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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 5/5/2001 All times are U.S. Mountain Time (Yesterday's Discussion.) Chris Powell (05/05/01; 21:45:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 53120) Press release for GATA African Gold Summit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/749 Mining companies, government officials,the press, and the king of the Zulus willbe there.To subscribe to GATA's dispatches by email and get them immediately so you don't have to go look for them, send an email to:gata-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Trail Guide (05/05/01; 20:46:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 53119) a little late USAGOLD (5/3/01; 19:40:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 53004)Randy. . . .Argentina-----FOA, maybe you'd like to get in on this??? ---------------------------------------------------------------Hello Michael and everyone!Oh yes, I not only would get in on this but think I am "in it" up to the old arm pits already (smile). This world of ours is changing fast these days.Actually, I only just now had time to copy several days worth of the Forum for reading. I'm late to my own invitation here, I know,,,,,,,, but as they say,,,, better late than never! I took the time to finish several things so as to clear up my writing schedule. Have a lot to say and reply to,,,, and this coming week will be very, very free. Oh yes,,,, one other thing,,,,, ET,,,, did you (or anyone here) ever drink in the "monkey bar" in central Oahu (Hawaii)? I know it's long gone now,,,, but there was something up on the roof of that place that you may be interested in. Much more interesting than that huge jungle cage of monkeys behind the bartender. (big grin)OK everyone,,,,, I'll be back here as soon as I unpack and take care of some things,,,, then it's time for some real give and take. TrailGuide The Invisible Hand (05/05/01; 20:41:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 53118) Who said again that Germany had no more gold left? http://www.sunday-times.co.uk From David Smith's Economic Outlook in the Business Section of tomorrow's London Sunday TimesFrance muscles Germany aside … There could be worse to come. While France is expected to sail serenely on for the next couple of years, the danger signals are being sounded for Germany. Gabriel Stein, an economist at Lombard Street Research, warns that the country, suffering from an overhang in stocks and weak money-supply growth, could sink into recession this year. …The anxiety goes deeper. Germans, unlike many of Europe's citizens, are not used to a weak currency, and their support for the euro, in the latest Eurobarometer survey, is running at only 47%, compared with 62% in France and 79% in Italy. Many Germans will find next year's switch to euro notes and coins hard to bear. …Germany got a dreadful deal out of the euro. The D-mark was fixed against the franc and other European currencies at a rate that reflected its pre-unification glories but was, economists say, overvalued by 10%-20%. Monetary union thus gifted France a permanent competitive advantage against Germany, which is unlikely to have come as a surprise to Paris.… R Powell (05/05/01; 19:28:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 53117) Lease rates Click on the lease rate link at top of forum page, scroll to the bottom, click on home page, then click on statistics, then on derived rates for the desired year. Round about route but it works which is more than can be said for my links. Rich R Powell (05/05/01; 19:19:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 53116) Lease rates for year 2000 http://www.lbma.org.uk/2000gofo.html 2nd try, sorry! Beowulf (05/05/01; 19:17:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 53115) Good article on Wind Energy as an alternative http://cnniw.yellowbrix.com/pages/cnniw/Story.nsp?story_id=20512861&ID=cnniw&scategory=Energy%3ANatural+Gas Title: Is Wind Power a Good Thing?Hey, I'll take two turbines and you can place them in my back yard. All I ask is that I get to pick a color other than white. Make one silver and the other gold. :) R Powell (05/05/01; 19:11:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 53114) Lease rates http://www.lbma.org.uk/2000/gofo.html There were only three days in June and one in December when the one month rate exceeded 1% and even then it was barely over 1%. Change the 2000 to 1999 in the link to view the 1999 rates. They exceeded 2% on July 7th and stayed between 2-4% until Sept 3rd when they broke through the 4% level leading up to the September 26 Washington Agreement anouncement. Be careful reading as the gofo rate turns negative at times. I'm posting this as it's Saturday night and I think these rates along with precious metals stock accumulation are indications that something may be stirring among those who have a clearer view of this gold market. Perhaps GATA's African Gold Summit will get enough press coverage to "trigger" a price move. IMHO when it comes, it will be aided by investment money poured in by people who have little to no clue as to what is really happening. How many understood what the techies and dot coms did? Momentum investment does not require knowledge or understanding. Go GATA! Go press corp! Rich lamprey_65 (05/05/01; 19:11:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 53113) Fiat One last post for the night...How much Justice is there in a system which pays the hard working man (or woman) in a currency which is being created out of thin air, at the whim of banks and politicians? How should the "common man" feel about his wages and savings in such a system?And one last thought which I won't expand upon here but which should be worth some thought to many on this forum...Is fiat Anti-Christ(ian)? Did not Christ warn employers of the injustice of withholding payment to workers?...Is not cheating workers of fair compensation (compensation with true value) even worse as it is deceptive?Babylon, indeed.Back tomorrow. Beowulf (05/05/01; 19:03:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 53112) Everyone has an opinion on Bush's energy plans http://cnniw.yellowbrix.com/pages/cnniw/Story.nsp?story_id=20505432&ID=cnniw&scategory=Energy%3ANuclear Solar Tax CreditsSource: The Press Democrat - Santa Rosa Publication date: 2001-05-04Arrival time: 2001-05-05EDITOR: The most interesting facet of theadministration's developing power policy is what weare hearing nothing about. While we are being toldthat we need to suffer through blackouts, payskyrocketing rates and once again begin buildingnuclear plants, we hear nothing about resurrectingsolar tax credits for homeowners. President Jimmy Carter started what was a verysuccessful policy, but it was disemboweled byRonald Reagan. Had this tax credit been in placefor the past 15 years, our current situation would bemuch different. Why there is no discussion of thisis beyond me. Given that the NIMBY syndrome is so strong ahuman trait, large amounts of water are required bynuclear plants to produce electricity (will waterbecome the next great crisis?), a lot of time isneeded in order to construct a plant and that thereis a complete inability to dispose of deadly wastesthat will still be very deadly 18,000 years from now,how nonsensical is the "plan" being foisted on thepublic by Cheney/Bush? LOWELL GRANT Upper Lake Publication date: 2001-05-04© 2001, YellowBrix, Inc. **************I brought this point up about solar credits to a co-worker bashing Bush on his policy. My only reply to him, since hewas an avid Clinton supporter, was that Clinton had 8 years to reintroduce the credits and didn't. What was Clinton doing about energy while in office? Oh, that's right NOTHING.-Beowulf Cavan Man (05/05/01; 18:56:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 53111) and ET.... They are not going to give up the presses--not going to happen. Cavan Man (05/05/01; 18:54:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 53110) PH in LA PH: I'm rather fond of my yardstick but perhaps that is because my mind is wide open at all times. The yardsticks you reference have been handed out for over 5000 years because 99.9% of humanity can't get THERE without one. I am happy for you that you don't seem to need one. Just think of all the time and FRN you are saving. Best.....CM lamprey_65 (05/05/01; 18:52:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 53109) ET I agree with much you have to say, and I've also found TG's comments on silver (among other things) perplexing, to say the least. High inflation, yet a rare commodity which historically tracks gold selling at 50 cents while gold runs to $10,000+ per ounce? Maybe I'm just a "Doubting Thomas" here, but I'd have to see that one.Personally, I believe the DOW/Gold ratio is a much better guide with 3,000-4,000 on the Dow likely -- the DOW's ultimate support line since the 1930's -- once this 18 year bull market in stocks ends (once 7500 or so on the DOW is breached). This means gold PRICED IN DOLLARS at between $1,000-$4,000 an ounce, with $1,500 an ounce being as good a guess as any I can come up with.I don't share your optimism concerning a return to a true gold or silver backed currency, however much I yearn for its return. We'd need nothing less than a philosopher king to slay the banking interests of this world to make such a radical change. If you haven't noticed, real informed and effective political leadership is not exactly growing on trees these days. The politicians and the bankers have learned how fiat currency can enchance their power in the short term (and the short term is all that matters - let someone else worry about the long term, as long as "I get mine"). R Powell (05/05/01; 18:52:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 53108) Lamprey_65 (53104) Makes sense to me. With that kind of information, it's a wonder they bothered to mine any metal. Maybe they felt some mining would present a good front and keep up the image for the shareholders while the main business became that of a hedge fund. Thanks for the link to insider trading. Very interesting. Rich Cavan Man (05/05/01; 18:49:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 53107) ET Since the US government and officialdom are aware of the plans of the ECB/BIS et al courtesy of this forum, maybe your wish (and perhaps mine) will come true. After all, at this stage in the game as it is known by all, why not default on the dollar abroad (we did that already in 1971), institute a new legal tender here and let gold circulate freely in the US (freegold)? They'll probably have to do that to compete with the Euro (freegold) and continue to attract all kinds of capital; human and otherwise. I'm certain Treasury has something in the hopper eh? All it takes is an Executive Order, a rocky period for transition and then, we're back in business. Nobody is going to tank the US economy. That's foolish.Confiscate gold and hello New Zealand. Beowulf (05/05/01; 18:43:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 53106) Possibility of WPPSS nuke plant to start up again? http://cnniw.yellowbrix.com/pages/cnniw/Story.nsp?story_id=20516267&ID=cnniw&scategory=Energy Black Blade, you talked a while back about Washington and the WPPSS plant fiasco. Well, they are now looking into restarting construction. The beauty of the plan is the facility is already built so nobody can complain about having a new plant built in their back yard, IT'S ALREADY THERE.-BeowulfNuke plant feasibility is studiedENERGY: Operators of state'sonly nuclear power plant look atfinishing sister reactorSource: The News Tribune Publication date: 2001-05-05The organizers of the Northwest's nuclear fiasco of 20 years ago are on a fast track to learn whether it's technically and financially feasible to resume construction of an abandoned nuclear power plant in Eastern Washington. An ad hoc committee of Energy Northwest's executive board is moving toward completing by mid-August more than $1 million worth of technical studies and independent reviews of WNP-1, a two-thirds complete plant on the Hanford Nuclear Reservation. There's a lot of people out there looking at No. 1," Vic Parrish, Energy Northwest's chief executive, told members of the committee meeting Friday at a SeaTac hotel. Energy Northwest is the new name of the Washington Public Power Supply System, which in the 1970s and '80s tried to build five nuclear power plants at Hanford and Satsop, in Grays Harbor County. Only one ever was finished, and WPPSS, a consortium of public utilities, collapsed in a $2.25 billion bond default, the largest ever at that time. Since an energy crisis hit California and the Northwest just about a year ago, however, Energy Northwest's one nuclear plant, the Columbia Generating Station at Hanford, has saved the region's electric ratepayers more than $1 billion, given the cost of buying a comparable amount of power on wholesale markets. There are no available estimates of the cost and time needed to complete WNP-1. Even if the feasibility studies show finishing the plant is possible, there are still barriers. It's unclear whether any of Energy Northwest's member utilities, including Tacoma Power, have any interest in financing completion. And even if there were, state voters in 1981, at the height of the WPPSS fiasco, passed an initiative requiring a public vote on any major public utility power project like the 1,200-megawatt WNP-1. "There's going to have to be significant public mandate" before Energy Northwest itself tries to organize a completion project, Parrish said. But there also exists the possibility of selling the plant to a private company or investor, or taking on one or more partners for the project, Parrish said. The catch to that plan is that most independent operators who have visited the Hanford site probably would want the existing, operating plant also, and it's not for sale. Board members and Energy Northwest executives were undecided about when or how to approach the public. "At some point the public will want input," said board member Margaret Allen. "And not on a foregone conclusion." Two separate reviews by organizations independent of Energy Northwest are planned to help overcome the skepticism that still revolves around anything Energy Northwest proposes. "Remember, this is a board with a chairman who has never met a nuclear plant he felt made sense," said Rudy Bertschi, an economist and head of the ad hoc committee. WNP-1 was designed as a boiling-water reactor plant whose 1,250- megawatt output could power a city the size of Seattle. Its original design was simply an outsized version of a small plant first engineered to power the Navy's nuclear submarines.Major construction work began late in 1975. In the spring of 1982, the Bonneville Power Administration asked that construction be halted. For the next 12 years WPPSS spent about $5 million a year preserving the plant until the utility consortium abandoned it completely in 1994. Its federal construction permit has been regularly renewed, however. But plant components such as valves will soon be sold and Energy Northwest may use the plant's generator to upgrade the plant that's currently operating. Doing so would sound the economic death knell for WNP-1. --- * Staff Writer Al Gibbs covers regional energy issues. Reach him at 253-597-8650 or al.gibbs@mail.tribnet.com. Publication date: 2001-05-05© 2001, YellowBrix, Inc. lamprey_65 (05/05/01; 18:01:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 53105) P.S. Anyone who does not see the real possibility that Rubin (as former head of Goldmans Sachs, Treasury Secretary and head of the ESF) helped orchestrate the carry trade in gold for Clinton's reelection efforts - utilizing his Goldman Sachs ties...you know, the same Goldman Sachs that was a big Bill Clinton supporter - is just a little naive. lamprey_65 (05/05/01; 17:47:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 53104) Belgian http://www.insidertrader.com/freestuff/ticker_summary.asp?search=1&criteria=hgmcy&Submit1=GO You wrote:"If the well informed Anglogold/Barrick, had both, knowledge of such a secret oil/gold-war deal (US-Saudi)...can you blame them for hedging like hell ??????"Yes, I've been convinced for some time that this is the case. Let's not forget that Bush senior took a role as advisor to Barrick after leaving office and AngloGold is THE most connected gold miner in the world (Rothschilds/De Beers).Human beings tend to simplify causes...I believe the falling/low POG since early 1996 has several causes, only one of which is forward selling by mines. Throw in real deflation (1997-1998) and dishoarding directly after the Asian crisis; a skittish Bill Clinton doing ANYTHING in an election year (1996) to make sure he did not suffer the same fate as the Democratic Congress of 1994 -- low POG means the dollar has greater "value" and the U.S. stock market rises as it sucks in foreign money = a "feel good economy"; Central Banks looking to make returns - albeit paltry - on gold assets; and the growing fascination with derivitive instruments in general...it's amazing that gold did not break below $200 and ounce.The fact remains that gold bottomed in the summer of 1999 and has now shown a possible double bottom. We've been going sideways ever since -- backing and filling looks now to be nearly complete.This is now a sector play and the "smart money" is starting to show up as a true bottom has had time to form.From MK's April missive: "Knowing as much as I do about the way central banks all over the world are printing money like confetti, again to help people pay for the rising price of oil, I now expect the biggest and longest gold boom in a century." Adrian van Eck/ Money-Forecast LetterQuestion: Is this the same "VAN ECK" as VAN ECK ASSOCIATES CORP.? Check the link above for institutional ownership for stocks HGMCY, GOLD, HM, AU, GG, etc. Also notice the general trend of institutional accumulation of gold mining shares over the past few quarters. ET (05/05/01; 15:15:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 53103) PH Hey PH - thanks for the reply. You write in part;"ET: Forgive me if I don't quite share your view that the FOA/ANOTHER/Big Trader person/persons are an advocacygroup for the Euro-fiat crowd. FOA has been very explicit in that he does not advocate any form of money per se."We must be reading entirely different authors, PH. He most certainly has been advocating the euro scheme as the way to go with gold held as a "wealth reserve". "Rather, he sees clearly what they are and is willing to go with what is, to his advantage. He is philosophically apragmatist... and is careful not to let other philosophical emotions guide his thinking. His commitment to fiat fallsfar short of advocacy in my book. He recognizes its strengths and weaknesses and strives to use them to bestadvantage. That's all."Perhaps. It was certainly the impression I had for quite awhile. Recently, however, Randy and FOA have given us some clues as to the motivation behind these posts. If you don't mind, let me share with you what I've gleaned lately.Like you, it has always struck me as unusual that someone would post this stuff month after month, year after year, with nothing more in mind than some altruistic purpose. I find that very hard to believe but I don't discount it entirely.Randy asked me the other day what I thought about the "suffering" that has been caused by the US currency hegemony. Why do you think he would ask this? My guess is that he believes great suffering has come to pass and I certainly agree with him. However, he then goes on to say we should adopt another version of the same thing, apparently so the suffering can be spread around a bit. Why not the more obvious choice, a gold standard, this being a gold board and all that. The only ones that would "suffer" from a gold standard would be the status quo, our friendly banks/governments. Yet this is soundly rejected by both Randy and FOA as "unrealistic".Looking at this from another point of view, if you had in mind trying to get your hands on the power to mint money, you would first need to take it away from the ones that have it today, am I right? What would be your strategy if you intended to destroy the dollar as the world's reserve currency and at the same time not suffer a total economic collapse leaving you without the confidence in fiat currencies on which to build your version? My guess is you would try to convince people that your version is somehow tied to gold, as that is the money of last resort. You couldn't actually redeem in gold as that would be a gold standard and you wouldn't be able to mint money so the next best choice is to make it seem that your version of fiat is "backed" by gold. You could say your fiat is backed by "reserves of gold" and would be "fairly" marked to market on a timely basis. You could further attempt by repetition to convince people that this is "free market gold". Sounds like a good plan to me although I believe it suffers from the same lack of economic understanding that produced the current situation with the dollar and its many versions, but you sure can't blame the Europeans for trying!Another point that has always bothered me is the rejection of silver as money. Why? It's not as valuable as gold, but over the years has been regarded as sound money in many times and places. I would guess that the argument against silver is the same argument against gold, it's sound money and that is "unrealistic".I could go on PH, but in summing up what I've read over the years, these people are advocating the euro scheme and rejecting the gold and silver standard. That puts them squarely on the side of big government and a continuation of the status quo. They would seem to advocate hoarding physical gold because it removes gold from the marketplace making it tougher for the paper gold scheme to continue. If the paper gold scheme can be broken and the economic landscape remain unchanged, they would be in a most enviable position. I believe the paper gold scheme will be broken but I don't believe the economic landscape will remain anything like it is today. There will be few ways to escape the great credit bust. Having some real savings will cushion the process, but the process of returning to sound money will take place, all collectivist planning notwithstanding. JMB (05/05/01; 15:08:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 53102) PH in LA You said, "After all, FOA and ANOTHER were out there long before USAGold even thought of having a forum. In those days, everyone was reading Kitco, even Michael K." The history of this great forum and how it has evolved is certainly fascinating to me. Thank you for the historical insight. Would you happen to know if MK was posting at Kitco before the USAGold forum started? Netking (05/05/01; 13:56:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 53101) Public Debt http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdpenny.htm The current public debt. . . $5,636,663,639,692.83 ET (05/05/01; 13:41:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 53100) Belgian Hey Belgian - thanks for the reply. You write in part;"ET : what indication(s) do you have, to suppose that unknowns are exchanging or converting physical gold at muchhigher prices than the present paper-price ? Hedgers have been selling the bulk of their underground at around320$+A total hedged volume of 10.000 tonnes for the next 5 years (miningweb). If there is so much gold around...whyare they trading, inside, at much higher prices?" Let me first say I believe little has changed over the course of man's history regarding their choice of money. Gold is the best money and in today's context the money of last resort when the fiat schemes come apart for lack of confidence. As ANOTHER has pointed out repeatedly, at least some oil producers understand gold's "value". I don't think it is much of a stretch to believe that those that have held gold as savings also understand the value of gold. These would include not just the oil producers, but also the oil consumers via their governments. It is in this realm where gold is traded freely as evidenced by the huge volume of trading in London that came to light a few years ago. I would say an amount of oil is being traded today for an amount of gold, paper prices notwithstanding.It would appear some oil consumers have not had enough "savings" to pay for some time and have resorted to "printing gold". This is where we find ourselves today with economies based on relatively cheap energy but not having the savings to buy it. It would appear that the world isn't suffering so much from an energy shortage as a savings shortage. I would venture the world has misallocated its savings and now find themselves in the untenable position of having built an economy which cannot produce a profit. No profits will eventually lead to a collapse of the current fiat scheme resulting in either a return to sound money or some new version of fiat."IMO, it is a misconception that we as modest individuals are notallowed to trade freely. Gold and silver is plenty available (physical) here at spot prices. But for a BigGold-Accumulator, there is not enough "physical" gold at present prices. The biggies must manoeuver with paperstuff to obtain a small amount of physical in hand at this ultra low price levels. Please, elaborate your views onthe matter."Well, if gold were trading freely relative to fiat, the Big Gold Accumulator would simply place his order and receive his gold. The reason it isn't possible is because there is not enough gold available at these fiat prices. The fiat scheme has at its heart the manipulation of gold "prices" so as to make the fiat itself appear valuable to those using it. By definition, the euro will have to achieve the same manipulation or it too will fail for the same reason the dollar is failing. auspec (05/05/01; 12:35:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 53099) Belgian Mo Ramblings Thanks, Canuck, for the 'upgrade' from babbling to rambling.You got it pretty much correct.Belgian-- Regarding Big Trader: Your Arabian connection is certainly plausable and all of these motives and activities fit the House of Saud to a tee. "War payments and restitutions" would have to be discrete and something to consider for sure. A secret oil/gold-war deal, eh? Whatever AngloBarrick knew was certainly sufficient to profit and participate in the POG downside. Clearly they had the inside scoop whatever it actually is. Don't forget that 'London' was a major participant in Gulf War. The workout of physical is largely via LBMA so UK is ALWAYS front and center in this story.We can't overlook "Big Trader" as described by ANOTHER as "HK people". Of course Saud interests can work through HK and likely do, but the Chinese piece of the puzzle must also find its place {regardless}. The HK gold market is enormous, and the affinity for gold in that region is second to none {or few}. Anyone doubt the flow of gold from west to east?CAUTION: If you don't believe in gold black markets or drugs and gold interchanges please skip this paragraph! The HK gold mafket is every bit as murky as LBMA, and completely unopen to international visibility. China has historically produced enormous amounts of illicit drugs as have many neighboring countries {Thailand and Afghanistan to name a couple}, and this drug trade continues to date. A very real scenario could see gold flowing to HK in exchange for drugs, as repeated reports tell of the growers wanting to be paid in gold. This is likely NOT what ANOTHER was referring to as "some HK people", but it is valid nevertheless.With the Asian affinity for gold and the magnitude of the HK gold market I don't think we really need to look further for who "Big Trader" was. PH doesn't seem to think it has remained relevant to ANOTHER's continuing saga. UK/US/Saud/SA are the centerpieces and "Big Trader" is likely perigheral to that, imho. It does go to show that if the US wants to showcase ALL their gold as suggested by FOA, there will be folks foaming at the mouth to get their hands on it! That much has not changed. Realize that FOA continues to talk of international Dollar reserves going to nada as we progress{?} through his scenario. Bet a lot of countries would swap their nada for some yellow, given half a chance! They can't buty through CPM as we can because MK will only sell to real Gentlemen{persons}. Otherwise HE would also be cleaned out. Sometimes it pays to be small.YES, I blame AngloBarrick for "hedging like hell" just like anyone else that profits from insider trading at the expense of supposedly free markets. We could have sold with them if only we'd known! I know your contempt for their actions also.Mo IDEAS? Peter Asher (05/05/01; 12:26:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 53098) @ Randy; This is tour specialty to comment on @ Pru-Bear --definitionofbear 5/4/01 22:25 M3 did contract its growth rate for the week ending April 23 and the contraction was significant compared to the massive, massive expansion for the few weeks pre-April 16. It will be interesting to see confirmation from next week's numbers. I guess that massive M3 expansion was a giant equity-buy-in just before April 16. And now we are seeing a cash out? But, the slow down was only back to the rate of March 12. I wonder if next week will be even slower. Let me check if something interesting happened in the indices around March 12. ... Mr Gresham (05/05/01; 12:10:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 53097) PH in LA: WHO Well-spoken; you have captured my sense of their contribution, and motives, very well.One way to put it perhaps is: "Sometimes, even the little guy catches a break."With a currency war on the outbreak, most Americans are like a village of people living on the slopes of a volcano. They have lived and farmed here for generations, safely, and have no thoughts of ever moving.Then, one day, a couple of seismologists move into the village and start talking to the people about the strange, far-off rumblings they have been hearing... Chris Powell (05/05/01; 11:18:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 53096) Miners must realize their product is money, not jewelery.... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/748 And that, as money, their product is the deadlycompetitor of the money issued by governments, andthus it will be undermined and attacked by governments. To subscribe to GATA's dispatches by email and get them immediately so you don't have to go look for them, send an email to:gata-subscribe@yahoogroups.com PH in LA (05/05/01; 11:14:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 53095) WHO THEY ARE. (Program note addendum) Hi, Auspec,Yes, no question but that at the time, the activities of some big Hong Kong interests were the focus of ANOTHER's (aka. Big Trader's) comments. Those "big traders" seem to have faded from ANOTHER's radar screens a long time ago. They were probably a bigger factor then than they are now. ANOTHER's use of the Big Trader handle seems like a way of grabbing attention and focusing it on those Hong Kong interests. He certainly didn't stay very long with them. At that time, the explosion of the paper market was probably just getting underway. The Hong Kong people could not be such a big factor in the present climate, even though they may have been important in launching it.ET: Forgive me if I don't quite share your view that the FOA/ANOTHER/Big Trader person/persons are an advocacy group for the Euro-fiat crowd. FOA has been very explicit in that he does not advocate any form of money per se. Rather, he sees clearly what they are and is willing to go with what is, to his advantage. He is philosophically a pragmatist... and is careful not to let other philosophical emotions guide his thinking. His commitment to fiat falls far short of advocacy in my book. He recognizes its strengths and weaknesses and strives to use them to best advantage. That's all.And the same goes for his orientation towards gold. The only consistent message that I have ever gleaned from contemplating ANOTHER"s THOUGHTS is that physical gold will one day soon be a tremendous bonanza for those who have it. I'm sorry, but I just don't see any value judgement/philosophical advocacy there at all. FOA/ANOTHER do not think simplistically that "everything about gold is good". Nor can the purpose of their efforts be described as "to promote the sale of gold bullion" as our JMB suggests. What 'purpose' would there be in that? The world is way too big for the views of one to move all the rest of humanity. Perhaps Cheeshead thinks so. But FOA/ANOTHER is way smarter than that! And sure, Michael K. does probably benefit from FOA's presence here, but I see that as merely FOA's way of thanking MK and in a small way of paying for the forum. After all, FOA and ANOTHER were out there long before USAgold even thought of having a forum. In those days, everyone was reading Kitco, even Michael K.The idea that gold is some kind of moral issue is well enough left to the narrow-minded religious types who need yardsticks supplied by others to anchor themselves in the cosmos. FOA has tried on several occasions to explain that he merely tries to see what is, to be better able to position himself in man's financial cosmos. He does not "believe" in Euros, fiats, gold or any other system. A true thinker, he tries to understand reality and then act accordingly. Forgive me, but I just don't see him trying to impose a belief system of his own on an indifferent cosmos.That's just the way I see it.Please don't take offence, FOA by these poor musings about your motives/identities/etc. Much as you might like to deny it, your message would be several magnitudes clearer if we knew who you were and why you make the effort you do here. At the same time, there is no question in my mind but that you have your own very good reasons. And I am not offended in the least by that... And I do look in on this forum every day just in the hope that you might post something. Thanks for all you do! Econoclast (05/05/01; 10:44:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 53094) Gold is Not Dead! If gold were dead, and central banks were truly dumping it to get it out of their vaults before its value went to zero in their "brave new world", the dollar price would not be what it is. A huge campaign and world wide conspiracy would have been activated to PUMP the price these last few years-not depress it-so that the CB's could obtain the MOST value-for-money as they dumped their soon to be worthless reserves. Belgian (05/05/01; 10:14:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 53093) Round Table ET : what indication(s) do you have, to suppose that unknowns are exchanging or converting physical gold at much higher prices than the present paper-price ? Hedgers have been selling the bulk of their underground at around 320$+A total hedged volume of 10.000 tonnes for the next 5 years (miningweb). If there is so much gold around...why are they trading, inside, at much higher prices ? IMO, it is a misconception that we as modest individuals are not allowed to trade freely. Gold and silver is plenty available(physical) here at spot prices. But for a Big Gold-Accumulator, there is not enough "physical" gold at present prices. The biggies must manoeuver with paper stuff to obtain a small amount of physical in hand at this ultra low price levels. Please, elaborate your vieuws on the matter.Elwood and Auspec : The "Big Trader" ? One thing for sure : it is not me ! :-)My guess is Saudi Arabia. The 1990 Gulf war and repayment for the US assistance, are a plausible reason why the Saudis and the US, arranged a deal, with the involvement of Gold. A win/win deal : A declining POG, suitable for accumulation against a low POO as repayment for war debt.The US gets the wanted low gold profile to favor their dollar + a low POO to quick start the economy. The Saudis sitting on the cheapest oil in the world and still making a profit at 10$/barril. They are part of the deal for a stable (increasing) dollar for their oil and in the back of their mind, they know that with this cheap oil, they enforce their dominance, with the prevention of other oil-explorations. The end-date of that deal, might explain why POO soared from 10$ to 34$. And the Saudis had no reason to stop the advantage of cheap gold and stable dollar. The have not only abundant oil but also all the time in the world. That's why I suspect that the Saudis are The Big Trader. This scenario might also explain why the correlation between Gold and oil has been interrupted, temporarely.(compare charts).This supposed after war deal is probably the reason why everybody has lots of interests to remain silent about gold and oil. War debts and restitutions have always been something that had to remain very discrete.And as usual we can't impossibly find evidence of Saudi gold accumulation in official statistics. And no official goldtrader is going to reveal, never ever, the identity of its Saudi client(s). Hello, is there an insider in the room ?The Gulf war is of course only part of the gold drama (opportunity). The accompagned low POO was a gift for every other nation on the globe. Why should they shout about a low POG ? Why should they want to end the POG creative price setting if they all get a strong dollar in exchange to expand their ponzi game with the 1,75 trillion reserves(BIS) (80% in US$)? And the Saddam-Sanctions will certainly also have their place in this scenario. And not only for prevention to re-arm Irak. Arm sales are also a big business. France and Germany were the two main arms providers and are not selling their gold ? Can you find a role for the UK in this story ?If the well informed Anglogold/Barrick, had both, knowledge of such a secret oil/gold-war deal (US-Saudi)...can you blame them for hedging like hell ?????? Oeffff, I've said it. Looking forward to your stimulating comments. JMB (05/05/01; 08:36:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 53092) Many thanks to Dr.V for this Saville INFLATION UPDATE http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_01/milhouse050201.html This covers alot of ground. A very good article, imo. Shermag (5/5/01; 07:44:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 53091) Further to Elwood's insightfull missive on Arabs, Gold, and Oil Elwood posted a great piece with: "Elwood (4/26/01; 01:20:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 52598)Of Austrians and Arabs"to which I would like to add some conjecture.Elwood states "When Arab well runs dry or oil's timeline be ended by technology, on that day Arab wake and wish for higher gold price, because then he becomes seller."It is on this point I posit that the Arab has a further objective in accumulating gold than for golds sake alone.The Arab ruler seeks to avoid, or at least minimize, the destabilizing impact that depletion will bring his kingdom.There have been efforts to install an industrial base outside of the oil industry, purchased with oil, but this effort is fighting the headwind of Triffin's Dilemma in which "industry is destroyed at the source of money creation". Oil is the money in this circumstance.When the oil stops flowing they will seek a bridge to an economy based on something other than oil, perhaps banking. Gold is that bridge.Shermag Henri (5/5/01; 06:50:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 53090) Auspec and PH...Who is Big Trader? When I would read about Big Trader, for some reason my mind gravitated toward thinking it was the boys from LTCM. Especially when I read the ...what looked like big money turned out to be small money...part. Hmm your posts have redirected my thoughts which are still dazed and confused and seeking the light of knowledge Henri (5/5/01; 06:46:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 53089) Mr. Gresham msg# 53050 A toast to your intent to clink sir! No, I visited Expo '67 in my youth and spent some time on the Ridieu (sp?) Lake chain, but no canoeing. RossL (5/5/01; 06:12:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 53088) Ponzi Index http://home.columbus.rr.com/rossl/gold.htm Shifty has been AWOL lately, but the chart is updated. Canuck (5/5/01; 06:12:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 53087) Greenspan in a pickle Well, well, well.Just gone through all the posts and messages from Friday, can't wait until the 15th to see what distortions of reality come out of the FED.If Mr. Greenspan lowers another half, the dollar will be pounded, go gold!!If he doesn't the stock markets fade into oblivion and with the noticeable trend of the PM's it should made a great day, go gold!!Interesting that the European CB holds steady, sitting on its hands laughing hysterically inside.Fitting that the BOE bi-monthly 'gold-giveaway' co-incides this lovely day.Also fitting that the GATA boys get a few days head start before this carnage.At long last we see the end of FED games, the game of being "caught between a rock and a hard place":)Have a golden week-end!!Canuck. Canuck (5/5/01; 05:27:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 53086) Belgian, auspec http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_01/hamilton043001.html Excellent ramblings gentlemen.Hamilton discusses commodities in the link above. Many of the graphs portray bizarre patterns. The one that stuck with me was "..commodities prices lowest in 80 years..".Awesome read.On a complete sidenote, I was wondering if anyone has heard more of the Swiss sales. Recall a month or two ago the Swiss had 'fired' the BIS in their gold sales. What has become of that?Please also check out the GATA message (a few posts below). It is really amazing the amount of dirt discovered in the last year or so involving the anti-gold group.Time to load up? Rockgrabber (5/5/01; 04:22:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 53085) Please allow me to ask I have been asked this a number of times now, and I dont know the anser. What sort of reporting requirements does gold have? When you leave this country for good, and you have gold, how do you get it out without reporting it? Is that posssible? Could you just FEDX a bit at a time out of the country? I would love that info if you have it, thanks. Black Blade (5/5/01; 03:50:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 53084) Saudis, UAE Healthy Gold Appetite http://business.iafrica.com/news/sabusinessnews/272877.htm Snippit:Moaz Barakat, WGC Middle East regional director, says the WGC forecasts gold demand in the Gulf region to remain strong for the remainder of 2001. He says regional consumer confidence, boosted last year on the back of higher world oil prices, will continue to grow.Black Blade: Gold for oil? Black Blade (5/5/01; 03:25:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 53083) Employment Situation Summary http://stats.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm The entire BLS report. Black Blade (5/5/01; 03:10:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 53082) Fed's Legwork Led To Quick Rate Cut http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A40977-2001May3.html Snippit:When the Federal Reserve policymakers surprise financial markets with an unexpected change in interest rates, investors and analysts often wonder, "What do they know that we don't? Usually, the answer is nothing.But when the Fed caught the markets off guard on April 18 with a half-point reduction in short-term interest rates, Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan and other central bank officials did have some vital, privately gathered information that convinced them an immediate rate cut was needed.Black Blade: Why did the Fed cut rates, two of them being intrameeting rate cuts? AG and the Fed obviously know that the economic outlook is worse than it appears to the US public. This article provides quite an analysis - worth reading. ViewYesterday's Discussion.
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