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Welcome to the USAGOLD Gold Discussion Archives. The archives of this gold discussion forum are a treasure trove of information to educate investors about protecting their wealth through portfolio diversification with private gold ownership. The discussion forum also covers the wider issues of the past, present, and future role of gold in international monetary policy and the dynamics of the modern gold markets...   (Discussion Forum Hall of Fame) (The Gold Trail) ("Thoughts!" by ANOTHER)   The opinions posted by all guests are expressly their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the management or staff of USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals. The hosting of the public discussion shall therefore not be construed as an endorsement by USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals of any of the opinions posted here.

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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 7/4/2005
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

(Yesterday's Discussion.)

Sundeck (7/4/05; 23:50:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 133786)
Religious comment
@PRITCHO et al.

"Amen"...or should that be "Hey Man!"

(Dang Pritcho, you gone done roon'd my day...now don't say NUTTIN' about Santa... or the Tooth Fairy!!)

More seriously, I too have a very strong religious pedigree going way back to the U.S. religious right...or was it the left??? (I prefer to think of it as the upside-down.)

...and even MORE seriously, I hate to stifle free speech...perhaps, as a compromise, such comment could be restricted to the ****Sunday portion**** of Open Forum.

Admin: Please feel free to freely delete this piece of freedom of expression...I won't be offended.

Cheers

;-)

PRITCHO (7/4/05; 23:26:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 133785)
ONGOING GOD MESSAGES - - - - - BORING !
I was not going to express my views on the above BUT this site has become unbearable for me today.Give born agains an excuse ---any excuse & they will take advantage to preach.Two days in a row is a bit much.

DollarBill you've used more than your share of band width-
pushing your religious dogma down others throats.The one thing that should be a NO GO area on this site is religion.
I hope the PTB are listening.

Frankly I feel very sorry for your children -having dogma forced into one at a young age is criminal & defies logic.
I know --my parents were religious loops who forced me to go to church & who read the bible every evening before retiring.They didn't drink,gamble or swear(unlike me) & gave 10% to the "missionaries".They also believed(literally)that the earth was created in an amazingly short time,that Jonah really was swallowed by a whale & that Noah loaded ALL the worlds creatures into a Boat to ride out the flood.

Luckily I survived all that & have no belief in a God what-so ever. I also do appreciate some of the moral values I learnt.What's different is that I don't bring up my thoughts on religion in public --unless confronted by missionary zeal.From what I've read & observed there are
more problems caused by religion in America -than anything else.Your preacher men certainly know how to whip up the masses.

At 60 being the way I am hasn't stopped me from living life in a fair & considerate to others manner - - nor in teaching my 16yr old son good values.He will be going on to university & goes to a private school - his religious values have not been flavoured by my own prejudices. Also while I very much watch what he does on his computer & for how long - I have never used net-nanny or similar. If he goes to a porn site & has a look I would not need to freak out.He's been told what he needs to know. I can't & won't force him to be a clone of me.

This has been way too long - -please give religion a big miss on this site. Free talk on what's shaping the world is
gratefully accepted.

No need for a reply or advice - you to Goldilox :)



Chris Powell (7/4/05; 22:58:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 133784)
China's bid for Unocal is acknowledged as a move out of U.S. bonds
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/3197
Latest GATA dispatch.



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Dollar Bill (7/4/05; 21:42:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 133783)
.,.
I guess I am just going to have to accept this about you Goldilox, you are overly generous layering your thoughts on top of anothers, thereby changeing it quite a bit!
example.. "I am encouraged by your and $Bill's recognition of the political charlatans who hide behind the Bible to promote a very violent covert political agenda."

You know, even if you have -reasons- why you think people should behave, there is no legal justification based in anything other than another mans changeable opinion if there is no god.
The impact of unclear relativeism, in peoples personal lives and when courts make decisions, is huge.
It does not matter what YOUR intent is as you engage others if there is no god and then there is no -rule- that means anything at all actually. And if there is no god, the smart man is the tyrant, and is actually the only sensible man who is being true to his nature, which is survival.
There is no justice you can make the case for if there is no god Goldilox. Just what you think is better. But that is just opinion, and there is no higher law you can refer to.
Your desire to do unto others nicely, with no god in the picture, is actually, a weak useless, frankly pathetic attempt to cower in a dog eat dog world hopeing others wont make your life harder and the stronger in your midst (the tyrants) will let you eat the scraps.
I mean, without god, this is what you end up with.
If there is no god, who is there to take the measure? And those that think that way, may seem invisible right now, but that is because we are all flush with fiat.
Take the fiat down, which might happen, and the last person you will want as a neighbor is a relativist.
Which the nwo will discover to thier regret, as they see that thier -new global citizen- is a beast without boundries when times get hard.
And hard times WILL be coming.
It may seem smart and free to discard the lord because -religion- seems so tacky to you, but, time will show another view that makes a case in a way you may embrace. May you live long enough for that to happen!

Boilermaker, It does appear that "they are taking religion out of the schools" because as a smokescreen, groups fight over =under god= or many small distracting issues that make the average joe think.....Gee, they are screaming bloody murder about any religion in schools so they must really be watching this carefully. But, the truth is something quite different. In 1963, the supreme court said "you can teach -about- religion, but not teach religion"
And in that door, the educational arm of the relativists, are teaching religion in ways that you would not like at all. Religion is in the schools in a huge way. America is going/gone the way of england, australia, and many other countries. They teach relativist religion.
Well, July 4 is about over, thanks for the discussion about Freedom as it stands today.

mikal (7/4/05; 21:14:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 133782)
Link
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?guid=%7B2FF1280C%2D0842%2D470F%2D90D1%2D0D3CF4CB09F0%7D&siteid=mktw
Here is a better, more direct link to story on $.

Great Albino Bat (7/4/05; 21:04:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 133781)
$100 dollar/barrel oil predicted for year end 2005....

This does NOT quite click, with me.

Sounds like someone has an interest in scaring the beejeezus out of everyone. These shrieks of fear usually turn out to have a purpose quite different from what we imagine. I'd take such warnings with a grain of salt...

What happens sometimes, is after these "warnings" and everyone has taken the bait - the bottom falls out of the market. "Remember Y2K!"

The GAB

mikal (7/4/05; 20:57:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 133780)
World money change of season
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?guid=%7B8AE7C68C%2DD9C2%2D4231%2DA9A6%2D14313D5CA655%7D&siteid=mktw&cbsReferrer=www.1stheadlines.com
Dollar's surprising rally may not be sustained - Newswatch - July 4, 2005

Chris Powell (7/4/05; 19:10:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 133779)
Trial of Blanchard suit vs. Barrick postponed ...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/3196
... amid 'serious' settlement talks.

Latest GATA dispatch.



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Goldilox (7/4/05; 18:45:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 133778)
Thanks BM
@ Boilermaker,

. . .for bringing another view to the table. I can see all your points except the TV media. The only "fair and balanced" media I find today is C-Span. FOX regularly set up its commentators to crucify any liberal guests as traitorous, hardly "fair and balanced" when some of those crucified are not media professionals but families of victims of 911 whose only "treason" is asking for better investigative transparency.

Not being a member of any established religion, I am encouraged by your and $Bill's recognition of the political charlatans who hide behind the Bible to promote a very violent covert political agenda. Watching some of those creeps use pure entertainment skills to fleece half-senile grandmas of their milk money by tugging at heart-strings on TV makes me sick.

I guess it fits with the statement I heard from a more "liberal" religious leader the other day that "Christians who do not agree with those [Elmer Gantrys]" need to have their voices heard as well.

I have never been afraid of the display of historical items like 10 Commandment placards, Crucifixes, Madonnas, etc., nor have I been particularly concerned about allowing individual prayer in schools, as long as it is not "mandatory" or "pressured" upon any who prefer to abstain.

For my money, atheists and agnostics should have no more right to push their agenda than any one else. "Live and let live -to thine OWN self be true".

Peace and happy Independence Day to you and yours!

Goldilox (7/4/05; 18:16:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 133777)
Clarification
$ Bill,

I suggest your protagonist's "selfish" logic is completely faulty, as violence returned for violence only escalates unto infinity.

An "eye for an eye" eventually blinds everyone, as each new blinder must eventually become a "blindee", as well.

Though they certainly don't work to perfection, most modern criminal law is formulated in an attempt to halt the chain of violence rather than perpetuate it.

Case in point, do the "sex offenders" in the intelligence agencies' torture schools and their reservist "recruits" bring their new found skills home with them by default? We are told that those offenses are so "addictive" that FBI and DOJ agents involved in porn entrapment schemes must undergo regular psychological testing to ensure that they don't fall victim to the "disease" themselves. Are we protecting our society from the poorly trained "reservists" who have been ordered to commit sexual crimes against persons in the name of "intelligence gathering"? Or are we releasing them without treatment to spread their new "addictions" in our communities once they arrive home?

My original moral statement suggests that the perpetrator is victimized by the immoral act in addition to the "victim", and most studies support this hypothesis. This is not necessarily edict from "above" but simple "cause and effect". Perhaps this is why Jesus was quoted as telling his disciples to "put away the sword" - an effort to break the chain of violence for themselves.

Just some meanderings . . .

We're well past Noon so I suggest we resume our discussion next weekend to accomodate our generous hosts,

-G

Boilermaker (7/4/05; 17:52:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 133776)
$ Bill and Goldilox
Thanks for an inspiring dialog this weekend, you are both articulate and deeply thoughtful.
In the case of the media (tv and major newspapers) I see a distinct liberal bias in relation to my own. On the radio I generally hear the opposite. The first stab at conservative tv is FoxTV that has at least expressed its intentions to be "fair and balanced". Other major networks and news organizations have been closely examined and found to have a liberal bias at least in the opinion of conservatives.

In the case of Christianity in the US I too am disturbed by religious charlatans but I do not perceive them as threats to our freedom. They are the product of a media that thrives on the fringes of human behavior, like Jerry Springer. My church is a small midwest Church of Christ (now turned non-denominational) built in 1900 in a tiny village where most of the members could walk in a few minutes. An addition to the church in 1967 added indoor toilet facilities and some Bible School rooms. Many of our members are older like me. They have the historical perspective of having grown up in a time when religion was not controversial or excluded from private or public life. These folks didn't always agree about religious matters but they didn't ask government to exclude religion from public life. The way I see it is that many Christians are becoming concerned about the gradual removal of anything connected to religion and being excluded from public view. There is a deep concern in my church that atheists and agnostics are winning the day. I am not surprised that "right wing Christians" are becoming more political. They are trying to hold the line against a perceived anti-religious platform, not trying to increase their political power. Today's Christian, even most of us old ones are mellowed and more accomodating. Cultural and religious diversity has come to our small community. Just a few miles away is a Sikh temple that is a welcome part of our township community. Most Christians have come to terms with diversity and only want to coexist peacefully with other religions.

$ Bill had it right when he lamented the erosion of parental preeminance in the rearing of children. The family of today is most often one parent (working) or two parents (both working) trying to make ends meet. Children are more and more influenced by daycare and public school. Public School is where religion has been excluded. Daycare is mostly antiseptic. Why have we come to this? Perhaps it is nothing more than economic excess. We have become more and more programmed to assess our place in society by our financial and social status. This is often in conflict with what's good for the kids.

Supper's on, got to go.


Goldilox (7/4/05; 17:47:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 133775)
your example
Understood, but note I did not say "do unto others as they do unto you", I said "do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

Big difference.

Dollar Bill (7/4/05; 17:26:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 133774)
.,.
Goldilox, This is not AT you. A guy is walking down the street, doing to others what he would like them to do to him. He meets a guy who thinks quite differently. And HE, does something particularly nasty mean and perhaps life wrecking. Now, what comes from inside is a feeling of doing something rather vengeful and from revenge.
And my son, no longer having the kind of stuff I would have him grounded in, but in the -no authority figure- moral world of the nwo, or the relativists, goes with the base and devilish feelings that emerge from .......well........SOMEWHERE inside of him. Taking his clue from this real feeling he feels, and knowing that society moral laws are just agreements on opinions, and that there is no authority figure in life beyond the next guy, there is nothing in the way of him killing his attacker.
If he needs any logic to lean on, he can say to himself, well, if I did what he did to me to another, I would expect him to kill me, so, we are back to eye for eye, or worse.
Wonderful!
Before Jesus,(yeshua), that is how it was.

Goldilox (7/4/05; 16:56:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 133773)
Relativistic views
@ $ Bill,

Interesting response, but I don't sign up for any "relativistic" morals. The bottom line for me is "do unto others as you would have them do unto you", not because I can attribute it to a specific command source, but because in the end, I can only control my own behavior, and I choose to be productive rather than destructive.

Whether or not the Media is "relativistic" is an interesting thesis, as I find them demonizing my views as much as yours. Especially the "mainstream media".

My conclusion is that they are more corrupt than just "relativistic", but that again, is just my conclusion.

Thanks for the enlightening Independence day discourse!

-G

mikal (7/4/05; 16:32:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 133772)
Burning up the autobahn...botanically
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1631426,00.html
Germany Gears Up for Cars Made of Plants | Business & Economics | Deutsche Welle | Christof Polzer and Rafeal Heiling

CoBra(too) (7/4/05; 16:01:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 133771)
Borrowed Growth - vs - Reality
... The final question is when, not if reality will finally set in. An outcome, maybe not acceptable to the PTB, though an outcome which will overwhelm even the staunchest believers of goldilocks perpetuating monetary fraud:

Bill Buckler of the Privateer has expressed it clearly once again:

An Eloquent Summation Of The Situation:

Let us repeat what this British analyst - Mr Julian Callow (sic), an economist at Barclays Capital - had to
say about the fact that private Germans actually paid off an (admittedly small) portion of their debt last
year: "There is nowhere else where a country comes even close to such weak growth rates."
German net real wealth is increasing. German savings as a proportion of disposable (after tax) income is
stable at a high multiple of the rate of most other "developed nations". Yet Germany is suffering from
"weak growth rates". Yes, it certainly is. But what is growing much more "weakly" in Germany than it
is in the US - and most other "developed" nations - is DEBT. What is growing much more strongly is net
wealth and the seed corn for future wealth production - SAVINGS!
As The Privateer has pointed out many times, the REAL modern driver of economic "growth" is nothing
more or less than increased indebtedness. Mr Callow has proved our point with eloquent simplicity. A
nation's "growth" is measured by its capacity to create credit. Success in this endeavour is translated into
the desirability of such a nation's currency. And the YIELD offered by debt instruments denominated in
that currency is now the number one investment criteria for (most of) the global financial world.
Germany, in stark contrast to almost all the rest of the developed world (including Japan, given the
extreme profligacy of its government), has been EASING its debt servicing burdens for most of the past
decade. The rest of the world has been INCREASING theirs at a pace never before approached, with
only the higher yields on offer staving off a debt implosion. The end outcome, especially in the US which
is raising "yields" the most, is certain. At some point, the higher rates necessary for these yields will
overwhelm the consumers’ ability to spend because it will overwhelm their ability to service existing
debt. When that happens, look out for some REALLY weak growth rates.


... Sorry, did not mean to spoil your Independence Day barbecue - though it's time to focus on the splinter in your eye and not only on the sand grain in EU's eye.

... Oh, and the reality is noone ever borrowed their way to lasting prosperity - except fraud on the short term ...
X-cuse right topic on wrong day ... and let the fireworks begin! cb2





mikal (7/4/05; 15:54:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 133770)
Wounded bodies, wounded minds
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0701/p03s01-usmi.html
Costs of Care for Veterans: High and Rising - Brad Knickerbocker - July 4, 2005

Topaz (7/4/05; 15:50:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 133769)
Smeagols sore thumb!
http://www.crbtrader.com/data/default.asp?page=optqte&sym=GCQ5&mode=d
The $445 option "call" came in for some more attention on Friday with OI now up to 28oddK.
This IS a curiousity!
For starters, "someone" has to write the things ...presumably a Futures "long" picking up a bit of cabbage? ...market-maker "churning" to allay a price spike?
Note too the "puts" OI at $360 and $390.

Townie, Gandy, anyone! ...THOUGHTS?

USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc. (7/4/05; 15:27:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 133768)
A world of gold at your fingertips...
http://www.usagold.com/buy-gold-coins.html





mikal (7/4/05; 15:04:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 133767)
Patriotic pivot points
http://www.etherzone.com/2005/sees070105.shtml
INDEPENDENCE DAY... A MEMORIAL SERVICE? OR STATEMENT OF INTENT? - Dorothy Anne Seese

Topaz (7/4/05; 14:21:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 133766)
@Bill.
There are but a few of us who percieve the "devil in the detail" of Democracy. There are less still who have the courage of their convictions to take the fight to them. I take my hat of to you Sir.

It IS related to Gold too in that the decline in our Moral standards parallel that of the Monetary standard.

Looking forward to your further w-end input Bill ...with relish.

Liberty Head (7/4/05; 14:12:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 133765)
Have a 4th of July

Today, I mourn the loss of the hard won freedoms articulated in our increasingly defunct Constitution.
Those who wave the flag while they alter or ignore the Constitution have proliferated like maggots on an ever-growing pile of garbage.
Oh well! Decomposition is a necessary part of the life cycle.
Gold is exempt from decomposition and I find comfort in that.
It's maggot proof.

Best Wishes


Dollar Bill (7/4/05; 12:05:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 133764)
.,.
Goldilox, consider the driving impulse of the actively involved religious guys. To some extent, idiocy, as any guy at the top of religious org has plenty of time to imagine he is supposed to rule the world to some extent, for god of course.
But, the real driver of even guys like me, is the changes being wrought by the faction I mentioned last week.
They are real, in force, in academia, media, and govt.
Also in religious orgs. And of course in the NEA, and in the head of all those imprinted with it from academia.
When there is no god, or no god with preferences, in your view, (again, not YOUR view, just a manner of speaking), your foundational cornerstone of view of life now is made up, to an extent that does really have an effect on your views, is a view of life that has no solid grounding for a moral perspective. It is flexible but without and legally based reasonings that are fixed. One may say, oh yeah, murder is wrong, and morally wrong, but, if there is just us here in life, then the murder is wrong idea is just an opinion. Might be popular, but it has no real basis because there is no basis in reality for any firm conviction.
Just your preference.
Did I say that too quick? or short?
If there is no authority beyond us human folk, any views are all without a basis but our opinion.
That being the case, the door is opened for what this faction insists is grounds for no limits in many areas.
Concerns about innocence of children just dont take precedence over individual freedom to explore excess.
And that is where the USA supreme court is today.
Check thier obscenity rulings.
Goldilox, I may misunderstand, but I believe you are in thier camp. If it is just an individually defined higher power, well, ok fine, but if groups agree to definitions defined by Yeshua, who does not claim to be a prophet, like moses or mohammed, and buddha, who didnt complete his theology enough to figure out who the heck he was to speak about the unconcious oneness as he did.
But more than the that, the real crux, is that the supreme court, like the faction, does not see proof that there is a god, so they provide no constitutional, or legal support or grounds, for those who think morality has a solid base.
A god with preferences base.
You like your independence on the god issue, but it seems wedded to a link to relativeism.
So really, the decision is this, one side or the other, do you think we have a god here with preferences? Or is it all relative.
The faction, is the faction of relativeists, wether they know it or not. The NWO? relativists by action. The education system in the nwo that teaches religion, morality, and I forget what else.....relativeism.
The -god is just all love- religions that are taking over US christianity and probably other countries....relativist.

The media? relativist. Notice how they demonize guys like me. extreme right wing conservative.
If I squawk? another extreme religious nut.
Media controlled by non relativists? Way smaller than you think. Who is reality based?
I think stupidity provides that answer. If there was no god, none of us, or at least one of us, would not be stupid.
There would be the smart group that could, with validity, tell us "hey you stupids! Stop being stupid! We did! Get it together! You are ruining the world!"

Now wouldnt that be special. Luckily for us, there is a god, and we wont be faced with that crowd, which already exists, having any validity. No one can escape the boundries of life. THAT is the proof that there is a god.
Also, it is the proof that there is a devil.
Anyway, that is the core of the remaining fight for independence. For freedom. On this fourth of July, there is a struggle for freedom that is different than previous. Or, actually the same, but a new form.
And free men are losing this fight. The relativists are winning. The fight is unpublicized, the way to fight is unseen. If you see "extreme right with religious nuts" making a fuss, now you know thier bind.
Many of them can not even articulate the dilemma.
Cannot climb on top of what is climbing on top of thier world, cannot see the nature, form, and strategy of the beast. Cannot see the way to fight it, and are in need of a hand. I plan to help them. And myself, and my kids.

The moon is about to be at its lowest point Topaz, so, I suppose, in the fun of our lunar discussion, I will fade back to my project. Thanks for the vent opportunity.


Goldilox (7/4/05; 10:30:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 133763)
State (and other organized) religions
@ $ Bill,

You last post only helps convince me that individual spirituality upholds character more so than "organized religion". (I am not suggesting that you would disagree with this statement, but you are certainly free to).

With "individual spirituality", the special interest group is essentially "one", but organized religions often turn into PACs that end up serving not so much the individual, but the "leader of the PAC".

I will use the AA organization (and I use the term loosely) just for an example. Here is a collection of "groups" that recognizes "Higher Power" as the driving force, albiet "unnamed" to avoid diety nepotism. But it also strictly requires that positions on "all outside issues" (including moral judgements) be the total responsibility of the individual. Group endorsement of any kind is not allowed, even for such "relevant" entities as other "recovery" programs. Nor are they allowed to take donations from other than local members - strictly to preserve autonomy and eliminate any potential for selling "indulgences".

On issues of governance, no elected office is held longer than two years, and "trusted servants" are held accountable directly to their local group. No "professional servants" are hired - in fact the only "employees" are non-voting secretary-office administrators, janitors, and publishers, all of whom report to volunteer elected administrators. Each "volunteer servant" is responsible for his own financial support OUTSIDE of group activities.

Some have suggested that 12-step groups represent a "new" religion or even "cult", but as group endorsement of any "outside entity" (including other 12-step groups) is disallowed, focus on the group's "primary purpose" is better manitained - at least so far!

Perhaps I am being too idealistic, but this model has worked well for a number of generations, and spawned hundreds of other totally autonomous 12-step groups.

OK, I'm off to a Independence Day pickynick - food, fellowship, and frivolity is the order of the day. Have a "golden" 4th yourself.

Goldilox (7/4/05; 09:25:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 133762)
Anti-gold Tantrum
@ GAB,

The $DX run has a temporary benefit for gold buyers. While it is running up, hte sale remains in effect for US$ holders.

Once the DX resumes its waterfalls, the "red, white, and blue light special" will be GONE, and it's OFF TO THE RACES!

Technicians have suggested very low 90's portend a nice top for the sawbuck, so we should see if they are correct quite soon.

Dollar Bill (7/4/05; 09:24:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 133761)
.,
Greetings Sir Topaz, I am 52, so I also qualify as the late middle age. May your granddaughter find a nice OZ boy, as here in the states, =comprehensive= sex and character education pushes a -its all ok- idea. The local newspaper ran an article that started on the front page, cheerfully declareing that sex boundries are being -outgrown- by kids.
And what precipitated this? They actually admitted, and used kids inteviews to confirm, that sex ed teachers tell young ones about the sex stuff available on the internet.
I have the article! So, the boys being interviewed, ran home and looked the stuff up and started their involvement with internet porn. The paper, by the way, this is the oldest still printing newspaper in the usa. And, in the capitol of the richest state in the US. The paper went on to -celebrate- this new fast track to deep sex involvement as some form of advanced human evolution. As if people of the past were stuck, and humankind were just waiting for this time to break free of any limits.
Character ed combines this, with what the future holds for Religious ed. which is, morality education. What happens there, is that any morality from religion becomes the states. I will say that another way.
Imagine the robbery.
Yup, robbery. It is in my head, and I dont know how much will come out in just a few sentences. As the govt teaches religion morality and sex ed and character ed more and more, it starves the useful and rich areas of family and church. Disparage what we will about faulty humans involved in anything, includeing church, still, churches can host vibrant and good communities of folks that can be quite rich and have very good results.
Sure, there are always nuts everywhere.
But, as the family less and less is the area to discuss reality, because the govt now does it, poorly as you might imagine, and on a vast scale, the richness, variety, and ---diversity--- of the community is lessened until the sameness of the -flock-, Is nationwide. In nwoland, worldwide.
Maybe this is how the Klingons did it, or the Jedi, or the Romolans, but I say, to give up parental rights and freedom of religion for the sake of the state is too high a price to pay.
We may think some religions stink, but thier decline is made more sure by parents having control.
To think each generation of kids just accept the handed down stuff of the parents leaves out the natural tendency of kids to do something different.
In claimiing to embrace the variety, the state crushes it and makes sameness, and frankly, stupid sameness.
It may seem like I am seeing this and makeing it larger than it has grown at this point, but that is only revealing of how distant you (not meaning -you- or anyone in particular, Topaz), but how much off the radar screen this is. Just as gold manipulation is hidden, and other things as you have humorously mentioned, this is also.
The nwo comes with its possible pluses, but also its tyranny, which always follows power and control.
Yes, happy day of independence, but oh my............what a night is dawning.

Great Albino Bat (7/4/05; 09:15:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 133760)
The Anti-Gold CABAL has its tantrum....

So, COMEX gold was thoroughly whacked for some $8 US on Friday. A lovely swan dive!

This is obviously an engineered move, that has absolutely NOTHING to do with "market" activity.

What we are actually seeing, is the very beginning of a BANK RUN ON GOLD. The crowd outside the Banks is getting restive, rumors are moving about, the nervousness of the depositors is perceptible; one bit of bad news, and THE RUN IS ON, FULL THROTTLE!

So, the CABAL selects a Friday before a long weekend, to drive gold down with an extra hard spanking. Thus, the $427 figure will remain on the screens until Tuesday. More effect, for less gold expenditure!

The tiny market of gold, is so vitally important. Otherwise, why this obstinate endeavor to keep the dollar "price" of gold down? This effort is bound to fail, and yet, the effort goes on, with a cost to the general population which is paying the bills for this doomed effort.

Keep in mind: THE BANK RUN ON GOLD IS ON. The Banks are using the hand-held fire extinguishers to put down the flames, but the fire has been building for decades and the building is totally rotten, there will be no stopping this fire! Grab some gold before the run is on full-scale!

(Perhaps I shall repost this on Tuesday)

The GAB

canamami (7/4/05; 09:11:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 133759)
Who Owns the Dollar?
http://www.amconmag.com/2005_07_04/article1.html
Who Owns the Dollar?


Our currency and our economy are held hostage by Asia.


by Paul Craig Roberts


China is the leading scapegoat for America's economic ills. On May 20, New York Times columnist Paul Krugman blamed China for the U.S. housing bubble. If only China were not lending us so much money, mortgage rates would be higher, forestalling a housing bubble. Krugman says China is a poor country and should be investing its capital at home, not lending it to the U.S.

Krugman could just as well have said, "If only U.S. manufacturers produced in America instead of outsourcing to China, the Chinese would not have any money to lend us. Thus, no housing bubble."

Krugman is correct that if foreign lending to the U.S. slows, interest rates will rise, putting a speculative housing market in trouble. But the interest of the U.S.-China relationship goes far beyond the effect on the U.S. housing market. Economists set in traditional ways of thinking miss the really important aspects of the relationship.............


mikal (7/4/05; 08:05:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 133758)
Web wars
http://news.com.com/The+coming+Web+security+woes/2010-1071_3-5772012.html?part=rss&tag=5772012&subj=news
The coming Web security woes | Declan McCullough - July 4, 2005

slingshot (7/4/05; 06:29:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 133757)
Happy Independence Day
http://www.njagyouth.org/liberty.htm
Wishing all a Happy 4th of July. Especially the Men and Women of the Military around the world.
Slingshot-----------<>

Topaz (7/4/05; 03:09:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 133756)
Politics and Religion. @ Bill.
I'll toss this up and see if it flies, but will understand if the ptb see fit to pull it...
...thankfully Bill, MY kids are long done with Schooling and if, as you believe, Gov't is overstepping the mark in Religious "education" nowadays, then I'm doubly so.
I would like to say though, that IF the Child is being brought up in a loving caring environment, NO AMOUNT of contra-input from Teachers, peers or the like will sway them (permanently) from the path as experienced through the examples set by their Family.
It's a sad reflection on our society that RE has to be even considered in Schools Bill, perhaps OTHER families don't or aren't so committed to their kids spritual well-being as you and your wife obviously are ...and full credit to you for it!

ANY aspiring megalomaniac, seeking to transition from Soup Kitchen to Gravy Train knows full well the first step is to align (him)self with a mainstream Religion...
...then, as time passes, as he "matures" toward States-man, his religious convictions can be allowed to wane ie: he becomes "far to occupied" with affairs of State, and the electorate accepts this.

Of course many try and few succeed (see, there is a God) and we can measure this failure by the number of quazi-megs who have to continually revert to their "religious" affiliations to keep getting elected.
Eventually the facade disappears, they fade from the scene, or go out in a blaze of Glory.
Such is life in our Democracy and, as Churchill put it: Democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those others that have been tried.

So, we'd have to concede, "P" and "R" are part and parcel of life in Western Society ...sad but true IMHO.

Good luck with thew "Case" and Happy 4th Bill ...and all Americans, particularly arbyh (Spirits up, Head down arby) You-all DO have a lot to be both proud of and thankful for.

High-Ho Silver!



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