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Welcome to the USAGOLD Gold Discussion Archives. The archives of this gold discussion forum are a treasure trove of information to educate investors about protecting their wealth through portfolio diversification with private gold ownership. The discussion forum also covers the wider issues of the past, present, and future role of gold in international monetary policy and the dynamics of the modern gold markets...   (Discussion Forum Hall of Fame) (The Gold Trail) ("Thoughts!" by ANOTHER)   The opinions posted by all guests are expressly their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the management or staff of USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals. The hosting of the public discussion shall therefore not be construed as an endorsement by USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals of any of the opinions posted here.

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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 7/4/2000
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

(Yesterday's Discussion.)

tedw (07/04/00; 23:49:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 33189)
God Bless America
http://www.usagold.com

There is no country on this earth that has a more marvelous heritage than we.

One cannot look at the history of the birth of this nation and help but see a divine hand shaping his purposes. I think there must be a tear in the eye of the Heavenly Father when he sees how far we have fallen from what we should be.

God Bless America once again, and save us from our sins.

Journeyman (07/04/00; 23:38:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 33188)
Is gold too expensive to be efficient for use as money?
http://www.mises.org/humanaction.asp

SOMETHING won't allow me to post the answer to question 5, so #&@*##, I guess I'll try the "answer" to 6.

Question 6: Is gold too expensive to be efficient for use as
money?

From the point of view of this insight [that the
quantity Langà25H2(3`fafa
ÈGET /orgs/cess/postpolio/poliomyelitis.html HTTP/1.1
Accept: image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, image/jpeg, image/pjpeg, application/vnd.ms-excel, application/msword, application/vnd.ms-powerpoint, */*
Referer: http://google.yahoo.com/bin/query?p

Journeyman (07/04/00; 23:28:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 33187)
#@*#%

For some EXTREMELY frustrating but otherwise unknown reason, I am not able to post the answers to either question 5. or question 6. of the six posed earlier this week end.

Every time I've tried, it locks up the internet for my machine and I can't reach ANY sites anywhere. Never seen anything like it. I've been trying to post these since 4:00 PM MT. Sorry, but I quit for tonight.

Will try again tomorrow.

Perturbed,
Journeyman


Journeyman (07/04/00; 23:22:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 33186)
Is gold too expensive to be efficient for use as money?
http://www.mises.org/humanaction.asp

SOMETHING won't allow me to post the answer to question 5, so #&@*##, I guess I'll try the "answer" to 6.

Question 6: Is gold too expensive to be efficient for use as
money?

From the point of view of this insight [that the
quantity s 95P

THX-1138 (07/04/00; 22:43:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 33185)
Movie Review of "The Patriot"
I watched The Patriot twice.
It was not a historically accurate film, and I would consider it more a political film than anything else.

There is a scene where a British Colonel says he knows the rules of war, but has to play outside them to deal with "The Ghost" (Mel Gibson). You could consider this to be an allusion to Bill Clinton knowing the rules of the Constitution but bending and circumventing them for his own purposes.

There was the church burning. Janet Reno and the Waco compound burning.

There is the scene with the guy talking about King George cutting off his leg through taxes. That could be thought of as the IRS and all the "new" stealth taxes being slapped on the poor Americans.

There is the scene with the young boys given guns to shoot the British, or the young kids coming to the swamp with their fathers to join the militia. 2nd Ammendment rights being used and a BOLD finger to the gun control crowd.

Great flick. Two thumbs up. Would give it a 3 1/2 stars.
Not as good as Saving Private Ryan, but ranks up next to Braveheart(also not historically accurate).

Journeyman (07/04/00; 22:37:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 33184)
Test

Been trying to post answer to question for 5 hours! Is it the message or is it the medium?

Sorry, j.


SHIFTY (07/04/00; 22:30:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 33183)
April Morning
A good film if you can find it. 1988: Tommy Lee Jones, Robert Urich, Chad Low, Susan Blakely, Meredith Salenger, Rip Torn.
Based on Howard Fast's novel, this is a personal saga of the American Revolutionary War, detailing a young man's traumatic transition to manhood on the eve of the battle at Lexington and Concord.
I like this film and it is rare to see it on TV.
"Pure Gold" so as not to be too off topic.

$hifty

Galearis (07/04/00; 21:24:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 33182)
@ Al Fulchino re: the Patriot...
At the risk of starting a food fight (perish the thought), my idea of a good historical movie is one which blends accuracy with fiction such that one does not preclude the other. To do otherwise fosters and reinforces mythologies which are probably best left to extinction from a society's collective psyche. There really is no valid reason for inaccuracy except laxity. I for one do not like seeing anachronisms in films for the same reason.

Further to the defense, idealism is by its very nature mired in myth. Have you ever noticed that the best war movies (to keep with this theme) are anti-war movies - simply because they try to be real to their subject matter.

On the other hand, I LOVE a good action movie, if it is well done. However, the good ones don't ressemble comic books, and one can see that the actions of the casts in the plot are feasible and hence work better.

The same can be said for the tawdriest film genre, the horror film.
Alien (my personal favourite) worked best because it was treated as a reality trip by the director (Scott). The only movie that REALLY was scary for me.

Best regards,

G.

P.S. I haven't seen the Patriot. My post was from an email from Rhody who saw it recently. The film seemed to be getting rave reviews so I thought I would throw a little of his water on the fire. Also the one criticism I heard from Ebert on his show dwelled upon certain staginess of some of the scenes. This is also a form of idealism of presentation.

Journeyman (07/04/00; 21:13:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 33181)
ORO, Holtzman, Al Fulchino, ALL: GREAT posts today!!!
Al Fulchino msg#: 33135 A Call to All Who Would be Patriots
Here here Al Fulchino!!

ORO, No Shudders here either.

Holtzman, it isn't the British. It isn't the Americans either.

It's the so-called leaders:

"It is not civilizations that promote clashes. They
occur when old-fashioned leaders look for old-fashioned
ways to solve problems ..." -Kenichi Ohmae, _The End Of
The Nation State_, (New York: The Free Press 1995), p.
11.

Regards,
Journeyman


Galearis (07/04/00; 21:00:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 33180)
silver...
This is a FWIW about a little solid indication of a silver shortage.

Just an observation: the scrap silver price spreads are narrowing at Kitco. The prices are also up, and this is not what the graphs would have one believe. Pure silver is $.207CAN and sterling $.192CAN. The change occurred sometime in the last two days. The market is tightening.
Paper/physical prices separating? Maybe....

Best regards,

G.

Leland (07/04/00; 20:38:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 33179)
Lady Leigh, you are too Benevolent...I Have a 6 Year-old Greatgranddaughter...I Urge her to Read USAGold...She Does, When She's not in the Swimming Pool
.

Leigh (07/04/00; 20:28:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 33178)
Leland (and Skinny)
Leland, I'm not offended - I'm actually glad to see Skinny's post! I was afraid he had gotten banished. I like all the Kitco posters. Skinny is welcome to come over here if he ever wishes to; we will dub him Sir Skinny, and he can be a noble hunting hound or a Corgi or something.

Leland (07/04/00; 20:12:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 33177)
Lady Leigh, Don't pay any Attention...What a Difference! And, Thank you, Michael for Providing this Opportunity to Discuss our Concerns!
"Date: Tue Jul 04 2000 21:48
skinny (Got my name mentioned) ID#28994:
over on dat 2 bit site...were deh call themselves..sir. and think they are old English
knights or summptin...whata buncha jerks..
Stoopin pretty low when deh gotta mention a common mongrel..
GGGgrrrr bark bark"

Leland (07/04/00; 19:34:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 33176)
Texas Ain't What it Used to be...Oil Companies are Moving out...Don't Count on Texas to Increase Production...
(I found this in a London newspaper. Probably the editors
in the U.S. would squelch this story.)....

Texas in a mess as the oil runs out
By David Wastell in Victoria, Texas

King Ranch, Inc.

Texas Railroad
Commission

Central Texas Oil
Patch Museum

TEXANS are turning their back on oil and their attention to the environment
after almost a century of believing that the best thing about their state was the
"black gold" that lay far beneath their feet.

The pungent whiff of crude oil that still wafts through the oak trees and grassy
pastures of the McFaddin Ranch once spelt vast riches for ranchers such as
Jan Wheelis, and a bounty for every Texan: enough tax and other revenue to
endow schools, build universities and construct thousands of miles of highways.

Now it has acquired a different meaning: rusting well-heads, dead pastures and
polluted water supplies, the mess left behind by an industry in decline. Between
1990 and 1999 oil production in Texas fell 37 per cent from 642 million barrels
to 407 million a year. Ranchers face falling royalty payments and a growing
threat to their land from poorly-maintained or abandoned oil wells.

With the fall in production tax revenues have plummeted while residents of
Texas's sprawling cities worry about the water they drink and the air they
breathe, both rendered suspect by the production and consumption of oil.

Mrs Wheelis, 60, whose grandfather founded the McFaddin Ranch 130 miles
south of Houston in 1878, readily admits that over the years her family have
benefitted greatly from their oil rights. In the peak year, 1978, the 75,000-acre
estate, now divided between herself and nine cousins, earned tens of thousands
of dollars in royalties each month.

Now that flow of cash is down to a relative trickle - "just cigarettes and gas
money", as she put it bitterly - but she is left with a mass of rusting equipment
and many patches of polluted land. She threw a stone into what appeared to be
a large mud-filled pit last week to watch the resulting splash. There was a
revolting orange-brown sheen on the sludge. "That's oil," she said. "We've lost a
cow in here before."

At a still active well, her partner, David Moore, pointed out severely corroding
pipes and the absence of bolts to hold down a Heath Robinson-like contraption,
designed to separate oil from the water that comes up with it. "Can you imagine
what it would be like if this blew?" he asked. "I don't like standing here, it's too
risky."

For the past nine years Mrs Wheelis has been fighting with the small oil
companies responsible for the 16 producing or recently abandoned oil wells and
the myriad of pipelines on her land. A further 57 wells have long since shut
down, although she is not sure if they have been properly capped.

Her experience is mirrored by ranchers across Texas, who in the past year
have formed a new alliance, the Texas Land and Mineral Owners' Association,
to try to force a crackdown on oil firms that walk away from their
responsibilities.

The big-name oil companies with headquarters in Houston and Dallas have
steadily pulled out of Texas, focusing on other more profitable corners of the
world. Their wells have been sold to smaller producers who have struggled to
make money from the oddments of oil left, but are often either unwilling or
unable to clear up the mess created.

Doug Beveridge, who manages land and oil resources for the giant King Ranch
in South Texas and is closely involved with the new group, said: "The old
oilfields are the worst, where a lot of the mess never got cleared up. As they
became depleted the larger companies sold out to little companies without such
deep pockets. They are the ones that go bankrupt or just shut down, leaving
others to clear up the mess."

The result is hundreds of square miles of "dead land", where the ground is
polluted either by sickly-smelling oil leaks or by the salt water that was mixed
underground with the oil, and was allowed to run off on the surface. Here
nothing will grow, and short of carting away tons of soil there is no easy way to
clean up.

Ranchers said their campaign has nothing to do with the presidential aspirations
of Texas governor George W Bush, nor do they blame him for what has
happened.

Mr Moore said: "Landowners are just now learning that the rules and
regulations that are supposed to be in place are not strict enough and are not
being enforced. It's not just under Bush, it's been going on for 20 years."

Across Texas there are an estimated 25,000 abandoned oil wells, and a further
15,000 lying idle but unplugged as cash-strapped companies balk at paying the
£3,000 needed to seal them with cement. Until the last few days, a loophole in
Texas law allowed them to pay a mere £68 per year to postpone plugging
disused wells. Meanwhile pipes are corroding, maintenance is being cut to a
minimum and leaks are beginning to sprout.

There are now signs, particularly in the huge oilfields around Midland, which
supplied most of America's crude during the Second World War, that salt water
and oil residues are seeping into the underground aquifers used for crop
irrigation and city water supplies.

The Texas Railroad Commission, the industry's official watchdog, has been
widely criticised for being too lax with the small companies that have taken on
the ageing wells. A Houston-based executive for one of America's big oil
companies said: "If you're like us you have your name everywhere and you
won't want to be caught with poorly managed wells. But if you're just a little
local company, why should you worry? You can just walk away."

Mrs Wheelis is trying to diversify her ranch away from cattle, corn and other
crops by attracting hunters who will pay to shoot on her land, and by introducing
nature tours.

Even though more than one million Texans still receive oil royalty payments
there is a growing awareness of how the industry that made Texas rich in the
last century is putting its 21st century future at stake. As Mrs Wheelis put it:
"The fact is that right now water is becoming a more valuable commodity than
oil."

(Fair Use For Educational/Research Purposes Only.)

Al Fulchino (07/04/00; 19:25:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 33175)
(No Subject)
Galearis (07/04/00; 10:59:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 33148)
@ Al Fulchino re: "The Patriot"
A predisposition to a liking of a movie is usually confirmed with a thrilling experience. However, a more objective appreciation for accuracy and history may foster a different result:
*********
I saw the Patriot with my wife yesterday. It's about an american hero, played by an Australian who was really a slave owning, philandering despot, who had a reputation of atrocity in a previous Indian/French campaign. In short, a typical Hollywood fabrication. For me, the knowledge of the reality spoiled the movie.

Rhody.
*********
But then again one shouldn't really be too hard on a movie if it is a little weak on morality and ethics, it's only entertainment. Remember the "Godfather"? Another fascinating movie that did not have a moral position.

Like Rhody, however, I think it would have been better if they had picked a lead who wasn't a citizen of the British Commonwealth. The tyranny of the dollar strikes again.....

Best regards,

G.
All Points noted, yet the message for me is simple and even can make me shudder at its reality. Have you, Galearis, ever felt you were being pushed around? If so, did you ever see it so clearly that you knew you just had to speak up? I am sure you have. You knew that at that point, rubber was going to meet the road. Either you were going to get fair treatment <not extra special, just fair> or you were goingto tuck your tail. As you watched the movie with your wife and saw the militia standing before the Britsh Regulars do you wonder if they were concerned about how hollywood would treat them years down the road? What of the fellow who had a cannonball kiss his face? What of his compatriots? At their moment of truth many of them stared down deaths face, but thankfully they had weapons of their own. If the knowledge of the historical reality soiled your enjoyment, then with all due respect, I think passion and idealism has left your heart.


Al Fulchino (07/04/00; 19:07:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 33174)
tedw (07/04/00: 33153)Holtzman (07/04/00; #: 33155
ted, hope all is well with you. I agree with your point about more Declaration info. But all in all this was wonderful. Going deep into the movie is not good for those who have not plunked down their gold, but as far as hollywood fare goes, I say, Good job! It isn't "Saving Private Ryan", but it is a wonderful, entertaining reminder of what we do not remember frequently enough <I speak more of myself>

"Holtzman (07/04/00; 14:10:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 33155)
Let Freedom Ring Indeed
We are more alike than different"

AF: God Bless


Al Fulchino (07/04/00; 18:56:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 33173)
SHIFTY (7/4/2000; 9:21:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 33145)
Shifty, That was an interesting link you made with the toilets <smile> I do get your connection. Perhaps we could accrue "water rights" for time we ah....er.....ummmm
"hold it" for the lack of a better and more graphic way of putting it. THAT WAY, we could get two or more flushes per toilet encounter. Think about it, you could even sell your excess rights. <smile> I smell a business opportunity<laughing>

Al Fulchino (07/04/00; 18:49:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 33172)
(No Subject)
Netking (7/4/2000; 1:44:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 33139)
Al Fulchino Re;'A Call to All Who Would be Patriots'
Al Fulchino spare a thought for the British and 'what might have been'!



Dear Netking, I am not sure what direction you were going with your post. I say that to explain that I wondered if you wished to explore all the wonderful possibilities had the British chosen to treat their American colony differently. Can you imagine how wonderful it would have been to have dear old Maggie Thatcher and Ronald Reagan serve 16 years back to back? We are, of course, an extension of all that is and was good with the old empire,as well as what bad can happen and I MUST say that if there was another continent to settle, we would be very close right now to having our own revolution on our hands. The other point I thought you might be heading towards was to have some feeling for the British themselves. I am not sure. Perhaps you could clarify.


Leigh (07/04/00; 18:42:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 33171)
Replies
Aristotle, thank you again for answering my question. I did get some new insight from Strad Master's kind response.

And thank you, Leland! I'd never read Bill Murphy's interview before, so it was interesting information.

Happy Fourth, everyone -- even Mr. Holtzman, who has probably already started July 5th.

CoBra(too), are you still with us? My birthday is coming up in two weeks. If you're reading this, would you please post a picture of a cake for my birthday? Probably all of us remember the scrumptious chocolate torte you posted for Megan's birthday last fall.

Aristotle (07/04/00; 18:19:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 33170)
For Leigh
I suddenly find myself very short on time--friends coming over to celebrate the day. Sorry that I haven't given adequate attention to your last request of me, but I see that Strad Master offered an answer that was good as Gold, and hard to improve upon. Keep in mind also that the contracts that constitute "paper gold" come in a wide assortment of design, each serving slightly different purposes in the overall orchestration giving us Gold at these prices in these times.

Gold. Get you some at great rates of exchange. ---Aristotle

SHIFTY (07/04/00; 17:58:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 33169)
Leland
Thank you! I dont remember the interview.I will enjoy reading it.

$hifty

Aristotle (07/04/00; 17:43:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 33168)
You were very helpful for me, Mr. Gresham!
The thoughts you offered to me in your post (7/2/2000; 8:12:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 33096) helped alert me to something that I hadn't considered in my attempts to communicate effectively with my fellow man and fellow Goldhearts. You said--

"Do gold advocates want to strip away all their illusions? ... We couldn't if we wanted to. They will do it to themselves, in time. Just not when we think they ought."

When I read that a bell sounded in the back of my mind--like I was the clapper when the Liberty Bell cracked. You are absolutely right! But it isn't so much that I think my fellow Gold advocates "ought" to see things differently under a timeframe of certain design. Rather, I see how their affinity to Gold brings many of them so close to "economic enlightenment" (and the attendant economic peace of mind,) and yet they remain in turmoil because they don't allow themselves to see things with an ever-so-slightly-different perspective.

In raising my awareness to this element--that some people will always choose to cling steadfast to their own illusions which have over time become an integral part of their identity--you have also served to confirm my thoughts that a different posting approach was in order for me. I have already embarked upon one approach (the designated door mat) which will continue, and as time allows I shall offer an assortment of posts that may be my most effective means to convey some of my ideas. I'll be calling them "The Evolution and Confessions of an Unrepentant Gold Advocate." They will chronicle the path in which I went from being a normal (and happy) person to becoming an even happier and contented Golden-eyed citizen of the World. I'll focus on the missteps I made along the way and how I worked through the pitfalls.

But before I wrap up this post, let me make one quick suggestion/alteration to a portion of your commentary. You said--

"The difference between gold and fiat's seems to be the eternal tension between Man's successes and Nature's endurance. Man can cook up some amazing constructs. The power of illusion. The power of agreement. Fiat currency, like gold, is NOT really anyone's liability. But it exists and carries value by mutual agreement and expectation. This could change at ANY moment -- but probably will not vanish overnight. So the only question is when and how. Once we have prepared our golden refuge, we may join others as curious observers to our own species' glorious folly. ... Nature created gold, just as it created Man's genetic code, and occasionally Man has to acknowledge Nature's work as more enduring than his own."

Great stuff. Yet I would offer an important elaboration on your excellent observation that "fiat currency, like gold, is NOT really anyone's liability." So true! On the face of it, some people might balk, and say "No way!" and point out that this runs counter to my own Saturday comment to ORO where I suggested that "the core of the financial system is The Effort to Service Debts." However, careful consideration will reveal that the dollar currency in your hand is, in fact, NOT in a practical sense a liability. It is a unit of account and a medium of exchange--and precious little else. It is just as you say, Mr Gresham. The Liability that so many Gold advocates point to is misplaced if they point to the dollar. The Liability is found in the terms of the loan and the borrower's promise to repay that which is borrowed.

To state it again, and more clearly, the dollar itself in not a liability, it is just a tool for commerce--an undefined and shifting unit of account which also serves as a medium of exchange. Here's the important part. As a helpful tool for commerce, the dollar is altogether inappropriate for use as savings in and of itself or as a means to denominate your wealth in contract form.

A good carpenter doesn't use a hammer to cut lumber, but that doesn't mean he has no use for a hammer. Of equal note, he does not build a foundation upon a puff of air.

Gold. Get you some. ---Aristotle

PS. I appreciate your comments directed to me and ORO, "Two fine minds meeting -- just trying to grease the interface!" Almost every time I read ORO's replies to my questions and comments I can see how fundamentally close we are. Our differences often come down to that of style and articulation, for which ORO certainly earns the greater praise.

Leland (07/04/00; 17:35:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 33167)
Sir Shifty, Here's the Link...An' I'm Still Laughing About Your "Plunger Story"
http://www.kitco.com/Murphy.htm
.

SHIFTY (07/04/00; 17:32:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 33166)
Leland
When was the interview with Bill Murphy?
Do you have a date?

Leland (07/04/00; 16:56:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 33165)
Lady Leigh, Thank you for Bringing up the Subject...
Our friend, Bill Murphy is also working on the problem. Here's a part of his interview on Kitco...

<snip> "After the wartime modifications to Fort Knox were made, over 10 years were
allowed to pass before the next major step in 1954. At that time a super-secret
complete inventory was taken of the Fort Knox gold. This was not the same as a
relatively cursory audit, so-called, of the gold which was done in 1953. The
project in 1954 involved a complete count with weighing and assay sampling of all
the gold there--about three-quarters of a million 400-ounce bars worth a total of
12-billion dollars ( $12,000,000,000 ) at that time, and that was at the old price
of $35 per ounce. That's twice as much as the Treasury ever claims to have now,
and even these claims are complete lies. In addition to all the weighing, counting,
and checking against records, the 1954 inventory included the extraction of a plug
of gold from every one-hundredth bar for assaying, and these samples were sent
to Assay Offices all around the country to minimize the chance of any collusion to
falsify the results. This seemingly enormous job was kept completely secret, and
was completed in only nine weeks. All of the gold was, of course, in the Central
Core Vault at that time--none was in the bird-cage compartments..

"The contrast with the so-called GAO audit of the Fort Knox gold last fall can
hardly be overstated. The alleged gold stock in 1974 was only half as large, and
they can only claim to have examined about 20% of that. Assay samples were
only taken from only about every thousandth bar--they were not plugged but
merely small chips were taken which could be taken from a corner, say, without
cutting through into the lead underneath. All the 99 samples were sent to a single
location, the New York Assay Office, and only 54 of these have ever been stated
to have been returned--with undefined results.

"Finally, the results of the alleged 1974 GAO audit--which was performed, by the
way, by 13 Treasury employees and only two GAO representatives--have never
been published. The closest thing to it is a ridiculous little document printed in
February 1975, which presents no findings of fact concerning the gold and timidly
says only "We believe" the gold is there!

"But returning to the 1954 gold inventory, the question arises:

"Why was it a secret? After all, the law requires an annual physical inventory of
the nation's gold reserves.

"This law has been generally circumvented and ignored; but one would think that
when its requirements were satisfied for once, in 1954, the fact would have been
made public. The reason for the secrecy of the comprehensive 1954 inventory,
my friends, is that its purpose was not that defined by law. Instead, the
Rockefeller interests were simply taking stock of the American gold reserves
which they intended to start spiriting away a few years later." ( from the Beter
tapes; 1975 )

It is interesting that GATA is still asking the same question as Dr. Beter asked in
1975: What has become of America's gold reserves? Who owns it? Does the
Federal Reserve own the gold that was once stored in Fort Knox? Or is it still
owned by the Treasury of the United States? In the absence of proper audits (
that Beter claimed should have been carried out every year ) , who is now
responsible for America's gold reserves? Is there any gold in Fort Knox at all? Is
GATA willing to step up to the plate with these questions and find out for the
American people what has happened America's gold? Is GATA serious about a
public audit of America's gold reserves?

Americans would like to know!"

Leigh (07/04/00; 16:08:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 33164)
Gold for Oil?
I may have this all mixed up, because I'm not sure I really understand things thoroughly, but has anyone thought that there might be a relationship between the trial balloon about selling our national gold and the fact that oil prices are going down? Could it be that gold is being traded for oil?

ORO (07/04/00; 15:58:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 33163)
Holtzman - Shudders
The thought did pass through my mind, but the expected shudder did not come. Just a slight sense of panic accompanying the sadness at the prospect of so many dead people and the feeling of a door opening to new possibilities. The initial reaction though, was the feeling that this would be a shock.

Some of the possibilities seen through the imaginary open door did make me shudder, others filled me with hope.

I am sad to say that my response would be similar to that of many.

Perhaps we should all go through this exercize to see what our reactions are.



Henri (07/04/00; 15:36:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 33162)
Sir Perplexed (07/01/00; 20:21:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 33088)
Excellant piece! I have added it to my personal archives.
Peace be with you brother.

Usul (07/04/00; 15:10:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 33161)
Up to their ears in debt!
http://www.dismal.com/thoughts/th_cc_063000.asp
Risky Debt Service Burdens, By Celia Chen
The Dismal Scientist, 6/39/00 4:12 PM ET

"Many worry that a stock market crash will end this expansion. While a sudden loss of confidence in the economy may show up in stock prices first and produce a snowballing effect, the debt side of the nation's balance sheet poses as much downside risk for the economy as the equity side. In fact, household indebtedness arguably poses a larger downside risk for a slowing economy than a stock market crash.

The main problem is that indebtedness is concentrated among lower income households who have fewer financial resources to fall back on should they lose a job or even lose some overtime hours and thus are at greater risk of defaulting on their loans. In a worst case scenario, enough households could default to trigger failures in the finance industry that would send the economy into a recession, similar to the real estate crisis of the early 1990s..."


Usul (07/04/00; 15:05:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 33160)
Piling up debt
http://www.cnbc.com/commentary/commentary_full_story_stocks.asp?StoryID=19090
All-American Borrowing Binge
by Garret Glaser, CNBC Reporter
Jul 3 2000 4:15PM ET

"Once upon a time, American consumers frowned on piling up debt, but not anymore. Despite the record incomes Americans enjoy these days, new research indicates that consumers and businesses are on a real borrowing binge.
Wednesday's issue of The Wall Street Journal will take a look at the problem of debt overload in the United States, and CNBC's Garrett Glaser has a preview.

U.S. corporate debt is up 67 percent in the past five years to $4.5 trillion. And household borrowing is up 60 percent to $6.5 trillion...

Bankruptcies, though off record highs, are still way up. Approximately 1.3 percent of all U.S. households filed for bankruptcy last year, up from 0.8 percent five years ago.

And growth in the U.S. economy is slowing...

If unemployment jumps from 4 percent to 5.5 percent, millions could feel the pinch.

And because so many homebuyers are now putting down 5 percent or less on a mortgage, the fear is that they will simply default if they have to.

That's what happened in California in the early 90s. When home values tanked, mortgage defaults jumped. Home buyers simply "gave it back to the bank" rather than try to work out payments...

If that happens on a big scale, the government's Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac agencies, which buy and guarantee mortgages, could be hurt..."


ET- thanks for the July 4th wishes; I thank you
(not as one of the "old enemy", here in England,
but in the spirit of freedom that is embodied in
the US Constitution) and may I offer good wishes to
all in the same spirit.


Henri (07/04/00; 15:05:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 33159)
"Patriot"/Occum's Razor
If two or more theories explain the same observations, the principle of Occum's Razor states that the simplest theory is the best.

All the Colonists were not clear about why there was armed insurrection against the "crown". Occum had the advantage of a rather simplistic view of things.





Henri (07/04/00; 14:57:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 33158)
"Patriot"
Aussie though he is, I thought Mel portayed the part well. Just glad I'm colorblind!

Henri (07/04/00; 14:52:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 33157)
"Patriot"
Saw it...liked it. Powerful movie. On reflection, I think the strongest sub-message was the story of the slave "Occum". He started off having less than nothing...he was offered up by his master to take his master's place on the battle line. In the end he stood a "free" man by virtue of having fought for 12 mo. for the Continental Army. Occum then had pretty much the same as everyone else (nothing)but was far ahead of where he had been. There is a well defined line between overt slavery and indebtedness to bankers. The latter is a matter of choice. Is the line as well defined when a bureaucracy imposes heavy taxation...even with representation?

I suppose those who have less than nothing now but do not realize it,(the heavily leveraged) may enjoy a "liberation" of sorts when financial markets collapse. They will then see that all they thought they had was but an illusion of the credit/indebtedness game. Unlike Occum, I sense there will be a profound sense of loss rather than a birthing of hope. I wonder if the name is significant? (Occum's razor?)

When the playing field is leveled the question remains...who were the fools? An individual or family who lived below their means and retained earnings in liquid form, or he who leveraged the high life to exhaustion of the priviledge?

Until that question is resolved, (a necessity drawn from the arrogance/vanity of mankind) the end of the crisis and initiation of the recovery will be beyond grasp.

A moment of truth will come when decisions need to be made.

Those who feel themselves impoverished (I'm guessing the majority) will scream for the heads of those who lived frugally...that their advantage be neutralized. They will be the "new" carpetbaggers.

With the appearence of govt. confiscation of private capital, the field will truly be leveled.

If democracy rules, justice for the individual will depart. Such will be the fall of the once greatest republic these times have known.




Journeyman (07/04/00; 14:23:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 33156)
Does government/Federal Reserve monetary control serve the common good?
http://www.mises.org/humanaction.asp

Quesiton 4: Does government/Federal Reserve monetary control
serve the common good?

The choice of the good [as in "trade good" -j.] to
be employed as a medium of exchange and as money is
never indifferent. It determines the course of the
cash-induced changes [currently referred to as
"inflation" or "deflation" -j.] in purchasing power.
The question is only who should make the choice: the
people buying and selling on the market, or the
government?

....Whatever a government does in the pursuit of aims
to influence the height of purchasing power depends
necessarily upon the rulers' personal value judgments.
It always furthers the interests of some groups of
people at the expense of other groups. It never serves
what is called the commonweal or the public welfare.

-Ludwig von Mises, Human Action A Treatise on Economics, Third
Revised Edition (Chicago, Illinois: Contemporary Books, Inc.
1966), pg. 422 [XVII. INDIRECT EXCHANGE 6. Cash-Induced and
Goods-Induced Changes in Purchasing Power -available also from
http://www.mises.org/humanaction.asp]

In case you tuned in late, this post is Mises "answer" to
question 4. of the following six posed in an earlier post: 1.
Why has the word "inflation" become confusing? What are the
results of this confusion?

2. What did Charles DeGaulle mean by "extravagant privilege?
What's another little-used word for it? What would happen if
"the privilege" were exercized world-wide?

3. Did markets and the people choose paper money over gold? If
not, who did?

4. Does government/Federal Reserve monetary control serve the
common good?

5. Is there enough gold for the world to go back on the gold
standard?

6. Is gold too expensive to be efficient for use as money? |cm:NoShortageOfGold


Holtzman (07/04/00; 14:10:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 33155)
Let Freedom Ring Indeed
http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/Saturday-Times/timwekfas02001.html
Holtzman here,
--------------
We are more alike than different
--------------

I hope all of you in the U.S. are having a wonderful celebration. Over here, we tend to set off our fireworks on Guy Fawkes day, but for somewhat related reasons: Fawkes' original plan in 1605 was to set off his explosives in the cellars beneath the House of Lords whilst King James I was opening Parliament. Fawkes' plot was uncovered, he was put to death rather horribly, and a lot of the people sympathetic to his cause spent the following two years preparing to depart England forever. They named their New World settlement Jamestown in order to placate the king whose wrath they were trying to evade.

A century and a half later, their descendants Washington and Jefferson finally finished the job. Although they didn't kill George III or blow up Parliament, Americans did become the first English subjects to permanently throw off monarchy. Since then, most of Ireland has followed suit, Australia nearly did recently, and new Labour is doing its level best here at home. A charismatic and beloved monarch might yet hold the traditions together, but sadly all we've got is Charles. So it goes.

Yet to this day Englishmen annually rejoice in Guy Fawkes' failure, even those who most ardently crave the end of monarchy. Why rejoice? I daresay even those of you who spell Clinton with a K would shudder at the thought of a briefcase-sized nuclear device going off in the midst of a State of the Union speech.

I'm somewhat disturbed by early reports of Mel Gibson's most recent movie, because according to the reviewers it paints a very we/they schism between decent Americans on the one hand and nearly Hitlerian Britons on the other. But truth be known, the average British commoner was far from hateful of Americans. Indeed, a lot of my ancestors were (quietly of course) cheering your ancestors on. Colonists weren't the only subjects who thought George III was unfit to govern, nor were they the only subjects who resented having soldiers ransack houses in search of inappropriate numbers of guns, smuggled (and therefore untaxed) contraband, all the old familiar crimes against the state.

You and we are the same people (well, a lot of us and a lot of you are distant cousins, put it that way) and neither of us ever wants to face the day when we stand helpless whilst soldiers shoot our children in front of us. It is important to remember, however, that in every war that's ever been fought, the vast majority of the soldiers are terrified youths who just want to see home again.

But yes, in every war, there are also the (thankfully few) sadists who relish the opportunities for horror which war provides. Bear in mind, though, that for every redcoat atrocity in 1770s America (not to mention here in England), there was a comparable atrocity in 1960s Vietnam (not to mention Kent State). Indeed, Vietnam was to Johnson's administration what the revolt of the Colonies was to George III's: conquest that was doomed to failure from the start because the people under attack were united.

It all comes down to a simple reality: the only people who live free are those who have the capacity to defend themselves, and that hasn't changed since the Picts kept the Roman army out of Scotland nearly two thousand years ago. Let freedom ring indeed.


--------------
Right, enough pathos for now
--------------

I must tell you a story. A music professor I once knew, Ian MacFadden, spent his summers in America reawakening the ancient art of playing the pipes among descendants of long-sundered Scottish émigrés. One summer, he was in the mountains of North Carolina, and as it happened he was to be there over the Fourth of July. A few days prior, during a quiet moment, he found himself on the camp's veranda chatting with one of the students, a boy of perhaps twelve years and possessed of the most impressive American accent.

The subject of conversation turned naturally towards the upcoming ho-down (spelling?) and the boy innocently asked Ian, "Is there a Fourth of July in Scotland?"

Oh dear, Ian suddenly realised with embarrassment, what a limited education this poor boy has had. "Ach no, lad," he began, trying to think of the most polite way to explain this, when the boy said with a devilish grin, "Well, what else comes between the third and the fifth?" Gotten. Utterly gotten. By a twelve year old. And Ian chased that twelve year old about half a mile, laughing despite himself, but he never did catch the lad. Twelve year olds accelerate down mountainsides at a substantially faster rate than do fifty year olds. Fortunately for him!

--------------
Well, it's a start
--------------

[see link at top]
According to The Times, the whims of fashion show signs of finally turning back to embrace gold. Evidently silver is no longer sufficient when one wishes to flaunt wealth on one's clothing, and I should imagine the insane prices of the other white precious metals have ruled them out as an alternative. Besides, the ultimate fashion failure would be to acquire a £5000 platinum necklace only to have others think it a £50 silver one.

Go gold!

Yours,
I.V. Holtzman

Aristotle (07/04/00; 13:25:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 33154)
A kernel of truth
I'm not a disciple of Heilbroner by any stretch of the imagination, but on occasion I've been impressed at his ability to turn a phrase. I believe this is close to one of his quips--

"Mathematics has given rigor to the study of economics, but alas, also mortis."

If I have incorrectly attributed it, no matter. The point I'm making is that economic thought is accessible to everyone, and the great tragedy is that more people don't dabble in economic thought because they are unnecessarily intimidated or else distracted by the thin outer shell of seemingly rigorous mathematics. The more you see economics for what it really is, the more you see the importance of Gold's role in the grand scheme of life on Earth.

And in recognition of this special day,
Economic Freedom. Get you some. ---Aristotle

tedw (07/04/00; 13:20:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 33153)
The Patriot
http://www.usagold.com

Braveheart being one of my favorite movies with Mel Gibson,I couldnt wait to go see the Patriot.It was an interesting enjoyable movie and it does help people to appreciate the sacrifices made during the Revolution. I recommend spending some Gold and going to see it.

In all objectivity however, I have to say I found the movie a little flawed. Mostly in the obvious imitation of Braveheart.
One scene Mell Gibson stakes a charging horse in the chest just like they did in Braveheart. Also the story of rebellion being sparked by a sons death is very reminescent of the rebellion being sparked by his wife death in Braveheart. And the hand to hand battle scences are very reminiscent of Braveheart. I would have to say it is somewhat of an imitation movie, but well done nevertheless.

Personally, I would have enjoyed it a little more if some of the actual history of the Declaration and The Constitution would have been shown.

But, all in all, good fare and maybe it will help the average American to appreciate the sacrifices that were made for him.

ET (07/04/00; 13:02:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 33152)
Usul

Hey Usul - thanks for the links! Yes, it appears we are headed for another government-sponsored bailout (read monetization), of the 'new' S&L's. You can probably grab your history book at this point and see exactly who won and who lost in the last extravaganza for clues as to the outcome this time.

I suspect new money will be created when needed through the end of the year. The GSE's are political institutions. However once the election is over, things could change. It seems the only thing keeping this afloat is debtor confidence. I see today we are treated to the news that oil prices will soon return to 'normal' thereby allowing consumers to resume their borrowing just in the nick of time.

From Jim Grant's site:

"Like a commuter who shuttles
between Scarsdale and Wall Street, the
credit markets travel from Stringency
to Accommodation (and back again).
No timetable is published for the
cyclical journey of lenders and
borrowers, but an alert traveler can
orient himself just by looking out the
window. For instance, the rise in
junk-bond defaults, the troubles in
syndicated lending, the widening of
credit spreads, the expressed anxiety of
the banking regulators and the
disclosure last week by Wachovia Corp.
of a $200 million addition to its
bad-loan reserve all point to the
obvious conclusion that the train of
credit is fast approaching the city limits
of Stringency."

All Aboard! Happy Fourth Usul!




Gandalf the White (07/04/00; 11:34:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 33151)
The date of July 17 pops up again !
http://www.smh.com.au/news/0007/05/business/business10.html
Bank of Japan gets radical: it could raise rates
By MICHAEL MILLETT in Tokyo
The issue could be decided on July 17, when the central bank board meets to frame interest rate policy.
====
Wishful thinking!
GO YELLOW Stuff!!
<;-)

Leigh (07/04/00; 11:02:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 33150)
Censorship at Kitco Utopia
Five or six weeks ago, wasn't USAGOLD being loudly accused of censorship by those on other gold forums? Wasn't Kitco held up as a utopian website where all views were welcome and self-policing ruled? Well, well, how life has changed in the past two weeks at Kitco Utopia. Posters have disappeared stealthily in the night. There is a big warning sign at the top of the forum webpage to any potential disruptive elements. It is understood that the society of Kitco posters must get along.

Right, Skinny?


Usul (07/04/00; 11:02:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 33149)
On Credit Availability, or "Easy Money" (following up on ET's No. 33128)
http://216.46.231.211/Comm%20Archive/markcomm/090899.htm
PrudentBear.com's highlighting of the issue of credit availability is further illustrated by their citation of Charles P. Kindleberger on September 8, 1999. Kindleberger said:

"Before banks had evolved, and afterward, additional means of payment to fuel a speculative mania were available in the virtually infinitely expansible nature of personal credit. For a given banking system at a given time, monetary means of payment may be expanded not only within the existing system of banks, but also by the formation of new banks, the development of new credit instruments, and the expansion of personal credit outside of banks."
(see main link above)

Now let's take a look at the US housing-related government sponsored enterprises (GSEs): the Federal National Mortgage Association (Fannie Mae) and the Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation (Freddie Mac).

"Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are two of America's biggest financial institutions- and also two of its most indebted, with around $1 trillion of debt between them"
The Economist, 15th April 2000
http://www.economist.com/editorial/freeforall/20000415/ld8928.html

Dr. Kurt Richebacher wrote:
"Home mortgage refinancings (refi) have zoomed to levels never seen before. Capitalizing on the decline in longer-term rates, homeowners refinance their mortgages at cheaper rates, frequently taking out larger loans, lowering thus their home equity. Periods of heavy refi activity have always been periods of strong consumer spending. Refi, stocks, home prices, tax refunds, auto bonuses, confidence, etc., are all up..... the financial system is firing on all cylinders to accommodate a consumer spending bubble."

- From "Bouble Trouble" [sic], June 1998, by James R Cook
http://www.investmentrarities.com/6-1998.html

More:
"It was the extraordinary purchases by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the two Washington-based mortgage-buying behemoths, that righted the debt markets, he says. And it was this intervention that set the state for the five-figure Dow Jones Industrial Average. It is the vast expansion in financial credit that has sustained the asset inflation (that's 'bull market' to you CNBC viewers)." Freddie and Fannie, together with the Federal Home Loan Banks, expanded their balance sheets, Noland estimates, some $128 billion from October through December. 'If they hadn't bought all that paper,' he says, 'the hedge funds would have been stuck with it. It would have been a much, much different world."
- Doug Noland
http://www.gloomdoom.com/6-1999.html

More:
"I see Fannie&Freddie as the greatest instigators of credit excess in history. I even go one step further and believe they also create "money". "
- Doug Noland, from The Credit Bubble and its Aftermath:
A Time for Dialogue, one-day symposium hosted by David W. Tice & Associates, Inc., Tuesday, September 21, 1999

http://www.brill.com/economy/messages/3450.html

"Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are the two largest government-sponsored enterprises (GSEs) and suppliers of funds to the one- to four-family housing market in America. A GSE is a privately owned, federally chartered corporation that operates nationally with specialized lending powers. The Congress creates GSEs to correct perceived failures in private credit markets. To assist GSEs in achieving their goals, Congress provides them with explicit subsidies. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, for example, do not pay state and local income tax on their earnings. More important are the implicit subsidies that GSEs receive. Although the federal government has disavowed any legal responsibility for their financial obligations, markets behave as if the federal government would almost surely make good on GSEs' obligations if the GSE could not. This saves the GSEs money by allowing them to borrow at an interest rate that is only slightly above the rate available to the U.S. Treasury"
- Fed bank of Minneapolis, Dec 1996

http://woodrow.mpls.frb.fed.us/pubs/region/96-12/FFrecap.html


Galearis (07/04/00; 10:59:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 33148)
@ Al Fulchino re: "The Patriot"
A predisposition to a liking of a movie is usually confirmed with a thrilling experience. However, a more objective appreciation for accuracy and history may foster a different result:
*********
I saw the Patriot with my wife yesterday. It's about an american hero, played by an Australian who was really a slave owning, philandering despot, who had a reputation of atrocity in a previous Indian/French campaign. In short, a typical Hollywood fabrication. For me, the knowledge of the reality spoiled the movie.

Rhody.
*********
But then again one shouldn't really be too hard on a movie if it is a little weak on morality and ethics, it's only entertainment. Remember the "Godfather"? Another fascinating movie that did not have a moral position.

Like Rhody, however, I think it would have been better if they had picked a lead who wasn't a citizen of the British Commonwealth. The tyranny of the dollar strikes again.....

Best regards,

G.



ORO (07/04/00; 10:53:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 33147)
Journeyman, Turnaround - Martin Shubik paper
http://www.santafe.edu/sfi/publications/Working-Papers/00-03-021.pdf
I have not given the whole paper a thorough reading, but I would like to criticize a couple of points already.

From the text:
It is usual to contrast fiat money with a commodity money in terms of the former having the store of value property purely through the bootstrap of the dynamics of expectations, whereas the latter has an intrinsic store of value in its use in consumption or production. This dichotomy is by no means clean. In fact, in spite of the ideal condition that a trade utilizing an ideal commodity money should be intrinsic value for value, historically gold has usually carried a transactions value premium; i.e. there are individuals around who have no consumption desire for gold but who value it for its services as a means of payment. This observation can be made mathematically rigorous 5

5The condition of enough money is characterized both by the total amount of money in the system and its distribution (taking the transactions technology as given). We specify the three conditions concerning the sufficiency and distribution of money.
Enough money, well distributed An economy will have enough money that is well distributed if at any equilibrium no individual experiences a cash flow constraint.
Enough money, badly distributed An economy will have enough money that is badly distributed if it is possible to redistribute the money such that at an equilibrium no cash flow constraint would be binding for any individual.
Not enough money An economy will not have enough money, if at an equilibrium there is no way to redistribute the money such that all individuals can avoid a cash flow constraint..
When there is not enough money in a society for a given technology the price of gold will go to a premium above its marginal consumption value. Mathematically a shadow price appears for the cash flow constraints which become binding when there is not enough money for transactions.

A reason for an individual to prefer gold as a currency over fiat money was already observed by Ricardo. It amounted to the proposition that trust in gold as a currency is easier than trust in the politicians and bankers who are meant to control the fiat money supply.


Comments:
In this treatment, Shubik ignores a number of issues and ignores the main point of having a commodity money:

1. The trust in political and banking powers has not once been demonstrated to be placed where it belongs. History has revealed repeatedly that neither banking nor government are trustworthy. Analysis of the "natural" character of these "agents" shows that neither is structurally capable of avoiding mismanagement of fiat money. THE EXISTENCE OF FIAT MONEY AND THE CONCEPT OF MONETARY MANAGEMENT ARE INHERENTLY CONTRADICTORY TO PROPER FUNCTION OF THE FINANCIAL MARKETS.
1a. The motivating factors for government and bank issue of money - higher profit for both "agents" than is possible without fiat money - precludes the possibility of sound management. Thus there is a motivational limitation on the proper operation of a fiat monetary system.
1b. The mechanical problem of managing a fiat money system leads to arbitrary settings of interest rates at levels other than those that are needed for "correct" responses of "agents" to the underlying economic conditions. Rather than discovering the appropriate conversion rates for capital and income through demand and supply in the markets, the management function of the monetary authority obfuscates the supply and demand conditions by setting an arbitrary interest rate.

2. Cash flow constraints are NECESSARY for proper function of the financial markets. The liquidity limitations of commodity money systems are not drawbacks but a constructive function.
2a. The cash flows must be restricted in order to avoid the hidden redistribution of control over economic resources to government and banking "agents" from the creators of these resources. Government control is then achieved only through obvious means of taxation, banking is exposed to settlement problems as a result of bad judgments in a system without a government provided lender of last resort. Thus bad banking practices are exposed due to liquidity limitations, and the weak banking practices are eliminated through the bankruptcy courts.
2b. Liquidity limitations are necessary in order to allow transfer of control of economic production from those who have mismanaged their enterprises and necessarily produced losses in a liquidity constrained system, to those who have not produced losses - meaning that they have run their enterprises well and have accumulated funds that can be used to buy the assets of the bankrupt businesses.
2c. The fiat money system is a means to distribute losses from particular "agents" to the whole group of economic "agents" through the mechanics of monetary expansion in a system with no natural cap for monetary expansion.

3. The concentration of decision-making in a limited number of hands instead of the distribution of decision making to all participants is a necessary feature of fiat money, because it must be "managed" by someone. The paucity of inputs into decisions on interest rates and monetary base expansion/contraction leads to a necessary misallocation of economic resources, since only a few of the creators and consumers of these resources can exercise their judgments in the area of interest rates and the definition and size of the monetary base.

4. There is an imaginary component to the value of any money that is based on expectations and the fact of title possession not guaranteeing control over the asset. Only a physical money can provide complete control by the holder of title through the fact of possession. The premium such control may fetch on the markets, is balanced by the discount that a less convenient means of holding money would be given by the markets. When fear of breach of fiduciary responsibilities by monetary "agents" of government and banking is high, the premium for possession would be greater than the discount for inconvenience. When political problems such as war or tyranny are a fear (or a fact) of the markets, the title of possession falls to discount and only physical control has a premium. The fiat money system does not allow the participating "agents" to avoid the dangers of all of these threats but through the action of spending all money, and perhaps borrowing to spend now so as to avoid the future loss of purchasing power of expected future income. Once such perception becomes widespread, it becomes self fulfilling as the escape from fiat money holdings is impossible – each quantity spent moves to someone else's hands, who must in turn spend it. The commodity money that undergoes such a process can recover easily as the supply of it is restricted, and debtors end up forced to sell production and assets at a lower price in order to avoid bankruptcy resulting from insufficient cash flow.

There is much more to criticize but I will leave that to another opportunity.





beesting (07/04/00; 10:32:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 33146)
A Tribute to the Foot Soldiers of the American Revolution!
Oral History Only.

Who were the "Scrappers" that took on the English during the Revolutionary War?
This is some of the history of some of them!

As most reading this are familer with the movie by Mel Gibson "Braveheart" lets continue the saga between the English Royals and the Independant freedom loving Scottish.

Most Scottish refused to recognise Englands Royal claim to ownership of Scotland, as the Scots had a Royal family of their own.A pitched bloody fued from the time of William Wallace(1297) to "The Battle of Culloden"(1746) happened.

Before and after the "Battle of Culloden" the English, realizing the Scottish would always remain faithful to the law of the family(Clan), began to break the families apart by DEPORTING as many Scots and dissenters as possible to the English Colonies in the New World(North America)

The Scottish suffered a terrible defeat at the "Battle of Culloden", and the English monarchy boasted that they'd never be bothered by the Scots again, deporting thousands.

However in the new land the Scots found they had a family structure similar to the Native Americans,with Chiefs and Elders in control of the whole family including "Septs" to the high council and ultimitly the head Chief. This similarity worked in favor of the new colonists as they learned how to survive and learned new and different fighting tactics from what we now call The Native Americans.

This time(1776) when it was "War as Usual" with the English, the Scots who had developed 600 years of pent up anger against the English,"Hit em with Everything we Got" and were a main components in the victories.

So, as those of Scottish decent may have been tought, we did lose "The Battle of Culloden",,but we didn't lose the last war with England;
The American Revolutionary War!!!
Next time you see one of those guys wearing a Kilt think about what his ancestors went thru trying to give you.....FFFRRRREEEEEEDDOOMMMMMM!!!!!!!

Happy Fourth of July to all those that choose "FREEDOM" over slavery!!!
....beesting.

SHIFTY (7/4/2000; 9:21:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 33145)
Al Fulchino /all
Thought I would share with the forum a bit of what happened to me the other day.
My pressure tank on my well went out (small rust hole) and I had water shootin 20ft in the air.
So off to my local plumbing supply shop to pick up a new tank. While I was there an older woman came in and was complaining about her NEW toilet. It had just been installed a few days before. ( At this point anyone with a newer style toilet knows where I'm going.) She was telling the store owner that she had to plunge it every time and flush it two or three times. The owner told her that there was nothing wrong with her New toilet . The problem was with the US Government. With their infinite wisdom they passed a law that all new toilets can only use 1.5 gallons of water per flush, instead of three gallons.( I have a friend with these new toilets and I know what she was talking about. You end up using more water than normal because you have to flush several times.) He told the woman that there is little that he could do for her. He then told the story of a few guys that were busted for smuggling toilets in from Canada.
I just cant believe that this is allowed to go on in the USA , and our fellow citizens do nothing to change this. We have been converted from peasants with pitchforks to peasants with plungers. I guess if I ever move out of my old house I will be taking my old toilet with me!
I fear by the time the people in this country wake up and try to change things they will find out its too late.

$hifty

Leland (7/4/2000; 8:53:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 33144)
For History Buffs, Highly Recommended Reading (Lucky That my Local Library had this one)

Just Plain Folks: Everyday
people made difference in
American West

By Russell Gold
San Antonio Express-News Staff Writer

The American West was always a promised land just
over the horizon. There, a few miles beyond the last
settlement, were copious farmlands, bountiful game,
mountains rich in precious metals.

It's an image ingrained in the national mind for more
than two centuries. But the myth of the frontier has
never squared with the reality of the Western
experience.

That's the jumping-off point for Robert Hine and John
Mack Faragher and their vast new history of the
American West. Readable, abundantly illustrated and
never too theoretical, the book covers mostly familiar
terrain: Lewis and Clark's expedition, the
transcontinental railroad, the phenomenal growth of
Los Angeles and other urban areas.

But it is the authors' attention to the people who
shaped the historical experience — not the leaders,
but the everyday Americans — that sets this book
apart.

Take the book's handling of the 1849 gold rush and
the waves of mining fever that gripped the nation. This
version is peopled with gold rush widows and female
entrepreneurs who made more money cooking for
miners than their husbands found at the bottoms of
their gold pans.

The authors write about how empty-handed
American-born miners turned their frustrations on
immigrants in the camps. Ramon Navarro, a Chilean
miner, wrote in 1850 of an attack on his camp by a
mob that "demolished each house, not leaving a single
wall standing."

The situation was often worse for Chinese miners; and
for American Indians, mining strikes were often "an
unmitigated disaster," the authors note.

In fact, the rumor of a gold strike in the Black Hills led
to a clash between a federal government trying to
open the land to miners and the Sioux. The result was
the infamous Battle of Little Big- horn.

Worn down by the federal government's need to
control the land, Sioux leader Sitting Bull observed,
"Possession is a disease with them."

Historians Hine and Faragher use their preface to
praise the emergence of "new material with a steadier
emphasis on Native Americans, the role of ethnicity,
environmental issues and the participation of women in
the events of Western history."

They incorporate overlooked voices into this sweeping
history — female park rangers, Chinese railroad
workers and even Juan Cortina, known as the Tejano
Robin Hood, who operated in the Rio Grande Valley
before the Civil War.

To their credit, they also use these experiences to
rethink standard historical interpretations.

Consider the myth that independent, robust
homesteaders settled the West. Hine and Faragher
show how lumber companies, the railroads and cattle
companies used their influence in Washington — and
dummy homestead claims — to obtain much more
land than all the homesteaders combined.

Ten years after the Homestead Act of 1873, the
federal government boasted that the law had
"prevented large capitalists from absorbing great tracts
of public domains." The authors call this
pronouncement "a barefaced lie."

The book is so thorough in most areas that when a
subject is undeveloped, the absence is glaring.

The invention of windmills and barbed wire, which
separately helped shape the face of Western
agriculture, could have benefited from more attention.
But both are basically overlooked even as the authors
detail the emergence of Levi Strauss' durable
dungarees.

(Maybe this is a parochial quibble, since barbed wire
was first publicly promoted near San Antonio's City
Hall in 1876.)

Do these new perspectives fundamentally undermine
the myth of the American West? Hine and Faragher
have their work cut out for them here.

Our view of the West has always been rather black
and white — or perhaps Technicolor since Hollywood
began cranking out Westerns. But nothing is that
straightforward in the West; much that we associate
with the region is a result of the mixing of peoples that
the authors term "composite culture."

Log cabins were first built by Scandinavian pioneers,
and the techniques were spread by American Indians,
who borrowed the settlers' horses to create a great
nomadic hunting culture on the plains. Later it was the
pioneers' turn to borrow Hispanic cattle-raising
technique and spread it across the plains.

The authors conclude that in spite of new voices and
perspectives, the myth of the American West is too
deeply ingrained for mere facts to dislodge. But thanks
to their book, the myth has taken one on the chin.

(Fair Use Protections Apply.)

RossL (7/4/2000; 8:22:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 33143)
SDR- Currency chart update
http://home.columbus.rr.com/rossl/gold.htm

The chart is in a new URL location. It has been a long time since I worked on this chart, having moved to a different city and getting settled.

wolavka, what is the basis for all your predictions?


wolavka (7/4/2000; 5:14:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 33142)
counterfeit
Look it up, look at the Dollar. End of the story.

wolavka (7/4/2000; 4:56:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 33141)
Week-end of July 15th
Between now and July 17th gold will shine.

Da basement for the Dollar.

Perplexed (7/4/2000; 1:55:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 33140)
Thanks Aristotle
Thanks Aristotle for the kind thoughts, they are
indeed high praise. As previously stated I have great
admiration for those, such as hyourself, who are both willing and able to present a subject, which I, untill recently, have had little interest, in a manner which is readily comprehensible. While I, as well as many other citizens of this nation have been expecting a major financial collapse, and an accompanying sea change in government for a number of years, a connection to gold did not occur to me.

Now in my mid 60s, I have spent my life in physical labor, working as a carpenter, boat mechanic, airplane mechanic, police officer and soldier. Until recently I have had neither interest nor experience in the financial world. Having previously purchased some gold earles I began tracing their value. Thus recognizing its potential, last September
I purchased (2) August call options for a total of $900.00
including all fees and commissions.

In less than a month my broker called informing me that their combined value had reached $6500.00, inquiring as to whether I wanted her to sell them. With over ten months left on the options, and with an unshakable belief that gold was off and running, I declined. I sold them later for $3750.00.

With these kinds of losses, only a fool would continue selling options unless the game had been subsequently rigged, and only another fool would fail to recognize this fact.

I had previously told my wife that because of the potential loss compared to the potential gain, that who ever sold those calls was playing a fools game. I used part of my gain to purchase (2) October calls.

Now you know why I am still Perplexed

Netking (7/4/2000; 1:44:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 33139)
Al Fulchino Re;'A Call to All Who Would be Patriots'
Al Fulchino spare a thought for the British and 'what might have been'!


Netking (7/4/2000; 1:38:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 33138)
@Jason Happy
Jason Happy (33133)
Thanks for your reply & useful infomation.

Due to dynamics of supply where I live 1kg bars have been the 'order of the day', but when Silver moves 'it's going to really rock'. I can't buy enough of the stuff at the moment. Silver may be just be the most undervalued commodity in the world today.






Topaz (7/4/2000; 0:48:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 33137)
Whacky, fringe-dweller, Lunatic, Bugs-R-Us.
See-Text@Below
Tks HMS@kitco:

Heavy Metal Sunshine () ID#258273:
Copyright © 2000 Heavy Metal Sunshine/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Chris Coralans who several years ago predicted that July 1998 and April 2000 would powerful months in the markets ( which they definitely were ) based on his study of moon cycles ( Not Astrology ) Points to the new moon of July 16 as being a potent period for currencies gold etc. Von braun discusses this in the link below. Von braun is a bit inaccurate in that Carolans says that the period ten days before or ten days after is when we should see action if I heard it right. The 2nd link is a Wall Street Uncut interview with Chris Carolans where he describes his techniques, his logic and what he sees for July 2000. Defintiely worth the listen and the read.


http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_00/vonbraun070400.html

http://www.wallstreetuncut.com/scripts/mp3link.asp?target=wsu20000602-final

Al Fulchino (7/4/2000; 0:16:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 33136)
Leigh
Saw your post on Aristotle. Thanks. It is interesting to sometimes wonder just "who" everyone is. <smile>

Al Fulchino (7/4/2000; 0:15:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 33135)
A Call to All Who Would be Patriots
Having just had the privilege of seeing the movie PATRIOT and this being the wonderful 4th of July, only 224 years after that wonderful day in 1776, I thought it time for a post.

I owe a debt of gratitude to all those that have given of themselves. They have given me the sun each day to rise and watch over choices I make. They have given me the time to watch without worry over the growth of my children. They have given me the the gift of freedom. That gift, I can NEVER repay. But in my own words, I say to all who have ears. Do not challenge my freedom. Do not take or attempt to take away my ability to defend my freedom. Do not try to 'make safe' my country by enacting law after law that hinders my ability to hold a gun in my hands and to do what common sense tells me. I am well at ease that criminals have guns. I am at ease that crazies have guns. They do not scare me or my family. Nor should they frighten you. What should be of concern are those that would gather up people's emotions against what is and has always been the peoples 'tool'. Once you are without weapon you are defenseless. Being defenseLESS you are no longer free. Safe? Yes! Safe without free will. Subject to those who know our needs better than we. You anti-gun folks, you are not my countrymen. You are not my friends. You are at war with me and always shall be. You are clever. You understand how to manipulate people and to scare them. For your purpose is your own. I understand that. Your efforts are my generations challenge to "keep freedom if (we) can". I raise my voice up against you and your efforts. I raise my glare up against you. And I draw my last breath up against you to expose your deceit.


Viva la American Revoltionary!



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