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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 4/30/2000
All times are U.S. Mountain Time
(Yesterday's Discussion.)
Chris Powell
(4/30/2000; 22:25:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 29658)
An alert to the gold world
http://www.egroups.com/message/gata/442?
An alert to the gold world about how gold's
price has been manipulated and what GATA
hopes to do about it soon. In two parts.
http://www.egroups.com/message/gata/442?
http://www.egroups.com/message/gata/443?
To subscribe to GATA's dispatches by email
and get them immediately so you don't have
to go look for them, send an email to:
gata-subscribe@eGroups.com
Peter Asher
(4/30/2000; 21:09:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 29657)
The buyers of last resort of an inflated stock market.
XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX SUNDAY APRIL 308 2000 20:40:00 ET XXXXX
BUSH TO PUSH FOR PRIVATE SOCIAL SECURITY ACCOUNTS!
Gov. George W. Bush plans to push soon for a fundamental overhaul of Social
Security, the NEW YORK TIMES reports on Monday Page Ones.
TIMES scribe Richardson reports details from Bush aides including the most
significant change: individual investment accounts within Social Security.
Richardson writes:
"Bush believes that the accounts, which would allow workers to invest a
portion of their Social Security payroll taxes in the stock and bond
markets, are an essential component of any plan to ensure the retirement
system's long-term viability, his advisers said."
Bushies expect Al Gore will denounce the plan because it fails to ensure a
guaranteed benefit to seniors, and will likely call his plan "risky".
"Bush plans to give a major speech on Social Security sometime in May, and
to press the issue from then on, his aides said. He will not offer a
detailed plan, but rather will commit himself to a set of principles that he
would use as the basis for bipartisan negotiations if he was elected
president."
Sancho
(4/30/2000; 20:56:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 29656)
$5 Indian
Re: Your message 29645 with respect to Euro-problems and other problems----you do indeed have a nice way with words. It may be a bit early to tell the playing out of the Euro,foresight taking a little more of a gift than hindsight, but when I was in various countries in Europe I noticed the citizenry of different countries were not particularly fond of each other. If they are somewhat emotional on each other in general you can imagine the item of money thrown into the cauldron.
SteveH
(4/30/2000; 20:31:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 29655)
Peter and Concealment
Peter,
Concealed weapons is considered by most States, except Vermont, to be an act a criminal would do. It therefore is controlled by statute to varying degrees under the right of the state to reasonable police power. In other words, the RKBA (right to keep and bear arms) is not an unlimited right. Put another way, where the state and the RKBA meet shifts state to state. Thirty-one states currently have 'shall-issue' CCW (carring a concealed weapon) laws: meaning, if you have a clean background and aren't crazy, and are not under a court restraining order, you shall-be granted a permit or license, if you ask for it. This is the state determing the holder of the license will not be likely to misuse or abuse the RKBA in a concealed manner (a reasonable use of police power). Where some states go wrong like Ohio and Michigan, for example, is they either don't have a means for a citizen to get a license (Ohio) or they have an ambigous law (MI) that gives the board virtually unlimited and unreasonable police power to prevent a citizen who would qualify in one of the 31 'shall-issue' states for a license from getting a license.
In a state where there is no procedure and the law prohibits or makes it a felony to carry a concealed weapon (Ohio), this is clearly a violation of the natural right to bear arms, for the state has essentially infringed the RKBA while travelling in a car, while at work, and while in public. Since we learned that the Second Amendment only guarantees the RKBA shall not be infringed by Congress, the Buckeye citizen must rely on the US v Cruikshank case to show that the RKBA is a natural right that passes through to the state via the Ninth Amendment to the US Constitution, but not the 14th Amendment: the enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. I would think that a citizen of Ohio would have to write the Attorney General or Governor of the state requesting a special dispensation based on the Ohio Constitution, which does mention arms, and the natural RKBA and the Ninth Amendment. If they are refused, I would think that they could then file an appeal with a State or Federal court to remand the decision back to the applicant.
In a state like MI where the boards attempt to legislate or prevent applicants from getting general CCW licenses for political purposes, where only retired police officers and judges get permits and this varies by county, the citizen, must show their background is clean, the meet the age and residency requirements, they are a moral character, and that their reason is self-defense. Since the boards real purpose is to apply reasonable police power to prevent felons, crazy people, and those under court restraining orders from obtaining a CCW license, all other citizens who do not fall under those categories and use self-defense as a reason for applying for the license, should be granted the license because the State no longer can show a denial to be reasonable. A mere administrative board can not contravene a Constitutional guarantee (the MI Constitution is much stronger on the RKBA for self-defense than Ohio's and than the Second Amendment) assuming that all other criteria of the law have been met.
In summary, the right to carry a concealed weapon is not an unlimited right, it can be controlled by the State in a reasonable matter. Ohio isn't reasonable because they don't allow for a citizen to carry a concealed weapon. Michigan is unreasonable because each County's gun board varies by policy and the law is unequally applied. Further, Michigan counties predominately deny all citizens except retired police officers thereby creating a quasi-suspect class of citizens (retired police officers) who are not in fact any different than you or I.
Finally, most of the CCW laws were instituted to discriminate against minorities. This is well documented. Today, it is ironic that these laws now discriminate equally. They have become institutionalized licensing bureaus for retired law-enforcement officers, which was never the intent of the law. The only State that does it right is Vermont, where anybody can carry a concealed weapon, even you and I.
Carrying a concealed weapon, as I understand it was never a problem until the 1920's, then the bulk of restricted gun laws started. Before that, the RKBA was virtually unlimited.
Peter Asher
(4/30/2000; 19:47:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 29654)
Harley Davidson (4/30/2000; 18:51:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 29649)
Sounds plausible. We notified the card company where this could have occurred. Malibu would be a real juicy location for something that sophisticated to pay off.
Re cell phones: That's called cloning! We had that happen in June of ‘98, also in L.A., not surprisingly. We were on the freeway a lot between Victorville and Hollywood and one day were informed that this had occurred. I gather a sudden change in pattern or frequency of long distance calls triggers a warning. We had to wait without service for several days while they put a new number into play. They said to avoid leaving the phone on when you aren't expecting any one to call in. Apparently just being turned on and able to receive allows this to be done.
TheStranger
(4/30/2000; 19:19:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 29653)
Cavan Man
You probably were thinking, "he asks me to expound and then he vanishes, sheeesh!"
Sorry about the delay.
I once heard socialism compared to a large dinner group which has been told that the restaurant bill will be divided up evenly. As soon as one person orders up the lobster, everybody else changes their order to lobster. Why? Because they figure, "If I have to pay for his lobster, by golly, he's going to have to pay for mine." For this reason, the bill keeps getting bigger. And, in this way, sooner or later, all socialist societies wind up putting a strain on their productive capacity as well as raising the tax burden of their citizens.
I don't know much about Ireland, but I know Canadians (sorry guys) and Brits contend with health care regimes, for example, which would be unacceptable to Americans. People wait for long periods of time to have simple surgeries that are done just about right now in the United States.
College in the U.S., on the other hand, is as close to pure socialism as you can get. One of my daughters goes to Bryn Mawr. Because I saved for 20 years, I pay $32,000/year to send her there. The average Bryn Mawr student pays half that and many pay much less. This is because tuition is charged not according to scholastic achievement but according to how well (or how poorly) a student's parents prepared in advance. Had I used my daughter's college funds to buy a cabin somewhere in the mountains, I could have qualified her for much lower tuition. In other words, I could have ordered the lobster. I didn't because I brought her into the world and I am going to provide for her. I wish everybody felt that way. If they did, I daresay we would have fewer SUVs on the road.
Glad to see you have read Hayek. I wish everybody would. His "Road To Serfdom" sits on my desk.
Canuck
(4/30/2000; 19:13:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 29652)
(No Subject)
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_00/joubert050100.html
Sorry, link in wrong spot
Canuck
(4/30/2000; 19:11:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 29651)
Manipulation and April 4th written all over it !!
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_00/joubert050100.html
YGM
(4/30/2000; 19:06:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 29650)
Soros Quote.....
From Soros Friday letter to shareholders.....
"quote"..... "Maybe I don't understand the market," he said. "I am anxious to reduce my market exposure and be more conservative. "George Soros"
*****Sounds to me like Soros hasn't finished unloading paper YET! Could be sad news for the street, come tommorrow. Many felt old George was already out.....note his statement was made Friday......YGM
BTW---this info came from the May 1st Sydney Morning Herald Business section.
Harley Davidson
(4/30/2000; 18:51:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 29649)
Sir Peter,
As I think on this, it seems more likely that the card readers encode/encrypt info from the strip and then send it thus preventing my previous scenario. If so, it would follow that the data on the strip was copied directly off your card i.e a card reader/manufacturer...very bold!!!
On a similar note, I was told by my cell phone people that cell phone fraud occurs by people sitting in their car near exit ramps from major highways like toll roads and are able to use special equipment to intercept calls from cell phones (including the cell phone numbers) from people who place calls to get directions, or contact people as they are near their destination, etc. Then the "listeners" program a cell phone with the intercepted number and sell the phone which offers the buyer unlimited free calls...for a while.
Peter Asher
(4/30/2000; 18:20:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 29648)
SteveH, thanks for the treatise.
It seems to me that the only weak spot in the whole 2nd Amendment aspect of the gun control debate is in the area of *concealing* the weapon'
That boils down to the size of militia weapons at time the Amendment was written and the size of the coats customarily worn then.
Peter Asher
(4/30/2000; 18:13:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 29647)
Harley Davidson (4/30/2000; 14:22:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 29643)
Thanks for the response. The card people say one needs the magnetic strip to make a copy, but maybe that data can be pulled out of the ether too? But, they say even then, their system should catch the counterfeits via a certain technological coding trick. The current mystery is why that is coming up green also. (Unless your theory could be a method for the "Perfect" copy) According to them ONLY a valid card will register this one digit correctly. As to when someone could have made a copy, we went over our charge records and found the one incidence where the card was out of sight for a few minutes. It was in a restaurant where they take it away on the tray and bring it back again. That was in the area of this occurrence. Happened to be when I took the young'n to Xmas dinner at the Malibu Inn. As to gas station receipts. These days those only have 4 of the digits on them and one normally (?) takes them home to the bookkeeper so one knows what the balance is. As to how many people throw them away?? I suppose that this society has a 50/60% as#&%^ factor at this point in time
SteveH
(4/30/2000; 15:37:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 29646)
Peter, here may be your answer (US v Cruikshank)
repost:
...We have in our political system a government of the United States and a government of each of the several States. Each one of these governments is distinct from the others, and each has citizens of its own who owe it allegiance, and whose rights, within its jurisdiction, it must protect. The same person may be at the same time a citizen of the United States and a citizen of a State, but his rights of citizenship under one of these governments will be different from those he has under the other. Slaughter- House Cases, 16 Wall. 74.
Citizens are the members of the political community to which they belong. They are the people who compose the community, and who, in their associated capacity, have established or submitted themselves to the dominion of a government for the promotion of their general welfare and the protection of their individual as well as their collective rights. In the formation of a government, the people may confer upon it such powers as they choose. The government, when so formed, may, and when called upon should, exercise all the powers it has for the protection of the rights of its citizens and the people within its jurisdiction; but it can exercise no other. The duty of a government to afford protection is limited always by the power it possesses for that purpose.
Experience made the fact known to the people of the United States that they required a national government for national purposes. The separate governments of the separate States, bound together by the articles of confederation alone, were not sufficient for the promotion of the general welfare of the people in respect to foreign nations, or for their complete protection as citizens of the confederated States. For this reason, the people of the United States, 'in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquillity, provide for [92 U.S. 542, 550] the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty' to themselves and their posterity (Const. Preamble), ordained and established the government of the United States, and defined its powers by a constitution, which they adopted as its fundamental law, and made its rule of action.
The government thus established and defined is to some extent a government of the States in their political capacity. It is also, for certain purposes, a government of the pepole. Its powers are limited in number, but not in degree. Within the scope of its powers, as enumerated and defined, it is supreme and above the States; but beyond, it has no existence. It was erected for special purposes, and endowed with all the powers necessary for its own preservation and the accomplishment of the ends its people had in view. It can neither grant nor secure to its citizens any right or privilege not expressly or by implication placed under its jurisdiction.
The people of the United States resident within any State are subject to two governments: one State, and the other National; but there need be no conflict between the two. The powers which one possesses, the other does not. They are established for different purposes, and have separate jurisdictions. Together they make one whole, and furnish the people of the United States with a complete government, ample for the protection of all their rights at home and abroad. True, it may sometimes happen that a person is amenable to both jurisdictions for one and the same act. Thus, if a marshal of the United States is unlawfully resisted while executing the process of the courts within a State, and the resistance is accompanied by an assault on the officer, the sovereignty of the United States is violated by the resistance, and that of the State by the breach of peace, in the assault. So, too, if one passes counterfeited coin of the United States within a State, it may be an offence against the United States and the State: the United States, because it discredits the coin; and the State, because of the fraud upon him to whom it is passed. This does not, however, necessarily imply that the two governments possess powers in common, or bring them into conflict with each other. It is the natural consequence of a citizenship [92 U.S. 542, 551] which owes allegiance to two sovereignties, and claims protection from both. The citizen cannot complain, because he has voluntarily submitted himself to such a form of government. He owes allegiance to the two departments, so to speak, and within their respective spheres must pay the penalties which each exacts for disobedience to its laws. In return, he can demand protection from each within its own jurisdiction.
The government of the United States is one of delegated powers alone. Its authority is defined and limited by the Constitution. All powers not granted to it by that instrument are reserved to the States or the people. No rights can be acquired under the constitution or laws of the United States, except such as the government of the United States has the authority to grant or secure. All that cannot be so granted or secured are left under the protection of the States.
We now proceed to an examination of the indictment, to ascertain whether the several rights, which it is alleged the defendants intended to interfere with, are such as had been in law and in fact granted or secured by the constitution or laws of the United States.
The first and ninth counts state the intent of the defendants to have been to hinder and prevent the citizens named in the free exercise and enjoyment of their 'lawful right and privilege to peaceably assemble together with each other and with other citizens of the United States for a peaceful and lawful purpose.' The right of the people peaceably to assemble for lawful purposes existed long before the adoption of the Constitution of the United States. In fact, it is, and always has been, one of the attributes of citizenship under a free government. It 'derives its source,' to use the language of Chief Justice Marshall, in Gibbons v. Ogden, 9 Wheat. 211, 'from those laws whose authority is acknowledged by civilized man throughout the world.' It is found wherever civilization exists. It was not, therefore, a right granted to the people by the Constitution. The government of the United States when established found it in existence, with the obligation on the part of the States to afford it protection. As no direct power over it was granted to Congress, it remains, according to the ruling in Gibbons v. Ogden, id. 203, subject to State jurisdiction. [92 U.S. 542, 552] Only such existing rights were committed by the people to the protection of Congress as came within the general scope of the authority granted to the national government.
The first amendment to the Constitution prohibits Congress from abridging 'the right of the people to assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.' This, like the other amendments proposed and adopted at the same time, was not intended to limit the powers of the State governments in respect to their own citizens, but to operate upon the National government alone. Barron v. The City of Baltimore, 7 Pet. 250; Lessee of Livingston v. Moore, id. 551; Fox v. Ohio, 5 How. 434; Smith v. Maryland, 18 id. 76; Withers v. Buckley, 20 id. 90; Pervear v. The Commonwealth, 5 Wall. 479; Twitchell v. The Commonwealth, 7 id. 321; Edwards v. Elliott, 21 id. 557. It is now too late to question the correctness of this construction. As was said by the late Chief Justice, in Twitchell v. The Commonwealth, 7 Wall. 325, 'the scope and application of these amendments are no longer subjects of discussion here.' They left the authority of the States just where they found it, and added nothing to the already existing powers of the United States.
The particular amendment now under consideration assumes the existence of the right of the people to assemble for lawful purposes, and protects it against encroachment by Congress. The right was not created by the amendment; neither was its continuance guaranteed, except as against congressional interference. For their protection in its enjoyment, therefore, the people must look to the States. The power for that purpose was originally placed there, and it has never been surrendered to the United States.
The right of the people peaceably to assemble for the purpose of petitioning Congress for a redress of grievances, or for any thing else connected with the powers or the duties of the national government, is an attribute of national citizenship, and, as such, under the protection of, and guaranteed by, the United States. The very idea of a government, republican in form, implies a right on the part of its citizens to meet peaceably for consultation in respect to public affairs and to petition for a redress of grievances. If it had been alleged in [92 U.S. 542, 553] these counts that the object of the defendants was to prevent a meeting for such a purpose, the case would have been within the statute, and within the scope of the sovereignty of the United States. Such, however, is not the case. The offence, as stated in the indictment, will be made out, if it be shown that the object of the conspiracy was to prevent a meeting for any lawful purpose whatever.
The second and tenth counts are equally defective. The right there specified is that of 'bearing arms for a lawful purpose.' This is not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence. The second amendment declares that it shall not be infringed; but this, as has been seen, means no more than that it shall not be infringed by Congress. This is one of the amendments that has no other effect than to restrict the powers of the national government, leaving the people to look for their protection against any violation by their fellow-citizens of the rights it recognizes, to what is called, in The City of New York v. Miln, 11 Pet. 139, the 'powers which relate to merely municipal legislation, or what was, perhaps, more properly called internal police,' 'not surrendered or restrained' by the Constituton of the United States.
The third and eleventh counts are even more objectionable. They charge the intent to have been to deprive the citizens named, they being in Louisiana, 'of their respective several lives and liberty of person without due process of law.' This is nothing else than alleging a conspiracy to falsely imprison or murder citizens of the United States, being within the territorial jurisdiction of the State of Louisiana. The rights of life and personal liberty are natural rights of man. 'To secure these rights,' says the Declaration of Independence, 'governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.' The very highest duty of the States, when they entered into the Union under the Constitution, was to protect all persons within their boundaries in the enjoyment of these 'unalienable rights with which they were endowed by their Creator.' Sovereignty, for this purpose, rests alone with the States. It is no more the duty or within the power of the United States to punish for a conspiracy [92 U.S. 542, 554] to falsely imprison or murder within a State, than it would be to punish for false imprisonment or murder itself.
The fourteenth amendment prohibits a State from depriving any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; but this adds nothing to the rights of one citizen as against another. It simply furnishes an additional guaranty against any encroachment by the States upon the fundamental rights which belong to every citizen as a member of society. As was said by Mr. Justice Johnson, in Bank of Columbia v. Okely, 4 Wheat. 244, it secures 'the individual from the arbitrary exercise of the powers of government, unrestrained by the established principles of private rights and distributive justice.' These counts in the indictment do not call for the exercise of any of the powers conferred by this provision in the amendment....
***
Comment: The Right to keep and bear arms can be infered, imo, to be a natural right that is not granted by the Constitution. It pre-dated it just as is stated above. You can see herein how most federal gun laws are probably unconstitutional because, the Second Amendment is clearly stated here to prevent Congress from infringing and from allowing to be infringed the right to keep and bear arms. That so many of our leaders ignore this is treasonous, imo. US v Miller, another Supreme court case infers that weapons must be shown to improve the efficiency of the Militia or preserve the Militia. I read this to mean that weapons in the hands of the Militia must be equal to those in hands of the US military (small arms) and our enemies. That would make any law banning assault weapons uncontitutional. Any law that prevents a member of the Militia (you and I) from preserving ourselves (self-defense) such as denying CCW permits for a lack of a sufficient reason, when that reason is self-defense, is not allowing the Militia to be preserved, imo. In other words, RKBA pre-dated the constitution, is only guaranteed by it not created by it. I believe most attorney's would agree that the 14th Amendment passes through to the state those rights created by the Constitition, not guaranteed by it. Therefore, by logic, a natural right to keep and bear arms for the preservation of a member of the Militia is equal to or stronger than a right only created by the Constitution. Oddly, it doesn't seem to work this way in the States when it comes to equal protection cases, citing the 14th Amendment.
It would seem the most logical argument would be that since the Second Amendment(and the rest of the individual rights) of the Bill of Rights guarantee natural natural rights, equal protection to citizens of the States applies also with or without the 14th Amendment. IMO. The significance of this is that the States need to not infringe on the RKBA. In the case of Maryland, this would apply and to Ohio as well who doesn't even have a CCW law and makes it illegal for Citizens to carry, except they say self-defense is an affirmative defense.
$5 Indian
(4/30/2000; 14:55:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 29645)
Wide Open
The value of the Euro is only a reflection of the faith in Europe getting together as a union. Its purchasing power is backed by faith in their union. If their is no need for a union of European nation states, then why have a common currency? The union of the US ocurred in 1865 and it was another money scam pulled on the South by the Northern industries who really wanted to free up cheap labor to fight Irish union attempts and who sold the Southern farmers fancy equiptment that made the slaves a burden and the profits from the farms all went to pay off the equiptment. Trade war led to a real war. What do you think is going on in Germany as they are forced to pay for a unification of the communist half while receiving no benefits from it except exported jobs like what happened to the US from Nafta. The union attempts have the northern European nations saying, "What for, we can't afford anymore". Germans have to be more than a little pissed off at the giveaway socialist welfare states that are taking industry with lower wages. Well I'm all over the page with my ideas here. I'll try not to introduce 50 new topics. Anyway, the Euro is Germany's form of food stamps for supporting the southern nations whose governments rob the people and spend and spend, as food stamps pass on as some second rate city currency. The falling Euro becomes like the wave that the surfers of the freemarket right wing can ride on. The collapse of the Euro is in the same faith crisis that Jimmy Carter squalked about, interest rates went to 20+%. The economy was choked as a fish gasping for breath on the bank. What happened next? New leadership was elected. Same thing will happen in Europe. The college system set to produce an educated elite has to be replaced with an opportunity system like in the US. They desperately need to retrain workers to become useful in the new high tech era. Deregulation means the wholesale mass retraining of thousands and millions of workers. No eliteist college system run by provincially minded snobs is going to allow that change to occur. So American industry moving into the high tech atmosphere will sap Europe of its best talent as they already sent their cash here to "make giant returns on" in a vote of no confidence in themselves. So European, first you send us all your complaints, then all your money,(while we in turn try to buy your real estate because it's worth alot), then as your economy sinks into recession with stagflation our corporations are making offers to your educated young to replenish our industries with. We're taking it all. Now come and lets trade in the markets. The US stock trading "game of financial weedout" is developing a league of traders who can out trade the big boys in any country anywhere. Give them access to your markets and you are going to see some serious losses by these pajama clad geniuses. The few who survive take it all home to the USA. We have the computer that designed the chip that built the computer that designed the part that fit into the robot that built the newer whatever that put the last one out of business. Companies are born and die and no one blinks an eye. I can still hear how the foreignors were laughing at our shabby dressed students. We have no culture and life here lacks spice but if you like to see the gerbel run real fast on the wheel, this is the place. The Euro is a German backed food stamp until the people realize that no nation can tax their way into prosperity. The bottom line has to be deregulate, retrain, retool, or relapse!
YGM
(4/30/2000; 14:37:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 29644)
ced_s.............RIGHT ON!
http://www.gata.org
GATA is still the only weapon we posess in the short term...
Now more than ever, we need to show renewed support and interest in what time will prove to be a "History Making" assault on all Bullion Manipulations.........I also am sending GATA further funding, which my wife calls living beyond my means......Better GATA than many of my other forays......The best (& the only) 3 oz of Gold I ever gave away was for this cause. (and the most satisfaction) .....Regards to you: ......YGM
Go GATA and GO Physical Gold.
Harley Davidson
(4/30/2000; 14:22:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 29643)
@ Sir Peter,
One possibility is that the information on the card was "intercepted" during transmission to the regional center. As I see it, there are two methods of transmission, telephone line and satellite dish. I would imagine that all of the data on the card is transmitted at the time of transaction so anyone enterprising enough to snoop either method of transmission may be able to collect enough data to manufacture a "genuine" copy.
Other than this, I wonder if other credit card info, in addition to the actual card number, might be printed on a receipt. How many people get gasoline and then throw their receipt in the nearby trash can?
Peter Asher
(4/30/2000; 14:06:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 29642)
Credit Card Scam Alert and Query
Just got a call from Chase Master Card Fraud Dept. Someone, yesterday in Burbank, a thousand miles away , presented a card that read on our account which fortunately was almost maxed out so his attempted $300 dollar K-mart purchase was denied. They were later able to get a tank of gas on the card at a self service pump but got nothing else before the attempted overdraft flagged the account and we were called.
The mystery and general concern is this: All our current cards on the account are in our possession. Expired cards are always cut up and are either burned or wind up in the county dump in a five can stinky mess of garbage bags that are thrown in a 40 yard container along with the current truckload of sheet-rock and insulation debris and, you can't make a counterfeit once the magnetic strip is cut However, the card system, which shows a certain numerical flag on counterfeit cards is showing a genuine card code number on what can only be a counterfeit item.
They say this has not happened before but in checking our records we discovered that this is the card I used in Southern California in Dec.& Jan. Therefore the only possibility is that the card was copied several months ago but just now surfaced as a counterfeit card with technology advanced enough to pass the current coding flags.
Comments or further information, anyone??
Knallgold
(4/30/2000; 13:50:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 29641)
BIZ,Henri
Thanks for refreshing this detail on the BIZ share.I had vaguely in mind this only paid up 25% thing but wasn't sure.
But I didn't know of the clause in the Gold confiscation,very interesting fact!
Did you see the price spike on the chart in late September,at the same time Gold spiked?
@Trail Guide,what about buying BIS shares??
ced_s
(4/30/2000; 12:58:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 29640)
GATA need our support
Hey guys and gals;
As you are well aware, GATA plans to visit the Den of Iniquity (Washington) in the second week of May. The major gold producers are not coming across with support for their trip. It will be costly, travel expenses for the entourage and lodging also.
Two weeks ago yesterday, I recieved my GATA print but have not opened it and I will not untill gold is FREE !! Many of us are depending on GATA to do just that.
I have a lot of money tied up in PM's and shares but the Manipulators have assaulted my sense of morality and ethics. It is pay back time, big time, exposure for the sleezy trash they really are.
GATA needs our support once again. Tomorrw, I plan to mail them another hundred dollars to help with those expenses. If all you visit the Forum for is theoretical discussions, I have no problem with that. If you really want to affect a
change in this manipulation, then show your colors. I know most people here have donated to GATA already, but they need us again. Show them we are committed to this cause.
Thanks
YGM
(4/30/2000; 12:50:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 29639)
Chossudovsky.........
Tuff spelling name.......
But easy reading......YGM.
YGM
(4/30/2000; 12:48:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 29638)
Michel Cossudovsky Site.......New papers etc., IMF and Wold Bank
http://www.emperors-clothes.com/index.htm
There are some new papers written By Michel (professor of Economics @ Ottawa University) author of "Financial Warfare" ......something for the academics here.....YGM.
pa kua
(4/30/2000; 12:30:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 29637)
Euro Endgame?
"The contrast between America's entrepreneurial embrace of the new economy and Europe's hunger to tax n'regulate helps explain investor aversion to the euro. At the same time, Europe's leaders may also prefer a weak euro as a means of getting them off the hook of tough policy decisions on structural reform.
As Aspinall put it last week: "This looks like a point of no return. A few weeks ago the euro seemed to have a chance to recover. That chance has gone. Now its very survival is at risk."
Europe is in serious denial about its problems. It is trapped in a political culture and rhetoric that refuse to countenance the seriousness of its crisis. It sees in every shortcoming and failure another excuse to step up the rhetoric and tighten the ratchet for yet more convergence: precisely the agenda for the Nice summit.
For the endgame of the euro zone establishment is not eonomic performance but political union, with power concentrated in the hands of the European Commission and government overall accounting for more than half of all European income. Markets sense this museum socialism and suspect that economic performance is, and will always be, a secondary goal. "
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000401090230472&rtmo=fqrVvals&atmo=99999999&pg=/et/00/4/30/ccbul130.html#go1
Gandalf the White
(4/30/2000; 12:08:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 29636)
Golden Calf -- The Hobbits would love to speak with you !
Golden Calf (4/30/2000; 2:16:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 29611)
Let's not give false impression....ey?
Just post your email.
Peace, Shalom, and caup-kun-carp
*****Gandalf-White@msn.com
and Sawasdee - Khop khun krup ALSO !
Henri
(4/30/2000; 12:05:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 29635)
Peter Asher-your attorney friend is behind the times
The AK-47 is hardly state-of-the-art although it is a thoughougly reliable unit. Rumours from Viet Nam said you could pull one up out of a rice paddy after a long period of submersion, load it and it would operate perfectly.
Peter Asher
(4/30/2000; 11:46:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 29634)
(No Subject)
Michael, Harley, SteveH, Black Blade and All
Great Sunday Morning Coming Down!
The clouds are dissipating and the sun is drying out the Oregon dampness and I just saw the first Turkey Buzzard of Spring.
This mornings "Service" had a superb sermon by Harley Davidson,and this parishioner received kind words of commendation from our illustrious host. Thank you, Michael.
Also Harley, I'm glad to hear that DU thingy comes with a set of directions, God knows where those shells would land if the boys that played with them were "winging it."
@ Steve, Harley, Black Blade, and the rest of the Forum Minute-Men:
The other night I was conversing with a new client who is a local building official and as I did not yet know he was a former trial attorney I was overly pontificating on the "Great Second Amendment Debate." I said that after repetitively reading the clause ""A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.'' I realized that this statement was not attempting to CREATE that right, it was referring to the right as one that ALREADY existed and gives the need for a militia as a reason for not "Impinging" on it.
He concurred with that observation and we then commiserated on how there could be endless debate on WHERE the referred to right came from. Like, is it therefore God given. Historical precedent, or what? However he gave a VERY interesting (Legal) opinion as to what the Amendment does give a right to. He said that "As a Militia would have to be armed with state-of-the-art weaponry, The ONLY weapon bearing right given by the 2nd Amendment is for individuals to carry an AK-47!
Henri
(4/30/2000; 10:44:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 29633)
Knallgold- BIZ
Thanks for the link.
It occurs to me that perhaps this is not a bad thing to "invest" in...the BIZ. As I understand it ownership of share is allowed to private individuals but without voting rights. They must be making some gold by handling all these international transfers (their fee). There is though the small detail that ownership implies a committment to pay up the remaining 75% of the gold value of the share as the current shares are only 25% paid-up. Perhaps this is the reason why there was a clause in the 1933 gold confiscation order that allowed gold held in trust for the BIS to be exempted from confiscation. That gold mentioned could be gold held in reserve pending a call for payment from the BIS. Since their unit of account is essentially gold then it would make sense to hold an amount of gold equivalent to the unpaid balance on however many shares of BIZ you held. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out who might have been holding these shares back in 1933. I expect in another confiscatory environment the same exemption would be allowed. Interesting also that the shares cannot be attached or confiscated under Swiss law and that they are not subject to witholding tax from any authority by international convention. Hmmm Wouldn't you know it my broker never heard of BIZ
USAGOLD
(4/30/2000; 10:42:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 29632)
Subjects or Citizens: Little Has Changed in the War Against Gold
Sir Peter of Asher, on last night's ruminations. . .
PA: "Certainly the 3 * years following Black October had driven a multitude of those who still had assets into storing them in gold. Obviously this value was not available to be"loaned" out to others to use for capitalization, and certainly not for expansion via fractionalization. So here you had a
full fledged depression in an expanding industrial age, requiring tool-up, inventories and payrolls to bring goods to market. This need for operating capital could only be achieved by liquefying the economy back into existence by way of credit."
USAG: Peter, you are hitting on why the financial and political establishments in the Anglo-American countries work relentlessly on keeping the people away from gold by whatever means they can find. One lesson I walked away with in re-reading the Hoppe discussion from 1970 is how little has changed in the War Against Gold. It is still the United States, Britain, Canada and Australia -- the countries most participants in this Forum hail from -- that nurtures an anti-gold posture. It is still continental Europe (and most of Asia) that holds a pro-gold position. Note that Britain had far more stringent gold laws than even the United States during the golden dark ages between 1933 and 1975. Also note the cryptic reference to DeGaulle who led the raid on the U.S. Treasury gold holdings in the 1960s ( a period during which over one-half the U.S. gold reserve -- from 22,000 to the present 8000 tons -- was transferred back to Europe in cheap dollars.) -- his (CDG's) recognition of the split between the "Anglo" world steeped in Keynsian logic and pushing to be released from the disciplines of gold and Continental Europe was shrewd. Indeed if you read the confiscation order carefully, you will note the reference to American citizens as "subjects." "Subjects" to whom? I've often wondered about that. I have exchanged thousands of words over the years with American attornies in my line of work and in friendship. I have yet to hear an American educated attorney refer to Americans as "subjects." I think "citizens" is the proper description. Makes you wonder who actually wrote the order. Of course, if you are going to take somebody's hard earned assets away from them, it is easier to do that when you see them as "subjects" not "citizens." "Citizens" have rights; "subjects" have the protection of and owe homage to the king. But back to the larger issues, after all those years of controlling the press (with respect to gold), the brokerage houses and banks (with respect to gold) and university faculties (with respect to gold), they have been unable to remove gold from the hearts and minds of the men. Y2K may have been a non-event in terms of its real effect on the economy and our daily lives, but it had a tremendous impact on policy makers who no doubt gulped sheepishly as they watched the public flock to gold in response to that threat -- real or imagined. The response is what was noted. As such it was reminder to all of us -- but particularly the Anglo-American financial establishment -- of the power of gold in the hearts and minds of men. So, Peter, your ruminations are indeed perceptive -- the needs you point to crucial in 1933 (quoted above), remain crucial in 2000. It is because of this view of gold, that the fears of confiscation might be justified and worth hedging against -- something with which we can help the investor here at Centennial Precious Metals. In a Mundellian world of international finance, where gold's role as a reserve is crucial, how do you deal with a $5.7 trillion dollar float? In my view, you put gold behind it. Where do you get the gold? Two places: The mines. The people. For the reasons mentioned by Hoppe relative to the legal precedents involved, the collector coin angle is one that should be pursued in earnest. It is a loophole that we believe is going to be retained. So we should take advantage of it. One does not want to get down to an actual international monetary crisis and find that the government has moved against bullion and that your gold has just become their gold.
Thank you for presence here, Peter. This table is a richer place because of it.
Harley Davidson
(4/30/2000; 10:38:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 29631)
@ Sir Henri,
Hey, thanks for the enlightenment! So the process is not unlike how and acetylene torch "cuts" through metal. You heat the target metal until glowing red hot, then a squeeze on the lever introduces a blast of pure oxygen which simply oxidizes the metal albeit very quickly. The things one can learn on this forum...!!!
Henri
(4/30/2000; 10:26:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 29630)
Sir Harley Davidson -Tank killer
Ah, yes there is a rather impressive set of impact parameters surrounding those beasties. Surely our meager chain mail and suits of mere iron could not withstand such a blow...footmounted tanks as we are.
But you have neglected some detail. The DU is encased as in the pure metallic form it is subject to spontaneous oxidation (combustion). When impact occurs the casing ruptures exposing the DU to atmospheric oxygen and initiating the combustion sequence. The intense heat of oxidation is what liquifies the DU and any metal it rests upon. Once it melts through the armor of the tank it is instantly exposed to much more Oxygen and the liquified metal literally explodes into the occuppied space and simultaneously spontaneously oxidizes the remainder of the charge. Not the kind of space I would like to occupy.
Harley Davidson
(4/30/2000; 10:17:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 29629)
@HI - HAT
You said, "What alarms me most is this. Mankinds whole History is a chronology of despotism and folly. What is different this time is genetic engineering that has reached a frightening scale. Cloning humans and other exotic gene-splicing experiments portends a level of arrogance against creation that could disturb forces we have no concept of."
In Genesis 3, v5. We are told that Satan said to Eve "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and YE SHALL BE AS GODS [my caps], knowing good and evil." This is the foundation of Satan's second lie; the immanence of God in man." (His first lie being to Eve in 3 v4. "Ye shall not surely die.")
I believe this is the explanation for why "Mankinds whole History is a chronology of despotism and folly" and I think it reasonable to expect to see more of the fruits of man's "arrogance against creation."
Leland
(4/30/2000; 9:59:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 29628)
"Private Money" --- I Love the Sound of These Words!
http://www.onlygold.com/whybuy.cfm
WHY BUY GOLD?
To own gold is to control part of one's own wealth, to personally take
possession of it. That part of your money converted to gold is no longer
tallied every year by institutions far away – instead, it becomes your
business and your business only. It drops off the radar screen as far as
others are concerned. Yet it is there for you, always. Yours to do with as
you wish. For whatever might happen in the future, gold assures that
money will always be at hand, to have, to give, to barter, to hide away, or
to simply hold as a wealth insurance policy.
In the U.S. today we tend to see gold as an investment rather than as
money. But in fact, gold is and has been for thousands of years, wealth
itself. It is the essential inflation hedge, and is currently trading within
10% of a 19-year low price. Marketwise, time is currently on gold's side
as its price in U.S. dollars is near a historic low. Put a little thought to it,
and you understand that to buy gold is not to spend or use up your
assets, but in fact to help preserve them.
Today, most of us let others control our wealth in financial institutions,
banks, and brokerage houses that we entrust to electronically store our
accounts. But if you have significant assets to protect, is it smart not to
have some of those assets in monetary insurance?
And what exactly does gold insure against? Well, for the most part it
insures against economic uncertainty of all kinds. Inflation and the threat
of inflation are best held in check with gold, as it will hold its value in
times of weakening currencies. But also it protects you in monetary
crises or interruptions in our ordinary economy. Gold is held as a store
of value, even in the most remote and 'primitive' parts of the globe, and
has been for hundreds of years. In a money crisis, gold holds its value
(increasing in value in relation to paper money) and protects its owners
from the ravaging of purchasing power suffered by those whose money is
credit-based rather than gold-based.
But, let's admit it, insurance is boring. The real fun of gold is gold itself.
Gold in its brilliance, its beauty and its warmth, commands our attention
as no other element does. There is something timeless about our primal
response to it – we like it, want to touch it, and find it easily fabricated
into beautiful things. Even as basic and unassuming a form as a
well-executed gold coin reflects light beautifully over its design and
seems to glow.
Why own gold? Because it's private money which becomes permanent
insurance and a family heritage. Because it lasts as does nothing else.
And because a person of means without gold is taking an imprudent risk
entrusting all his or her wealth to outside institutions.
HI - HAT
(4/30/2000; 9:44:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 29627)
Harley Davidson # 29618
Hello again, friend. I whole-heartily agree with what you have posited. No matter what God a man worships to stand humbled before this vast firmament gives rise to a temperment of Love, Grace, and Gratitude.
It gives rise to values that are priceless.
What alarms me most is this. Mankinds whole History is a chronology of despotism and folly. What is different this time is genetic engineering that has reached a frightening scale. Cloning humans and other exotic gene-splicing experiments portends a level of arrogance against creation that could disturb forces we have no concept of.
Harley Davidson
(4/30/2000; 9:38:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 29626)
Sir Henri, ooops, almost forgot...
I'm looking forward to future installments of your Blind...I mean, "Brave New World" drama. (smile)
Harley Davidson
(4/30/2000; 9:31:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 29625)
Sir Henri, good morning to you.
Your original post about the 50 cal. referenced in your msg#: 29622 made me think back to the early ‘90s when I had cause to visit a company called The Flinchbaugh Operations in York, PA, a subsidiary of Olin Corporation. Their product...the original tank killer used in Desert Storm. It was an amazing piece of ordinance. Basically, it was a brass(?) shell casing that stood about two-three feet tall but the twist was that the projectile it pushed was not an explosive device. Rather, it was a most peculiarly eerie looking device that could only be described here as a giant cork board tack...those little colored plastic things with a pin sticking out of one end for sticking a piece of paper to a cork board. Only this thing stood about twelve to fifteen inches tall and six inches in diameter. And this is how this devilish device works: It was made out of depleted uranium so it has incredible mass. Then it is punched out of the barrel of a tank at approximatley 5500 feet per second in an almost flat line trajectory. I saw a freeze-frame, high-speed photo of one just coming out of the barrel and you could actually see the shock waves it produced in the air. Then, traveling at over five times the speed of sound, it hits its mark, an enemy tank. What follows is like Tom Clancy describing what takes place in the first nano seconds of the detonation of an atomic bomb. This projectile, due to the combination of its mass and velocity generates enormous heat upon impact. The heat instantly melts a hole in the armor plating of the tank, but at the same time, causes the projectile itself to liquify. Now consider the hapless saps inside the tank with molten uranium splashing all around the cramped quarters until it finds the magazine where the shells are stored. Actually, they probably never even knew what happened.
Flinchbaugh Operations received special recognition from the government for the exceptional efficiency with which their product accomplished its purpose "when used as directed."
Knallgold
(4/30/2000; 8:57:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 29624)
BIS
The BIS will raise dividend again,from 320 sFr. to 340 sFr. per share.Share trades currently at 8300 sFr.
For quotes etc. on their share, see the link below, type in BIZ (the german word for BIS).
http://www.swissquote.com/
Henri
(4/30/2000; 8:32:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 29623)
Thoughts for a Sunday
Today it is Harley Davidson who waxes the preacher. I defer to his most appropriate post this morning. May God bless you Harley Davidson
Henri
(4/30/2000; 8:28:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 29622)
Harley Davidson on deforestation
Nah, I used to use an old beech for a backstop that was on its last legs anyway. Its demise accelerated rapidly. Since then I use our local club range.
Henri
(4/30/2000; 8:26:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 29621)
Brave New World
I had an idea for a continuing saga type drama as events unfold featuring all of our characters in the gold "business". It is to be set in a swinging door saloon in the "Old West" and have focus on the card game in the corner. It will use the analogy of the "poker game" described earlier to mimic the action in the international gold debacle unfolding. The town and its residents are trapped in a time warp ala Douglas Adam's "Restaurant at the end of the Universe" and hence anyone can pop in at anytime from any time for a visit. The text will be richly populated with characters from the barmaid and bartender to the local sheriff and regional US Mashall...and of course the "players". It will take awhile to "set-the-stage". Wait! I think I hear a stagecoach coming in now. D*mn the dust...it gets into everything! Hope the hard drive doesn't freeze up!
Harley Davidson
(4/30/2000; 8:20:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 29620)
Sorry, that should have been...
Good Morning, HI - HAT
Henri
(4/30/2000; 8:15:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 29619)
Thoughts for a Sunday Morning
I have no worthy thoughts this morning. Perhaps later.
Harley Davidson
(4/30/2000; 8:12:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 29618)
Good Morning Hi Hat...
Two items. First, I owe you an apology for reacting to a post of yours with too much vigor some time ago as I suspected you were actually someone from another forum with a different handle who I found to be very irritating. Shortly after reading more of your posts I realized my mistake and for that I apologize to you and all here for my bad judgement.
And now to business. You began your msg#: 29615, "In Immorality We Trust". Yes, this is what we are left with after removing God and His Word from the Court rooms and from the schools. What basis do we have for morality when we reject the very source of morality this country was founded on. Its kind of ironic we print "In God we trust" on our fiat currency. Who is "we" today. Certainly not the civil liberties union.
Oro, in his Msg ID:29003 said in his fifth point, "the idea of a debt derived money offering stability in economic function and in prices is an absurdity on the scale of defying gravity, absolving the world from Newton's law. Without an anchor in a commodity money, all debt money spirals out of control and into worthlessness. No conceivable system can make it otherwise. Gold is to finance and money as the speed of light is to Einstein's law of relativity. Gold answers the question "relative to what?".
I posit that God is to ethics and morality as the speed of light is to Einstein's law of relativity. God answers the question of "relative to what?" in a moral sense. Further, I would say that the two are very closely inter-related. A implies B and B implies A. We all see what happens when gold is removed as a standard. We can expect more, much more, of the same as we remove God as a standard also. Yes, and so it is "In Immorality We Trust" and so shall we reap!
Henri
(4/30/2000; 8:07:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 29617)
Schippi Post # 29600
Nice Graph!
It shows me that the US$ being in an upswing should be exchanged for items in a downswing. (XAU & Gold) This will maintain a flat performance trend until the cycle reverses. The assumption of course is that you can produce excess $ above what is needed to sustain life and the govt fees (taxes). The nice thing about gold is that it (as physical) does not produce "income" and hence does not incur liability to the self proclaimed granters of our prosperity. Stocks, Bonds, and even gold stocks bear a govt registration such that any dividends garnered are garnished and the eventual liquidation of the paper is subject to garnishment as well from a capital gains perspective. It is not difficult to imagine as Another and FOA have intimated that should gold rise any benefit to gold stocks will be reduced to zero sum by further government intervention.
Gold on the other hand, need not be liquidated and hence subjected to a "cashing in" fee. Even if gold is not released from its shackles, it is recognized the world over as wealth pure and simple.
Usul
(4/30/2000; 8:05:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 29616)
Observations
I have been on holiday for a few days (I will make certain
observations on that further below), coming home to find
my contest prize for "Easy Money", for which I am most
grateful. A listing in the contest HOF was a special bonus.
It is truly an honour to be listed alongside the forum's
other great contributors. Our host's active interest in the
Forum is notable, and it is clear that his competitions
have stimulated, and will very probably continue to
stimulate many thought-provoking entries.
Finally, I would like to thank the Academy, the stagehands,
the scriptwriters, my family, the cameramen...
(OK, that last sentence was just a feeble attempt at humour)
While on holiday I was cut off from the net and did not look
at the specialist press such as the FT. This is an
instructive experience, because there is a general lack of
any significant coverage of many events that we otherwise
tend to see as potentially earth-shattering. The only
things that achieved significant public profile were the
Rover/BMW crisis (far from systemic to the economy, but
perhaps related to the strong pound, as if Rover could sell
cars cheaply through a weak pound I doubt if BMW would want
to let them go), the developing Microsoft break-up,
and the most recent fall in the Euro. Of course, you don't
get any discussion of the level of gold reserves in the Euro
system as an influence on the Euro. The level of concern
over falling share prices appears to be minimal, as if
current movements were merely part of normal market
fluctuations. I look back at the high-street slowdown
of the early 90s and there is nothing to compare with that
as yet. If we consider the developing financial crisis
as a growth curve, it is clear that those of us who see it
coming are still at the early-adopter stage. The people
in the street are not sufficiently concerned yet to slow
spending and cause retail to react (through closures,
"fire" sales, etc). People with little or no investments
to worry about control a lot of spending, and they will
react last, through employment-related fears.
But the length of time that this has
been developing, unless we are all wrong (and there are
plenty of big names who have expressed concern) suggests
the fall of a very big animal (almost imperceptibly at
first, so that you aren't sure that it is even hurt yet),
but slowly gathering momentum, and ultimately falling
with an almighty crash, sending the gathered crowds
running for their lives.
HI - HAT
(4/30/2000; 7:01:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 29615)
In Immorality We Trust
Curiosity did not kill the cat ; assuming killed it.
In your souls you know gold is not a get rich scheme. Stealth accumulation is an elemental act of self preservation. Never can you trust the enchantments on stage in a virtual paper world. The play lines can be changed at whim by those orchestrating the production.
A trend in motion will continue until.....................
A thief is a thief. The political class and "Public Servants", accomodate, nay cause the very problems that they demand ever-more of your productive endeavors to solve. Their guiding torch is to proscribe what's "FAIR". What's fair is to hold in contempt a system that extorts from those whose morals abide to keep the rewards of work. Property is sacrosanct, not something to be sacrificed to make sure everybody is placated in what their idea of fair is.
Only those that suck at the tits of the strong embrace in their mouths the philosoghy of something for nothing.
Trust that Fiat is the springboard to all evil.
Trust the forces of fiat to bring rack and ruin.
The "GOOD" is the good because it sustains.
Evil is driven only with the force to consume itself.
Golden Calf
(4/30/2000; 5:33:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 29614)
Let's put a close to this discussion please.
Thai-gold
Thanks for the repost, but do please reread what it said,
and what you stated in quotes, and you may see that the
impression, impressionable folks might get, is quite different
From your repost......
"Every Thai worker gets half a sack of rice per month. If they want to eat
any meat, they have to catch it.
From your origional post.....
The bureaucrat went on to say, that the Farmers "pay" those
highly valued Thai workers, "a half-bag of rice, monthly".
From your repost......
Domedej Bunnag, the Thai ambassador, admits that some of his fellow
countrymen like to hunt. But he said: "This is just one factor among
many. We refuse to take all the blame, but are ready to help to resolve
the problem by educating our workers."
From your origional post........
The bureaucrat, explained that their Department has made
"great strides" in ReEducating the errant Thai workers...
Do you begin to see, and understand, that when you quote, out
of context, and not with the article infront of you, one gets a completely
different impression. The Israeli gov't isn't seeking to reeducate Thai workers,
but to save it's wild life. Simple isn't it?
Payment in rice was never mentioned and is not the case. Thais are paid wages,
and are "given rice". Noone has made it clear, but I believe the gov't gives them
rice, gratis, as we have a socialist gov't. which knows how best to spend our tax monies.
ThaiGold
(4/30/2000; 4:47:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 29613)
Here's the Link and the full News Article
Golden Calf (4/30/2000; 2:16:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 29611)
....
...
..
4-30-2000
To: Golden Calf
To: All
Here's the Link to the Telegraph's Thai-Worker article:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=000124036011016&rtmo=VPlFl1lx&atmo=99999999&pg=/et/00/4/25/whunt25.html
Shown below, is the entire text of the article.
Please judge for yourself, and let me know if you still
feel I was distorting what I'd read/recalled from this
news article.
Thanks...
ThaiGold...ThaiRanch@OpoeraMail.Com
The Text:
[Telegraph -- Quote]
ISSUE 1796
Tuesday 25 April 2000
Game is up for hungry Thais, Israelis decide
By Alan Philps in Jerusalem
Jerusalem Post
News - Israel
Nature & National
Parks Protection
Authority
ISRAEL has ordered a three-year ban on hunting after Thai guest
workers were blamed for eating everything from wolves to gazelles and
birds.
At first, conservationists thought the cause of an alarming decline in
Israeli wildlife might be drought, pollution or the destruction of habitat
through development. But they now accept that all creatures great and
small are disappearing into the bellies of about 20,000 Thai farm
labourers employed to tend avocadoes and pack oranges for the
European market.
Rangers have found hundreds of simple traps near where the Thais work.
Local people, Jews or Arabs, do not use such traps. In the southern
Golan there were 6,000 gazelles seven years ago. Now there are only
500. In the same area, conservationists put radio collars on 18 wolves.
Four were found in Thai-style noose traps. A population of several dozen
wild boar near the Dead Sea has died out.
Yair Sharon, a wildlife inspector for the National Parks Authority, said:
"Every Thai worker gets half a sack of rice per month. If they want to eat
any meat, they have to catch it. It is amazing what they eat: dogs, cats,
raccoons, jackals, small birds, chicks and eggs.
"I have learned much from them. They are far more efficient at catching
wolves than we are, despite all our high technology. They use
techniques from Biblical times - catapults, bits of string and things they
find lying around."
The arrival of the Thai workers is an unintended consequence of the
Arab-Israeli conflict. Israeli farms employed Palestinian labour until the
mid-Nineties, when unrest led the government to close off the occupied
territories, which meant the workers could not get to the fields. The
solution was to import labour from Thailand.
Mr Sharon said: "If you want nature conservation, you cannot have Thai
workers. It is part of their culture to hunt and they may be hungry, too."
Domedej Bunnag, the Thai ambassador, admits that some of his fellow
countrymen like to hunt. But he said: "This is just one factor among
many. We refuse to take all the blame, but are ready to help to resolve
the problem by educating our workers."
[Telegraph -- UnQuote]
ThaiGold
(4/30/2000; 4:18:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 29612)
I will research and post the link. Trust me.
Golden Calf (4/30/2000; 2:16:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 29611)
....
...
..
4-30-2000
To: Golden Calf
Thank you for your reasoned and informative response.
I paraphrased the item, from an actual news story,
and I shall post the link as soon as I can re-find
that link. Trust me.
I meant no disrespect to the farmers of Israel, nor their
industrious imported Thai farm workers. But it's the only
conclusion anyone..ANYONE..could arrive at by reading that
news item. What more can I say.?.
The (only) information in the news report, was
exactly as I could best recall it. You will see.
And I will be the first to join you, in emailing a
protest to the reporters at the Telegraph, for their
incomplete or misleading report, based upon what you
have just shared with us.
My apologies, to you, at this time, regardless.
Cordially,
ThaiGold...
ThaiRanch@OperaMail.Com
==========================================================
Golden Calf
(4/30/2000; 2:16:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 29611)
Let's not give false impression....ey?
ThaiGold (4/30/2000; 1:13:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 29610)
Of Rice and Men
Even Wooden Nickels Might Help...
Suggest that when you read an article, you state what you read,
not what you think, since most of the information you just posted
is way off the mark.
Living on a farming community, Moshav- and saying sawadicarp, almost daily, to several Thai
workers, I believe I can straighten out several of the little tid-bits you were wrong about.
1- There are no big farms in Israel, since what's left of the country, is smaller than
New Jersy.
2- There are very few workers that ever worked here, from foreign Arab countries, like
Jordan or Lebanon, or some such! We do have many Palastinians, but due to terrorists
and murders, occasionally committed by them, those that require laborers, have found
it expedient, more cost effective, and safer to hire from places like Rumania, Thailand etc.
3- Thai and other cheap labor has been imported, for farm work, similar to Mexicans
in the US. They are accustomed to eating animals, such as cats dogs, wild life, etc. I've even
seen them along beaches catching little sand crabs, which they enjoy eating.
4-There is little time left for them to hunt wild life, as you claim, and their pay, which
they send home to their families in Thailand, is not a bag of rice....check it out. They
also often work extra hours, and jobs for extra pay, and are very soft spoken, kind
and happy to have found work.
Believe it or not, they are not starving, and frequent local villages for coffee, and
relaxation......care to check it out, I can send you pictures, and comments, from them
and about them if you wish.
Just post your email.
Peace, Shalom, and caup-kun-carp
ThaiGold
(4/30/2000; 1:13:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 29610)
Of Rice and Men
Even Wooden Nickels Might Help...
....
...
..
All:
Saw an interesting news item last week, in the UK Telegraph.
Seems the Wildlife Protection bureaucrats in Israel have
discovered the cause of their biggest problem: Wildlife
species of all sorts have been increasingly decimated...
The cause.?.
Big Israeli farmers, forced to import cheap Thai farmworkers
because they can no longer (politically) get previous farm
workers from [Jordan]?[Lebanon][or some such]...
The Thai workers have learned many ingenious tricks to trap,
capture, kill, and eat the disappearing WildLife...
The bureaucrat, explained that their Department has made
"great strides" in ReEducating the errant Thai workers...
The bureaucrat went on to say, that the Farmers "pay" those
highly valued Thai workers, "a half-bag of rice, monthly".
... I wonder... If anyone there, Farmers or Bureaucrats,
ever thought of paying those starving Thai's with a little
Meat, as well, might solve the problem alot quicker.?.
ThaiGold...
==========================================================
ThaiGold
(4/30/2000; 0:36:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 29609)
Wood That We Could...
Peter Asher (4/29/2000; 22:55:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 29605)
...
..
4-29-2000
To: Peter Asher
[Peter Asher--Quote]
Timberland is the ultimate homestead, because you have a perennial crop of 7%
annual biomass growth, absolute inflation parity in the long term, and
additional appreciation faster than the cost of living, as society out harvests
the supply and legislates more into protection.
[Peter Asher--UnQuote]
An excellent observation; point; and investment idea.!.
I will place an order, Monday morning for all of the
Wooden Nickels that MK has. Trees.!. Yes. Of course.
Why didn't I think of that.
(Wink)
ThaiGold...
===========================================================
Peter Asher
(4/30/2000; 0:32:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 29608)
USAGOLD (4/27/2000; 19:29:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 29466)
Re- your post in general, and specifically your >>> One wonders now in retrospect, whether or not the Washington Agreement could have been a retaliation to earlier attempts at undermining the euro. <<<<
Indeed: -- From my non-award winning contest post of 2/27 (Again)
>>>Therefore the advent of the Gold backed Euro and the Washington agreement are changes in the most basic fundamentals of the gold marketplace. For whatever reasons exist to be contemplated and discovered, these two events are surly part of a piece.
The US trade deficit is only maintainable by the fact of the dollar being the reserve currency of the world. THE ENTITY WHOSE ECONOMY IS BACKED BY THE RESERVE CURRENCY OF THE WORLD, CAN CONSUME MORE THAN IT PRODUCES. (How's that for a motive on our part) The deficit is offset by the float! Euroland has been on the short end of this stick to date. It would behoove them to attempt to replace the dollar with the Euro. As even their composite economy does not have the magnitude of ours, how better to sway the World's traders than to back the currency, increasingly, with gold? If the marketplace can be controlled sufficiently for all borrowed gold to be returned to the CB vaults, then the lower price of gold will have created a net buying opportunity. Low prices will only have created losses on the quantities sold into the open market. It does not hurt a Central Bank to loose value on its hoard for a few years, if it still has it when the price recovers. Look not at what they sell, but at what they keep!
We may have only seen the first part of an ongoing strategy of the Central Banks increasing their gold reserves. This is not the only possible theory of the hidden reasons behind the manipulation the POG, but the events of this year do fit it well. It is still early in the Game! <<<<
But, what is the GAME ??
You said >>> the demise of the nation state, and the rise of corporate fiefdoms capable of over-riding the power of the states -- corporate feudalism if you will. <<<<
Oh yes! This has more than once been a "Futurist" prediction in Sci Fi novels. If they can, they will.
When we talked about this, you expressed a bit of dismay that there could be such a high level of greed out there. Well, decades ago there was a cartoon showing two elderly tycoons sipping brandy in the den with the African game all over the wall and the caption is (more or less) -- "Sex, money and power; sex money and power, First you try for all the sex you can get, then you try for all the money. but in the end it's the power that really counts."
Anyway, back to a present motive for deliberate creation of a highflying dollar: The foreign holdings of 40% of U.S. treasuries and the European holdings in our stock market, very likely are pivotal to sustaining the viability of the global economy. How better to keep these foreign holdings from being sold, in a desired and necessary flat, sideways U.S. market, then to have these assets appreciate in the currencies of their holders. While American Investors are getting their "Cold Shower", the Europeans are kept satisfied by a gentle appreciation in their equity value because the dollar denominated stocks and bonds go "Up" in Euros. Just another as you say, "attempt to find a root cause for its (Euro) strange behavior.
The other unknown of course is, between the giant hedge funds and the world class politicians, who carries the bigger stick?
I was thinking that money campaigns for politicians first and then the politicians pay their dues, but then I read that the Soros fund is coming unglued and now I wonder again.
ViewYesterday's Discussion.
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