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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 11/4/2001
All times are U.S. Mountain Time
(Yesterday's Discussion.)
Mr Gresham
(11/4/01; 23:32:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 64725)
Saudi Royals
http://www.newyorker.com/FACT/?011022fa_FACT1
Also, this Seymour Hersh one looks interesting as I get farther into it.
Oro had some provocative insights about them last week, and I meant to puzzle some of it out here. In supporting the Wahhabi extremists, were the Sauds playing a game to make sure there always APPEARED to be a threat to their rule, so as to keep the US in line with them? And then, has that threat (which of course was itself playing to win) gotten out of hand by Saud miscalculation?
What a story will be written when all is known about their inner workings.
Mr Gresham
(11/4/01; 23:25:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 64724)
Roach on Bonds, Euro
http://www.morganstanley.com/GEFdata/digests/latest-digest.html#anchor0
auspec, BR: that WAS an amazing series -- it seems like something smiling down upon me indeed when I can ignore sports all year, and then tune in for this one edge-of-the-seat thriller and be just an American kid again. It's also an inspiring reminder to me to do my best when things are going the other way...
Stephen Roach & crew; I haven't gotten through all the Euro stuff yet, but it has the level of detail that reminds us we know almost nothing of the banking and fiscal systems behind it. We get FOA's and Oro's and Randy's differing views but I don't feel far enough along to back up or critique any of them, or reconcile them for myself.
BR549
(11/4/01; 22:08:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 64723)
How this for a record!
auspec-
The BIG Unit won both games 6 and 7. What a Series!
2nd Guessers, Inc.---Mariano should have been pulled in the 9th. A 0.61 ERA but nothing when it counted tonight.
Regards,
BR549
auspec
(11/4/01; 21:32:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 64722)
Howe About Those Snakes!!!
If the D-Backs can do it, so can Reg!
auspec
(11/4/01; 20:58:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 64721)
Howe Convenient
From Robert Chapman:
"Rumor is that in the tragedy of the WTC on 9/11/01 that important papers in the case against Mobil Oil and James Geffen on illegal oil swaps between Iran and Kazakhstan, which was ready for the Grand Jury, were destroyed as was the evidence in the investigation of Gold Price Fixing stemming from Reg Howe's lawsuit brought against the gold manipulation cartel, which includes the FED, Treasury, BIS, and the bullion houses of Goldman Sachs, Citigroup, J. P. Morgan Chase and Deutsche Bank." END
Comment: Unnecessary. Reg gets his day in 'court' tomorrow, may the marsupials not show up.
Netking
(11/4/01; 20:25:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 64720)
Stool Pigeons
http://www.contraryinvestor.com/mo.htm
Contrary Investor
Pandagold
(11/4/01; 20:25:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 64719)
White Hills and the 'why'
White hills The why often leads you to the who. Doesn't the detective always look for the motive (reason) when he has a crime puzzle? Even when a man has admitted to a crime, it has been found by some concerned officer who asked himself 'why'then found there was nothing to substantiate the admittance of guilt, discovered later that the person did not do it.
It is because of the 'why' that I am not convinced by a long way that Bin Laden was responsible for Sept11. But lets leave it at that, who am I against the US government, the British government, all the media and most of the brainwashed public.
I've said enough, and its time for bed.
Trurl
(11/4/01; 20:15:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 64718)
gold money market account
It's hard to find much financial advice that doesn't upset a PGA's convictions. I've really tried hard, but can't get too interested or excited about most conventional stock or bond investments now. Stocks likely have a ways to fall before reaching a ‘fair value’. With interest rates dropping, bonds are gaining capital appreciation now, but problems will occur when rates rise.
Here is something I've done which might be of interest to others: I've created my own money market fund. Instead of buying FRN based notes or T-Bills, I put the proceeds into Au and Ag coins. I've structured most of this with money that I shouldn't need for several years at least, so I'm not too worried about the round-trip transaction costs. With the POG and POS being what they are, I'm not overly concerned about dramatic future price drops.
Thus I have assets which in a normal environment ( whatever that is ) should go up at least at the rate of inflation. If I have great need of money, I can easily and immediately convert a small or large portion to FRNs to do transactions. If any of us can read the future, there is a good chance that these assets will largely decouple from the US dollar, most likely with the dollar dropping. I am willing to give up a nominal 2.37% APR taxable interest income( in a 3%+ inflationary environment ) to possibly benefit from this.
Certainly most people reading this board have bought PM coins. What I'm suggesting is mostly a change in intent or state of mind, and not necessarily changing actions. Contemplate what you would do in a high inflation environment. Likely you would shepherd most of your assets in PM resources which would shield you from inflation, and only exchange these assets for FRNs as needed.
If the FOA dollar decline/hyper-inflation scenerio comes to pass, we will ALL be doing this anyways. I'll observe most American's don't have much experience in doing currency conversions or relative value pricing in their head. Might as well get practice now.
Economists will debate what the current low interest rate environment means, but one obvious thing is that you are losing money anyways after taxes if you keep too much in a conventional FRN based money market account. Certainly current rates are easy to forgo for the benefits of actual possession of assets, other tax related benefits, and participation in any PM bull market.
Certainly none of this is financial advice; just things to think about.
Pandagold
(11/4/01; 20:03:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 64717)
Auspec May this help a little
Auspec: The book I have mentioned "Secrets of the Temple" mentions, at some length the 'secret' meeting at Jekyll Island (an appropriate name, it seems) where they hatched the Aldrich plan. It was a clandestine meeting to work out some form of reforming the Feds structure. some of the banks represented were - National City (now Citybank) Morgan Bank and Kuhn Loeb.
Apparently this sparked a lot of conspiracy theories, and there is a lot of grey mist in this area.
As I said, or inferred, at the end of that first post, don't get involved into too much detail - it's all structured so you can't get at the real facts.
It is said that this world is run by about three families, who maintain a very low profile. At one time the Rothschild's were THE name in banking. The name came under a lot of attention especially as in those days, before the second world war, anti-semitism was rife in Europe. So they played down their role in international banking.
It was nothing to do with religion, or of ordinary Jewish people, though they often received much of the physical attention. It was caused by the power these bankers had, and how they used it to accumulate greater wealth, by their interference in politics, economics, and the financial markets, to bring about events from which they would profit, regardless of the misery it may cause.
Wars, for instance provided great opportunities for loans - and banking is only money lending. Things haven't really changed have they?
I am almost certain that the Rothschilds are one of those families, and probably sit at the head of the table.
They certainly control the gold market, and he who has the gold makes the rules.
This is why I do not concern myself about who is President, or Prime minister, or which party is 'in power'. The real government is the one you don't get to elect, and it wins no matter who you vote for.
Once again He who has the gold makes the rules.
Smile and be happy. If you want to join the big boys, get some au. The Rothschilds started by trading gold coins in Frankfurt (and a bit of money lending on the side).
His big clean up came after the battle of Waterloo. He had got news of Wellington's victory before it reached the newsrooms of England. He walked into the London stock market and told everyone that Wellington had lost the battle. He then started to sell some of his holdings which started a panic selling. As the rest sold, he secretly bought. As I said, things don't change.
And one more time He who has the gold makes the rules
It's as simple as that.
White Hills
(11/4/01; 19:39:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 64716)
Pandagold
Thanks for your reply to my post. I respect your opinion but you did not address the analysis in ORO's post and the points he made. I realize the gulf that exists between the Western world and the ME and probabily things will get much worse. However, as an American my first reaction to the terrorist action is not WHY but WHO. My next reaction is to eliminate the WHO and later on maybe ask WHY. White Hills
megatron
(11/4/01; 19:32:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 64715)
Tick tock tick tock.....
I wonder what Alan 'Goebelspan' is deluding himself about tonight? Shorting more gold shares in his offshore accounts? Mumbling into a secured link at his lackeys in Hong Kong and London? Poking pins into dolls of Ayn Rand?
Nothing surprises me anymore. It must be sad to be consumed by delusion.
Canuck
(11/4/01; 19:27:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 64714)
The Euro test!
http://news6.thdo.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/business/2001/euro_cash/quiz.asp
Test your knowledge of the EURO.
auspec
(11/4/01; 19:21:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 64713)
Buena Fe/BR549
Buena Fe: MacArthur did promise to return, no?
BR- Thanks for the cross-pollination/contamination.
Leigh
(11/4/01; 19:15:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 64712)
*****Best of the Gold Trail...Msg. 117*****
This simple thinker, though appreciative of Trail Guide's efforts to educate us in economic theory and world economic practice, has an eye on her own little portfolio. How can it be adjusted to guard her family's small wealth now and in the future? That is why when each Gold Trail message comes out, I click over and search for clues. Message 117, which contains answers to questions from MK, gives a number of practical hints:
"The leverage today will be in a physical gold position, not any other form of gold ownership. By accumulating gold today, we are truly walking in the footsteps of giants, advancing with them as they work thru this singular, long term political move."
"While a U.S. physical gold free market will be locally encouraged, it will most likely simply be a shadow function of Euro Gold practices."
"I also expect a European gold coin to become real usable legal tender (not a collector item) and be named the 'EuroLand.'"
"A U.S. workout to cover its failed paper gold position will most likely be using gold industry profits. It could be done via 'windfall tax legislation,' plain tax or part of any variety of emergency financial arrangement. All built in order to allow our current gold reserves to be repriced at higher world levels and help our dollar stay somewhere in the next currency system. Considering the size of the failure, real gold will outperform any and all investments once this all gets started. However, we should not be naive and not expect some serious taxes of our own on bullion sales. Still, only just enough so as to keep currency tender protected from being supplanted with illegal gold use. Illegal in that too high a rate and everyone would use gold in barter and stop paying their capital gains taxes all together."
-----
Thanks, Trail Guide, for your generous sharing of knowledge. Yes, Gold is Good.
Ten Bears
(11/4/01; 19:07:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 64711)
another book worth reading
Secrets of the Federal Reserve, by Eustace Mullins,published in the early 1950's.
auspec
(11/4/01; 18:58:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 64710)
Pandagold/Canuck
Fed
Your input has pretty much described the structure and function of the Federal Reserve Bank. What I remember reading, and can't seem to put my hands on right now, is that the Fed itself is owned by approx 12 banking entities. The names that come out of the depths of my memory are Chase Manhattan, Morgan Guarantee, Rothschilds, and Kuhn-Loeb{?}. Somewhat fuzzy, however.
Canuck is reading the Creature From Jeckyll Island, maybe the information is in there?
It is NOT a 'Federal' entity, being totally privately owned, unlike your 'nationalized' BoE. Neither is it a 'Reserve', but a totally fractionalized system.
This is clearly a worthwhile project in itself as we should know who is behind our CB!
Thanks!
BR549
(11/4/01; 18:51:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 64709)
Bank of England-Mostly run by banksters and eggheads (oh, did I mention the Goldman Sachs guy?)
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/Links/setframe.html
@auspec---
Here is some of your cross pollination that you are looking for at the B of E. and other CB's.
Of their Monetary Policy Committee, only two out of nine members have ever held real jobs outside of the academic and/or BoE career environment. No entrpreneurs. None have ever done anything except feed at an organization trough (no business people) except for a short stint of Barker's at Ford in the US. Wadhwani has a background with guess who? Goldman Sachs—Yes the same Goldman that is involved with the Bank of Argentina and the U.S. Fed. How about that???
Christopher Allsopp-Background Bureacrat In Treas. Dept and then B o E.
Kate Barker-7 yrs CBI and trained FoMoCo-USA w/Academics research prior
Charles Richard Bean-Bureacrat HM Treas. Prior in Academics Research
David Clementi-Before BoE- was at Kleinwort Benson for 22 yrs.
The Rt Hon Sir Edward George-Joined B o E out of college; only job
Mervyn Allister King- Joined B o E out of college; only job
Stephen Nickell-Academics background; p/t at B of E
Ian Plenderleith- Joined B o E out of college; only job
Dr Sushil Wadhwani- Director of Research at Tudor Proprietary Trading LLC, a fund management company. Prior Equity Strategy at Goldman Sachs International (1991-95)
The link for the previous posts about the U.S. Fed is: http://federalreserve.gov/bios/ in case you need the link not provided.
Regards,
BR549
714
(11/4/01; 18:48:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 64708)
Mr Gresham...
...to the best of my knowledge, there's never been a time when interest rates were falling in which gold prices rose. There may be an odd exception or two, but that's a good rule of thumb.
As for gold in a deflation, the issue that comes to my mind is what will people, or institutions, purchase gold with? Cash is short in such a time, and there is a general reluctance to lend or borrow in such times too. And though gold retains certain monetary qualities, as evidenced by the continuing existence of CB reserves and (a now diminished) carry trade, it is no longer a currency, at least in the West, and thus seldom used in commercial transactions (outside the diminished carry trade and forward sales/derivatives).
Gold will shine, for Americans, when the US$ goes south, which it WILL do at some point in time, and interest rates rise again in defense of the currency. What happens then is anybody's guess.
Salaam.
Buena Fe
(11/4/01; 18:44:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 64707)
rumblings on the Trail
Is this a "coming out" announcment?
-------------------------------------
Our future is today; if not just around the trail!
Sir Douglas; aka FOA
your: Gold - Trail - Guide
-------------------------------------
It seems to me that FOA has been trying to convey, over the last several weeks, an impending acceleration of monetary events that will thoroughly affirm/establish his portrayal of the prevailing "political will" operating just out of view of most Americans. Time will obviously tell. Any speculation on the identity of "Sir Douglas".
(no disrespect intended)
tedw
(11/4/01; 18:29:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 64706)
Thanks
Tg
Thank you for the compliment. I will try and live up to your image of having a bible in one hand and a gun in the other.
BTW,I have to confess I have a bumper sticker which says
"Love your enemy,but keep your gun oiled"
All the best
Tedw
Pandagold
(11/4/01; 18:28:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 64705)
A book worth reading
A book worth reading for those interested is "Secrets of the Temple" by William Greider It was on the NY Times Best Sellers List and first published (I think) in 1987
It tells of the goings on inside the US Federal Reserve
There are some interesting sections on Gold. It mentions that about 40% of the world's gold is held in its vaults five stories below street level - not all US owned, of course.
BR549
(11/04/01; 18:15:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 64704)
tg (msg#: 64695)---"And from other posts you give the appearance of being a murderer."
You posted that to tedw? IMHO—a new all time low.
BTW-Unless you are the real TG (TrailGuide), I would suggest you getting an original handle.
Pandagold
(11/04/01; 18:14:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 64703)
auspec
What is the Federal Reserve System?
The Federal Reserve System, also known as the Fed, is the central bank of the United States. It was founded by Congress in 1913 to provide the nation with a safer, more flexible, and more stable monetary and financial system; over the years, its role in banking and the economy has expanded. Today, the Federal Reserve's duties fall into four general areas:
Conducting the nation's monetary policy by influencing the money and credit conditions in the economy in pursuit of full employment and stable prices
Supervising and regulating banking institutions to ensure the safety and soundness of the nation's banking and financial system and to protect the credit rights of consumers
Maintaining the stability of the financial system and containing systemic risk that may arise in financial markets
Providing certain financial services to the U.S. government, to the public, to financial institutions, and to foreign official institutions, including playing a major role in operating the nation's payments system.
This information, along with a complete overview of the Federal Reserve, can be found in The Federal Reserve System Purposes & Functions, published by the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System.
How is the Fed Structured?
The Federal Reserve System is composed of the Board of Governors and twelve regional Reserve Banks.
A major component of the System is the Federal Open Market Committee (FOMC), which is made up of the Board of Governors, the president of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, and presidents of four other Federal Reserve Banks, who serve on a rotating basis. The FOMC oversees open market operations, which is the main tool used by the Federal Reserve to influence money market conditions and the growth of money and credit.
Two other groups play roles in the way the Federal Reserve System works: depository institutions, through which the tools of monetary policy operate, and advisory committees, which make recommendations to the Board of Governors and to the Reserve Banks regarding the System's responsibilities.
Who owns the Federal Reserve Banks?
Member banks must subscribe to stock in their regional Federal Reserve Bank in an amount equal to 3 percent of their capital and surplus. The holding of this stock, however, does not carry with it the control and financial interest conveyed to holders of common stock in for-profit organizations: It is merely a legal obligation that goes along with membership, and the stock may not be sold or pledged as collateral for loans. Member banks receive a 6 percent dividend annually on their stock, as specified by law, and vote for the Class A and Class B directors (see The Federal Reserve System Purposes & Functions for a description of the different classes of Reserve Bank directors) of the Reserve Bank. The stock is not available for purchase by individuals.
From what sources does the Federal Reserve derive its income?
The income of the Federal Reserve System is derived primarily from the interest on U.S. government securities that it has acquired through open market operations. Other major sources of income are the interest on foreign currency investments held by the System; interest on loans to depository institutions (the rate on which is the so-called discount rate); and fees received for services provided to depository institutions, such as check clearing, funds transfers, and automated clearinghouse operations.
After it pays its expenses, the Federal Reserve turns the rest of its earnings over to the U.S. Treasury. About 95 percent of the Reserve Banks’ net earnings have been paid into the Treasury since the Federal Reserve System began operations in 1914. (Income and expenses of the Federal Reserve Banks from 1914 to the present are included in the Annual Report of the Board of Governors.) If a Reserve Bank were liquidated for any reason, all proceeds after the payment of bills would also be turned over to the Treasury.
Since the Federal Reserve has considerable discretion in carrying out its responsibilities, to whom is it accountable?
The Federal Reserve System is ultimately accountable to Congress, which at any time can amend the Federal Reserve Act. Passed in 1913, this is the federal legislation that established the Federal Reserve System. Legislation requires the Federal Reserve to report annually on its activities to the Speaker of the House of Representatives; and twice a year to the Banking Committees of Congress on its plans for monetary policy. The Federal Reserve also testifies before Congress when requested. Testimony is available from the Federal Reserve Board of Governors.
To ensure financial accountability, Reserve Banks are audited by the Board of Governors, which in turn is audited by a private accounting firm. Also, the General Accounting Office (GAO) can audit certain Federal Reserve operations.
Netking
(11/4/01; 18:11:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 64702)
Derivatives focus (to increase) at JP Morgan Chase
This from Bloomberg;
"JP Morgan Chase & Co, the second-largest US bank, is reorganising its institutional equities group to emphasise derivatives, which are bringing in more profit than initial public offerings. The bank will reduce seven equities divisions to five and include corporate derivatives marketing in an expanded global equities capital markets group, according to a memo from the head of institutional equities, Mr Steve Black. Institutional equities, which is part of JP Morgan Chase's investment bank, will be divided into three regional groups - Asia, Europe and the Americas - plus global groups for equity research and equity capital markets. Bloomberg"
Pandagold
(11/4/01; 17:58:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 64701)
Auspec: US Federal Reserve Bank
auspec: Is this what you are looking for:
US Federal Reserve Bank
Members of the Board of Governors
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Current Members
Alan Greenspan,
Chairman
Roger W. Ferguson, Jr.
Vice Chairman
Edward W. Kelley, Jr.
Laurence H. Meyer
Edward M. Gramlich
Vacancy
Vacancy
-The seven members of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System are nominated by the President and confirmed by the Senate (see list at left for current membership). A full term is fourteen years. One term begins every two years, on February 1 of even-numbered years. A member who serves a full term may not be reappointed. A member who completes an unexpired portion of a term may be reappointed. All terms end on their statutory date regardless of the date on which the member is sworn into office.
The Chairman and the Vice Chairman of the Board are named by the President from among the members and are confirmed by the Senate. They serve a term of four years. A member's term on the Board is not affected by his or her status as Chairman or Vice Chairman.
Mr Gresham
(11/4/01; 17:45:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 64700)
Droke on the "la-la"s
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_01/droke110301.html
714: "And a falling interest rate environment does not bode well for higher gold prices in the near term."
I have to come back to the question of debt as a contract heading for fulfillment, vs. in a time of general default. In a time of major defaults, just as in bad corporate earnings announcements (9-11 period, for example), won't many major debtors take the plunge together? Lining up for debt absolution (or workouts -- think Argentina's offer this week) will be much easier taken in company with others of formerly high prestige. Jobs (their own) will be saved. Shame lessened, in large company.
In a general climate of default, what will be the incentive to further meet debt obligations? It can only be seen as a part of an overall business strategy, to be among the established players when recovery rolls around. Otherwise, isn't this what Corporations were formed for? To be the mobile -- and sometimes dispensable -- vehicles of capital (and access to Other People's Money) for the greater interests of the individuals behind them?
In a time of deflation, yes, cash is squeezed, and life necessities will be the first purchases. (Just which gold-holders, though, are likely to be also debtors in need of selling their gold reserves to meet payments? -- unlikely I think.) But for liquid capital, will banks or money market funds be the preference, at such low interest rates? And after the first round of FDIC rescues, or MMF's "breaking a buck"?
Gold would not receive the bulk of the new money created by the Fed, but it doesn't have to. It receives an unprecedented portion of liquid capital that is freed up to await deployment to pick up assets at the bottom.
Droke (who doubts FOA's hyperinflation) says: "Will Fed pump priming lead to hyper-inflation? In our opinion, it is doubtful in the highest. Remember, inflation is defined as the excess of the available supply of money over and above underlying demand. Just because the rate of money creation, and for that matter, the rate of change of money creation is increasing at an exponential rate does not necessarily translate to inflation. As long as there is a vociferous demand for that money, it's not inflation. Is there a tremendous demand for money in the financial markets/economy today? I think we both know the answer to that is a resounding YES!!! As long as Wall Street clamors for cash in a futile effort to fill the deflationary vortex it helped create, the Fed will do its best to accommodate. But not even the mighty Fed will succeed in filling this vast cavity. This is why we say inflation is all but impossible in the current economic environment..."
"So whatever impoverishes the public this time around won't have anything to do with bank and S&L collapses, but with something else, namely credit, equity, and real estate collapse. Has this already begun? Yes. Will it continue? Yes. "
But, he's writing on a gold forum, so he must believe that gold is headed upward.
His most useful, but perhaps contradictory to the first, paragraph follows: "Do we think the dollar will survive and actually appreciate in value over the next few years of runaway deflation? Sure. And it should actually do quite well in the initial stages of deflation...that is, until things really get out of hand and the entire debt system implodes. As for Fed money creation, keep in mind that in terms of actual dollars very few of these will actually reach the hands of those who really need them, namely, the general public. The Fed can turn up its spigots as much as they want, but it will only serve to liquefy the downside for the sellers. Also, much of this money is "emergency" money used to try to salvage disastrous situations on the part of financial institutions, corporations, etc., many of whom are in deep trouble. As long as there is a giant hole to fill (a deflationary vortex in the financial/economic system) it can't be called inflation until the hole actually gets filled - and then over-filled. We aren't anywhere near that happening yet."
He is pointing out, as I have not seen elsewhere, the _Targeting_ of the newly-created money. (In other words, it won't be there for you and me, brother. We'd better save ours up now!) It will be passed through to those institutions who are to be on board the "lifeboats" into the recovery.
A corollary to his paragraph above then should be that: It does not require inflation to "spill over" in general quantity from the Fed rescue efforts for gold to start its spike. All it requires is players with ANY freed-up cash (while others next to them are still sinking down the vortex) to begin deploying it to PMs.
Again: (The dollar)"should actually do quite well in the initial stages of deflation...that is, until things really get out of hand and the entire debt system implodes. "
I think what I would question of Droke, and what FOA would assert strongly, is that there is going to be almost NO interval during which the Dollar might enjoy its peak of deflationary glory, but that almost immediately are DEFAULTS of one sort or another (reserve currency status, paper gold markets, corporate credit markets, mortgage markets) going to drop that demand for the dollar like a stone.
Or, at least, drop it relative to other things that we here are interested in.
If debtors very quickly get the picture that it's going down, and there is little room in the lifeboats for them even if they valiantly strive to make their payments, then the debt dominoes will fall swiftly, and those creditors who manage to grab cash out of the slide, will hold it in real assets rather than newly-purchased paper.
This is how gold advances as a result of deflation -- when deflation drives too hard, and becomes widespread default. How close we are to that, is the measure we should be taking in the year ahead.
auspec
(11/4/01; 17:13:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 64699)
Pandagold
From your post #64694: "What is more important than 'owning' is controlling. Such is the 'network' of TPTB today that they now 'control' by fair means or foul ALL central banks of note (and not so 'of note') save possibly 'The Bank of China (Mainland). This excludes Hong Kong and Shangahi Bank." END
Thank you Sir, I was checking out the trees and overlooking the forest. I still have not been able to locate the list of Fed owners which is most illuminating {smile]. China certainly does seem the wild card, but one with much Brit influence.
Regards
Mr Gresham
(11/4/01; 17:00:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 64698)
Ready for a laugh?
http://www.ifilm.com/ifilm/product/film_info/0,3699,1388896,00.html?movie=/ifilm/media/1,3943,,FF.html?fid=1388896&mt=asf&bw=56&refsite=1781&mid=2&it=1&rcid=1658&pop=1&prn=1
The Sopranowitzes.
(I'm just catching up with the first season, on videotape, so it's got me de-toxing my nerve endings -- ah, that means, yes, laughing. You guys better practice for those hap-hap-happy days ahead of us. Snarf, snarf...)
(you DID get that GWBush/Colin Powell/bin Laden calypso one last week, didn't you?)
slingshot
(11/4/01; 16:59:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 64697)
Euro, Chevornet and the US Dollar
The time that I have been outside the USA even without exchanging US dollars at that countrys bank for whatever currency( Pesatas, Lira etc.),the dollar was always accepted for any purchase. That is not the case in the USA. It has always been USA dollars to purchase items. Now that the dollar is headed for the toilet with THE BIG FLOAT, will Americans be willing to accept Euros or Russian Chevornets being back by Gold, for payment in the future. If this were possible I do not think the American people would even think of redeaming it for physical. They would just change from one paper/coin to another. I believe that at this Time the Euro and Chevonet will be circulated only in the EU and Russia. But what an influence it would be on the USA if those currencies circulated in the USA as the dollar has done around the world.
Turnabout is fair play?
Just another reason to own GOLD?
Slingshot
Pandagold
(11/4/01; 16:52:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 64696)
Mr Gresham, Belgian tg et al
Thank you sirs for your comments. It is very difficult to divorce oneself from current political events when dealing in any part of the financial world. They are so interrelated.
It is particularly more difficult at present because of what has just happened, and the uncertainties we are facing.
I am so pleased that our providers of this facility appear to have understood this and have allowed us posters a fair amount of latitude of late.
The problems occur when we allow ourselves to get over emotional, because this clouds our judgement.
Emotion also stops a rational assessment of a situation, and we get things out of perspective. Media know this only too well, and media serves a particular interest. They bend our minds (or attempt to) with many techniques both direct and indirect.
However, though I may touch on the political climate occasionally, I will endeavour to keep it tempered, hopefully, to provide some balance to a comment or argument.
But, I hope that most of my posts will be gold related, which is a subject dear to my heart, and has all the excitement that a man needs.
Thank you once again
Panda
tg
(11/4/01; 16:38:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 64695)
tedw
tedw - you really baffle me.
From your prior posts, you give the appearance of being a Christian. Am i right??
And from other posts you give the appearance of being a murderer.
I have this image of you with a bible in one hand and a gun in the other.
Nuke em all?? Lets think about it first cowboy
Pandagold
(11/4/01; 16:15:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 64694)
Auspec The Old Lady of Threadneedle Street,
Auspec: Hope you find your answer here: It started of as a private institution, but, in 1946 was nationalised (Owned by government)
Bank of England
Bank of England, central bank and note-issuing institution of Great Britain. Popularly known as the Old Lady of Threadneedle Street, its main office stands on the street of that name in London. The bank has eight branches, all of which are located in the British Isles. Although Bank of England notes are legal tender throughout the United Kingdom, banks in Scotland and Northern Ireland also issue notes that may be either used as currency themselves or exchanged for Bank of England issues. In all matters beside note issue, the Bank of England has sole central banking functions in Great Britain. The affairs of the bank are controlled by a governor, a deputy, and 16 directors.
It was founded (1694) as a commercial bank by William Paterson with a capital of £1.2 million, which was advanced to the government in return for banking privileges, including the right to issue notes up to the amount of its capital. In 1709 the capital was doubled; the charter was renewed in 1742, 1764, and 1781.
The bank's facilities proved a great asset in English commercial, and later industrial, expansion. The bank's functions were both public and private; it safeguarded the English pound and also operated for private profit. Efficient regulation was assured by the Bank Charter Act of 1844, which laid the basis for the bank's modern structure. The issue department, which handles the issuing of bank notes for general circulation, was separated from the banking department, which handles the remaining banking functions, including the management of the public debt, and serves as the depository of government funds and as the staple bank of England.
It was privately owned until 1946, when an act of Parliament provided for its nationalization.
The stockholders were compensated, and the bank subsequently dropped virtually all its private business. In 1997 the bank was given the power to set interest rates, a function formerly performed by the cabinet; at the same time its oversight of the British banking industry was transferred to the Securities and Investments Board
See J. H. Clapham, The Bank of England: A History (2 vol., 1944; repr. 1966); J. Giuseppi, The Bank of England (1966).
What is more important than 'owning' is controlling. Such is the 'network' of TPTB today that they now 'control' by fair means or foul ALL central banks of note (and not so 'of note') save possibly 'The Bank of China (Mainland). This excludes Hong Kong and Shangahi Bank.
But when a country needs to borrow money, and owes money, and which don't, and you control the money lending institutions.......are you catching on, Sir Knight? Good, then I don't need to say any more.
Once again everybody - 'They who have the gold make the rules'
BR549
(11/4/01; 16:08:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 64693)
CB's that own Euro's
Belgian-"There is no sign of dollar hostility/aversion, in Europ ! Probably, because we have to get rid of the dollar in a very discrete and smooth fashion, individually and officially ?"
I agree that Europeans are very smooth. The demise of the dollar are rise of the Euro will coincide with the accumulation of Euro's coinciding with the relacement of FRN's in the Balance Sheets/Financial Statements of the world's central banks.
So far, no accumulation of Euro's in non G-7 CB's yet, is there? Also the IMF and BIS deals exclusively in dollars.
Regards,
BR549
BR549
(11/4/01; 15:48:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 64692)
The manipulators behind the Bank of England
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/Links/setframe.html
Monetary Policy Committee Members similar to US Fed Board of Governors.
Mr Christopher Allsopp
Kate Barker
Mr Charles Bean
Mr David Clementi
The Rt Hon Sir Edward George
Mr Mervyn King
Prof. Steve Nickell
Mr Ian Plenderleith
Dr Sushil Wadhwani
Governors and Directors
Governor
The Rt Hon Sir Edward George
Deputy Governors
Mr David Clementi
Mr Mervyn King
Directors
Executive
Mr Charles Bean
Mr Alastair Clark
Mr Ian Plenderleith
Adviser to the Governors
Mr Richard Brealey
Alphabetical order by Surname
Mr Christopher Allsopp
Kate Barker
Mr Charles Bean
Mr Richard Brealey
Mr Alastair Clark
Mr David Clementi
The Rt Hon Sir Edward George
Mr Mervyn King
Prof. Steve Nickell
Mr Ian Plenderleith
Dr Sushil Wadhwani
Their resumes can be found on the link.
Who really runs (or owns) the bank? Who knows? The "shadow" maybe?
BR549
slingshot
(11/4/01; 15:27:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 64691)
Piddily Report
Visiting the local Swap Markets in the area confirmed the price increase being past on to the consumer of Silver.
Coin dealers price was $5.75 and the price at the swap market was $6.00 to $6.25 depending who was the seller.
Silver dollars Peace common dates very good to fine jumped from $10.50 to $14.00. All repackaged of course.
Editors note: I was buying Peace Silver dollars at those grades for $8.00 not so long ago.
Piddily Report, All the News so Piddily others don"t print it.
BR549
(11/4/01; 15:20:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 64690)
An Honest CB?? Like finding a nugget among the fool's Gold
auspec (msg#: 64677)---"An Honest CB?? I really do not know, but think we are on parallel trails; you're looking for an honest CB and I'm looking for overlapping/intertwining ownership of various CB's. The more overlapping we discover, the less likelihood of 'honesty' being present. It does not look like ORO is going to address my questions about who owns the various CBs, so I will simply have to keep seeking these answers. Really can't say that I blame him. Part of the reason that a united ECB is transpiring is that these various countries were already intermingled in ownership of various 'independent' CBs, imho. Not that much of a stretch for consolidation In the distant past, Switzerland might have been a good answer for your question as far as maintaining sound currency, at least. Honesty is another issue altogether and I would not toss that term in their direction. Neither would many holocaust 'heirs' of confiscated gold. You may receive a deafening silence in search of Mr. GoodBank."
BR-Good points! I have also been anticipating a response from ORO that you previously requested. When he is finished with POO, then maybe he'll find time.
I wish I would have read your post before I posted my Bank of India CB. I think that you and others may have a point that the words "honest" can never be an adjective describing anything to do with a "bank" or "Central Bank". I figured that out when I started answering my own questions in my last post. I have found evidence that RR has been involved in the Bank of Argentina's demise, and his fingerprints all over the Bank of England, and of course, we all know about the Fed. (He was invited and attended one the previous FOMC meetings for what reason?) .
Interstate—While I agree that the entire financial system is corrupt, I think that there must be some country out there somewhere that regulates its CB for the benefit of its people. When you read the WEB at Bank of India, you quite a different flavor than when you read the Bank of Argentina. I agree that Honest" was a bad term to describe them but there are only two possible paths available:
1. ALL CB's are innately corrupt and the abuses are a worldwide conspiracy problem. (OR)
2. There are some CB's that are not buying into the world conspiracy and work for the benefit of their people.
I think that the evidence will lead strongly to Theory #1.
But I have found in my research about derivatives, the price fixing of Gold, and other abuses such as short selling of Gold to dull volatility, and the utilization of insider information for the few to make tremendous profits and the expense of the many non-insiders, that it is indeed a world wide problem. When I first posted this theory here, my idea was not exactly received with a ticker tape parade.
One last point and then I will shut up—with all of the problems that I have found in the manipulations of Gold and derivatives by the Bank of England, I don't see how some British based posters have time to "blast" the U.S. Federal Reserve (although it needs blasting). Let's hear some more about those crooked SOB's that run the BoE. Or any of the other G-7 and the rest.
Regards,
BR549
Galearis
(11/4/01; 15:18:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 64689)
@Netking
(smile)
You said:
One or two of my relations are thinking more of me as "smart" and less of me as a "PM nut" after events of recent months, they'll be buying themselves soon.
+++++++++++++++
Must be a cultural difference or time "zoned" phenominon. (grin) My relations still think I am a "nut", ignore the pm question entirely, and are "still caught in the headlights"
(loved that analogy!) vis-a-vis their shrinking returns on the markets - and are a little resentful when what I say comes to pass. May have something to do with me telling them they are going to get creamed, but not to consider this investment advice.
(smile)
Regards,
G.
Belgian
(11/4/01; 15:10:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 64688)
@ Pandagold (off topic)
Sir,
I do consider you a man of the world, having the courage to express some peacefull wisdom (not always gold related) on this forum. Congratulations !
auspec
(11/4/01; 15:09:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 64687)
Sir Belgian/Pandagold
Maybe we can take this CB question 1 step/country at a time. Do you know WHO owns the Belgian CB, and how does this ownership become integrated into the ECB?
Same question to you Pandagold in reference to the BoE. I have seen the list of the 12 or so entities that form the ownership of our own FED and have NO doubt there will be overlapping ownershiop with many other CBs. Is this not a most {too} pertinent question?
Mr Gresham
(11/4/01; 15:07:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 64686)
Panda
You hit it -- R-E-S-P-E-C-T -- so cheap to give it, so expensive when years of omitting it come back to bite you.
I've sat in front of a mosque in West Africa and shared a bowl of rice with a man who lost his fingers to leprosy. (I had just missed the roadside ditches littered with the dead and dying during the famine in the Sahel.)
I've been welcomed under the roofs of the poorest people in the world. I've also been hungry (really, very mildly) for a couple brief intervals. It doesn't take much to educate oneself in the reality of "There but for my good fortune go I."
But Americans have raised a nation of "hothouse plants" who make a beeline for comfort, and who, conversely, will walk miles out of their way to avoid the unpleasant realities of others' lives. (Whether or not they know they've contributed to those miseries is a further question.)
One must actively seek the experience of others' position, refuse to take the "guided tour" offered most White people in this world, and join the rest of humanity in some of its ups and downs.
You don't have to wallow in it, martyr yourself, or have a miserable life. You just need to learn Respect, and then do what Respect demands of you.
Belgian
(11/4/01; 14:53:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 64685)
@ BR549 Honest CBs ?
Good idea to bring this up.
I want to bring this back to the basics : what are the sheeple demanding from the ones they supposed to have elected ? Prosperity as much and as fast as possible and with the least of efforts. The easiest way to obtain, instant result is in depreciating the currency as fast as possible. Something like, not having one cent in your pocket and getting a loan for your house on the basis of having a job at present. You surely get the picture.
What I learned from TG, together with critical re-observation of EMU (by myself), is that EMU, with its outspoken stability management, is showing evidence of trying to be honest. A lesson from the debacle of previous competing floating currencies, falsifying competition and policies.
The vast amounts of accumulated euro-dollars in reserve, are standing in the way to these honest efforts, for achieving full independance of the increasingly, value-falsified dollar. An elegant solution to get rid of this historic dollar-burden is on the order of the day. And for this reason, Gold is managed to come back into a more free and honest way.
It is still amazing to me that I had to find TG's theory, accidently, on a US forum and Golddealer CPM. There is no sign of dollar hostility/aversion, in Europ ! Probably, because we have to get rid of the dollar in a very discrete and smooth fashion, individually and officially ?
Just a thought with more than enough doubts. Time will tell.
BR549
(11/4/01; 14:53:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 64684)
goldenpeace (msg#: 64667)—" Honest CB?...Would India qualify?"
http://www.rbi.org.in/index.dll/22900?OpenStory?fromdate=08/28/01&todate=08/28/01&s1secid=0&s2secid=0&secid=3/0/0&archivemode=0
Yes, goldenpeace BoI gets an overall passing grade.
When I say "honest" I mean a non-manipulative policy for the benefit of the citizens rather than member banksters. Also I look for well intentioned and from CB web sites (most have one) you get a flavor of where the CB heart is (although I admit that most of the time you never know what is going on beyond the CB PR department)
Of course the statistics for India's CB are not up to date, the finances of an emerging nation does not compare with the G-7 industrialized nations. Gold is used more in manufacturing than in wealth accumulation.
India's largest problems are earthquakes, floods, tornados, and agricultural failures. The focus is on feeding their massive population rather than mani;ulating their finances.
It seems from their published goals and objectives that their heart is in the right place:
"A crucial element of the ongoing financial sector reforms is the development of various segments of financial markets, strengthening the inter-linkages among various segments, introducing sophistication in market practices and products and building the technological infrastructure for the efficient functioning of markets. In the recent period, the focus of policy measures has been on enhancing the stability of financial markets by developing internal rules for healthy market activity, strengthening prudential and supervisory norms and redefining the regulatory role of the Reserve Bank in the context of financial markets. The amendments to the Securities Contract (Regulation) Act, 1956, which were brought into effect in March 2000, represent an important milestone in the appropriate assignment of regulatory authority over the financial markets. These amendments establish the jurisdiction of the Reserve Bank over transactions in Government securities, money market securities, gold related securities, derivatives based on these securities as also ready forward contracts in debt securities, in conjunction with the Reserve Bank's regulation of foreign exchange transactions under the Foreign Exchange Regulation Act, 1973 and later by the Foreign Exchange Management Act, 1999."
BR-As all CB's have their derivatives and paper gold but BoI seem to want to regulate the abuses.
"1.52 The Reserve Bank announced fresh norms on the concept of ‘capital funds’, measurement of credit exposures and level of exposure limits to individuals/group borrowers. The exposure ceiling for commercial banks in respect of individual borrowers is scheduled to be reduced from 20 per cent to 15 per cent of capital funds in March 31, 2002. With effect from April 1, 2003, the non-fund based exposure is to be reckoned at 100 per cent and banks are required to include forward contracts and other derivatives in determining individual/group exposure.
India's foreign exchange reserves comprising foreign currency assets, gold held by the Reserve Bank and Special Drawing Rights (SDRs) held by the Government increased by US $ 4,245 million (including valuation changes) during 2000-01 to US $ 42,281 million by end-March 2001 as against an increase of US $ 5,546 million during 1999-2000. The Reserve Bank's forward liabilities remained low, declining from US $ 2,225 million in August 2000 to US $ 1,259 million at end-March 2001. Net of outstanding forward liabilities and use of IMF credit, foreign exchange reserves increased by US $ 3,687 million to US $ 41,022 million as at end-March 2001."
I am looking for a CB that-
does not sell Gold from its treasury—no evidence found
does not lease Gold from its treasury—no evidence found
does not conspire to drive the POG down by selling it short—no evidence found
does not gamble a significant percentage of its assets on derivatives—does deal in derivatives but tries to regulate exposure
fights for a real value in its currency—losing its battle against inflation
works for its people instead of the bankster community—regulates its banksters pretty closely and policies have to do with helping out after weather, earthquakes, and food failures within the economy
does not tolerate insider knowledge utilized for enrichment trading of a few—I am sure it exsits but I could not fine evidence of it
honors its debts to its creditors—Moderate debt to IMF for an emerging nation
provides timely information about its financial and non-financial activities to the world-- If March 2001 is timely, no modern computer financial reporting system established, one planned.
is not ranked on the BIS list as one of the world's leading manipulators—not ranked
does not fall under the control of other CB's to the detriment of its own citizens—who knows?
is admired by its citizens and not just its government for its activities.—who knows?
India's CB (as all CB's) come under the influence of the BIS and IMF and have their allocation of SDR's and mix paper with physical Gold when totaling assets. They also hold a good share of their assets in FRN's. No actual published stats that I could find on the shorting or leasing of Gold from their treasury., so I assume that it is not being done.
So depending upon how India manages its derivatives, controls its thirst for Gold to be consumed in jewelry making, and refrains from selling Gold short, they seem to have their intentions pointed in the right direction. They utilize 10 year plans and seem concerned about feeding and the general welfare of their people.
I would give them a passing grade. Of course, who knows what really goes on behind the scenes and in the back rooms.
The link to India's CB site is provided above so if anyone wishes to dispute my findings, please do. I never get offended when I get corrected. I learn something.
If no other nominations, then next on the list: Bank of Canada - Banque du Canada.
Regards,
BR549
Pandagold
(11/4/01; 14:35:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 64683)
Respect and Justice
I just want to add something here. I am no particular religious or political persuasion, so I have no axe to grind in those two camps. I could live in most places on this earth if I had to. I was taught by my father to always try and see the guys point of view - as the American Indian philosophised - learn to walk in HIS moccasins before judging.
Once when still a young boy I was visiting an aunt in the Isle of Man, a small island between England and Ireland.
I passed a very old farm house. Carved in stone above the entrance was the following - "Judge not your fellow man's condition, until you be in his position". Another way of what the redskins were saying.
I never forgot it. It also bore out my father's teaching.
For some years I was in Law Enforcement, I am also a psychologist, so I have a little knowledge of human behaviour. In my dealings with some pretty low life, and hardened criminals, I found one thing they all had in common
they could all recognise the concept of JUSTICE.
They knew when you were treating them fairly, and they respected it.
Your kids know it, your friends know it, your enemies know it. They also know when you are NOT!
714
(11/4/01; 14:33:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 64682)
Greenspan's rate cuts...
...are indicative of deflationary pressure on the economy. The U.S. is in a position not unlike that of Japan about 10 years ago at the onset of their economic correction. Some like to argue that inflation and deflation are strictly monetary phenomenon, but this is not the case. In spite of a "fiat" monetary system given to an ever expanding supply of money, deflationary pressures remain, particularly on the supply side of the economy. The growth of free trade has drastically affected prices by flooding world markets with cheaper and cheaper goods, along with an explosion in financial engineering, i.e. derivatives, which has displaced traditional hedges such as gold and bonds and allowed a greater degree of debt management. Historically, the high debt levels we're seeing now are prognosticators of more deflation, not less. And a falling interest rate environment does not bode well for higher gold prices in the near term.
On the plus side for gold, the world is being swept towards war, which always lends itself to inflation as supply chains are disrupted by combat and diverted production. But those conditions appear to be some distance off, as Osama bin Laden and his men are not exactly a traditional army capable of such disruption, at least not at this point in time (I wouldn't rule anything out when it comes to these boys).
Bear in mind that the price of gold has been falling for some time in Japan in spite of their longstanding downturn, and as debt levels get harder to manage in the West, for both individuals and corporations, gold prices may yet drop some more, as they have in Japan. Ultimately, gold's fate may be in the hands of the "dogs of war", but by no means is gold out of the woods yet.
Netking
(11/4/01; 14:32:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 64681)
Galearis - A bar in the hand, worth two in the (paper) jungle.
Galearis(64668)
Good comment, like the old saying goes buddy, "possession is nine tenths of the law".
One or two of my relations are thinking more of me as "smart" and less of me as a "PM nut" after events of recent months, they'll be buying themselves soon.
"Silver and Gold in the hand, insurance for L I F E"
- Netking
diehard
(11/4/01; 14:17:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 64680)
PO....`s
Why is the POG fixed in $ ?
Why is the POO fixed in $ ?
Why is the POS fixed in $ ?
Why isn`t the POW ( Price of Water)
fixed in $ ?
Why isn`t the POE ( Price of Energy)
fixed in $ ?
In what term should the POF ( Price of Freedom )
be fixed ?
At some point in the future when the $ is worth almost nothing ( except collection value of some seldom exposed pieces with misprint or special ink) when all the $ defenders have been exhausted and used itself up, a simple D2DB ( day-to-day-barter) will everybody give the chance to make a price in any item he can whatsoever offer.
Pandagold
(11/4/01; 14:12:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 64679)
White Hills (and all who see the situation as he does)
Whitehills: Well, if you think that ORO has hit in on the head in that post, then what can I say. Sept11 was a direct result of that sort of muddle thinking and a refusing to face the reality. And if you want more to follow, keep it up.
Some British, especially those in power, backed by media which painted the IRA as cruel murderers who were using the religious differences as an excuse to indulge in terror for terror's sake, held to this sort of muddled thinking based on our distorted view of history.
It was easy to believe them when we saw the horror displayed on the media, and with all the 'demonising' of individuals hitting you again and again.The media are professionals at it and all work as a team. (free press my foot)
Years of bombing and killings went by, and still they stuck to their ideas of why the 'terrorists' were as depicted.
Eventually the bombings got worse, then they hit the financial district of London, and it began to affect big business. It began to hit right where it hurts - the pocket.
In the end the two sides had to get round the table and were forced to make compromises.
You don't end things over night, and there will always be the off-shoot that doesn't accept the terms, but it gets down to events which can be handled.
It required climb downs on both sides, and it needs action to put agreements into practice.
And it comes from UNDERSTANDING that no man, except the odd individual nutcase who would be a loner anyway goes in for terror purely for the sake of it.
We, as a country, have faced more varied 'terrorist' activity against it than any other - a lot of it in the relinquishing of an Empire. So, I believe we have come to understand the causes better than most.
You want to believe ORO who merely echoes similar posters, and media, and who, strangely enough (probably pure coincidence)also are strong Israel supporters, go ahead. But, I guarantee with my life, that with that approach you will NEVER, NEVER have peace.
Usul
(11/4/01; 14:09:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 64678)
So, now what?
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1004828722498&call_page=TS_Business&call_pageid=968350072197&call_pagepath=Business/News&col=969048863851
Here's an investment article from the Toronto Star that says "Relax, read a history book and remember gold".
And where to get your physical gold? None other than USA GOLD, who are renowned for delivering real gold as prizes for their inspiring competitions. Events that help to focus our minds on all that is great about the yellow metal, such as the fact that is nobodys debt (so nobody can default on it), and it makes excellent wealth insurance as a carefully considered component of a portfolio.
auspec
(11/4/01; 14:08:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 64677)
BR549
An Honest CB?? I really do not know, but think we are on parallel trails; you're looking for an honest CB and I'm looking for overlapping/intertwining ownership of various CB's. The more overlapping we discover, the less likelihood of 'honesty' being present. It does not look like ORO is going to address my questions about who owns the various CBs, so I will simply have to keep seeking these answers. Really can't say that I blame him. Part of the reason that a united ECB is transpiring is that these various countries were already intermingled in ownership of various 'independent' CBs, imho. Not that much of a stretch for consolidation.
In the distant past, Switzerland might have been a good answer for your question as far as maintaining sound currency, at least. Honesty is another issue altogether and I would not toss that term in their direction. Neither would many holocaust 'heirs' of confiscated gold. You may receive a deafening silence in search of Mr. GoodBank.
Regards,
auspec
Usul
(11/4/01; 13:48:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 64676)
"Goings-on" in the Indian gold markets
http://www.economictimes.com/today/05comm01.htm
"Getting value for money
Madhusudhan Daga & Sanjiv Arole
THE MOOD in the market appears to be changing with the beginning of the festival season. In India, whether it is a festival or any other celebration, the first thing done is to buy gold and jewellery.
And, this is precisely the reason why India has remained as the world leader in the demand for gold.
Buying jewellery on occasions is a tradition in the country, however, what is important is to see that ``one gets value for money’’, if the recent survey by the World Gold Council and Bureau of Indian Standards combine is any indication..."
-----------------------------------------------------
And to Pandagold- quite correct, it was "Up Pompeii".
Repeated in the '90s on UK satellite TV station "UK Gold" (curiously enough)
White Hills
(11/04/01; 13:29:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 64675)
ORO Msg 64484
Pandagold and all. Read this post carefully as I feel it is right on the Mark. one sentence in the post sums it up, I think."Contact with the Western way is a threat to the power structure of a feudal society". Yes,it is the Freedom of America that is the threat. Congratulations to ORO for another insightful post. White Hills
Black Blade
(11/04/01; 13:27:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 64674)
Retailers expect less holiday bustle
http://www.kcstar.com/item/pages/story,local/3acd1bdf.b03,.html
Snippit:
Retailers and consumers may be seeking a respite from recent events with holiday shopping. But an ongoing war on terror, a slumping economy and mounting job losses have most analysts expecting ho-hum holiday sales. Holiday sales are crucial: Not only does consumer spending in general account for two-thirds of all economic activity, but also many retailers depend on holiday sales for roughly 40 percent of annual revenue. "Even before the terrible events of September 11, this was not going to be a very good selling season," Steidtmann said. "Unemployment was rising. Industrial production was in a steep decline. Corporate profitability was in full retreat. Tax rebates had done little to stimulate consumer spending. "The retail industry was clearly positioned to get a lump of coal. The Trade Center attack only alters the size of that lump."
Black Blade: This recession could be a very long drawn out affair. Several companies including Amazon.Com need this holiday season to be spectacular in order to survive. Many more bankruptcies and ensuing layoffs lie ahead. The "other shoe to drop?" In a word - "GRIM"
nickel62
(11/04/01; 13:22:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 64673)
Thanks ORO
I had not appreciated the political significance of the subtle shift between defense department interests and CIA and State. It was indeed the Dept of Defense that was floating this particular balloon. I appreciate the insite. Thanks
Black Blade
(11/04/01; 13:14:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 64672)
Yet Another Interest Rate Cut Expected
http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/011104/business_economy_fed_dc_1.html
Snippit:
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan is widely expected to swing his interest rate ax for the 10th time this year on Tuesday as he tries to shore up an economy most analysts say has tipped into recession. Many analysts say things are looking so grim that they expect an aggressive half-percentage point cut, the third such move since Sept. 11. But some say the Fed should opt for a quarter-point reduction since its previous nine cuts have yet to fully impact the economy.
Black Blade: A new record. 10 consecutive rate cuts! That is an act of sheer desperation as the FED is quite aware that the US economy is hopelessly sliding off into the abyss. Time to accumulate gold and silver portfolio insurance. We likely haven't even come close to seeing a "Bottom" yet.
Elwood
(11/04/01; 12:51:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 64671)
tedw (11/4/01; 11:52:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 64659)
"5000 dead Americans is hardly shouting "Yankee go home"."
You're wrong. That's exactly what it was. They've been talking about it for years, but, it seems, no one has been listening.
Now that they've followed through, some suddenly get concerned looks on their faces, say they're ready to whip out the nukes and go to work.
Murder is murder, no matter how you cut it. Those responsible should and will, no doubt, be brought to justice, but to ignore the ultimate cause of their actions is to invite its reocurrence.
No one, including those that planned and carried out these terrible crimes, would or could have predicted that a single airliner was all that was needed to bring down a skyscraper.
BR549 (11/4/01; 11:56:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 64660)
"So kindly explain to me why the U.S. is the bully instead of the instigators and perpetuators of world terrorism?"
What else would you call us showing up on their doorstep with thousands of troops saying, "We're from the US Government, and we're here to help you. Just don't mind our boot on your neck while we forcefeed you these mighty tasty American dollars." The term "world terrorism" is a misnomer coined to justify more of this same. Notice, no one seems to be interested in shouting "Canadians, go home!"
Elwood
Black Blade
(11/04/01; 12:49:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 64670)
ORO - A Glut of Low Cost Domestic Oil?
ORO: The TRC had the role of restricting production in order to provide its sponsors with higher prices per barrel. Having had the restraint by the TRC on production volumes, and from the Federal gov. on imports, prices were maintained at a higher level than they would have been otherwise. This caused further exploration and field development into low quality wells that would not have been put into production at free market prices. At the same time, the limitation on production by the TRC from each well and field caused the rate of return on investment per well to be lower, thus restraining capacity expansion in higher quality fields under TRC control, and extending development of fields where it did not have direct control. As a result, the oil industry's production structure was distorted, producing higher cost oil before lower cost oil, and providing unearned profits to those who could bring oil supplies from cheaper cost fields and sell into TRC controlled high prices in the US.
Black Blade: I see. Now just where are these low cost US oil fields? I see that under the current economic structure where there are few restrictions (other than environmental) US producers are now operating in ultra-deep offshore fields in the Gulf. On May, 9, 2001--TransOcean Sedco Forex Inc. (NYSE:RIG) said it has set a new world record for ultra-deepwater drilling when the company's Discoverer Spirit drillship spudded an exploration well in 9,687 feet of water in the Gulf of Mexico for Unocal Corporation (NYSE:UCL). That is quite an expensive venture if there are large "Cheap" oil fields scattered about. Just where are these low cost US oil fields?
North and South America can provide sufficient petroleum at a higher price. Unconventional petroleum sources such as the heavy bitumen sludges in the Orinoco Belt (Venezuela), the asphalt of the Athabasca Tar Sands (British Columbia), and the Oil shales in the Western US. It would require higher oil prices but it is doable. It was never about a shortage of Energy, but a shortage of "Cheap Energy."
The rest of the argument sounds like another nutty conspiracy theory. The politics of the Middle East are of no concern to the US. To deal with other countries, as Free Marketers is one thing, to interfere in their politics is another. Let natural selection take its course. Whoever produces a particular commodity will always sell it at a price. As far as the Oil Companies infiltrating the CIA, NSA and State Department and putting in place covert operatives to control foreign US oil policy is just nutty.
Galearis
(11/04/01; 12:47:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 64669)
correction
I meant to say
...or Taiwan...
Galearis
(11/4/01; 12:45:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 64668)
@Netking, your #: 64655)
Excellent post and a reminder of what (maybe) is (maybe) what...
Excellent post, sir Netking....
And Kaplan was not even mentioning (I presume) any fundamentals of supply and demand therein. What, it begs the question, would this situation be in the realization of a dead market in silver...?
A nice segue to the Ted Butler world view.....
.....Who does not incorporate (not a criticism on my part) the fiscal realities of hyperinflation and frantic grabs at real assets during currency collapse.... or hyperinflationary environment.
But back to gold...I had an interesting conversation with an immigrant from China (Taiwan) yesterday when discussed was the Roosevelt gold confiscation. She said that her country initiated something similar just after WW2 and issued in "exchange" certificates that could be cashed out later. Many threw these "paper gold" certificates away, but a wise few kept them or passed them to their children. These individuals then "cashed" them out at a 40% loss from what their original metal holding was worth. I do not have complete the timelines on these events.FWIW.
I wonder, with worry, what the political solutions will be to the coming calamities in the precious metals.
Regards,
G.
goldenpeace
(11/4/01; 12:43:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 64667)
BR-549 Honest CB?...
Would India qualify?
Interstate
(11/4/01; 12:22:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 64666)
Double message
Please ignore msg #64662. I was not finished with the message and it disappeared from my screen and so I had to rewrite it. The last one is the one I wanted to post.
Interstate
Interstate
(11/4/01; 12:16:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 64665)
BR-549 Honest CB
Are you kidding? A CB is just doing what most people do. See the last paragraph of auspec msg.#64640. From its beginings, its purpose was to do what they thought would make money for them, they were not interested in making their people (clients/customers) rich. Why was anyone interested in owning a bank? To make themselves rich!
Selling, leasing, derivatives are forms of gambling. People gamble. Paying debts to their debtors - statistics show that a huge % of people are declaring bankruptcy, defaulting on their debts or are behind on their debts.
So, before we find an honest CB, we need to find a completely honest person. Then that honest person could run an honest business. However, a stumbling block would be for the one honest person to find honest investors and employees. But I guess we can visit dreamland once in a while and do our wishing.
Interstate
Pandagold
(11/4/01; 12:10:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 64664)
tedw Those evil men
Yes, that old, funny, little, dirty evil man with a towel round his head who has to be assisted in order to keep on his feet, and pointed in the direction you want him to go, and whose hands shake like jello in an earthquake, is a very evil dangerous man indeed.
As are those ragged little urchins who dare to throw stones at those state of the art nice new Israeli tanks (which would unnerve a regiment of paratroopers) that rumble down their streets shelling the little hovels that are their homes, burying in the rubble their Mom's and baby sisters, or brothers, who can't run out of the way fast enough.
Lets not forget the evil young men who because all else has failed ie., no one will listen to their pleas for justice, strap explosives to their bodies and are prepared to die in order to make a statement.
A statement against a nation that used terror to establish itself, and has continued to use terror ever since - using as an excuse that it needs to defend itself, and was only taking land that belonged to it, or needed for its security.
The very words of Hitler.
It is being said, by Israel and its supporters, that the Palestine Israeli conflict is only being used by Bin Larden and others as an excuse. In other words, Israel is saying there is no real problem.
Good, then if it is only an excuse, take that excuse away from him and others, by establishing a proper Palestinian state and treating them as human beings, and equals.
At least, that would then reveal the real problem, should there be one. This we can all deal with.
Of course there are other problems, such as democratic governments who forget that they are democratic, that means - of the people, by the people, and for the people, no more, no less. But in those erring cases the terrorists will, at least, be all home-grown.
If this is not done, then you , and we all, have a legitimate fear of what may be down the road, whether we kill Bin Larden or not.
Black Blade
(11/4/01; 12:07:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 64663)
Energy Crises - Past, Present, and Future
http://www.simmonsco-intl.com/web/index.asp
A good source of information on the energy picture has been published by industry experts for decades. Matt Simmons is but just one of many. The Simmons and Co. Intl. has been advising the petroleum industry, investment banks, and Congress on the energy situation. There is free registration at the information web site. The publications, data, and analyses are freely available. Stop the flow of blood (Energy) and the patient (the economy) dies. Simple fact.
- Black Blade
Interstate
(11/4/01; 12:06:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 64662)
BR-549 Honest CB
Are you kidding? A CB is just doing what most people do. See the last paragraph of auspec msg.#64640. From its beginings, it was to do what they thought would make money for them, they were not interested in making their people (clients/customers) rich.
Selling, leasing, derivatives are forms of gambling. Paying debts to their debtors - statistics show that a huge % of people are declaring bankruptcy, defaulting on their debts or are behind on their debts.
Old Yeller
(11/4/01; 12:02:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 64661)
So many rabbit holes 'so little time
Cheers to all at the best discussion forum on the internet.The posting these last few days have been superlative.
Thanks so much to all for time and efforts to educate,and a special thanks to the proprietors of USAGOLD for furnishing
the hall of learning.
BR549
(11/4/01; 11:56:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 64660)
Who is the world's bully?
Elwood (msg#: 64657)---"And, no, I'm not trivializing the events of 9/11, but there's no way in hell that these actions threaten the security of the United States. They threaten only it's status as the world's bully."
Excuse me? Why is the U.S. the world's bully? You do understand that the citizens of over 60 nations died at WTC on 911 don't you? And you do understand that the World Alliance against world terrorism consists of over 60 countries don't you? So kindly explain to me why the U.S. is the bully instead of the instigators and perpetuators of world terrorism?
And while you are at it kindly explain how the events of 911 and subsequent terrorist activites such as anthrax do not threaten the security and well being of the world.
tedw
(11/4/01; 11:52:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 64659)
Nuke em
Elwood
5000 dead Americans is hardly shouting "Yankee go home".
They have a good idea where the Caves are that they are hiding in. I suggest a medium sized Nuclear bomb to blow them to hell, much as you would eliminate a rats nest or a pesky gopher.
What do you suggest? Negotiation?
Ten Bears
(11/4/01; 11:41:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 64658)
Questions
I read here many diverse and well considered views about the relationship of current events to the world economy and the price of gold. Some suggest the possibility that war is the last option of a failed monetary policy. Is it actually possible that those behind the US government are culpable in the recent tragedies as some have suggested? I have no facts about the current tragedy/provocations; however, there are certainly historical precedences sufficient to necessitate a good amount of rational skepticism concerning official government pronouncements. The question: "Who Profits?", leads one to consider other possibilities. Some facts do stand out, ie., the central banks, in an effort to defeat the business cycle have far over extended. And, the Muslim religions' position on usury is in conflict with the entire Western (and now Russian) economic philosophy. If a New World Order is to be established by the banking cartel, are the Muslims "in the way"?
Our founding fathers were opposed to excessive concentration of political power. Many were also opposed to the establishment of a central bank. George Washington warned specifically against political parties (factions) and foreign entanglements.
Members of my family have fought in America's wars back to the American Revolution. Now, as an old man and veteran, I question the wisdom of some of those wars and their sacrifices, and I pray that we are not being fooled again. l
Elwood
(11/4/01; 11:24:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 64657)
tedw (11/4/01; 09:48:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 64653)
Ted, have you gone off the deep end? My God, you don't nuke someone for shouting "Yankee, go home!" If that's what the folks at WND are subscribing to, then we should all be done with them. Israel should have made peace long ago.
And, no, I'm not trivializing the events of 9/11, but there's no way in hell that these actions threaten the security of the United States. They threaten only it's status as the world's bully.
Elwood
BR549
(11/4/01; 11:16:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 64656)
In search of an honest CB somewhere within the world
auspec (msg#: 64636)---" Most roads will lead to....................London."
Just think how different it would have been if those Roman's would have hoarded their Gold coins instead of squandered them.
@ALL-Gold is the ultimate hyper-inflation barometer and has, IMHO, been surpressed in a world wide conspiracy by all of the world's CB's.
So I am in search of an honest CB somewhere within the world. A CB that does not sell Gold from its treasury, does not lease Gold from its treasury, does not conspire to drive the POG down by selling it short, does not gamble a significant percentage of its assets on derivatives, fights for a real value in its currency, works for its people instead of the bankster community, does not tolerate insider knowledge utilized for enrichment trading of a few, honors its debts to its creditors, provides timely information about its financail and non-financial activities to the world, is not ranked on the BIS list as one of the world's leading manipulators, does not fall under the control of other CB's to the detriment of its own citizens, and is admired by its citizens and not just its government for its activities.
So far the U.S., Argentina, and the U.K. CB's have been eliminated.
Any nominations from the floor?
Regards,
BR549
Netking
(11/4/01; 10:54:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 64655)
Silver/Gold and the realities that we ARE facing.
Copied this from 'Kapex' worthy of a read particularly for Ag bugs - Netking;
". . . I said a few weeks ago that Silver looked like it would go to new lows if it went below a certain level. It did, and it did! BUT!!! The weekly chart shows a nice 5 wave decline to this low right in the timeframe allocated by the 30 and 60 year cycles that WD Gann found.
The target was a low this year around Oct - Nov and this is happening.
http://www.fyii.net/cgi-bin/chartgeu.pl?si.w
James Flanagan said in this piece that he sent out by mail last spring, and I quote him below...
"After the Dec 29 1932 low, the market adavnced 232% into a final high in 1935. This was followed by an 82% retracement of the entire advance into a historic secondary higher bottom on Nov 27, 1941. After the Feb 22 1993 low, our market advanced 114% into the 1998 high. This has been followed by as much as 75% retracement into the recent low at $4.37.
(This came out in the mail 6 months ago) con't
If we duplicate this 60 year pattern, our market would establish a higher bottom in NOVEMBER 2001 above the $3.50 low. This low in turn would be followed by a long term bull market similar to what occurred after the 1941 low. Between November 27 1941 and July 1946 price advanced 165% ( there was price fixing during WWII ) ***His parenthese, not mine*** Based upon our historic position, I believe our advance will be much greater than that. This would allow us to issue the second historic buy recomendation since we began publishing in 1990."
That above is the full paragraph near the end. The next paragraph titled "30 Year Cycle" says this further down...
"After the May 1968 high, the market retraced the entire advance into a final low on October 27 1971. Once this low was in place, price advanced 402% by February 27 1974. In other words, the final lows on November 27 1941 and October 27 1971 both supported historic advances. We will celebrate these anniversary lows in October/November 2001."
I sent this to a few people earlier this year and have wondered greatly about it! I am NOW no longer Wondering about it!!!
Just remember, looking back in hindsight a few years down the road, this area will be one that emits a feeling of shoulda, coulda, woulda, why didn't I.
As opposed to, "Oh my God, It's making new lows and become paralyzed" Years down the road, you'll look back and say "DAMN, that was a gift, and all I could do was agree with those bashing the bulls!" This is a good thing!
But again, WHY is all this control being exerted?
I think it is being accumulated in a Massive way!
The evidence that Andrew H. has found and Bill Murphy has posted Andrew's corespondence, shows that the IMF has told them to report the absent physical Gold as still being there. Then the IMF lied about what how asked these countries to report it.
IMVHO . . . "
Canuck
(11/4/01; 10:33:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 64654)
(No Subject)
Car bomb in England only partially detonated, otherwise would have been huge.
-CNN-
tedw
(11/4/01; 09:48:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 64653)
Nuclear terrorism
www.worldnetdaily.com
Some credible reports of Osama having some nuclear material
surfacing at the link above.
Of course I hope Im wrong,but I see the world plunging into a disaster of WWII magnitude, even greater.
I see absolutely no chance of any Arab/Isreali peace deal.
The middle east terrorists, Arafat included, are just plain evil, and there is no way you can make peace with them. Just as you could not make peace with Hitler.Therefore, I see war as inevitable.
And the terrorists want war. They want to provoke Isreal into attacking in order to draw the surrounding Arab countries into another Arab/Isreali conflict.
I see the Bush administration making 2 serious mistakes.1)Not supporting Isreal in its legitimate right of self-defense and 2) Not responding with massive overwhelming force to Osama and the Taliban.
We are dealing with people like Hitler and the Japanese Agressors. Hiroshama and Nagasaki were the overwhelming use of force on an enemy that only understood force. Like it or not, thats what we need now.
Pandagold
(11/4/01; 09:45:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 64652)
Belgian on timing
Belgian: No, I don't try to guess their timing ( I assume you mean for gold to move?) Well, one can try to work out from certain patterns as to timing on many things, but only as a guide to prepare. Taking action (ie committing hard cash) that's another matter.
Timing is the most important consideration in investing, and the hardest one to get right - or so I have found.
Thanks for your comments
ORO
(11/4/01; 08:37:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 64651)
Nickel62 - Mil vs. 7 X
The problem the Military faces is not public opposition, it is State Department and CIA opposition to anything that could disturb the oil flow now or later, AND keep 7 X in as near exclusive control of it as possible. Without certainty that the Military operation would succeed and the fields be retained intact (remember that oil producing structures are rather sensitive to "dynamite on a string" sabotage), they would continue with the failed policy (for the US, not for 7 X) of acquiescing to as many of the Saudi Royal's demands as they can get away with. Neither State nor CIA have any belief in American's stomach for war on this issue.
If the Saudi freaks fund a set of terrorist attacks that bring 6000 dead and 5-6000 injured, it is fine so long as the oil flows, and flows through 7X. Let's just try and press Israel that much closer to the wall. Let's run exercizes with Egypt, who does not actually have enemies of substance to defend against (or do they intend to have some in the future?). Let's continue assisting in the most extreme oppression on earth outside of the Taliban and Sudanese slavers. Let's continue letting the Saudi's untouchable neighbors fester with malice while we have to continue subduing them at their people's expense, and ours, with us earning the hatred aimed at us several times over. Why? because the Wahabi clerics and Ayatulas in Iran would throw a fit and make the Saudi Royal's life a little less cushy or force them to live in Switzerland, London, and Paris.
Had things been done at the right time, we would not be facing this situation today. But that's spilled milk, a few million skeletons too late.
If push comes to shove and the oil fields are to be lost anyway, then State and the CIA might not oppose direct Mil action.
Belgian
(11/4/01; 08:11:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 64650)
@ Pandagold # 64645 Frankenstein
Yep, another good posting. And in particular where London is calling the bluff of the "financial brotherhood", in the know of the yellow precious ! But don't make the mistake of guessing their timing, Sir ! Do agree that night has fallen but have no idea what time it is, before dracula can satisfy his thirst for the (yellow) blood.
Better stick to the 129 TG msg.
Thanks for posting.
nickel62
(11/4/01; 07:45:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 64649)
ORO
A very edifying presentation as usual. It is interesting that the defense department is sending out trial balloons right now about whether the US should abandon the Royal Family of Saudi and perhaps try to keep a control on the oil through direct occupation of US troops. Very interesting. Not sure if it is feasible but interesting that they want that message whispered about.
ORO
(11/4/01; 06:45:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 64648)
ge Black Blade - Effect is not cause
http://www.wtrg.com/prices.htm
Here is a common fallacy in economic reasoning from the above.
"Throughout the post war period exporting countries found increasing demand for their crude oil and a 40% decline in the purchasing power of a barrel of crude."
No!
The economic cause and effect chains are as follows:
Rising supply led to lower real prices.
Lower real prices brought oil to lower value uses that the higher real costs prevented. Thus new demand was formed.
Conclusion:
The additional demand would not have been there had real prices not fallen.
In the period immediately after WWII, returning GIs went to work, married, settled down, had kids, bought cars, moved to suburbia, drove more. They were added labor supply, thus labor prices fell, some 20%. They introduced higher demand for petroleum products, thus the relative price of crude rose. With labor costs down and prices up, oil industry margins were high. With the high margins, investment in new production capacity became worthwhile and rose accordingly. Thus supply came online and caused relative prices to slide back to the point where margins were sufficiently low so that investment in new production stopped because the return on investment was higher elsewhere in the economy.
The TRC had the role of restricting production in order to provide its sponsors with higher prices per barrel. Having had the restraint by the TRC on production volumes, and from the Federal gov. on imports, prices were maintained at a higher level than they would have been otherwise. This caused further exploration and field development into low quality wells that would not have been put into production at free market prices. At the same time, the limitation on production by the TRC from each well and field caused the rate of return on investment per well to be lower, thus restraining capacity expansion in higher quality fields under TRC control, and extending development of fields where it did not have direct control. As a result, the oil industry's production structure was distorted, producing higher cost oil before lower cost oil, and providing unearned profits to those who could bring oil supplies from cheaper cost fields and sell into TRC controlled high prices in the US.
Such companies were the "7 sisters", who benefited from their position as the pumpers of the lowest cost oil from the ME, particularly Saudi, who had the privelege of selling in an artificially high price area.
During the price control period, the lower prices imposed by government regulation caused investment in new local production, and therefore, supply to fall, thus shifting supply opportunities from local US producers to foreign source oil at a much higher price (70% higher in the mid 70s, 40% in the late 70s). Again, the "7 sisters" benefited from the arrangement by restricting their competitor's prices, and therefore their competitor's supply. They made unearned profits and increased market share.
Shortly after the removal of the price caps on domestic oil production, the market was glutted by domestic and foreign oil, which proves decidedly that the price caps did not work towards the goal of lower prices, but quite the contrary, their actual goal and result was to maintain higher prices than were otherwise obtainable during the time that remained on the leases in Saudi.
Needless to say, this implies that the US government had been run, at least in part, for the benefit of these particular oil companies. Certainly in matters of ME foreign policy and intelligence, they steered action away from that required by popular support for Israel among the US public and in public government proclamations, towards appeasing the Saudi Royals so that leases are not put in danger and remain in their firm control. For this purpose, they had populated the State Department and the organizations that formed the CIA and NSA with their own people and with their banker's people. From this vantage point, they could steer actual policy rather than lip service. The "warm relations" of the US with Saudi, Kuwait etc. were the very profitable interests of particular oil company shareholders and executives, who were controling the reality of US foreign relations in the ME to their own advantage, regardless of the interests of the US public at large, or of their opinions. To a large extent, the whole of the "oil crisis" was caused by the artificial restrictions these oil companies forced on the industry through government, and also benefited directly from the initial conditions that followed the breakdown of their scheme, and forced the consequent actions of government in precisely such a way as to obtain the benefit of each step in the government's attempts to answer the crisis. When control of cheap oil from Iran finally fell away with the Shah, these companies pressed the US gov. to eliminate the price cap policy now that it no longer benefited them exclusively.
As I have said, government is always for sale. The more authority it has, the more patronage it's officials and politicians have to sell.
Pandagold
(11/4/01; 06:39:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 64647)
A man cannot serve two masters
The best way to gain power over individuals, or nations, is to put them in debt. It can be a monetary debt, or your silence over embarrassing, or even criminal, activities in which they have been engaged.
On the latter, can you now see how so many politicians, especially heads of State, are allowed to reach high places with such dubious pasts, or weaknesses, that somehow manage to get revealed when, often unknown to us, they have not been conforming quite in the interests of their 'creditors'.
It also explains why they so often do things which can bring such outrage from the people whom they are supposed to serve under a democratic system. They have been caught between the devil and the deep blue see - and they chose the devil.
In the so called 'Good Book' I understand, ( I'm no authority) it says - "a man cannot serve two masters".
This is the dilemma faced by so many of our politicians. Many have set out with high ideals, they are basically (very basically in some cases) God fearing men with a desire to serve their country. But that was way back in their halcyon days. Somewhere along the way up the ladder, they met and sold out to the devil for the promise of fame.
They forgot that it also says in that 'Good Book' - "What profiteth a man if he gains the whole world and loses his soul". Are you hearing, Bush, and Blair et al?
Pandagold
(11/04/01; 05:40:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 64646)
Oo-oops correction
Oo-oops that should be 'feigned' heart attack
Pandagold
(11/04/01; 05:35:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 64645)
A Frankenstein monster
In two of my posts I have talked about wizards. As you realised (you did didn't you?) that this was cynical tongue in cheek stuff.
All of you who ever watched "The Wizard of OZ" (and that surely must be all of you), know that there was really no wizard, it was just a mere mortal hiding behind a 'voice booming' facade.
Very soon we will see behind our wizard's facade. He has served his purpose, and let me make this clear - his purpose was NEVER that of the United States. Have you got that NEVER!. He serves another master, a master that will use the US just as long as there is life in the old dog. Once that life blood ebbs, it's on to pastures green (mixed metaphors? sorry, but you get the drift).
You will find before this time next year (if we are still alive) that he will have left his exalted seat under a ' long awaited retirement', or perhaps real, or fiend heart attack, or some other ill health problem.
Whatever the reason, or time, it will be before the full load of sh*t hits the fan. And, gold, IMHO, will do little BEFORE that time.
The economic typhoon (highest scale ever to be recorded) we are entering has nothing whatever to do with Bin Laden or Sept11th. Our course was set years ago. The devastation that will be wreaked upon the world has been known for years by those that set this course to serve their own ends. (and if you haven't figured out why it was done, and how they have used it - shame)
Over these years, to move our focus away from the real perpetrators, manipulators, call them what you will, we have been fed a diet of media and movie propaganda much disguised as 'entertainment', so we have 'consumed' it unwittingly, and passively like, cigarette smoke in a Bangkok night club.
Like Frankenstein, an uncontrollable monster has now been created that will run amok, and will defy many attempts for a long time to come to control it, before it is finally (?) put to rest.
Will 'they' worry? Not a bit, disaster means opportunity, and if you wonder who owns and controls most of the 'real' money - you know that horrible yellow stuff that we are told governments keep dumping and has no place in our modern world - they do!.
If you don't believe this now, unless you are in the advanced stages of senility, you will before long.
ge
(11/4/01; 04:56:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 64644)
Oil Price History and Analysis
http://www.wtrg.com/prices.htm
.
Belgian
(11/4/01; 03:43:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 64643)
Sunday Morning
@ Invisible : The probability of another Al Qeada crime is very, very, low ! Martyrdom is a passive activity that must be cultivated as such. This (logic) is in sharp contrast with the alarmist atmosphere that is created. Inclusive the prolonged uncertainty (and false alarms) on anthrax.
Very little seems what it is, as usual.
@ JB : #64615 Ron Paul. Very Precious speech but a lonely cry into the dark, I'm afraid. But nevertheless, I would rather like to fly with unarmed pilots, the european way.
Thanks for posting.
Price Inflation (panda-wizardry) in Europ :
Cost of living indicators (the official ones) are blatantly falsified and quietly accepted by everyone. There is no talk about infla/defla-lala, at present. All efforts are concentrated on the management of a stable standard of living for the broadiest population. This management is a very complex enterprise. Apart from falsified inflation (permanent depreciation) indicators, there is that mighty weapon of Taxing-power and re-distribution. Cheap imports are offsetting increasing prices of local produced goods and services. Purchasing power is broadly distributed through re-distribution (welfare) and avoids price-setting by the dominant strong.
The POO-spike to 34$ was an external, disturbing shock.
Temporary adsorbed by Tax refundment and lucky decline of the crude price, just in time. The management of stable (rising) prices survived that shock. A perfect example how the Tax Power and re-distribution, is a very powerfull tool in the european economic management.
Lagging wage-increases versus increased Taxed, price rises, are buffered with substantial private savings and don't bite too strongly into consumer demand. The low amount of individual debts are welfared away.
Opening and expanding the european community from 300 million to 500 million citizens is having a price containing effect for the richer parts in the EMU, due to the fact that production costs and wages in the poorer parts, are slowly adjusting to the higher price regions in a competitive way. They are working harder for the same euro, for the time being.
At present, the only external (price) shock for Europ lies in the dollar and its appreciation by crude oil. The european individual is not stockmarket dependant as his US counterpart. Interest rates on savings (!) are more important for consumer's spending behavior. Higher IRs, tend to flow to more consumption, heavely taxed of course.
What I'm suggesting is that europ is better buffered against the systemic permanent depreciation with its different speeds. And it is the dollar as widespread global reserve currency that will decide from where an eventual shock will come. Crude oil is imvho the most dangerous crusader by now.
The Invisible Hand
(11/4/01; 02:55:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 64642)
***** Best of the Gold Trail. . . MSG # 123 *******
Msg one , two, three is re-explaining the intricacies of our present gold market.
Its conclusion leaves the reader with no doubt as to where we're heading
"Next talk is about inflation, titled: ---- "Forget deflation! The deflation theorist are losing their wealth fast enough for all of us!" –"
thereby announcing msg 129 Nevertheless, as one, two, three lays the foundations of the market or rather expands on the foundations given in
- FOA's 8/10/98 message to MK, on how the gold market works,
and in
- the more than 30 days old msg 106 of the Gold Trail where the structural inflationary trend of the dollar was outlined,
I consider one, two, three, it's as easy as that, to be the best of the Gold Trail.
8/10/98 Friend of ANOTHER
(Editor's Note: Please read what's below carefully. This is an extraordinary analysis from the Friend of ANOTHER at a time of much confusion and uncertaintly in investment/currency markets. We are told at the outset that the largest pro-gold groups -- the Europeans and the Gulf states -- want a world currency "not subject to the performance of the American economy." In other words, a currency not tied to American treasury obligations, or the percpicacity of any other nation for that matter. That currency for those of us who have reached for the deeper truths of economy is called gold. As an American, I must say that I have never seen the concept of American hegemony explained in quite the same way before. Perhaps, my eyes were closed. I keep getting this feeling that Americans must necessarily begin to understand a new role for this country in a rapidly changing international political and economic environment -- a role for which our political and economic institutions appear ill-prepared. I will not be so presumptuous as to explain what the Friend of ANOTHER is saying, I will let you read for yourself. I do not think it could be said any better than Friend of ANOTHER says it. The fact that his analysis implies how one should design one's portfolio is a happy side benefit.)
Michael Kosares,
It has taken some time to send this, but now I can also offer my thoughts to your questions.
Your statement: "As a matter of long term policy, do you believe that ECB will "sell" gold to defend the Euro or "buy" gold to defend the Euro? Each of course would entail a different course of action with respect to reserves of the new national bank. Along these lines,will ECB buy gold from its member treasuries, or will it simply force them to transfer it to ECB coffers if needed to defend the Euro? I am prompted to ask this question in view of your assertion that there will be much selling of Euros to defend the dollar. If the Euro, as you suggested, is being printed to buy dollars isn't this just another manifestation of the U.S. exporting its inflation? It appears to me that the Euro will need to be defended -- and not with dollars -- but with gold! "
Michael, I believe the most difficult part in understanding the modern gold market is overcome by seeing all the various political factions involved. Essentially and basically, the largest pro gold groups are those who want a world currency that is not subject to the performance of the American economy. At this moment and in this period of economic history, all currency reserves held by foreigners (non-Americans) is a debt of the US Government and by extenuation through tax collection, a debt based on the ability of the American economy to function profitability!
In essence, America has told the world that as long as the business of this country is functioning, your wealth, as represented in Marks, Yen, Pesos, etc. is backed with performing US debt. It's like saying, "as long as your neighbor, next door, does not loses his job, you will not lose all your money! Most people would be surprised at how clear this is, outside the USA sphere of influence. This, the largest of the pro gold group, is largely made up of countries with economies that have no need to sell most of their production to the US. The business of these communities would not totally fail without the American engine. Yes, they would slow down, but not collapse, as trade with other countries would continue. To add what was said before: If your neighbor loses his job, you can still trade with the other people in the town, as long as the currency system is not based on your neighbors debts!
This group, made up of much of Europe and the Middle East, is not looking for a return to the old Gold Standard, but perhaps something far better. They do not see any advantage in holding the currency bonds of one country, as a reserve asset of future payment, over holding physical gold as a reserve asset in full payment. The fact that the debt reserve asset pays interest is little more than a joke in these banking circles. Any paper currency, the dollar included, can fall in exchange value against your local currency far more than the interest received! In today's paper markets, the only true value in exchange reserves, held by a government as currency backing, is found in it's effectiveness for defending the local currency from falling against other currencies. In other words, use the reserves to buy your countries money. But, this is a self defeating action as sooner or later the reserves are used up! This fact is not lost on many, many countries around the world, as they watch their currencies plunge, lacking reserves as defense. Ask them how important the factor of earning interest on reserves is under these conditions.
On the other hand, buying gold on the open market, using your local currency, works as a far different dynamic from selling foreign bond\reserves. This action takes physical gold off the market, and in doing so increases it's value in dollar terms. Gold is and always has been the chief competitor with the dollar for exchange reserve status. The advantage here comes from the fact that governments do not run out of local currencies to use in buying gold, as opposed to selling foreign currency reserves to buy the local currency on the open market. Of course, the local price of gold goes sky high, however, in this action you are seen as taking in reserves, not selling them off.
Also, as gold begins to rise against the dollar, the local gold reserves are seen as assets of increasing value, backing the local currency. Under these conditions, with a stable currency, citizens will purchase more gold as it is seen as a positive asset. Not unlike a rising stock, everyone wants an increasing investment. Contrast this action against that in Korea, where everyone sold gold as it increased in an unstable currency!
Basically, this is the direction the Euro group is taking us. This concept was born with little regard for the economic health of Europe. In the future, any countries money or economy can totally fail and the world currency operation will continue. What is being built is a new currency system, built on a world market price for gold. Michael, you are absolutely correct in that the USA will see a hyper inflation of it's currency and a gold price in dollars that reflects it. Unfortunately, for most investors, the gold price rise will be sudden and also hyper fast. as it will occur just after a rapid plunge in dollar based assets including, stocks, debt and the entire banking system. This action will destroy virtually all gold based paper assets as they are also dependent on a functioning economic system. A local gold mine, in any country, must sell production to realize a profit. The contract system they deal with will not be functioning during this time. Contrary to many hopeful investor, local treasury officials will not allow miners to pay employees or buy equipment with physical gold. When the dust does clear for mining to continue, gold will be recognized worldwide as real money, and the mining of money will, no doubt, carry Extreme taxation. Stock prices of these operations, after being priced to zero, will then double or triple in price. Zero times three equals?
Back to your original question. The Euro will not replace gold, it will evolve into a gold transactional currency. It will also price Euro gold very high, perhaps $6,000 in current dollar terms buying power. However, in actual dollar terms of the future, $30,000 US will reflect the American debt as the negative reserve asset it truly is. The ECB will have an easy time issuing Euros to buy gold from the member banks. The real political warfare will be in trying to force them to sell the gold at all, once this ball starts rolling. The Euro has, in effect already been dispersed in the form of Gold Leases not gold sales. One has only to look at the official gold holdings of most central banks to see that physical gold sales are little more than the average, with a good amount of that coming from nonEuro countries. Gold is a funny thing, it can be sold many times and pass through many countries and still remain in a CB vault. Truth Be told, some 14,000 metric/ton have been sold this way. Far more than the street thinks. Using this amount it's easy to see how certain entities have moved off the dollar standard in the last few years. If we use a future price of $6,000+US, the move is about complete.
The process: An oil country (or others) goes to London and purchases one tonn of gold from a Bullion Bank. The BB borrowed this gold from the CB (leased). The one tonn gold certificate is transferred to the new owner. The gold stays in the CB vault and the owner goes home. The CB leased this gold to the BB and expects it to be returned plus interest. The BB financed the Actual Purchase of this gold mortgaging assets of the buyer. The BB, who created the loan, then uses the cash arranged in this venture to contract with a mining company (or anyone wanting a gold/cross financing deal) to purchase production gold, using this cash to pay for it. In the eyes of the mining company, the BB just sold gold on the open market, for cash, and will purchase future production at the contracted price. The mine does not know where the gold came from, only that it was sold and a fixed cash price is waiting. Of course, most of this made more sense when gold was higher. There were thousands of these deals, structured in every possible fashion. Look to the volume on LBMA and you see where the future reserve currency is traded today!
Now when we look at this picture, who is at risk here? The Euro CB Group still holds the physical gold and will buy it back from the new owners, if asked, using printed Euros. The new gold owner has just replaced his dollar reserves with either bargain priced gold, or Euros at an exchange rate never to be seen again! Some of this was done to buy the pricing of oil in Euros. The BB owe the CBs 14,000 tons of gold that they must collect inthe future from producers or currency speculators. And they must collect it by paying what will be a, then, ridiculous price of $300/$400US, while the world market price will be, well, a little higher.
With Canada, Australia, and perhaps England having sold much gold to hold US$, much of the English speaking, IMF/dollar world is about to change. Any country, Japan, Mexico, etc., that has locked their future by selling most of their production to the American economy , is headed for a depression. Another is answering some of your mail questions and is also sending a letter. Will send it on arrival.
Thanks Michael,
FOA
ORO
(11/04/01; 02:37:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 64641)
Black Blade - Drivers of crises
As you intimated, the real price of oil had dropped considerably with growing use from the 50s to the 1973 bottom after going up in the late 40s (actually all of the price rise was in 1947). On my crude to goods indices, this is a change from 0.12 to 0.17 in 1947, and a gradual fall till the bottom at 0.12 (of course).
The embargo was indeed against many countries, not only the US. But its effect was not so much in cutting supply so much as it was in exacerbating a problem already present: namely the hoarding of oil, processed oil products, and of oil substitutes, which had been motivated by monetary factors rather than by any particular expectation of a shortage of oil, or a cut in supply.
Yes, pricing control on the supply side had moved into Saudi hands as the swing producer. Yes, the cut in production led to a climb up the price/volume curve. Yes, the Nixonian price controls (ugh!, and he was a Republican) did prevent new supply from coming to market by preventing investment. Yes, fear of some furthur future supply curtailment was a factor in hoarding even in the initial embargo.
But NO, the MAIN factor was monetary, as it was the main factor bringing to the formation of OPEC in the first place: the losses in purchasing power of their revenue from fixed price contracts.
Burns, as did his predecessors, monetized anything and everything. He kept short rates sufficiently low for it to be profitable to hold excess inventory against borrowed money because Burn's artificially low rates were well below the rate of price rises. Average real Fed funds rates were: 1971-80 -0.01%, 1974-80 -0.77%. Furthermore, for the period 1969-1981 it was profitable to hold practically any energy related commodity in inventory even if your financing cost was at prime rather than Fed funds (essentially the cap on how much a bank would offer you at the time, and therefore the opportunity cost associated with the cash used for inventory buildup) but for the two years 1972 and 1976.
That was on a much greater scale than the supply shocks. Why? Because it worked against the fundumental market mechanism for retrieving inventory in times of shortage, thus making it impossible to motivate supply to the market from existing inventory, and making growing inventory at a time of shortage an attractive (extremely attractive) proposition. The Fed's policy prevented supply and demand from converging at the relative price one would expect by going up the relative price/volume statistic. Beyond that, it made holding reserves in the ground more attractive than pumping them out, while making exploration for reserves very attractive.
That is why I consider the "oil crises" mainly a monetary issue. So far, Greenspan has not fallen into this trap, and through the whole of his term he has avoided lowering rates to near 0 real rates while energy prices were rising. He only brought rates down to average 1% real rates during the 1990-93 period when these prices were dropping 9% per year for oil, and 1/2% for NG and coal.
auspec
(11/4/01; 02:27:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 64640)
From Cafe/David Vaughn
Gold, since the beginning of history, has been considered money and in our generation especially it was considered a necessary component of a well hedged portfolio designed to withstand uncertain economic storms. That concept has been challenged these past few years. But while the Western Culture has spurned gold other prominent banking financial interests around the globe are giving gold respect & consideration.
This past summer a seminar was planned by a group of Islamic countries including representatives from the Islamic banking sector to look into the feasibility of creating an Islamic World Currency based on gold & silver coinage: the Dinar & Dirham. The Institute of Islamic Banking & Insurance
"The Islamic Dinar is a specific weight of gold equivalent to 4.3 grammes. The Islamic Dirham is a specific weight of silver equivalent to 3.0 grammes." The World Islamic Trading Organization
"The crash of the current financial system is inevitable…The only people who won't lose everything are those who have turned their stocks, bonds, savings and other investments into real and tangible assets like gold and land…The reality is that when trading on the stock market is suspended and share prices have hit zero history will repeat itself and Muslims will be left holding worthless bits of paper called share certificates to match the other worthless bits of paper called money or bank notes." Muslim Open Trade Network
"If we do not use US dollars, we do not need to peg ringgit with dollars," Finance Minister Datuk Seri Dr. Mahathir Mohamad
"The Islam Today Working Weekend saw the first public demonstration of the "e-Dinar" digital currency (an ATM type debit card, but backed by gold), a key new facility which takes advantage of the most recent advances in Internet based commercial transacting and which has the potential to greatly accelerate the development of the Dinar and the Dirham into a world-wide medium of exchange and payment" M. O. T. N.
"A network of Wakalas integrated by the e-Dinar will form the operational core of the Islamic money system and will eventually enable it to function entirely independently of the current (US) banking system. The Wakala network will operate a worldwide Dinar account and payment system which is 100% gold backed. The Islamic Wakala of Dubai has been established as the first clearing house and main gold deposit for the entire network." M. O. T. N.
The Western version to the e-Dinar card is e-gold, GoldGrams, Standard Reserve (a more traditional debit card & can be used in ATM machines), GoldMoney.com, & MetalSavings (will pay interest on deposits). All of these electronic payment systems are 100% backed by gold. "The digital gold community is expanding rapidly…There are now more people than ever using digital Gold…"
Reuters 7-10-01 1:35 PM ET; Street.com John Rubino 1-19-01 11:59 AM ET; www.goldbankone.com
Most within the Western Banking Culture lack the courage to consider any alternative to the present fiat (paper) monetary system. This lack of objectivity and understanding "…only promotes a narrow-mindedness and an absurd conceit, based on utter ignorance…an intolerant egotism." V. M. Hillyer Calvert School, 1924
What is the history of gold and what are its contributions to humanity?
"Possession of this bright yellow metal has been a mark of wealth for thousands of years…During the Middle Ages, a whole science called alchemy grew up around mans efforts to make gold by artificial means." The World Book Encyclopedia 1964. The science of alchemy was abandoned when men realized the same thing could be accomplished through the invention of the "bank": value and wealth created out of nothing. END
Comment: On another note, Reg Howe and GATA put down their wild card in Boston Court action tomorrow. May it hold trump!
Netking
(11/4/01; 01:38:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 64639)
Iran To Back Taliban With Military Forces, Says Iranian Paper
http://www.iran-press-service.com/articles_2001/nov_2001/iran_backing_taleban_31101.htm
From the 'Iran press service'(FWIW)- Snippet:
TEHRAN 3 Nov. (IPS) Iran has decided to help both the afghan ruling Taleban regime against the United States and the "Al-Qa’eda" organisation to mount new terrorist operations aimed at the US and British forces stationed in the Persian Gulf, informed sources with access to the Revolutionary Guards intelligence said Friday.
According to the source, Iran has sent to Afghanistan some 1.500 men, "fully equipped", drawn from the Revolutionary guards elite "Al-Qods" force to Afghanistan, mixed with Afghans militias belonging to Mr. Golboddin Hekmatyar, an unpopular Afghan warlord who lives in Iran . . . "
Netking
(11/4/01; 01:30:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 64638)
***** Best of the Gold Trail. . . MSG # 128 *******
Why MSG #128? a tough choice, a bit like choosing from the menu of a fine establishment. The last 30 days have carried some important messages from 'The Trail' but in the end the fairly recent 128 carried the day; ". . . some form of freely priced barter gold is now firmly on the road to becoming a real competition for use in world wide trade . . . " Forget Argentina and forget the derivatives for the moment (if you can!), this will be "really" big in retrospect. . . Jan 1st 2002 IS the dawning of a very new day. It wouldn't be complete without some snippets from the master trail guide #128 (smile) - Netking
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". . . using gold to partially settle world wide oil trades would bring more balance into this one-sided dollar economic world. Trade alignments, such as gold for grain, grain for copper, copper for oil, then oil for gold would easily be adapted into our current solo dollar realm; forcing the dollar to share it's fiat use demand with real barter trade for real goods . . . "
". . . Where official dollar supporters have structured our paper gold market in a way that values gold only upon it's money backing merits; a returning of gold into it's barter trade realm would force a realignment of values between physical and paper. Once again allowing gold's value to soar and creating a large enough liquidity mass to serve not only as an oil trading medium, but wealth savings for all. . . "
". . . Not only Euros, but some form of freely priced barter gold is now firmly on the road to becoming a real competition for use in world wide trade. Within this evolution, the currency trade settlement game is being slowly switched from virtual to real time as the act of slowly accumulating gold over a long transition period is drawing to a close. . . "
". . . The coming inflationary fire will now sever the wealth our reserve dollar system created for all of us Americans. In the same scope of time a, Euro based, free gold price will evolve out of these inflation fires. I for one do not relish this outcome, but welcome the good such a staunch reality will infuse into our national values. . ."
". . .Gold must rise in value many many times just to regain it's wealth barter asset value. Perhaps $10,000 to start. Then, it will run with any and all dollar inflation,,,,, even Euro inflation that ECB people openly admit must be a part of a dollar to Euro transition. . . "
". . .The EuroLand Central Banks have every bit of gold in their vaults their accounts say they do. For that matter, so does the USA (for now!). . ."
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Thanks Trail Guide - regards Netking.
Belgian
(11/4/01; 01:16:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 64637)
FOA msg : 129
SIR(s),
My poor english and lack of superlatives are reasons, for not being able, to praise the * very profound content *, of your latest message ! Brilliant and outstanding ! Radically to the point, without any doubt. Many thanks, again, for communicating, amically, what many other simply don't dare to conclude, for obvious reasons. Wish you health and happiness as to pay humbly for my enormous debt to you.
Thank you Sir !
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