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Welcome to the USAGOLD Gold Discussion Archives. The archives of this gold discussion forum are a treasure trove of information to educate investors about protecting their wealth through portfolio diversification with private gold ownership. The discussion forum also covers the wider issues of the past, present, and future role of gold in international monetary policy and the dynamics of the modern gold markets...

The opinions posted by all guests are expressly their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the management or staff of USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals. The hosting of the public discussion shall therefore not be construed as an endorsement by USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals of any of the opinions posted here.

ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 12/3/2000
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

(Yesterday's Discussion.)

SHIFTY (12/3/2000; 23:41:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 42838)
Gore May Be Seeking Vice Presidency Under Bush
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2000/12/3/183023.shtml
Senator: Gore May Be Seeking Vice Presidency Under Bush
Christopher Ruddy
Monday, Dec. 4, 2000
Congress is abuzz with a story that may have seemed fanciful a month ago, or even a week ago, but – as Al Gore continues to battle for the Oval Office – congressional Republicans fear it may be true.
There is a growing fear among Republican leaders and the Bush camp that Al Gore, if he fails to wrest the presidency from Bush, may attempt to become vice president.

On Saturday, I spoke with Sen. Bob Smith, a Republican of New Hampshire.

He confirmed to me that both Democrat and Republican lawmakers are talking about a Bush-Gore presidency.

Here's how that might happen:

If Gore wins one or more of his legal efforts, and the Florida Supreme Court backs up his claims that he won the popular vote in Florida, Gore will claim the presidency.

At the same time, the Florida Legislature will select and designate Bush's set of electors to vote on the Dec. 18 Electoral College date.

Two sets of electors for Forida will vie for status in the Electoral College, and the dispute will be resolved by the new Congress, which will be seated on Jan. 5 of next year.

There is little doubt that the Republican-controlled House of Representatives will endorse Bush, certify his Florida electors, and end Gore's quest for the presidency.

Then the action turns to the Senate, which has the consitutional duty to select the vice president. As it stands now, the new Senate will be evenly divided, 50-50, between the Republicans and Democrats. With Al Gore as vice president and president of the Senate until Jan. 20, the Senate will technically be controlled by the Democrats.

Gore and the Democrats will select the new vice president.

Smith says that under existing law, only four people can be chosen by the Senate to be vice president: Bush, Cheney, Gore or Lieberman.

But if the Senate Democrats select Lieberman, they will lose control of the Senate. He is currently a sitting Senator from Connecticut. If he leaves the Senate, the Republican governor of Connecticut will chose his replacement.

Gore will have a good argument to take the vice presidency for himself. He will also be emboldened by claiming to have won the popular vote nationally, the popular vote in Florida, and the Electoral College.

Smith says he does not foresee Gore's claims accepted by the Bush administration. "Vice President" Gore would not be part of the administration or the Cabinet, but would simply keep his constitutional duty as president of the Senate.

Still, "Vice President" Gore would have a valuable platform to prepare for another presidential run in 2004.

It is widely believed that if Gore loses to Bush he will be finished politically. However, this novel twist, with Gore assuming the vice presidency, gives him political viability.

Far-fetched? Smith doesn't think so and said anything is possible if the Electoral College dispute lands in the hands of Congress.

Asked if he thinks the matter will go before Congress, Smith said, "I definitely think so."

Concerns about Gore or another Democrat trying to have the new Democrat-controlled Senate steal the vice-presidency from Dick Cheney are being taken very seriously.

Bush camp sources tell me that the Bush campaign sees an effort by the Democrats to take the vice presidency a very real possibility.

Already the Bush campaign is planning a strategy of getting one or more Democratic senators to defect to the Republican camp.

Bush's phone call to Democratic Sen. John Breaux of Louisiana is one indication the Bush camp wants to avert a showdown in the Senate, and some key Democratic Senators may be offered Cabinet positions to keep Gore or Lieberman from the vice presidency.

END
------------------------------------------------------------

I hope this never happens.

$hifty



Topaz (12/3/2000; 23:04:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 42837)
Oh...and Kaknut,
Don't waste your time with SDB's, much better to have it "at hand" - for "fondling". Pretty soon after your first fondle you'll be back down at the Dealers getting the other 50!- then 50 MORE - then...

Topaz (12/3/2000; 22:54:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 42836)
Black Blade: Kaknut.:
Ahh! BB,
Sounds just wonderful - Keep that gen-set ready and raring to go though!
Kaknut,
Welcome (I don't recall seeing your moniker before?) As we here in Oz have just experienced, it's far more likely the "loony" will fall vis a vis the US$ than vice-versa.
Seems to me we're in the "monster devouring it's young" phase of the great washout.
If you're not comfortable with 100 oz au just get 50. If/when push comes to shove, that'll be enough. OTOH if Au goes to pot and you suffer a loss Then HELL! you're entitled to moan and groan, "You're a Freekin GOLDBUG - it's EXPECTED!

SHIFTY (12/3/2000; 22:54:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 42835)
Iraq To Resume Exports Until Jan.
http://catalog.dogpile.com/texis/catalog?a=news&q=Iraq+To+Resume+Exports+Until+Jan.
The link above is for the story below.
Shifty

SHIFTY (12/3/2000; 22:49:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 42834)
Iraq To Resume Exports Until Jan.
AP
Iraq To Resume Exports Until Jan.
by WAIEL FALEH
Associated Press Writer


BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) -- Two days after it stopped pumping oil, Iraq announced Sunday it will resume exporting its crude to fulfill contracts already signed under the U.N.-approved oil-for-food deal.

Iraq halted production Friday after the United Nations rejected its proposed oil price for December, a price U.N. experts said was too low. Iraq's proposal was seen as part of an attempt to get around U.N. controls on Iraqi oil profits.

''The Iraqi oil policy has been always aimed at stability of the world oil market. Iraq has absolutely no intention to terminate or hinder the exports of its crude in the world market,'' Oil Minister Amer Mohammed Rashid said at a news conference Sunday announcing the resumption of exports.

He said Iraq is working with U.N. oil overseers to export the full quantity of oil agreed to under the current six-month phase of the oil-for-food deal. This phase is due to end Tuesday, but because of the disruption in pumping will now be extended until sometime in January.

Iraq, under sanctions for 10 years, needs the sanctions committee to approve its proposed prices to export its oil each month. Under the oil-for-food program, profits from Iraqi exports go into an escrow bank account so the United Nations can monitor the money's use.

But Iraq wants buyers of its crude to pay a surcharge of 50 cents a barrel into an Iraqi-controlled account. The low price formula proposed by Baghdad last week was believed to be an attempt to compensate buyers for the surcharge.

Companies have indicated an unwillingness to pay the surcharge since it would violate U.N. sanctions.

Rashid defended Iraq's prices, saying they are fair and in the interest of the Iraqi people. He said he is discussing the prices with the overseers, whom he said ''are under political pressure.''

''There is better understanding of our position,'' he said. ''We are optimistic to reach an agreement because we have no intention to hinder oil exports.''

Rashid denied that Iraq has conditions to resume its exports. ''Iraq is annoyed at this position. The American pressure was behind the stoppage of the oil flow,'' he said.

The sanctions committee has said oil companies under new contracts can continue loading Iraqi crude onto tankers, but cannot pay for it until Iraq proposes December prices that are in line with fair market value.

Rashid also said Iraq will consider extending the oil-for-food program for another phase once a resolution is issued at the U.N. Security Council, but criticized the program for not fulfilling its purpose.

''We have exported more than $38 billion. Only $8.5 billion worth of contracts have arrived,'' he said. ''About $3.5 billion worth of contracts are on hold while there is $14-15 billion frozen in banks. ... The deal is a failure.''






tedw (12/3/2000; 22:32:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 42833)
Gold hunter , miscellaneous
http://www.usagold.com


Im sorry to see Goldhunter go but I can understand the reasons. Perhaps he can e-mail and apology and be allowed back on as the Stranger was at one time. I believe his knowledge of the Futures markets would be an asset to this forum.

On the subject of Futures. Personally, I own physical gold, some gold stock (GSR), but I also play in the options market. My stratedgy is to stay long gold via options, and never risk more than Im prepared to lose. If the options expire worthless (and they have), I just go long again as I am convinced we will see another rise like the Washington agreement rise or the placer dome rise. And I believe the profits from volatility will far outweigh my loses.Maybe not very sophisticated but it works for me.

Oil options look good to me now also.




canamami (12/3/2000; 22:04:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 42832)
Cavan Man - Visit to Canada (esp. Nova Scotia)
http://www.gov.ns.ca/tourism.htm
Cavan Man,

A kind stranger forwarded your previous Forum message to me (I'm not at the Forum very much anymore...frustrated with all my investments, including gold-related investments, and I can't bear to look at financial sites anymore).

I don't know what part of Canada you wish to visit.. lots of great places to see notwithstanding the substandard economy and even more deplorable government. It seems you are interested in Nova Scotia, and the above is the link to Nova Scotia tourism. Nova Scotia is truly a wonderful place, and I believe Halifax is the world's best small city.. it punches way above its weight. Get the Doers and Dreamers Guide from the above site, plus the "Where" magazine for Halifax. The rural areas, especially the South Shore and Cape Breton, are quite beautiful. PEI also has a publication similar to the Doers and Dreamers Guide, and is worth a look, especially if you're doing the car holiday thing. I also like Newfoundland a lot, but it's a bit off the beaten track.

Canada has a lot of great cities to visit. I would think that Montreal and Quebec City would be interesting to Americans, due to the French/European flavour. Quebec City especially could be in Europe, especially the Lower Town. (I'm partial to small cities, Montreal is also unique though). Ottawa has lots of museums/ historic sites and is very clean. Toronto has big city attractions and lots of great restaurants due to the many ethnic communities. Calgary is clean and scenic with the mountains, as is B.C.(Vancouver and Victoria). (I don't know the western cities at all...never been and need to visit them.)

Hope this helps; advise if you need more info.



SHIFTY (12/3/2000; 21:55:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 42831)
USA GOLD
Corrected
I was looking around the site tonight and noticed the Christmas decorations on the home page.
Well done! Will the forum be decorated soon to get us in the spirit of the holiday season?
You have my chad.
$hifty

SHIFTY (12/3/2000; 21:54:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 42830)
USA
I was looking around the site tonight and noticed the Christmas decorations on the home page.
Well done! Will the forum be decorated soon to get us in the spirit of the holiday season?
You have my chad.
$hifty

megatron (12/3/2000; 20:53:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 42829)
poor goldhunter
I'm kinda sorry he got kicked off. He sounded irate! better watch myself!!

USAGOLD (12/3/2000; 20:52:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 42828)
Journeyman, Auspec, Mr. Gresham, all. . . .
I should make the distinction: I thought the discussion on commodities' risk a good one and did not have any problem with it. But this did not have to do with the discussion on commodities' risk. It had to do with an uncalled for and unnecessary personal attack.

Let the discussion continue, and my apologies to all for the unpleaasantness.

Mr Gresham (12/3/2000; 20:32:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 42827)
Recession -> Savings
http://www.bearforum.com/cgi-bin/bbs.pl?read=86692
Here is a thoughtful look at the recession ahead. We can well speculate how people will attempt to recommence Saving with their remaining funds, once they realize that stock market appreciation is a bygone.


megatron (12/3/2000; 20:32:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 42826)
journeyman
Yes,certainly the 'house' wins no matter what, BUT, did the house not also PAY OUT hundreds if not thousands of small wins? SOMEONE had to keep winning to keep the delusion alive, did they not? If the odds get too lopsided people pick up on it, smart people anyway, and move to another game or quit. I should have qualified my earlier statement
that 90% of people lose buying options. The word lose implies they are finished. Not so. Some come just short of breaking even. Some have small gains which eventually get eaten by commisions. Some have winning streaks and then losing streaks. 100% of the people who bought gold in 1980 and held are 'losers' technically? All kinds of money has been made in the last 20 years by savvy traders in 'paper' gold. REPEAT REPEAT savvy traders. Savvy traders also see the liquidity drying up. Move on. I am 100% convinced that gold/silver are going to the moon and that physical ownership is paramount, BUT there is absolutely NO ARGUMENT
that smart people have traded thier way to profits in futures/options for 20 years while technically buyers of physical gold have been "losers". A person who made 5cents since 1980 in futures is ahead of ANYONE who bought and held gold.

Journeyman (12/3/2000; 20:21:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 42825)
Journeyman lies @goldhunter, Megatron, USAGOLD, ALL

Hi ALL,

Thanks for comming to my defense, Sir Michael! However, perhaps there is some merit behind Sir goldhunter's post.

It's possible I was in error in including goldhunter as one of the posters claiming 90% of futures players would lose. I made that post from memory, thinking principally of the following post from Megatron:

"options/futures/goldhunter assault
"forwards,futures swaps, etc are TOOLS! They are sophisticated
instuments to be played by those who understand the underlying
risk/reward ratio. Period. anyone else who ventures
to play will win
by dumb luck ONLY!!!"

And particularly the following:

"It is excedingly difficult to profit, rigged market
or not,and
90% of the players are NOT savvy enough." -megatron msg#: 42766

In fact, a strict interpretation of what even Megatron posted does not specifically say 90% will lose, just that "90% of the players are NOT savvy enough."

That's what led me to pen (or type may be more accurate) the following in msg#: 42807:

"'According to informed sources (Megatron & goldhunter), there's a 90%
probability you'll lose.' In fact, I could accurately say the same to
a subset of gamblers already playing the futures game!"

I believe I remember goldhunter having said something similar, but memory is a dangerous thing as you can see. It may be that I just lumped goldhunter and megatron together because Megatron has mentioned goldhunter in at least two of his posts and gone to his defense. I give Megatron and goldhunter the benefit of the doubt, and I apologize for whatever extent they feel misrepresented.

But the facts that options trading is indeed dangerous and fairly obviously misunderstood and costly for the majority of players, in fact costing traders about 90% of money risked, stands:

*The Hieronymus Study[1]*
... Except for a few big losers (16 over $15,000) and fewer
big winners (6 over $15,000), the clients of the commission
house tended to pass money back and forth, paying
commissions in the shuffle. It is interesting to note that a
large number (170) of accounts were traded only once or a
few times at most. This group, although constituting 37
percent of the total number of accounts, contributed 64
percent of the total losses. Regular traders (those who won
or lost at least $500 and contributed $250 in commissions
during the year) did better as a group, and their net
profits were nearly enough to offset their net losses.
*Regular traders (42 percent) paid $364,647 of the total
$406,344 in commissions, or almost 90 percent, which
strongly suggests that the regular traders relieved the
one-time traders of their money and then deposited it with
the firm in the form of commissions.* -_The Futures Game_ by
Teweles and Jones, p.311

NOTES:
1. Thomas A. Hieronymus, _Economics of Futures Trading_ (New
York: Commodity Research Bureau, 1977), pp. 259-263

Regards,
Journeyman



auspec (12/3/2000; 20:04:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 42824)
MK & Randy
Thanks gentlemen for the CLHE-HoF tie in with The Lighter Side of Gold, it is appreciated. We will make every attempt to bring continued honor to this Forum. I'm sure glad one doesn't get "bonked" for merely assaulting the castle.
Goonight & thanks again, some of the little things in life can be quite meaningful.

auspec (12/3/2000; 19:53:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 42823)
silvercollector
This ongoing issue of digital photography supposedly adversly impacting silver demand has been played for many years. You would be best off to pick up some more silver EVERY time you hear this sham. It has not happened and is not likely to happen any time soon. Very similar to blaming the gold manipulation, excuse me, low price of gold entirely on Australian hedging. These provide cover for nefarious activities because they seem believable. The huge surplus of silver is largely used up, GONE, forever. Credible sources have recently proclaimed there are actually more above ground stocks of silver than gold at this late date. Read some of Ted Butlers articles and you be the judge about what is right and what is disinformation.

silvercollector (12/3/2000; 19:26:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 42822)
I wish I knew the real inventories
There was an article very recently about gold moving up soon whereas silver would not because there is "too much of it."

I could find a dozen articles proclaiming that inventories are dangerously low and as many claiming enormus above ground holdings. Within these debates there are sub-debates regarding the use of digital photography, it is killing silver or it has no impact.

Well, which is it? Why is there such a widespread opinion on the amount of silver inventory?

The CB hoards of gold seem to be similiar. Are the above ground hoards and subsequent potential overhang gold's demise or has the selling/leasing brought inventory to a critical point.


Or does it matter, simple supply/demand dynamics will cause silver and gold to rise when the excrement hits the fan, regardless of present inventories?

Confused silvercollector.

P.S.: Picked up 100oz. last Thursday at ridiculous prices.
Personal silver stash nears gold stash. Hope everyone is as pleased with their own PHYSICAL holdings. Have a nice week.
May the fleas of a thousand camels infest the armpits of the shorts.




Mr Gresham (12/3/2000; 19:22:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 42821)
Journeyman: When the Pros Leave
Hear, hear, Michael. May we all work to maintain the integrity of the forum. And be not so hasty to hit that "Submit" button when our words could fill out better with some further thought. (A lesson that stings me anew every few months.)

J'man. The pros may leave the particular "dollar derivatives" game we are studying, but they are always engaged in the Power game, vs. each other and vs. us serfs.

I spent today thinking of our various differing views of TPTB, much as the 6 blind men describing the elephant. As wrong as we may be at times, it is vital to try (was it Parsifal, HBM, or Henri who said it earlier today?) to see through the curtain at who is pulling our strings.

I don't think you or I will ever be negotiating for majority control over an oilfield in Kazakhstan or the like, so a few coins tucked away is our likely upper limit. On second thought, maybe the dealings of the ultra-powerful _aren't_ really so interesting, after all?



USAGOLD (12/3/2000; 19:03:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 42820)
Goldhunter. . .
You've gone over the line. Calling someone like Journeyman a "liar" was a bit more than I can take. Beyond the personal attack on Journeyman, the attack on this Forum was unjustified and beyond the pale. I just wanted you and this Forum to know it wasn't Randy that pulled your code, but me, or I wouldn't have even bothered posting this. Good luck in all you do, Goldhunter. I regret that it had to come to this. I thought we had gotten beyond this sort of thing, but apparently we haven't. Posting privileges are just that a "privilege", not a "right."

Goldhunter's posting privileges are revoked for breaking Prohibition One: Personal attacks, slanderous or derogatory remarks directed at another poster.



beesting (12/3/2000; 18:42:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 42819)
POWER TO THE GOLDHEARTS!!! or Lets Take Some Action!!!
I just received a prospectus this week urging our family to invest more funds into a mutual funds family of funds. We deposited what was to us a large sum into one of the Gold funds in the early 1980's, and have never touched it since.(The fund now has 2 Gold funds).The fund invested in Gold mining stocks. We have lost about 95% of our paper dollar value, to this point in time. But, we're not the only ones! The prospectus shows current assets at $57,019,000(paper assets)
The other Gold fund shows assets of: $25,836,000.
Combined assets of:$82,855,000.
Combined assets in 1996 were:$402,620,000!
I also happened to look at a copy of Barrons this week.(I used to subsctibe to Barrons.) What I noticed different from when I first subscribed many years ago, was the "Thousands" of Mutual Funds listed.(Way up from hundreds in the 1980's)
Folks, to me this looks like where the "Major" amount of U.S. paper dollars are invested! Everyone invested in these funds expects to have it there when they retire....Many, many may be in for a surprise! What do you think would happen if a small amount cash out right now and put their cash in physical Gold for safe-keeping?

As soon as I finish this post I intend to write to the fund that sent me the prospectus a letter something like this:

Dear Sirs,
I originally invested in your Gold fund with the expectations of increasing my original deposit over a period of time, to use at the time of my retirement. In the last 20 or so years it has proven to be one of the worst investments of all time.
I notice from your recent prospectus there is still $57,019,000 in the fund. Sirs, I humbly ask you, do we just wait till the $57,019,000 is all gone by following the current investment strategy,or do we change strategy to preserve what is still in the fund?
My suggestion:
Take "ALL", or a large portion of the $57,019,000 and invest in PHYSICAL GOLD, RIGHT NOW!
I am going to spread this advice to the other mutual Fund Gold funds and all the people I know that have shares in mutual funds.
As a side note I notice currently almost all sectors of the shareholder investment world are way down from early year 2000 highs, already trillions of paper dollars have been lost, by some, if not all.
I implore you,please put the remaining assets of the fund into physical Gold before it's too late.Yes I know the funds original guidelines would have to be changed to do this,please get them changed as quickly as humanly possible.
Sincerely,,,Name Withheld!
[End of letter]


Now, if anyone else out there would like to write to a Gold mutual fund here are some toll free phone numbers to call to receive free prospectus information:

SPECIAL NOTE:
These numbers are supplied only to get addresses of some listed Gold mutual funds for the express purpose of writing letters or e-mail similar letters as the example posted above.(Addresses and e-mails are not listed in my old copy of Barrons.)
Another note:
""All financial figures are very old.""
1. Amer cent ac gl Gold; inv assets:$225,300,000 Tel 1-800-345-2021.
2. Blanchard prec metals,Gold assets: 35,700,000 Tel 1-800-829-3863
3. Bull&Bear Gold investors assets:9,900,000 Tel 1-800-847-4200.
4. Fidelity sel amer Gold;assets: $188,200,000 Tel 1-800-544-8888
5. Fidelity sel prec mtls; assets: $123,100,000 Tel 1-800-544-8888.
6. Franklin Gold fund I; assets:$256,100,000 Tel 1-800-342-5236.
7. Franklin Gold fund II; assets:$19,200,000 Tel 1-800-342-5236.
8. IDS precious metals A; assets:$49,400,000 Tel 1-800-328-8300.
9. IDS precious metals B; assets $6,500,000 Tel 1-800-328-8300.
10. Invesco strat Gold; assets:$106,000,000 Tel 1-800-525-8085.
11. Lexington Goldfund; assets $53,700,000 Tel 1-800-526-0056.
12. Lexington strat invest; assets $18,500,000 Tel 1-800-526-0056.
13. Midas fund...Gold; assets $97,100,000 Tel 1-800-400-6432
14. Morgan Stanley in Gold A; assets $13,200,000 Tel 1-800-548-7786.
15. Oppenheimer gld & sp A; assets $91,200,000 Tel 1-800-525-7048
16. Scudder Gold fund; assets $124,100,000 Tel 1-800-225-2470.
17.US glbl Gold shares; assets $50,200,000 Tel 1-800-873-8637.
18.US glbl world Gold; assets $120,200,000 Tel 1-800-873-8637.
19. Van Eck Intl Gold A; assets $213,500,000 Tel 1-800-826-2333
20. Vanguard Spl Gold; assets $287,400,000 Tel 1-800-662-7447.
Lots more but not enough space.

Now, the reason I included assets is because as of Dec.1,2000 COMEX's total amount of Gold inventory, according to Bridge News is:
1,863,611 ounces or about 58 tonnes!
Value about $512,000,000 @ $275 per ounce Gold!
If we add only the assets of the above listed funds, I come up with $2,088,500,000 almost "4" times the current value of "ALL" the Gold listed at COMEX!

If a few hundred other people wrote letters to these companies, similar to the example above!,,,, does anyone else beside me think it could, in time, change the complexion of the whole Gold industry....By causing a short squeeze on physical Gold....And forcing the Gold prices up????
I hope I don't get sued for this post!!!
Those in the Know....Are Buying....Gold...beesting.





beesting (12/3/2000; 18:42:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 42818)
POWER TO THE GOLDHEARTS!!! or Lets Take Some Action!!!
I just received a prospectus this week urging our family to invest more funds into a mutual funds family of funds. We deposited what was to us a large sum into one of the Gold funds in the early 1980's, and have never touched it since.(The fund now has 2 Gold funds).The fund invested in Gold mining stocks. We have lost about 95% of our paper dollar value, to this point in time. But, we're not the only ones! The prospectus shows current assets at $57,019,000(paper assets)
The other Gold fund shows assets of: $25,836,000.
Combined assets of:$82,855,000.
Combined assets in 1996 were:$402,620,000!
I also happened to look at a copy of Barrons this week.(I used to subsctibe to Barrons.) What I noticed different from when I first subscribed many years ago, was the "Thousands" of Mutual Funds listed.(Way up from hundreds in the 1980's)
Folks, to me this looks like where the "Major" amount of U.S. paper dollars are invested! Everyone invested in these funds expects to have it there when they retire....Many, many may be in for a surprise! What do you think would happen if a small amount cash out right now and put their cash in physical Gold for safe-keeping?

As soon as I finish this post I intend to write to the fund that sent me the prospectus a letter something like this:

Dear Sirs,
I originally invested in your Gold fund with the expectations of increasing my original deposit over a period of time, to use at the time of my retirement. In the last 20 or so years it has proven to be one of the worst investments of all time.
I notice from your recent prospectus there is still $57,019,000 in the fund. Sirs, I humbly ask you, do we just wait till the $57,019,000 is all gone by following the current investment strategy,or do we change strategy to preserve what is still in the fund?
My suggestion:
Take "ALL", or a large portion of the $57,019,000 and invest in PHYSICAL GOLD, RIGHT NOW!
I am going to spread this advice to the other mutual Fund Gold funds and all the people I know that have shares in mutual funds.
As a side note I notice currently almost all sectors of the shareholder investment world are way down from early year 2000 highs, already trillions of paper dollars have been lost, by some, if not all.
I implore you,please put the remaining assets of the fund into physical Gold before it's too late.Yes I know the funds original guidelines would have to be changed to do this,please get them changed as quickly as humanly possible.
Sincerely,,,Name Withheld!
[End of letter]


Now, if anyone else out there would like to write to a Gold mutual fund here are some toll free phone numbers to call to receive free prospectus information:

SPECIAL NOTE:
These numbers are supplied only to get addresses of some listed Gold mutual funds for the express purpose of writing letters or e-mail similar letters as the example posted above.(Addresses and e-mails are not listed in my old copy of Barrons.)
Another note:
""All financial figures are very old.""
1. Amer cent ac gl Gold; inv assets:$225,300,000 Tel 1-800-345-2021.
2. Blanchard prec metals,Gold assets: 35,700,000 Tel 1-800-829-3863
3. Bull&Bear Gold investors assets:9,900,000 Tel 1-800-847-4200.
4. Fidelity sel amer Gold;assets: $188,200,000 Tel 1-800-544-8888
5. Fidelity sel prec mtls; assets: $123,100,000 Tel 1-800-544-8888.
6. Franklin Gold fund I; assets:$256,100,000 Tel 1-800-342-5236.
7. Franklin Gold fund II; assets:$19,200,000 Tel 1-800-342-5236.
8. IDS precious metals A; assets:$49,400,000 Tel 1-800-328-8300.
9. IDS precious metals B; assets $6,500,000 Tel 1-800-328-8300.
10. Invesco strat Gold; assets:$106,000,000 Tel 1-800-525-8085.
11. Lexington Goldfund; assets $53,700,000 Tel 1-800-526-0056.
12. Lexington strat invest; assets $18,500,000 Tel 1-800-526-0056.
13. Midas fund...Gold; assets $97,100,000 Tel 1-800-400-6432
14. Morgan Stanley in Gold A; assets $13,200,000 Tel 1-800-548-7786.
15. Oppenheimer gld & sp A; assets $91,200,000 Tel 1-800-525-7048
16. Scudder Gold fund; assets $124,100,000 Tel 1-800-225-2470.
17.US glbl Gold shares; assets $50,200,000 Tel 1-800-873-8637.
18.US glbl world Gold; assets $120,200,000 Tel 1-800-873-8637.
19. Van Eck Intl Gold A; assets $213,500,000 Tel 1-800-826-2333
20. Vanguard Spl Gold; assets $287,400,000 Tel 1-800-662-7447.
Lots more but not enough space.

Now, the reason I included assets is because as of Dec.1,2000 COMEX's total amount of Gold inventory, according to Bridge News is:
1,863,611 ounces or about 58 tonnes!
Value about $512,000,000 @ $275 per ounce Gold!
If we add only the assets of the above listed funds, I come up with $2,088,500,000 almost "4" times the current value of "ALL" the Gold listed at COMEX!

If a few hundred other people wrote letters to these companies, similar to the example above!,,,, does anyone else beside me think it could, in time, change the complexion of the whole Gold industry....By causing a short squeeze on physical Gold....And forcing the Gold prices up????
I hope I don't get sued for this post!!!
Those in the Know....Are Buying....Gold...beesting.





goldhunter (12/3/2000; 18:32:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 42817)
Good Evening...
First of all...more deceit from this web-site:

"Don't play the futures game! According to informed sources (Megatron & goldhunter), there's a 90% probability you'll lose." In fact, I could accurately say the same to a subset of gamblers already playing the futures game!

The above quote is from Mr Journeyman posted earlier...

This site is getting to be more amazing to me every day...

The above quote is not only HOGWASH in terms of the TRUTH but also a position, statement or opinion NEVER made by me...

I strongly object to this B.S. going around here any time one of the posters' statements talks about futures/options when they either don't know what they're talking about, or start lieing about what others say.

Mr Journeyman, You should know better...You're a liar.




mhchuck (12/3/2000; 18:26:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 42816)
Replies, Season's Greetings.
Hello Topaz, I'm here almost every day but post very infrequently. Wishing you and yours a great holiday season!

Hello Perplexed, thanks for the acknowledgement. A rather nice post yourself. Happy Holiday's!

I would like to extend Season's Greetings to those at Centennial Precious Metals, and to all who post and read here. I wish you all the best, not only for this holiday season, but also for the New Year and beyond.

mhchuck




Journeyman (12/3/2000; 17:55:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 42815)
One-vote decisions @Pandagold

Hi Pandagold!

I believe many of those votes, if memory serves, are votes by legislative bodies like the House of Commons and the Reichstag. In such relatively small bodies, one vote decisions are fairly common. Like the current Bush Gore Supreme Court decision could easily turn out to be 5 to 4.

I don't have the time to check all the one vote decisions in your post, but statistical probability tells me this is probably the case.

In the popular vote, one vote decisions, even in relatively small jurisdictions is extremely rare.

Regards,
Journeyman



Pandagold (12/3/2000; 17:17:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 42814)
What's in a vote
I have just received the following from a friend in Rhode Island. I have not checked its historical accuracy, so if any of you find a 'goof' let me know. If it is fact, then it is quite interesting - though some of those end results are a little un-nerving

"........sending a little historic trivia that may be of interest to you."
JUST ONE VOTE
in 1649 one vote gave Oliver Cromwell control of England. In 1649 one
vote caused Charles I of England to be executed. In 1776 one vote gave
America the English language instead of German. In 1845 one vote
brought Texas into the union. In 1868 one vote saved President Andrew
Johnson from impeachment. In 1876 one vote gave Rutherford B. Hayes the
presiidency of the United States. In 1876 one vote changed France from
a monarchy to a republic. And in 1923 one vote gave Adolf Hitler
leadership of the Nazi party, _ The Chamber of Commerce Newsletter,
Willard, Ohio.
Hope all is well

Canuck (12/3/2000; 17:09:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 42813)
@ Cavan Man
I did not see Halifax while in N.S.; the family stayed away from cities, large towns etc.

Without a doubt the most spectacular sight was Cavendish Beach, Prince Edward Island. Bring dark sunglasses and binoculars, schedule for a hot Saturday afternoon if you know what I mean!

Breathtaking scenary goes well with the breathtaking scenary.

Canuck.


Pandagold (12/3/2000; 16:56:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 42812)
Black gold; yellow oil (Yellow oil?)

What gets overlooked is that gold, or the price thereof, is only, in basic economic terms, a very small part of the economic equation. It is in psychological terms where gold truly glitters and shines.

For example, let us assume that the headlines tomorrow were - "OIL JUMPS ANOTHER $10" Now that would have impact, I agree - especially in the current light of the Middle East tensions and the, already added increases. It would also, eventually, have an impact on inflation, and removing dollars from the pocket.

But what if the headlines were - "GOLD JUMPS $30" -( a mere 10% above its '98 price.) In basic economic terms there is no relation as to which would have the greatest adverse impact. But in psychological terms, I know which would throw the biggest cat among the pidgeons, and could bring down the whole pack of cards.

Having said that. Because of the way 'conditioning' has been perpetrated over the past decade, everyone would expect the price to rapidly fall again within a short space of time, so alarm bells would not ring quite so loud. But instead of falling back again, lets assume, shortly after, two further 5% increases bringing the price to around $340 an ounce - still well below the percentage increase in the price of oil. I believe the noises from the chicken coup would be frightening - especially if you were the farmer.

When we consider this, we know why the manipulation of the gold price is being practiced - for purely psychological reasons. Having said that, it is not truly the case. Because of the complexities (interactions) of the financial web, their is rarely, if ever, one reason, or one effect.

Something else that is overlooked, that could give insight into the attitudes of the Arab oil 'sheiks'. is that they know just as much about the gold market as they do about oil. Oil maybe expressed in dollar terms, but to them it is in gold terms, and they have a set yardstick as to how many barrels of their crude equals one ounce of gold.
When it strays, they bring it back on track sooner or later.

We have the expression that oil is black gold, but one never hears that gold is yellow oil. To the Arab, gold is real money - the dollar is not.




Cavan Man (12/3/2000; 16:56:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 42811)
Canuck and justamere bear
RE: The Maritime Provinces (CA)
Thanks. Planning a vacation for this summer. I'm sure the entire province is spectacular. Looking for a point to hole up for a week and sight see etc. Is Halifax the answer?

SHIFTY (12/3/2000; 16:47:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 42810)
Periodic Ponzi Update
http://home.columbus.rr.com/rossl/gold.htm
Nasdaq 2,645.29 + Dow 10,373.54 = 13,018.83 divide by 2 = 6509.415 Ponzi

Down 146.385 from last week


I looks like things are starting to get interesting. At 6,509.415 the ponzi is at its all time low.
I think its a safe bet to say it looks like were just getting started.


The link provided by RossL
Thank you Sir.
As always

$hifty


Journeyman (12/3/2000; 16:42:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 42809)
What do you do when even the pros leave? @Mr Gresham msg#: 42808

Hi Mr Gresham!

"We know we've been the patsies in financial life pretty much all along. Now we're trying to figure out who the
pros are, and what hands they're playing." -Mr Gresham
msg#: 42808

Indeed -- and if you know a few of the pros, and they leave, you know the game is too tough even for them. Soros, etc. So what do YOU do? Keep playing even though you knew you were the "tuna" even BEFORE the game got that tough??

Where do you go then when you quit? Normally cash, but times aren't normal. As FOA/TG explained so well in yesterday's trail update, someone's going to get stuck when they try to redeem their chips at the cage. More accurately, they'll get dollars, not gold -- and at the "official" (doctored) price -- and likely in dollars drastically reduced in buying power by hyper-inflation.

There are just some "interesting times" in history when only gold will do if some of the possible outcomes are serious enough. My read is that, unless you're sleep'n, this is definitely one of those times.

Regards,
Journeyman

P.S. But always remember "Prediction is very difficult, especially of the future."


Mr Gresham (12/3/2000; 16:04:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 42808)
Journeyman
Great post. A new perspective on you for me.

That saying about who is the patsy at the poker table, right?

We know we've been the patsies in financial life pretty much all along. Now we're trying to figure out who the pros are, and what hands they're playing.


Journeyman (12/3/2000; 15:44:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 42807)
Suckers playing a rigged game @megatron usagold.com msg#: 42766

Hi Megatron,

Excuse me in advance if I seem harsh. That's not my intention, but I dont' have time for sugar-coating today. What both you and goldhuter have told us is that 90% of the people playing your game shouldn't be playing it. I believe you.

So without knowing anything else, I can advise a complete stranger, "Don't play the futures game! According to informed sources (Megatron & goldhunter), there's a 90% probability you'll lose." In fact, I could accurately say the same to a subset of gamblers already playing the futures game!

But if they did the intelligent thing and quit, what would happen to your game? So the continuation of the futures game requires, essentially, 90% of the players to be suckers. And that's BEFORE TSHTF and they change the rules in mid contest to favor the "home team."

I'm not condemning the game -- I made my bread and butter in a similar situation for over 25 years -- taking money from casinos who took it from the, essentially, suckers who played their games. And I often thought how ironic it was that the casinos promoted their operation to attract suckers, but anytime they discovered I wasn't one, would bar me or otherwise throw me out.

I can't count the number of times over the years I warned friends and acquaintences not to play the games because they didn't know enough to be playing. Some of them won anyway despite the odds, a few quit their jobs -- and when they went back to their day job after the inevitable loses, well they went back to start, did not pass go, and did not collect $200. (Obscure reference to the game of Monopoly.) Presumably they just paid dearly for an important piece of education.

But I felt somewhat responsible, because some of them were trying to emulate what I did without taking the time and effort to learn what they needed to play well enough to win. Does this strike any chord within you? On the other hand, they contributed, no matter how reluctant I am to admit it, to my income.

I assume then, that you're a professional futures gambler, and you believe you can beat the game. I'll even assume you're right -- at least as the rules are currently written.

Let me tell you about a professional gambler friend of mine, sharper than I am. I dubbed him and a couple other younger guys the "techno gamblers." The three of them carried TI programmable caluclators with them into the casinos. They would look at the rules, check their bankroll size, and go into the rest room and come out with the perfect betting strategy. You don't get any sharper.

But one of them, I call him Grasshopper, got taken. He held chips from a major casino too long (there are logical reasons to hold chips.) The casino changed chips, which they do periodically. Normally they honor anyone holding older chips, but they knew Grasshopper could beat them. So on a flimsy technicallity (see Florida currently for examples of similar), they refused to redeem his chips.

Five years, several hearings, many man-weeks, and a law-suit later, Grasshopper collected his money. He was persistent and lucky -- and poorer to the tune of lawyer fees and inflation.

He was among the best and brightest. I'll assume you are too. But will COMEX change the rules on you? Will you be able to get those hearings and afford the lawyers? Will you even be able to get the case into court? What's the precedent? HINT: I think it was Black Blade who documented that the best, and several other posters contributed too.

So I think it entirely appropriate to warn that 90% of those reading this site (a random sample, afterall) should not be playing futures at all, even if the cage redeems their chips in the way you expect. And FOA has warned -- and others have documented -- that they have cheated in the recent past when under duress, and, for that matter, the distant past (Hunt Bros.). What makes you think they won't again?

Is YOUR bankroll sized accordingly?

Regards,
Journeyman

P.S. Just a very tenuous read on the last sentence of your post: Are you thinking about going back to your day job??


Rockgrabber (12/3/2000; 14:58:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 42806)
Sorry for driving off the road.
I do have to say, I usually dont like it when ones deviate from relevent stories that relate to GOLD here. And I do it all the time(Sorry) Anyways cant wait till see this week in the markets!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am all fired up for this week! Matter of fact the whole year.

THANKS TRAIL GUIDE, AND ALL. Its really a cool trip through life when you have a road map of where we are heading. All of us here are sure lucky we are seeing this battle from these lines, and we are not going to have to fight on the front lines with almost everybody else. We get to veiw this war from a room sheltered from the bullets desighned to rip us apart. If we take to heart what we know here, we are at least immortal from a wealth standpoint.

Physical Gold will make you immortal to loosing your wealth. That is what Trail guide and others are saying. It may not be immposible to see the paper price of gold go somewhere, but it may not happen while you hold it on paper. But if you hold physical it will be yours when the time does come.


goldfan (12/3/2000; 14:51:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 42805)
What's it all about?
To me, life has become very simple, Either I have enough, or I don't. Either I can get enough, or I can't.

...and the time is surely coming, when I will no longer be able to get gold.

FWIW
Goldfan

justamereBear (12/3/2000; 14:43:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 42804)
CavanMan Hill Billy Mitchell 42781/2 Pandagold 42781 BlackBlade Parsifal

CavanMan
Forgive me if I intrude on a private conversation. As Canuck says, the Bay of Fundy, and the St Johns river valley can be very pretty, particularly from late May to early July. One of my 3 favorite memories was a view of the St Johns river view from quite a distance up, on the old Trans Canada Hiway, with all of the deep emerald greens of the forests contrasting with the light blue of the river. Of course this was in the 50's, so things have changed. I also love the outwardness and simplicity of the people. Plunge right in, it is fun.

If I were planning such a trip, and had the time, I would spend a day or so in, particularly, old Montreal, a day in Quebec city, 9You have to try some of the resuarants) and then take the highway along the south shore of the St. Lawrence River all the way to the Atlantic, and down around the Gaspe penninsula. It is stunning, but a somewhat slow drive in parts because of some switchbacks. It will take you a day more than you plan. You can come back via Fundy, and maybe also get into Vermont, parts of which are beautiful too.

Parsifal 42790
Interesting train of thought, that.

Hill Billy Mitchell
42782 Our strategies seem very similiar according to all I see. For fun, and enlightenment, if you want to compare strategies further, Email me at currie@mqcinc.com Great minds think alike, it seems. (smile)
42781 Largely concur here too.

Pandagold 42780
What, the world isn't all black and white. You mean to tell me there are some grey areas too??

Black Blade
Retirement?? Define retirement. Is it doing more or less what you want to? Personally, I love my line of work, and it sounds as if you do too. So occasionally I play at something that makes obscene amounts of fiat, and then I play at something that spends it, or at least occupies a good deal of my time and interest. Am I retired? If I am not, I hope never to be. Sounds pretty much like what you describe.

Congratulations and/or best wishes, whichever you choose

Off to do some charity stuff.

j'Bear



Henri (12/3/2000; 14:24:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 42803)
Rockgrabber
Makes sense to me. It was over when the Way was opened for us to follow...for those who received the message. But now back to physical vs. paper gold discussion as opposed to gold to be found in the hearts of personkind.



Henri (12/3/2000; 14:11:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 42802)
TEDW msg 42796
Thanks TEDW, you are of course right about the thief. I speak only in half truths and only as I know them or think them at the time and readily admit that the world at large is a much more complex and beautiful place than I could ever give it credit for in words. The thief entered the Kingdom of Heaven in death. "...all he did was recognize and be sorry for his own sinfulness..." Repentance is a fine and beautiful thing when facing death but what of the living? Is it not possible to enter a Heaven on earth by receiving both the Savior and His word? He said, "...follow me and you shall have everlasting life". Did He mean after our death on earth? He really wasn't that specific. I have found that such a life in the here and now is possible and begins when one strives to grow in spirit. When one strives to live with the Spirit and not in spite of it, then our pasing from this world comes as no suprise.

Rockgrabber (12/3/2000; 13:41:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 42801)
PSALMS 33:8-10
Henri & *TEDW*. Way to make it easy to see hard ansers. But all those thoughts are prevented from being seen, unless one is granted to see it due to ones secret works being seen by the Spirit as being good. People judge, therefore thier thoughts are thwarted, actually to take that farther our thoughts are thwarted to the degree of us doing BAD. Or we see that much better, the better we strive to due right. By forgiving others is doing right, that will make things more clear. "And the very ones hating the righteous one will be held guilty". The righteous ones are so cause they do not hold any guilty, they know it is not for them to do. I am sorry my thoughts are not maybe making much sense.

Are we hippocrites???
We enforce the ten comandments with capitol punishment.

I cant wait for all this to be over.

Hard assets...Easy access (12/3/2000; 13:36:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 42800)
Happy Holidays from Centennial Precious Metals and USAGOLD
http://www.usagold.com/jewelry/goldjewelry.html

With the holiday season well upon us, do you dread the thought of venturing out to vie for parking space and fight the crowds of holiday shoppers? We invite you to relax in the comfort of your own home and take a close look at our festive gold coin jewelry offerings, suitable for any special occasion. 'Tis the Season, fellow goldmeisters, and what better gift...than the Gift of Gold! If you think these golden beauties are something on the computer screen, they'll knock you over in person. We invite you to contact Marie Ballard and she will be happy to help you select that perfect gift that's sure to please -- bullion coin pendants, historical pendants, gold chains and accessories, all at prices you are unlikely to find at the local jewelry store.

All of us here at USAGOLD/Centennial Precious Metals extend our best wishes to you and your families for a restful and fun-filled holiday season. Thank you for making this web site possible with your gold purchases through Centennial Precious Metals. It is you who nourish these pages and we appreciate the opportunity to do business with you!

Call 800-869-5115 and ask for Marie. . . or visit the link above to get a better idea what we're talking about .......... In order to assure getting your Gift of Gold into your hands before Christmas, we recommend that you place your order by December 15th.

JavaMan (12/3/2000; 13:02:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 42799)

While I have not the expertise to participate in the debates that occasionally rage regarding the merits of paper vs physical gold, I rely on my instincts in such matters, and sleep well.

I don't know for sure if the lifetime of the $U.S. dollar is drawing to an end or not but I feel it is wise to insure against such eventuality.

I don't know what the nth horseman will be or what event will plunge the current state of affairs into irrevocable chaos and disaster.

But there is one thing I know unequivocally, and that is that tedw, in his msg# 42796 has just presented the clearest, simplest, most succinct message of the gospel (good news) anyone will find anywhere.



Pandagold (12/3/2000; 12:46:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 42798)
Errors
It is amazing how, sometimes, glaring errors are not spotted until after we post our messages. I did, of course, mean 'core' issue and not 'chore' issue.

Sharing with you, and especially on this vibrant topic of common interest could never be a 'chore'. Although I am sure, from the standard of intelligence that is evident from your contributions, my meaning would have been understood, I apologise.

I hope that one day Microsoft will come up with a means of spotting these errors of syntax, and semantics and the like as it does spelling and general grammar.


JMB (12/3/2000; 12:24:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 42797)
TEDW
You have just amazed me....thank you.

tedw (12/3/2000; 12:10:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 42796)
More thoughts on a Sunday morning
Henri:

"What power can absolve us of our transgressions as if they never occured.The answer is none"

And then you go on to say we earn it by forgiving others.

I think you are close to the Truth Henri.But think about the thief dying on the cross next to Christ. He had no opportunity to forgive others for his life was over. In fact, it seems to me all he did was recognize and be sorry for his own sinfulness and see that the Lord was an innocent man. And he asked to be remembered, and he was.

No doctrine of the Trinity,no going to Church,nothing but sincere repentenace and asking Christ to rember him when he came into his kingdom.

"For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.......And it is by Gods will that we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all. " That is the power that can absolve us of our sins as if they never occured.

That being said,you are right about forgiving others.The parable of the wicked servant makes it clear that if we are not patient,long-suffering,non-resentful and loving toward those who tresspass against us, we will not be forgiven.

"If ye do not forgive men their tresspasses against you,neither will my Father in heaven forgive you your tresspasses."

And that, I submit, is more important than all the Gold that ever was or ever will be.

SHIFTY (12/3/2000; 12:07:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 42795)
Peter Asher
Something big is lurking and it's not Santa!
I think Java Man summed up your msg#: 42789 with the words ..."scary, isn't it? "
Let's hope and pray that does not happen. I feel that something big is lurking and it's not Santa.
Too many things going on and gold just sits there.
Maybe tonight we will see gold start its move up.
I'm off to plant some sugar snap peas and check my hens.

Did you get my re-e-mail?

$hifty



DaveC (12/3/2000; 12:00:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 42794)
Peter Asher (12/03/00; 08:45:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 42789)
www.keepclinton.com
Just found this link today. Excuse me while I go barf!




JavaMan (12/3/2000; 10:36:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 42793)
(No Subject)
Peter Asher, your msg#: 42789...scarey, isn't it?

According to the XX amendment, Section 1. states: "The terms of the President and Vice President shall end at noon on the 20th day of January..."

This being the case, I would expect it is up to Congress to name the successor. The only thing that could keep Clinton in office, perhaps, would be some extenuating circumstances, i.e. Executive Order, or national emergency, for this not to be the case. Not out of the question though...some international event or, some internal event, as I've mentioned before, failure of the PPT to intervene in the stock market. If there was true panic and chaos in the markets, the majority of people in this country would be too concerned and caught up in their fear of losing "everything" to be concerned about one more "slight of hand" from Slick Willy. I really hope I'm wrong.


Henri, thanks for your msg#: 42786. You said, "It is our own minds that torture us with concepts such as guilt, remorse, sorrow and torment. Is it possible that there is another paradigm that is not burdened by such afflictions? A world that is not Hell on earth? A world where only current actions have impact and intent is the soul measure of worth of such action?"

Reminds me of the saying "Life on earth is as close to Hell as the true Christian ever gets...and as close to Heaven as the non-believer ever gets".


I realized earlier that in my eagerness to jump back into the discussion, I was remiss in not thanking those who expressed their condolences to me and my family on the recent loss of my father-in-law.

Many thanks to you for caring.



Mr Gresham (12/3/2000; 9:55:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 42792)
Dancin' Dubya
http://www.gopfun.com/index.htm
But it works fine when I post stuff like this!

Mr Gresham (12/3/2000; 9:47:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 42791)
Site trouble?
Hey, this posting glitch is great! Everytime I say something nasty or OT, it hangs my browser window and won't post it!

Black Blade: Love ya, bro! I told our quackers to stay close to the pond this winter.

No, am I being paranoid, or does anyone else wonder: TrailGuide back, site troubles. (Hey, didn't he leave right before all those election glitches? (smile)


Parsifal (12/03/00; 09:03:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 42790)
Pandagold: msg#: 42780, Touching many areas of recent contributions.

> The US has a mere 5% of the world?s population, yet it
> has 25% of the world?s incarcerated.

Yes, the US has produced a society that does this. Generally, the incarcerated, those who dare to rebel, often in open defiance, are people with a sense of justice that predates the present era. That is the opinion I formed after spending much time working closely as a volunteer with many maximum security inmates.

It is possible that the US prison system serves the establishment very well as a pressure relief valve. The inmates, generally male, are typically physically strong, strong willed, bold, not easily intimidated, willing to take risks, etc. Many of the inmates' positive character traits are presently devalued in US society. Even if they commit no crime, they are not just unneeded, they are seen as painfully embarrassing nuisances.

In the US, much is not what it seems, and people who refuse to go with the flow become problems. Gold owners may be seen in the same light. One can put himself in a disadvantaged position if he continually behaves as if he truly expects others to act according to high ideals. Has it ever been otherwise? Let us take note of the TOCOM/Palladium market official rules changes recently described here in this forum, the Hunt sliver market debacle, and predictions that paper gold will become worthless. Unjust? Well, what are you willing to do about it? Careful, many actions will get you incarcerated, and don't expect a lot of help.

Surrender your gold? What else will you surrender? Maybe some powerful people will find that out. It appears that debtor's prison has become a reality in the US for some who do not pay child support, and it is likely that debtor's prison soon will become a reality for others too.

I expect that all societies throughout history have produced men like many of those we presently incarcerate here in the US. They are troublesome, to say the least. I also expect its likely that this type of man was previously used (expended) in revolutions, war campaigns, conquering the wilderness, that kind of thing.

Parsifal


Peter Asher (12/03/00; 08:45:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 42789)
Here it comes!
http://www.newsmax.com/showinsidecover.shtml?a=2000/12/2/233130

With Carl Limbacher and NewsMax.com Staff

Sunday Dec. 3, 2000; 12:33 AM ET
------------
Meanwhile, on Saturday's New York Times op-ed
page, New York University Law Professor Stephen
Gillers argued that Clinton should remain
president past January 20 while Bush and Gore
fight it out.

"It's right there in the 20th Amendment to the
Constitution, passed in 1933," explained
Gillers.

"On Jan. 6, Congress is supposed to count the
electoral votes and pick a president. But if, in
the language of the amendment, it decides that
no one has yet 'qualified' for the job, it can
pass a law 'declaring who shall then act as
President....until a President or Vice President
shall have qualified.'

"Surely," said Gillers, "Bill Clinton would be
willing to stay on for a few weeks."

Canuck (12/03/00; 08:36:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 42788)
Replies
@ Rockgrabber,

Thanks for the notes on the Iraqi situation.

@ Cavan Man,

How are you sir? Interesting question; to what does this pertain?

The family took a trip 'out east' this summer, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island and Nova Scotia. I am from Ottawa and since it was my first trip east I cannot say that I am up on my geography (in that area).

However, during the Nova Scotia tour the family checked out the Bay of Fundy from a southwestern viewpoint. The Bay of Fundy is a small narrow body of water that separates N.S. from N.B. to the north (generally speaking) and as one southwest along the western shore of Nova Scotia you come closer and closer to Maine. My understanding is that the is a ferry from both Portland and Bar Harbor (Maine) to Yarmouth, Nova Scotia.

Hold the line....accessing map/atlas.

Ahh, yes; Yarmouth is at the most southwestern tip of Nova Scotia perhaps 200 miles from Portland and 150 miles to Bar Habor. I have heard that a six hour ferry trip takes you from Portland to Yarmouth, N.S. At the most northeastern tip of Maine to the most southwestern tip of N.S. spans a mere 50 miles, looking at the town of Cutler, Maine to Little River, N.S.

Planning a 'cross-Atlantic' swim C.M.? (smile)

wolavka (12/3/2000; 8:20:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 42787)
usx
watch them dump u.s. steel.

Henri (12/3/2000; 7:48:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 42786)
Thoughts for a Sunday Morning
The human mind is an incredible vehicle. Each of us struggle daily to "make sense" of the world. In doing so, we accept those occurrences and observations that are consistent with our view of the world, and we reject those that are found to be inconsistent. In so doing, we instantly establish limitations to our perceptual boundaries. It is said that we actively use only a small fraction of our brain's capacity. Could it possibly be that this is a self inflicted condition? To the extent that we find our perception of the world agrees with that of others around us we consider ourselves either sane or questionable. When large groups of individuals adopt a similar perception of the world, these individual measures of sanity take on a larger than self quality. They become a paradigm (if you will)… a defacto standard of interacting with the world that is, within a small circle of friends, "the way things are". This is known as the "age of reason". It is an age where the presumption of cause and effect is paramount. The establishment of this paradigm is a process that entails a great deal of judgement…of comparing this or that to the local "standard of behavior". The maintenance of such a standard is often accompanied by a preponderance of prejudice. In the "age of reason" judgement and prejudice are a way of life.

We establish rule of law and government to delineate and protect the boundaries of our reality. We imbue this governance with broad powers of enforcement. That which is not consistent with the "common belief" is not acceptable. Individuals exhibiting behavioral inconsistencies are at best criticized or ignored, and at worst pilloried or incarcerated. We imbue the governance with our noblest of intentions, charity and help for those misfortunate enough to be outside the confines of our collective paradigm. By the act of empowerment of the governance with responsibility for the well being of all, we displace from the individual the spiritual benefit gained in the act of giving and charity and we absolve ourselves from the responsibility for the well being of others. We have been absolved from the responsibility to ask "who are we to judge?" for the paradigm will take all such matters into consideration and the system will render a verdict. In the age of reason, we have also been absolved of the responsibility to ask "who are we to give"? Once we adopt such a paradigm, we eliminate something very important from our lives. Freedom. Freedom to think and believe as we see fit within ourselves. Freedom to grow spiritually.

What has all this got to do with matters of the spirit? I am struck today by a paradox of sorts. In a spiritual sense, judgement and its paradigmatic extension, prejudice, are at one extreme end of our spiritual being, while giving and its own extension, forgiving, are at the other extreme. Who are we to judge the actions of another when our minds are locked into such a limited perspective of the world? On the other hand, the answer to the question "Who are we to give?" seems quite clear. It is in giving that we define our spiritual selves. Is the act of giving opening oneself to the possibility that there is yet another paradigm which does not have basis in reason…is exempt from the tenants of cause and effect? Do we fear departure from our paradigm so much that we are willing to forgo the rigors of spiritual growth? Is it possible that giving without measure, gives in return more than the value bestowed? Giving is as necessary to our spiritual health as judgement is crucial to our "mental" health in the age of reason. It occurs to me that from a spiritual sense we can no more accept judgement and prejudice than we can ask for forgiveness. What power can absolve us of our transgressions as if they had never occurred? The answer is none. We can only receive forgiveness by earning it. What toil can earn such a reward? Overcoming the resistance within the self to forgive others for their transgressions. When the Lord 's prayer was revealed to us it contained this answer. "…and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us."

It is our own minds that torture us with concepts such as guilt, remorse, sorrow and torment. Is it possible that there is another paradigm that is not burdened by such afflictions? A world that is not Hell on earth? A world where only current actions have impact and intent is the soul measure of worth of such action? Those who know the answer to this question roam the world with inappropriate smiles. They are outside the age of reason. They are unexplainably happy. They are free.



Canuck (12/3/2000; 7:35:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 42785)
@ Kaknut
What makes you think the loonie will rise so significantly against the US$?

Please recall that the US$ has raged against most currencies around the world while the 'loonie' has (more or less) stayed at par (approx. 64-69 cents) during this so why will the loonie suddenly break trend and watch the USD fall?

Canuck

JavaMan (12/3/2000; 7:35:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 42784)
Hello Pandagold,
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. You said "Control a nation's money supply and you control its economy and, consequently, that nation."

It looks like it is the world's money supply that is being controlled, via the $U.S. and thus the world that will be controlled. I don't believe this would be possible if currencies were backed by hard assets. Curious that all currencies are fiat. That the IMF demands that no currencies may be backed by gold.

On the brighter side, if it makes you feel any better, the movie U-571 did acknowledge Britain as the first to get the Enigma in the credits after the movie.


And now for some local news from "The Triangle" the area between Raleigh, Durham and Chapel Hill in North Carolina:

<<Gas bills put Triangle manufacturers in tough spot. Some companies may be unable to operate at current levels if natural-gas rates keep rising. By CHRIS SERRES, Staff Writer

A steep increase in the price of natural gas could force some Triangle manufacturers to cut back production.

"You've got some companies that are barely breaking even, and then they open their mail and see their gas bills," said Jerry Roberts, executive director of the Carolina Utility Customers Association, which represents 63 of North Carolina's largest manufacturers before the state's Utilities Commission. "They may not be left with much choice [but to cut production]."

Natural-gas prices surged to a 10-year high this week because of a larger-than-expected decline in U.S. gas inventories. Natural gas for January delivery rose 1.3 percent Friday to a record 66.7 cents per therm on the New York Mercantile Exchange.

North Carolina's gas companies, which have raised rates four times this year, probably will seek another increase next month, said Gene Curtis, director of the gas division of the N.C. Utilities Commission.

"If natural gas is your primary source of energy, then this winter is getting pretty brutal," Curtis said.

Just ask Richard Parr, manager of Cargill Inc.'s 70-person food-processing plant in Raleigh, which uses natural gas to fuel huge steam boilers that extract oil from soybeans.

Parr calculates that the Raleigh plant is paying three times more for natural gas than it did a year earlier, pushing up the plant's monthly operating costs by 15 percent. Although the plant is still making a profit, the high natural-gas prices don't leave the plant with much room to maneuver; just a slight increase in soybean prices could make the plant unprofitable, Parr said.

As a result, Cargill may be forced to curb production at the facility, which now operates around the clock seven days a week. Eliminating one shift is an option, Parr said.

"Look, if it gets to the point where we can't make a profit, then we will examine ways to reduce costs," Parr said. "Cutting production is certainly one option."

In the past, some manufacturers have responded to high natural-gas prices by switching to oil. But the wholesale price for heating oil increased 54 percent to $1.04 per gallon in November from 67.5 cents per gallon during November 1999. "When prices [between heating oil and natural gas] are this close, substitution no longer makes sense," Curtis said.

The Triangle Brick Co., which operates a 200-person factory in Raleigh, is a prime example.

The plant fuels its brick-making ovens, which reach temperatures of more than 2,000 degrees, with gas. The company considered switching to heating oil but decided the prices were too similar, said Richard Mollenkopf, vice president and chief financial officer.

"Either way -- gas or oil -- we're getting burned," Mollenkopf said.

Triangle Brick is trying to negotiate lower natural-gas rates with PSNC Energy, the Triangle's largest provider of natural gas. But Mollenkopf isn't optimistic. PSNC Energy has raised its natural-gas rates four times this year.

Unless rates come down, Triangle Brick may have to shut off its ovens during the last week of December to cut costs, he said. "We'll try to keep the ovens fired as long as we can," Mollenkopf said.

Morton Metalcraft of Raleigh has been scouring for ways to reduce its natural-gas bills, which have doubled in the past year. The company depends on natural gas to fuel huge, 450-foot ovens that dry and seal metal parts produced for John Deere and Caterpillar.

Bud Rehl, manager of manufacturing operations at Morton, got excited when he began describing a new kind of paint that dries at a lower temperature. "With [natural-gas] prices this high, even small changes can make a big difference," Rehl said.

The record gas prices also are hitting home in the Triangle, where PSNC has about 200,000 customers who are paying 25 percent more for gas this year than they did in 1999. This year's increases, which included a 4 percent jump in October, will add $15 to the average monthly bill for residential customers.>>

Kaknut (12/3/2000; 7:26:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 42783)
Cnadian Sucker
Gold as an investment Re Canadian Loony.

Gold Coins--- You can purchase a Year 2000 gold Coin at the Canadian mint for $999.99 called the Pacific Dogwood--- the face value of the coin is $350.00 --- The weight of the coin is 38.05 grams. That's Trudeau Measure so we'll stay clear of that one.

You can purchase a 1 Ounce maple leaf gold coin for $281.10 US. In Loony money it would cost you $434.13 per coin based on the present market gold price of $266.45 US per ounce. You can also purchase 1 ounce gold bars at $433.12 Canadian.

God It's great to be a frigin Canadian, the greatest country in the world if you believe Chretienstine --- We have to damn near pay twice what the Yankee pays for an ounce of bloody gold bullion, plus everything else for that matter.

So lets explore for argument--- say you purchase 100 1 oz gold bars @ a cost of $43,312.00 Canadian as an investment ---- You store them in a safety deposit box and the Canadian Loony rises to 75 cents US and the price of gold is still $266.45 an Ounce US. --- The value of your gold in the deposit box just dropped to $41,632.81 ---

Lard Jasus Chretch am I right??? If the Firkin Loony gains in Value and gold remains stagnant I loose - --- So Jasus If our dollar gains in value to be on par with the US Dollar, My gold in the bank would be worth $26,645.00 US or Canadian--- Where in the Hell did my other $16,667.00 go???? Correct me if I'm wrong.

In other words, if the Canadian dollar rises to par with the US Buck the price of gold would nearly have to double for me to break even.

Signify by 2 stomps of your foot if you agree---

Hill Billy Mitchell (12/3/2000; 7:18:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 42782)
Exit Strategy and the possibilities of upheaval
justamereBear @ # 42666 says: …"my concern is that if we get some form of upheaval that the rapidly changing conditions will promote some pretty irrational thinking, which in turn will create more tension… trade can be accomplished without a medium of exchange, but it is easier using a common medium of exchange. Personally, I feel strongly that I want to be in a position to accomplish trade if some form of meltdown occurs. Anything I can accomplish now when more or less rational thinking is the order of the day, I want to do. No one can know how the future will play out, but we can speculate, and I do. I can't tell how well my plans will work out, but they undoubtedly will be better than no plans. One of my contingency plans involves precious metals, much like everyone else here. Some others are into Real Estate, which I am not AT THIS TIME. Liquidity and flexibility are the order of the day, IMHO."

My comments:

I concur however I would like to expand just a bit on what you have said if for no other reason but to make it clear that the mention of real estate in the right context is not necessarily bad in times of upheaval. I would like to talk a bit about a partial exit strategy from metals which would make sense if the window of opportunity presents itself.

I will repeat an edited version of my previous post # 32041 dated June 6, 2000 in order to head off any presumptions that I do not consider it appropriate to hold some gold on a permanent basis as a safe haven. My post as abbreviated follows:

'Gold as a safe haven: By this we mean that gold is the haven and that which is harbored there is wealth. The purpose of the haven is that of long-term protection from those forces which would destroy the wealth. Of course if the haven can be destroyed then that which is harbored, the wealth, would be destroyed simultaneously with the destruction of the haven.

Gold is, in this case, the safe haven. Its value as a haven is its indestructibility; ie the intrinsic value does not diminish one iota. One ounce of gold is one ounce of gold is one ounce of gold.

The value of the harbored wealth in terms of fiat prices is determined only twice--1st at the time the wealth moved from fiat to the physical haven, 2nd at the time when the wealth is moved out of the physical haven and back into fiat paper. All speculations as to changes in the value of the wealth stored, (between these two points in time) are meaningless. All that matters are the two points in time when the wealth enters the haven and when it leaves the haven. To move my wealth from the physical haven at this time is anathema to me; however I can only speak for myself. It pleases me that I am the only one who can make the choice concerning the location of my wealth.' HBM

End of repost_______________

Sir JBear, I as you am not in real estate at this time. I see no problem with holding real estate in the form of a personal home and shelter at this time as long as the investment happens to be debt free. Real estate in general is at nose bleed price levels at this time and if I were to own any of it free and clear I would sell high and move that debt free wealth in to the precious physical stuff. At the present I have a large percentage of my wealth stored in physical PM's due to the simple fact this is the second time in my life when it has made complete sense. The first time was in the mid 70's - early 80's. I was young and ignorant. I had everything in real estate leveraged to the hilt. It goes without saying that I was forced to sell low and start over again at the age of 34. I may make a mistake but I will not make that particular mistake again. I plan a partial exit from PM's should the opportunity present itself and, should that opportunity arrive, I have no doubt that a small amount of PM will purchase a huge amount real estate. When my gold leaves the safe harbor and enters into fiat it will be in fiat only a day or so as the fiat will be used only to facilitate the exchange.

Provision will be made for non-parishable and durable consumables is being made in advance. If for some reason I am not able to make the partial exit due to a break down in trade prior exit, I should be able to get by with a considerable hoard of circulated pre-64 silver coins.

Sir JBear, you are absolutely correct. We are I think on the same page. "Liquidity and flexibility are the order of the day."

HBM


Hill Billy Mitchell (12/3/2000; 6:59:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 42781)
Conspiracy and the strength of the US$
Sir Journeyman @ 42539 states - "…all this talk of a weakening dollar, repatriation, current accounts deficits, etc., lead me to believe the move to bring the 'strong dollar' down is afoot. Such a move wouldn't have to include US PTB -- maybe FOA's group?? -- but I have an intuition that it DOES and that Sec. Of Treasury, Larry Summers, despite his recent statements (they regularly lie just before such moves) is involved. This is an intuition only."

Sir JBear @ # 42544 stated, "No I personally do not think there is a conspiracy to bring down the dollar. The results of a lower dollar are likely to accelerate to an even lower dollar and all sorts of problems. Note, the US is already NOT exporting many goods, and it is my belief that this is not so much from the high dollar as the inability of many countries (consumers) to purchase at any price, so I wouldn't think that US exports would appreciate nearly as much as might be indicated by a lower dollar…If there is a conspiracy, it is to keep the dollar up, not bring it down."

My Comments:

The prospects of a conspiracy to bring the dollar down on the one hand and a conspiracy to keep the dollar up on the other hand are not mutually exclusive for two reasons. First it must be admitted that the possibility of two conflicting conspiracies between warring power centers can be in progress at the same time. Secondly it is possible for a single power center to be involved in a single conspiracy to first push the dollar up and hold it there as long as necessary with the full intention of forcing it down into oblivion when the opportunity arises. Such a power does not require loyalty to any country. Such a power would of necessity have to be formidable. Such a power would require intellectual, political, and monetary resources necessary to pull off such a feat. The intellectual resources would involve the knowledge of the necessity of a replacement for the US$ as a reserve currency. The political resources would entail the tacit cooperation of the significant governments involved to pull such a plan off. The monetary resources would of necessity be provided by the central banks of the significant governments involved. Make no mistake about it - if such a conspiracy is in place, and I believe one is, the conspirators are G-7 nations who can pull any and all other nations in tow. The so-called US citizens involved are simply traitors. The non-US citizens involved cannot be blamed, as the US hegemony has, no doubt, been unbearable to them.

It would be nice if ANOTHER were wrong. We must brace ourselves for the strong possibility that
ANOTHER is right.

In regards to the trade deficit I firmly believe that the real problem is not so much one of a strong dollar as it is the willingness of the US to create enough fiat to not only satisfy the international reserve requirements and prop up the equity markets but also to provide the debt money required to allow the US citizenry to absorb all of the poor quality goods and services produced which do not meet the quality requirements vs. price of the international buyer. Very simply put we do not produce goods and services in the US which are desireable enough to the international community for them to pay the same price that US citizens are willing to pay with the easily accessed US dollars through the nearly unlimited credit provided by the US central bank in collusion with the US Treasury Department. The worm is beginning to turn as we speak. The tightening of the Fed for the last year is beginning to eliminate the demand required to absorb the so called "highly productive" US economy. This fall off in consumer demand being forced by the Fed was to long in coming and a soft landing is impossible at this point. The landing can be postponed for a relatively short period by massive further infussions of fiat by the Fed but the landing will come and when it comes it will be hard. It is the temperature inversion "thingy" in conjunction with nstability in almost every area of the international environment.

HBM


Pandagold (12/3/2000; 6:54:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 42780)
Touching many areas of recent contributions.

Oh wad some power the gift to gi’e us,
To see ourselves as others see us
It wad frae many a wrong turn free us,
Ai, an’ foolish notion.
(Robert Burns)

(I have changed some of the dialect to make it better understood by nonScots.)

This can be applied to individuals, or nations.


To those of you who take the trouble to read the following, I hope you will understand my reasons for its posting. It may seem, on the surface to be somewhat remote from the chore issue for which this facility has been, generously afforded by Michael Kosares. But, as has been observed by a number of you, there are growing concerns about recent, and not so recent, market and political developments that lead to an assumption that things are not all what they seem. There is great justification for this. And, as I will reinforce again later, I believe our biggest mistake is to allow ourseleves to be conditioned into not seeing the interrelationship.

We are also, in our spontaneous emotional reactions, sometimes obliged to make generalisations, or inferences that were not intended to offend, or mislead, but sometimes do. I can honestly say that I feel the standard of contribution within these columns is high,, and that most of you (I don't recall a particular exception), speak from the heart, with no malice to anyone, except, perhaps, should there be any ‘conspirators’ out there reading this, to them.

I would love to research the background of this, so called, Canadian. However, as I have not the time, I would like to raise a few comments. Where do you think the USA, and most of the rest of the world would be had Britain gone down with the rest of Europe? Germany had rockets long before the United States, and would not have been long before developing a war-head of great devastation. We in Britain know how devastating were the ones she had to start of with. If you think they could never have reached the US eventually, you again delude yourselves. Yet we were left alone for a long time,while the US grew rich. Comments from eminent Americans at the time were such as –"England will get her neck wrung like a chicken".

For the ‘begged for’ help we got before, and even after, America was forced into the war, find out what America got in return – access into strategic areas of the commonwealth of nations Britain built, which is so often derided by America. America gave nothing without getting something of value in return.

Britain has got herself disliked and attacked many times for siding with the US, recently (Bosnia, Gulf War, and Israel/Palestine, in much of its ‘shaky’, one sided, foreign policy.

As for Britain not being able to pay its interest on its borrowings – to coin an Americanism – phooey! Learn the facts.

America via Hollywood's propaganda dressed as entertainment, which is dished out to the world, continually rewrites history to her own best advantage. To recount all the individual cases, would be far too time and space consuming. However, take one recent one about the US navy who captured the ‘Enigma’ machine from a German U-boat – the British achieved this without any outside help. We, and the relatives of the British naval officer who sank that U-boat, are still smarting from this blow to the guts, from a so called ‘friendly nation’. Oh, and neither Steve McQueen, nor any other American was involved in ‘The Great Escape’, nor Colditz ( a new, to be released, movie) People, unfortunately, believe this crap. It has now become a well known cliché in Britain that Hollywood, gives the ‘baddies’ British accents which is especially noticeable with the new owners of Disney , where the original story's British hero is replaced with an American accent and the British accent reserved for some ‘evil’ character. Coincidence? Sorry, happens far too often for that.

Black slavery was abolished in.’ backward, exploitative’ Britain and her Commonwealth (including Canada) over a century before the USA. The American native Indians received far better, humane, treatment from the British than they did from the Americans, that is why so many fled over the border into Canada. And here is one thing that gets overlooked in American history. To get many American colonists to fight against the British they were promised many things such as large tracts of prime land; after victory – most of them got ‘shafted’ (short changed) NOT by the British, when they, later, went to claim their rights.

American dominated media continually condemns China for Tiannamen, yet overlooks Wacko, and the gunning down of students on campus at Kent university. When you point a finger, America, as you so often do, there are always three pointing back. The US has a mere 5% of the world's population, yet it has 25% of the world's incarcerated. Not exactly a role model to follow. Yet, she wishes to be accepted so.

Now I am anything but ‘ant-American, or anti any other nation, or religion. I have said in my postings that in all my travels, and living in other countries I have found people of all races, creeds and colours to have ‘red blood’ and bleed when they are cut. We all have the same hopes and aspirations in life, and we all want to be respected, loved, and free.

What I am challenging here is that it is not America who is misunderstood. It is America who often creates the misunderstanding of others, and gets their back up.

None of us, individually, or nationally, are pure, nor are we totally tainted. Ancient Britain was conquered and occupied by the Romans for 400 years. The Romans, like all conquerors took, and they gave. We improved our judicial, and administrative system, our roads, and buildings – though much was lost for years after they left. While in principle colonisation is wrong, here again, Britain took, and it gave. Most of those ex-colonies are now amongst the world's better-administered nations. Only the tiny minority who threw out the baby with the bath water are exceptions.

From many postings, which are increasing daily in this and other sites, and now also being voiced by respected, and informed people throughout the world, there is obviously something ‘going on’ deep in the inner sanctums that is over-ruling normal market forces. The world is being manoeuvred along a very dangerous path in a very internationally coordinated way that I somehow feel will affect, adversely, the very thing that so many have died for in the past – FREEDOM.

We hear so often this word conspiracy, sometimes it refers to a particular incident, and at others to something more encompassing. I do not like the word. Words have connotations that distort our ability to comprehend and accept. To many, (including me, I confess) conspiracy probably creates the vision of a group of men sitting around a barrel in a darkened room lit only by candle. You see, in British history, we have the notorious Guy Fawkes (he who would blow up parliament) conspiracy, which we had fed to us in childhood and whose death we celebrate each year by burning his effigy on a bonfire and letting off fireworks.

I have come to believe that perhaps the greatest ‘conspiracy’ is the one to debunk conspiracy theories. This is achieved very simply; you make ‘serious’ comedy films about them. Or you take an important tragic event and create many red herrings and claimed ‘exposed’ explanations that ‘prove’ conspiracy; then later reveal their obvious weaknesses.

This permits the real ‘deception, and its purpose’ to remain concealed.

Control a nation's money supply and you control its economy and, consequently, that nation. You can extend this down to the individual. Paper, or electronic currency, allows this to happen – hence the break with the PM's.

To those of you who are ‘perplexed’ – observe – the truth of what is happening is ‘out there’. Notice that the Euro is hovering around parity with the dollar. More nations are joining the EU and monitory union, slowly but surely. China, via Hong Kong has the dollar in parity with the US. More and more nations of South America are adopting the dollar.

An Asian trade block is being set up. No doubt this will later adopt a one for all currency in the Yuan. Yuan is Chinese for dollar. Three blocks separated, yet united by a common currency (though named differently – like the many large high street stores which retain their original names but are owned by one entity.

Would this mean that America would control the world? No. But the, un-elected, people who control the US will.

Much of what is happening today was foreseen by an American writer more than a century ago, his book has never been recommended reading, I don't think, in the education system, and I have seen no reference to it in the media. I picked it up marked-down in a Taiwan bookshop a few years ago. It is called "Looking Backward" you will understand the title should you decide to read it. The author is Edward Bellamy. Remember, if you do read it, it was first published in the America of 1888. Not all he foresees has yet come to pass, nor will, perhaps, ever as it is too idealistic, but he does foresee, among others, ‘electronic’ currency, the Malls, and the three trading blocks of Asia, Europe and America.

Once again, I hope I have not offended anyone, It was not intended. Forgive me if it appears that I initially, appeared to have strayed from the path. But in this ever changing, perplexing world, so much is inter related. Our greatest mistake could well be that we have allowed ourselves to see things in small daubs. We do not step back from the canvas and view the complete picture and how it is made up from small daubs.


Black Blade (12/3/2000; 6:42:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 42779)
More Oil
"U.S. looks to allies as Iraq shuts oil production" 'Washington [Reuters] — The United States said Friday it is working with allies on possible moves, including the release of petroleum reserves and a surge in production by major oil producers, to make up for lost Iraqi oil exports. Iraq's oil exports ground to a halt Friday after Baghdad insisted that buyers of its crude pay a surcharge outside the terms of the United Nations oil-for-food program that allows it to sell about 2.3 million barrels of oil per day. The contraction in supply, if it drags on, could boost prices of crude and heating oil as winter takes hold in North America, a key issue for the White House which earlier this year tapped its strategic oil reserve to lower prices. "We are working with International Energy Agency members and major oil producers on an oil supply response which, if needed, would more than compensate for the oil volumes which Iraq is threatening to withdraw from the world market," U.S. National Security Council spokesman P.J. Crowley told Reuters. "This would include drawdowns from strategic petroleum stocks as appropriate," Crowley added. Asked if he was referring to the U.S. Strategic Petroleum Reserve as well as other oil stockpiles, the spokesman replied: "Yes." The Paris-based International Energy Agency controls emergency oil inventories held among 24 member countries. U.S. officials said they were prepared to act quickly in concert with the IEA or major oil producing nations if need be, though noted that world oil prices have not jumped dramatically so far on news of the halt in Iraqi oil exports. "This is basically meant to say we're ready," said a senior U.S. official who asked not to be named. "All we have at this point is a political statement by the Iraqis. It will be some time before this suspension is actually felt in terms of oil supplies," said a second senior U.S. official who asked not to be identified. "Obviously, we are and will continue to assess whether and at what point we need to act in response to what Iraq has done today," the second official added. Shippers said there had been no oil loaded at Iraq's Turkish outlet of Ceyhan or the Gulf port of Mina al-Bakr since late on Thursday. Iraq sells about 2.3 million barrels a day under the United Nation's humanitarian exchange, 5 per cent of world oil trade, and traders said a lengthy outage could put fresh pressure under high oil prices. The UN oil-for-food program allows Iraq to escape Gulf War-era sanctions imposed on Baghdad. The White House suggested that Iraq's moves would not help its case within the United Nations. "Iraq's suspension of oil exports is an attempt to coerce the international community," said Mr. Crowley. "We cannot accept Iraq's use of oil as a political weapon. Iraq [should not] believe that a cessation of oil exports will gain it any leverage within the United Nations."

Black Blade: First, OPEC said that it was more likely to cut production in January. Second, OPEC does not have any excess capacity at this point. Third, once the SPR and other oil reserves are drawn down, then what? If the oil producers get on the ball and really push it, they just might be able to squeeze more oil. The cheap stuff is depleting at a rapid rate. This week, a report showed that the Alaskan oil out of Prudhoe Bay is in a serious state of decline. From a rate of 2 million BBL/day to about 800,000 bbl/day now. They had better start getting a jump on the ANWR exploration program soon, and maybe even some nitrogen gas injection into the Prudhoe Bay field. There is plenty of other oil, but it is not the cheap oil that Hydro-Carbon Man is used too. Higher prices are likely to be here to stay with perhaps some temporary dips, but once reality sets it – look out!


Cavan Man (12/3/2000; 6:37:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 42778)
Trail Guide/FOA
Welcome back good friend.

Cavan Man (12/3/2000; 6:35:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 42777)
auspec
You've completed something for me. Thank you very much!

Black Blade (12/3/2000; 5:40:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 42776)
RE: Topaz and Ducks
It is duck and goose season here. Since I put out a few $ for the license and bird stamps, I might as well take advantage of it and fill the freezer. I have ducks and geese all around me. I have mountain streams that empty into 3 small lakes about 100 yards from my front door, and several streams empty into the lowlands into stock ponds and streams below me on a large ranch. I have 2 large freezers filled with trout, chukar, duck, geese, cottontail, some venison and elk. I even have some buffalo steaks from a family member who bagged a bison in Utah last year. Last night I last orange glazed duck (cooked in a crock-pot with orange sauce, and then broiled), served over rice with Pi--on nuts. In fact, I'm heading out to nail a few more birds at sun up. Only 2 more months of hunting season. I don't have to purchase much from the supermarket. I even barter with a couple of neighbors (game for garden fresh veggies). Heck, I even brew some of my own beer (of variable quality), though I prefer Moose Drool and Anchor Steam Porter. I cross-country ski and snowshoe in the winter, rock-climb, mountain bike, and hike in the summer, hunt and fish whenever possible, and try to find time to work in between. I work at home when I can, though at times I have to travel abroad for some clients. Life is too short to be a couch potato. Besides, I have too much fun living life for all it's worth. I wonder what I'll do when I retire ;-)

wolavka (12/3/2000; 5:37:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 42775)
Europe we have chocolate covered cottonballs
"Okay let me see if I've got this straight, In order to be grounded I've got to be crazy. And I must be crazy to be flying, But if I ask to be grounded, that means I'm not crazy anymore and have to keep flying."

Topaz (12/3/2000; 4:57:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 42774)
Black Blade
G'day BB,
Mate, with all that duck shootin you've been doing of late, there's either no Ducks left in them thar parts or you're a crook shot <wink>


Black Blade (12/3/2000; 4:43:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 42773)
RE: Mr. Gresham #42694
Mr. Gresham: I hope that you didn't extrapolate that the twist on Aesop's fable had anything to do with racist connotations. I found the story to be an interesting statement on US social policy, whether implicit or implied. Some may take it as a slap at "White Liberal Guilt", or others may even try to see it as a prejudicial view of white vs. minority. Perhaps the reference to Jesse Jackson was misleading. Personally I think that looking at the story in the context of a racial view of the US is quite a stretch. The story is simply an allegory that cuts across all racial and socioeconomic boundaries. How you come to such a ridiculous conclusion is beyond me.

The US is one huge contradiction in terms of social, political, and economic policy. We claim equality for all regardless, yet we condemn those who become successful. We also reward those who make no effort to better themselves. In the US, even the legal system is used as a form of lottery. If you sue and win, then you get the grand prize (though it is usually the scumbag lawyer who gets the biggest piece of the pie). For example, in a recent case, a woman had hot coffee spilt on her by a handicapped restaurant worker. She sued the restaurant because they hired a handicapped person – supposedly knowing that she could have spilled hot coffee on a patron. I probably should mention that if the restaurant had refused to employ the handicapped person for that very reason, then the restaurant would be liable under the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act). Of course the woman's husband sued because he has not had the privilege of having his sexual urges satisfied by his not mentally anguished and supposedly disabled wife. Hmmmm…….

Look at the political realities in the US. For example, just look at how the US media demonizes anyone who is not a wimpy suck-up Liberal drone. Special councilor Ken Starr was doing his job as mandated by LAW and ordered by A.G. Janet Reno when he investigated Bill and Hillery. He had to pursue the investigation regardless of where it led. Yet, the media drones and the Liberal elitists set out to demonize him and ruin his career. Currently the media drones and Liberal elitists are demonizing the Floriduh Secretary of State Katherine Harris for doing her job while obeying the LAW. Should these people violate the LAW to appease those who have no respect for the LAW? I'm not sure where you are from Mr. Gresham, but here in the US, we have gone from common sense to absolute absurdity.

Now, before you make anymore assumptions, let me state for the record - I am not a Liberal or Conservative. The story only reflects the world around us, particularly those of us in the US and maybe a few other formerly oppressed Brit colonies. I just observe the world around me, and "if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck", and then I'm pretty damn sure that it's a duck! BTW, yesterday morning I shot 2 mallards, 2 pintails, and one teal.

wolavka (12/3/2000; 4:16:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 42772)
more news coming soon
Gold/genetic research

Zenidea (12/3/2000; 3:09:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 42771)
The turks are irked !
http://www.eurekalert.org/releases/tamu-ale120100.html
Were they buying up huge sums of Au ?

Zenidea (12/3/2000; 3:01:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 42770)
(No Subject)
http://www.eurekalert.org/releases/tamu-ale120100.html
medical use Au

elevator guy (12/3/2000; 2:02:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 42769)
So what are we doing here?
Almost everyone in here is convinced that you can not "win the game" by going long in paper gold derivatives.

And this assumation is "set in stone", because of the way the evil gold shorts and carriers and the ESF have stomped on the price discovery mechanism, stomped it into the dirt, never to rise again. (Take note that I am referring to paper price derivatives, not physical gold)

And so if the paper price of gold is so most assuredly to stay down, and if we are so most assuredly to lose our hard earned dollars by going long gold paper, then....

Why not short the market? Sell calls, naked or covered?

Seems like a safe thing to do until the dam starts to crack.

Couldn't be abetter time to walk in the footsteps of those evil giants, who wield the power of the press, who seed the thoughts and deeds of the WGC, who print the FRNs, who pull the strings in the highest places. They are keeping the dollar game afoot by their actions, so dont expect any sudden rush for the exits, because war will be the next option, before they let go of their stranglehold grip of the reserve currency seniorage wealth apparatus.

It seems likely that they will squash gold with all their might, so as to keep the dollar in play. They will also squash the Euro with all their might for the same reason.

Before they give up, they will use the life blood of the common people, to start a war to protect their interests, a war financed by the taxes of little people, a war fought with the blood of the little people.

The shorts/FED/ESF/et al, have unlimited resources. Dont expect any catastrophes to upset the apple cart. TPTB have a lot of tricks up their sleeve.

Sorry to burst anyones bubble. I am not capitulating.

Its just that I feel there will be no major shifts in the price of gold, nor the power structure of the Western world, until all the cards have been dropped from their sleeves, until all the aces have been played, until all the options have been used up.

We have seen gold get sold from Kuwait, among others. Yes, they are positioning themselves. Yes, they are in trouble.

But will it end humbly? Will they just declare bankruptcy, and roll over? I hardly think so.

History has shown us that WAR is the last refuge of the desparate PTB, and this option has not been played to its best hand as yet.

My guess is that some media spin will birth a cause, from which the American people and the world just cant turn away their heads from, and the people will rage in indignation at some manufactured wrong that needs to be righted, and we will once again be pawns in a power struggle that benefits not the common people, but only TPTB, although it will be financed with the common folks tax dollars, and fought with the common folks blood.

Until that day, the paper price and maybe the physical price of gold will remain low, as it must for this age to continue. This is the corner that we are "painted into".

So until the WAR comes, gold will remain stagnant.

Any takers?

Topaz (12/3/2000; 1:39:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 42768)
Bleeder update: mhchuck
Firstly, Great to see you back FOA. Trusting all is well with you and yours?
OK, for those of you following these updates, Yes, BOTH of you, you'll recall last week (thurs) after "rotten" Nett foreign Debt figures were announced The Heamophiliac Aussie Dollar was Lying there, soft underbelly exposed, and I fully expected the Buzzards to swoop and as a secondary consequence, the beginnings of the "real" Gold BULL.
WELL! lo and behold, right on cue the Forex markets found favour with the bleeder, and largely American "interests" ramped it up to a tick under US$0.54. A 5% increase.
But the gnashing of teeth and wringing of palms doesn't stop here... Hell no! The blood sucking parasitic "interests" realise that to achieve the best benefit they keep this baby on it's last gasp, clinging to life in order to forestall margin calls on hedged Aussie Miners. Whats the good of a closed Mine in this climate.
All it will take is for some galoot hedge fund Cowboy or overzealous mutual funder to assess the real worth of the Aussie, short it to buggery and we're under US0.50.
Watch this space!
mhchuck:
Good thoughts. Long time no see?

Perplexed (12/3/2000; 1:01:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 42767)
(No Subject)
mhchuck ms#42693

Very nice post. For me the enormity of the financial problem facing not only the USA but the rest of the world is virtually impossible to comprehend. After spending a life time of working in various physical trades, I can truthfully testify to the fact that satisfaction with the material rewards seldom matches the satisfaction achieved in craftsmanship. In a nutshell,I have never been rolling in money.
Thus, even after again being bludgeoned with the numbers, it is still impossible for me to to really appreciate the magnitude of a billion and certainly a trillion of anything.
While some on the forum see the Euro waiting in the wings to dethrone the dollar, I don't see it happening.I see the decline of the dollar crippling not only every existing currency including the Euro, but every existing government.
In my view, a currency is nothing more than a reprentation of wealth. The wealth created in every nation on the globe by virtue of the strength and stability of the dollar is not going to vanish, but rather represents the potential backing for an entirely new world currency.
Each US dollar represents title to a small part of every form of wealth now existing in the USA. Because the nation proper is its backing, gold is no longer required.
Although it may require many more of them now or in the future than it did in the past to purchase The Radio City Music Hall as an example, so long as a person anywhere in the world may purchase it by acquiring enough of our currency to satisfy the purchase price, the dollar will continue to be considered as good as gold.
Apply this principle to a world currency backed by wealth regardless of where it is located and that same principle will apply.
Being a simple guy with a limited education, I have in all probability, over looked some major reasons why it won't work, if so I am certain that it will pointed out to me. However, at the present it seems as likely a scenario as any.


Still Perplexed

megatron (12/3/2000; 0:21:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 42766)
options/futures/goldhunter assault
forwards,futures swaps,etc are TOOLS! They are sophisticated instuments to be played by those who understand the underlying risk/reward ratio. Period. anyone else who ventures to play will win by dumb luck ONLY!!!
It is excedingly difficult to profit, rigged market or not,and 90% of the players are NOT savvy enough.
If you do not fully understand then please DO NOT COMMENT, otherwise it's merely your OPINION!!! This is in NO way a denial that the COMEX/NYMEX fu##$kers need to be hammered into the groud. This is obvious. But just because YOU CAN'T doesn't mean I CAN'T.



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