1-800-869-5115 We welcome your inquiry.

Home How to Buy Gold Live Gold Price Daily Market Report Gold IRA Charts Stats Essays Trading & Storage High Net Worth Gold Coin Prices Gold Primer Q&A Breaking Gold News Mobile Gold Price Gold Coin Catalog About Us-Contact Search Video Round Tables

Welcome to the USAGOLD Gold Discussion Archives. The archives of this gold discussion forum are a treasure trove of information to educate investors about protecting their wealth through portfolio diversification with private gold ownership. The discussion forum also covers the wider issues of the past, present, and future role of gold in international monetary policy and the dynamics of the modern gold markets...   (Discussion Forum Hall of Fame) (The Gold Trail) ("Thoughts!" by ANOTHER)   The opinions posted by all guests are expressly their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the management or staff of USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals. The hosting of the public discussion shall therefore not be construed as an endorsement by USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals of any of the opinions posted here.

FORUM ARCHIVES

Select date of the archive you wish to view Month 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Day 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 Year 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 Archives date back to September 22, 1998

WELCOME TO THE ARCHIVES!

ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 1/5/2000
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

View Yesterday's Discussion.

beesting (1/5/00; 23:56:06MDT - Msg ID:22388)
From Verdigris at Kitco about Warren Buffett..
http://cbs.marketwatch.com/archive/19991227/news/current/brk.htx
Article says:
The stock price of Berkshire Hathaway a holding company comprised of Buffetts favorite stocks is on the way to posting it's first annual decline since 1990. The stock has dropped 23%. Mr. Buffett refuses to invest in high tech stocks. Click URL for full story.

Now I think I have a little insight into Mr. Buffetts huge Silver purchase almost 2 years ago.
Mr. Buffett believes in tangible assets!Mr. Buffetts holding company owns many companies. If the stock market nosedives and his companies own buildings outright, real-estate, machines, equipment etc.,those things will still have value, and if the companies produce products that are always in demand, he is still in business.(batteries??)

Silver is an industrial metal and a store of wealth! If there is a great downturn in the economy and stocks lose much of their value, Mr Buffett is still in great shape because the Silver should go way up in value along with Gold.The rich get richer no matter what!....beesting.

TownCrier (1/5/00; 23:45:07MDT - Msg ID:22387)
HEADLINE: Europe to see next big wave of wealth
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/000106/x.html
Jean-Francois Rischard, vice president--Europe for the World Bank said "It looks like European countries are now getting ready to catch the wave that started in the U.S. around the new technologies." He said in regard to a correction in the U.S., it would be hard to predict. "People have been wrong year after year...forecasters in general have not been doing very well." But he also said that "if Europe continues to grow at this pace, if there happens to be a weakening of the growth rate in the U.S, then Europe would be able to keep on going."

SHIFTY (1/5/00; 23:36:52MDT - Msg ID:22386)
(No Subject)
I see some of the info has already been posted by Flierdude msg Id : 22332. Glad to see nothing gets by this site!

SHIFTY (1/5/00; 23:26:25MDT - Msg ID:22385)
Lemetropole Cafe
Intrigue abounds.
A must read. Keep an eye on GATA site I think it will be posted soon.

TownCrier (1/5/00; 22:59:15MDT - Msg ID:22384)
HEADLINE: Sony sends rare 'bubble' alert on shares
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/000105/bez.html
You've gotta love the candor of Sony President Nobuyuki Idei. He told reporters that the company's shares were overvalued at the current price--like a "bubble." He felt the appropriate value would be the equivalent of $192 per share. Sony was presently trading at $247. Percentage-wise, that doesn't seem near as "bubbly" as many other tech stocks out there. Look out beloooooow...

One trader said, "It is surprising for a president to make such (bubble) comments about his company's own shares. It could bring some adverse effect on other high-tech stocks."


beesting (1/5/00; 22:34:56MDT - Msg ID:22383)
rsjacksr #22370
Your Question:
Can someone please tell me what they use for a yardstick for determining the relative value of currencies and against what?

Excellent question rs, I have been trying to figure that one out in understandable terms for many years.
About 2 years ago I called my Broker and asked the same question, and here is what they sent me:

<< FLOATING EXCHANGE RATE:
Movement of a foreign currency exchange rate in response to changes in the market forces of supply and demand; Also known as FLEXIBLE EXCHANGE RATE. Currencies strengthen or weaken based on a nations reserves of hard currency and Gold, its international trade balance, its rate of inflation and interest rates, and the general strength of its economy.>>

Now the more I read this the more confused I got, when I went to the currency exchange site at yahoo and saw that some very small nations have stronger currencies than the U.S. One of which is England. How can their money possibly be worth more than U.S. money when you add the above mentioned statistics together. Ireland 1998 was another one, the irish PUNT was/is worth more than the U.S. dollar, haven't checked it recently tho.

I think the above statement from my broker was written by Casey Stengel(if you remember who he was) and translated by Alan Greenspan. It's english but if you think about it, it doesn't come out right. Like 2 plus 2 = 7.

I think there is also a population factor in the currency conversion equasion somewhere, they just left that out of my definition.
We know Japan holds a lot of U.S. debt and has a surplus trade balance to make their currency strong, but someone explain Ireland to me. Was their money tied to the English Pound?
There are others that are hard to figure out, off hand I think Cyprus is one, that has money more valuable than U.S.

I think The Bank of New York sets the currency exchange rates for everyone in the world except the BIS.They probably have a computer that someone constantly feeds financial data to from around the world, and the computer figures the rates. The trouble is whoever programmed the computer died and now no-one understands completely how it works.
It's all monoply money anyway, the only real money is....GOLD.

Those in the Know....Buy Gold.....beesting.




ORO (1/5/00; 22:23:27MDT - Msg ID:22382)
Rap - it is entertainment
Gambling is a form of entertainment for those who can control themselves, and it can be the bassis of an economy relying on tourism.

It can't be a foundation for an economy in general, just as entertainment can't be the foundation for the US economy, though entertainment expenses are 10% of today's disposable income on average in the US - it is better than 6% of the economy.

Srocks, by the way, are not a zero sum game by nature. Historically, they are a better than 0 game.

ORO (1/5/00; 22:17:31MDT - Msg ID:22381)
Solomon
Sorry for the confusion, they are buying Euro with Yen.

They are in no way Euro debtors. The new Euro debtors are in South America and Southeast Asia. They are also to be found in Germany's former elbow room.

RAP (1/5/00; 22:13:15MDT - Msg ID:22380)
Sir ORO, gambling
If gambling is a "less than zero sum game" it cannot play any part in a sound economic system, can it?

CoinGuy (1/5/00; 21:58:00MDT - Msg ID:22379)
How do I?
Now that you computer geniuses are done remediating code for Y2K, can you tell me how to pull up the S&P futures over at livecharts.com?

Gold is like a box of chocolates...ahhh nevermind,

Coinguy



Solomon Weaver (1/5/00; 21:46:51MDT - Msg ID:22378)
question to Oro
ORO

Is it the Japanese who have to repay Euros and are cashing in dollars to do it?

Or is it a Euro carry trade by non-Japanese parties who used the Yen to hedge the transaction???

Is Japan a net borrower of Euros???

Poor old Solomon

Goldy Locks Guy (1/5/00; 21:41:27MDT - Msg ID:22377)
solomon and China/Silver
Sol,
Sorry about the 29,000...it was 2,900 tons....as you have said....I couldn't find the article from Ted Butler at Kitco would you mind terribly to email to me...@ Magnison@aol.com ???

Also, the post you mentioned on Dec 12....is that in the USA gold forum?

Thanks for your reply.......Goldilocks

ORO (1/5/00; 21:38:43MDT - Msg ID:22376)
The Euro and Japan
It is the Japanese doing Euro for Yen instead of Euro for dollars .
It's stupid, but they can do what they wish.

Aside from that, the first annual refinancing of Euro debt has arrived. Euro must be obtained to return this first batch of coupon payments.

But! Oh no!! We have no Euros, we only have dollares, what shall we do? We must part with les dollares and buy Euros.



Solomon Weaver (1/5/00; 21:34:31MDT - Msg ID:22375)
Gandalf and more discussion on the Euro
Greetings Gandalf

Love your handle by the way...since I read LOTR over and over again..still a Hobbit at heart.

actually the calculation was not MINE...it was the calculation that I snipped out of that article that beesting posted a bit earlier...

I am aware that at the birth of the Euro, it made a massive slide (like when the new kid in town moves in and the other boys bully him just to see how he reacts)...also curious that on the one year birthday it starts to look stronger again....

Just thought it was interesting that a consortium of thinkers (including the IMF and World Bank which are americocentric) could whip up spreadsheets that showed that the Euro should stabilize at a higher level...

One small thing to remember...the number crunching for this report was probably done before all those repo dollars started flowing in very late 1999.

Poor old Solomon

FOA (1/5/00; 21:29:01MDT - Msg ID:22374)
CHINA VOTES NO FOR SILVER
NO LINK
Wednesday January 5, 5:24 pm Eastern Time

Silver Falls on Dumping Fears

By The Associated Press

Fears that China will dump silver on the market sent silver
futures prices sharply lower in trading Wednesday on the New
York Mercantile Exchange.------------------

------------Silver prices plunged on a report in the semi-official Peoples Morning News that the Chinese
government will sell some of its silver reserves. The amount of silver to be sold was not mentioned. However, China is believed to have 93 million ounces of silver in reserve, according to analyst James Steel of Refco. Inc.

China is currently producing about 1,300 tons of silver annually, while consumption in that country is about 800 tons, making it plausible that a sale would take place, Steel said.--------------------------


ORO (1/5/00; 21:27:55MDT - Msg ID:22373)
Gambling
Can be fun and exciting if there is no problem of addiction. If the game has fair odds, you can play quite a while. Realize that the game is a less than zero sum game. Odds favor the house, and there is much danger.

If windsurfing, hang-gliding, parachute jumping, walks in Hyde park (Chicago), bunjee jumping and roller coaster riding are not evils, neither is gambling.

As a drink of wine is not alcoholism, neither is a weekend in Vegas. A lifetime in Monaco, however, is a different story.

Gandalf the White (1/5/00; 21:26:18MDT - Msg ID:22372)
Poor old Solomon's calculation
Poor Ol'e says: "The data showed that the euro was some 7.5 percent undervalued against the dollar at the end of 1998" which implies an equilibrium nominal rate of 1.26 euros per dollar. <==
****The Hobbits read that quote a little bit differently, Sol. -- As the Euro did not exist in 1998, and when the Euro was born it was thought to have a value 7.5% GREATER than the US$, which would make the Euro = US$1.08 when it was about to begin its life. However, the Euro was born much more robust than that and quickly grew to = US$1.17 only to come back to "earth" near parity. -- Notice the strength of the Euro now. -- Wonder what it will be like when that "Black Gold" becomes priced in Euro's? -- AND then what it will be like when REAL GOLD gets used to price Gold ?
<;-)


Solomon Weaver (1/5/00; 21:20:58MDT - Msg ID:22371)
some more on China and Silver
Goldy Locks Guy (1/5/00; 12:24:36MDT - Msg ID:22351)
china selling silver reserves
Hi...I know this is a gold forum, but do any of you precious metals buffs have any input on China selling into the market? Silver tanked today because of it, but I'm wondering if it's a kneejerk reaction or could the 29,000 tons actually make a difference in the big picture...Thanks...goldilocks

Hey Goldilocks

The following was a message I got from Ted Butler about silver sales out of China. I did not add the copy since it is copyrighted and I want to respect Ted's material...but If you go over to Kitco...it makes a good read..dealing exactly with Silver....and China.

A brief overview...according to TB China has a 100 million ounce reserve...which seems to be about 3,000 tons...where did you get the number 29,000?

Thanks for your note. Here's a post I made on the topic a little ways back on
kitco

Date: Sun Dec 19 1999 10:57
ted butler (China's silver) ID#370209:

Poor old Solomon

rsjacksr (1/5/00; 21:12:26MDT - Msg ID:22370)
Re: Beesting
Currency valuations
Read beesting post on "IMF researchers say Pound should fall to join EMU". Can someone please tell me what they use as a yardstick for determining the relative value of currencies and against what???



RAP (1/5/00; 21:09:27MDT - Msg ID:22369)
PERMAFROST,ORO@profit
On the subject of "profit".
Since I am "intellectually bankrupt" myself, I do not want to get into this discussion, but I think I have something to offer. Is there any distinction between proceeds from gambling and "profit"? I think we all agree gambling is immoral and wrong. Just where do we draw the line between the two? At some point profit turns to proceeds from gambling, and therefore I thing you are both right, you just have not defined profit completely. IMVHO.


Solomon Weaver (1/5/00; 21:06:54MDT - Msg ID:22368)
a snippet from beesting's link
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/000105/bba.html
Beesting

Interesting to see signs that at least one party in Europe is thinking of joining in with the EU..Labor obviously thinks it will be worse for the common man if they don't.

This snippet caught me.....

``The results indicate that the pound should depreciate considerably before entering EMU,'' said the paper, which was written by researchers from the IMF, the World Bank, the Bank of Spain and Germany's Deutsche Bank.

The authors said their research calculated equilibrium exchange rates ``in a way that guarantees global consistency.'' The data showed that the euro was some 7.5 percent undervalued against the dollar at the end of 1998 ``which implies an equilibrium nominal rate of 1.26 euros per dollar.''

Poor old Solomon

Solomon Weaver (1/5/00; 20:58:19MDT - Msg ID:22367)
pdeep and the FEDchimp
pdeep

great idea...just seems to have one problem...

There is no mechanism to determine if the FED should reduce the money supply...even if the monkey dies it is only down to zero.

Poor old Solomon

Solomon Weaver (1/5/00; 20:53:07MDT - Msg ID:22366)
Oil and Steve H
Steve H

I saw the same show...and had the same thoughts.

What I also thought was funny was how that handsome young Economist said he wished that Alan Greenspan and the FED would put out a standard policy in numbers, for example...if inflation is above 2% vs. below 2%...economists just love spread sheets don't they???

Again, I think of that Arab Sheik story in Ascani's writings who gets a ton of gold sovreign coins for oil rights on his land...he didn't need a spread sheet to count all that gold....and he didn't trust anyone to do it for him.

Poor old Solomon

RAP (1/5/00; 20:35:01MDT - Msg ID:22365)
than???
Spell checkers think "than" is just fine in place of THANK!

canamami (1/5/00; 20:34:20MDT - Msg ID:22364)
Reply to Usul, 22354
Are you a detective or private investigator in your non-posting life? One wonders whether "Contributor and Occasional Guru to the USAGOLD Forum" ought to be added to that resume? Check out the academic articles, particularly with reference to the 1970-74 period, when gold-backing died.

RAP (1/5/00; 20:27:56MDT - Msg ID:22363)
How soon before the bear?
That sound like what I have been going through with gold stocks for the past several years.<g>
On a more serious note, I want to than MK for the silver eagle I am receiving from the last contest, just for entering it. I also want to thank him for this forum. I feel as though I should be giving him the silver eagle for the privilege of using it. I have to thank all the great people who give away all there knowledge for free at this forum.
Thanks again to all.


elevator guy (1/5/00; 20:00:01MDT - Msg ID:22362)
@SteveH
Yes, thats a pretty accurate scenario for market gamblers, and all who are led astray by the lure of easy money.

As soon as it seems like a sure-fire bet, the hook is in the mouth, and the fool and his money are soon parted.

SteveH (1/5/00; 19:33:44MDT - Msg ID:22361)
How soon before the bear?
Pretend for a moment that you were no longer a gold bug. Rather, imagine that you have $10K and you want make money like everyone esle is today. You sign up for *ebrade, you deposit your money. You make a few play trades to get the hang of it. That seems easy enough. Now here goes nothing.

You want to buy Frisco but can't, because you don't have enough. 100 shares at $100 less commission puts you over. So, you borrow some money from your bank account and send it to *ebrade. Hey, now I can buy 125 shares. Great. You post the transaction and get confirmation. Now, for the next three weeks everyday five times at work and five time at home you are slave to your *ebrade browser.

After three weeks you note you aren't ahead or behind. The stock just sits there. Common Frisco, go make the money I know you will make me. Suddenly, the stock drops $20 per share. Hmmm! That is not right. Wait. Talking heads say, good buying opportunity. Let me get some cash from my credit card...$2000 should do it.

You send that in to the *ebrade. Great, now I can buy more shares. Wait I need to buy 100 share lots. Well I will pick *iwin. They are cheap and the chat room says these are hot. You get 100 shares. Three weeks go by and you are still slave to the *ebrade browser. Yet it just sits there.

One day it goes down $5.00 dollars. Hey wait. This isn't cool. I start with $10K, bump another $4500 and I got squat.

Talking heads still say good buying opportunity. Maybe if I sell these and buy others...repeat above.

Anybody got the urge, because I know if I bought stocks right now, this would happen. So we must be about six weeks away from the big drop, eh?

SteveH (1/5/00; 18:56:16MDT - Msg ID:22360)
Wrote this to another friend
I watched CNN Moneyline and then Crossfire regarding Greenspan tonight. I concluded that the information flow available to the talking heads (commentators) is limited by their traditional sources of information, in which phone calls, letters, and contacts (with books to protect) provide their base of wisdom. Well educated these folks are but somehow they seem to be so pleased that all traditional, conservative values of monetary policy have been thrown to the wind and that their 401K's are making them wealthy beyond their dreams. In that image of their world, they are presuming that inflation is low, when you take out oil. This is their fatal flaw, in my opinion. By removing oil from the equation, they are presuming that all is well. Oil is rearing its head for the exact opposite reason they presume -- the oil barrons are shaking their discontentment with manipulation, derivatives, and paper gold. The Long-term Bond would appear to be the great equalizer and thermometer here. What oil is telling us is they don't want dollars under its current bubble mentality, they don't want dollars that inflate regardless if it is seen in the price of goods. That is how I see this, but so far my friends just say, "Steve, you have been saying that for two years now and I have tripled my money, and look at you!"

Damn frustrating, eh?


pdeep (1/5/00; 17:30:40MDT - Msg ID:22359)
The Road to a Banana Republic
I read with some amusement today the growing feeling of unease amongst various economic poobahs at the thought that AG might migrate to parts unknown. Having the Fed automatically target a 2% inflation rate was one of the more laughable solutions.

So here is a modest proposal for his replacement. It has certain advantages: it is apolitical, it responds to feedback, its operation is the same as the departed Chairman, and bribes are easily uncovered.

Materials:

1 large cage
1 large monkey
Lots of large bananas

Methods:

Place the monkey in the cage. Feed with regular monkey chow for 50% of daily caloric intake. Begin by throwing in 20 bananas/day to supplement monkey chow.

Look at the weekly DJIA. If less than week before, remove one banana from daily ration. If more than week before, keep daily banana ration the same.

Hang a bunch of plastic bananas just outside of monkeys reach outside cage. Now count how many times the monkey reaches outside the cage for the bananas, per week. Divide by 7 to get a daily average. (This can be automated using a simple photoelectric circuit attached to a non-compliant old 486 not good for much else)

Multiply this amount by $1 billion. That is the amount the Fed adds to the money supply the next week.

And there you have it. In addition, when anyone exclaims that the Fed is monkeying around with the stock market, you can answer in the affirmative.




R Powell (1/5/00; 17:23:08MDT - Msg ID:22358)
Non-commercials short again
The imfamous commodity funds have increased their net short contracts position from 20553 on Dec. 14 to 28982 on Dec. 28 I used 'Consenus' COT figures for Dec 14 and figures from www.futuresource. com/cgi-bin/art? 000103/145302 for the Dec. 28. Most of the selling took place between Dec 14 and the 21. These are net short numbers and means that upward gold prices in the futures market for any-any reason will bring about short covering by the fund managers. The trap has been reset and baited and POG held its own fairly well during the selling. Noteworthy also, it was those concidered small speculators by the Commitment of Traders Report who supported gold during the selling. Something is needed to start an uptrend to force some shortcovering and perhaps the next move up will receive more support from John Q Public. Maybe?

Gandalf the White (1/5/00; 17:17:38MDT - Msg ID:22357)
Thanks rsjacksr for the message #22346
Why I ask, was that I was watching the LiveCharts on Quote.com -- when at 11:31 the line dropped off the chart!!! I now when I look at the end of the day, I see a yellow line at the 11:31 time which must be the erasure line to correct the error. -- WOW ended at 6.631% today!!! -- Will someone please awaken me when the Long Bond hits the rate of 7.00% yeild. -- The Hobbits are going GOLD shopping again tomorrow as they can not believe the after Xmas sales!!!!
<;-)

beesting (1/5/00; 17:15:30MDT - Msg ID:22356)
IMF researchers say Pound should fall to join EMU
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/000105/bba.html
Britians labor Government is committed in principle to introducing the Euro, subject to a referendum(vote) early in the next parliament.
For full story click above URL.....beesting.

Netking (1/5/00; 16:26:06MDT - Msg ID:22355)
"Bargain Hunters Squash Nasdaq Decline"
http://www.7am.com/cgi-bin/wires02.cgi?1000_00010506.htm
"Bargain Hunters Squash Nasdaq Decline" - Are we missing something here folks Professors of precious metals & Macroeconomics as we are? When a 'Bubble.Com' stock has P.E. of only 100's we should be rushing in!(smile)



Usul (1/5/00; 14:27:16MDT - Msg ID:22354)
Gold for Oil
http://www.msu.edu/~kreinin/
It would be great if someone with good library resources
(unlike myself, unfortunately)
could look this up and post relevant text... it does
look interesting, does it not? It is the only
authoritive reference to Gold for Oil I have
found on the Net (Yes, I know USAGOLD and other
gold forum sites talk about Gold for Oil incessantly).
Unless there are references in
MK's book (which I have not seen).

FOA, perhaps you have some literature references to
the Jamaica Accords?

Perhaps someone knows a reference buried in the Hall of Fame
or on the labyrinthine Eagle site?

The strength of a case in learned discourse is
supported by authoritive references to published
literature.

Usul (12/2/99; 15:57:43MDT - Msg ID:20078)
Gold for Oil

"Gold for Oil," New York Times letter, March 18, 1974,
included in Casebook of Economic Problems and Policies, R. Fels ed.
Mordechai E. Kreinin
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Economics
Michigan State University


Cavan Man (1/5/00; 13:22:36MDT - Msg ID:22353)
To Leigh
RE: Another 14770

On Japan and oil--If my memory serves me correctly, it is Yergin's contention in his "The Prize" (excellent BTW) that the real cause of Japan's murderous ambush at Pearl was the fact that the US cut back and/or embargoed oil exports to Japan. Frightfully ironic that Japan is the $'s staunchest ally isn't it? BTW, did you know that the incidence of mortality in Japanese POW camps was much higher than their German counterparts? That's a fact. Never forget PH.

I read Another's post one last time. I'm convinced of their (FOA & Another) authenticity and believe they make the effort they do so that they will live long knowing they did their best to warn of the "road ahead"; effectively with clear conscience. They post for at least two years; are driven from at least one other forum with ridicule; arrive here welcomed by a wise and open-minded host; and continue on using the best medium (widest range/no filter/free to all) to broadcast their message. What could they do; take out an ad is USA Today? Their message is anathema to many. That is one of the reasons I believe what I read from their hand.

Methinks 30% allocation is not high enough for PM. Suggest calling MK @ CPM today.

sstins (1/5/00; 13:21:47MDT - Msg ID:22352)
Mortgage Rates (FWIW)

Today's Par Fixed Rates (Par rate assumes standard closing costs plus pts)

30yr fixed rate locked for 30 days - 8.125%
15yr fixed rate locked for 30 days - 7.875%

Housing market slowing soon???

"I got gold and am getting some more."


Goldy Locks Guy (1/5/00; 12:24:36MDT - Msg ID:22351)
china selling silver reserves
Hi...I know this is a gold forum, but do any of you precious metals buffs have any input on China selling into the market? Silver tanked today because of it, but I'm wondering if it's a kneejerk reaction or could the 29,000 tons actually make a difference in the big picture...Thanks...goldilocks

YGM (1/5/00; 12:08:06MDT - Msg ID:22350)
Town Crier
http://skybusiness.com/yukon-gold/index.html
TC...I have linked USA Gold to my soon to be completed Gold Website.....I'll be away from the keyboard for a few weeks so keep up the good fight guys.....Ken...(YGM)

Ray Patten (1/5/00; 11:41:45MDT - Msg ID:22349)
canamami...

Please tell me who owns the Cerro Casale Gold reserves. I may want to buy some of their stock.

mhchuck (1/5/00; 11:08:38MDT - Msg ID:22348)
Final Post.

All roads lead to gold.



mhchuck.

TownCrier (1/5/00; 10:58:13MDT - Msg ID:22347)
G-7 to Discuss Yen's Rise at Tokyo Meeting This Month
http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?ptitle=U.S.%20Economy&s1=blk&tp=ad_topright_econ&T=markets_fgcgi_content99.ht&s2=blk&bt=blk&s=865421e4a8d064ee16ac68eebce51b21
A good Bloomberg article to walk you through Japan's currency problems. The government wants the yen to be weaker to benefit exporters...ostensibly to bolster the economy in general and not just the corporate profits, and to benefit a class of Japanese investors by protecting the value of investments that they are currently holding abroad. (In this latter case, eventually the investors decide to cash out of their foreign investments and bring their profits home. If the yen is strong compared to the currency that denominated the investment, then they don't end up with as many yen to show for their efforts...although the yen they WOULD have would be stronger. Go figure. At any rate, you can see clearly that the class of citizen that gets the shaft is the simple domestic worker and saver that holds yen.)

Japan wants other members of the G-7 to assist in the efforts to flood the world with yen, but so far they've been told that they are on their own in this management matter. The Bank of Japan did finally capitulate to a degree in September, throwing honor out the window and making changes to their money market operations to allow for an increase in the yen supply. September has been the point (as we discussed in two important posts yesterday) at which the yen and the dollar have joined arms to stride into the fiat boneyard accompanied by Elgar's "Pomp and Circumstance March No. 1".

Meanwhile, the Euro has reached nearly a 2-month high. Get the drift?

rsjacksr (1/5/00; 10:25:45MDT - Msg ID:22346)
Re: Gandalf the White (1/5/00; 9:37:34MDT - Msg ID:22340)
The Hobbits want to know -- What happened to the price of the Long Bond at 11:31 NY time ?
30-year Treasury Bond Index Industry:
INDEX: TYX.X
Delayed as of 01/5/2000 12:17 EST
Last Sale 65.85
Change 0.53
% Change 0.81%
Volume 495
© Quote.com 1999


ORO (1/5/00; 10:22:38MDT - Msg ID:22345)
PERMAFROST
PERMAFROST (1/5/00; 3:32:33MDT - Msg ID:22314)

---->On the other hand, Profit is the acquiring of UNEARNED wealth. Now this would have been the case if the farmer received more than the "extra grain" the earth is capable of giving [impossible in earth's case but NOT SO where the digital presses of the bankers are concerned]; or if the worker whose skills rightly qualified him for a job with a salary of 2,000 dollars were to get 4,000 instead [his boss would never concede to such a thing; but their "boss", Alan Greenspan, delivers the extra green to his masters on a silver platter along with their morning WSJ].
----> As for the businessman, prey tell, how can it be justifiable or acceptable that a creature as morally and intellectually bankrupt as Bill Gates be allowed to lord it over so much wealth and power [all due to an overlooked detail in his contract with IBM, if I recall correctly]?

As you are revealing, one needs to use violence in order to gain UNEARNED wealth. Government, in "realpolitic" terms is the organization with the control of more means of violence than any others in a given territory. Violence is the only means of gaining from uneconomic activity, which is that activity that produces no profit. The warrior collects the fruit of other's labors by putting the producers to the sword and taking their production.
To equate Greenspan's actions as an agent of government with those of a Bill Gates in his heyday (the early 80s, not today), is absurd. What the Rothchilds and the Barings do in concert with government is not of the same stuff of free markets and personal actions. They do not produce profit, the produce booty, and their business is better known as plunder.
The true business opportunity exploited by Gates and Jobs right along with him, was to make use of inventions of others, that were not making the expected profit for their original inventors, most notably the ossified Xerox, and putting them to use by selling DOS to IBM or creating the Mac. These acts of vision and judgement are those bearing the greatest rewards. IBM's "overlooked detail" is in reality a lack of understanding, vision, and a lapse of judgement. They deserved what they got.
---->As for your justification of debt--I think you referred to it as "renta"--as the instrument or catalyst whereby the otherwise-impossible accomplishment of MORE would not have been envisagable...
----What's the rationale for having, desiring this "MORE"?
----Why should we literally waste most of our limited lifespan on this Earth towards a frenzic orgy to produce ever MORE people, pollution, misery, depletion of natural resources? instead of devoting the time we have left once daily chores are taken care of to LESS (intellectual and spiritual growth; religion or philosophy, according to one's temper)?
----This is the very "Life of Contemplation" that produced (sic) the rational foundation of the (Western) Civilization you now are the champion of?
----Why must you have "now, what you could otherwise not afford"?
These are the choices people make on an individual bassis. Perhaps the "life of contemplation" is more fulfilling to our spiritual well being when our stomachs are full, when we lay on the soft bed in a warm house flicking channels on a 500 channel contemplation machine with a 60 inch screen?

TownCrier (1/5/00; 10:15:05MDT - Msg ID:22344)
Is Brazil on the ropes? Their foreign exchange reserves have plunged 16% since the end of November
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/000105/nk.html
With these international reserves being Brazil's primary ammunition to fight off unwanted currency fluctuations in the foreign exchange market, you've got to be somewhat concerned by the 16% depletion since December began to the current level of $35.388 billion. By no means was all of this amount accounted for by their program of offering dollar-denominated repos through the century date change.

TownCrier (1/5/00; 10:03:54MDT - Msg ID:22343)
Here's one for TheStranger...HEADLINE: Strong U.S. Growth Will Push Up Service Prices
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/000105/to.html
In a teleconference today, Ralph Kauffman, chairman of the National Association of Purchasing Management's non-manufacturing survey committee, said, "If the economy continues to grow strongly, price pressures (in the non-manufacturing sector) will continue."

TownCrier (1/5/00; 9:56:31MDT - Msg ID:22342)
Fed adds $6.8 billion to bolster reserves of the banking system
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/000105/rb.html
Today we have a comment that confirms our suspicion of yesterday when we stated: "you will see that economists don't have a clue as to what prescription is called for at this time. If the *experts* can't see what must be done (add vs. drain reserves) we are surely on thin ice of some sort."
James Blumenthal, Fed watcher at MCM Moneywatch, told Reuters "I wouldn't be surprised to see them come in and do matched sales sometime soon. But they themselves (the Fed) ... are also playing this day-by-day." The Fed had stayed on the sidelines for the second straight day during their regular 9:30 open-market intervention period...with overnight repo operations remaining a possibility.

Kim Rupert, economist at Standard & Poor's MMS, admitted that though an add need seemed to remain, there were too many factors to make a reliable prediction, saying, "it depends on how fast a lot of these factors run off. We know the schedules for maturing repos but we don't know the others."

Shortly thereafter the Fed did indeed participate in $6.8 billion in overnight repurchase agreements to provide the reserves needed by the banking system.

Gurn Blanston (1/5/00; 9:52:29MDT - Msg ID:22341)
Permafrost: IMHO means?
www.usagold.com/cpmforum
My guess is that "IMHO" means "In My Humble Opinion."

Gurn Blanston

Gandalf the White (1/5/00; 9:37:34MDT - Msg ID:22340)
HELP ! --
The Hobbits want to know -- What happened to the price of the Long Bond at 11:31 NY time ?
<;-)

Gandalf the White (1/5/00; 9:36:19MDT - Msg ID:22339)
Test
<;-)

Cavan Man (1/5/00; 8:25:24MDT - Msg ID:22338)
PERMAFROST
IMHO-In my humble opinion

USAGOLD (1/5/00; 8:19:43MDT - Msg ID:22337)
Today's Gold Market Report
Market Report (1/5/00): Gold gave up a little more ground today in the
New Year adjustment that began yesterday. FWN reports one London trader
as saying "The market is supported at $280, with some solid buying
coming in at this level. I think we may see some more short-covering
from the US this afternoon." The stock market is getting some support
this morning after the announcement yesterday that Alan Greenspan will
stay on for another four year term. That support, however, appears thin.
Asian trade was quiet with no surprises. Most of the Asian action was
centered around the platinum market where traders can't decipher whether
or not Russia is going to deliver any significant amount of the white
metal in the near future. One wonders what the Japanese really want.
They have a fear verging on paranoia over any weakness in the dollar and
move resolutely at the slightest provocation to squash their own
currency. Meanwhile, their forex reserves gained $16.1 billion in
December -- a record high level. According to the Bridge News report
last night, the CFTC is delaying processing its gold numbers due to a
non-Y2K computer glitch. The report being quoted in various media
contains "incomplete or inaccurate information" according to the news
agency. The surprise so far in 2000 has been the strength of the euro --
now in the $104 range.

That's it for today. We'll see you here tomorrow.

phaedrus (1/5/00; 8:10:35MDT - Msg ID:22336)
impressive
Got real time quotes here...just saw the Nasdaq 100 futures drop 50 points in less than 3 seconds. Now down about another 150 points.

Yowza.

Come on Mr. Market, you know I've got put spreads on, don't tease me...don't tease me...

Peter Asher (1/5/00; 8:06:15MDT - Msg ID:22335)
RossL
"lost in the fog of collectivism"

Simple, and succinctly exact

Blue Sky (1/5/00; 8:01:57MDT - Msg ID:22334)
Ramblings
Good Morning All
Peter post 22300 re; Walmart competing w/e-bus...I know they are working at setting up their own, but I cannot envision them selling much at a lower price+shipping than they do at their physical stores. Nor do I see any e-bus competing in their market at this time or next few years. They and Target(plus others) attract the price not quality purchasing consumer, you get what you pay for, a MTD mower vs a John Deere.
Now if they set it up such that you e-mail your order for dederant and sox, then we pick-up at the drive-up window. Hmmm ,,,register that as my I idea, Do I need a Trademark or Patent???
I listened to a good book on tape, "Gravity". I didn't write down the author, about super virus from outerspace.
Steve H re; OIL.... Co I'm leased to locked in diesel at $1.229 for Jan. .05 cheaper than Dec. 31...Maybe reserves not as depleated as stated.
Maybe I'll be able to pay off my Y2K purchases at a higher rate of earnings. Spent NYears Eve with a vocal detractor of the Bug,,,got to eat my crow w/humble pie. Still smiling though , I still have my insurance premiums in hand.
I GOT GOLD, and always will have.
Blue SKY to all

PS : Scrappy ,how you doing?

Peter Asher (1/5/00; 7:56:22MDT - Msg ID:22333)
Ross,CM Peramafrost
Since the fur is flying on this suject
this morning, I'm posting a part of an as yet incomplete article.

Fair exchange is not Marxism. Marx preached "From each according to his ability and to each according to his need." That is properly called THEFT. When he said "Workers of the world, unite, you have nothing to lose but your chains." he was talking about the power of the holders of the means of production to command cheap labor by having cornered the market on land and factories.
In response to that inequity, he came up with it's antithesis.

Many philosophers have perpetuated a massive lie by being idolized for a profound truth and emotionally blind-siding their worshipers to the falsehoods. The reason that Capitalism and communism have been the fodder for conflict is that each has within it an ethical truth and also a means for exploitation. The follower of each, is impassioned with that ethical truth and resists being aware of the harmful aspect.

flierdude (1/5/00; 7:55:21MDT - Msg ID:22332)
What do you think of this? F.O.A. Oro Stranger Others?
Date: Wed Jan 05 2000 04:24
GoldBird1a (Armstrong-Republic-manipulations) ID#396247:
Copyright © 1999 GoldBird1a/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Whilst I have read a lot on this site about Armstrong and his supposed short gold position etc etc etc. I just thought
everyone should know that it is all BS. I have worked insided Republic Bank and quite frankly the whole thing stinks of a
major set up intended to frame Armstrong big time. Armstrong was right about the manipulation of silver and a whole lot
more . Not only was silver manipulated, they do it all the time. If you want to know the truth, it was Republic who has
been behind almost every manipulation I know of for at least the last 10 years, I've seen it first hand. Buffet is not lilly
white and this silver purchase of his was not the first. The manipulation by PhiBro in 1995 when they exercised the call
options way out of the money was executed by Andy Heck who now works for Republic. The CFTC went to PhiBro
demanding to know who the client was behind the trade and they refused to give up the name. The CFTC did not do
their job as usual and just walked away demanding that they exit the trade. PhiBro was owned by Soloman Bros and the
authorization to squeeze silver was given personally by Buffet. Does anyone really think that a small sub like PhiBro
could do a $1 billion trade without board approval from above? It doesn't end there. Bribes were paid to Russian
officials to "recall" platinum so it could be inventoried. Republic helped Tiger corner the market in palladium and stored it
for them just like they moved the silver from NY to London for Buffet. This thing even goes back to the manipulation of
the US Treas Auctions. The gov't boys are so stupid, when they threatened to take the license away from Soloman
Bros, Buffet came to the rescue. Ha! He was behind that trade as well and his name was concealed then as always.
Then that trader left and started LTCM and had a real merry old time. Look at who his investors were! Just before it
blew up, Buffet agreed to bailout that operation and wrote a letter stating that if his offer was ever revealed, it would be
void. That letter was published in the WSJ because it blew up before Buffet could put the deal to bed.

The point is, Armstrong was trying to fight the crowd. He knew what was going on and the word inside the bank was
that he might even have tapes of converstions between a lot of the players. Everyone is really worried about that for sure.
These guys take the market up get all you suckers believing the rally is real and then slam it again. How do you think they
make their billions? They don't care about bull markets. They shag the markets to make their billions off of the people
who don't have a clue. They rotate between the markets. All the same names were on the short-side in copper.
Sumitomo tried to fight these guys. They baited the Japanese into the trades offering them untold credit. They then would
short copper against them. Sumitomo tried to defend their position and ended up buying the entire inventory. When they
had Sumitomo loaded, they ran to the authorities and did them in calling it a manipulation. They made a fortune on that
short trade. To add insult to injury, Sumitomo ran to Goldman Sacks for help, Goldman started selling thousands of
contracts in copper that day and then accepted the work out the following day after front-running their own client. Jimmy
Goldsmith was involved in this one as well as Safra, Tiger and a host of others. They amazingly are all on the right side of
everyone of these trades.

Hell - bribes were even paid to bank officials at the Central Bank of Thailand to start the Asian Crisis! That was the
evidence the Japanese took to the G7 meeting and demanded controls against the organized hedge funds. The US gov't
refused to do anything against the group of players because this thing is so dirty nobody wants the truth out there. They
told the Japs they would agree to sanctions only. That's why Armstrong is being served up as the Xmas turkey. Quite
frankly, he knows too much.

Safra was paying bribes to people inside the IMF as well. They all thought they had the IMF in their pocket. That's why
they all invested so much into Russia. They even set up Bank of New York on behalf of a revial group of thugs in Russia
and because Republic hates Bank of New York because they are not part of the club.

These markets are never going to breakout until someone breaks up this organized mob of billionares. The gov't is either
too stupid or they are involved with them ==== a high probability! After all, Armstrong had a $1 billion credit line in the
bank and everyone knew it. Suddenly, his credit line was pulled and Republic took $500 million of his clients money
pretending it was never there. That order came from good old Mr. Safra himself and was carried out by George
Wendler personally. And if anyone believes that story about Safra's death, I guess they believe in Santa Claus and a few
other sudden deaths when the heat got turned up. If Armstrong or his clients got Safra on the stand, the whole thing
could have unravelled. His bodyguard was changed just after this affair started. You fill in the blanks.

Armstrong was never short 700 tons of gold. In fact, to get the silver manipulation going, Armstrong was out of the
country and they ran their orders through Republic to make everyone think it was Armstrong covering short positions he
never had. The records are all there!

All this stuff is on tapes, docs and emails. The question is, will the gov't go along with the big boys and cover everything
up again? If so, they say already Armstrong won't make it to trial. They cannot afford a open trial with everything
Armstrong knows. He probably knows far more than what has been written here. They just can't afford for the world to
know how rigged this game truly is and how these billionares really make their money at the expense of everyone else.

That's the real story. Take it for what it's worth.

Return to Kitco Homepage


PERMAFROST (1/5/00; 7:41:25MDT - Msg ID:22331)
OK RossL...
Thanks for pointing out that the difference between the symptom and the disease causing it...

As for me, time to go. Goodnight everyone!

PERMAFROST (1/5/00; 7:40:20MDT - Msg ID:22330)
OK RossL...
Thanks for pointing out that the difference between the symptom and the disease causing it...

As for me, time to go. Goodnight eveyone!

RossL (1/5/00; 7:29:31MDT - Msg ID:22329)
Permafrost

I'm afraid you may have missed the point. The only way someone could keep a 100:1 profit ratio is through force or corrupt government laws. "Profit" or usury is not the villain. Force and corrupt government is.


PERMAFROST (1/5/00; 7:21:36MDT - Msg ID:22328)
RossL...
100-1=99. Not OK by me. Others in the past, and I'm talking about History, actually "disagreed" a bit more. Bloodshed and misery ensued. That OK with you as well?

PERMAFROST (1/5/00; 7:16:46MDT - Msg ID:22327)
CM...
Like all of us, you will one day die. I hope you will be able to look back and see SOMETHING you've done that was better than the posting of your recent message.
the act you're disparaging gave us Jesus and Gandhi and many others you could not pronounce the names. I guess "Hitler" and "Clinton" rolls off your tongue easily enough?
How 'bout Greenspam? (pun intended.)

RossL (1/5/00; 7:15:37MDT - Msg ID:22326)
Permafrost

"What I'm saying is this: Do you think it would be right to sell something that costs you 1 to produce and market on a regular basis for 100?"

If I desired the product and it was the cheapest price I could find, it would be OK. If it were not a free market transaction, and you had used force or government laws to limit your competition, then it would not be OK.


nickel62 (1/5/00; 7:15:29MDT - Msg ID:22325)
I need to find a post from several days back relating to China
I need to locate a post from several days ago relating to China and the statement of a Chinese official that they might consider increasing their gold weighting. Can someone please tell me if there is a searchengine on the Forum that would help me retrieve the needed post without searching manually. Thanks

PERMAFROST (1/5/00; 7:03:11MDT - Msg ID:22324)
Dear RossL..
What I'm saying is this: Do you think it would be right to sell something that costs you 1 to produce and market on a regular basis for 100?
Then answer this one: would it be right for you to sell AT ANY PRICE something that costs you NOTHING to produce on a regular basis? The latter is exactly what the bankers are doing.
I'm not saying don't buy what's necessary to make your product. Just don't SCREW people--and don't get SCREWED!
That's all I'm saying, my friend!

Al Fulchino (1/5/00; 6:56:11MDT - Msg ID:22323)
Steve H/Pinball Wizard
Great analogy. Back in my younger days, I always sought out the machine with the best odds. When we found it, we played it until it smoked <literally>. Sooner or later the owners realized there little profitability in the machine or took it away and junked it. When, the current manipulators of gold realize that they can't squeeze any more money from the machine, either small gold owners like you and I will lose <have taken away> our gold and or the rules will change. All the same I would rather own it and take my chances.

PERMAFROST (1/5/00; 6:55:41MDT - Msg ID:22322)
Cavan Man...
YES! You put it very well. I wholly agree with what you're saying. I decided not to add anything more on this topic as its focus is getting lost in cyber haze.
Now, could you tell me what "IMHO" stands for?

Thanks!

Cavan Man (1/5/00; 6:34:13MDT - Msg ID:22321)
ORO: (SteveH 22310)
Sir Knight,

In replying to SteveH could you please highlight the significance of the Jamaica Accords or perhaps do so in a subsequent post? Thank you.

Cavan Man (1/5/00; 6:31:25MDT - Msg ID:22320)
PERMAFROST
I see we have a "CM" posting here now. I believe your message is intended for that party.

IMHO, there can be no utopian economic organization of humanity in this life for us. Any supposed "perfect system" will surely be corrupted by the proclivity of our species to, corrupt and, gain individual and collective advantage from any economic order. What we can hope for is continued remediation of economic injustice and the unintended consequences wrought by the system(s) utilized today. Only in the hearts not the minds of man can harmonious economic accord be found for all. It is in the heart (and soul) of man where the problem lies IMHO.

Should the world economic system as we know it today be wrought asunder, it would no doubt be replaced with another model of imperfection and corresponding inequality.

The Euro may be just another patch on the bicycle tire but for this moment in monetary history, it will serve better than nothing.

Enjoy your posts much.

RossL (1/5/00; 6:13:58MDT - Msg ID:22319)
Permafrost
quote
"On the other hand, Profit is the acquiring of UNEARNED wealth. Now this would have been the case if the farmer received more than the "extra grain" the earth is capable of giving [impossible in earth's case but NOT SO where the digital presses of the bankers..."

I'm trying to follow your logic. It's OK to use the earth to create wealth, but not OK to use other people to create wealth? Right? How does the farmer grow extra crops without the tools sold to him by someone else at a profit? How do we get past the hunter/gatherer stage in civilization? I am lost into the fog of collectivism when I try to justify this concept in my mind.



SteveH (1/5/00; 6:04:22MDT - Msg ID:22318)
Canamami
Ah...the Carlin Trend...

Regarding 'allowed to fall,' I believe that is the logical conclusion of ORO's piece, explicit or implicit. The deal was oil-gold-dollars. The effect was a steady or lower gas pump price in dollars, oil for gold, and ultimately cheaper gold for dollars. At some point, in a decade or liftime later, gold would rise. Most us hope that gold would rise now, but not at the expense of oil or dollars, but someone seems to have backed all of us into a corner such that to like gold means all the rest. Not fair, exactly, you know.

I believe it takes up to five years to bring a mine into production so there would be a lag once mines like you mention are brought on line.

CM (1/5/00; 5:51:52MDT - Msg ID:22317)
PERMAFROST Re Profit/Bill Gates -- msg #22315
I was quite amused by your remarks on the "evils" of private enterprise.

Guess I missed the news of Bill Gates being hauled before some high tribunal and being found to be "morally and intellectually bankrupt." (But with all of his money, he probably didn't mind it so much.)

Also wasn't aware that all of Gates' wealth was simply due to some "overlooked detail in his contract with IBM." You must be referring to his retaining the rights to the original disk operating system (DOS). I believe that Mr. Gates made quite a few other fortunate decisions that, over a period of time, allowed him to amass a great fortune.

But since you have decided that Mr. Gates obviously doesn't deserve to be rich -- let me help out. I hereby volunteer to take all of that "filthy lucre" off of his hands (heh heh).

Let's see, oh yes, concerning the "Life of Contemplation." I agree 100%. People shouldn't be allowed to control their own lives. We just can't trust them! I hereby volunteer to spend the rest of my pointless existence in studying the mysteries of life. Of course you'll help me out, won't you? I can probaby get by on an annual stipend of $30,000 or so. Shall I send you my mailing address for the checks?



Black Blade (1/5/00; 4:23:26MDT - Msg ID:22316)
Asian markets hammered, Wall Street set to open higher.
S&P futures are steadily rising (currently +10.80), Au off $0.50 at $281.70. Off to the races at the market open? Meanwhile Pacific rim markets take a beating. Hang Seng off over 1200 pts (7%+ decline), Nikkei down about 800 pts. etc. Crude down again (currently -0.39). Could be an interesting day again.

PERMAFROST (1/5/00; 3:33:42MDT - Msg ID:22315)
ORO Re Profit/Usury/Renta Msg. ID: 22255
Due to ingrained intellectual "habit", You are confusing 'profit' with 'necessary and beneficial generation of wealth'.

The "extra grain" the farmer, the wage of the laborer, or the Market's rewarding of the more efficient therefore more successful businessman by putting the money (proxy for wealth) in HIS hands which have proven themselves to be better at managing it fall into the latter category. And they are good and necessary, as common sense dictates.
On the other hand, Profit is the acquiring of UNEARNED wealth. Now this would have been the case if the farmer received more than the "extra grain" the earth is capable of giving [impossible in earth's case but NOT SO where the digital presses of the bankers are concerned]; or if the worker whose skills rightly qualified him for a job with a salary of 2,000 dollars were to get 4,000 instead [his boss would never concede to such a thing; but their "boss", Alan Greenspan, delivers the extra green to his masters on a silver platter along with their morning WSJ].

As for the businessman, prey tell, how can it be justifiable or acceptable that a creature as morally and intellectually bankrupt as Bill Gates be allowed to lord it over so much wealth and power [all due to an overlooked detail in his contract with IBM, if I recall correctly]?

I also read in the editorials section of GOLD-EAGLE--I think the piece was called "On the Side of the Golden Angels"--that the actual wealth of the Rothschilds must be several hundred TRILLON dollars by now, if they only turned a profit(sic) of 6-7% per year on their capital. ???????

As for your justification of debt--I think you referred to it as "renta"--as the instrument or catalyst whereby the otherwise-impossible accomplishment of MORE would not have been envisagable...

What's the rationale for having, desiring this "MORE"?
Why should we literally waste most of our limited lifespan on this Earth towards a frenzic orgy to produce ever MORE people, pollution, misery, depletion of natural resources? instead of devoting the time we have left once daily chores are taken care of to LESS (intellectual and spiritual growth; religion or philosophy, according to one's temper)?

This is the very "Life of Contemplation" that produced (sic) the rational foundation of the (Western) Civilization you now are the champion of?

Why must you have "now, what you could otherwise not afford"?

PERMAFROST (1/5/00; 3:32:33MDT - Msg ID:22314)
ORO Re Profit/Usury/Renta Msg. ID: 22255
Due to ingrained intellectual "habit", You are confusing 'profit' with 'necessary and beneficial generation of wealth'.

The "extra grain" the farmer, the wage of the laborer, or the Market's rewarding of the more efficient therefore more successful businessman by putting the money (proxy for wealth) in HIS hands which have proven themselves to be better at managing it fall into the latter category. And they are good and necessary, as common sense dictates.
On the other hand, Profit is the acquiring of UNEARNED wealth. Now this would have been the case if the farmer received more than the "extra grain" the earth is capable of giving [impossible in earth's case but NOT SO where the digital presses of the bankers are concerned]; or if the worker whose skills rightly qualified him for a job with a salary of 2,000 dollars were to get 4,000 instead [his boss would never concede to such a thing; but their "boss", Alan Greenspan, delivers the extra green to his masters on a silver platter along with their morning WSJ].

As for the businessman, prey tell, how can it be justifiable or acceptable that a creature as morally and intellectually bankrupt as Bill Gates be allowed to lord it over so much wealth and power [all due to an overlooked detail in his contract with IBM, if I recall correctly]?

I also read in the editorials section of GOLD-EAGLE--I think the piece was called "On the Side of the Golden Angels"--that the actual wealth of the Rothschilds must be several hundred TRILLON dollars by now, if they only turned a profit(sic) of 6-7% per year on their capital. ???????

As for your justification of debt--I think you referred to it as "renta"--as the instrument or catalyst whereby the otherwise-impossible accomplishment of MORE would not have been envisagable...

What's the rationale for having, desiring this "MORE"?
Why should we literally waste most of our limited lifespan on this Earth towards a frenzic orgy to produce ever MORE people, pollution, misery, depletion of natural resources? instead of devoting the time we have left once daily chores are taken care of to LESS (intellectual and spiritual growth; religion or philosophy, according to one's temper)?

This is the very "Life of Contemplation" that produced (sic) the rational foundation of the (Western) Civilization you now are the champion of?

Why must you have "now, what you could otherwise not afford"?

el St.One (1/5/00; 2:35:33MDT - Msg ID:22313)
Y2K
http://www.dingdingding.com/commentary
Massive Y2K Coverup by some major media houses and government: NO Serious problems after the
rollover! Some talking heads now suggesting that the bug might even have been a hoax! Even Bill Griffeth of CNBC when
interviewing Y2K-expert, Peter DeJager. Don't believe a word of it. There were hundreds of largely unreported, problems and
glitches - some very serious. Watch for our Y2K Coverup story and follow-up right here beginning January 7, 2000. Be
sure to tell your friends and any fact-based or reality-based media you know. We want to encourage any media with a conscience
to report some of these stories. And please send us your emails with any links to Y2K news that we can research and verify.

Is the so-called Y2K problem solved? Worse: Was it all a hoax? Let's turn ... not to the so-called Y2K experts ... but to a
source most of us would agree is reliable, at least in this one instance: "The full impact of the year 2000 computer glitch
will be largely hidden until mid to late January, the head of a U.N.-sponsored Y2K data clearinghouse said on
Wednesday" (ABC News online). According to Bruce McConnell, head of the International Y2K Cooperation Center, which is
funded by the World Bank, "lots of inconveniences" will "'erode productivity and possibly disrupt world trade." Was Y2K all
about the power and water going out on January 1st as some so-called Y2K experts and the major media would have us believe?
Since so little happened on January 1st, was the whole thing a "hoax" as some would suggest?

McConnell said, on December 29, 1999, that "The computers that control electricity and telecommunications perform
management functions for the most part ... And so even if there is a Y2K problem, it doesn't cause the power to go out
or the phones to go out." The question then is this: why is the media basing its reports of total success on the very thing the
government and World Bank say was never a serious problem? And the smaller problems have either not yet been reported - or
have not yet happened - during the first three days of January.


canamami (1/5/00; 2:03:11MDT - Msg ID:22312)
Reply to SteveH
Two quick comments after a quick scan of your excellent, well-reasoned posts.

"Gold was "allowed" to fall." Sounds like it would have to be forced down by one awesome conspiracy, that somehow essentially didn't leak out for a long time. This does not accord with my experience of humanity.

"Gold production could not keep up with oil production". The point being, at the market price of gold and oil. The Cerro Casale reserves, with which you are familiar, is generally viewed as holding about 23 million ounces of reserves - all we need is $350 an ounce gold. We're also aware of a certain, still undeveloped/not fully explored project in the Carlin Trend, which would be in better shape (as well as our pocketbooks) if gold were a good $70 to $120 an ounce higher. I'm sure there are others upon others of possible projects which could fly if the POG were higher. Gold production would then catch up very quickly.

SteveH (1/5/00; 1:06:31MDT - Msg ID:22311)
repost
www.kitco.com
repost:

Date: Wed Jan 05 2000 02:44
Jack (CaptainKirk...Peabody don't like them banknumber either and dirivatives may ruin Barrack too) ID#210169:
Copyright © 1999 Jack/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

What if the investments that Barrack has placed the gold loan proceeds in go belly up?

Complacency Abounds

Today's Wall Street Journal was replete with complacency. Of the 53 economists surveyed, not a single one was forecasting an inflation rate ( as measured by the CPI ) of over 3.0% in the first half of the year 2000, and only two forecasted 3%. On average, economists are forecasting only a 2.5% rate of inflation in 1H’00, versus the 2.3% rate at year-end 1999. Given what the commodity indices are telling us ( see my report entitled "Commodity Inflation is Broad-Based" dated December 30, 1999 ) , I would like to take the other side of that trade, particularly if the Fed continues to drag its feet. My position remains that the long bond will see a 7% handle in the first half of this year ( i.e., a 4% risk premium on top of core inflation of over 3% ) .

Why should anyone care? Because of the amount of leverage in the system. The one product area where leverage dwarfs the system is in derivatives. Of the $35.7 trillion in notional value of derivative contracts, some $28.2 trillion ( or 79% ) is related to interest rate instruments. As over 90% of these contracts are "over-the-counter" and 60% have a maturity of greater than 1 year, they expose the participants to greater credit risk and tend to be less liquid. J.P. Morgan ( JPM-$123-SELL ) , Chase Manhattan Corp. ( CMB-$73-SELL ) and Citigroup ( C-$54-Not Rated ) derive the greatest dollar amount of trading revenues from interest rate-related derivatives, but these instruments also represent significant risk to end users ( e.g., Fannie Mae [FNM-$59-SELL], Bank of America [BAC-$49-SELL], First Tennessee National Corp. [FTN-$27-SELL], etc. ) .

Admittedly, as an outsider, an investor can't be 100% sure ( given the poor disclosure ) whether a bank is managing its derivative exposures well. But then again, investors can't be assured that, when rates rise as much as they have, a bank is not in harms way, either. My gut tells me that, after two decades of disinflation ( which tends to create a new permanent mindset ) and repeated benign forecasts ( such as those in today's Wall Street Journal ) in the face of rising pressures, most bankers are not yet positioned for a lasting rise in rates ( see report entitled "Higher Rates Still Impacting Industry" dated December 29, 1999 ) . In short, I expect interest sensitive sources of income to continue to disappoint as the industry adjusts to a new "inflationary" environment. Be long commodities!

SteveH (1/5/00; 0:58:09MDT - Msg ID:22310)
ORO
You're incredible, man!

I spent several hours reading and re-reading your material.

You are coorborating Another and FOA. You are validating their message. You are saying that physical gold delivery is in jeapordy against paper-contracts.

Most importantly you are saying that gold's role in world economic affairs is as strong as it ever was, it has merely been placed in reserve ball section of the big economic pinball game in order to allow the dollar ball its turn on the board and it has been bouncing around since 1971. As long as the dollar was the only ball able to be played, all the bumpers and flippers have been keeping it bouncing around and using the ball to keep the game the game going.

For some reason, it became politically unexpedient to have gold be tradeable currency when the dollar defaulted gold in 1971. It even became dangerous to have gold be considered an alternative and so it was allowed to drop in price to where we are today. And that is why gold isn't popular and yet remains the most sought after asset next to oil of any asset. Incredible move on the players part.

To rephrase, gold and gold backed currency abounded up until 1971. Dollar defaults, then gold begins a ten-year meteoric rise in price until 1980. From 1980 gold is seen as a loosing proposition by citizens while in the background gold is traded off line just like before except with a twist of derivatives and hedges. In the first 3/4 century it was "gold-is-official." In the ensuing years, it was gold is "dead" but <snicker> it really isn't because we will just use gold and trade it off market and hidden from view but we all know how important it was, is, and will be.

Somewhere along the way and in the last five years, oil demand outstripped the ability of gold production and pricing to keep up and so now we have a supply-demand disparity of 30K tons if I am reading you correctly. That is 30,000 tons of gold that needs to be settled up some how and what we are witnessing now is how the folks who are interested in settling this matter are trying to figure out how to do that without destroying the dollar and causing gold to replace the Euro ball in line for the board or the gold ball from replacing them all on the board. In any event, the way this plays out depends on many factors, none of which you nor I have control over, except to say buy physical now while it is cheap because yours and FOA's and Anothers and MAK's and Ari's and Strangers and Peter's And Gandalfs and TC's and TC's and all the remainder of us believe that no matter what the folks do with flippers and bumbers, the fact remains that the shoot at the bottom, the one between the flippers is ready and waiting for the dollar ball and just because the folks are trying to shake the game table without tilting it, there will be a tilt and the ball will drop and be replaced with the Euro ball. Is that pretty much what you were getting at?

Netking (1/5/00; 0:56:05MDT - Msg ID:22309)
Nasdaq - The morning after the day before
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000104/bs/stocks_nasdaq_7.html
After Nasdaq's biggest ever one day points fall (8th in terms of percent) what's in store today? More of the same or consolidation or mutuals looking for buying oportunities(smile).


ORO (1/5/00; 0:39:10MDT - Msg ID:22308)
SteveH - Internal vs external debt
The main point is that the EU and most of its members have no external debt. They are net creditors of other countries. There is no overhang of EU bonds in every central bank in the world.

The internal debt is similar to debts within your household. The familly is not in danger of losing the house because of it.




Click Here to view yesterday's discussion.

Permission to reprint is hereby granted where the USAGOLD name is cited along with our web address, mailing address and phone number. For electronic reproductions, citing the post heading and the http://www.usagold.com/cpmforum/ website address as the source is sufficient.

Thursday May 24
website support: sitemaster@usagold.com
Site Map - Privacy- Disclaimer
The USAGOLD logo and stylized gold coin pile are trademarks of Michael J. Kosares.
© 1997-2012 Michael J. Kosares / USAGOLD All Rights Reserved