaining 40.7 million ounces? So, instead of delivery, the shorts found themselves paying the lease interest and still owing the posponed delivery. In return for this arrangement, the suit was dropped.
Also, rumor has it that the squeeze, centered in London, may have been precipitated by Buffet's decision not to renew again these ongoing leases. Perhaps, but it may not be that complicated. It may be that the supply of available silver for leasing is simply drying up but, because of his name and fame, Buffet has once again come into the spotlight. He may be quite happy to renew the leases at the now inflated lease rates. Either way, whether Buffet initiated or supply initiated, the squeeze does not work unless all other available supply is scarce.
That Buffet moved his physical holdings out of the country is perfectly understandable when we remember that, as a commodity trader for Solomon Brothers in his younger days, he once did corner the silver market by exercising a great number of call options even though these calls were out-of-the-money when exercised. The story goes that the government asked Solomon to back off when the market could not deliver (even at the higher call prices). In return, supposedly, the government covered Solomon's loses. Even if the story is only half true, Mr. Buffet certainly is no stranger to the silver market.
Whenever I try to figure out what's happening in silver I always seem to return to the basics of supply and demand which, as Butler and others have correctly (IMHO) assessed, is screaming that price rationing should have started years ago and POS should be much higher. If my "supposin" that Buffet took an IOU and interest payments for 40.7 million ounces in early 1998 instead of physical delivery, then what would have the POS reached in Feb. 1998 if he had demanded physical delivery?
Most any market can be squeezed if enough longs stand for delivery, but the outstanding feature of silver is that the world has consumed more than production for years and, most importantly, we are running out. What is left is probably in strong hands and demand is inelastic. If the POS does really rise for lack of only 40 or 50 million ounces, then I'll be more convinced of the suspect total world supply estimates I'm using. Whether through a market squeeze which always has the connotation of manipulation, or the natural squeeze that has to result when immediate supply can not meet demand, the time will come when it does happen (unless there is a moutain range of pure silver hidden somewhere). It should happen shortly depending upon how strongly the remaining supply resists buying efforts.
I guess if this market were more transparent it wouldn't be as much fun and this potential money making opportunity would never have existed. It certainly is a great puzzle!
Please keep your ears open to whatever sources you have and don't be a stranger here. We need all the information and opinions we can digest and you have unique sources and sound opinions.
Thanks
Rich


Gandalf the White (1/5/02; 10:28:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 67734)
Gimil's Question --- < ; - )>>
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_02/wallybently010402pv.html
Gimli_ (1/5/02; 08:30:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 67732)
What Silver Mining Stock Is Best To Buy?
=======
There was some such USAGOLD Forum discussion within the last week with some suggestions, BUT, the above link (from another site) is an EXTENSIVE discussion for your own evaluation. BUT REMEMBER, old friend Gimil, HOLDING on to PRECIOUS, (physical that is) may be better than paper.
<;-)


RS (1/5/02; 08:53:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 67733)
@ Max Rabbitz
Max,
There was much talk about money and government debt at the Constitutional convention. Notes kept at the time by George Mason and others tell us that it was one of the big hot-button topics.
After all, the Revolution was sparked primarily by money issues. The English crown was deeply in debt to the european bankers, and this prompted King George to lean on the colonys for every penny he could squeeze out of us.

Also, to finance the war the Continental Congress was forced to issue scrip which was greatly inflated during the course of the war. Thus the orign of the expression "not worth a Continental".

At the time, there was no expectation that the Federal government should ever have any direct interaction with individual Americans. The intention was that the several States, where the people had direct representation, would have far more power than the federal government.

It was felt that by limiting the States to dealing in specie, it would prevent the widespread introduction of fiat. If the States were limited to the collection of taxes and legal fines in specie only, then the people would always think of gold and silver as money.

This works only so long as the people know and protect the Constitution as the rulebook and "operating manual" for our government.

Gimli_ (1/5/02; 08:30:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 67732)
What Silver Mining Stock Is Best To Buy?
For several years, I have had half my retirement account invested in PMM funds. Assuming silver is ready to break out again, I would like to put some sidelined cash directly into the most solid silver mining stock. Would that be SIL?


Gimli

Max Rabbitz (1/5/02; 08:22:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 67731)
RS and Money
The Constitution of the united States, Article 1, Section 10: "No State shall... make ANY THING but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts..."

Just thinking.....this says nothing about what the Federal Government is allowed to do. We now have Federal Reserve Notes not State Notes.



RS (1/5/02; 07:51:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 67730)
@ Steve H.... (re: 1/4/02; 22:14:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 67714)
Steve H quote:
So, the next time you go to the voting polls, ask yourself, what kind of political party system allowed gold to be relegated to an evil asset that could be sold at auctions as a non-performing inventory asset of Central Banks? Who hired the Harvard MBA's who learned about Spreadsheets but forgot about sound economic theory? Who are these people and do they represent and have they represented our best interests?
---------------------------------------------------
Steve, bless you for posting this!


If we go to the polls and vote for state and local representatives who knowingly ignore Article 1, Section 10 of the Constitution, how can we complain about ANYTHING they do?
And if we allow our local/state elected officials to ignore the law of the land, then how can we expect the federal officials to behave any better?
If we then find that they blatantly ignore the rest of the Constitution (such as the 2nd Amendment), why should we be surprised?
There has been much discussion here regarding the possible seizure of privately held gold. We rely upon the provisions of the 5th Amendment and the 2nd Amendment to protect our private property from the force of government abuse.
Why should we expect the administration to have any more respect for these particular provisions of our cherished governing document than they have for Article 1, Section 10?

The current administration is not our government. The Constitution is our government.
If we endorse its abrogation at the polls, what then are we left with?

There is only one basis for sound government: honest money. Without it, in the end we will have nothing WORTH governing.

..................................................
The Constitution of the united States, Article 1, Section 10:
"No State shall... make ANY THING but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts..."
..................................................
Un-amended, and still the law of the land.


Christian (1/5/02; 07:47:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 67729)
$ appreciation = increase the value of
The supply of $'s (debt) is increasing 8 times as fast as GDP. More and more money goes into debt service, thus creating a shortage of dollars. This shortage is causing the value of the $ to increase. In my area (concervative area) average household debt went from $40,000 to $90,000 during the last 5 years. That average $40,000 x .085% = $3,400 interest is still cheaper then todays $90,000 x .075% = $6,750 interest cost. Now add on the additional cost of higher monthly principal cost, property taxes and the added cost of upkeep. The money supply can not exceed the debt level for money has to be borrowed into existence before it enters circulation. ********* The stock market is going up and will continue to go up because the FED is doing most of the buying. Index mutual funds are the best buy because they buy what the FED is buying. The index funds are also the best to short when the FED is selling. We should have another week or two of up movement in the stock market before the selling starts. The FED is doing this to make a profit. The FED is not a charitable institution. It is not a governmental institution. It is privatly owned and has the right to print money at a cost of $0.025 cost per $1,000. The Argentina debt default is not a loss to our banking interests. After all we gave them worthless paper as a loan in return for physical raw or proccessed commodities. The Fed owns the GSE's and in the same way when we the ever stupid people borrow to buy a $100,000 home it costs them $2.50 to provide that $100,000 and you the ever stupid borrower has the privilege to slave for the rest of you stupid life to pay back that $100,000 plus interest. This is free slavery which is like free trade. Free trade = our central banks give them our chits that cost them nothing in exchange for goods where as in free slavery, we the ever more stupid borrower borrow chits that we have to pay back plus interest that cost the central banks nothing. The more educated we are the dummer we get.

Cavan Man (1/5/02; 06:50:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 67728)
Dollar Devaluation As A Tactic To Save/Help The System
This might be an excellent topic for discussion here drawing upon the fine intellects that vist the friendly confines of USAGOLD.

Cavan Man (1/5/02; 06:48:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 67727)
miner49er
Thank you Sir for your #67596. It is an excellent post and I am still pondering it. There is also some extraordinary value (apparently anyway) for buyers of US equities at lofty multiples relative to fundamentals and common sense yes?

Cavan Man (1/5/02; 06:45:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 67726)
Canuck
RE: Dollar de-valuation
A devaluation of the dollar to the tune of 30% would significantly affect sovereign forex reserves so the other CB's would, of necessity and agreement, have to play along. Will they allow the dollar this privilage? There is an alternative now in the Euro. Of course, the ECB could play along knowing full well their reserves are redundant anyway and gold is their cover. Their consent to this tactic would be a good faith gesture and would certianly hasten the rise of their own fiat monster. The Euro zone has an escape mechanism now that is functioning so they could agree to this. However, what of China and Japan??

Canuck (1/5/02; 04:49:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 67725)
Interesting ramble from another forum
Quote:

"The Master of the Universe seems invisible at a time of extreme stress. That can mean only one thing...he's gone and his replacement is already calling the shots...really BIG shots.

Susan Schmidt Bies, Olsen and the departure of Ed Kelly signal a sea change at the Fed. See...the current FOMC folks KNOW about the gold manipulation, the incoming guys and gals DON'T. So the Chairman has to "explain" the situation to them gently as they set up their desks.

Hearing that it is Official Fed policy to smash the economies of already debilitated Sub-Saharan Africa so thirty somethings in the US can have three suvs, two homes plus a vacation villa just isn't going to go down too easily. Unless there's a NEW Chairman and a new plan to implement. A plan that scraps the Rubin/Greenspan/Summers weak gold era in place of a strong industry, weak dollar and a back-of-the-class financial sector. With the rancorous Enron hearings ahead, you really didn't think the Master of the Universe would survive did you? Can you see him fielding questions about how he brushed aside derivatives regulation last year? Or explaining the $37 Trillion in derivatives concentrated in TWO banks? [JPMC and Citibank]

There will be carnage in the financial sector with bank failures to be deftly hidden. After all the Japanese have had ten years of invisibly insolvent banks for us to emulate. Remember that the yen is falling and the yen value of gold is moving up smartly and THIS good precious metals scenario is not avoidable. But how can the Fed get out of this mess? There might be a way...

Devalue the dollar. Chapman has a source that indicates this will happen at about 19%. But Chapman's source probably doesn't know that it is much worse than the source knows. This means the deval will most likely be greater than 19%. More like 30%. Things like this ALWAYS change at the 11th hour as the stench boils over and the need-to-know guys learn that they didn't know everything.

Bush wins with a deval by supporting the industrial base of America since our exports are 30% less expensive over night. He can couch it in the cloak of a stimulus package that the Dems were dragging their feet at a time when America really needed help. Especially multi Nationals will like it whose foreign assets grow by 30% over night. Argentine loves it because their debt gets cut and they just might squeeze by on an austerity budget.

The banks love it since their debt is payable in devalued dollars. Some banks may even survive. The bond guys hate it. JPMC and Citibank merge into a "new" entity refloated by Fed funny money...you know repos that never get repoed. Whose accounting these days anyway?

The financial press goes into a full court "management" mode. As we saw tonight with Abby Cohen on Wall Street Week...in fact she may just be the trigger for this move!

Watch out on Monday."

Canuck (1/5/02; 04:39:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 67724)
@ MarkeTalk, BB, All
Interesting post. (67705)

The rumours of Buffett's leased silver gobbled up by Enron and now waiting to return draws a multitude of questions.

How long does it take to refine silver to meet London's specifications? You mentioned that Comex inventory is net up 2 millions ounces. Over the last couple weeks what has been the total silver into Comex and what has left? The net movement is +2 million put do we have an idea on how much 'moves'? This will give us an indication of how long this squeeze will last.

Please allow me to ramble, I need to see this in my own sketchy thoughts.

Suppose no silver moved out of Comex and 2 million came in over the last 2 weeks. This might suggest a 25 week squeeze to accumulate 50 million ounces to replenish Mr. Buffett's stock. There is of course the relationship of registered vs eligible as BB mentioned and secondly how much larger is the LMBA to Comex? I am sure that there are a zillion other variables. This scenario paints a bullish stance, yes?

Now suppose 25 million ounces have moved out of Comex and 27 million have moved in (again a net +2 million). This suggests a short duration to clean up the 'Buffett mess'. Further considering LMBA's size and other variables this points to a false breakout. Is this what JPM's public blast was all about; silver is overbought?

The inventory movement, eligible/registered etc. of Comex are available; I know very little of Comex so I do not offer an opinion. I guess what I am asking, is this a viable squeeze or do we look forward to a silver bust in a week or two?

The Enron bust, bullion bank short to Buffett and now a 50 million ounce squeeze all sounds very logical but now do longs (physical) jump onto the squeeze bandwagon (hold) or do they sell?

This 'good delivery' difference between NY and London sounds bogus, I thought 'good delivery' has specific parameters? Can Mr. Buffett demand certain 'good delivery' bullion? "No I want square '999' bars not rectangular '999' bars" What's up with that?





SteveH (1/5/02; 04:31:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 67723)
Nugget0
Thanks.

Didn't quite get it right, must be a slipping memmory. ;-)

DESIDERATA

"...Avoid loud and aggressive persons;
they are vexations to the spirit...."


Black Blade (1/5/02; 00:40:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 67722)
Gold Fields May Launch Bid For Hill 50
http://in.biz.yahoo.com/020103/7/1cof8.html

Snippit:

SYDNEY (Dow Jones)--Speculation has intensified that South Africa's Gold Fields Ltd. (GOLD) is the new mystery suitor for takeover target Hill 50 Gold NL (A.HGD), the Australian newspaper reports Friday. Hill 50 earlier this week recommended its shareholders do nothing in response to South Africa's Harmony Gold Mining Co.'s (HGMCY) A$230 million takeover bid, saying an alternative offer was possible.

Black Blade: Either Harmony or Gold Fields would be good as both are unhedged and both would quickly unwind the Hill 50 hedge book. The days of the hedgers are numbered. Note the recent desperate moves by AngloGold. "Interesting Times"


Black Blade (1/5/02; 00:35:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 67721)
AngloGold Growth Options Hazy If Newmont Bid Fails
http://in.biz.yahoo.com/020103/7/1cobv.html

Snippit:

JOHANNESBURG (Dow Jones)--If AngloGold Ltd. (AU) is pipped at the post by Newmont Mining Corp (NEM) in its bid for control of Australia's Normandy Mining Co. A.NDY), it will face a dwindling range of growth strategies. AngloGold has twice sweetened its initial offer for Normandy - Australia's largest gold group producing 2.3 million ounces a year - only to be trumped each time by a stronger Newmont response. "If they miss out on Normandy, they must sit back and assess things carefully before making any other moves," said Nick Goodwin, gold analyst at SG Securities.

Black Blade: A lot of possibilities exist. A good read on the situation for a very desperate AngloGold.


nugget0 (1/5/02; 00:33:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 67720)
SteveH (1/4/02; 21:52:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 67712)
Beware etc, From Whence it came..
http://expage.com/page/howlingonee

DESIDERADA

Black Blade (1/5/02; 00:28:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 67719)
Metal must overcome skeptics
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/yhoo/story.asp?source=blq/yhoo&siteid=yhoo&dist=yhoo&guid=%7B3240BD45%2D47C1%2D4C42%2DAC5B%2D4C4C355942B7%7D

There's a silver squeeze, but gold is in doldrums

Snippit:

SAN FRANCISCO (CBS.MW) - Gold sure could use some of the squeeze that is pushing silver prices to nearly one-year highs. While gold prices start the new year tamely flirting with $280 an ounce, silver, thanks to delivery snafus and tight lending of the metal, is rising smartly. The metal, which has more industrial uses than gold, has risen in recent weeks to almost $4.70 an ounce, an 11-month high, from just above $4. "I'm a bear on silver but a bull on gold," says Edelson, managing editor of the highly regarded Safe Money Report, who had been reluctant to endorse long-languishing gold.

Black Blade: It appears that Edelson missed out on this Silver rally.


Waverider (1/5/02; 00:25:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 67718)
Black Blade
Thank you, as always I appreciate your thoughts and opinions. It's difficult getting a picture when you're not there or connected. I try to keep an open mind and examine/question as much as possible and I guess that's the best one can do. Anyway, you have put my mind at ease and I shall say good-night. :)
Cheers,
Waverider



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