Welcome to the USAGOLD Gold Discussion Archives. Looking to buy gold coins and bullion? The archives of this gold discussion forum are a treasure trove of information to educate investors about protecting their wealth through portfolio diversification with private gold ownership. The discussion forum also covers the wider issues of the past, present, and future role of gold in international monetary policy and the dynamics of the modern gold markets. To join the debate request a discussion password here.
The opinions posted by all guests at this forum are expressly their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the management or staff of USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals. The hosting of this forum shall therefore not be construed as equivalent to endorsement by USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals of any of the opinions posted here.
ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 5/30/1999 All times are U.S. Mountain Time View Yesterday's Discussion. Peter Asher (5/30/99; 23:10:48MDT - Msg ID:6901) IRAs Most investors, when faced with a compulsory long term investment, will choose stocks or bonds. The IRA rules virtually assured that result in any case. So, an 'incentive' was created to feed the markets, or the government, with spending money in the now, that may or may not be redeemable later.Coming next to a country near you is The Clinton Production Co. Performance of 25% or more of all social security funds feeding the market. (Read, " feeding consumer spending, via the sellers of stock").If this comes to pass, the federal government will have created, by fiat, A PERPETUAL FLOW OF BIGGER FOOLS. beesting (5/30/99; 22:43:43MDT - Msg ID:6900) More on the rumer of Vatican Gold. http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/vt.html Sir,Caven Man #6890,Thank you for your fine post and giving a little more insight for the non-Catholics into the business workings of the church.I did a little internet surfing and found the above URL to gain a little more knowledge about the Vatican.If you go to the above URL address scroll down to industries....Worldwide banking and financial activities. I true-ly don't mean to raise anyones blood-pressure over the topic of Vatican Gold,and maybe it's really none of my business,but after reading the USAGOLD post#6824 I couldn't get the previously posted thoughts out of my head without share-ing them.Mike-55,and Peter Asher thank you for responding also........beesting backlash (5/30/99; 22:43:39MDT - Msg ID:6899) Chicken Man - - - re: IRA's My friend you have made a wise choice regarding investing in an IRA. Your words ring true in reference to another govt. scam to get to the money. I had never thought of the situation in quite the light you presented it in your post # 6854.May I take a moment to relate my IRA experience.An IRA sure looked like a great deal as it was proposed in the beginning. Lookie, no tax on that money now and then it will be taxed at a lower rate after you retire. Just how wil this work? WELL, let's take a quick look. Premise #1: You will spend it now if you do not put it in a "safe" place. [ Oh yeah! It was those of us who had the bucks and were willing to save them, then and now.]Premise #2: You will be in a lower tax bracket because when you retire you will only have social security to live on. (And they know that will put you in a LOW bracket.) [HORSEFEATHERS ! ! Those who then were smart enough to know to set aside something for the future at that time were also the same ones capable of earning good money at that magic age of 59 1/2.So what has happened to me? Yes, I fell for the "sales pitch" as did many others. Well, , , having passed the magic age, I now find that I am in a HIGHER tax bracket than when the funds were set aside for my 'retirement'. The bottom line is that after almost 20 years, the IRA accounts (originally) were so handicapped with restricted investing capabilities that I have lost significant value from depreciation PLUS I am in a higher taxation bracket.How's that for a good deal? All dressed up and ready to go. And, no, I did not get in a the 401k scam. Just wait until the market tanks, the economy is a shambles, and bread lines streatch for blocks. Any ideas on just what the 401k's will be worth then?They (govt. and financial guru's) can all go take a flying leap as far as I am concerned. Think I will go back to work on getting the latest item on which I just received a patent. Just thinking about this depresses me.Chicken Man, good thinking to see through their BS.Best Wishes, blP.S. As with Aristotle, I have been absent for a while because of being out of town. Wow does it take some time to catch back up. bl Peter Asher (5/30/99; 22:29:48MDT - Msg ID:6898) Cavan Man Neat, concise, to the point, well said. And tactfully unoffensive. koan (5/30/99; 22:29:36MDT - Msg ID:6897) G @ S next week and other thoughts Next week should be exciting. I am guessing and hoping for a turn around. Peter Asher (5/30/99; 22:26:22MDT - Msg ID:6896) Christine Leaving aside the permissions and prohibitions of Constitutions and other laws, A positive case could be made for a one world currency. The following excerpt from my post #1179-12/6/98-PM would be applicable.< For years I have tried out different one-liners to define money, and the one I like best is, "Money is a form of bookkeeping."Imagine the early times, when barter was first recognized as not being liquid enough, and also men began to perform services for one another. Keeping records of goods and services on papyrus was only as good as the "paper it was written on." The ability to read and the willingness of others to believe it. Men turned to hard assets to have a way to store the value of their trade and labor.The earliest money was pieces of iron that looked like molten drippings had been cooled into beads and strips. Once the concept got going, gold was the money of choice, because it did not rust or corrode and had the highest ratio of value to weight.While on one hand it was being bartered for goods and services, on the other hand it was functioning as a form of indestructible, transportable bookkeeping.As the ability to maintain data on paper became workable, paper became more dependable. The earliest paper money was receipts for gold and silver which more or less functioned as a medium of exchange from the time of the first Rothchilds until we went off the Gold Standard. Now, as we say, it's fiat money, blips on a screen, and so forth. But it's still bookkeeping.This is not a problem in the short-term.At one time and place we had a crew of younger carpenters whom we paid on Monday morning after figuring up the pay cards over the weekend. They protested this, saying they wanted to get paid Friday night because that's when they went out to get the groceries and then had something left over for the weekend. After putting a little in the bank to write the rent and utility checks, it was gone. They didn't have a problem with fiat money.Now the other end of the spectrum is the situation described by ANOTHER-- the need to record and preserve value for generations. Unique to the planet, his people's assets are only oil. They have no farmland or forests for long-term estate building and storage of value. What else is there but gold?Which brings us to the great in-between, all those who have something left at the end of the week and want to hold onto it. Fiat money works because it's keeping the books, but only if the value of one's unspent credit doesn't change. And so we arrive at THE PROBLEM. If you came from another world you would think that our global system of exchange was created by lunatics. People's entitlement to goods and services are recorded in various forms of "money." They then put in great time and effort competing with others to increase its value. They let others use their unspent credit in return for more, and large numbers of individuals make a living by administrating this chaos.Most significantly, bookkeeping is no longer only a record of endeavor and delivery. Credits are created by banks for things not yet produced.The sum of all this is — unknown. There is no quantitative knowledge or control of the global economy.Now, even gold has been manipulated as a storage of value, and that is the conundrum that I think we on the Forum have been wrestling with. We know it's the most valid and desirable safe haven, but in the last few years it has deviated from that function more than at any other time in history. Therefore the people who have value to protect will require a greater level of necessity before they will transfer that value to gold, which is, while not as stable as in other times, still the last refuge from the storm.>I'm not proposing this, mind you. It's just possible that it could be a major improvement over the present chaos. Cavan Man (5/30/99; 22:14:44MDT - Msg ID:6895) Mr. Asher Thanks. ??. Am I learning? By clean, what do you mean? Cavan Man (5/30/99; 22:10:00MDT - Msg ID:6894) To USA Gold I thank you MK. "Luck" is where preparation meets opportunity. There is an old proverb; "The harder I work the luckier I get". I have been working hard at this site. Diversity of investments (type) is not disputed. Having opened Pandora's Box vis a vis this teriffic forum, the question I ask you is, how much and when? Events appear to be moving swiftly independent of the analysis offered by your esteemed guests. What say ye? Cavan Man (5/30/99; 21:55:33MDT - Msg ID:6893) On Roman Catholic Drug Lords Sir: Any person who is involved in the drug trade is neither a Roman Catholic or Christian; I mean, declaring yourself "catholic" is not like belonging to the YMCA. A prominent German philosopher once said, " label me and negate me". Labels have no value. Peter Asher (5/30/99; 21:50:04MDT - Msg ID:6892) Caven Man Nice clean post! Bravo Peter Asher (5/30/99; 21:48:25MDT - Msg ID:6891) Speaking of some markets being closed While the cats away, the mice will play?? Or maybe our friend Spot, who has started the week off with a playfull jump of $.45 Cavan Man (5/30/99; 21:47:08MDT - Msg ID:6890) beesting "Vatican Gold" Dear Sir: You should study the history of "the Church" of which there is truly only one. The Roman or Western Church does posess a lot of wealth; probably resulting from many years (ancient) tithes. The idea of US Parishes exchanging cash for gold is pure fiction; the majority of parishes are trying to make ends meet. Their contributions to their respective jurisdictions including Rome (Peter'Pence) might be vehicles for investment in gold. However, I can assure you that the local parish Priest and laity are not sophisticated enough to make PM investments. I like to defend the RC Church having been a former Roman Catholic. Should they have so much wealth; NO. Should they participate in the "gold carry trade";NO. Is the Vatican corrupted; probably and generally speaking, YES. Is Pope John Paul a holy man and one of God's messengers; YES. Is the current Pope a slave to the history of the Papacy; YES. Should you throw out the baby with the bath water; NO.I thank you for your many fine posts. Peter Asher (5/30/99; 21:43:20MDT - Msg ID:6889) Mike 55 About 36 years ago there was a movie called "The Shoes of the Fisherman" starring Anthony Quinn. He plays the Pope, confronted with a massive Asian famine. The U.N. beseeches the Vatican to sell all its Jewels and Gold to pay for the feeding of a couple of billion people. After much soul searching( and other assorted Hollywood drama) he acquiesces because he wishes to walk in "The shoes of the fisherman", who is of course, Peter. Julia (5/30/99; 21:11:08MDT - Msg ID:6888) Chaos? At this Table? How can this be? As has been noted by many great thinkers in the last few days and weeks, even months, communication through the internet is exciting. But any intelligent thinking adult knows that the internet is easily manipulated and disinformation (even if not intended to be misleading) is easily published. We know we must be careful and deliberate in our hypothesis when we read another person's THOUGHTS. Without the conventional "editor" (who, as we all know, has his/her own agenda/filters) of the main stream media, we discount the THOUGHTS of others as hogwash if they are different from or new to us. We miss the mark when, instead of focusing on a person's THOUGHTS and letting them be just that, a person's THOUGHTS, we want to know the person's pedigree. And sometimes their pedigree fuels our prejudices and filters out the spirit of their THOUGHT. The internet frees us from some of our prejudices just by the very fact that we don't know who it is that posts their THOUGHTS. The responsibility rests on our shoulders to decipher the truth as we see it for our own good, no matter what or who the source is. "It's the THOUGHT that counts." THOUGHTS are gifts from others to be used for our good. To tear the person down who gave them is to miss the gift. Even the THOUGHTS we deem useless for ourselves make us think and grow stronger in our convictions. It takes courage to open our eyes and take a look at a point of view different from our own, to ask questions and remain open to hear the answers without prejudice. Something really interesting happens to the group of people as a whole when the individuals each begin to care about those with whom they disagree. But don't we all, some more than others, in a perfect world, prefer to remain within our box of filters, smugly unchallenged. The way technology is expanding, we can one day clone ourselves and never be without people just like us. Now that's scary. I read the other day, that the sheep they cloned is possibly aging faster than normal.....side effects of mankind tinkering with the way God created nature.As I began to discover the different THOUGHTS at this site many months ago, I became aware that our THOUGHTS are an even stronger definition of who we are than if we walked into a room physically. I've come to believe that the person walking into the room wears a mask. Here the mask can be removed and the real spirit of the person is allowed to communicate without the prejudices that attach themselves to face-to-face appearances. This could be used, as we know, for THOUGHTS rolled across our paths meant to trip us up and lead us astray, as well. At first, maybe we tried to conform to others’ way of thinking in order to maintain peace. Or we ignored our differences and would not talk about them. We had a pseudo-group. It's safe. Shallow...but safe none-the-less. In beginning posting our THOUGHTS, we are polite and kind and apologetic when we step on others’ proverbial toes. We try to avoid conflicts but a time comes when we just have to admit that we don't agree. Then we set about trying to change each other and convert each other to our side. Motive?....to win...Then chaos breaks out among us. Individual differences are acknowledged and we try to get rid of them by attempting to change or convert each other. It is a healthy part of building good communication, but only "IF" the goal is for the group to move out of chaos to the place where personal prejudices, expectations, ideology, theology, solutions, the need to fix or control are purposefully set aside in order to accomplish inclusivity, graceful struggles and fighting, sadness, laughter, a safe place to share one's THOUGHTS and ask questions. ...ultimately to accomplish our mission.Anyway, I give you my gift of THOUGHTS.Thankyou, JuliaP.S. Being vulnerable is not something we do naturally as human beings. Giving the gift of one's THOUGHTS, especially the first time published out in cyberspace, is a pure act of courage. But in the giving there is growth for the giver as well as the receiver. Got courage? mike55 (5/30/99; 21:10:23MDT - Msg ID:6887) beesting, Re: Vatican Gold I'm sure the folks who frequent this forum can discuss this subject without too much controversy, though you know what's said about discussing politics, religion, etc. If we separate religion from the Vatican (and some will say we can't), but let's say we can, and we view the Vatican as an institution, then I believe there's room for discussion. IMHO, your points 1(a&b) are factual, and 1(c) is possible (heck, anything's possible). As many know, the Vatican has been preparing for years for "Jubilee 2000", which is among other things, a sort of "righting of wrongs" if you will, for centuries of past actions. One of the items on the Jubilee agenda is that first-world nations forgive the unserviceable debt of third-world nations. I believe this is out of good intention, nothing more.That being said, I throw this out to the greater minds who frequent this site: If we can gather more thoughts/facts on questions 2-4, how might this call to forgive debts tie into the Vatican's gold position vis-a-vis the rest of the world's gold positions? Tomcat (5/30/99; 20:34:58MDT - Msg ID:6886) A trump card for the US/IMF in the Euro/Dollar game. Welome back Aristotle. Welcome Technician.The Euro/Bis certainly has a lot going for it and the US$/IMF has its work cut out for it. Indeed, the US$/IMF might be in the finally stages of an assault on itself; collapse due to being overweight. So why, as Steve H asks, is the euro dropping? Here is a possibile reason. Countries, especially BIS/OIL countries, are waking up the the fact that y2k is very real, very destructive, and that they are out of time. Not low on time. Out of time!Y2k progress results coming in from large US corps are not good either. But relatively speaking, the US, Canada, Austrailia, et al still are doing better on their remediation and they will control the post y2k reconstruction. Therefore, the US$/IMF faction still has the ftq (flight to quality) trump card going for it. Is this enough to cause the euro to drop? Hard to say. But I don't see the Euro vs Dollar scenario simply as a gold vs fiat game. I see the game as a gold ftq versus a y2k ftq. If y2k were not on the horizon I would say that it would be all over for the dollar. However, after the y2k confusion sets in the US is going to have their reconstruction trump card to play. The dollar might be very week but it could still be in there kickin. An international Y2k mess could give the US an excuse to default, devalue the dollar, and then be the good guys who salvage the mess with their y2k reconstruction teams. In addition, y2k is going to interfere with oil deliveries. The mideast oil countries won't be able to play their gold trump card if they are having a hard time getting their oil out of the ground and delivered. After Jan 1, 2000, could it be that countries that lean toward the BIS would get remediated (with US help) last?For this approach to work for the US they would have to keep the bubble inflated at least until the fall. After that, y2k can be blamed on any collapse that occurs. Indeed, it just might be the pin the pricks the bubble. beesting (5/30/99; 20:14:07MDT - Msg ID:6885) Vatican Gold First,welcome back Sir Aristotle,when I hadn't seen a posting from you in a while I became concerned about your well being.Guess I'm becoming an old hen in my old age!I've really been holding back on this post because it is a controversial subject in my opinion.In the USAGOLD post#6824 a Mr.Insider suggests that the Vatican may hold more than 8000 tons(USA's amount)of physical Gold.Lets examine this assumption; 1. Where did this Gold come from? 2. Has it been added to recently?(The last 30 years)3. Has it been added into official world Central Bank Gold holdings?4. Does the Vatican have its own Central Bank seperate from the C.B. of Italy?I'll try to give my answers, but remember this is speculation based on speculation.1.(a)A hold over from the Roman Empire days. (b)Donations made over 1900 years(some forced?) (c)This is the one that I hesitated about posting;Donations by Catholic Drug Lords?What better way to launder hot money. In the U.S. Churches are tax exempt and over the years could exchange paper money for Gold in mind boggle-ing amounts.Many of the drug producing countries are predominantly Catholic.Italy has a long reputation concerning'shall we say underground activities,and in my opinion would not hesitate to use un-ethical methods of gaining wealth.Family ties in some families,may be stronger then religious ties.Think about this!2.Don't know!3.Don't know!4.Don't know!Remember all this is speculation........beesting SteveH (5/30/99; 19:21:01MDT - Msg ID:6884) Euro I read at gold-eagle that someone believe the ECB is going to act to support the Euro on internation markets. They thought $5 billion would be used to do this. They thought that Monday would be a good day as the US Forex (??) was closed and it wouldn't take as much dollars.I propose we watch this close. It would seem a test of the A/FOA anaylsis. What if instead of dollars, they apportion another $5 billion in gold????What would happen if they did that? Would the Euro rise and stay there? SteveH (5/30/99; 18:53:32MDT - Msg ID:6883) Christine Don't feel compelled to respond...unless you really have to. The alleged new electronic currency fits well within the A/FOA scenario. Why?Kitco and gold-eagle have shown Armstrong's involvement in gold shorting and talking down gold. Further, his PEI discussion of New Zealand wanting to go electronic was pooh-poohed by a Kitco poster who knew a higher up government official who said in essence, poppy-cock. He is merely in the $/IMF camp. To say that their is a further hidden agenda would mean that both factions, $/IMF and Euro/Bis are for a world currency. I see no indications in any post I read that this is being considered. Indications meaning snippets of information even discussing that issue from both camps. Not that the Internet is full of such information, I just am not hearing about that except from the $/IMF camp. So, as I see it, you really are in agreement, it is just that you see a third, more hidden agenda playing out that hasn't laid its cards, which may or may not involve both of the above factions, perhaps being a third. Is that correct?If it is correct, please direct us to some site where you see evidence of this. The only factions that I see not fully accounted for in all of our discussion of 6820 and A/FOA are the Japanese and Chinese and Russians. I believe the Russians are leaning towards gold as are the Chinese. The Japanese I don't have clue as they are major US bond holders (but then so are the Chinese).All I know is that if the US Equity markets tank and US citizens loose 50% or more of their 401Ks and the price of oil in US terms doubles or triples, lots of folks may loose their jobs and we will most assuredly see bankrupties increase even more and property values plummet. Who remembers who the President was during the late 20's when all was wonderful in the Stock market? I only remember who was the President was during the depression. He made gold illegal to own and confiscated gold and made lots of little mistakes that ended up getting us into World War II before we pulled out of it for good. (I am not saying his policies caused WWII, just that they didn't avoid a war). Technician (5/30/99; 17:55:47MDT - Msg ID:6882) correction http://www.homestead.com/purifoysfutures/purifoy.html Sorry about bad link. Interesting, my post appeared immediately but my link did not work but here is the corrected one if you wish. USAGOLD (5/30/99; 17:53:05MDT - Msg ID:6881) Technician... Special welcome from USAGOLD. Being from Colorado, we have strong ties to the Academy. My kids went to summer camp -- basketball, golf and gymnastics -- for years there. Always the finest of treatment for the kids and a great experience to be around the cadets. We also have friends with young men at the Academy trying to become Air Force officers. CPM has a few clients among your faculty and staff. You really do live and work in a beautiful place.Welcome and we look forward to your presence at the FORUM. Technician (5/30/99; 17:44:10MDT - Msg ID:6880) Oil and gold http://www.homestead.com/purifoysfutures/ I have been a lurker with Kitco, Eagle and USA for a long time. I cannot resist taking an opportunity to present myself to an on line forum. Especially, to such an exemplary one as USAGOLD. I often enjoy posts on Eagle and sometimes on Kitco but USAGOLD stands heads and shoulders. I offer my little homestead web page with some trepedation since I do not wish to present any appearance of "promoting" myself. I have no commercial interest. Just a high school math teacher, retired from USAF who has a passion for commodities. My software and indicators are my own and not for sale. Whatever I have is for public perusal.1) Have you noticed how negative and self abusive Kitco has become? Is that a contrarian viewpoint or not. Gold consistently went down the more excited they became.2) We are without a doubt in somekind of deflationary contraction. Just look at the CRB. But is it bottoming also?And the $, looks like it is going to the moon!!3) But, let's stay technical and objective and wait for the turning points. I believe they will all telegraph their intentions well before their directional moves. 4) Anyone else interested in strictly terchnical calls? I love the challenge and believe in the power of them. I will appreciate any feedback. Really, analysis of gold must depend on more than price of gold. We must look at currencies, CRB, bonds et al.5) Hope I can be accepted as a USAGold contributor and not be label as selfserving by the criterion of this forum. Aristotle (5/30/99; 17:28:49MDT - Msg ID:6879) A journey of a thousand miles, and then some... A cursory review of the past week reveals that Peter said..."Sometimes one is left wondering if the ensuing silence is the result of having posted content which is either too boring or of insufficient value."A perfect intro to get back into posting-mode. To start, let me assure Peter that my recent silence can be attributed to travels. I'm not sure which is tougher--the preparations for departure, or the attention required by everything upon return. I've got a story or two that may be of passing interest to some of those at the Round Table, and some comments to some for the many great posts that have been made. Ahhhh...it feels good to be home again, and to find the fire burning brightly in the halls of the Castle! ---Aristotle Chicken man (5/30/99; 16:59:27MDT - Msg ID:6878) Christine - Unconstitutional..? I believe if you check the US Constitution, that the money we use today is unconstitutional... Chicken man (5/30/99; 16:48:27MDT - Msg ID:6877) USA Gold - reply to Cavan Wonderful....applause,applause....trumpets blowing....go ahead...give yourself a big gold coin for that essay!!!Cavan...keep seeking the truth....one truth is paper money has never won!...the Chinese tried paper gold in Marco Polo's day....this is not the first battle of paper vs. gold....and gold has always won!!!Always remember why YOU bought PMs....make a decision and stick to it.....forget about the daily price and enjoy your family....in the end you will have a winner.....real wealth to protect a real family....cause people are a more important part of life... Goldfly (5/30/99; 16:22:45MDT - Msg ID:6876) Dear Crazy in Canuck When I first grasped the possibility of the Y2K menace, I was worried silly. As I've gotten more prepared, it's easier to for me to think that nothing much is going to come of it.The way I figure it, the best way to make sure that there will be absolutely no problems from Y2K is to be as ready as possible.So.... Gold is a good idea. But you can't eat it, and people may not be that interested in your gold if they're scratching for food too. Diversify into some foodstuffs and water and heat etc.GF USAGOLD (5/30/99; 16:15:29MDT - Msg ID:6875) Deliberations..... The following is a private e-mail from Cavan and my response. I asked him if I could answer his quesiton publicly at the FORUM so that all might benefit and comment.I don't pretend to have all the answers, but do think there are some principles involved. As a preamble, I would say that the search for knowledge is a long one -- perhaps never-ending -- but we should never allow a wealth of knowledge coming from many sources (and some conflicting) stop us from taking action.Below find Cavan's questions and my responses.-------------------- Michael:You can easily see that I am conflicted, definitely not scared but bewildered. Mr Insider? The Vatican in play? Arabs want gold not dollars? How could I ever discuss this with anybody that I feel should know? Where would I start? No way can I fully explain this to my wife; I don't think Icould because I don't understand fully and, with three young kidsthere's no time. What you and your guest are pointing to is economicarmageddon in this country. Another reason why this is plausible--thereare a great many countries in the world who would like to see US getwhat we have coming to us. I have travelled a fair bit internationally;we're not liked generally by many. What better way than to attack thedollar and deal US a decisive blow economically! The sun always risesthe next day for most other cultures. After a disaster, a Jew, Greek,Arab, Turk, Armenian will pull up stakes and open up somewhere else.Know what I mean? Westerners tend to want to jump out the window.I really don't mind dealing with complex issues, adversity, etc etc.but all of this information is almost too much. If it is poor theoryand wishful thinking, I might very well be screwed. If it is accurate Imight very well be screwed. If I do something or nothing I might bescrewed. If something, how much? I am definitely not a mainstreamperson. I am quite different really. I can see what you suggesthappening. A rational, thinking person simply cannot dismiss thepossibility. However, I say again, this information if accurate ispotentially devastating; too much.I don't believe in coincidences; everything happens for a reason. How Icame to know you and GOLD I really can't remember (the details). Well,there I was and here I am.I am going to continue increasing my position. You know, I don't mind choosing which fork to take. I am not adverse to making decisions quickly. This is different however; I must make a critical choice quickly it seems without sufficient information. My family hangs in the balance. I am going with my strong intuition.Nobody ever said it was going to be easy right.Signing off with best regards,Cavan----------------Reply from USAGOLD:Cavan,There is no perfect course of action, no perfect knowledge. The gut instinct you describe results from a certain amount of knowledge -- don't you think?But perfect knowledge, perfect understanding is unattainable (Genesis?). I have always believed that a simple, but well- aimed strategy that takes into account multiple potentialities provides much more chance for long term success than picking the right investment at the right time. So many spend so much time trying to "hit" on the right investment that take little time trying to understand the major currents swirling around them that might dictate a viable strategy. I can see that you are interested in understanding the financial world we live in. So I would say think (as you already are) in terms of diversification for it anticipates many ills and covers many potentialities. You see you have already made the right decision. Diversification seems a simple strategy but it is very effective. Mr. Insider could be right. He could be wrong. He is not gospel. But if he is accurate, it tells me that the gold market is a much more complicated place than something a few brokerages in New York can control. I view this a good thing. You will ultimately end up using your own judgement. And besides what does it really matter if the Vatican is a big player in the gold market? Or that Saudi Arabia is a major player in the gold market -- something we have suspected at this FORUM for a long time? It isn't financial armageddon to have competitors for the dollar. It only means that we as investors should prepare for the potentiality of a correction in the dollar -- not exactly the end of the world, but definetly something to plug into our thinking.The Vatican was operating in this market long before we knew about it with little or no effect on our daily lives and they will likely continue to operate in it until loans start going bad. All of us are subject to the same financial rules of engagement including the Vatican, the Saudis, the United States, the Bank of England, you and me. There are no conspiracies only groups of people protecting their own interests in their own ways. They are not above the natural order or the ebb and flow of economic and political events.Many come to gold and find a whole new world. It is both fascinating and frightening because it breaks the glass between most of us and an imposed reality. The picture that is painted for us by the daily news is directed toward maintaining public confidence in the paper money system and the governments that created it. (The word "fiat" descends from the Latin word "fieri" -- to become or to be done. It relates to something occurring as a dictate and being accepted on faith.) Nobody wants the system to fail. But if it does fail, I want to be counted among the ones who took the steps to protect myself, family and friends, even nation. A good part of that preparation is gold ownership.Good luck, Cavan.If any other member of the Table Round has some words of wisdom for our fellow knight and traveller, please feel free to comment. I realize that I did not adequately cover some of his concerns. I do not in any way consider the above to be comprehensive or the complete answer for Cavan, but perhaps a safe starting point both intellectually and from a portfolio point of view. USAGOLD (5/30/99; 15:34:10MDT - Msg ID:6874) More Questions from Canuck by E-mail Dear Forum,I remember years ago my father explaining to me that a governmentcannot endlessly print money, there must be a 'collateral' a securityif you will behind it, and he explained to me that gold had thispurpose. Is this correct?I have been watching the US and CDN markets for a while and I too,am nervous of a negative correction. I am involved in Y2K atwork and I see a possible problem. I get the feeling and I can'tdecide, from one day to the next, if the rollover is going to berelatively good or extremely bad. These 2 issues cause me tobelieve gold could be a handsome investment. Am I playing deepin the infield or am I way out in left field???Crazy Canuck pa kua (5/30/99; 14:54:33MDT - Msg ID:6873) Pro-Gold Analysis Golden Nuggets-or a Barbarous Relic? ( Mitch Harris' "Reality Check" 5/27/99) Nice pro-gold assessment. It is available at http://www.gigweb.comChristine:re your " Clarification : The possibility of a new global US currency being implemented is not-fetched. However, I believe it would be unconstitutional and a major step (almost final step) towards economic fascism." 'Fetching' = attractive, appealing. Why not have a global US currency that is not fiat? Even backed by gold? Some would like to cancel our debt (or declare bankruptcy) and do just that. That may seem far-fetched as a possibility of happening. However, involwement by US in several foreign conflicts could force us to refuse to pay on our debt. This is very possible, I think. Christine (5/30/99; 14:24:31MDT - Msg ID:6872) Clarification The possibility of a new global US currency being implemented is not-fetched. However, I believe it would be unconstitutional and a major step (almost final step) towards economic fascism. Christine (5/30/99; 14:15:05MDT - Msg ID:6871) @SteveH--this has got to be my very last post You keep tempting me. IMHO, gold and the euro will go up just like FOA says. I believe we will see this happen very soon. My only disagreement is that this will not be due to a struggle between BIS/euro and IMF/dollar. There is a hidden agenda which is to force us into a new, more international currency (a US global currency). A new global US- based electronic currency conforms to what Martin Armstrong of the Princeton Economic Institute is advocating. Martin Armstrong is a key insider. A new US global currency is not a far-fetched idea at all. In all likelihood our present dollars will be signficantly devalued prior to such a currency change. CoBra(too) (5/30/99; 14:14:31MDT - Msg ID:6870) Laudatio to Steve H. I would like to applaud Sir SteveH for the comprehensive, well written and more important excellent thoughts of his two major posts over the weekend. Both posts are worthy to find the entry into the hall of fame in this castle of the knights of the round table. StH's entry at the Kiki Table at lemetropolecafe "currency wars" again was outstanding.As I have been travelling for some time,I have only skimmed through the last couple of weeks posts. The outstanding thoughts of StH caught my imanigation and if noone has suggested it yet I do hope to find support and seconders for elevating both of Steve H's indepth synopsis to the hall of fame. Personally, Sir Steve, I would like to thank you for your valuable efforts to explain the most complex matters in the easy way you do -which is probably the most valuable gift granted to this site- Thank you again and sincere regards - hoping your efforts may be rewarded.CoBra(too)... Gandalf the White (5/30/99; 14:01:24MDT - Msg ID:6869) SteveH on the GATA webpage Congrats Steve, on the GATA webpage posting ! BUT, I suggest that they give you a new "Table" other than "Kiki".<;-) USAGOLD (5/30/99; 13:47:54MDT - Msg ID:6868) Barron's / Einhorn With respect to the Einhorn Barron's anti-gold propaganda piece (when's the last time Barron's published a favorable outlook for gold), it is interesting to note that as a supposedly neutral and objective journalist, she finds its necessary to rebut James Grant's tongue in cheek comments. This is an interesting lapse:"Newsletter writer James Grant, who pens the witty Interest Rate Observer, opined recently that gold actually has held up rather well, compared with the British pound, which can be 'duplicated at next to no cost on a high-speed printing press.' He predicts that 'sterling's depreciation is predestined; the only issue is the rate of decay.' Thus, he intimates ( as all gold bugs do ) that the Bank of England should perhaps sell its pounds but certainly hold its gold." "In response, we note that, while the pound has had multiple devaluations since 1980, so has gold. Over the past two decades, the metal has slid from 240 per ounce to 170. And like the amount of paper money in circulation, the supply of gold can be expanded ever more cheaply, putting downward pressure on its value."Apparently she feels part of her job is to defend paper money. Who does she refer to as "we"? Cheryl, do you have a mouse in your pocket? Or are you referring to the editorial staff? By the way she got the gold prices wrong, and you cannot defend your currency with your currency, so no 'gold bug' would intimate such a thing, nor would James Grant, for that matter. She completely missed the point Grant was making. Also, which costs more to produce, a million pounds of gold or a million pound sterling on paper? All in all I would comment that a certain understanding of markets, economics and finance should be a requirement before one is issued a keyboard at a national financial publication. SteveH (5/30/99; 13:46:56MDT - Msg ID:6867) Point of clarification to 6820... I believe FOA and Another waited to unveil their thoughts until they believed their point of view was a 'fait accompli (done deal).' Why else would they tip the hand of the Euro/Bis faction? They were not then and are not now followed in the mainstream so the chosen path of their messages' dissemination would seem to lend credence to their philanthopic-stated purpose of 'letting the cat out of the bag.' That said, if the fait is accompli then it isn't a question of if but when the Euro takes over reserve currency status and gold is proxied via the Euro for oil. The IMF/$ faction thens only hand to play would be to trash gold and delay. Since that is exactly what appears to be happening on various levels including the press, the BOE, the IMF, press release of oversupply, and so forth, it seems strongly suggestive that the Euro/BIS has the upper hand as gold plays to a stronger hand in non-US circles and because the US hedge fund industy is largly intertwined within the gold-carry or gold leasing business. Everyone saw the affects that LTCM almost set in motion: paper gold appears to be inextricably interwoven into the IMF/$ faction equity infrastructure with no way out but to settle gold debt in Euros or physical gold.Yet we read that the Euro is in trouble and is loosing credibility. Could it be that the Euro/Bis faction is not ready to make the oil for Euro play and they are just buying time as well. Why that is I am not clear except that as this is a duel of powerful money masters, each offsetting move of the part makes the counter-party rethink near-term objectives while not loosing sight of long term title of world reserve currency holder.My suspicion is that each party needs to move slowly to not shock the system. US bonds must be sold slowly, gold must be purchased deliberately yet stealthly, and relationships cemented more strongly. All of this is pure conjecture except that it fits the A/FOA scenario, in my opinion, accurately.So as the players move about the chess board with us, for the most part, as spectators, we watch the game unfold. The only problem is we only seem to see the US/IMF moves with a curten blocking most of the IMF/Bis board. Finally, since my first point above was that checkmate appears to be looming with victory for the Euro/Bis team or else why did A/FOA come forward with the gameplan early on? So either victory is assured no matter the moves of the $/IMF faction or the game is not lost and we, as Christine said, need to really understand their agenda. I would hate to think it was to encourage physical ownership or dishoarding of gold from the CB's at a higher price into the hands of the smaller guys and gals like the you and me's of the world. No...this would sound too readily of conspiracy. Rather, I vote for Occam's Razor simplistic explanation that given two explanations the simpler is usually correct. They are just nice guys. I chose philanthropy but I do see where Christine can come up with her thoughts too.The fait accompli it is then. We must now wait for the players to make their final moves. Watch the open interest on gold futures and options. Watch the long term bond yield for any approaches to 6.0%. Watch for dishoarding of bonds from Europe or the middle East. Use the IMF/$ press as a contrary indicator or thermometer. The more negative, the more positive, and so on. Richard, Oregon (5/30/99; 13:10:52MDT - Msg ID:6866) Currency Info?? Does anyone have a book of "collectible type" currency?? I received a $20 Federal Reserve Note the other day and it looks soooo. . .different. It is the '1934 Series'. Is it worth any more the $20 I'm wondering?? jinx44 (5/30/99; 13:03:49MDT - Msg ID:6865) La Cosa Nostra(damus) Something for a Sunday.........DID NOSTRADAMUS PREDICT GLOBAL FINANCIAL MELTDOWN? Nostradamus, or Michel de Nostredame, published the first part of his prophecies at Lyon in 1555. The complete set, in the form of a letter to his son, 965 quatrains (verses of 4 lines), one quatrain in Latin, 141 pr鳡ges and 58 sixains (verses of 6 lines), and a letter to Henri, King of France, was available by 1557. The prophecies have never since been out of print. Dr. Max de Fontbrune (father of Jean-Charles de Fontbrune) published a translation and critique of Nostradamus in 1938, which included descriptions of the German advance through Belgium to invade France, Germany's loss of the war, and Hitler's demise. As a result, the book was confiscated and withdrawn from every bookshop in France and Dr Max de Fontbrune was hounded by the Gestapo. The censor stated, in 1940: "... in all versions of this work Dr de Fontbrune's commentary risks provoking severe reaction from the occupying authorities". Nostradamus was born on December 14, 1503. His family had converted from Judaism to Catholicism in 1501 after an edict of Louis XII which forced all Jews to become Catholics or leave Provence. Nostradamus studied medicine at Montpelier, obtaining a baccalauré¡´ and a license to practice medicine by the Bishop of Montpelier in 1525. In 1529 or 30, Nostradamus attained the Doctorate of medicine at Montpelier. For more biographical information, see "The Further Prophecies of Nostradamus", Erika Cheetham, Corgi, 1985, reprinted 1989, ISBN 0 552 12299 8. These following few verses are excerpted from Jean-Charles de Fontbrune's book, Nostradamus 1: Countdown to Apocalypse, Pan Books, 1984. ISBN 0 330 28062 7. Current events make these verses stand out in a remarkable way, I think you will find. The quatrain in Old French is presented first (references such as "CIII, Q27" mean Century III, i.e. the third collection of verses, Quatrain 27), then the English interpretation by de Fontbrune, then my additional comments on possible interpretations linked to current events. These are perhaps best thought of as "what ifs", to reflect on potential outcomes depending on how forthcoming events are managed. Des Roys et princes dresseront simulachres,Augures, creux eslevez aruspices:Corne victime dor饬 et d'azur, d'acresInterpretez seront les exstipices.CIII,Q26 The heads of states and governments will fabricate imitations [of gold: excess of paper money]; prophets will make forecasts devoid of sense [speeches of politicians and economists]. The horn of plenty [consumer society] will fall victim to them and violence will follow peace. The prophecies will be fulfilled. Fiat money- pale imitations of "real money"- abounds; no longer constrained by the requirement for gold backing, the heads of state can print as much money as they wish and fund economies through sales of government bonds. As Alan Greenspan once said, "In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation". Politicians will be forced to make optimistic speeches to talk up the economy, and bull-market proponents will continue to predict stock market recovery as the nascent bear market continues to make lower highs. As economic prosperity decays for many, as in East Asia, things start to turn nasty... Le grand cr餩t, d'or d'argent l'abondanceAveuglera par libide l'honneur:Cogneu sera l'adultè²¥ l'offence,Qui parviendra a son grand deshoneur.CVIII,Q14 The importance of credit and the abundance of gold and silver will blind men greedy for honour. The offence of deception will be known by him who attains his own great dishonour. Mountains of consumer debt, government bond financing, and great apparent prosperity as symbolised by gold and silver (or could this be a reference to the flood of Central Bank gold sales and loans for short selling that discredits gold as a store of value and keeps faith in debt instruments such as the fiat-currency dollar and government bonds as safe havens) supports confidence in personal advancement in the "new economic paradigm" of low inflation, sound economic fundamentals, and bull-market advocacy. Meanwhile, someone is accused of dishonourable acts and deception- now who could that be? Les simulachres d'or et d'argent enflez,Qu'aprè³ le rapt lac au feu furent jettez,Au descouvert estaincts tous et troublez,Au marbre escripts, perscripts interjettez.CVIII, Q28 Images produced in gold and silver, victims of inflation, after the theft of prosperity, will be thrown into the fire in anger; exhausted and disturbed by the public debt paper and coin will be pulped. "Paper gold", which is to say certificated forms of gold trading, such as is carried on at the LBMA, which does not involve taking delivery of physical metal, will be tarnished by loss of confidence. This could possibly be as a result of alleged "fractional reserve gold", a re-run of the 17th century's invention of paper money as certificates against gold deposited with goldsmiths, which began to circulate as currency in its own right and ultimately tempted the goldsmiths into issuing more paper certificates than there existed gold to redeem against them. Ultimately the "Paper gold" will be devalued by investors stampeding to take delivery. Inflation will devalue ordinary paper and coin currency until it may as well be thrown on the fire. The world's greatest debtor nation is the US, as Japanese politicians have been reminding us lately. Inflation and a rise in interest rates would cause the debt service costs to skyrocket, with sovereign debt default at risk, the currency would lose its value and, if hyperinflation ensues, notes and coins would have to be reissued with zeroes lopped off, the previous issues being pulped and melted down. Alan Greenspan has just commanded a second interest rate reduction. How then could there be interest rate rises? When the markets collapse, the "missing inflation" which is hiding in money measures (i.e. M1, M2, M3), bonds, and the stock markets will be released as "real inflation". When the dollar collapses and money flows overseas, interest rates will have to go up again just as they have in parts of Asia and Latin America. Despit de r觮e nunismes descri鳬Et seront peuples esmeus contre leur Roy:Paix, fait nouveau, sainctes loix empir饳RAPIS onc fut en si tresdur arroy.CVI,Q23 Power will be despised because of the currency devaluation and the people will rebel against the head of state. Peace will be proclaimed; through a new fact, sacred laws will be corrupted. Never was Paris in such dire disarray. When markets collapse and the good times end, prosperity falls and unemployment rises, any politician in power falls out of favour, regardless of their merits. This tendency is well documented in various works on long wave economic cycles. Several heads of state have already fallen; e.g. Japan's Hashimoto, Germany's Kohl, Indonesia's Suharto. The new incumbents will claim that the turmoil has ended, but there will be new corruption and overthrow of cherished institutions, principles and traditions, such as has been asserted by some as the depredation of America's constitutional rights. Paris is often mentioned by Nostradamus as the centre of his own country, but also as a symbol for the West, caught up in the global financial turmoil. La grande poche viendra plaindre pleurer,D'avoir esleu: trompez seront en l'aage.Guiè²¥ avec eux ne voudra demeurer,Deceu sera par ceux de son langage.CVII,Q35 They will complain of lost wealth and weep over choosing [responsible politicians] who will make mistakes from time to time. Very few men will want to follow them, deceived as they will be by their speeches. People whose investments have fallen in value will not want to blame impersonal market forces or long wave economic cycles- they will blame the politicians and stockbrokers who cheered on the bull market, before it turned into a bear. The smallest mistake will be siezed upon as evidence against them and on losing office they will remain discredited, their reputations tarnished for ever. Prè³ loing defaut de deux grands luminaires,Qui surviendra entra l'Avril et Mars:O quel cherté¡ Mais deux grands d颯nnairesPar terre et mer secourront toutes pars.CIII,Q5 Shortly after the shortage of the two metals [gold and silver] which will occur between April and March, how expensive life will become! But two heads of state of noble birth will bring help by land and sea. Precious metals- which have thousands of years of history as currency- become so much in demand for investment purposes, as the ultimate 'safe haven', and the debt obligation of nobody, that to all extents and purposes their physical trading ceases. There is currently reported a shortage of bullion coins and prices rising for the popular American 'Saints' in collectors' grades. What could the bit about heads of state be about? Could 'noble birth' be a reference to European traditions; in which case this could be implying aid from Europe to America? Le parc enclin grande calamit鼂R> Par l'Hesperie et Insubre fera,Le feu en nef, peste et captivit鬼BR> Mercure en l'Arc Saturne fenera.CII,Q65 The economy in decline, there will be a great calamity in the West and Italy, war, disaster, and captivity will affect the Church. The time of pillage will ruin Monaco. This verse leads from the financial crisis (economy in decline) to other verses which describe the third world war between the South and the North. Southern Europe is subject to invasion from the South, including the Holy See. Monaco, symbol of financial success, suffers not only from financial decline but from invasion. A "great calamity" could mean many things, such as earthquake, breakdown of law and order, or terrorist attack. We should hope and pray that these prophecies are nothing more than an interesting resonance with current events. Cage Rattler (5/30/99; 12:31:34MDT - Msg ID:6864) The Euro Usul - thanks for that link. As a forex trader, I saw many colleagues get burnt last week when they all thought that 1.05ish was the bottom since it had held for the last couple of weeks. Many of these euro bulls are now in fact rethinking their whole approach. Needless to say, there is more risk on the euro strengthening than for it weakening. Usul (5/30/99; 11:50:57MDT - Msg ID:6863) @Cage Rattler http://www.globalfindata.com/devalue.htm I believe the implication is that forex intervention wouldbe conducted for the euro on continental European marketsor other places, assisted by the fact that forex market volumes are lower because both the US market and the UK market is closed for a public holiday. With lower trading volume, it takes less intervention money to achieve a given percentage rise in a currency. Even so, the markets will not stay closed forever, and forex interventions have in general a sorry history. Free moneyfor those who anticipate the currency movements correctly,such as George Soros did when the British pound devalued and was forced to exit the EMS in 1992; Soros allegedlymaking over $1 billion.Yahoo Euro Centre: http://www.yahoo.co.uk/headlines/full_coverage/emu.html Christine (5/30/99; 11:09:02MDT - Msg ID:6862) Only one more comment Please remember that I did not voluntarily come over here now to try to persuade you guys here of anything. SteveH brought my comments from GE here. I responded only because I did not want to be misconstrued, although that is likely inevitable anyway. I realize that I am philosophically in a different space than many here are, and I so I see no point in arguing about things. It isn't constructive to me if there is not a middle ground. This is not a criticism of me or of others here, IMHO. It is just a philisophical difference. AEL (5/30/99; 11:01:10MDT - Msg ID:6861) bilderbergers to discuss gold manipulation http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000tECBilderberg 'Summit' Agenda Allegedly Leaked www.the-news.net 5-29-99 Note - John Whitley, Editor of the New WorldOrder Intelligence Update, is one of Jeff's regular guest politicalanalysts. You can hear his appearances via our program Archives 24hours a day. The News is today publishing, for the first time anywhere in theworld, reliable indications of the agenda items for this year'smeeting. The items on the agenda should however be treated as"tentative" and "flexible", and confirmation from the group itself isnot possible due to its secretive nature. John K. Whitley, an internationally respected researcher into theBilderberg movement, has sent us what is reliably believed to be theSintra agenda. The items are as credible as they can be at this latestage and, bearing in mind the secrecy of this group, it could havebeen already altered somewhat since the last contact was made with aBilderberger insider. The entire agenda will be printed in theToronto-based New World Order Intelligence Update later this week atwww.inforamp.net/~jwhitley/bild98.htm The first point open for discussion in Sintra will be the review ofthe progress being made in the formation of an Asian bloc under theleadership of Japan. Free trade, a single currency and a politicalunion similar to the European Union is planned for the region. Theinstallation of an American Union is up for discussion, this beingsimilar to the E.U, with a quick review of the scheduled splinteringof Canada. This theme was originally scheduled for discussion in1997, though the proposed break-up of Canada has been reportedlyfacilitated by the presence of a Canadian media magnate and allegedBilderberger. Next on the agenda, and more contemporary, is the Kosovo war. TheBilderberg meeting will include discussions on the formation of agreater Albanian state following "trusteeship" of an "independent"Kosovo, the dismemberment of Yugoslavia (by the return of itsnorthern province, which has 350,000 ethnic Hungarians, to Hungary)as part of a general re-drawing of borders in the region (calculatedto continue regional instability and conflict), and thereconstruction worth billions of dollars of the destroyed regionalinfrastructure at western tax payers' expense. Another item is the ultimate replacement of NATO with a WesternEuropean Army, probably sooner than later due to the bad press NATOhas endured over this current campaign. Efforts will be made to speedup the transformation of the W.E.U into a credible European militaryforce initially relying on American back up. This will completeAmerican military disengagement from Western Europe and leave USforces available for wider global policing, if necessary, with W.E.U.backup in return (first reported on the Bilderberg plan in the 1996Bilderberg report). The key point here is that the Bilderbergers winno matter what happens to NATO - if it survives a little longer, theycan use it as an emergency global police force; if it losescredibility over the Kosovo affair, then they just accelerate itsreplacement in Europe with the W.E.U. which they planned on doinganyway. Bilderbergers are said to be extremely concerned about the globalimpact of, and opportunities offered by, the Y2K problem (which theBilderbergers believe to be far worse than many people haverealised). The alleged presence of Bill Gates at the Sintra meetingmay substantiate this claim. On the possible appointment of a Y2KCzar to oversee global passage through the "Y2K Emergency" (one namerepeatedly coming up as the most likely candidate here is MikhailGorbachev, whose international standing would win him readyacceptance). Other key topics so far are said to be some oil items and financialaffairs (IMF, U.S. economy and stock market, gold marketmanipulation). With the meeting now only a few days away, nothing has appeared inthe Portuguese, European or international media, though the internetis 'alive' with speculation. One international press agency in Lisbonis reported to have said that it has been waiting for theinternational press to request stories or photos, yet so far not onesingle request has been received from anywhere. The wall of silence remains impregnable - almost! PH in LA (5/30/99; 10:56:10MDT - Msg ID:6860) Final comment to Christine Christine:I doubt very much that I would be the only one to take note of the fact that you, yourself, are the only one calling your comments to FOA a "debate" in any sense of the word.Certainly, I have not made much effort to follow closely all of your many comments posted here. Mostly because a close reading of any of them usually revealed an abundance of faulty logic, unprovable suppositions and unclear thinking. Just because FOA did, on occasion, take valuable time to speak to the many inconsistencies rampant in your posts does not mean that you carried out a debate with him. And even less, that you succeeded in disproving his thesis.The fact that you seem to have convinced yourself that this is the case serves as further proof that you did not.This shall stan* as my last comment on this subject as I have no intention of carrying on a running feud with you that could only serve so little purpose. Those who follow FOA's thoughts know that he needs no support or defence. His writings and thoughts rise to the level of philosophy, far outshining anything offered by the whole branch of psychology, irrespective of the ultimate economic outcome that you seem to think will prove or disprove their relevence. Christine (5/30/99; 10:28:56MDT - Msg ID:6859) @PeterAsher--unconventional versus logic Your comments are a valid clarification. I am not totally clear either, but just thinking out loud. Unconventional minds do not take the status quo as a given. However, if unconventional minds do not use hard logic, they will just end up off on perhaps another illogical conclusion. Creative might be a synonym for unconventional. The greatest scientific minds such as Einstein are a combination of a high level of creativity and logic. I don't think logic alone will get you outside of the box, IMHO. However, your point that logic is critical also is very valid. turbohawg (5/30/99; 10:18:13MDT - Msg ID:6858) The K-Wave http://csf.colorado.edu/longwaves/april99/msg03269.html For those who have an interest in economic cycles or cycle theory there is a really good post on the Kondratieff Wave over at LongWaves (go to above link) by cycle analyst Peter Eliades. In a nutshell, the Kondratieff Wave maps out the economic cycle as inflation, disinflation, and deflation over about a 50-60 year period. For me, looking at cycles helps to form a big picture view of what's going on and where we're headed. It doesn't help at all for short term trading.I tried to re-post it here 3 times but got kicked off-line each time due to an AOHELL error. Somebody needs to take that ISP out back and shoot it. If anyone has a recommendation for an alternative that is suitable for the traveler, ie. lots of local access numbers and an 800 # for those really out of the way places, I would appreciate it. Peter Asher (5/30/99; 10:01:11MDT - Msg ID:6857) Minds and logic This morning as I'm reading over the recent posts, I find that the only thing I'm arguing with is something I said myself. [I agree that < disinformation is likely to keep more unconventional minds off track.>] Actually, conventional minds would be more susceptible to disinformation, being more into believing what they are told. Unconventional minds are more likely to challenge that which they hear from others. It would be more accurate to say that some people who believe that conventional wisdom is flawed or false, will jump at accepting unconventional ideas or claims. Therefore while their beliefs may be unconventional, their application of introspection and logic may be quite common. Maybe the concept that minds can be defined as simply conventional or unconventional is itself flawed, and is in itself, disinformation? Cage Rattler (5/30/99; 8:46:45MDT - Msg ID:6856) ECB intervention for the euro How will the ECB intervene if the forex markets are closed? Chicken man (5/30/99; 8:24:09MDT - Msg ID:6855) Usal - Battles of powers Thanks for the tip on the Euro......I was looking for the trap of squeezing the shorts in the PM's due to the same thinking on the differant open/close of the world markets....could these two markets reverse together?....this could get interesting in a couple of turns of the world (48 hrs.)When this starts to come unglued I feel most investors will not understand the extreme price movements that will take place....is this not what FOA/A has been telling us about...?Love reading your posts!.. Chicken man (5/30/99; 7:56:10MDT - Msg ID:6854) Jon....IRA's I see your reasons for investing in securities...I'm probably one of the few Americans who don't have an IRA...if this is suppose to be "good" for me as a taxpayer for MY retirement, what diferrance would it make to anybody what I invested in for my retirement?......Some of this thinking as to the merits of IRA has to go back to the date the gov passed this law so taxpayers would not have to pay tax....it was passed when nobody wanted to "loan" money to the gov.....interest rates were very high and the precious metals were very high too.....so the gov comes up with this scheme to offer the taxpayers a chance to make some money without paying tax till that great day of retirement...kind of a "carrot on the stick" baiting....as usual...the first ones to play the game win.....and the last ones lose....NEVER trust a politician.....they can change the rules....this is why I tell all the IRA salesmen no!....I would not have an IRA ever!....but that is just what I think....each person has to call their own shots in life as one view's it.....right?.....Best of luck.. Usul (5/30/99; 7:35:18MDT - Msg ID:6853) On following the thoughts of others http://www.select-profiles.com/resources.htm It is said that through interviewing alone, "you have only a 14% chance of identifying and retaining a high qualityemployee".Assessing a person through a limited communications channel,such as this forum, is much like a job selection interview.You only have a limited time, the interviewee has thought through their responses, and did you know that 34% of resumes and 73% of job applications contain falsified or embellished information? No wonder interviews are a hitand miss affair. Much of the time your interview reflectspartly your own opinions and experience Know thyself!.In selection interviewing, we are taught to avoid this byusing a structured approach to formulating a series of questions, and adopting techniques that tend towards a more objective result and the ability to use the whole interview rather than making one's mind up in the first 5 minutes, which is a human tendency. Of course, if one begins from a preconceived notion and attempts to assess the other to "fit the facts", one is doomed to failure."The Universe is a mirror. Your actions, thoughts, dreams, fears are projected into the Universe, and you see back what you have put into it. If you look for beauty, you will find it. If you look for anger and hatred, you will find that too""When you point your finger at someone else, three fingers are pointing back at you"Read widely, consider all viewpoints objectively, then comes the difficult part- make your own mind up. Whither gold? Usul (5/30/99; 6:13:34MDT - Msg ID:6852) The Euro loses its lustre... maybe it needs backing! Rumour has it that the European Central Bank is planning amassive intervention on the currency markets tomorrow...when London's huge forex market is closed.Possibly $5 billion has already been spent to prop up the euro, with European governments said to have been sellingshort-dated US Treasuries in the intervention.City traders have nicknamed the euro the 'toilet currency'because it was going down the pan.Last week the euro fell to a record low of $1.044, having lost 12 percent of its value since its launch on Jan 1st.The proportion of British exporters in favour of joiningthe euro system is down from 71 percent to 66 percent in the last 3 months. Jon (5/30/99; 5:23:37MDT - Msg ID:6851) Canamami msg#6846; Chicken Man msg#6831 Basic strategy for blackjack is founded on computer studies of many millions of hands dealt and determination of probabilities. It is indeed sound. This has given rise to card counting strategies that serve to provide a very lucrative life style to some- one of whom I know extremely well.Re:msg.6831In U.S. IRA's and other tax-exempt plans do not allow for physical accumulation of precious metals.It has to be securities. Got it??? Peter Asher (5/30/99; 4:45:47MDT - Msg ID:6850) Current controversy At the risk of swimming in turbulent waters, I would like to add my personal beliefs and opinions to the fray. (I think we have to acknowledge that this current debate is a bit contentious.)Thoughts, opinions, beliefs and conclusions result from many influences -- education, religion, intelligence, communication with others, and the interweaving of them all on the loom of logic. Logic is, after all, the alignment of data. In the end though, we can only sate our viewpoints as best we can and hope that others will duplicate them. Even if they don't we still know what we know. I agree that < disinformation is likely to keep more unconventional minds off track.> However, I submit that the following is not possible.<I had to clarify in MY MIND what HIS TRUE KNOWLEDGE AND PURPOSES were.>Now, the writer of that statement may truly believe it is possible to figure out what other people think. She has stated her profession and that profession certainly operates on that premise. There are claims that many of these practitioners are in the service of a conspiracy for the purpose of controlling the minds of the population of the planet (New World Order), for drug company profits, and for massive amounts of federal funds to do research for a science that is, in fact, a belief system. It is fascinating that the word "psyche," which means "spirit," has been appropriated in a title by those who deny spiritual existence. It is intriguing that the most threatening conspiracy on Earth is being waged by the profession practiced by the poster who is the leading conspiracy advocate among us.Now, a person does not necessarily take part in or believe in, and may not even be aware of this (alleged) conspiracy, just because they are in that field. Also, I myself may be a conspiracy nut for believing or supposing it to be true. I brought this up in Post# 1863, 1/17- PM, and I am certainly opinionated about it. ---- Nevertheless, I would not want a government run by people who thought they could satisfactorily clarify in 'their' mind what 'my' true knowledge and purposes were. Peter Asher (5/30/99; 4:05:31MDT - Msg ID:6849) Phone line trouble---test The last week has seen a worsening deterioration of our local lines electronic 'cleanliness". It was, at first, 1PM to 6 PM, then later and later, and tonight still fouled up.Waiting for Sprint to hopefully fix it SOON!! To be continued: Peter Asher (5/30/99; 1:40:15MDT - Msg ID:6848) Current controversy The days are getting very long in the pacific northwest. By the time I come in and even assimilate the posts of the day, it is already tomorrow in Colorado. So, everything in this post is in response to 'yesterday's' conversations.First of all I would like to address the subject of copyright. When I sign off a post with a copyright claim my intention is to secure 'credit' for the writing. I would only wish that anyone forwarding my work elsewhere, would say who wrote it and where. That is of course as regards the Internet. If someone where publishing hard copy for sale, I would expect to be contacted for permission. In my opinion this would be the ideal standard for intellectual property rights on the WWW..Now at the risk of swimming in turbulent waters, I would like to add my personal beliefs and opinions to the fray. (I think we have to acknowledge that this current debate is a bit contentious.)Thoughts, opinions, ùv ' úM GET /businesùuàpunity/legis/Texas/TexasMenu.html HTTP/1.0Host: www2.empunity.comFrom: support@estreet.comUser-Agent: Phantom/2.1 Christine (5/30/99; 0:41:30MDT - Msg ID:6847) @PHinLA The reasons for my conclusions are multiple and resulted from long debate with FOA. I did not communicate this clearly in my most recent post, but what I just posted was only one of many reasons I reached the conclusion I did. Click Here to view yesterday's discussion.
Permission to reprint is hereby granted where the USAGOLD name is cited along with our web address, mailing address and phone number. For electronic reproductions, citing the post heading and the http://www.usagold.com/cpmforum/ website address as the source is sufficient.