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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 9/4/2002 All times are U.S. Mountain Time (Yesterday's Discussion.) Waverider (09/04/02; 23:46:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 84386) Hard rain in the desert http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/DI05Ak01.html Snip:"The Saudi royal family is weathering the biggest challenge to its rule since it founded the kingdom about 70 years ago. But the task is harder without a definite roadmap to guide it through the post-September 11 pressure aimed at diluting the influence of the puritan Wahhabism brand of Islam in daily life...All this indicates that the kingdom is being pulled in two directions. There is an uneasy calm in the relationship between hardliners, Defense Minister Sultan and Interior Minister Nayef, and the moderate de facto ruler, Crown Prince Abdullah, that could explode when the question arises of succession of the current ailing King Fahd."Waverider: Interesting article on Wahhabism,its history and current influence in Saudi politics. Sierra Madre (09/04/02; 23:22:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 84385) Comatose and Black Blade (re: Brazil's default) Comatose, you have posted some pearls of wisdom this evening. "Dusty people", indeed! Again, I do think we are living in "Babylon 2".Black Blade: There is life after default, for Brazil. It makes sense: a debtor defaults when he sees he has no further prospect of more credits. I used to sell some stuff wholesale and there was always the problem of collecting from a debtor business. The management would blackmail, and insist on more merchandise before they made any payment. No easy way out of that.So Brazil defaults, so what (for them)? The hens will go on laying eggs.SaludosSierra Sierra Madre (09/04/02; 23:04:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 84384) Sector: That JPM-C is "not gambling" but "rigging" the market. Doubtless, they are doing what you say. JPM-C is, as perhpas you might say, "betting on a sure thing". (You did not say that, but, it is implied in your interesting post.)Is the whole JPM-C rigging of the price of gold so that its price will not rise, something that will endure and then come to a successful end - by "success" I mean that JPM-C will come out unscathed, having fulfilled its objectives? In twenty years' time, will the executives of JPM-C be able to look back in satisfaction and admiration at the whole operation, begun say, in 1995?No? Then they were gambling and lost.All human action involves some degree of risk. Anything we attempt can fail. But as Antal Fekete points out, there is a big difference between natural, inherent risks - such as weather, for farmers - and man-made risks. Suppressing the price of gold incurs in man-made risks and must be classed as a form of gambling. In fact, it is bound to fail.The bigwigs are smart. They know they are going to fail. Yet from a motive of momentary gain, they are selling their Bank and all of us, down the river. There may be also, a motive based on some other grounds, such as a vision of ulterior power on a scale never before known to man.If JPM-C is not gambling, then they must know they are going to come out ahead. I shudder to think of that possibility. Therefore, I say, they are gambling, and they are going to lose mightily...........Further thoughts on derivatives, for your scrutiny:There are some $100 Trillion out there, if I am not mistaken?Now, as long as nothing much happens, no one is out any important money. The losers take their lumps, and that's that. A billion here, a billion there - nothing to speak of.However, when something big comes along, losses become gigantic - never mind whether the $100 Trillion is "nominal", still, the losses are going to be astronomical, for SOMEONE.If JPM-C is protected in all its risks, as those wise guys are thinking they are, then let's suppose that they are saved all those gigantic losses, and somebody else absorbs them. However, those gigantic losses are going to take down a great many mighty players, and that will take down the banks that thought they were "protected" by their hedges.It's a kind of Russian Roulette: no one gets hurt until there is a bullet in the firing chamber of the 357 Magnum revolver. Then, the system goes down, and JPM-C along with it. All this, by someone who knows zilch about the technique of derivatives.Sierra Cometose (09/04/02; 22:37:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 84383) (No Subject) There's a gold moon rising MoonHowler (09/04/02; 21:59:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 84382) $$$$ 321.9 $$$$ Gold is important to me because it is a continuous source of wealth and a (theoretically) uncontrollable, universal currency, ruled by no single nation. ji (09/04/02; 21:38:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 84381) $$$$343.0$$$$ Gold is important to me because gold is and always will be, well, Gold. sector (09/04/02; 21:38:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 84380) @SierraMadre About the "Derivatives Gambling" Actually It's Not Gambling... ...the derivatives held by JPM have a purpose. That purpose is to suppress the price of the underlying commodity.At $45 Billion in gold derivatives JPM IS the COMEX, therefore any action exhibited by the COMEX can only be at the wish of JPM. They wish gold to be $315 tonight...so it is. But they have a physical supply problem and from "Deep Throat" also tonight JPM received a gold swap from the Treasury to fund their gold derivatives book. This suggests that they cannot repay the swapped gold because it has already been sold into the market. The Treasury has the metal but JPM has the liability.Bill Murphy has been suggesting that the Iraqi war offers an opportunity for Treasury to "Forgive JPM's gold debt to the Treasury"...when gold can no longer be held down. One can hear the Fed..."No taxpayer money was used". The gold derivatives will just be erased. JPM never goes to buy gold on the open market.So there are new dimensions to the manipulation game...new "Dots" for the map.JPM is an enterprise based entirely upon the ideology of the rig. For example, in 1996 they launched their soon to be $20 Trillion interest rate derivatives book only weeks AFTER breaking the gold price in June 1996. Without gold to threaten the dollar, they had the perfect rig set for low interest rates. It was a sure thing.BTW the Fed Chairman holds two board seats on the Bank of International Settlements, a private corporation. Since he makes interest rate policy effecting the BIS member banks, this amounts to a blatant conflict of interest. The Master of the Universe fails to see this.There are hundreds of billions in other commodity derivatives listed but are not identified in the OCC documentation. Those JPM derivatives do not exist to raise the price of the underlying commodities.It isn't a gamble it's a rig. a nation of one (09/04/02; 21:32:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 84379) derivatives are not safe? Do you really think the people at Morgan Chase would gamble? Why, those people don't even need to eat lunch. They are not humans like you and me. The Morgan Chase building doesn't have restrooms, because they're not needed. The staff extrude their waste once a week in little bags and throw them into the air and they disappear like..., well, like derivatives. Everybody knows that derivatives are as safe as, ... as safe as..., well, they are as safe as the British Empire, that's what. Cometose (09/04/02; 21:15:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 84378) SILVERHOARD /POST 84351 / Illusionary monetary system I quite agree....(it's a little bit funny how we go about this business of figuring all things out and the linear process of making ends meet .... like deer /elk that never look up) weshould look up more .... Those who have come to this forum were seeking ..... to know ....something ....about .... something....we are all very fortunate....I believe that the Universe that we live in is an Illusion too, in which we get to dwell and discover...and on some special days it is the medium which delivers to us bright moments coming through here......cargoes of treasureThere are references in writings that have been handed down to us over many years.... writings that speak of The Rock ...and also referring to our state.... psalm 103: 14 For he knoweth our frame ; he remembereth that we are dust ....In the context , this isn't a compliment to man's strength or character.... There are also some references to people having salt in there ( in the writings).....and in here inside the universe..where we sojourn.I guess there's kind of an inherent warning in all of this about which dusty people wind up running stuff like the financial system .....because some of those dusty people out there are just plain flaky ( accidentally introducing us to their failing experimental journey /fantasy which is now proving to have a sandy bottom /foundation) Don't rely on these people for answers and don't invest your trust in those who are now having a maalox moment with that immodium chaser behind the well dressed facade that has an exterior tint of calmness......( perhaps that is the calm before the storm).....There is a storm on the horizon and the wind is going to blow .......and after the storm there will be many ,,,, with questions .......and the dusty people that caused the problems will have been transported to a distant shore where they may be unavailable for comment ..... and the many answers that people will be seeking will be blowing in the wind.......Reminds me of a rather new colloquilism and rationalization for WHY QUESTIONS? TO paraphrase and this may be the best answer initially that the pundits will publish .......POOPICAH HAPPENS.....One of my kids used to blame many things that happened on the fact that it was an accident....."Well I didn't mean to have that happen" My next question is always "Well, did you willfully determine that accident not to happen?Life wasn't exciting enough and the bankers didn't have enough games to play when we had a gold standard ....watching the economy then was like watching the paint dry .....the masses have had to work more at the expense of the quality of life ...... the end result greedy men at the top of the financial structures( corporations and banks) ... eating the first fruit ( I think we are going to find out that they may have and major portion ) that this overjuiced economy produced and they consumed all the seed capital for future expansion....hmmm.... SO I wanna know when Robinhood is going to show up .......The internet may be just the medium through which the masses get the picture and come to feast on the security owning real money (GOLD) will give... Sierra Madre (09/04/02; 21:06:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 84377) R Powell: On JP Morgan-Chase Derivatives on their books... Well, Rich, the whole theme of "notional value of derivatives" and "risk" is exceedingly abstruse. What would Will Roger's have said about this? You know darn well he would get to the heart of the matter.I am no Will Roger's but, JP Morgan-Chase is up to their kiester in all sorts of contortions no one can really understand. And when that is going on, you have to know that a great deal is very rotten. All this derivative crap is not about banking in the sober sense of the word. It's about gambling. GAMBLING! (Excuse the flaming)The idea is that no operation is beyond the pale. Anything, bar nothing, anything can be done and financed. Just "structure" it right, and the deal gets done. How? We use derivatives to spin off what we don't like, to others, who will always - to make a buck - accept the risk in return for - a buck. So no deal that can be conceived by someone under the influence of opium or cocaine, can be rejected. It's all doable. Just spin off what you don't like.The problema is: WTSHTF, those who accepted the risks are going to be "not at home". Poof! They default. And when things just begin to get sticky, all of a sudden, no more accepters of risk. The machinery binds up.These people at JP Morgan-Chase: they know what they are doing. They are preparing for the burial of the American Republic. Every single one of the higher ups, knows that this whole scheme is damned to Hell, that there is no way that their august bank is going to survive. They don't care and never have cared. They may be b......s, but they are not dumb b......s! There you have that book that explains it all in detail: "FIASCO". It talks about "ripping the client's face off".Nemesis ALWAYS follows hubris. JPMC will be no exception. Sit back, relax and enjoy the fall of Babylon, 21st Century.Now, pardon me while I go and enjoy my cigar for this evening.Sierra Black Blade (09/04/02; 21:02:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 84376) Retailers under pressure http://money.cnn.com/2002/09/04/news/companies/retail_roundup/index.htm Snippit:Retailers have seen deteriorating sales during the last few months as the combined effects of uncertain economic news, a seasonal shift to fall merchandise, and heat waves tamed consumers, whose spending has been shoring up the economy. Some retailers are nervous heading into the crucial fall season as early reads on back-to-school sales are disappointing, prompting many chains to offer early promotions on clothing and other related back-to-school merchandise. "Back-to-school sales have not been meeting expectations, especially in the apparel and accessories merchandise classifications," the report said. "Most stores missed or appeared at the lower end of their targets." Black Blade: The second most important retail season a disappointment. That does not look good as it usually sets the tone for holiday sales. In a word – "Grim". Black Blade (09/04/02; 21:01:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 84375) Crude Oil Rises After Bush Meets With U.S. Lawmakers on Iraq http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?ptitle=Top%20Financial%20News&s1=blk&tp=ad_topright_topfin&T=markets_bfgcgi_content99.ht&s2=ad_right1_topfin&bt=ad_position1_topfin&middle=ad_frame2_topfin&s=APXYhXRSQQ3J1ZGUg Snippit:New York, Sept. 4 (Bloomberg) -- Crude oil jumped after U.S. President George W. Bush told lawmakers that no action ``is not an option'' for dealing with the threat posed by Iraq. Black Blade: It's a done deal. I see that the Europeans are unhappy with the US plans for war. Funny thing is they always seem to invite us to theirs. Black Blade (09/04/02; 20:59:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 84374) A looming depression? http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20020904-043745-2655r Snippit:FRANKFURT, Germany, Sept. 4 (UPI) -- One of Germany's top economists is warning the country's leading bankers that Europe, and the rest of the world, are in dire danger of following Japan into a deflationary depression -- far more serious and prolonged than a conventional recession. "The people running the world's central banks and those responsible for economic policy should take the signs much more seriously," argues Norbert Walter, chief economist for Deutsche Bank, Germany's largest, in a paper made available exclusively to United Press International. Walter, sunk in gloom after returning from a research trip to Asia, is circulating the paper in a bid to influence the world's financial leaders at the autumn meeting of the International Monetary Fund and World Bank in Washington at the end of the month. The stars are all aligned, fears the top economist of Germany's biggest bank, for a very dismal economic outlook.Black Blade: Stating the obvious. Black Blade (09/04/02; 20:58:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 84373) Brazil Bonds, Currency Fall on Signs Lula May Win in 1st Round http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?touch=1&btitle=Top%20News&T=sa_content.ht&s=APXUdoRVrQnJhemls Snippit:Rio de Janeiro, Sept. 3 (Bloomberg) -- Brazilian bonds posted their biggest slide in three weeks on concern the presidential candidate favored by most investors won't be able to close the gap on his leading rival. Jose Serra has pulled into a statistical tie with Popular Socialist Ciro Gomes for second place, while still trailing frontrunner Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva by 17 percentage points, according to a Vox Populi poll. The survey showed Lula's support rising, boosting concern the Workers' Party candidate may be elected outright in the Oct. 6 voting and eliminating the need for a second-round vote on Oct. 27. Brazil's currency has lost 19 percent of its value in three months on concern that if Lula or Gomes wins, the new president would increase spending to fund campaign pledges, sapping funds needed to avert the biggest debt default ever. Brazil's debt has tripled during President Fernando Henrique Cardoso's eight-year term to about 1.1 trillion reais ($354 billion). Black Blade: Lula has already stated that he would probably just default on foreign loans. South America is toast. The dominoes will continue to fall. SilverHoard (09/04/02; 20:30:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 84372) Siilver Coins When the talk turns to silver coins, I think about the bi-metalic system of coinage which served this country well for long periods of its history. Is all this talk about the collectability of Silver Eagles and commerative silver dollars the real purpose or the best use for this silver. Would someone add up the total mintage to date for Silver Eagles alone. Then estimate the quantity of old Morgan and Peace dollars in VG-VF condition. Then estimate the quantity of junk silver coins available. If a number is arrived at would it not represent a base to be paired up with the Gold Eagle coin program and be capable of supporting a bi-metalic monetary system. Yes, I know that there is not enough to replace current total monies outstanding. However, if a couple of zeros were removed from the currency, would we not be back to the same point before the current dollar value had been inflated away. I know there are a dozen other arguements against this idea. It is an idea that lurks in my mind for our future. I just yearn for a strong stable monetary system for ourselves and our children. A good nite to all the citizens of the realm Noble1 (09/04/02; 20:25:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 84371) $$$$ 308.6 $$$$ Gold is the wealth of kings and that's good enough for me. ANOTHER reason-Presently gold is cheap in USD. Slowman (09/04/02; 20:10:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 84370) Happy Birthday Gold Price Settlement Please post my guess at $$$$333.40 $$$$.Personally, I , hold 1/3 mining stocks, 1/3 physical gold, and 1/3 physical silver. The reason is I DO NOT trust our government and know that if you want to make money, FOLLOW THE MONEY ! It makes sense when people like Soros, Gates and Buffet buy silver. No place better to be in bad times than gold and silver in any form. Read Ezekial 7 vs. 19. The bible tells us it will be the last thing of value in end times. Who is of better authority than JEHOVAH ?Best of luck to all! Artie Farkle (09/04/02; 20:02:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 84369) $$$$317.2$$$$ Hello all Why gold is important to me: I see possession of gold as a chance to make it through a storm, perhaps even prosper when others are going under. Possessing gold is my vote against the current system. : ) R Powell (09/04/02; 19:23:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 84368) kasperjack Thanks for the good silver news. The Mint issued some 90% silver coins with the old Buffalo nickel design some time back and sold out immediately. Commemorative silver coins will be affordable to almost everyone and may give the silver situation some publicity. Hopefully, demand will be strong enough to call for extra mintings. Officially, the "Mint" will not purchase silver until 2003. Unofficially, it has been reported by Mr. Morgan that the supplier of the silver rounds used to stamp the coins has started to build inventory in anticipation of the government's order of 10 million ounces. How much silver is still readily available? Apparently not enough for the sterling silver jewelry business. Rich misetich (09/04/02; 19:20:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 84367) Analysis: Lower GDP Admission Complicates EMU Fiscal Debate Sep 4 / 10:12 EDT http://www.economeister.com/reg/popup/single_story.jsp?prod=114&ts=1031148720000&sn=1&banner=mainwire Snip:By Matthew Saltmarsh BRUSSELS (MktNews) - EU finance ministries are finally coming around to a view held in the private sector for some time -- that this year's eurozone growth rate will be around 1%, perhaps less. But that admission makes existing euro area deficit reduction goals even tougher and will further complicate the debate on whether to ease rules constraining spending. Well-placed officials have told Market News International that finance ministry forecasters in most EU members now agree with the International Monetary Fund that eurozone growth this year will be around 1% and perhaps less -- well below forecasts made in Spring, which were around 1.5%. ********MisetichFrom continent to continent global economic slowdown continues How can the current stock market values be justified?Got gold? Speedy (09/04/02; 19:15:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 84366) contest $$$333.70 gold has played a key roll in stablizing my portfolio to the good! Seems the only stable thing to date!!! HOOSIER GOLDBUG (09/04/02; 19:11:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 84365) $$$$$$$$$$ 330.00 $$$$$$$$$$$$ Hold Gold to HAVE some tangible assets for some of the fruits of my blood, sweat and tears (LABOR! Deny consumption today to pass on TRUE WEALTH to my sons. R Powell (09/04/02; 19:08:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 84364) JPMorgan-Chase response to GATA Not real easy to understand but I did take special note of this sentence, "While notional principal is the most commonly used volume measure in derivatives and foreign exchange markets, it is not a measure of credit risk." On this I'll have to agree. Mr. Borden also explains that the net exposure is what is reported to shareholders while all positions must be reported to exchange regulators. This also seems okay as long as the shareholders understand that their statement shows NET risk while the complete statement shows all the pieces which boil down to net exposure. Basically, there are huge and potentially almost unlimited risks involved with buying or selling futures (derivatives) and with selling options. There is no risk with buying options. There is a one time, up front cost necessary to buy an option but that is all that can be lost- total, no matter what. So, if an at-risk position is covered by an option that has only a one time, up front cost, then the positions combined can lose no more than the initial cost of the option (plus commission costs which are next to nothing for JPMC). So, in essense, this combined position requires the initial premium cost of the option (already paid at time of purchase) and margin but has no further downside risk. This all refers to the fiat game and in no way reflects on gold or silver sold which may or may not ever be repaid in metal form. M.K. once stated that he believes that only about 3000 tons has really left bank vaults. With gold I don't pretend to have a clue as to whether repayment in metal will ever be possible. With silver I don't believe leased silver can be repaid in metal form (mho). Back to derivatives, Borden's response seems reasonable to me. No judgement here on whatever those positions are!, just that what he explains makes sense. I still disagree with (or don't fully understand) Sinclair's idea that POG at a certain level (POG=354) will result in disaster. Counterparty risk always exists and physical paybacks aren't likely but notional derivatives risk can not be determined without considering all offsetting positions and, of course, the resulting naked exposure risk at that one particular moment in time. Thoughts? Rich kasperjack (09/04/02; 18:51:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 84363) More TB The coming year should also see the release of an unlimited mintage of a special one-ounce silver coin commemorating the 9/11 attacks,**proceeds according to Ted will go to Sept 11 victims families. Boy wouldn't it be the collectable if it had the Twin Towers impression on it. kasperjack (09/04/02; 18:36:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 84362) Taken From Ted Butlers Latest In August the Mint sold more Silver Eagles than any month this year and any August in the program's history. Sales of 1,745,000 misetich (09/04/02; 18:31:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 84361) Credit for Brazil trickles back, but still scant http://www.forbes.com/newswire/2002/09/04/rtr712898.html Snip:Even if the market's favorite candidate stages a comeback to win the Oct. 6 presidential election, a slowing global economy and the threat of a U.S. military attack on Iraq could mean Brazil's credit crunch lasts longer than expected, they said.........."In this context, people are being extra cautious, which suggests that there won't be a dramatic turnaround in the credit **********MisetichGlobal economic slowdown may force Brazil into defaultGot gold? Gandalf the White (09/04/02; 18:27:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 84360) WELCOME Sir Believer ! -- I got your Prediction ! <;-) Believer (09/04/02; 18:22:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 84358)My Contest Prediction Gandalf the White (09/04/02; 18:25:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 84359) "The Happy Birthday GOLD PRICE SETTLEMENT CONTEST" UPDATE #4 (as of 18:20 Denver time 9/4/02)====$$$$ 375.0 $$$$ Henri (09/04/02; 10:58:18MT - msg#: 84326)$$$$ 362.3 $$$$ NEMO me impune lacessit (09/04/02; 05:21:24MT - msg#: 84304)$$$$ 354.4 $$$$ perform (09/04/02; 07:34:49MT - msg#: 84313)$$$$ 353.4 $$$$ darkhorse (09/03/02; 20:56:04MT - msg#: 84280)$$$$ 345.0 $$$$ Socrates964 (09/04/02; 16:11:50MT - msg#: 84344)$$$$ 342.5 $$$$ gvc (09/03/02; 17:08:12MT - msg#: 84255)$$$$ 341.7 $$$$ old gold (09/04/02; 11:40:02MT - msg#: 84330)$$$$ 339.0 $$$$ rsjacksr (09/03/02; 22:36:21MT - msg#: 84289)$$$$ 331.3 $$$$ misetich (09/04/02; 05:28:30MT - msg#: 84307)$$$$ 331.2 $$$$ Pippin (09/04/02; 12:50:09MT - msg#: 84335)$$$$ 329.8 $$$$ goldenpeace (09/04/02; 11:36:15MT - msg#: 84329)$$$$ 329.3 $$$$ mikal (09/04/02; 17:08:29MT - msg#: 84349)$$$$ 329.2 $$$$ The Hoople (09/04/02; 12:04:30MT - msg#: 84332)$$$$ 328.5 $$$$ steady (09/03/02; 20:14:41MT - msg#: 84272)$$$$ 328.1 $$$$ ha_tey_o (09/04/02; 11:15:13MT - msg#: 84327)$$$$ 327.9 $$$$ Trapper (09/03/02; 20:12:26MT - msg#: 84271)$$$$ 327.3 $$$$ luckypierre (09/03/02; 15:20:51MT - msg#: 84244)$$$$ 326.5 $$$$ turkey hunter (09/03/02; 18:33:51MT - msg#: 84261)$$$$ 325.5 $$$$ Galerider (09/03/02; 20:53:27MT - msg#: 84279)$$$$ 325.2 $$$$ The CoinGuy (09/04/02; 13:00:07MT - msg#: 84338)$$$$ 324.5 $$$$ Rock (09/04/02; 12:19:18MT - msg#: 84334)$$$$ 324.1 $$$$ Gold Standard (09/04/02; 05:02:31MT - msg#: 84302)$$$$ 323.7 $$$$ Boxman (9/4/02; 04:27:17MT - msg#: 84301)$$$$ 323.2 $$$$ a nation of one (09/03/02; 13:55:53MT - msg#: 84229)$$$$ 322.2 $$$$ Tommy P (09/03/02; 14:33:23MT - msg#: 84233)$$$$ 321.4 $$$$ balzac (09/04/02; 17:22:15MT - msg#: 84353)$$$$ 321.1 $$$$ The Knife (09/04/02; 16:30:43MT - msg#: 84345)$$$$ 321.0 $$$$ Gandalf the White (09/03/02; 12:29:20MT - msg#: 84221)$$$$ 320.2 $$$$ 18K (09/03/02; 13:18:00MT - msg#: 84226)$$$$ 320.0 $$$$ Zhisheng (09/03/02; 15:06:26MT - msg#: 84240)$$$$ 319.8 $$$$ Bound Spirit (09/03/02; 17:20:54MT - msg#: 84257)$$$$ 319.7 $$$$ slingshot (09/03/02; 16:57:17MT - msg#: 84254) $$$$ 319.5 $$$$ davefinger (09/03/02; 14:52:14MT - msg#: 84235)$$$$ 319.4 $$$$ koala bear (9/4/02; 04:08:54MT - msg#: 84299)$$$$ 319.2 $$$$ Bulldog (09/03/02; 21:53:40MT - msg#: 84288)$$$$ 318.6 $$$$ Kodie (09/03/02; 12:41:26MT - msg#: 84222)$$$$ 316.0 $$$$ Tevye (09/04/02; 08:02:40MT - msg#: 84316)$$$$ 314.9 $$$$ MO VER MEG (09/04/02; 07:34:44MT - msg#: 84312)$$$$ 314.5 $$$$ Frosty (09/03/02; 18:59:09MT - msg#: 84265)$$$$ 313.3 $$$$ Woodie (09/03/02; 23:41:11MT - msg#: 84291)$$$$ 312.5 $$$$ SilverHoard (09/04/02; 17:01:10MT - msg#: 84347)$$$$ 311.4 $$$$ De Ronin (09/04/02; 12:16:42MT - msg#: 84333)===FYI ------HIGH, Low and Settlement Price of GC2Z on:9/3/02 $315.9 $314.1 $315.0s9/4/02 $317.1 $313.8 $316.5s Change + $1.5====THE RULES --1) THIS Contest consists of TWO Portions --- A Price Prognostication and a Discussion Statement !2) The Winner is the Price Guess closest to the Settlement price of the COMEX (most active) December 2002 Contract (GC2Z) on the date of Friday the 13th of September. (NOTE the LUCKY date !)3) Price "Guesses" shall be stated in Dollars and tenths !(Such as $543.2) 4) "Guesses" shall be SHOWN in the SUBJECT location AND enclosed in markers of "Dollar Signs"so as to be OFFICIAL ! Such as $$$$ 543.2 $$$$5) ONLY one "Guess" per Knight or Lady is allowed, and once that "Guess" has been "taken" -- no one can duplicate it !! FIRST COME has rights to that "Guess".6) HOWEVER, All "Guesses" MUST be posted before the clock in Denver strikes HIGH NOON on Thursday, September 12th.7) AND MOST IMPORTANTLY -- A short discussion paragraph of "Why gold is important to THAT PERSON as an investor/owner." This part of their entry MUST accompany their Price prognostication, OR the entry WILL NOT BE CONSIDERED! ----THE PRIZES !! To the person with the exact or closest "Guess" to the December ‘02 (GC2Z) SETTLEMENT price on Friday September 13th ----- an one-half ounce PURE GOLD Canadian Maple Leaf as the winning prize, with an one-tenth ounce PURE GOLD Austrian Philharmonic to BOTH the next closest guesses (runners up).---Thanks all you FORMER LURKERS that have already entered this CONTEST ! WELCOME !!<;-) Believer (09/04/02; 18:22:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 84358) My Contest Prediction My guess: $$$$398.60$$$$I believe in gold and precious metals because they are the only thing that makes sense in a world that has turned upside down, where "yes" means "no" and the truth seems to be a lie. misetich (09/04/02; 18:22:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 84357) Goldman, CSFB Named by House in Analyst, IPO Probe http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?ptitle=Top%20Financial%20News&s1=blk&tp=ad_topright_topfin&T=markets_bfgcgi_content99.ht&s2=ad_right1_topfin&bt=ad_position1_topfin&middle=ad_frame2_topfin&s=APXaK1BOVR29sZG1h Snip:By George SteinNew York, Sept. 4 (Bloomberg) -- Goldman Sachs Group Inc. and Credit Suisse First Boston Inc. are being investigated by the U.S. House Financial Services Committee, which is widening its probe of research conflicts of interest and allocations of initial share offerings at securities firms. Goldman Sachs Chief Executive Officer Henry Paulson and Credit Suisse Chief Executive Officer John Mack were asked by the committee to turn over documents, e-mails, compensation formulas and all records related to their work with communications and technology firms. *********MisetichGot gold? Chris Powell (09/04/02; 18:08:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 84356) MorganChase says it wants to lead in disclosure http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/1221 MorganChase tells GATA it wants to be a leaderin financial disclosure:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/1221To subscribe to GATA's dispatches by email and get them immediately so you don't have to go look for them, send an email to:gata-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Gandalf the White (09/04/02; 18:04:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 84355) HAIL Sir Roger The Shrubber Roger The Shrubber (09/04/02; 16:10:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 84343)Vision$$$$329.80$$$$===Thanks Sir Mikal for the correction and assistance to Sir Roger ---YES, Sir Roger, PLEASE try another GUESS as that one has been taken.Please ALL, try to check the lastest UPDATE and see if your GUESS has been taken by a PRIOR entry.EVEN though it is only the SECOND day of the Contest, entries are FLOODING IN and things are BUNCHING !LOVE IT ! --- But you will have to do a little more work before you can claim the GOLDEN PRIZES !<;-) Socrates964 (09/04/02; 17:32:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 84354) Belgian Take your point, Belgian, but surely a big rise in POG will allow an interval between the various acts of the S African tragedy - after all, it took Mugabe over 2 decades to ruin his country, and the main reason why he is going about it with such abandon is that he draws his own salary from the Congo - something which is not true of Mbeki and Co. balzac (09/04/02; 17:22:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 84353) CONTEST SORRY, The number should read $$$ 321.4 $$$Balzac balzac (09/04/02; 17:18:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 84352) SEPT. CONTEST After the anniversary of Sept. 11 and just prior to Yom Kippur on Sept. 16 there will either be a major terrorist incident or the expectation of one. ThereforeI will suggest the price of gold will rise to $$$ 121.4 $$$.Good luck to all !!!! Balzac. SilverHoard (09/04/02; 17:16:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 84351) New Citizen of the Realm Yes I too am a long time lurker at this distinguished forum. I would prefer to be called a long time student. The interaction of members ideas and knowledge has made all who attend this forum a power to be reckoned with. I would like to remphasize to all an idea I have seen cross this forum many times. We each have the responsibility to tell as many others as possible what an illusion our current monetary system really is. Again, I am proud to be a member of this distinguished community. mikal (09/04/02; 17:13:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 84350) @Roger The Shrubber Good to hear from you. Keep it up, ok? Your entry was taken by Goldenpeace. It's getting crowded up there already! Cheers! mikal (09/04/02; 17:08:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 84349) $$$$329.30$$$$ @Gandalf- This is my corrected entry, Hoople reserved $329.20. Galerider (09/04/02; 17:02:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 84348) STOCK ANALYSIS? Greetings from Japan, No one has lined up in front of the banks here, yet. My friends are seriously considering it, however. The mood is more gloomy than it has ever been. We were looking at the financial news from NY and ran across INTEL's rise in price before it reports earnings. The reason for this rise was because the investment houses, brokers, banks, etc. all lowered the earnings expectations for this company. As hard as we have it over here, we had to laugh at that one. The last rounds of these lowered earning estimates was after SEP 11th (attack of the cowards)in order to keep the market afloat. Do you think we'll see more of these? Hope the gold prices hold steady for a little longer as I need to buy more! SilverHoard (09/04/02; 17:01:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 84347) (No Subject) $$$$$312.50$$$$$ Gold coinage is the store of monetary wealth. As coinage, gold has protected many a person from both financial and physical harm. For me gold coinage is both finacial and life insurance which only my family need be aware of. I have traveled to far down the road of life to not have realized that fiat currencies of any color will enslave us. Belgian (09/04/02; 16:54:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 84346) @ Socrates964 (Hedging web) Only one prudent reflexion, with personal mixed emotions, on goldmine-writings out of South Afrika. When a country's currency (the rand) is, now more than ever before, completely at the goldmining's service...Do fill in, the dots, yourself, and take peace with the obvious conclusions. Gold being the anti-thesis of fiat and the South African Golden Arch, producing a permanent depreciating currency that soon will even be too expensive to print it. What an ugly tragedy. The Knife (09/04/02; 16:30:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 84345) $$$321.1$$$ Why gold is important....Something (gold) has to be a measure of value against currencies. Therefore, my personal choice are gold coins. Helps me sleep at night...ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. Socrates964 (09/04/02; 16:11:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 84344) Gold $$$ 345.00 $$$My cyclical model tells me that we are in an up-phase which should peak around this level towards the end of September. I'll guess that it will get there by settlement.Btw, who thinks that Mining Web/Tim Wood is fair and objective in its/his coverage? While Bill Murphy does himself no favors by flying off the handle at the smallest provocation, I must say that in the limited time that I have followed Tim Wood, I have found that he shows indecent haste in publishing anything anti-GATA/anti-GATA associated stocks like DROOY (e.g. MWW's visa episode), and deplorable laziness in promoting any news that is bullish for gold. Indeed, HedgingWeb would seem to be a more appropriate title. What say you, ladies and gentlemen? Roger The Shrubber (09/04/02; 16:10:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 84343) Vision $$$$329.80$$$$ Good Day To All. First, I should say thank you for your insight and colorful commentaries over the past two years. Learning CAN be fun. For the past five years I have been part of a junior mining/exploration co. that will soon be public, and have often shared with the board members your analysis of the gold market. There is gold in them thar hills, and I don't think we'll be hedging -- that's an understatement. In fact, we probably won't sell until the spot is close to REAL market value. I believe that there is already one company in CANADA that is doing just that. My reason for holding gold is for insurance, as much as it is for an investment. There are going to be troublesome days ahead, but those same days will also be the greatest days. I believe that there will be a significant transfer of wealth from the "unjust" {I think we have an idea who some of those are}to the "just". This is not speculation, my source has a perfect tract record for reliability. One hero of mine, the late Admiral H. Rickover, had a plack on the wall that read "Where there is no vision, the people perish". Hosea, son of Beeri, once wrote, "my people perish for lack of knowledge". They were both right. Right on the money you might say....no pun intended. I think that there exists in this forum, both vision {for a better, more honest world}, and knowledge. Since wisdom is the correct application of knowledge, I do believe that much of that is present here also. Godspead to the truth. ---- roger that --Roger-- Waverider (09/04/02; 14:56:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 84342) DAILY GOLD MARKET REPORT http://www.usagold.com/DailyQuotes.html Thanks Black Blade! Hey...rather than "The Afternoon Gold Report", how about "The Blade Gold Report"? :) mikal (09/04/02; 14:19:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 84341) $$$$329.20$$$$ I hold gold because it's rare, durable, and beautiful, agreeing with Alan Greenspan that gold "stands as a protector of property rights." and Hans Sennholz who believes "no other commodity enjoys as much universal acceptability and marketability as gold." Winston Churchill said that making profits is "not a vice" and "Nothing in life is so exhilerating as to be shot at without result.", both experiences from HOLDING gold! It's also reassuring that the disingenuous of the world can only parrot an anti-gold screech, deaf to the soothing and enabling strains of gold's unending symphony. To hold gold is to continue the achievements of all human ancestors, affirming the traditions and standards of thousands of years of free market trades and human progress. kasperjack (09/04/02; 13:13:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 84340) Tim Woods reply mining web Comment on You are begging the question, Tim Date 2002/09/04 Wed Name Tim Wood Email Address timber@mineweb.net Subject Reply to Bill Murphy Hi Bill <You have done your best to bash me, which is fair.> I have never bashed you, but you have a right to your opinion. <You have not been fair in your latest diatribe against me concerning a 17 year old copper report.> It was first and foremost about your CFTC expulsion and fine which ultimately stemmed from your trading following that copper study. <You and I know it was instigated by Jeff Christian, a former Goldman Sachs employee, who is of the bearded, daft world. Beards are great, it his stupidity that is so offensive.> Bill, I'm not sure why you are always so quick to call people names. Peter Palmedo is your Mickey Mouse, now Jeff Christian is stupid and his facial hair gets mentioned along with Goldman Sachs, as though it's the gold market equivalent to HIV. Why? How is it ever relevant. You clearly revel in living by the sword of your tongue which is why it is odd that you are so sensitive to criticism. However, I have never, never come across anyone among the professionals who has resorted to calling you names the way you do them. <Why won't you DISCLOSE that to the MININGWEB???> The story was NOT prompted by Jeff Christian, but by a friend who is also in the media. <Why are you so defensive in bringing this fact to your readership?> I was given a copy of the CFTC investigation and sanction, which piqued my interest because it was vastly more serious than you had alluded to in our earlier conversations. You made the copper report important because you said it was what prompted you to go long copper and the CFTC investigation spans that activity. In following up on that report, professionals in copper at the time did not know of a World Bank report by Frank Veneroso. Jeff Christian was one of the people I consulted. In a subsequent conversation with Mr Veneroso, it became clear that it was not a conventional World Bank report and was commissioned in an unusual way by the IFC and the Escondida partners as a follow up to the overall due diligence for the project. Mr Veneroso also denied that you could have studied his report as you claim since he was constrained by confidentiality issues from giving it to you. <You have crapped on me ever since you attended our C-Span covered press conference at the Washington Press Club luncheon on Lincoln's Birthday.> Nonsense. You copped a fair hearing on that day; indeed no other publication even mentioned it. We have always had a contentious relationship, but that doesn't stop us reporting on you. We don't have an agenda or thrive on vendettas. I, personally, have consistently reported on the circumstantial credibility of the investigations by Reg Howe and James Turk. <John Mesrobian, a mega MININGWEB follower would like to meet with you in New York to calmly go over the gold issues. > It is impossible to conduct a rational conversation with Mesrobian. I have tried to understand him through a lengthy e-mail correspondence and he is simply incapable of backing up his assertions with facts. He is always eager for me to write only bullish gold news or to bash Barrick, but never vice versa. <From what John tells me, you REFUSE to meet with him.> It's not that I refuse, I just couldn't be bothered. There is nothing that he can say or offer that is of any value to either me or our global audience, now 100,000 strong. Just look at his obsession with Nick Goodwin for brilliantly calling the most recent top and urging investors to wait before getting back in. He cannot bear that Nick saw the turn back to $300 while John was calling for everyone to keep building long positions at $320+. Nick is a trader's dream, yet he has been thoroughly maligned by John who now admits that he has not personally studied Nick's model. <Is that true? If so, you have sunk to a new low - just an extenuation of The New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, Rueters and Bloomberg - all of which have not MENTIONED GATA in over 3 years. We do not exist in their George Orwellian world. > Everyone has a a right to speak, nobody has a not a right to be heard and least of all to be mentioned in the media. <If you cannot even agree to meet with a GATA supporter who has the most honorable of intentions> He does not have honorable intentions. An e-mail Mesrobian sent me inadvertenly (it was meant for another Web outlet) indicates what his real agenda is. It is nothing I could be interested in. <one has to wonder whether you have the gold world at interest, or THE PIG world of George Orwell.> I think you have hit the nail on the head Bill. Miningweb is not a gold shill, it is happy to consider every angle. We do not dwell in a parallel universe where Tim Wood is on the payroll of the bullion banks. One of your most paranoid supporters once said I had taken instruction from JP Morgan. Glad to hear this, I called JP Morgan human resources the next morning to demand the health insurance I lack as an independent. After all, if I'm on the take can't they even spare an HMO plan! No luck. I suffered similar rejection from Goldman Sachs, Deutsche, UBSW, BMO, Scotia, Merrills ad infinitum. If someone could pass me the conspiracy hotline, I would be glad for it, because I could use some more income. <Please respond to John Mesrobian, if you even read this.> I filter his e-mails and have now started to filter his Web comments. It is pointless; he operates at a sub-rational level where only he is right. <MW readers: Jim Sinclair was the legend of legends during the late 1970's/1980 gold run-up. I was there. He had all the Arab accounts, as well as the big politicos, business and movie star accounts. He was to GOLD what Bunker Hunt was to SILVER!> And Miningweb is happy to take the kudos for letting Jim's voice be heard more widely in 2000, when Bill also called him names because at that time he did not believe there was any conspiracy. Regards Tim kasperjack (09/04/02; 13:10:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 84339) Bill Murphy Tim Wood debate www.mining web Gold Comment on A $5 mystery for gold Date 2002/09/04 Wed Name Bill Murphy Email Address LePatron@LeMetropoleCafe.com Subject You are begging the question, Tim Hi Tim, You have done your best to bash me, which is fair. You have not been fair in your latest diatribe against me concerning a 17 year old copper report. You and I know it was instigated by Jeff Christian, a former Goldman Sachs employee, who is of the bearded, daft world. Beards are great, it his stupidity that is so offensive. Why won't you DISCLOSE that to the MININGWEB??? Why are you so defensive in bringing this fact to your readership? You have crapped on me ever since you attended our C-Span covered press conference at the Washington Press Club luncheon on Lincoln's Birthday. John Mesrobian, a mega MININGWEB follower would like to meet with you in New York to calmly go over the gold issues. From what John tells me, you REFUSE to meet with him. Is that true? If so, you have sunk to a new low - just an extenuation of The New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, Rueters and Bloomberg - all of which have not MENTIONED GATA in over 3 years. We do not exist in their George Orwellian world. If you cannot even agree to meet with a GATA supporter who has the most honorable of intentions, one has to wonder whether you have the gold world at interest, or THE PIG world of George Orwell. Please respond to John Mesrobian, if you even read this. Best regards, Bill Murphy The CoinGuy (09/04/02; 13:00:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 84338) $$$$$325.20$$$$$ A complete asset in your hand.The(physical)CoinGuy Gandalf the White (09/04/02; 12:57:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 84337) OR, Sir Pippin --- ARE those the reasons that you have gold ?Trying to understand !Thanks<;-) Gandalf the White (09/04/02; 12:55:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 84336) Thanks Sir Pippin for letting us know your feelings ! BUT-- Pippin (09/04/02; 12:50:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 84335) NOW tell us WHY gold is important to you !----REQUIRED discussion item for entry----Thanks<;-) Pippin (09/04/02; 12:50:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 84335) $$$$ 331.2 $$$$ I have the feeling that political events will accelerate. Weeks ahead may be bumpy.Greetings to all. Rock (09/04/02; 12:19:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 84334) "The Privelege of the Elite....within the grasp of the prudent" Contest ......$324.50 Let me lift this big rock up (my burden has been qiite heavy lately) and climb out of my despair for a few minutes to yawn and stretch and poke my head outside. What a beautiful day! The air is fresh and the very existence of "freedom" that I feel has more value to me than anything else in the world. (maybe I watch too much History channel) Of course like all of us I would like that freedom spent in comfort and safety, neverless today I am a free man and I can choose to do whatever the heck I want. That's awesome! For now I choose to stay home after completing my 2 hour power walk at one of the beautiful bird sanctuary's located next to the Long Island Sound here in beautiful Connecticut. My birthday of all days is 9-10 the day before the most horrible event that has ever occurred on American soil. How was I to know that life as I know it would never be the same again the day after my last birthday? I don't know about any of you but it sure has taken a toll on my physic. Just one more thing to complain to my VA shrink about. Its been a difficult task but I have been struggling to keep my home economics course updated and current here at USA Gold. Even as the landscape changes around us continually and though the face of the sky often helps us discern the weather. When the markets change so fast with no consistency it catches the uninformed sheeple off guard and many lose much. It amazes me that we can discern the skys and know when the sun raises or sets or when a north storm is blowing in, yet the CBNC Crew and those that join their opinions can't discern these obvious signs that the financal markets have revealled to us and they are in dire distress yet the masses just don't see that perfect storm brewing. Can you see it Blade? How about you Mish? or you Mr "G" can you see the perfect storm coming? I could go around the table and I think we are all in agreement. My guess for the price of gold is $324.50. I have a personal reason for that number. I coud list many reasons to own gold. I've been in precious metals since 1998. It has given me and my family a sense of financial security especially now when the stock market is acting like some kind of water wiggle gone out of control and when do you get back in without getting wet? My advice is you don't. Get Gold.I sleep better knowing deep in my great heart I have provided my family with some valuable assets, real money and at the same time insurance on that dreaded rainy day that approaches us all. Remember the Blade's words, stock up the best you can. Who but God himself knows what lurks behind the corner but its best not to get hit blinded. We've all be forwarned.Well, back to my other projects. Good day all and thanks for listening. Rock AKA Great Heart! De Ronin (09/04/02; 12:16:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 84333) $$$$311.40$$$$ I'm an Elliott Wave /Bob Prechter devotee who believes the deflationary bout that is unfolding will depress the price of all commodities further, including gold. I am none-the-less adding to my personal physical gold holdings on a regular basis especially on price dips. The Hoople (09/04/02; 12:04:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 84332) $$$$329.20$$$$ Asking why gold is important to me is like asking someone in Miami why plywood was important to them before Hurricane Andrew hit. I don't want my damn financial house blown away! The difference is at least people in the path of the hurricane were accurately warned. Cabal rigging and media propoganda will give most people no chance to protect their wealth until the financial hurricane hits. These are extraodinary times, I don't think comparisons to 1929 or prior bubbles do justice to the gravity of the problems. Helpless urban dwellers,derivatives, and nuclear maniacs are but three scary things that didn't exist 70 years ago. The fine folks here at CPM are basically insurance salesmen. What portion of your portfolio do you want to insure with the barberous relic? Belgian (09/04/02; 11:40:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 84331) @ De Ronin Wim Duisenbergh (ECB) : Gold will remain an important asset in monetary policy. For obvious reasons, he couldn't say : Gold is the ultimate monetary reserve !Platinum is an industrial commodity, fully controled by South Africa and Russia ! Rule of thumb was (!) that Pt always was priced as follows : POG + 100$ per ounce. This for the time that Gold was considered, only, as a commodity as well. This *commodity* relationship (Au/Pt) has been broken since 1995 !!! Co-incidence ? No Sir ! So, platinum now lives his own life. Forget about fuel-cells for the time being. There's an oil-war going on there. We will exhaust the existing "cheap" oil reserves before any serious alternative will be put in practice. (No Bush in Johannesburg-!) . Central Banks have no oil reserves and therefore have to go to war for it. Ferdinand Lips gave us his book on the history of the Gold wars. This as an answer to your question if I'm as bullish on Pt as on Au ! No I am definitely not !Recently, Pt, failed to confirm a very bullish signal on its 560$ LT-resistance line. But in French we say, reculer pour mieux sauter (one step back to jump further). Since Pt is dominated by an oligarchy, its price will always be nicely managed at "their" convience.Some funny math : Pt = 540$. Therefore commodity gold (not monetary Gold) should be priced 440$ (past rule of thumb).Another (past) relation between POG and POO was a factor 13 to 15x. POO 28$ x 15 = 420$, pretty close in line with the Au/Pt relation.The reason *why* Au is only priced at 313$ is daily elaborated here at the USAGOLD-forum. This bit of rather infantile math, only accentuates the pressure that exists on Gold as a monetary asset (not as commodity) to defend worthless fiat. Conclusion : Gold isn't even allowed to behave as a commodity anymore !!!! That explosive is the state of affairs today. old gold (09/04/02; 11:40:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 84330) $$$$341.7$$$$ I own gold because it holds a nonperishable value, it is a true store of wealth. Gold has been THE true measure of wealth for thousands of years, and in todays world of fiat money, gold will shine it's light so bright that the "many" will realize what a "few" already know. goldenpeace (09/04/02; 11:36:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 84329) Contest $$$$$$329.8$$$$$$$As the Cabal's situation deteriorates, they are barely hanging on by their fingernails to a critical level.Snowballing equity losses have forced the Fed to add lots of liquidity to the banks to jolly all the martkets along, but the Dollar and Bonds have "gotten wind " of it and are starting to tank, putting lots more pressure on JPM interest rate derivatives. Gold derivatives will fail in the fortnight after this contest ends.As for gold, it seems its the only power that isn't lying to the American people just now.Bowing to the boards virtue.... sector (09/04/02; 11:32:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 84328) POG Mini Launch to $315.95 Like a spike See if it holds thru the COMEX close. ha_tey_o (09/04/02; 11:15:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 84327) $$$$$$ 328.10 $$$$$$ I've been a lurker on this site for a long time and studying the gold issue for many years. But I only made an investment in bullion early this year. My reason for believing that gold is an important investment is that it is the ultimate real money and that my fear that the current pyramid of paper is in jeopardy has makes gold the perfect way to preserve and protect my family's savings. Henri (09/04/02; 10:58:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 84326) Contest Entry $$$$375.00$$$#Gold shines nicely when polished and makes me feel good when I hold it....did I mention that later someone else may be willing to give me many more pieces of fiat for it than I gave to get it? Gandalf the White (09/04/02; 10:54:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 84325) some PRELIMINARY answers for Sir De Ronin (09/04/02; 10:38:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 84321) Questions about platinumI have heard the platinum is an intrical component for extracting hydrogen on most prevalent fuel cell processes. How and why? **** A Catalyst makes a reaction "speed up", or react faster, WITHOUT changing or consuming the catalyst !Catalysts are RARE EARTH components !!If we make a push towards fuel cell technology, will it significantly increase the demand for platinum? ****** Maybe ! Depends on the demand for other uses.One would think that demand for Automobile exhaust converters may not need the consumption of the past.Can the platinum be reused or is it more of a catalytic process? ******* Fuzzy question here ! Pt is not consumed and may be recovered when it is used as a catalyst !How much current platinum production from the CIS? ****** I do not know !Are you as bullish on platinum as you are on gold ?****** BIG, NO !!! I do not know of any Central Banks that hold Pt as a WEALTH equivalent !Now we await BETTER answers from the EXPERTS !<;-) Belgian (09/04/02; 10:42:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 84324) @ Knallgold (J. Tailer's London friend) If (big if) any central bank has been unloading (selling/leasing) reserve-Gold, physically, from its vaults...this CB knows the possible, very, dangerous consequence of not seeing it back in its vaults, in physical form. The same goes for forward selling of underground Gold or any private individual who should give his/her physical Gold out of his/her hands. Whatever the purpose was/is, for giving one's physical out of hand...the future settlement of the deal will mostly turn out much differently as espected.I've come to the point where I'm NOT interested anymore as to how CBs/Miners/BBs or private Gold, will settle their Gold trade ! I'm only interested in "who" wants to "hold" "how much" physical Gold and for "how long" ?In other words : Who puts the confetti (digits) into question, today/tomorrow, and how serious is the real depreciation of any fiat so far ?For as long as CBs do have physical Gold in their vaults as a reserve...they will be forced (inclined to) to use this tangible reserve, somehow, sometime. It even doesn't matter that much of how many tonnes are left. As soon as fiat distrust gains the upperhand...Gold will be valued accordingly.Postfactum, CBs will claim, that they did everything they could, even selling Gold from its reserves, to protect the citizen's currency. Bullion banks might even be praised (and rewarded) for their co-operation on fiat's trust-campaign. All this regardless of how everything will be settled at the day of final reckoning. The day that more and more people (Giants or lilliputans) decide by " basic instinct" that the confetti is no longer to be trusted and that moronic priced physical Gold becomes a very wise alternatif. Making "available" Gold scarce and forcing all Gold-managing parties to settle their trades in one way or another.If bullion banks or miners or central banks, want to settletheir contracts, exclusively, with fiat...they must have that fiat or able to generate it ! Find billions of fiat or tonnes of Gold ! If not, default, or/and, be eaten by your creditor. 3.000 tonnes of underground, forward sold, Gold *must* be mined or bought on the market and X-tonnes of vault-gone CB Gold must be returned or paid for or bought in the market. None of these settlements are possible when a POG rising trend should attract physical accumulation of Gold. Miners don't have any money to buy Gold in the market and bullion banks have either. If CBs accept fiat instead of physical Gold...underground Gold will smell *the* opportunity of being in command on the conditions for returning (mining) the Gold. The Giants will smell this too and will add pressure by increasing the POG with accumulating physical (making it scarcer).All the above only changes (shortens not prolonges) the timing of the final unwinding of the Gold drama. But makes no difference to the fundamental growing distrust of the confetti's intrinsic worth.If the Japanese banking domino goes down, the global banking crisis, (read : run) might well take a temptatif start. This unresolved banking crisis since 1995 (Japanese bank run à la 1929) could very probably become a *high profile* thing with a lot of scaring noice, attracting undiscrete/unwanted, attention on US's banks. Add on this a fiat settlement for reserve Gold...and kaboom, POG panics and gaps up and away, whatever the settlement than might be.Those forces who decide on POG's behavior are holding the key to unlock Gold and let it be FREE. The coming POG rise will be completely different in nature as that what we have seen in the past 21 years (1980>2001). Official OR private Gold will decide on fiat's future role and importance.That's why Gold has been locked (is locked) after all. W've come to the stage of impossible "in-between" solution, being a bit more of fiat depreciation and a bit higher POG (400$/600$/1.200$). No ! This time it is going to be a dramatic re-emergence of Gold into the center of the monetary spectrum. We must not exclude that CB(s) even might confiscate part or the complete 3.000 tonnes of "deep storage" Gold, down the mine's shafts. This if the bulk of these 3.000 tonnes of underground gold can't possibly be mined anymore (profitably) in the context of an hyperinflation.Everything is always possible ! Gold advocates only have to worry about the public's remaining confidence in confetti and other paper (bonds/stocks).When the gold-industry (WGC) suggested to make Gold more available with the means of gold-bonds (paper-gold), they admitted indirectly to be co-operative with all fiat advocates and defenders !!! The rumor that CBs should be prepared to accept fiat (settlement) for their lost (?) goldreserves is more of the same fiat-advocacy !!!I DON'T WANT THAT PAPER ANYMORE ! BASTA !Regards to you Herr Knallgold. sector (09/04/02; 10:38:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 84322) Landmark 'down' day for NYSE Intense selling to continue, says noted researcher By Thom Calandra, CBS.MarketWatch.comLast Update: 11:05 AM ET Sept. 4, 2002SAN FRANCISCO (CBS.MW) -- A noted researcher on Wednesday confirmed the first levels of panic selling in the U.S. stock market since April 2001.Noted researcher confirms panic selling on NYSEThe selling Tuesday on the New York Stock Exchange drove stock indexes down more than 4 percent in a day. Paul F. Desmond said Tuesday's activity qualified as a so-called 90 percent downside day -- an indication the worst in the stock market is far from over.Desmond, president of researcher Lowry's Reports, says 92.2 percent of total volume on the NYSE Tuesday was negative. Total points lost among the stocks that traded reached 94.2 percent."This is strong evidence that the July low was only a temporary market bottom, that investors are just beginning to panic and that the broad market is headed for significant new lows," Desmond said in his strongest statement to date about the direction of the equity market.Desmond is held in high regard by technical analysts. His work on bear-market bottoms earned him the Charles Dow Award for research this year. Desmond's research, going back to 1933, shows the stock market virtually always undergoes prolonged stretches of intense selling before a bear-market bottom is formed.Desmond has long argued that most investors are refusing to acknowledge the fiscal pain they have endured in this, the third year of falling stock-market indexes. Acceptance of their dire financial straits and panic selling go hand in hand, he says from his Florida office.Desmond identifies such selling by gauging negative volume on points lost. "History shows that major market bottoms in the past have been preceded by an average of five 90 percent downside days before the final lows," he says.From November 1973 to December 1974, 14 of these 90 percent downside days occurred. Desmond's studies indicate no stock market can launch a meaningful and lasting rally without the horrible, nerve-jangled selling that comes with a full-blown panic. Such wholesale selling eventually ignites demand for low-priced securities. See: Red writing on the wall. Nasdaq on Tuesday failed to exceed the threshold for panic selling. Negative volume reached 94.1 percent Tuesday but points lost equaled just 88.5 percent. "We expect to see several 90 percent downside days on Nasdaq before the start of a sustained uptrend," Desmond told CBS.MarketWatch.com on Wednesday.Nasdaq's main index lost 3.9 percent Tuesday vs. a 4.1 percent loss for the Dow Jones Industrial Average and a 4.7 percent loss for the NYSE Composite Index (NYA: news, chart, profile) Desmond in his research saw no signs during the September 2001 decline, or afterward, that investors had truly thrown in the towel on the stock market. In other words, there were no NYSE days when 90 percent of all trading activity was marked by falling prices for the securities exchanged and 90 percent of prices were negative, as measured by points lost. The last such day came April 3, 2001, when 90.8 percent of NYSE volume was in the red and 90.7 percent of all points gained or lost were in the minus columnDesmond's research flies in the face of many Wall Street brokerages and economists, who say this summer's selling represented a buying opportunity for long-suffering investors. The veteran researcher's findings point to a prolonged, and painful, healing process for stocks, which Desmond regards as still expensive by historic standards.The silver lining in Desmond's findings is that such panic-laden sales "are typically followed by snap-back rallies lasting from two to seven days before the downtrend resumes." The snap-backs, alas, are meant as exit points for those who no longer can tolerate their long-standing stock-market losses."Such rallies usually provide a good opportunity for investors to sell into strength," says Desmond, who regards Tuesday's NYSE activity as a landmark day. The October 1987 stock market crash led to numerous 90 percent downside days that eventually triggered bargain-hunting by patient investors.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++About the panic selling. It's the mutual funds who are panicing.They see no end to the outflows and very soon they will lose what slim cash they currently have [Thanks to their idiotic "All equities" policies]. That will be a watershed moment because the funds will be forced to sell in real-time with redenptions. In other words, the funds will lose any selling time-buffer they had thus exaggerating the DOW's actions. Paniced sellers call to redeem - Funds sell the stocks at the same time. About the war. Large commercial ships carrting battle tanks are being loaded and shipping for the ME. This hardly sounds like Bush plans to "consult" with Congress. De Ronin (09/04/02; 10:38:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 84321) Questions about platinum I'm predominately an energy trader but I do have a few precious metals questions related to platinum.I have heard the platinum is an intrical component for extracting hydrogen on most prevalent fuel cell processes. How and why? If we make a push towards fuel cell technology, will it significantly increase the demand for platinum? Can the platinum be reused or is it more of a catalytic process? How much current platinum production from the CIS? BB & others. Are you as bullish on platinum as you are on gold? a nation of one (09/04/02; 09:44:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 84320) social security fact In yesterday's mail I received "Your Social Security Statement," detailing my projected benefits. On the fourth page it contains the following statement: "...That amount [my actual benefit] may differ from the estimates below because ... The laws governing benefit amounts may change, because, by 2041, the payroll taxes collected will be enough to pay only about 73 percent of benefits owed."In other words, it has already been decided that monetary deficiencies in the Social Security program will be fixed by not meeting present benefits obligations.When it actually starts happening, I wonder what percentage of Americans will openly recognize it as a 'default.' Buena Fe (09/04/02; 08:55:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 84319) Aureo Speedwagon (09/04/02; 05:12:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 84303) Ha Ha,Thanks for the essay, what a hoot! A great argument for gold as money. silvercollector (09/04/02; 08:26:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 84318) From Headline News.......... "Bush won't attack without approval from Congress"What does this mean and does it lower the chances of Iraq/US war? Galearis (09/04/02; 08:07:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 84317) @ R. Powell & G-khan on the sterling scam Rich, thanks for your kind words of support of yesterday. It is very important that the news of this thing gets out. We start on a few forums and it may prompt some government probes and response from the mainstream media! As an individual I do my part and only ask others to verify what I have found. We must always try, as individuals, to keep our society honest. It is a duty.Rich has it exactly correct about my position on this "sterling" jewelry problem. Others have to. This is one of my interpretations for what is behind this situation, and I very much think that the concept has passed through the mind of Ted Butler as a speculation too. It is expressed in (part of) an email I received from my brother this morning:*******snip One of the guys in the office overheard M. P. [the owner of a silver broker] talking on the phone about phoney sterling jewelry. M. was out of the office at the time I called in, so I had no opportunity to discuss this with him, but you have obviously made quite an impression on real world silver market perceptions.Obviously, pm fraud is widespread, both in gold and silver, and yes, I think this is the waythe market is handling the deficit. If the vast majority of silver jewelry is now fake, this would just about eliminate the supply deficit, and explains why those COMEX stockpiles sitstubbornly at 107 Moz. Too bad for the CABAL, you can't use plated silver in photography.When the public finds out about the jewelry fraud, they will just stop buying it, and theCABAL wins again. Melt all small bars into 1000 ozers, and eliminate silver as a jewelrymetal, and you have eliminated a huge chunk of non-industrial demand (jewelry and investment demand).************Now you see from whence I also come.Best regards,G. Tevye (09/04/02; 08:02:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 84316) Contest $$$ 316.00 $$$On the one hand, Gold is a reliable store of value in this life; On the other hand, in the next life, Gold is pavement. Make the right preparations for life.Gold. Its Tradition!Tevye. Spartacus (09/04/02; 07:36:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 84315) Japan http://www.ananova.com/business/story/sm_663524.html?menu=business.economy --Former chief cabinet secretary Hidenao Nakagawa, known as a close aide to President Junichiro Koizumi, said the government should ask the Resolution and Collection Corp (RCC) buy bad loans from banks and inject public funds into banks as an additional anti-deflation measure."The current sharp decline in Japanese share prices has been reflecting the state of the ailing economy and predicts the future of the economy."Therefore, it is high time the government should take drastic measures to stop deflationary economic conditions," he told a business meeting."Especially at stake is how to resolve banks' bad loans problem, which is working against the flow of capital in the economy."Prime Minister Koizumi should undertake a policy measure to let the Resolution and Collection Corp buy the 52.4 trln yen in banks' bad loans at market value, which means the RCC should buy bad loans at 30-40% (of the book value)," he added.In addition, he said: "When banks sell their bad loans some losses may be booked. In that case, the government should inject public funds into those banks which face the threat of a low capital base."Such a measure should be debated at the next extraordinary parliamentary session scheduled for this fall."Citing data from the Financial Services Agency, Nakagawa said the outstanding balance of bad loans at banks jumped to 52.4 trln yen as of end-March this year from 38 trln the previous year.-- Waverider (09/04/02; 07:35:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 84314) Topix Drop Raises Concern Japan May Have to Aid Banks http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?ptitle=Top%20Financial%20News&s1=blk&tp=ad_topright_topfin&T=markets_bfgcgi_content99.ht&s2=ad_right1_topfin&bt=ad_position1_topfin&middle=ad_frame2_topfin&s=APXWyQxVyVG9waXgg Snip:"A drop in Japan's Topix Index to below 900 for the first time since December 1984 is raising the prospect that stock losses will force the government to rescue banks for the third time in four years, investors said. The Topix index fell 2 percent to 886.39 at the 3 p.m. close of trading in Tokyo. The average capital-adequacy ratio for Japan's seven biggest lenders would be 8.97 percent with the Topix at 900, according to HSBC Securities (Japan) Ltd. banking analyst Hironari Nozaki. The average would fall about 1 percentage point for each 100-point drop in the Topix, meaning an index decline to 800 would push it below the 8 percent minimum for banks with overseas operations. The government may have a hard time coming up with much money. The national debt is projected to reach 140 percent of gross domestic product by March, the biggest burden in the industrialized world. ``The slide also raises concerns over a possible financial system meltdown and that's reflected in the banks' share prices,'' said Tetsuo Inoue, who manages about 10 billion yen in Japanese equities at UAM Japan Inc." perform (09/04/02; 07:34:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 84313) (No Subject) $$$$354.4$$$$As a contrarian investor in general and a goldbug in particular. "Even a man with one eye can see a mountain". Now where did I hear that before ?. MO VER MEG (09/04/02; 07:34:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 84312) $314.90$ Gold provides a degree stability in tumultuous times. Besides, the Greenbacks look like monopoly money. Spartacus (09/04/02; 07:24:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 84311) US Congress Wants To Have A Say In Decision On Iraq http://biz.yahoo.com/djus/020904/0141000057_1.html WASHINGTON (AP)--President Bush has promised to consult Congress before waging war in Iraq. He hasn't said whether he will explicitly ask Congress' approval to dispatch troops to depose Saddam, the Iraqi president.----------------Sen. Patrick J. Leahy, D-Vt., chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, is drawing a line in the sand. "The administration should not expect to commit American troops to war with a wink and a nod to Congress," he said last week."There should be a full debate and a vote," Leahy said. "That is what the Constitution prescribes, and that is what the American people expect." misetich (09/04/02; 06:53:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 84310) Goodbye, Surplus. Hello, Train Wreck- http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/sep2002/nf2002093_9569.htm Snip:More realistically, the nation is looking at annual deficits for the foreseeable future and increases in the national debt through the decade. Goldman Sachs economist John Youngdahl sees yearly deficits in the $200 billion range through 2007. Others, including Ian Shepherdson, chief U.S. economist for consultants High Frequency Economics, forecasts deficits of $300 billion-plus at least through 2004.THE COMING CRUNCH. Even according to the CBO forecasts, the national debt won't get much lower than $3 trillion. If the Wall Streeters are right, it'll balloon to well over $4 trillion. And that wistful hope of getting the debt to zero? Gone with the wind. That, by the way, means the government will have to spend almost $2 trillion over the next 10 years just to pay interest on its bonds.*********MisetichAre interest costs added on?Are off-budget items taken in consideration?Got gold? misetich (09/04/02; 06:06:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 84309) The perils of ignoring bubbles http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1028186239562&p=1012571727285 Snip:Now that the bubble has burst and tax collection has collapsed, legislators are stuck with unpopular alternatives. Do they raise taxes, cut spending or increase debt? With the economy sputtering along, the first two options look pretty bad. But borrowing is unavailable to almost everyone bar the federal government in Washington - and even there it is unclear how wise it is. The internet bubble created these problems and they surely involve hundreds of billions of dollars.Underfunding of Social Security, the US public pension system, has been a problem for years. And now we learn that the stock market boom and bust has created trouble for the private system. When high stock returns drive the accumulations in these private funds above the level that actuaries say they need, the sponsoring companies are allowed to make withdrawals. These "negative" pension contributions increase company profits, driving stock prices even higher.Needless to say, a lot of this went on during the late 1990s. With the stock market falling, these pensions have become underfunded and so companies are now forced to put the money back in - money that, if it had not been for the bubble, would never have been withdrawn in the first place. Today, some say the size of the problem is about $100bn.***********MisetichThey thought they had fount Utopia - government, big business,central bankers - investors - Where will this trail end?Got gold? misetich (09/04/02; 05:56:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 84308) Planned job cutbacks rise in August - Firms expect to eliminate 118,067 http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/247/business/Planned_job_cutbacks_rise_in_August+.shtml Snip:By Bloomberg News, 9/4/2002WASHINGTON - US job-cut announcements rose 46 percent in August from the previous month, according to a private survey.........The number of disclosed job cuts rebounded from a 14-month low reached in July. Consolidated Freightways Corp., the third-biggest US trucker, yesterday said it's ceasing operations and firing 15,500 workers.''Job creation remains very low, capital spending is still virtually nonexistent, and there is nothing really moving to give this economy traction,'' John Challenger, the outplacement company's chief executive, said in a statement............''As companies wait for this elusive rebound, they will continue to eliminate jobs to preserve whatever profits they have been able to achieve,'' Challenger said.***********MisetichThird Qtr pre-announcements will bring further job cuts - Got gold? misetich (09/04/02; 05:28:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 84307) $$$$331.30$$$$ Gold offers the highest financial comfort, safety in the a crumbling financial house of cards Gold Standard (09/04/02; 05:26:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 84306) War against Iraq, and why we will not win...... This is my opinion only, but hey! That's why we have a Forum!As far as I can see, since Richard Butler (no relative of Ted's, although Smedley Butler (1881-1940) could well be Ted's grand-father) was turfed out of Iraq 3 or 4 years ago, all of the Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) being gleefully created by Saddam Hussein's henchmen would all have been relocated to hospital, bomb-shelter and pre-school basements.The only way the Bush Hawks could successfully cleanse Iraq of WMD's is, unfortunately, to bomb the crap out of the the aforesaid hospitals, pre-schools et al.It is not going to be pretty, is it? misetich (09/04/02; 05:23:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 84305) ANALYSIS-Stocks just one of time bombs ticking at Japan banks http://www.forbes.com/newswire/2002/09/04/rtr711815.html Snip:"Falling stocks just bring to light the excessive risks banks are saddled with," said Hiroshi Hosoda at Rating and Investment Information, a domestic credit rating agency."This adversely hits their already weakened capital and leaves banks with less freedom to cope with other problems."...........If the Nikkei average falls towards 8,000, capital adequacy ratios at top banks could breach eight percent, the minimum required for globally operating banks, analysts said."I don't see a crisis as defined as capital adequacy ratios falling below eight percent," said an analyst at a foreign brokerage who declined to be named. "But meeting the requirement and being a sound bank is an entirely different issue."To beef up capital, the banks are issuing subordinated bonds or preferred securities that cannot be converted into shares.This brings its own risks.Most of the buyers are life insurance firms, and the banks in return have given them subordinated loans to help their finances.Under existing guidelines, loans to life insurers are categorised as healthy, so banks do not need to set aside provisions, regardless of an insurer's financial condition -- and many of them are in difficulty.**********MisetichTick...Tick...Tick... - Got gold? NEMO me impune lacessit (09/04/02; 05:21:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 84304) $$$$362.30$$$$ Why I am holding gold so dear ?(This rhyme is quite revealing.)It takes away that frightening fear,that´s opposite to healing.It gives me freedom - gives me calm.It shines so lovely in my palm.It makes me King - when dealing. NEMO Aureo Speedwagon (09/04/02; 05:12:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 84303) Gold will still be money after Nanotechnology becomes a reality http://www.kurzweilai.net/meme/frame.html?main=/articles/art0508.html Snippit:What Is Money?Assuming some form of physical specie will still be useful in a nanotechnology-rich society, what form should it take? We recognize that money generally serves two well-known primary functions: A store of value, and a medium of transaction. As a result, we can postulate that in the ideal form: 1. Money should be an efficient store of value, having high value per unit volume or per unit mass. 2. Money should be available in small enough physical sizes to be readily portable, even in the largest denominations, by human users, thus facilitating exchange transactions and specie warehousing. 3. Money should be physically stable for a duration of time spanning at least the maximum intended period of transactions and/or the maximum value storage horizon. 4. Money should not be inherently physically dangerous to its owner (e.g. radioactive, poisonous, explosive, etc.). But money must also be trustworthy, which has several additional implications: 5. Money should be difficult to counterfeit. 6. Money should be difficult or impossible to replicate at a cost less than its cost of manufacture even by the most efficient means possible. That is, production costs (aka "intrinsic value") should approximate face value; seigniorage should be minimal to nil. 7. Money should be immediately recognizable as the intended denomination of the intended specie. Once revealed, the intrinsic value of the specie should be difficult to disguise. If unrevealed, the specie should still be compact enough to hide (from thieves or tax authorities) on one's person or elsewhere; see (2) above. 8. Money should be self-validating by its own physical form, and not rely upon any legalistic governmental imprimatur, easily-altered surface stamping, or monopoly minting authority to partake of value (e.g., no "fiat" specie).In a nanotechnology-intensive world, any form of physical currency whose value depends solely upon the physical arrangement of common atoms must likely fail one or more of the above criteria. For example, today's paper money and base-metal coins are easily counterfeited. A perfect replica hundred-dollar bill of mass ~1 gram can be manufactured by Drexler's ~1 kg desktop manufacturing appliance at the rate of one banknote per second, an output providing the operator with an income of $360,000 per hour. It may take 30 years to catch up to deci-trillionaire Bill Gates, but then again, the counterfeiter can always buy more manufacturing appliances. The desktop machine can also produce 5 carats/sec of already-cut investment-grade diamonds, reproducing the entire 1995 world demand for polished stone (19 million carats) in 44 days. Goodbye, DeBeers. GoldCoins made of gold, the rarest of the traditional precious metals in the Earth's crust, are a step in the right direction because gold atoms are inherently somewhat scarce. This scarcity may hold true even in a world of abundant nanotechnology. Consider: One of every 3 billion atoms in ordinary crustal rock is a gold atom, or 3.1 ppb (parts-per-billion) by weight. All natural gold atoms are of one isotope, Au197. A ~10 kg nanotech desktop refinery wholly dedicated to sorting gold atoms from crustal rock, perhaps employing ~1 kg of the input ordering and reagent preparation subsystems found in Drexler's original manufacturing appliance, could in theory sort ~1 microgram/sec, which is a net output of about 1 troy ounce of gold per year. To achieve this paltry output, the desktop refinery must process 16,000 tons/yr of rock (~100 cm3/sec) and the unit draws about 1 megawatt of continuous power. So you get about $300/yr worth of gold, but the energy costs you $900,000/yr at today's $0.10/Kw-hr electric rates. Cost breakeven occurs if the crustal rock can be preconcentrated in gold content, using bulk chemical processes, but this may be uneconomical and hardly seems worth the trouble.Even diverting the entire present-day human energy consumption of ~10e13 watts, already approaching the hypsithermal limit for Earth, exclusively to nanotech gold extraction from crustal rock would produce only ~300 tons/yr of new gold. This won't seriously disrupt international gold prices, because world gold production already averages ~1500 tons/yr using 5,000-10,000 ppb ores, and because a total of ~100,000 tons of gold has been extracted throughout history, most of it still extant, worth ~$1 trillion at today's prices.Perhaps you are thinking that it might make more sense to do a little environmental remediation while reworking the mining industry tailings, which are typically ~1,000 ppb gold, and extracting all of the remaining precious metal. Working on the richer tailings rather than raw crustal rock, our nanotech desktop refinery could produce ~300 troy ounces of pure gold per year, worth $100,000/yr at current market prices. Unfortunately, the energy cost is still $900,000/yr at today's $0.10/Kw-hr electric rates. If future energy rates are a lot cheaper than today's rates, well and good. But note that only ~100,000,000 tons of new mine tailings are piled up annually, with each year's leavings containing ~100 tons of unextracted gold. Even if completely extracted, all of the gold in these tailings would still be far less than the total aboveground worldwide stockpile of the metal. What about seawater extraction? Gold is ~100 times less plentiful in seawater than in the crust.The bottom line is that at ~$200/cm3, gold at least minimally satisfies our eight criteria for an ideal tangible nanomoney. Its rareness will not be decisively altered by nanotechnology. Gold Standard (09/04/02; 05:02:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 84302) $$$$324.10$$$$ IMO, I reckon that TPTB are so scared of the POG/POS and POO all heading towards a SHTF status, that the PPT are prepared for a massive final assault on the markets past the blinkered eyes of the CTFC so as to ensure that the POTUS's dream of the NWO will come to fruition, despite it being yet another SNAFU.God I hate acronyms. Boxman (9/4/02; 04:27:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 84301) Contest $$$$323.70$$$$My family is to precious to me to take any chances that they would have to try and survive by scrounging in dumps, like what has befallen so many of the Argentinians, when our financial system implodes. I can do without a bigger fancier house, car, and other window dressing, and use my extra frn's to acquire the ultimate insurance, Gold (and some silver also). koala bear (9/4/02; 04:12:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 84300) att. Denis Denis, stop wasting so much time reading this forum. koala bear (9/4/02; 04:08:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 84299) Price guessing competition $$$$319.40$$$$I have three reasons why I like gold.1) It is honest money. No banker or politician can print more of it. 2) It is an inheritance for my children.3) The other reason I like gold is because I get a ‘warm-fuzzy’ feeling knowing that my meager stash will [hopefully] add to the suffering of the bullion banks when TSHTF. A pox upon the bullion banks! Knallgold (9/4/02; 03:43:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 84298) Any comments about this post by DavidJenkins (GE 03:15) "Readers may not have paid particular attention to Jay Taylor's latest report on Gold Eagle Editorial to quote from Mr Taylors letter dealing with gold. "While I was in London I spoke to a very talented man who works with Frank Veneroso. He told me it was his speculative view that the Central Banks have already granted the bullion banks (named as defendants in Reggie Howe's lawsuit) the right to repay them not in gold but in paper money. This would then provide more time before "the fecal matter hits the rotary oscillator" in the gold markets.Unfair as that would be to Americans and citizens of other countries that may have lent gold out, it would be consistent with the dishonest handling of our national gold treasury by our policy makers. I think the hunch of my English friend is most likely correct.end of quoteThink about it. " Black Blade (9/4/02; 01:39:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 84297) Sudan denies receiving al Qaida gold WASHINGTON, Sep 03, 2002 (United Press International via COMTEX) -- Sudan's acting ambassador in Washington Tuesday strongly denied a report Tuesday that Osama bin Laden's supporters had recently shipped substantial quantities of gold to Sudan in a move to secure Khartoum as a financial center for his al Qaida network. "This story is nonsense," the Deputy Chief of Mission for Sudan in Washington, Abdulbagi Kabeir, told United Press International.Black Blade: Interesting. Black Blade (9/4/02; 01:28:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 84296) European Markets Start Off Negative http://quote.yahoo.com/m2?u The Euro markets start off negative but recovers from lows. Black Blade (9/4/02; 00:27:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 84294) Asia Awash In Red http://quote.yahoo.com/m2?u Asian markets are negative and Euro markets are staring off sluggishly in the positive. It still looks like it could get "entertaining" as the markets absorb "grim" data.- Black Blade Black Blade (9/4/02; 00:09:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 84293) Another hedge book bites the dust http://www.mips1.net/mgjr.nsf/Current/85256ACE0035918D85256C2A00028165?OpenDocument Snippit: NEW YORK Randgold Resources [RRUS], which recently debuted on Nasdaq to complement a London Stock Exchange listing, has closed out 148,500 ounces of gold call options. Black Blade: Another miner bails out of hedges. ViewYesterday's Discussion.
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