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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 12/29/2003
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

(Yesterday's Discussion.)

Waverider (12/29/03; 23:03:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 114298)
Lady Liberty
http://www.usagold.com/DailyQuotes.html
I have attached the link for todays Daily Market Report (DMR) by Black Blade. He has repeatedly recommended that we fully prepare for difficult times ahead by getting (and staying) out of debt, ensuring we have portfolio insurance (physical Gold), and preparing necessities for daily living such as a one year supply of food, water, cash, etc. In other words, prepare/practice being totally self-sufficient in case TSHTF, or for natural disasters, etc. I don't believe there are specific links as per your request, but you will hear this message on occasion in the DMR. Cheers,
Waverider

Waverider (12/29/03; 22:33:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 114297)
Goldendome
http://stockcharts.com/def/servlet/Favorites.CServlet?obj=ID667551&cmd=show[s21672208]&disp=O
"When was the last time that the Gold/silver ratio was under 70 ?? I have no idea..."

Waverider: Goldendome - scroll down to chart 5.1 at the attached link and you will find a log chart of the Gold:Silver ratio going back to 1981. Cheers!

Aristotle (12/29/03; 21:59:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 114296)
Assorted
Liberty Head:
The very fact that you're posting here is as good an indication as any that your financial fate is probably in more capable hands than could be said of Random Joe.

Goldendome:
I won't belabor the point, but don't be surprised when time bears this out -- silver isn't so much poor man's Gold as it is rich man's copper.

Days passing into history continue to bear out that the niche atop the wealth hit parade tolerates the residency of one alone, and that one, we are shown, is Gold.

Study bimetalism... study Gresham's law... no need to take me at my word. You, too, will discover this in probably less total time than I did.

To what end?

Methinks Nature abhors a redundancy with the same vigor as she abhors a vacuum.

Meaning...

Gold. Get you some. --- Aristotle

Lady Liberty (12/29/03; 21:54:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 114295)
Msg # of BB's reference to ready water source in future?
Hi-
Just joined forum. Saw brief reference to Black Beard's post about ensuring a ready water supply in future. Could someone supply message # of that? TIA

Liberty Head (12/29/03; 21:38:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 114294)
a nation of one, Aristotle

I quite agree with you about the nature of the 401k beast. I do get the impression that you may have made some false assumptions about the way I think because I happen to have a 401k.
Many folks, like myself, work for companies that automatically place funds in a 401k plan for their employees. This takes place regardless of our personal view of the stock market, gold or whatever. Dollar for dollar matching of contributions is a strong incentive, as well.
Is it risky?
Crossing the street is risky, but I would not assume that anyone who crosses a street is ignorant of the risk.
I would rather assume they know what they are doing, even if I don't.

Best Wishes


Goldendome (12/29/03; 20:36:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 114293)
Gold/Silver ratio approaches 70: Going down.


Gold/silver ratio Dec.19-----------71.701 to 1
Gold/silver ratio Dec.29---------- 70.51------Down 1.19

Gold/silver ratio end of May 2003, pick a date ----About 80 to 1.

When was the last time that the Gold/silver ratio was under 70 ?? I have no idea...But I think the next time under 70 to 1, may be very soon now!

This is just a little exercise, that I have been keeping an eye on for the past several months. And before you all start to send me your hate mail about how I'm trying to disrespect Gold: Give it up!! I own both, and thus have two dogs in the same fight--much more heavily favored in Gold side, I should add!!

We all know the numbers game: Small gains added to small numbers make for a larger percentage gain, than do larger numbers added to much larger numbers. So--my point is, that the gains percentage wise over the past 6 months in Silver, have been larger than the percentage gains in Gold.

Gold is the tug, pulling the Silver dingy, but as many have remarked-- even here, the Gold/Silver ratio seems to have gone way out of wack in the twentieth century plus, and perhaps (as gold is priced out of reach to small investors) that pendulum may be swinging back in the direction of Silver, as Silver assumes the role once again as, "the poor man's gold."



Goldilox (12/29/03; 20:06:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 114292)
Spot - the global pooch!!
Interesting how Spot was driven down to $412 at the NY close and jumped almost immediately to open again in Sydney back up over $414.

They can't keep a good dog down!

Goldilox (12/29/03; 19:22:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 114291)
self-fulfilling prophesies
@ mikal

I don't want to go too far into this issue, but it appears to me that too many people have capitulated to ancient prophesies of doom (conjured up by all manner of prophetics and psychotics - not to be confused with genuinely spiritual folk who might also subscribe to any particular religion) and given up trying to help make the world a better place for their progeny.

Their theory can often be summed up as "Oh well, it's all gonna end soon, so I better get mine!", or worse, "Kill them all, and let GOD sort them out."

IMHO, before civilization can be resume a healthier course, this fatalistic attitude must morph into "I know it can get better, and I want to be part of the effort."

Fully aware that posters here bring many varying individual agendas (a good thing, IMO), I am much encouraged by those who espouse things like a GOLD STANDARD and FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY to improve the body politic. Belief structures are a good thing, but less useful without appropriate actions. What was Issac's response to dried up water supplies? "Pick up the shovel, and dig another well."

Ok no more political soap box for me. I've been trying to stay on Admin's good side.

R Powell (12/29/03; 18:49:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 114290)
Clink and Caradoc // silver
Clink, from (114252), logarithmic = rate of increase (or decrease). Simply stated so that now I finally understand. Thanks!

Caradoc, from (114253), identifying "Disiderata" as the source of the needlepoint work my mom copied years ago onto a pillowcase. She's long gone now but I have her work still and now know its name. Thank you indeed!

Off now to look for any news of silver other than the usual "moved with the POG" or "safe haven from the declining dollar". Yah, we know, and some trader will say a small updraft caught open "buy" orders or the market released some pent-up energy but...is there nothing more substantial? Hey, maybe there isn't. Maybe declining dollar says it all. Everything else I watch has changing supply and demand numbers, published weekly with a myriad (haven't used that word in a while) of constantly changing price factors that can be monitored. I really believe silver trades in a total supply and demand information vacuum. Imagine, for a moment, what a physical shortage would do to this market. It would look like a reverse of the live cattle chart. There are fortunes being exchanged in the meat markets this week.
Any news of the metal of the moon?
Rich

Goldilox (12/29/03; 18:43:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 114289)
Policy Decisions
@ Mikal

My only point is that the foremost policy driver for any politician in a campaign year is the campaign itself. I made no mention of fixing any social or fiscal ills, but rather that appearances are critical to reelection. The masses will get as rosey a picture as possible to buy their ill informed vote.

As to your point - I am not in any disagreement, but then, I am not running for office.

mikal (12/29/03; 18:33:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 114288)
@Goldilox
Re: Post November elections as the agent of the alleged suspension of economic animation in 2004.

I understand how it appears to many, including yourself, to be a major reason for policy decisions. Politics is newsprint and many citizen's hope for resolution of issues and promised improvements to their lives. Emotional triggers that two parties can exploit to marginalize real issues and induce devotion and loyalty, personality obsession and worship as much as hatred, fanaticism and irrational bigotry and intolerance.

But can geopolitics, equities, bonds, currencies, houdini accounting, derivative personal and corporate debt, state and federal debt, gold and so on, be transported into this other universe wholly controlled by seemingly all-powerful Republicans? Democrats? IMF? FED? UN?
Could it become a self-fulfilling prophecy once the masters coaxed the world's market movers to follow the mesmerized sheeples through some intergalactic financial wormhole?
I don't buy it, not even if "9/11- The Sequel" should play and replay on every big screen.
Regards.

Druid (12/29/03; 18:32:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 114287)
Europe Considers Controls, But Dollar Crisis Is Systemic
http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2003/3050euro_vs_dollar.html

"A small wonder occurred on the foreign exchange markets on Tuesday, Dec. 9. On all eight of the previous trading days in succession, the U.S. dollar had fallen to new historic lows against the euro. Against currencies with longer histories like the British pound, the dollar had sunk at the same time to its lowest level in 11 years. But then on the 9th, the dollar's plunge was temporarily halted. Had a prospect for the continued financing of the gigantic foreign indebtedness of the United States suddenly come to light? Not at all. The pause for breath in the dollar's descent was much more the result of a special cause: renewed, massive interventions by the Bank of Japan to force the currency markets—in blatant opposition to the liberal economic dogma of free "floating" exchange rates.

During the course of 2003, the Bank of Japan has spent, by its own reports, an astonishing 17.8 trillion yen (roughly the equivalent of $165 billion) in such interventions. It has done this in the thus-far vain hope of braking the rise of the yen against the dollar, which is damaging Japan's exports. The interventions take place on orders of the government; the central bank is only their executive organ. In order to generate the financial means required for this enormous purchasing of dollar paper, the government of Japan has had to increase its issue of its own debt, during its current legislative session, to a total of 79 trillion yen, or $731 billion.

But this barricade could already be broken down within the next week. Therefore on Dec. 11, the Japanese Finance Ministry set the prospect of an upper level of debt issuance for the full year, including this exchange market intervention, of a round 100 trillion yen—$926 billion! If necessary, said Ministry official Hiroshi Watanabe, it would be possible to adopt retroactively an emergency provision and let the Bank of Japan issue foreign debt directly."

Druid: An interesting read from an interesting perspective. Enjoy.

Druid: Lady Waiverider, you're quite welcome and thank you for providing the other link. Now I have two pretty good databases to select from which I can use to torture myself with. Ten Bears, excellent analysis concerning tax revenues and low interest payments. Politically speaking there is no way in hell they want rates high because that will further add fuel to a fire that is already way out of control.



Goldilox (12/29/03; 17:59:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 114286)
Gasoline (and other) prices
@ Basil, et al . . .

It should not be news to anyone here that TPTB want the rosy picture to remain so as close to November as possible. Containment is the watchword in Warshington. As no plan is ever executed flawlessly, take advantage while you can.

As for post-November, see BB's advice. get gold, food, water, and OUT of debt.

Basil (12/29/03; 17:30:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 114285)
Gasoline Prices
With crude holding well above $32 a bbl for awhile (not a spike)--why are gasoline prices at the pump staying relatively low??
Last two tanks in Pueblo at under $1.32 per gallon.
What gives?

I sense PTB twisting arms so enabling JoeSP to happily guzzle his Caddy SUV down I-25 at 95mph for awhile longer.

How long will total fed BS re the great economy,low inflation,great war progress,happy forever after continue?

Cytek (12/29/03; 16:10:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 114284)
It looked like the Pumps were on full.

Gold/silver up.

Market up.

Interest rates up.

Go figure.




Aristotle (12/29/03; 14:26:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 114283)
A Nation of One's note to Liberty Head
Great message!!

G. Gys. --- Ari

a nation of one (12/29/03; 14:13:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 114282)
To Liberty Head (12/28/03; 14:11:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 114242)

Good enough. And of course everyone is entitled to -and is an object of- his own view.

But maybe it would be good if you would look into exactly what the interests are, of those who created the government-encouraged retirement investment plans.

I can't help seeing them as means by which those in power have enhanced their ability to influence what a statistically significant portion of the public do with their money. If someone makes you pay a penalty for moving your own money from one place to another, how can that be in your best interest? Just because you avoid paying a few dollars in taxes or penalties? I don't think so. And what about the effects it has on your own free will? That's more important, ultimately. And harder to repair too. And how about when some entity determines when you may remove your wealth from those accounts? If it makes you leave it there so long that it evaporates, do you think that is a coincidence? Whose interests are such actions in? Yours? No. If millions of citizens all keep their money in stocks, long after they otherwise would, on account of such incentives, whose interest is that in? Not theirs. I would ask myself the following question, not rhetorically, but as a question that has a real answer that needs to be understood: Do I really believe that it is just a coincidence that the way I have to manage my money -in order to comply with the rules- causes me to want to leave my investments in places where my wealth diminishes?

There is no substitute for gold, in hand, in pocket, in a safe place, and not under the supervision, or advisement, of the grocery store owner down the street, the opera singer on the fourth floor, or the guy my neighbors elected to congress.

If this makes you mad, I agree that you have a good reason to be angry. But I don't agree that I am the cause of it.


R Powell (12/29/03; 14:08:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 114281)
BIS news in pdf form


1 new document(s) found since 23.12.2003:

1. Philipp Hildebrand: The Swiss National Bank?s view of international financial markets against the background of trends in the United States (Central Bank Articles and Speeches) (29.12.2003 10:23)
Introductory remarks by Philipp Hildebrand, Member of the Governing Board of the Swiss National Bank, at the end-of-year media news conference, Zurich, 12 December 2003.
http://www.bis.org/review/r031223c.pdf (PDF, 91824 bytes)



koala bear (12/29/03; 13:53:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 114280)
How to get a Chinese haircut

Goldbugs the world over have enthusiastically retold the fact that China has opened the way for its citizens to buy gold. This means that potentially millions of Chinese investors could buy physical gold and make the price skyrocket [I wish]. But Chinese investors could soon learn what their South African counterparts already know; buying gold in an undervalued currency results in a loss, OUCH! Hopefully for the South African and Chinese this effect [haircut] wont last too long.


Federal_Reserves (12/29/03; 12:25:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 114278)
FED pumping again
http://www.bullandbearwise.com/FOMOOutChart.asp
Stocks soar!

Why ask why?


Pizz (12/29/03; 12:13:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 114277)
Ok, so I can't type fast and spelling ain't my strong suit. . .
but to confuse me with Dan? He's the good lookin' one - right?

Pizz

USAGOLD Daily Market Report (12/29/03; 12:10:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 114276)
Page Update!
http://www.usagold.com/DailyQuotes.html
The Afternoon Gold Report by Jon H. Warner has been updated.

If you are considering investments in gold we invite you to request our free introductory information packet detailing the products and services offered by USAGOLD ~ Centennial Precious Metals. We welcome your inquiry and look forward to working with you.

If the DMR should appear a little strange today it is most likely that I am on a "foreign" computer and stranded in Utah as a blizzard hit Christmas day and blowing wind will likely keep me marooned here for the next couple of days.

Otherwise a good day for gold as the yellow pushed higher on a weaker US dollar as expected. Some precious metals analysts are simply crying in their beer on this one after having made solid predictions of a large scale gold "sell off" as the year closes. However, the huge current account and budget deficits will keep any "strong dollar policy" shut down and the door open for higher PM prices.

BTW, Gandy will be glad to hear that I saw "Lord Of The Rings" the other night.

Jon H. Warner

Mr Gresham (12/29/03; 12:10:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 114275)
Hi Yo Silver, Away!
http://members.tripod.com/~ClaytonMoore/lonergtv.wav
A fiery horse with the speed of light, a cloud of dust, and a hearty "Hi Yo, Silver"!

Return with us now to those thrilling days of yesteryear...


(Methinks, hmmm, maybe if the Wizard of Oz was a coded story about gold, then the LR...)

Tranquility Base (12/29/03; 12:05:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 114274)
Pizz's identity revealed
Pizz. You've let your identity out. You are Dan Quayle! Potatoe?
Tranquility base here. Just paying attention.

Aristotle (12/29/03; 12:00:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 114273)
Simply Me, I'm especially struck by two comments from the reporter in his time machine
http://www.business-standard.com/smart/story.asp?Menu=29&story=30822
My hat's off to Sangita Shah. It was a clever article, and I'm glad at the way it set up a point and counterpoint on a very important issue.

Point:

"The launch of trading in gold futures and options around 2003-04 gave a further fillip to India's interest in gold with retail investors dematerialising up to 50 per cent of their physical holdings of the metal."

Alas! Read that selection as many times as needed to fully absorb its meaning. Ruminate especially on the meaning of *dematerialising*. That, my friends, was a BRILLIANT choice of words.

So why, you might ask, am I crying "alas!" in one breath while singing the praises of this brilliant sentence in the next breath? Because it shows us again so clearly how Gold has been and can continue to be marginalized out of pocket; specifically as a feeble sort of equivalent contract, thus reduced by mankind to an ethereal element of law enforcement rather than the imutable subtance of wealth it is if used in its most natural state. Alas, I say again! Can you not see how the "dematerialising" of tangible wealth is what has blurred the lines between property and money, and has opened to door to so many national abuses and the appropriation of naive people's savings through inflation and monetary depreciation?

Anyone who continues to insist that Gold is money had better think long and hard about the long-term effect of the "dematerialising" process.

And now the article's happy Counterpoint:

"However, the decisive impact came from the decision of most monetary authorities to reinstate the importance of gold in their official reserves. [...] Despite some murmurs from economists [surely employed by the "bullion bankers" pursuing dematerialisation schemes] about the inefficiencies involved in holding gold, most central bankers appear to have decided that prudence is the better part of valour."

Amen. Nothing more to add. Look to Europe as an example of a dematerialized monetary system (euro) seeking harmony with a Gold market in a full material form. A glorious thing to behold, and I wish them Godspeed.

Gold. Get you some. --- Aristotle

Pizz (12/29/03; 11:50:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 114272)
Hot Dollars
Here's a golden thought for all, or maybe a silvery thought, since that seems to be the action today. . .(smiling Rich?)

When you watch what the markets are saying, it would appear that some think that holding and buying US stocks just may be better than the US dollar. Hmmm. . .

It would also appear that many have used dollars to buy commodities. . . but then someone else is holding the dollars, and on and on. (Say buddy, would you happen to have a few Euros laying around instead of this "funny money"?) Kind of like a hot potatoe. And as hundreds of billions (some may say trillions) of hot dollars bounce around, hmmm. . .a little volitility coming our way???

Makes you wonder where the dollar home of last resort may be. My wife's Barbi Doll collection may not be such a bad investment after all. . . .

Pizz



Great Albino Bat (12/29/03; 11:19:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 114271)
http://www.ex.ac.uk/~RDavies/arian/amser/chrono15.html

The GAB found this at a neighboring site.

"A History of Money - From Ancient Times to the Present Day"

By Glyn Davies, U. of Wales Press, 1996

At the site you will find a synopsis of the contents in three sections. This page is 1921-1938.

Well worth reading and keeping for reference.

The GAB

Simply Me (12/29/03; 09:42:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 114270)
Latest article linked on News and Views page
http://www.usagold.com/AMK/MK-gold.html
Top headline: Gold rivals dollar as global currency

If you click on the (more) link at the end of the top headline, you read an article that appears to be about the present. But then, about halfway down the page is this....

<snip>
Though the Washington agreement on gold did indeed get renewed in September 2004 with minor changes, it died an unsung death five years later when various central banks decided to keep their gold intact - and add to it if possible.
<unsnip>

...which talks about the future in present tense.
???????

Did somebody dial Miss Cleo?
Simply




USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc. (12/29/03; 09:24:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 114269)
An Invitation to Prospective Clients . . . . Enter the market with grace and confidence.
http://www.usagold.com/Order_Form.html





MK (12/29/03; 09:09:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 114268)
News & Views
http://www.usagold.com/AMK/MK-gold.html
Breaking News!

You are invited to visit now, often. Updated regularly. Stay abreast the gold market via News & Views, this forum and Jon Warner's Afternoon Gold Market Reports.

This is the website where serious gold investors congregate and keep in touch with the market. Please bookmark this page.

CoBra(too) (12/29/03; 09:03:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 114267)
@TIH - Translation
Euro klettert erstmals über 1,25 Dollar-Marke
In case your German isn't as good as TIH's, may I offer a brief translation from the Handelsblatt snippet -

'Bei ruhigem Handel hat der Euro zum Dollar am Montagmittag ein neues Allzeithoch und erstmals mehr als 1,25 Dollar erreicht. In der Spitze notierte die europäische Gemeinschaftswährung auf einem Stand von 1,2511 Dollar und erreichte damit ihren höchsten Stand seit Einführung an den Finanzmärkten im Januar 1999. Marktteilnehmer sehen weiteres Aufwärtspotenzial.'

Translation:

"Euro climbs over 1.25 dollars - first time -ever-!
In quiet trading the € has reached an all-time high of over 1.25 against the dollar at Monday noon. At its peak the European Union's currency traded at 1.2511 and reached its new all time high since its introduction on the financial markets in January of 1999. Market perticipants envision further potential."

Thanks - cb2



The Invisible Hand (12/29/03; 07:23:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 114266)
1.25 with more upward potential
http://www.handelsblatt.com
SNIP:
Euro klettert erstmals über 1,25 Dollar-Marke
Bei ruhigem Handel hat der Euro zum Dollar am Montagmittag ein neues Allzeithoch und erstmals mehr als 1,25 Dollar erreicht. In der Spitze notierte die europäische Gemeinschaftswährung auf einem Stand von 1,2511 Dollar und erreichte damit ihren höchsten Stand seit Einführung an den Finanzmärkten im Januar 1999. Marktteilnehmer sehen weiteres Aufwärtspotenzial.



krash (12/29/03; 07:22:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 114265)
China may reconsider yuan peg, analysts say
http://www.iht.com/articles/123039.html
Excerpt from the IHT Dec. 29 (originally from Bloomberg):

China, which this year has resisted international pressure to revalue its currency, may agree to bury the yuan's decade-old peg to the dollar in 2004 as it looks for ways to cool economic growth and ward off inflation, investors and analysts say.

In recent months, China has been buying the U.S. currency in international markets in order to maintain a fixed exchange rate of around 8.28 yuan per dollar, which was set in 1994. The effort, which puts more money into circulation in China, threatens to exacerbate inflation, which the government has said accelerated to a rate 3 percent in November, the fastest in six and a half years..........

comment -- if this doesn't lower the US$ even further and boost the price of gold in US$s, i don't know what will...

Tate (12/29/03; 07:19:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 114264)
Gold is money - Gold is the only universal currency
****Gold is money - Gold is the only universal currency. Always has been - always will be. To think otherwise is be the gullible and naive victim of the illusions created by the politicians.****
I may add: politicians installed by world banking cartel.
Since no currency is directly linked to gold or any other tangible asset it is fraud. No paper currency represents definable amount of labor needed to produce it. They are all out of thin air product. Toilet paper in fact is more valuable, since it serves definite purpose and does not loose its value in unused form. Smile.
Happy New Year.



Caradoc (12/29/03; 00:27:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 114263)
Goldilox: "Oceanfront..."
Or villa with a view of the Mediterranean...

Caradoc

PS: Spot just jumped to 413.10 and back to 413. Frisky rascal, that Spot. I'll enjoy his antics tomorrow but it's getting late here.

Goldilox (12/29/03; 00:06:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 114262)
Acreage
@ Caradoc

OCEAN FRONT Acreage, at that!

Caradoc (12/29/03; 00:03:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 114261)
Goldilocks: "Eagles for a car?"
Yes, 4 or 5 eagles would pay for a decent new car. But I'm cheap so I'd rather pay 3 Eagles for a low-mileage used vehicle. When you start talking entire rolls of new Eagles you'd better be looking at acreage, not automobiles.

Caradoc



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