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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 3/30/2003
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

(Yesterday's Discussion.)

Waverider (03/30/03; 23:44:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 100602)
Fear of war and illness hurt Asia travel
http://www.iht.com/articles/91491.html
Snip:
"The war in Iraq and the outbreak of a mysterious respiratory ailment that began in China are combining to wreak havoc on tourism in Asia. Leading airlines are scaling back operations in Asia, major hotel chains are reporting an unusual number of cancellations, and travel agencies across the continent say travelers are increasingly reluctant to come to Asia. But now Asians, too, fear Asia. The Chinese are afraid to go to Hong Kong, people in Hong Kong are afraid to go to Singapore, and Singaporeans are afraid of visiting Vietnam. The rest of Asia fears them all, because they are the places most affected."

Waverider: The Director of the Centre for Disease Control (CDC) has indicated that the means of transmission is unclear and that the virus could live up to three hours independent of a host. That's the most reliable information available at this time. The bottom line is no-one knows, so fear is a natural response.

mikal (03/30/03; 23:40:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 100601)
@Old Yeller
EOM targets. And end-of-quarter for some. NIA(Not investment advice or never in aim or never I am right)

Old Yeller (03/30/03; 23:09:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 100600)
Gold in euros
http://stockcharts.com/def/servlet/SC.web?c=$GOLD:$XEU,uu[e,a]ddlaynay[de][pf][i][J10940415,Y]&listNum=1

Seems 350 is the ceiling,for some reason.





Black Blade (03/30/03; 23:00:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 100599)
North American health officials worried over rapid spread of SARS
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20030330/hl_afp/health_pneumonia_canada_030330195139

Snippit:

Health officials in the United States and Canada are worried about the rapid spread of a deadly killer pneumonia that may have infected more than 160 people since jumping from Asia to North America. Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS) has killed about 53, mostly in Asia, according to the World Health Organization. Three people have died in Canada, and the Canadian province of Ontario has 100 possible cases of the illness -- the highest caseload outside Asia. Two hospitals have been closed there and some 1,800 people have been urged to go into voluntary quarantine, including 70 doctors. The US Centers for Disease Control has recorded 62 cases of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS) in the United States. "What we know about respiratory viruses suggests that the potential for infecting a large number of people is very great," CDC director Dr. Julie Gerberding said in a telephone press conference Saturday. "We may be at the very early stages of what could be a larger problem," she said. "The pattern of transmission in Hong Kong is alarming because we have several hospitals that are infected and so many workers have been exposed," she said. "There is multiplied effect."

Black Blade: This is quite contagious. It appears to be spreading like wildfire. Speaking of movies this is like a page out of Stephen King's "The Stand". This could be bigger than "La Grippe" or Spanish Flu which lasted from 1914 to 1918 and killed 9 million in those four years. The influenza pandemic claimed more victims in the USA than all of their armed conflicts of the 20th century and America was one of the least devastated countries on the planet with approximately 850,000 deaths from 20,000,000 cases. The cause of this disease is unknown but is believed to have been a mutated swine virus from China, brought about by a rare genetic shift leading to the recombination of surface proteins which led to a lack of immunity among the world population. Maybe we are seeing something similar or worse. "Interesting Times"



mikal (03/30/03; 22:45:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 100598)
@Waverider
That very assumption regarding SARS and Iraq fears is the achilles heel of speculative traders. They will get burned again when equities reverse upwards on any positive SARS news or rumors. Likewise with Iraq.
I smell yet another setup soon, and bear markets in the last depression bounced repeatedly. But they stopped bouncing at some point.

Waverider (03/30/03; 22:32:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 100597)
Asian stocks plunge on war, virus fears
http://www.forbes.com/iraq/newswire/2003/03/30/rtr924333.html
Snip:
"The prospect of a drawn-out war in Iraq and worries about a deadly flu-like virus pummeled Asian stocks on Monday, while safe-haven investments gold and bonds gained. Asian stocks racked up their biggest losses since the Iraq war began 11 days ago, with major markets down 3 percent. Stocks in Hong Kong, Taiwan and Singapore fell sharply on fears a flu-like virus called Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS) would cause a tourism slump and dent corporate activity."

Waverider: Who the heck would ever have thought that a respiratory virus could affect the POG? The Asians fear an economic backlash from SARS as people avoid public places and cancel air travel. The news this weekend that SARS may live for many hours on inanimate objects has no doubt contributed to the drop in the Asian markets tonight (I'm not being facetious). Fascinating times indeed!!

Gandalf the White (03/30/03; 21:51:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 100596)
Looks as if SPOT is headed the opposite direction than US$ and Asia SM's
Sic 'um SPOT !
<;-)

sector (03/30/03; 21:26:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 100595)
@DanielD Late from a dinner out
No Mas
"…But the quest for freedom and our relative security are two pillars which lend support to our moral foundation which you fail to recognize. DD"

Iraqis, judging by their fierce resistance [Especially in Basra], want freedom from invaders and the fate of the Palestinians. Our security is best served by better managing our borders and being true ME mediators first, before we undertake invasions. Indeed this ill-thought thrust has all but guaranteed Iran's possession of nuclear material via a rapid acceleration of nuclear fuel reprocessing projects producing a net degradation in our overall security.

We could have tried this instead: Win the hearts and minds of Iraqis by bombing them with medical supplies, water purification facilities and lots of concealable pistols [To destabilize the regime. We could have even enclosed shooting targets with Saddam's profile].
++++++++++++++++++++
"…does your Dad agree with you? DD"

My father is buried 134 yards from the tomb of President John F. Kennedy, in Arlington National Cemetery.
++++++++++++++++++++
"GATA offers no alternative Monetary Theory to replace the foolishness of a fiat credit system."

GATA never claimed to offer Monetary Theories. Its name says its charter. The Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee. The removal of fraudulent manipulation is GATA's game, nothing more.

The best "Theories" to replace the fiat system are the ones described in the Constitution that have previously been subverted by modern government bankers.
++++++++++++++++++++
"…But for their [GATA's] single-minded and shallow "free market" approach. DD "

No comment other than shallow or deep, "Free" beats everything else.
++++++++++++++++++++
"…Continuation of the Korean War"

Hmmm. Still thinking about that one.


Cytek (03/30/03; 21:15:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 100594)
American Airlines Circles Possible Ch. 11

Reuters
Sunday March 30, 4:02 pm ET
By Jon Herskovitz

DALLAS (Reuters) - American Airline's slogan, "Something special in the air" could take on a new meaning this week as the world's largest carrier could very well be flying under bankruptcy protection.

Banking sources close to the matter told Reuters that American has ramped up discussions for $1.5 billion in debtor-in-possession financing and could file for bankruptcy protection as early as Monday.

Unions at American were scrambling over the weekend to reach concession deals with the carrier on the grounds that they were better off reaching agreements on pay and benefit cuts through talks with the airline rather than letting a bankruptcy judge possibly slash or revoke current contracts.

American, the world's largest carrier, was struggling prior to the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks on the United States. A difficult situation turned into a financial crises after the attacks, due to the sharp drop in air travel.

Although it has tried to cuts costs, banking sources have said the carrier, a division of AMR Corp. (NYSE:AMR - News), cannot easily recover from a drop in air travel bookings brought about by the war in Iraq. If it does file for bankruptcy, it will be the largest carrier ever to seek Chapter 11 protection and the first major U.S. corporate casualty of the war in Iraq.

Cytek- I believe Sector said AMR would go chap11 a few weeks ago, once the war started. I like the way Reuters puts it, "Something special in the air" could take on a new meaning this week. What are all those laid off pilots going to do? Especially without those hefty salary's.




Waverider (03/30/03; 21:02:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 100593)
Puplava: The Golden Bull
http://www.financialsense.com/stormwatch/update.htm
[aka: MOAB...the Mother Of All Bulls]
Snip:

"In summary, gold and precious metals are now in the early stages of anew bull market. This is evident by the charts up above. This new bull market will go through corrective stages and periodic pullbacks. These periods should be used as opportunities to add to your holdings. As the charts of Homestake Mining during the Great Depression and the commodity bull market of the 70's indicate, bull markets in "things" can last a long time. Please take time to review these historical charts. Ponder them. Once you reflect long on the picture they tell, I believe you will come to the same conclusion as I have. You only need to make a few investment decisions in your lifetime. If you can discover a new trend and get on board that trend early and then ride that trend until it ends, that is how real fortunes are made."

Waverider: Another great read from Puplava including the basics of market cycles, Gold's current market cycle, recognizing the primary trend, the new bull market in metals, and the establishment's bias against metals.

Black Blade (03/30/03; 20:59:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 100592)
Blow Out In Asia!
http://quote.yahoo.com/m2?u

Asian markets are thoroughly thrashed tonight. The Hang Seng, Nikkei, and Taiwan Weighted are just getting creamed. Looks like Japan's "end of quarter" results are not shaping up very well. The end of unlimited insurance on savings accounts supposedly ends on Tuesday. It is getting "Interesting".

- Black Blade

Clink! (03/30/03; 20:35:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 100591)
Time for the next spike ?
Gold is North of 334 as I type. This is all very pleasant (although it might signal the point for the next bashing as twice last week). But something which I haven't heard any comment about is that both the HUI and the XAU were both up almost 8% on Friday. I repeat *** 8% ***. One or two stocks can have a little volatility, but both the major indices strikes me as being significant. Over at the cafe, the comment was not much more than "that's nice". Anyone here care to comment ? Have TPTB decided that it's time to press the "UP" button on the elevator again and all the shorts are covering ?

Clink! (03/30/03; 20:25:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 100590)
Mikal !
And I thought *I* like alliteration !!!

timbervision (03/30/03; 20:22:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 100589)
Belgian
I am slowly but surely becoming indebted to you for your shared knowledge and insights. Lucky for me, its a feel good debt.

I would like to ask you a follow-up question. I'm sure the answer may be implied in your reply or perhaps you covered it earlier.

Often the cynics of the EURO say that the European union simply wants the EURO so they can do to the world what the US dollar has been doing - charging the world (mostly the 3rd world) tribute for the privalege of using the U.S.dollar as its reserve currency. My question is this. Is the EURO more world (3rd world) friendly? Would we, for examlpe, we see a narrowing of the difference in labour values between countries with the gold related EURO? Under a EURO/gold world, would it be more difficult for the current situation to continue, where labour in China is 20 cents per hour compared to $10/hour in the US? Does "free gold" and the EURO do something to narrow the differences in the value of labour around the world?

Thank you,


Clink! (03/30/03; 20:19:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 100588)
@ steady
You said :-

"The Islamic Dinar is a specific weight of 22k gold (917.) equivalent to 4.25 grams.

The Islamic Dirham is a specific weight of pure silver equivalent to 3.0 grams.

Umar Ibn al-Khattab established the known standard relationship between them based on their weights: "7 dinars
must be equivalent to 10 dirhams."

Forgive my befuddled mind, but doesn't that make 29.75g of gold equate to 30g of silver ? (Of course, it might just be that sneaky cheese-seeking Beaujolais which is confusing me...)

To continue the point, does anyone else see the potential, uhmm, "difficulties" raised by not only having a fixed ratio between the two metals, but to have it defined as such in a religious context ?


mikal (03/30/03; 20:18:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 100587)
P's of AU
The peace of gold
Will not be sold,
If you will hold
What here is told:

Portable possession protects people's plans,
Providing palatable nuggets in pans.

Perennial prosperity, private and precious,
Passes to progeny of gold bugs- infectious.

Preserving possessions proceeding from pain.
Partitioning true wealth from ill-gotten gain.

Pretending not to posed, proud fraternity,
Pulsing from priceless stellar paternity.

Portioned for production of electronic precision,
Propels and empowers progressive decision.

Prohibits pretense of pro-forma plunder,
Predicting patterns of providential thunder.


a nation of one (03/30/03; 20:11:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 100586)
housing here

Houston. The house next door still has not sold. The guy the seller hired to work on it is living in it and working on it for his rent. Originally put on the market about this time last year for $199,000 it was reduced to $175,000 late last summer and later was taken off the market for several months. Now it is back on the market again. I don't know what they are asking, but it is probably a good deal less. Around the corner, in the other direction, there is a fairly nice little bungalow that has been on the market for a long time also. Although I am not sure, it was probably worth somewhere around $250,000 in pre bubble-burst dollars. It has been reduced also. That is not consistent with the historical record for homes in this neighborhood, which is not far from the center of town, and where homes usually have sold very quickly. In the thirty three years that I have lived right here, I don't remember anybody ever having had a hard time selling a house around here, even if it wasn't in the best shape. Had lunch with a realtor in January. I asked him if there was a real estate bubble. He said no and changed the subject. Another real estate broker friend of mine in December, over an expensive and slightly tipsy supper, said that he thought the economy is 'too well controlled' for anything bad to happen to it. A real estate broker neighbor in the next block has stopped emailing me his weekly 'Real Estate Newsletter', in which he was always trying to peddle his wares. The last dozen or so of them that I saw kept having the same properties on them. The same houses for sale for months and months. The real estate broker who used to live next door, and who was not the same guy as any of these other people, died. He probably would have wanted it that way. He wasn't the type to hang around a declining market.

Gold Hill (03/30/03; 19:49:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 100585)
Steady- Dinar
Nice link. I'm assuming the 4.25 grams is of pure gold, which would make it around 10%bigger than the quarter eagle.
Cheers,
Gold Hill
P.S. 76 degrees in S.Oregon today

knotakare (03/30/03; 19:43:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 100584)
Get of the roulette wheel
and get youself some property that you can depend on when the inevitable crash in dollar land occurs. That would be gold coins and bullion.

If you think you will still be standing, after all the upcoming devaluations, bank regulations,taxation of real property, bankruptcy of the Treasury markets, I would say you are a gambler, not an investor.

The game now in the US is to convert your assets in the digital world, via taxation, confiscation, or re-regulation into the hands of the elite banks and the federal government. Your digital assets have already been leveraged to infinity, in the derivatives markets. When the derivatives implosion happens, be it overnight, or over 10 years as in Japan, what you will be left with is nothing.

It is this horror that now faces America, but panic has not set in yet.

I can not guess what outcomes the various geo-political forces are going to produce in the future. Therefore, I buy some gold. You can carry your life savings in a knapp sack. To me, that is "equal justice, under the law".

Operative (03/30/03; 19:43:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 100583)
For Those Watching the Gold/Oil Ratio
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=2473353
America shutting down the oil wells in Iraq. Says may be months before oil begins to flow again. Hmmm...wonder if Japan got wind of this and one of reasons why the 200+ drop tonight?

Boilermaker (03/30/03; 18:16:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 100582)
Nikkei Monday Blues
Nikkei down 200 after one hour. Their PPT needs to wake up and put on the fix. Gold up about $2. Might be fun today.


silvercollector (03/30/03; 17:50:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 100581)
Little pop in Aussieland
...they don't like the apparent 'stall'.

steady (03/30/03; 17:38:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 100580)
what the dirham and dinar look like
http://www.islamicmint.com/islamicdinar/whatrthey.html
nice pictures of them !

Aristotle (03/30/03; 17:37:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 100579)
Steady there, steady: "...it's money cause i can trade it..."
You can trade baseball cards, too, but that doesn't make them money. Knowwhattimean?

Money is a very hard concept to grasp. Property is easy to grasp. (Figuratively and literally.) You can own property. Nobody "owns" money.

The distinction is an important one, and ti continues to be a huge roadblock that stands between many folks and financial wellbeing.

Belgian, your long post was a cool drink of water on a hot day. (Or a hot cup of cider on a cold day!)

Gold. Get you some. --- Aristotle

steady (03/30/03; 17:27:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 100577)
gold as money property. didnt aristotle ask this question
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_02/tlaga011902.html
gold is both money and property at the same time. its property because u own it, its money cause i can trade it, but its deeper than that, it being owned by you means that you in essecne produce what earned it. you intellectual or physical capacity earns it. it is thru ones individual efforts and understanding of what is money and property ( withot royalty/luxery tax-land ownership)that u can have gold as money and property at the same time.
feedback welcome!
hey R. powell u think they are ready for the discussion of the dirham yet? naw best wait till after the dinar is announced and then explain the concept of pricing gold in silver and silver in gold just like the old days.(GOLD STANDARD = FIAT IN DISGUISE In his occasional paper THE RETURN TO GOLD 1925, Cambridge University scholar, Donald E. Moggridge, tells us that it was Sir Isaac Newton, who, back in 1717, set the price of gold at 77 shillings 10 and 1/2 pence per standard ounce (22-carat, .9167 fine), a price that endured for two hundred years.

In reality, Sir Isaac, serving as Master of the Mint, recommended that the gold coin of the realm (Guinea) be valued at 20 shillings 8 pence (which corresponded with 76 shillings 7.6 pence per 22-carat ounce), but Parliament rejected his odd number and set the guinea at 21 shillings even (www.friesian.com/coins). This of course compelled Sir Isaac to increase his mint price of gold by 1 shilling 2.9 pence in order to make 89 guinea coins out of two troy pounds of 22-carat gold at Parliament's price. Thus it was Parliament, not Sir Isaac, who set the price of gold at 77s 10.5d, which was destined to preside over the rise and fall of an aberrant monetary system known as gold standard.

Pound Sterling, England's monetary unit, containing 20 shillings, with 12 pennies (pence) to each shilling, was obviously a misnomer. It has been over seven hundred years since the last time 240 pennies were made out of each troy pound of sterling silver (37/40 or .925 fine). From the times of Edward I on, English kings had been making more and more pennies out of the same troy pound of sterling silver. In times of Elizabeth I, one troy pound of sterling silver was already yielding 744 pennies, or 62 shillings. The silver content of one penny became so small, that the smallest coin made out of sterling silver was Threepence (1/4 shilling), whose weight was a bit short of the weight of the original silver penny Alfred the Great inherited from Charlemagne (slightly less than 2/3 of US silver dime). "One-Third Pound Sterling" would thus be more appropriate name for "Pound Sterling".
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_02/tlaga011902.html )
or this
According to Islamic Law...

The Islamic Dinar is a specific weight of 22k gold (917.) equivalent to 4.25 grams.

The Islamic Dirham is a specific weight of pure silver equivalent to 3.0 grams.

Umar Ibn al-Khattab established the known standard relationship between them based on their weights: "7 dinars must be equivalent to 10 dirhams."



Golden Bear (03/30/03; 17:19:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 100576)
Daniel Druff (msg#: 100568)
Snippit :

"GATA has for five years already well illuminated the market manipulation inherent in the current US coercive economic policies." sector [I agree as stated in my #100559, "The time has come for Bill Murphy and his followers to step aside. Their anti-Patriot position has put the final nail in the coffin of any effectiveness they might have achieved in educating the investing public as to the maniputation of the gold market. They are now greatly diminishing the legitimacy of gold as the natural economic barometer in our world." DD]

DD,

can you please elaborate in what way GATA is diminishing the legitimacy of gold as a natural economic barometer, as opposed to those who by intention distort the prices of a free market?

Thanks,

GB.



Golden Bear (03/30/03; 17:11:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 100575)
Belgian (msg#: 100564)
Thank you Belgian for your Euro-centric interpretations of events evolving in your sphere. News of the politico/economic machinations within Europe are not as prevalent in our neck of the woods, and your summaries are always welcomed.

Indeed, adding to your comments, Australia's Foreign Minister Downer stated today that the post war control of Iraq should be in the hands of the Coalition of the willing for an indefinite period of time, before being handed to the UN (heard on ABC radio- sorry no link). No reason was stated, but logic would dictate control of Iraqi oil assets and installation of a pro US government as good a reason as any.

Cheers.

Mr Gresham (03/30/03; 16:56:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 100574)
Thanks, Clink!
I suspected I was off, so thanks for getting me on track there. I know life is more than the movies, but sometimes they hit so close to home (and the coffee kicking in first thing in the A.M.) I just can't resist. (Also, that Classmates ad that popped up from IMDB, has that blonde I'm SURE is Sherry A--, first girl I ever kissed -- on a spin the bottle lucky streak -- e-mailed them once and they denied it -- but I'm not convinced!)

Anyone else finding life surrealistic lately?

Be gentle with each other out there -- we may just wake up and find we've kicked off the covers, and sleepwalked to the top edge of the stairs (or to the gun cabinet...)

R Powell (03/30/03; 15:58:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 100573)
Another welcome to Jenika
And a request to add to the wizard's request that you keep a sharp eye out for gold dinar information. My hope is that you will also add anything newsworthy about the silver dirham that will be accompanying that dinar.
TIA
Rich


Golden Bear (03/30/03; 15:54:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 100572)
sector (msg#: 100557)
Agreed, excellent exposition of Misesian thought and also comparative economic analysis of socialist/capitalist systems.

The promises given to the masses by politicians so as to win elections and wield power is the driving theme in our modern socialist world where the term capitalism has been distorted beyond any recognition. The great loser in this is the economy as Bill Buckler points out, prices for capital goods are so distorted that the true price of these goods cannot be clearly evaluated.

I see it all around me, the average person starting businesses with borrowed funds in ventures having considerable overcapacity already, and their idea of making a successful business is to undercut the competition as to gain market share. This is deflationary for profit margins, and at the end of the credit expansion leads to bankruptcies and the destruction of wealth.

Alas this is the Market's tool to purge excesses out of the system, no matter what any political administration may throw at the problem. Pain and suffering for many will ensue.

Your conversation with Ari regarding Gold as money/property has been enlightening (thanks Ari) and I sit on the fence at this stage regarding a personal view, as my personal history is limited in this context. The one aspect that is clear is that physical possession of Gold in one's portfolio is beyond dispute.

I watch with fascination the evolving economic and political moves on the chess board, The US has gambled on an aggressive gambit to stave off checkmate by the Euro and the oil barrons, and only time will reveal the effectiveness of such...

Thanks and Cheers,

GB.



Gandalf the White (03/30/03; 15:31:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 100571)
WELCOME Sir Jenika !
jenika (03/30/03; 07:56:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 100553)
gold dinar
===
There have been a few discussions about the new Gold Dinar and its use for trade settlement within Arabic and/or Muslim nation's transactions at the TABLEROUND within the last few moons. BUT, that type of information is hard to come-by in the Castle, and your input will be most WELCOME ! Don't be a STRANGER, now that you have dropped the LURKER status !
<;-)


Clink! (03/30/03; 15:31:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 100570)
@ Mr Gresham
http://us.imdb.com/Name?Harris,+Richard
All you ever wanted to know about anyone and anything in the movies - the Internet Movie DataBase ! He's actually credited ten times after the Gladiator movie including, of course, the two Harry Potter films.

C!
PS. Warning - this site is addictive !

CoBra(too) (03/30/03; 15:29:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 100569)
@Sector and CM
Thank you both for keeping my own wee perspective from falling off the proverbial cliff ...
Nothing to add - really - except it's Bill Buckler of "The Privateer" - a site, which comes close to our host's own beliefs ... as I presume ... and sorry for interfering ...

A vh(very humble) cb2

Daniel Druff (03/30/03; 15:04:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 100568)
sector
Your comments relate to my mgs #100559 which was removed by Admin...as well as your msg #100558

"Sean Corrigan, Bill Buckner, The Mises Institute Teachings, Michael Kosares
I'll stand with those views and with the US Constitution that they are based upon. That plan of government called for gold and silver as money." sector [This statement is welcome news as well as a step in the right direction. DD]



"GATA has for five years already well illuminated the market manipulation inherent in the current US coercive economic policies." sector [I agree as stated in my #100559, "The time has come for Bill Murphy and his followers to step aside. Their anti-Patriot position has put the final nail in the coffin of any effectiveness they might have achieved in educating the investing public as to the maniputation of the gold market. They are now greatly diminishing the legitimacy of gold as the natural economic barometer in our world." DD]

"In regards to the war. It is, to the educated eye, about economics. The World knows this and abhors it as I do." sector [You are welcome to your opinions; however, to state a "given" as some "neo-revelation" is insulting to the "educated eye". There has never been a war where money and/or real estate are not involved. But the quest for freedom and our relative security are two pillars which lend support to our moral foundation which you fail to recognize. DD]

"There is no one here with a more complete history of support for the US military. Reaching back to my grandfather, the naval architect, Skipper Clementz who selected the location for Mayport Naval Station to my late uncle, Admiral Henry Cutler, who served on the Naval War College as distinguished faculty, to my late father-in-law who taught the Late Marine General Joseph Fosse [America's #1 WWII ace] how to fly, to my late father who was awarded the Navy Cross for valor in an aircraft armed only with Springfield bolt-action rifles, in the skies above Pearl Harbor, to my own five years of service as a flight instructor training Philadelphia Area University cadets for duty in Viet Nam [4,000 hours command pilot time]." sector [Congratulations...does your Dad agree with you? DD]

"The precipitous descent of US economic and currency stature is not the result of pernicious, unpatriotic, free market proponents and cannot be laid at the feet of GATA who simply desires a return to un-coerced trade and honest money." sector [Does the following comment lay our current system's failing "at the feet of GATA"? I think not! Here: "GATA's manifesto includes their desire to promote 'a free market for gold' without so much as a whisper critizing the very real evils of The Federal Reserve System. GATA offers no alternative Monetary Theory to replace the foolishness of a fiat credit system. Their silence puts them in a position of lacking any semblance of moral legitimacy." DD]

"Indeed, vilifying those who desire market freedom, as you have done, leaves you with a conspicuously visible brand." sector [Please refer to my last comment and what does a "conspiculously visible brand" mean? My "vilifying" of GATA is for their ineffectiveness with Bill Murphy as their leader and primary spokesman, but for their single-minded and shallow "free market" approach. DD]

"The war is a mistake. An severe economic mistake as Bill Buckner's piece below so clearly reveals. The entire article must be read all twelve pages of it." sector [If you don't approve of this war, what will be your reaction to the continuation of The Korean War? DD]

"A simple exit from this mistake and a return to free markets is what GATA desires and has the nearly the entire World on its side." sector [Excuse me, but I really don't think GATA has taken an official position regarding the war. Its President, Bill Murphy certainly has...and that's the problem, i.e., Bill Murphy.

DD


Cometose (03/30/03; 14:51:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 100567)
Daniel Druff
I'm not aware of whether that Babylon exists ....however according to some historical records ....your approximation
of it's location is correct...Some say that Sadaam has built a replica

Cavan Man (03/30/03; 14:36:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 100566)
To Forum
My apology for getting my Irish up; fools have no solace. Regrets...CM

Cavan Man (03/30/03; 14:26:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 100565)
Hi sector
Had to peek out or self-imposed exile to say I knew there was something else I admired of you though could not put my finger on it. Thank you for your service to our country. Though I did not serve, I sincerely wish I had spent at least a couple of years in the armed services. I stand, a small guy and even smaller intellect (tiny) with those you mentioned who espouse honest money and true, free market principles. I am weary of emotional, right wing ideological fanatics who cannot think clearly enough to realize the political jihad they are on is ripping the fabric of this country asunder; never you mind the Constitution of the USA. Screw you rush limbaugh and your "ILK". The P & G diapers that come out of Cape Girardeau add more value to society than you and yours.

Belgian (03/30/03; 14:13:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 100564)
Imperial (dollar) Overstretch....
We will soon know if the French agree to let Duisenberg preside the ECB a bit longer. That means, they ( the French) agree on the ECB's (Bundesbank-like) present policies. In other words...let the dollar overstretch itself, much further, whilst Gold is contained as to not provide a hedge and a low POG provides that illusionary safety belt for the overstretching (dollar-inflation). Let the dollar-reserve enjoy some more use-value while suffering a declining exchange-value. Dollar-pegged exchange rates regimes will lead to more and deeper financial crisises in other parts of the world. More countries will be chained to the tyranny of growing dollar-debt and condemned to export slavery up until they start realising that an euro-alternative exists.

How many oil-producing countries are going to accept a POO lower than 20$, whilst the US can import, for domestic use, the cheapest and highest quality oil from occupied Iraq ?
The US oil-deals are such that part of the loot (percentage wise) will be in the drillers ownership. A real bonanza for the liberator and hefty profits for the willing liberated.
So the (probable) coming pricelevel for oil will become a new, additional, reason for widening the conflict.

A prolonged period of low POO will give the dollar-reserve, renewed (but illusionary) credibility, probably putting the euro under pressure and instigating some POG counterpressure ? Let's wait and see if POO comes down or not. And how will the UN manage the oil for food program and for how long ? It is here that we must see the French invisible hand. Today, Tony stated that he already agreed on the UN's role, together with his Spanish compangnon, Aznar, who is already politically death (lost all public support)!

etc...etc...

What I'm trying to say is that you should make your own "political" master move, today...with Gold in property.

sector (03/30/03; 13:43:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 100563)
@Daniel D Gold is the natural enemy of coersive government
Sean Corrigan, Bill Buckner, The Mises Institute Teachings, Michael Kosares
I'll stand with those views and with the US Constitution that they are based upon. That plan of government called for gold and silver as money.

GATA has for five years already well illuminated the market manipulation inherent in the current US coercive economic policies.

In regards to the war. It is, to the educated eye, about economics. The World knows this and abhors it as I do.

There is no one here with a more complete history of support for the US military. Reaching back to my grandfather, the naval architect, Skipper Clementz who selected the location for Mayport Naval Station to my late uncle, Admiral Henry Cutler, who served on the Naval War College as distinguished faculty, to my late father-in-law who taught the Late Marine General Joseph Fosse [America's #1 WWII ace] how to fly, to my late father who was awarded the Navy Cross for valor in an aircraft armed only with Springfield bolt-action rifles, in the skies above Pearl Harbor, to my own five years of service as a flight instructor training Philadelphia Area University cadets for duty in Viet Nam [4,000 hours command pilot time].

The precipitous descent of US economic and currency stature is not the result of pernicious, unpatriotic, free market proponents and cannot be laid at the feet of GATA who simply desires a return to un-coerced trade and honest money.

Indeed, vilifying those who desire market freedom, as you have done, leaves you with a conspicuously visible brand.

The war is a mistake. An severe economic mistake as Bill Buckner's piece below so clearly reveals. The entire article must be read all twelve pages of it.

A simple exit from this mistake and a return to free markets is what GATA desires and has the nearly the entire World on its side.




mikal (03/30/03; 13:32:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 100561)
@Sector
Re: "U.S. economic decline away from the free to the socialized [Read derivativized] market has fallen too far and the costs of gold manipulation[Central bank sales] and oil manipulation costs...too high..."
Well said. May I add to this?
While uneven, the costs of unnatural opposition to markets are, like the economic decline, worldwide. Today's period of flux will conclude at least two, not one financial cycles. Social and political cycles are also managed unnaturrally, BUT swing within their gravitational orbit.
So past cycles, and many social, war and election cycles, are like today's "derivatized, socialized market": 1) Offsetting liabilities 2) Layered risk 3) Lack of transparency and accountability 4) Unsustainability and parabolic or exponential activity

sector (03/30/03; 11:00:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 100557)
@ GoldenBear Buckner's Privateer -- Download the whole thing -- Pour a cup of tea
His Misean views are right on target
What is the real war motive? That one question just won't go away.

Buckner's [Mises] thought train:

Economic decline via socialized market policies leads to economic manipulation which, when manipulation costs rise too high, leads to war.

US economic decline away from the free to the socialized [Read derivativitized] market has fallen too far and the costs of gold manipulation [Central bank sales] and oil manipulation costs [Bribes to Saudis, et. al] have mushroomed too high [Past triggering levels], thus the war.

The two-week war...Er...maybe a bit longer...or maybe no victory at all must be a crushing weight on the Administration about now. The political war is lost. The timing of the war's start is interesting in so far as we waited and waited...still imagining a two-week war.

Whatever the rising hidden cost triggers for war were [Factoring a two-week war], they now must be going straight down the express elevator marked "abyss " about now.

The final denouement will not just be for the war, it will be for the US economy too. Plunge Protection Team…Social Security [Protection Team]...Congress...everything will crumble in slow motion. Not all that long after the failure of the FSU [Former Soviet Union].




Mr Gresham (03/30/03; 10:22:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 100556)
"I brought the sword -- nothing more"
More from us pesky Ciceroni (or is it Antonines?)...

Tempted by the 99 cent special at the video store, I picked up Gladiator on DVD last night. Don't think I'll have time to watch it all, but I did catch the 1-hour special add-on about the life of gladiators -- and the society that watched them as entertainment stars, for several hundred years. No comment.

Was this Richard Harris' last role, as Emperor Marcus Aurelius? His words from scene 5:

"Tell me again, Maximus. Why are we here?"

"For the glory of the Empire, sire."

"For 25 years, I have conquered, spilled blood, expanded the Empire -- and for what? I brought the sword -- nothing more."

"5000 of my men are out there in the freezing mud. 2000 of them will never leave this place. I will not believe they fought and died for nothing."

"And what would you believe?"

"They fought for you -- and for Rome."

"What IS Rome, Maximus? ... And yet, you have never been there. You have not seen what it has become. ...

"...or will I be the Emperor who gave Rome back her true self? There was once a dream that was Rome -- you could only whisper it. Anything more than a whisper, and it would vanish, it was so fragile. And I fear that it will not survive the winter...

"Maximus, let us whisper now together -- you and I. You have a son. Tell me about your home..."

Clint H (03/30/03; 09:46:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 100555)
Belgian (03/30/03; 08:52:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 100554)
WOW!!!! Thanks.

Belgian (03/30/03; 08:52:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 100554)
@ timbervision # 100463.....the euro back into the sea.....?
Checked the Northsea today....and saw no euro floating.
Yes, Pax Americana, succeeded in its intended uppercut to Euroland's fragile unity. But we are regrouping steadily and laying out new (expansion) timings. No, the euro and its concept will never be pushed into any sea ! A Euroland (EGKS) founding father (architect), M. Kohnstamm, spoke this week...and reminded us about the solid fundamentals on wich the euro-concept was build. The very wise Kohnstamm also stated that the US-administration is in the process of making its biggest mistake ever. This statement within an Anglo-American, friendly, country, the Netherlands.

Euroland is making big maneuvers at present. Chirac, a possible new *De Gaulle* in progress, is negociating with Tony (yes, Blair) about Iraq, its neigbours (Syria/Turkey/Iran/Saudi Arabia) and the M.E. as a whole ( the roadmap-? ). The UK will have to make a choice between UN-multilateralism or US-uniteralism. This will decide on the degree of postwar "chaos" in Iraq itself and the whole region. Don't forget we are talking about the world's second largest Iraqi oil reserves ! And a lot of other parties are watching if the winning, liberating, dollar (reserve) is going to take it all ! And it is here that the euro/dollar, currency-war, will rage.

The dollar-reserve has an extensive/ambitious, program. One aspect of this program is the "containment" of the expanding euro. This containment must be achieved with an all out war-logic and incredible "intervention" with the POG-containment as the most important one for us overhere.

Who is the present *owner* of the Iraqi oilreserves ? Who is going to determine, who will become the future owner of the oilreserves ?

The precursor of a possible Petro-euro is a growing amount of oil for euro. While world's oilprices remain in US$, some of it can be directly settled in euro or Petro-dollar revenues, exchanged later, for euro. The French/Belgian TotalFinaElf and Russian Lukoil, face exclusion from the oil bonanza (future exploration), when the US/UK chose to skip the UN. This will be a disaster for the dollar in the somewhat longer run !

The US wants the POO below the 20$ range, ASAP ! The present administration wants to be re-elected. Economic success is badly needed for this to happen. In the mean time the dollar-reserve, accelerates in piling up more ** DEBT **. A US/UK unilateralist approach will cost many fortunes to feed the war-logic.

Will Pax Americana (the dollar) negociate with Euroland/Russia (the euro) on a post Saddam, Middle East reconstruction and political reformation ? If not...there will be increasing chaos (organized subversion) in the whole ME and in other parts of the world (N. Korea/Kashmir/). A dollar-reserve negative and more sympathy for the emerging euro.

Let us not forget that beside currency struggles, trade wars are also a serious side effect of increasing Atlantic polarization. This would cause further detoriation of the global economies and is the main reason why "negociations" should resume and the euro continues to compete with the dollar.

But in the most optimistic outcome...the omnipotent dollar-reserve's reputation has been severely damaged (irreversably) ever more. The Chirac-effect (euro) is there and might be build on.

In the mean time, the continued "illusion" of a stable POG is good for the explosive dollar-debt "stability" !!!
The rapid expanding dollar-debt only lives on a system that requires the illusion of a stable goldprice. Does everyone see the evidence of this, right now !?
How must this feel when one is the owner of the world's most precious and vital crude-reserves in the process of being confiscated by the one who is printing the confetti that is paying for your oil at the confetti printer's price ? Is this reason enough to call another currency for help ? A currency that wants to be associated with Gold...a Free Gold-Market.

Sustained high/higher POO is "destabilizing" the dollar-debt ! And the whole money-system runs on the premisse of stable debt ! What if this fails , because of some Arabian Oil not wanting to play the old games anymore ?
The dollar-reserve has no other choice to contain, control and inflate more and more...and MORE.

Watch the UK, with or without Tony, trying to find an appropiate opportunity to re-connect to EMU over the deep divisions that the Iraqi war is causing !

If we fall into a much deeper recession...it will be a dollar-based recession and one that the world will repulse from by advancing the use of a more flexible currency...the euro without a war-logic. A currency unit that will match modern neds for fiat by marking the value of ALL DEBTS as they change !!! This by allowing a free market in Gold wealth to exist OUTSIDE THE MONEY CONCEPT !!!! (see Ari #100514 : Gold Poperty = Not a promise).
THE CAPTAINS OF OIL HAVE NOT SEEN ALL OF THIS IN A VACUUM !!! We are talking about "irreplaceble" oil-reserves against confetti.

France's role today in the Iraq/Iran/Syria turmoil, goes much further than TotalElfFina. Read some enlightening history about this (Shah of Iran/Khomeini, etc).

The possible coming trans atlantic negociations about Iraq/ME, are probably a next step in an orderly exit from dollar-use ? Read FOA's "The Wind Will Blow", again. These winds are blowing TODAY ! The economic architecture and power structures of the world are in the process of changing. The present Bush administration is not for ever !
Start already looking behind. Gold's "behavior" keeps us telling what is in store. The main Arabian Crude doesn't want "digital credits" anymore !

The dollarization of Kuwait is not a model that is applicable to the whole ME region and the world's islamic community (1,2 billion people) as a whole !!!

Forget about the * reinstitution * of a ridicule " arbitrary " price of Gold ! (goldcover/goldstandard/goldbacking etc)

Up until now, the dollar-reserve, controlled Arabian Oil, to a comfortable extend. Today, the dollar-reserve is in such trouble that it wants to "own" Arabian (and Caspian) oil. Euroland (the euro) doesn't like this and Russia, neither. Soon we will hear what the Chinese and Indians think about this. For how long will the euro-system pump more dollar based paper gold sales into the system, rather than actual physical goldsales ? Watch the ongoing UN negociations and Tony's diplomacy stunts.

As some kind of conclusion, Sir timbervision...the euro exists and wan't go away. Keep on watching the €/$ exchange rate very closely and conclude if the euro is making progress, or not, as to bring us closer to Free Gold. Japan has already locked itself into the dollar-box. Don't pay too much attention to their currency interventions (dollar-supportive). Japanese total debt is *** 160 % *** of GDP !!!
How can they possibly "stabilize" such an amount of debt, for ever ?

In my personal opinion, I do see the originally quoted, clash
of civilizations, evolving...with more dramatic consequences as previously thought. Another step in global tensio-building has been made. This will increase when Saddam is gone, rather than appease. A lot of bystanders will be lured into the conflict and aggravating it. Dollar debt will rise at a faster ritme. Read and watch the chart at Bob Landis's occasional posting (Golden Sextant) :" The Once and Future Money.



jenika (03/30/03; 07:56:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 100553)
gold dinar
My first posting to this forum after watching for 6 months. I managed to get to gold as I was doing my own research on political events I didnt understand. I came to the conclusion that it was a three way tug of war on currency. However, there is hardly a posting on here about the gold dinar which is being introduced mid 2003.
So, we have the US$-Euro-Gold dinar, what affect will the dinar have on the dollar?
Iam beginning to think that even if the coalition of the willing rid Iraq of Saddam Hussien, the dollar is still going to dive. Between the dinar and the euro, will there be anything left for the dollar?





Golden Bear (3/30/03; 02:35:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 100552)
From The Privateer (reproduced with permission)
http://www.the-privateer.com
"...The one context in which the war against Iraq IS necessary, as seen from the perspective of the powers that be inside the US, is from the economic/financial perspective. The imbalances inside the US economy brought about by the (most recent) decade of rampant credit expansion have grown to the point where the whole structure is about to topple over. In 1991, US federal government deficits peaked and began to decline. The borrowing necessary to maintain a credit expansion shifted from the "public" to the "private" sphere. That borrowing orgy has left the US with $US 500 Billion plus annual trade deficits, a population with no savings, and an employment rate in US goods producing industries at its lowest level since the end of WW II nearly 60 years ago.

Private borrowers are tapped out. The bankruptcy rate is setting records. Over the third WEEK of March, US bankruptcies totalled over 35,000, up 9% over the same week in 2002. ANY rise in US interest rates would see this orgy of bankruptcy grow to catastrophic proportions. There is no more impetus left from the US private sector. So - re-enter the US "public sector". The Federal government plunge into renewed "deficit spending" has been the most dramatic in US history. It is THIS, above all other factors, which has led to the US Dollar dive over the past year. And it is this, above all other factors, which made a WAR a necessity - for the powers that be. A war was necessary as an excuse for
this giant ramp up in borrowing. A war was equally necessary as a distraction from the effects of that
borrowing..."


GB: Sums it up nicely...



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