Harvest Time
Whatever it is that you may have sown,
we'll give you the power to reap GOLD.
ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 7/29/2002
All times are U.S. Mountain Time
(Yesterday's Discussion.)
YGM
(07/29/02; 23:41:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 81826)
Black Blade...
Your (sensible & prudent) Food storage thread for uncertain times...
If I may just add a few simple comments...First if one needs the survival food in the first place things probably could take more than a year to get even halfways back on track as far as food goes in markets...I might suggest to folks that for a little more effort than just tinned foods and rotation, which I also do from my basement pantry, they should consider acquiring a Vacuum Sealing unit ($200-300.00 Can)...Flour and other staples like Wheat (you can live healthy with NOTHING ELSE other than Wheat if need be)Sugar and ALL dried foodstuffs will deteriorate in a few months time. With a Vacuum sealer you can keep mason jars full of anything from Dried Foods to Bullets to Vegetable Seeds indefinately...Seeds usually lose mortality over one year...Vacuum sealed they last forever...If one can conceal a root-cellar under the Cabin or House or on the property then you have an ideal hidey hole and a place for summer crop storage as well as all else...Farmers still keep root cellars and even some with ice houses and nobody says they're paranoid, just good old fashioned homesteader mentality...(I seem to remember you saying you had a Mtn Retreat]...Most preparedness comes cheaply, but few dedicate the time or thought to REAL potentials in this age of complacency....YGM
Black Blade
(07/29/02; 23:04:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 81825)
Hard times drive more Japanese to steal food
http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/asia/story/0,1870,134091,00.html?
One way of measuring the current depth of the slump in Japan's fortunes is to take a peek inside a shoplifter's bag
Snippit:
TOKYO - Japan's new breed of shoplifter steals food rather than branded goods these days in a sad reflection of the desperate plight of those caught long-term in the nation's economic crunch. An increasing number of Japanese workers and their dependants have resorted to shoplifting after relatively long spells of unemployment. They are shifting away from department stores where branded goods used to be their aim and turning instead to supermarkets and grocery and convenience stores, where food-related items abound. The profile of a typical shoplifter has changed too - from that of a young person stealing either for thrills or because they could not afford branded goods, to someone who is in dire economic need - hungry, in a word.
A 52-year-old woman, who was caught after slipping packets of frozen beef and chicken into her backpack, told the owner: 'My husband lost his job more than a year ago and I have not been able to afford anything nice to eat for a long time.'
Among the others were two elderly people who said their pensions were too meagre; a homeless man who said he had gone hungry for days, and two teenage brothers who said their parents were out looking for jobs and had left them without food.
Black Blade: In a word – "grim". As always one point that I stress is that everyone have several months to maybe a year's worth of food and basic necessities stored up for times like these. It is easy and cheap to buy the necessities during the bad times and rotate with fresh inventory as the goods are used. The situation in Argentina (the bread basket of South America) is even worse. They are eating pets, rats, toads, and sifting through garbage at landfills.
Black Blade
(07/29/02; 22:33:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 81824)
Monkey See Monkey Do In Asia
http://quote.yahoo.com/m2?u
Asian markets are roaring higher on the back of the US markets. Looks like the Nikkei and Hang Seng could blow past 10,000.
- Black Blade
Black Blade
(07/29/02; 22:23:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 81823)
Nasdaq says it will delist WorldCom stock Tuesday
http://www.forbes.com/technology/newswire/2002/07/29/rtr679672.html
Snippit:
WorldCom said it expects its securities to trade outside of mainstream U.S. stock markets on what is known as the "pink sheet" listings, which have minimal financial regulatory requirements. Nasdaq said it made its ruling after WorldCom failed to comply with the market's requirement that it remain current in its periodic filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission. In addition, Nasdaq said its decision was based upon concerns relating to the company's bankruptcy proceedings.
Black Blade: This dead cat didn't bounce very high. Although it did go from a low of 6 cents to a current 29 cents. Who the hell is buying it? The creditors and bond holders are first in line and this turkey isn't going to emerge from bankruptcy either.
sector
(07/29/02; 22:16:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 81822)
Guarantees cap fuels Japan funds outflow
http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1027953257129&p=1012571727192
By Michiyo Nakamoto in Tokyo
Published: July 29 2002 18:40 | Last Updated: July 29 2002 20:39
Japanese banks' time deposit accounts suffered a huge outflow of funds after the government imposed a cap on guarantees in April, fuelling fears of a further financial crisis when guarantees are further limited next April.
According to figures published by the Bank of Japan, depositors shifted nearly Y42,000bn ($353bn, €358bn, £226bn) out of time deposit accounts in the year to May, one month after a Y10m cap was imposed on government guarantees, according to figures published by the Bank of Japan.
Until April, the government offered 100 per cent protection on deposits at Japanese banks; from April next year the government will cap its guarantees on ordinary bank deposits.
Some analysts have warned of a general lack of understanding of the new rules, and consequently "there could be a panic reaction", according to Katsuhito Sasajima, banking analyst at UBS Warburg in Tokyo.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Recall that this $353 Billion outflow is only half of the story as April 2003 will surely bring the other $353 Billion to safer investments for the Japanese elders. It is heartening to see almost ALL of these soon to be totally uninsured time deposits are flying to safer heavens. A clear vote of no confidence in the Japanese government.
Just where these deposits are going is an important question. Yen, dollars, euros, insurance company annuities? Certainly not the stock market. Somewhere else?
Only 17% of the $600 Billion uninsured pool [April 2003] of these former time deposits represents over 10,000 tonnes of gold – enough to drain away the last of the US manipulation reserve stocks plus suck dry the remains of the IMF.
The rock solid facts about our current gold bug status are the un-sustainability of a manipulated market due to the sales of an exhaustible resource coupled with a geometrically expanding knowledge base about the gold market and wider corruptions.
As the elderly Japanese move their savings to safety they remain a key player in the unfolding chaos that looms ahead. This environment will get increasingly more volatile as more and more players, not necessarily speculators, learn of the inherent opportunities.
Gold can be driven up by anyone with dollars...up towards financial Armageddon.
Gold Hill
(07/29/02; 22:10:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 81821)
re pOST 81810
Cavan Man
Post 81810
Well said, I'm beginning to learn that lesson.
misetich
(07/29/02; 21:19:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 81820)
Bush, Cheney: Cheshire cats of reform -As private citizens, did they do what they now disavow?
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/a/2002/07/28/MN32571.DTL
Snip:
The irony, of course, is that the corporate-reform bill President Bush will sign into law this week would have made his own actions as a businessman a criminal offense.
This is but the latest "Alice in Wonderland" aspect of the scandals rocking the business world, which have made the stock market an earthquake zone of late and have caused millions of people to rethink their retirement plans.
Bush, who is now set to begin a monthlong vacation -- we could all use one at this point -- has cast himself as cheerleader-in-chief for overhauling corporate conduct.
But a pungent whiff of misbehavior lingers as the president and Vice President Dick Cheney keep trying to distance themselves from their own track records as executives.
And more than a few observers are asking, not unfairly, whether genuine reform is possible when it is being spearheaded by two men so unwilling to address their own corporate baggage.
"There's a certain through-the-looking-glass quality to this," said Tom Schlesinger, executive director of the Financial Markets Center, a Virginia research facility.
"But in a perverse way, this could have the effect of pushing the White House to overcompensate on reform for perceived or real disadvantages in this area," he said.
That remains to be seen. For the moment, investors, voters and other interested parties have little choice but to sit back and watch the spectacle unfold.
Bush calls his tenure about a decade ago as a director of Harken Energy "ancient history." He has also repeatedly insisted that he did nothing wrong and that investigations into alleged wrongdoing left him fully vindicated.
Not exactly. Although the president has consistently refused to release documents that support his claims, papers that have slipped out via Freedom of Information Act requests appear to contradict Bush's recollections of what actually transpired.
For example, Bush maintains that he had little or nothing to do with a controversial 1989 deal in which Harken insiders borrowed money from the company to purchase a subsidiary.
The Securities and Exchange Commission ruled that the transaction was in fact nothing more than an attempt by the company to hide $10 million in losses and ordered Harken to restate its earnings for the year.
Now it appears that Bush, who sat on the board's audit committee at the time, was more deeply involved than previously acknowledged.
On June 15, 1989 -- just two weeks before the dubious sale -- Harken's chief executive, Mikel Faulkner, wrote to Bush praising him for his "intuitive analysis" of Harken's business matters.
"I consider the role you play at Harken Energy Corporation to be a very meaningful and significant role and look forward to a continuing relationship, " Faulkner wrote.
The confidential document was obtained by the Center for Public Integrity, a Washington think tank, and posted online for the first time Thursday.
Bush also has declared that he never would have proceeded with an almost $850,000 sale of Harken stock on June 22, 1990, if he had known the company would soon thereafter report a $23 million loss, causing its share price to plummet.
Bush was investigated by the SEC for possible insider trading but no charges were filed.
SEC'S TIES TO BUSH
Bush himself was never interviewed during the probe, which was overseen by then-SEC Chairman Richard Breeden, an appointee of Bush's father and former White House lawyer. The SEC's general counsel at the time was James Doty, who had represented Bush Junior when he bought the Texas Rangers.
It's unclear what Bush did or didn't know about Harken's growing financial difficulties when he sold off his shares.
But a newly unearthed memo sent by Faulkner to Bush and other board members on May 25, 1990, refers to Harken's growing liquidity problems and the need to "prepare a listing of possible assets to be sold."
Ordinary investors, needless to say, did not have access to that information.
Under the new rules approved by Congress last week, board audit committees will be held responsible for all accounting problems -- a change that would have placed Bush in the hot seat during his Harken days.
Because Bush, as a member of the audit committee, ostensibly signed off on the deal that ran afoul of the SEC, he would under the new rules face the possibility of prosecution for securities fraud.
Would he have violated another rule banning loans to corporate officers? Maybe not. Bush received two loans from Harken, but it's uncertain whether board members will be subject to the new prohibition.
ANDERSEN'S TIES TO HARKEN
Harken's accountant was Arthur Andersen, which has since gained infamy for having so badly botched the books of Enron, WorldCom and Global Crossing -- three firms whose bankruptcies have devastated countless investors.
Less well known is the fact that Harken's CEO, Faulkner, is a former Andersen employee; as is Bruce Huff, Harken's president and chief operating officer; Wayne Hennecke, Harken's chief accounting officer; and Anna Williams, Harken's chief financial officer.
Virtually the entire executive suite at Harken has a background in Andersen's energy audit division -- the same division ultimately responsible for the Enron debacle.
Vice President Cheney is himself no stranger to Andersen. In 1996, while CEO of oil-services giant Halliburton, Cheney appeared in a promotional video for the accounting firm, crediting it with providing advice "over and above . .
. the normal by-the-books audit arrangement."
Interesting choice of words, especially considering that the SEC is now investigating both Halliburton and Andersen for allegedly inflating revenues by as much as $234 million over a four-year span.
Since 1998, Halliburton has estimated how much customers owe the company for cost overruns on big projects and booked the not-yet-paid cash as revenue.
If the SEC determines that Halliburton exaggerated these numbers beyond reasonable levels to bolster its bottom line, the company could be charged with fraud.
Halliburton neglected to tell the SEC or investors about its newly aggressive accounting practice until March 2000 -- a lapse that echoes Bush's failure to inform the SEC about more than $1 million in stock trades until as much as eight months after the fact.
These issues would be serious enough under any circumstances. That they involve the president and vice president of the United States raises them to another level of importance entirely.
LESS TOLERANCE FOR SHADY DEALS
This is especially true in light of the current climate on Wall Street and in Washington, where business ethics have taken center stage and little tolerance remains for corporate shenanigans.
Joel Kornfeld, formerly the SEC's senior trial attorney and now a Los Angeles lawyer specializing in white-collar crime, said the new reform legislation will "make people think twice before committing some wrongdoing."
Yet the same was said 15 years ago when financier Ivan Boesky went to jail for insider trading, and that episode was followed by a surge in corporate naughtiness (including Bush's and Cheney's alleged misdeeds).
"People have short memories," Kornfeld acknowledged. "We'll have to wait and see what happens."
Or as the Duchess tells a bewildered Alice: "Everything's got a moral, if only you can find it."
Misetich
Got gold?
misetich
(07/29/02; 21:15:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 81819)
Fitch: US energy trading sector faces period of 'extreme stress'
http://ogj.pennnet.com/articles/web_article_display.cfm?ARTICLE_CATEGORY=GenIn&ARTICLE_ID=150469
Snip:
Steven Poruban
Senior Staff Writer
HOUSTON, July 29 -- The US natural gas and wholesale power trading sector, along with the power-generating sector, is presently facing a period of "extreme stress," according to Richard Hunter, managing director, global power group, for New York-based Fitch Ratings.
And the energy trading sector's response to this stress is affecting the scope of activity within the energy commodities markets.
Factors contributing to this strain have been industry's desire to reduce its exposure to energy trading operations, continuing regulatory investigations into financial reporting practices, and an onslaught of litigation, Hunter said at a Fitch-hosted teleconference Friday. At the same time, energy traders are reassessing their portfolios for possible asset sales to raise cash flow and lower debt profiles.
These factors, he said, have all played their part in creating a negative outlook for the sector.
Meanwhile, analysts continue to downgrade companies involved in energy trading and power-generation. Fitch, which tracks downgrade-to-upgrade ratios, said that among all US corporations in Fitch's universe of companies—including financial institutions—the downgrade-to-upgrade ratio was 4:1 for the first half of 2002. Removing financial corporations, Hunter said that the ratio changes to "a rather heady 14 downgrades to 1 upgrade" for the same period. During the first 6 months of this year, the ratio within the global power group's universe of companies is 18:1, vs. a ratio of 6:1 for the first half of 2001.
For the first half of this year, Fitch estimated that total defaults among corporations worldwide amounted to $50 billion, Hunter said. "That compares to a record year of 2001 with $78 billion (in defaults) for the whole year, which itself beat the prior record year of 2000 with some $28 billion." Hunter said that defaults worldwide typically run well below $10 billion/year.
Risk exposure
Gas and power marketers and traders wanting to minimize their risk exposure are shying away from trading operations and concentrating efforts on firming up their physical assets. Such moves are amounting to fewer counterparties to trade with, which in turn is resulting in less trading activity and less volatility in the market, said Ellen Lapson, Fitch global power group analyst. But these same energy marketers and traders are currently in the best position to deal with any systemic risk, such as being exposed to a counterparty that defaults on a contract, Lapson noted.
"I'm confident that the marketers and traders have been reducing their exposure to those of their counterparties that they lack confindence in," Lapson said.
Misetich
Who's the next Enron?
Got gold?
misetich
(07/29/02; 21:04:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 81818)
The New Pinch from Pensions -Companies must pour billions into retiree plans after betting on stocks
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/02_31/b3794070.htm
Snip:
Amid the wreckage of the worst bear market in at least three decades, hemorrhaging corporate pension plans are rapidly becoming Wall Street's biggest new worry. They have lost hundreds of billions of dollars, and now companies face the end of their long-running holiday from writing checks to the plans. Over the next 18 months or so, companies ranging from General Motors to United Technologies face having to pump billions into their plans to comply with federal laws to protect pensioners.
Even if plan investments somehow manage to eke out 5% returns this year, companies in Standard & Poor's 500-stock index will be $40 billion short of their projected pension obligations, according to Morgan Stanley estimates. If plans lose 5%, they'll be $150 billion in the hole. Either way, it is a world away from 1999 when the plans had a $292 billion surplus and a 30% cushion over their commitments. "The squeeze on U.S. pension funds has the potential to be the defining U.S. financial crisis of the 2000s, like the savings and loan squeeze of the 1980s," says Bob Prince, director of research and trading at money manager Bridgewater Associates.
The economic consequences of the squeeze could extend far and wide. Cash that companies earmarked for buying new equipment, expanding markets, hiring employees, buying back stock, or repaying debt will have to be used to shore up pension plans. The shift will be another downer for stock prices, cutting out spending that used to boost growth in earnings per share. And the impact will soon be felt.
Under government rules, some companies must start making up for 2001 shortfalls by the end of this year. For others, the bites will start in 2003 or 2004. "Some companies are going to be contributing for the first time in 10 years," says John Ehrhardt, a principal and consulting actuary at Milliman USA Inc. "In thinking about capital expenditures, there is a new party at the table, the pension plan."
...................
Worries about pension plans sucking cash out of companies are increasingly catching Wall Street's attention. They were a factor in the downgrade of GM's credit rating last fall by Standard & Poor's, and they are in part to blame for its stock falling 34% since mid-May. GM's forecasted $9 billion in makeup payments through 2007 compare with $3.6 billion in cash flow the company is expected to generate this year after dividends, interest, and capital expenditures. To help fund a $2.2 billion payment this year, the company sold convertible debt in April. GM may have to repeat that operation in the future. "We're going to have to put in more cash than we planned," says Vice-Chairman and Chief Financial Officer John M. Devine.
"All companies are going to have to look at their pension plans," warns Patrick D. Campbell, CFO of 3M. His company hasn't decided yet how much cash to pony up, but he doesn't quarrel with Harris' estimates that $378 million will be needed in 2003 if investments lose 5% this year. The company's U.S. and foreign plan assets were 11% short of projected obligations at the end of 2001, according to the company's annual report. And since then, U.S. stocks have fallen another 27%. "Obviously, we're going to have to think this through," says Campbell.
Misetich
The house of cards is tumbling -
Got gold?
mikal
(07/29/02; 21:01:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 81817)
US markets stage another suckers rally
A few causes of the latest Wall St. drama: Corporate repatriation of overseas assets into dollar denominated stocks and stock repurchasing, helping the buck index rise also. End of month, investment fund purchasing by managers "window dressing". Euphoria at remarks by O'Neill and Bush and major changes to short-selling laws. Speculative positions following bull market moves above, and the artificially induced PPT trends.
misetich
(07/29/02; 20:59:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 81816)
Strength of the insurers sapped
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,3604,765435,00.html
Snip:
Jill Treanor
Tuesday July 30, 2002
The Guardian
The financial strength of insurance companies had more than halved in two years even before the dramatic falls in the stock markets this year, according to the latest report on the hard-pressed sector.
...........
According to the analysis by accountants Ernst & Young, the excess assets of insurance companies have fallen from £80bn in 1999 to £34bn in 2001.
This means that free asset ratios, which measure the excess assets insurers have above their liabilities, have also fallen sharply - from 18% in 1999 to 7% in 2001.
Misetich
The UK report is emblematic of the insurance industry worldwide as a whole - With trillions of stock and bond market value disappearing, financial deterioration must have accelarated - it is doubtful that these corporations will play the stock and bond market as aggressive as they once did.
ANOTHER big player going the conservative route.
Got gold?
misetich
(07/29/02; 20:43:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 81815)
S&P Forecast Summary: Lazy-Hazy-Crazy Days of Summer
http://www1.standardandpoors.com/NewsBriefs/Articles/fs0702.html
Snip:
The economy has slowed sharply after a quick first-quarter start. The inventory rebound has run most of its course, and consumer spending has caught up with income.
..............
Certainly there has been no cutback in consumer borrowing. Consumer installment debt jumped another $9.5 billion in May, breaking the record set the previous month. Since the end of zero-rate financing for cars, the debt is shifting toward credit cards and away from auto loans.
Consumer interest rates have risen over the last quarter, reflecting the end of zero-rate financing. Credit card interest rates, which never fell much as the Fed cut, have pushed even higher. Credit card defaults are soaring, hitting a record 7.6% in April before moderating slightly in May, to 7.4%. In 2000, the credit card charge-off rate averaged 5.6%. The jump shows that some consumers are in over their heads, but banks are still willing to send out applications because of the drop in the cost of funding credit cards. Interest rates paid by banks have dropped more than the losses have risen, and the rate charged by banks has come down only slightly. The result is that the spread above financing costs and losses widened to 7.0% in the first quarter from 5.8% a year earlier and an average 4.8% since 1990
...............
Working Less and Spending More
Can consumers continue to spend? With the unemployment rate likely to continue to rise through June, confidence becomes a key question. So far, however, fear does not seem to deter consumers. Disposable income is stronger than expected, in part because of the weaker tax revenues. The saving rate has edged higher, but only to 2.2% in March. The high levels of debt seem to bother economists much more than consumers. Consumer confidence edged lower in April, but the level remains high.
.................
Misetich
The fearless consumer-" jump shows that some consumers are in over their heads, but banks are still willing to send out applications"
Consumers debts are soaring, corporate earnings are dwindling - housing markets are set to cool off - auto loans are soaring - can they keep this up?
Got gold?
goldquest
(07/29/02; 20:33:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 81814)
Budget Car Rental
To bad they couldn't get a secret emergency meeting with the Fed. They could have had a bungee cord tied on to their dead cat like JPM and C! Good for a couple of more bounces, but at the end? Still a dead cat!
Black Blade
(07/29/02; 20:29:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 81813)
Negotiators Agree on Bill to Rewrite Bankruptcy Laws
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&ncid=716&e=5&u=/nyt/20020726/ts_nyt/negotiators_agree_on_bill_to_rewrite_bankruptcy_laws
Snippit:
WASHINGTON, July 25 Congressional negotiators announced today that they had reached agreement on a bill that would rewrite the bankruptcy laws, making it much harder for people to escape their debts when they declare bankruptcy. The bill approved by the conference committee would end the ability of millions of Americans to use the bankruptcy system to wipe out credit card bills and other loans that are not secured by homes or other assets. Many of those debts would instead have to be paid back over time. Credit card companies and other lenders have contended that they are being unfairly penalized as a result of the growing rate of bankruptcy filings. There were 1.45 million filings last year, a record, up 19 percent from 2000. The timing of a final agreement was intriguing, given that it is a clear victory for the interests of corporate America over consumers at a moment when large corporations are otherwise under siege on Capitol Hill because of recent scandals, many of them involving accounting abuses.
Black Blade: There could be a rush to the courts before the law is signed. Also, those that are trapped will be cutting back on spending as they struggle with debt. As always, get out of debt and stay out of debt, stash cash for several months expenses, get Gold and Silver portfolio insurance, and start a storage program of nonperishable food and basic necessities.
silvercollector
(07/29/02; 20:23:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 81812)
Currency Wars
Please check G-E at 21:03 and if need be my ensuing post at 22:21.
Black Blade
(07/29/02; 20:17:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 81811)
Budget Car Rental Files for Bankruptcy
http://www.reuters.com/news_article.jhtml;jsessionid=AQAVZDRFTNYKOCRBAEOCFEY?type=businessnews&StoryID=1264217
Snippit:
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Car-rental company Budget Group Inc. BDGPA.OB filed for bankruptcy protection on Monday, as expected, and said it secured $750 million of loans to pay for new cars and $100 million of additional funding to keep the company running as it reorganizes. Budget, facing billions of dollars of debt amid a slump in travel following the Sept. 11 attacks on the United States, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in the U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Delaware. The company listed $4.05 billion of assets and $4.33 billion of liabilities.
Black Blade: Another one bites the dust. This dead cat couldn't bounce.
Cavan Man
(07/29/02; 20:16:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 81810)
Black Blade
I recognize a speculative mania when I see one. If you recall, we had a lot of ups and downs like this between DOW 10,000 and 10,750. Anybody remember those days? I do. I could re-tell a lot of anecdotes but will spare the audience at large.
Keep your own counsel. Think "contrarian"; because no one else will and, buy gold metal not proxy.
Paper Avalanche
(07/29/02; 20:12:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 81809)
Setting the starting point
@Black Blade
Indeed, that which has yet to be digested by the market will make itself apparent in the coming weeks. I believe that the current bouyancy in the equity markets is an effort to provide an artificial staring point for the big spike into the ground. Tis better to loose 3,000 on the DOW from 9,000 than 7,000. It keeps the peasants from becoming restless.
The most entertaining days lay just before us. I pray that you and all who patronize this site are well taken care of as these events unfold.
Paper Avalanche
Black Blade
(07/29/02; 20:01:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 81808)
Market Wrap Up – Puplava
http://www.financialsense.com/Market/wrapup.htm
The Real Numbers
Snippit:
This is going to keep a cap on stock prices for a long, long time. The only way a new bull market in stocks will begin is when stock prices become a bargain. For the S&P 500 to trade at its historical P/E of 12-14, the index would have to fall back to the 200-400 level. That assumes current earnings were to hold up -- which is rather doubtful at this point. Companies aren't going to attempt to cook their books like they did during the 90's to meet analysts’ estimates. If they do, the company CEO and top management will be exchanging their pin stripes for orange stripes and spending time in the pokey. They will think twice about what goes into the annual report when they have to certify the numbers. The top brass are now liable for those numbers, which means the numbers should become more meaningful. Many companies are starting to come clean as Qwest did today by announcing the company will have to restate their financial results for years 1999-2001.
This is just the beginning. Many companies will be unwilling to certify their statements by August 14th because it isn't enough time for companies to really audit their numbers. This process will go beyond August 14th. Since the new rules were made public back in June, honest executives haven't had enough time to find the toxic waste in their financial numbers and clean them up. The first real certification of the numbers may not take place until next spring when most companies file their annual reports.
Because of the pressure being put on CEOs to come up with verifiable numbers, the earnings game is coming to an end. In addition to better numbers, several sources of inflating earnings are drying up. One source of puffing up the bottom line has been inflated pension assumptions. By inflating pension assumptions on returns on investments, companies have been able to reduce pension contributions -- even though they have been actually losing money. Accounting for stock options may be another source of overstating payroll expense. By not including the cost of stock option expense, it is estimated that S&P 500 earnings are overstated by as much as 15%. The easy days of making the numbers are over. This is why companies and analysts still use the deceptive practice of referring to pro forma numbers or any version thereof that paints the company in a favorable way. We are still playing the GAAP vs. CRAP game. The companies, the analysts, and the anchors still report pro forma earnings. The bottom line according to GAAP — earnings according to generally accepted accounting principles — is still ignored by everyone in the financial food chain from companies to analysts to anchors.
Black Blade: The real question in this market rally is how many of these stocks are "dead cats" and how high can a "dead cat bounce"? This is a most odd market rally. Even some real dogs climbed. The rally was across the board and not anywhere based on the most rudimentary fundamentals. This suggests either some broad based intervention or the start of another speculative mania. The economic data has not been all that inspiring and the GDP revisions due out on Wednesday could be bad and the August 14th deadline looms as for now we only have a trickle of companies like Qwest asking for more time as they scramble to restate earnings for the last three years. This trickle will soon cascade into a flood as the deadline approaches. Corporate CEOs and other executives might be looking for excuses to delay reporting (that would be devastating if several companies miss the deadline). It should definitely lead up to an "interesting" climax in the next couple of weeks.
USAGOLD
(07/29/02; 19:46:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 81807)
Paper Avalanche. . . .
Thanks for the kind words. MB is four nines and a five .....knows the business and how to get things done. I do not match posting names to client files, so I don't know who you are. I could tell long ago though that you were a cut above. . . Thanks for doing business with us. We need clients like you. . . .It is your purchase from USAGOLD ~ Centennial Precious Metals that has nourished these pages.
Black Blade
(07/29/02; 19:38:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 81806)
Wall Street gets a bull stampede
http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?guid=%7BB16CE21A%2DE009%2D47E7%2DA6A7%2D391B5AAC0609%7D&siteid=mktw
Snippit:
"These have been impressive days. Perhaps it's late recognition that second-quarter earnings-per-share will be positive and that the earnings recession is [thus] over. But I'm still leery on betting the ranch on this rally's sustainability. Companies' third- and fourth-quarter outlooks have been pretty downbeat," said Joe Liro, equity strategist at Stone & McCarthy Research Associates. "
We had a very powerful day. Psychology is starting to turn [as] strength is no longer being sold into," said Peter Cardillo, chief investment strategist with Global Partner Securities. "The market is coming off of extremely oversold conditions. But if follow-through buying persists and volume remains heavy, it'll be safe to say that last Wednesday represented a short-term low for stocks. This week will be crucial for stocks with all the economic data to sort through," Cardillo said.
But Merrill Lynch's chief U.S. strategist Richard Bernstein contends that the equity market does not appear overwhelmingly undervalued, even when taking into account the market's recent poor performance and current inflation and interest rate levels. "The predictability of earnings is the lowest in more than 60 years. We continue to believe that the variability -- unpredictability -- of earnings is more important when determining the current market's valuation than are interest rates and inflation," the strategist told clients. Bruce Steinberg, Merrill's chief economist, lowered second-half GDP growth forecasts to 3.5 percent from 4.5 percent and expects no Fed tightenings until 2003. He feels recent declines in equities will feed back into the real economy and expects both consumer and business spending to be negatively affected.
Black Blade: This is a curious market and the trading is far from normal. When even companies such as Qwest and AOL Time Warner can move higher on news that they lied in their corporate financial statements, you just have to wonder how reliable this stock market rally is. Stocks went higher in all sectors including the gold sector where concerns have emerged concerning the SA mineral bill draft. It appears that cash came out of every nook and cranny for this rally. The question of course is whether this is another drunken spending spree until the hangover of earnings, growth, and debt are accounted for. So far it has been quite "entertaining". In fact I even closed out a couple of positions and took profits for now. I remain positioned defensively until some real bargains emerge. So far bargains are nearly nonexistent except in physical assets such as precious metals, and perhaps a smattering of a very few issues. I think that a lot of people can be hurt if the economic data this week and through August 14th are proven to be disappointing. Still, it does provide some "entertainment".
slingshot
(07/29/02; 19:17:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 81805)
POS
**************************
POS going down. Payday Friday. Going to get me some.
Ha, Cha Cha Cha.
Great posts tonight! Gold hanging in there.
Stems and seeds? Bummer, Man.
Slingshot-------------------<>
shades
(07/29/02; 18:45:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 81804)
govermint shorting silver?
I say let the govermint short silver down to whatever they want it will just provide me the opportunity to buy more. the fundamentals have not changed one iota this will just speed up the time frame for the inevitable supply/demand crunch I own both stocks and physical and try as they might they are not going to shake this long from the tree.
Paper Avalanche
(07/29/02; 18:31:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 81803)
A note about our host
Today I received a recent purchase from the fine folks at CPM and was very, very pleased with the quality of the product that I purchased.
I now sleep better with pre-1933 gold vs. bullion. It took me two years to take this leap, but Marie Ballard made it too easy.
Thanks.
Paper Avalanche
YGM
(07/29/02; 18:28:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 81802)
Congress, Merrill Lynch and Enron.....
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020729/ap_wo_en_po/us_business_scandals_2
Just watch and see how wide the net is cast before this crap is over....Merrill is just as bad as JPM & GS....Piper Jaffray is another in the loop....All the Brokerage Houses, big or small must be sweating bullets right about now....
2002 will go down as the largest swarm of Class Action lawsuits against brokerage houses in History....YGM
Paper Avalanche
(07/29/02; 18:24:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 81801)
Sometimes the best entertainment is free
http://www.sec.gov/rules/extra/ceocfo.htm
This should be the hottest website for the next two weeks.
Have fun.
Paper Avalanche
misetich
(07/29/02; 18:06:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 81800)
Enron's SPEs: Can Banks Have It Both Ways?
http://www.cfo.com/Article?article=7487
Snip:
According to court records, JP MorganChase was apparently skilled at having its cake and eating it too—that is, keeping special purpose entities independent, yet exercising control.
Tim Reason, CFO Magazine
July 25, 2002
..............
At the heart of the recent storm over allegations that Citigroup and JP MorganChase extended off-balance sheet loans to Enron by disguising them as gas trades are Yosemite and Mahonia—the special purpose entities used as middlemen in the transactions.
Enron, of course, made SPEs infamous with its earlier Chewco, which under accounting rules should have been consolidated on Enron's books because that SPE did not have the requisite 3 percent outside ownership to be considered independent of Enron.
The banks, however, were apparently far more skilled at having it both ways: that is, keeping the SPEs technically independent, yet still exercising effective control.
Take JP MorganChase and Mahonia. According to court records and JP MorganChase's testimony before the Senate on Tuesday, the bank appears to have tapped into a sort of pool of SPEs available in Jersey, in the Channel Islands.
Mahonia, in fact, is owned by a charitable trust. According to Senate testimony by JP MorganChase managing director Jeffrey Dellapina, "neither Chase nor Enron has any ownership interest in Mahonia."
He added that Mahonia's officers are not appointed nor controlled by Chase or Enron. However, JP MorganChase spokesman Adam Castellani says the funds that Mahonia was using to pay Enron came from JP MorganChase and were recorded on JP MorganChase's balance sheet -- apparently as financing -- under "Other Assets."
Despite these arrangements, JP MorganChase has consistently maintained that Mahonia -- and another SPE conveniently named Mahonia Natural Gas -- were totally independent.
Back in February, that arrangement puzzled the judge in the pending case between JP MorganChase and 11 insurance companies that have refused to pay the bank for surety bonds that backed the gas trades between Enron and Mahonia. His effort to get JP MorganChase attorneys to explain who owns Mahonia sounds something like an Abbott and Costello routine:
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK COURT JUDGE JED S. RAKOFF: I couldn't tell from the record, and I don't know if it's part of the record how Mahonia came to you?
JP MORGANCHASE ATTORNEY JOHN M. CALLAGY: How it came to me, your Honor?
JUDGE Yes.
JP MORGANCHASE: Mahonia is an entity under Jersey law in the Channel Islands.
JUDGE: Who set it up?
JP MORGANCHASE: It was set up by the law firm of Morant & Co. which is a Jersey law firm.
JUDGE: At whose request?
JP MORGANCHASE: I believe it was set up at the request of East Laws Trust, which actually owns the shares in Mahonia, [which] are owned beneficially by a company called East Laws Trust, which is a charitable trust. I think this law firm sets up companies like Mahonia as special purpose entities.
JUDGE: What I'm trying to get at is: Was it set up for the purpose of these particular transactions [with Enron]?
JP MORGANCHASE: I believe it was set up in 1992 for the purposes of these particular transactions, yes.
JUDGE: Was that at the behest of Chase Bank?
JP MORGANCHASE: No, your Honor. As I said, they contacted the Morant -- I believe that they contacted Morant & Co. and asked for—because they've used special purpose vehicles before, in other transactions.
The judge apparently accepted the argument that because it used a Jersey law firm as an intermediary, JP MorganChase did not "set up" Mahonia itself. But his next question also drew a surprising answer:
JUDGE: Does the Plaintiff have any interest, direct or indirect in Mahonia?
JP MORGANCHASE: None, your Honor, and nor does Enron for that matter.
That's an assertion that can only be maintained within the narrowest confines of corporate law. While JP MorganChase claims it doesn't have an ownership interest in Mahonia, it certainly has direct financial interest.
In fact, it is Mahonia, not JP MorganChase, that is the obligee on the $956 million in unpaid surety bonds. Yet that money -- if it's ever recovered -- will go to JP MorganChase. And it is JP MorganChase's high-priced attorneys who are pursuing it.
Indeed, the plaintiff in the case is officially listed as "JP Morgan Chase Bank, for itself and for and on behalf of Mahonia Limited and Mahonia Natural Gas Limited." Not counting the attorneys from JP MorganChase, no attorneys from East Law Trust or Mahonia were present at the hearing.
Misetich
Will Citi and JP Morgan get away with this?
A court case scheduled to begin in December will determine whether Morgan Chase will suffer an additional $1 billion blow from Enron meltdown. The bank has sued 11 insurance companies for refusing to pay off on $956 million in surety bonds -- bonds that Morgan Chase took out as protection in case the gas trades with Enron went south.
http://www.cfo.com/Article?article=7485
Hendricks went on to intimate that Citigroup bankers had been taken in by the accounting at Enron. "It appears that the audited financial statements, upon which we relied, were not accurate and did not fairly present Enron's financial condition," she told lawmakers.
But some observers found that comment puzzling. As Roach noted, in 2000 (the last year Enron submitted a 10-K to the SEC), the Houston-based trading company's numbers would have looked substantially worse -- without help from the transactions set up by Salomon Smith Barney, Citigroup, and JP MorganChase.
"If Enron had properly accounted for these transactions," Roach testified, "its total debt would have increased by about 40 percent to about $14 billion, and its funds flow from operations would have dropped by almost 50 percent, to about $1.7 billion." He added: "These are dramatic changes."
http://www.cfo.com/article/1,5309,7485|15|||,00.html
The stakes are high- this issue goes well beyond Enron - as these type of transactions are recognized by bankers as legitimate -
Enron employees, shareholders, bondholders - got stuck big -
Lets stay on this hot TRAIL
Got gold?
R Powell
(07/29/02; 18:05:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 81799)
Seeker of the Golden Grail
I saw your comment (81736) wondering about the change in the COT numbers after Friday's big downturn. When I saw the POS numbers Friday I too thought that the large specs had sold bigtime. Whether the market was pushed down to hit their stops or just drifted down hitting the stops, that it did hit them is evident.
I quess the question is, as you said, how much of their long position was liquidated. If they're now near to neutral, will the market wander and begin to trade higher on fundamentals?
Will we once more see commercial selling into spec buying as POS heads higher as is the usual case? The day will come when something (eventually physical shortage if nothing before then) will set off this often explosive silver market and the commercials will be the only source of selling even though they will be operating on tight supply. The confirmation, last week, by presidential signature, of government silver buying didn't move the market at all. This convinces me more than ever that the supply/demand fundamentals have been forgotten by market players. It's sort of like the bubblonians disregarding P/E ratios in favor of "momentum buying". I've never seen a market reach a year in which all available supply is consumed by demand but if silver continues at its present deficit, my quess would be year 2004 when year end stocks will be listed as "down to seeds and stems again blues" as we used to say in the hippie days of yore. That's zilch for those not fluent in 1960s lingo.
Thanks for mentioning the COT and please share whatever information you find. Is there truth to the idea that each time the market washes out the weak hands, those remaining are stronger? As you mentioned in 81738, the markets will retract often even when the overall move is much higher. My strategy is simple, take some profits when they appear and buy the dips while holding a core position and physical metal. Even if correct in prediction, making a profit from trading is not easy. Congrats on recognising old man greed when he tried to befuddle your better judgement.
Rich
Paper Avalanche
(07/29/02; 17:53:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 81798)
HUI up 7.7% today
Close: 102.38
Change: 7.38
The paper price of gold pretty much flatlined for the day, but the HUI shot up 7.7%.
Methinks that someone recognizes such blatant POG manipulation to be temporary at best.
Peace out.
Paper Avalanche
misetich
(07/29/02; 17:45:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 81797)
Brazil requests U.S. retraction of O'Neill remarks
http://www.forbes.com/newswire/2002/07/29/rtr679753.html
Snip:
BRASILIA, Brazil, July 29 (Reuters) - Brazilian President Fernando Henrique Cardoso on Monday requested a retraction of disparaging remarks made by U.S. Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill who implied that international aid to the country could end up in Swiss bank accounts.
"President Cardoso gave instructions for the Ambassador to be called for a retraction," Supreme Court President Marco Aurelio Mello told reporters after meeting with Cardoso, the court's press office said.
O'Neill, who will be traveling to Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay next week, said on Sunday he would not bring the economically troubled countries any offers of aid on his trip. He added that the countries needed to enact sound policies so that "(aid) does some good and it doesn't just go out of the country to Swiss bank accounts."
Misetich
O'Neil telling it like is - Does he have to do it publicly?
This man is walking time bomb!
Got gold?
Sierra Madre
(07/29/02; 17:34:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 81796)
For your information...
Rumors are circulating in Argentina, that a couple of provinces of the country are to be handed over to creditors in payment of debts.
Question: could it be that the Argentinians have been left twisting in the wind, precisely in order to produce this result?
The Argentinians are so demoralized, that the rumors have failed to galvanize any reaction in protest. The people just don't seem to care what happens to their country anymore.
What has hit Argentinians stongly, has been the sight of their young ones leaving the country for opportunity elsewhere.
A pity, for Argentina is blessed with great resources that make emigration completely needless.
Sierra
steady
(07/29/02; 17:07:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 81795)
HaVe We HaD tHe ScAnDlE Of ThE dAy YeT
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/020729/lam106_1.html
Riverstone Networks Charged With Securities Fraud in Class Action Filed by Weiss & Yourman
LOS ANGELES, July 29 /PRNewswire/ -- A class action lawsuit has been filed in the United States District Court for the Northern District of California, on behalf of purchasers of Riverstone Networks, Inc. (Nasdaq: RSTN - News) securities between August 20, 2001 and June 5, 2002, inclusive (the "Class Period"). Riverstone designs, manufactures and markets Internet infrastructure equipment to telecommunications service providers.
The Complaint alleges that throughout the Class Period, Riverside and certain of its senior officers deceived the investing public through a series of press releases and statements to the media which falsely represented the Company's financial condition and prospects and, specifically, the true effect that the downturn in telecom spending had upon the Company.
However, gradually the truth emerged. On February 28, 2002, the Company announced that revenues for the fourth quarter would be $50-$54 million, instead of the originally projected $65 million, that the Company would at best break even on a pro forma basis,
sO oN & sO fOrTh YaLl KnOw ThE rEsT oF tHe StOrY w/Out LoOkEn
Waverider
(07/29/02; 17:01:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 81794)
Estimated U.S. borrowing need in July-Sept raised
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/020729/economy_treasury_borrowing_3.html
Snip:
"The U.S. Treasury on Monday said it would need to borrow more in the July-September quarter than it previously thought, reflecting a weaker federal budget outlook. In its quarterly borrowing estimate, Treasury said it expected to borrow $76 billion in the final quarter of the government's fiscal year, which ends in September. In late April, the Treasury had estimated the amount it would need to borrow at only $55 billion.
In the recently completed April-June quarter, when the government has traditionally paid down debt with a flood of individual income tax receipts, the Treasury actually borrowed $15 billion, higher than the $1 billion in borrowing it estimated it would need in April. Treasury's preliminary forecast also calls for more borrowing in the October-December quarter, to the tune of about $71 billion. The speed and the severity of the budget crunch, coming after many analysts in 2001 had been predicting the United States could even pay off its multi-trillion dollar national debt, has taken many by surprise."
Waverider: Of course we heard it here first yesterday evening from Michael..."I think we are going to find that the government has blown the lid off the national debt and with it the %-age held by the Fed."
Michael ~ thank you for your kind words.
YGM
(07/29/02; 16:46:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 81793)
EXCELLENT Site.....
http://www.GoldmanSuchs.com
EXCERPT:
Listening to GS "Wealth Managers" Can Be Very Costly
When I turned over my holdings to Goldman "wealth managers," they told me my stock was worth $35 million. They said, "You're a busy executive; let us manage your holdings. We're experts in single stock risk management." The plan they gave me was flawed, and totally unsuited to my concentrated position or retirement plans. My neophyte "wealth manager" failed to recommend hedging, instead encouraging me to exercise and hold, and borrow on margin. When they finished with me a year and a half later, following Goldman's plan, I lost everything I owned. Goldman left me in financial ruin. Now I have an NASD complaint pending against Bradley DeFoor, James Milligan and Daniel Stanton, of Goldman's Private Client Services group. HB -- San Francisco
"Investors are expected to file a record number of complaints against their brokers this year, and they are so far winning record awards, according to new data from NASD Dispute Resolution. The NASDAQ subsidiary, which handles more than 90 per cent of claims against brokers and brokerage firms, logged 2,475 new cases to the end of April, a 16 per cent increase over last year." Source: "Record complaints against brokers this year," by Alison Beard, Financial Times, May 28, 2002.
Investigations Up, Profits Down
Goldman Sachs is being investigated by the SEC, NASD, NYSE and regulators from every State in the nation for a variety of violations, including conflicts of interest, "laddering", insider bond trading, cross-marketing abuses, and the Enron debacle. Most regulatory agencies don't comment on investigations, but everything in this site has been reported, confirmed or documented.
"...with the Securities and Exchange Commission and other state securities regulators now jumping into the fray, it's clear that "Analyst-Gate" is going to be a headache for the entire industry for quite sometime. ... For now, the safest course of action for individual investors might be to stay away from the companies that have the most to lose in the various investigations and lawsuits - stocks like Merrill, Goldman, Morgan Stanley, J.P. Morgan Chase and Citigroup." Source: "Going Broke With Brokerage Stocks," by Matthew Goldstein, SmartMoney.com, May 10, 2002.
[The] states have joined a nationwide task force investigating alleged conflicts of interest among Wall Street stock analysts in a probe that some say could turn up worse behavior than what Merrill Lynch & Co. was accused of. ... The state probes are starting with volumes of material obtained by investigators for New York Atty. Gen. Eliot Spitzer, who alleged that Merrill analysts issued false and misleading stock reports to help the firm win lucrative business handling stocks, bonds and mergers for companies they covered. One source said the investigations may turn up worse conflicts of interest than those exposed at Merrill, where investigators dug up e-mails that revealed Internet analysts privately describing their choice stock picks as "junk." ... Merrill "was clearly not the worst offender," said a source close to Spitzer, predicting the attorney general and other securities regulators would publicly disclose additional incriminating evidence against other firms. [Note: Since this story appeared, regulators from every State in the nation have joined this task force.] Source: "Inquiry: Securities regulators will investigate alleged conflicts of interest..." by Scott Reckard, LA Times, May 24 2002.
Cont'd @ Link......YGM.
YGM
(07/29/02; 16:03:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 81792)
Must be a few closet Gold-Bugs @ Yahoo JPM Message Board
Note 9 Recomendations and no detractors comments yet...AhHa!!
Next I'll direct them over here to get an education....YGM
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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Gold Bugs in retreat....Ha, What a joke
by: zulu_gold_wars (53/M)
JPM..Long-Term Sentiment: Strong Smell 07/29/02 04:08 pm
Msg: 27162 of 27189
Yup, they made 80% on Gold stocks on the way up, made a bundle shorting Dow, made good on todays PPT manipulation on Dow spike today sold and now loaded up on CHEAP Gold stocks again. That's the sorry life of Gold Bugs..PM stocks are trading at POG levels of $275/$285. so there's the value...When the next shoe falls for the scandal of the day club PM's will shine again. And so the story goes....JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs deserve a Strong Smell recomendation...Also the Gold Manipulation Cabal deserves a thank you for being so predictable....EASY MONEY DAYS ARE HERE!
"GO GOLD & GO GATA"
misetich
(07/29/02; 15:57:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 81791)
Bank economists see credit tightening but no crunch
http://money.iwon.com/jsp/nw/nwdt_ge.jsp?section=news&news_id=reu-n29157369&feed=reu&date=20020729&cat=USMARKET
Snip:
WASHINGTON, July 29 (Reuters) - U.S. banks have begun to restrict credit in the face of increased business risks, but there is no credit crunch looming, bank economists said on Monday.
Financial services banks are looking harder at quality in lending after recent high-profile bankruptcies, economists representing the American Bankers Association said in a conference call with reporters.
The shift has primarily affected commercial and industrial loans, bank economists said.
"We're not having a credit crunch but we are having some impedement of credit flows, and that is part and parcel of being in a business recession," said Fred Breimyer, chief economist for State Street Corp.
**********************
Misetich
Bond investors and banks are getting RISK AVERSE - Lets wait patiently on the results of this actions in months to come
Will it increase corporate spending?
Will it increase jobs?
Will it increase earnings?
Will it increase government tax revenues?
Got gold?
YGM
(07/29/02; 15:47:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 81790)
Gold That barbarous Relic Sold fpr $8565.00 P/OZ ...Historical Reminders Section
http://www.321gold.com/mustread/eureka/eureka.html
Excerpt....
Gold @ $8565 an ounce!
SS Central America treasure 'Eureka' gold bar sells
for a cool eight million dollars
Barb Moriarty
November 10, 2001
A Barbaric Relic for a Billionaire
A Kellogg and Humbert California Gold Rush bar that had spent virtually all of its life at the bottom of the ocean with the wreck of SS Central America was sold privately last week (Nov 2001) for 8 million dollars. The awesome 'gold brick' was purchased by a "Forbes 400 business executive,'' according to Michael Carabini, president of Monaco Financial, who handled the incredible sale.
The Gold Brick
Known as Eureka, it is the largest-known gold bar to come out of the California Gold Rush and at 933.94oz is the size of a loaf of bread. The value in 1857 was $17,433.57, and as with most ingots of that era the dollar value is stamped on the bar. It would have taken six miners a whole year of 12-hour day's hard sweat and toil to produce the gold for that bar.
Eureka holds two records; the highest weight and highest stamped value, and it is so large that it required two hallmark stamps of the assayer. Many refer to the ingot as The Crown Jewel from the Ship of Gold,
*Cont'd @ link.......Old story but one to brighten any Gold lovers day....YGM
misetich
(07/29/02; 15:40:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 81789)
Citi, Morgan discuss Enron entities
http://money.cnn.com/2002/07/29/news/citi_delta.reut/index.htm
Snip:
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Citigroup Inc. Chairman and Chief Executive Sanford "Sandy" Weill Monday denied knowledge of an offshore entity central to a U.S. Senate probe into the bank's ties to the bankrupt energy trader Enron.
..............
Weill referred Senate questions about Delta Energy to Barbara Yastine, the chief financial officer of Citigroup's corporate and investment bank. Yastine said in a separate affidavit Citibank asked a Cayman Islands law firm to incorporate Delta Energy in 1993 to be a counterparty in prepaid commodities forward transactions involving oil company Amerada Hess Corp. (AHC: Research, Estimates).
"Citigroup does not control Delta," Yastine said. "Delta was established at Citibank's request in 1993 as a special purpose entity with the express intention of making it independent of, and unaffiliated with, Citibank under relevant legal and regulatory standpoints."
..................
Delta Energy was formed as a counterparty at the time because regulations limited Citibank's ability to receive delivery of physical commodities like oil and natural gas, Yastine said. Delta is owned by Grand Commodities Corp., whose sole shareholder is Givens Hall Bank and Trust, she said.
Citibank paid fees to Givens Hall for some administration costs like registration fees, related to Delta, and Citibank also paid some transaction expenses in certain prepaid transactions it structured, Yastine said.
*************************
Misetich
"Delta was established at Citibank's request in 1993"
"called Mahonia, that was set up by J.P. Morgan Chase "
It'll be very interesting to follow this one- sounds like ANOTHER "what is, is" -
Got gold?
Operative
(07/29/02; 15:40:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 81788)
@ steady - out of context
I thought about the context issue when I posted earlier this morning. You are right of course. I trust you are refering to the total message of Exezkiel as related in chapter 28 and not to the posting of such on this forum. Afterall, this forum is in pursuit of wisdom and knowledge as it relates to gold/silver amongst other worthwhile ideas from time to time. Some seek answers in the stars, the mention of tea leaves does come up, <grin> and there is often talk of modern day prophets who have voiced thier "opinions" on directions of markets or PM's as well. I thought the venerated prophet of Exeziel might have slipped in a litte insight for us Goldbugs as well.
Chapter 28, verses 3 & 4 is out of context in that it is describing a "Prince of Tyrus" who through his wisdom and understanding did acquire riches, and Gold/Silver. One can build a case that there was some question as to how he built his riches as it appears it was in markets/trading of that time. Who is to say, the guy may have been on the up and up,
we are told through wisdom and understanding he acquired his gold. This is the relavant idea I hoped to put forth here this morning. It is the understanding of many here that the fiat system is not the way to go and that it's future outlook indeed appears bleak. It at one time might ( doubt it) but might have been a good concept, but the creators of the paper have pushed it way beyond the envelope and is headed to the great paper shredder in the sky so to speak. Abused and misused and yet continued to be propped up.
Back to the Prince. In the verses following 3&4 God is going to deal extremely harshly because of his pride. It seems he had allowed his riches to send him on a head trip thinking he was some kind of god. Pride led to the fall of satan, and was used against Eve in the garden. His sales pitch to her was first meant to question God. "Surely you won't die.."
Then he offered her to "be like God". A heady trip when you think about it. I too would have probably bought into the offer, but it was a lie. This was the downfall too of the Prince mentioned here, the sin of pride. Not that he was rich, had wisdom, understanding, or accumlated Gold/Silver.
A lesson to be learned from as it in my opinion, is probably at the heart of so many of the problems today. It does appear that many of the CEO's have let the richness of the day go to thier head. Thinking they were above true accounting of thier behaviour in the boardroom. Thinking they too were at least little gods and could hide or coverup thier actions. Perhaps that is what has permitted the derivatives imbalances now coming to light with the major banks. They bought into thier own greatness, the ability to manipulate like a god the markets, dollar, and even the price of gold. Could it be that this is the results we today are viewing? Is it an old story from long ago being repeated? Enron, Worldcom, and the many yet be made known, is this what is happening? Are the little gods falling from thier concrete and glass towers because of pride? They felt above it all, above the accountants, above the law. And like little gods often think, they were in control. I guess we watch and wait how the mighty fair in the coming months. But they may want to check in on how the Prince of Tyrus gets recompensed in the end.
As for us little folks, let us continue to seek wisdom where she may be found. Thankfully, a lot of the posters here do a great service in providing a truly more rare commodity than gold itself, wisdom. Let us seek understanding amongst the headlines and inbetween the lines. Understanding of fiat money systems, understanding of true value and wealth. Let us seek the understanding and wisdom of those gone before us both in bible times and our founding fathers.
And then, having found these things, let us act accordingly to protect our families, ourselves, our freedoms.
Cavan Man
(07/29/02; 15:28:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 81787)
pardon moi TC
Haste makes (among other things) poor grammar. Should read, "...towards and alternative".
misetich
(07/29/02; 15:26:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 81786)
U.S. junk bonds likely to post worst year ever
http://www.forbes.com/newswire/2002/07/29/rtr679474.html
Snip:
"There hasn't been fundamental news in the economy or in financial markets to justify the rebound in stocks, and without that there is no particular reason for high-yield to do better," said Martin Fridson, chief high-yield strategist at Merrill Lynch & Co.
That's bad news for junk bond investors worried about a possible credit crunch as corporate accounting runs amok, bond sales get canceled and investor cash drains away.
Many have lost money since 1997. In 2002, the junk bond market absorbed about $60 billion of debt from formerly investment-grade "fallen angels" such as phone companies Qwest Communications International Inc. (nyse: Q - news - people) and WorldCom Inc. (nasdaq: Q - news - people) and energy traders Dynegy Inc. (nyse: Q - news - people) and Williams Cos. (nyse: Q - news - people)
..............
RECORD DECLINES
Merrill Lynch's main junk bond index has fallen 9.09 percent this year, lagging every other bond index by at least 11 percentage points. Its worst full-year drop is 5.12 percent, suffered in 2000. An investor who put $1,000 in junk bonds in December 1997 has only $961 left now.
"The only comparable extended downturn I've seen was in 1989 and 1990," said Fridson, an 18-year high-yield bond veteran, referring to when Michael Milken's Drexel Burnham Lambert junk bond kingdom collapsed. "I don't think people are taking an apocalyptic view of the current market, though they could expect several more months of tough sledding."
Junk bond mutual funds are down an average 6.89 percent, fund information service Morningstar Inc. said.
The decline is less than the index because many funds never bought Qwest or WorldCom bonds on the way down.
...............
Investors have drained cash from junk bond mutual funds for seven weeks, AMG Data Services said, leaving Wall Street bond dealers unwilling to commit capital. "Risk managers will not permit traders to sit with stale inventory," Fridson said.
.............
Yet the prospect of more defaults may cap overall gains.
Moody's Investors Service on Monday reported a record $42.6 billion of junk bond defaults in the second quarter and forecast an 8.8 percent year-end junk bond default rate. That is down from 10.3 percent now, but Moody's had been forecasting a 7 percent rate, and it said the rate might rise anew in 2003.
"The painfully slow decline in high-yield defaults may keep a lid on high-yield total returns for some time," said David Hamilton, Moody's director of default research.
Fridson had also been expecting a bigger drop in the default rate. "If you knock out that last leg, it does present a rather bleak picture for the remainder of 2002 and perhaps the first half of 2003."
Copyright 2002, Reuters News Service
*******************8
Misetich
As can be attested from Moody's poor forecast - on expected bond default rate - most economists and market experts have understated the bubble burst - not surprising since most did not acknowledge a bubble in the first place and missed the US recession (1.6 million laid off workers)
What are the effects of these "experts" poor forecasting?
Got gold?
Cavan Man
(07/29/02; 15:26:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 81785)
No, Towne Crier.......
I'm simply wondering why there isn't more "official" visible progress to an alternative.
cyberbat
(07/29/02; 15:18:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 81784)
Will wonders never cease!!
After investors lost trillions in the latest stock sham, everyone went out borrowed money and ran back in to the market today. Hmmmm. You don't think uncle sammy was sneaking back in to the markets today thru the S&P 500 back door do you?
misetich
(07/29/02; 15:16:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 81783)
JP Morgan says Enron-linked offshore unit independent
http://www.forbes.com/newswire/2002/07/29/rtr679500.html
Snip:
NEW YORK, July 29 (Reuters) - J.P. Morgan Chase & Co. Inc. (nyse: JPM - news - people) said on Monday an offshore unit at the center of a U.S. Senate probe into the bank's Enron ties was legally independent and that Enron misled J.P. Morgan about its finances.
The bank's response follows letters the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations sent to J.P. Morgan and Citigroup Inc. (nyse: C - news - people) about their relationships to offshore units Delta Energy and Mahonia, which were allegedly used by bankupt energy trader Enron Corp. <ENRNQ.PK> to disguise debt.
Mahonia, established at J.P. Morgan's request in December 1992, is a legally independent entity controlled by a charitable trust, not J.P. Morgan Chase, the bank said. Mahonia also was involved in other legal and appropriate transactions with other clients, the bank said in a statement.
Copyright 2002, Reuters News Service
...............
Misetich
From Forbes
For J.P. Morgan, the same issue was vetted three months ago. At that time, a U.S. district court judge, Jed Rakoff, (the same judge involved in the WorldCom (nasdaq: WCOME - news - people ) case) ruled preliminarily in a dispute between J.P. Morgan and its insurers that J.P. Morgan's transactions with Enron appeared to be fraudulent: "These arrangements now appear to be nothing but a disguised loan--or at least have sufficient indicia thereof that the court could not possibly grant judgment to the plaintiff,'' Rakoff wrote in denying a motion by the bank. (See: J.P. Morgan Loses Round One.)
http://www.forbes.com/business/2002/07/24/0724topnews.html
Lets stay on this hot TRAIL shall we.
Got gold?
misetich
(07/29/02; 15:08:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 81782)
Xcel Shares Plunge After S&P Cuts NRG Unit to Junk
http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?ptitle=Top%20Financial%20News&s1=blk&tp=ad_topright_topfin&T=markets_bfgcgi_content99.ht&s2=ad_right1_topfin&bt=ad_position1_topfin&middle=ad_frame2_topfin&s=APUWjahPiWGNlbCBT
Snip:
The company needs $1.5 billion so its NRG Energy unit can buy power plants from FirstEnergy Corp. Investors have shunned NRG's bonds amid reduced cash flow for U.S. energy traders such as Dynegy Inc., which were hurt by declines in trading and power prices. Companies are selling assets as lenders tighten credit
...............
S&P cut its rating on the senior unsecured debt of generator NRG Energy three notches to B+, the fourth-highest junk rating, from BBB-, the lowest investment grade. It said it may reduce the rating further, and may cut Xcel's corporate credit rating of BBB, two notches above junk.
Avert Default
Xcel Energy said Friday it will sell about $500 million in stock and is negotiating with lenders to avert a default by NRG. A credit downgrade would require NRG to post as much as $1.1 billion in collateral on construction loans, the company said. A default by NRG would block Xcel's access to two lines of credit worth $800 million.
...............
Misetich
Williams, Xcel , other energy corporations are in severe debt difficulties
Will they default? It is reported that JP Morgan is one of the main lenders in the energy field which included Enron.
Who are the other Enrons that JP Morgan, Citi conducted their vanilla type of transactions with?
Got gold?
TownCrier
(07/29/02; 15:04:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 81781)
Cavan Man -- machinations "casting muck"
How so? Are you suggesting that FOA implied that all international monetary cooperation is a thing of a bygone (pre-euro) era? Or am I missing something?
Even rivals W/R/T the end-game may pull together at intermediate times to fend off mutually assured destruction, yes, things being that bad.
R.
Cavan Man
(07/29/02; 15:02:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 81780)
@ANYBODY
Why don't the Chinese, Japanese or Europeans act and do something, anything? Especially EU; exports are approximately 13% to US. Where are their dollars going?
misetich
(07/29/02; 15:00:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 81779)
Brazil Currency, Bonds Plunge on Concern IMF Won't Send New Aid
http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?ptitle=Top%20Financial%20News&s1=blk&tp=ad_topright_topfin&T=markets_bfgcgi_content99.ht&s2=ad_right1_topfin&bt=ad_position1_topfin&middle=ad_frame2_topfin&s=APUWaSxWOQnJhemls
Snip:
Rio de Janeiro, July 29 (Bloomberg) -- Brazil's currency posted its largest decline since a 1999 devaluation on concern the International Monetary Fund won't grant new loans, raising the risk of a default on $337 billion in government debt.
The real fell 5.4 percent and Brazilian bonds slid to the lowest since at least January 1996 after U.S. Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill said yesterday he wouldn't endorse more IMF aid to Brazil, which has received about $33 billion from the agency since 1998. South America's largest economy needs more aid to bolster reserves and help make debt payments, investors said.
``We're at a point where market momentum doesn't stop unless there's a policy response from the IMF and the government,'' said James Barrineau, who helps manage about $6 billion in emerging market bonds at New York-based Alliance Capital Management Co. ``They have to stop talking about an IMF agreement and do something about it.''
The currency's decline increases the cost of making debt payments because more than half of Brazilian government obligations are tied to the dollar. Brazil's debt, which has tripled since 1995, jumps by $1.4 billion for every percentage point the currency loses to the dollar, eroding confidence the country can refinance its borrowings.
..................
Misetich
Brazil's debt woes increase as the real depreciates - JP Morgan exposure is reported as 2.6 billion
JP Morgan, Citi and banks woes are not going away - It is interesting that after the secret Fed meeting last week, following Senate's Enron investigation we have witnessed:
Attack on gold and silver markets
Attack on Cdn and Australian $ (surprising as the CDN recovery is doing much better than US)
US stock markets propped up significantly
Why?
The more governments interfere with free markets, the more unstable the markets get- as markets and currencies should reflect countries economics-
US economics SHOULD include the RISK OF OVERVALUED STOCK AND HOUSING MARKETS
First Call expected earnings for 3rd and 4th qtr are 13.5% (and being revised downwards daily and a whopping 25% increase in 4th qtr)
http://www1.firstcall.com/commentary/market/commentary2.html?commentart|market|full report
Are those earnings expectations reality?
Big Bear is licking its chops ready for ANOTHER stock market raid!
Got gold?
Cavan Man
(7/29/02; 14:19:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 81778)
Son of Greenspan II
MY CASINO.....HE LIVESSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cavan Man
(7/29/02; 14:18:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 81777)
Towne Crier
These presumed, coordinated machinations would appear to cast muck upon our most esteemed "essayist" (aka, FOA).
TownCrier
(7/29/02; 14:00:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 81776)
My brief view of these modern times
http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=NYBOT_DXY0&v=d12
First a recall of a quote from yesterday's news seems appropriate:
"The pace of change in today's economy is much faster than in earlier decades." -- Dr Olarn Chaipravat, a senior Finance Ministry adviser
Beside me, is anyone else struck by the performance of the dollar as resembling a blast from the past?
Athough it may be too early to render a final verdict, specifically, what we have witnessed over the course of just these five recent months seems to be a condensed replay of the September 1985 Plaza agreement to address an overvalued dollar, and the February 1987 Louvre agreement to help steady it again.
A good recollection of comments by public officials during this time (and the recent revival of the "strong dollar mantra) would seem to support coordinated efforts to this effect. And honestly, have we come to expect it any other way?
But to all gold advocates I hasten to say, take heart -- soundly based on the very same principle that saw gold break free from the very concerted official designs of $35 per ounce. Thus, it will not linger at $300 for overlong. Call Centennial to make your arrangements for delivery to your door the independent wealth of kings.
R.
TownCrier
(7/29/02; 13:38:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 81775)
cyberbat, thanks...
...for the eye-opener.
R.
Mr Gresham
(7/29/02; 13:30:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 81774)
Sierra, nation, Michael, Canuck
Canuck: passionate & eloquest yesterday -- I hope "finale" does not mean "bye-bye" from you -- let me be first to object.
nation of one -- brilliant work on the "Bull Fairy"!
Michael -- It really is a "Lenny Bruce"-type world now, isn't it? When you see it all too clearly, it's crazy-making. Knowing when to step away: now, _that's_ the art! Thanks for the healthy reminder.
Sierra -- welcome home, and now to read your Wordsworth below...
TownCrier
(7/29/02; 13:30:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 81773)
"Central Bank Insider" update! Your fortnightly must-read on the deeper and lighter sides of CB news
http://www.usagold.com/centralbank/current.html
Under the heading "Caribbean Machinations" you may get a sense from the Trinidad and Tobago experience why it should seem more unlikely, despite persistent whisperings to the contrary, that former SecTreas Rubin might soon succeed Alan Greenspan as Chairman of the Federal Reserve -- politics being what they are.
Over the weekend we reported on movements toward a common Asian currency, and now, in typical CB Newsmakers fashion, we hear of yet another initiative in the single currency trend budding south of the eurozone -- the "afro"...
In similar fashion, we hear about Greenspan's staff giving credit where credit is due -- to luck.
Meanwhile, ECB head Duisenberg has his crosses to bear, and Milton "sour grapes" Friedman remains a euro skeptic.
You'll also learn of the efficacy of the new Washington mail processing techniques to eradicate any possible ill effect of anthrax or of financial journals upon anyone at their final point of delivery.
R.
cyberbat
(7/29/02; 13:21:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 81772)
Silver price
The mint at Westpoint where all the gold and silver are made employs government workers so there is no profit motive there for them.
If the government will lie to you about a good economy, if the PPT will enter the market place spending millions of your tax dollars buying S&P 500 indexes, if they would steal all the funds set back for the American Indian with Robber Rubin at the head, if they would outlaw gold after it becomes too competitive against paper like they did a few decades back, do you not think they would short the silver market down almost 50 cents where they could buy low and sell high to the tune of 6 times the value of spot silver ?
TownCrier
(7/29/02; 12:42:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 81771)
cyberbat
Is it not possible that the Mint might operate along the order of an owner of a petrol station?
On top of that, the fabrication premium itself offers business viability, if, indeed, a government entity can be so motivated by such a novel incentive as turning profit.
Just food for thought, offered for balance.
R.
Gimli_
(7/29/02; 12:34:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 81770)
Spot Silver DOWN with US Gov. Purchases??
Are you saying that the US government in plain view of everyone will manipulate spot silver prices downward to get a better price even though their increased demand should raise prices??? Please explain your rationale...
cyberbat
(7/29/02; 12:14:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 81769)
U.S. Silver purchase
Since the U.S. will be in the silver market buying silver for its' new bullion coin, look for the spot price to be way down until they are finished buying.
Cyberbat
TownCrier
(7/29/02; 12:10:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 81768)
Good weekly recap by WGCs Rhona O'Connell
http://www.usagold.com/wgc.html
Click the URL to read the particulars on DOW/gold market action and price movements, with an acompanying dow/gold chart.
O'Connell makes a good summary of affairs in this one statementafter heavy DOW losses to start the week:
"On balance, then, a week in which some of those who had turned to gold as a safe haven had good cause to use it ."
On another note, while reading a comment from this report, I was reminded how quickly and willingly a Congress may spring into action to pass new laws and to grow the size of government rather than to let the forces of free markets (such as we may still have) beat out their own rhythym as the very heart and center of our system of capitalism:
"...rapid passage through Congress of the legislation to tighten market regulations was, to some extent, a soothing factor (although it did little to mollify a determinedly bearish NASDAQ market) . The bill will bring self-regulation in the accounting industry to an end, with the establishment of a new board with authority over the industry ..."
Therefore, where gold is concerned, never be caught assuming yours is the last word. Call Centennial and ask your broker about an additional diversification means to limit potential government intrusion into the value and security of your gold holdings. (Keyword: pre-33s -- to get both value AND quantity for your buying dollar).
R.
Gandalf the White
(7/29/02; 11:58:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 81767)
THANK YOU, Sir "Nation of One"
a nation of one (7/29/02; 11:24:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 81766)
a strange occurrence ---
===
You MADE my Day !
<;-)
a nation of one
(7/29/02; 11:24:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 81766)
a strange occurrence
This morning, while on my walk, as I passed a tree I heard a noise. Sure it was some cat counting its bird bones, or a wandering dog relaxing with a good cigar, I gave it no mind. But then there was a sigh, almost human, though extremely quiet, and so I looked. At the base of the tree, just to the other side of one of its larger roots, I could barely see two small projections sticking up like fingernail clippings. This was curious. I could not imagine what it was. So I took a step or two, to see. And there was -to my complete astonishment- a very small animal (smaller than the end of my smallest finger), brown, with hooves and a tail, and what I had thought were fingernail clippings were its horns. At first I thought it was the devil. But it was a minuscule bull. Was this an omen, I wondered. Was the spirit world trying to tell me something about my recent gold investments? It was then that I saw that it had wings. Never before in my long life had I ever come upon a fairy, and I am certain that I never shall again. But this one was just sitting there, vulnerable to the world, with its magic wand broken, trying to repair it. "What are you?" I asked, carelessly. "Can't you see, you idiot? I am the Bull Fairy! Mover of markets! And, in addition, inspirer of numerous miscellaneous ruminant large animals." Still not constrained enough, on account of my surprise, I asked, "What are you doing here?" "I am trying to fix my damned wand!" I was going to ask what had happened to it, but the Bull Fairy voluteered the answer. "I was minding my own business, making a certain market go up, when, quite unexpectedly, as I was flailing my magic wand about, it got stuck in a bevy of bears." "A bevy?" I asked. Never had I known that bears traveled in bevies. I thought they used SUVs, like everyone else. "Yes, a bevy," the Bull Fairy said. "Bears go in bevies don't you know? As far as I'm concerned they do. Anyway, there I was, flicking the market upward -gold it was, aye, it was the market for gold- and five or six of 'em, the bears I mean, singing and dancing drunkenly from wild overindulgence, gathered round me all menacingly, and the biggest one, whom the others called 'Morgan,' grabbed my wand out of my hands and broke it." "Dreadful!" I responded, "What happened then?" "Not much. The shock stole my balance, I fell over, and landed by this tree." I looked up into the branches overhead to see, but there were no bears there. "They're not up there, stupid," the Bull Fairy said. "They're dimensions away by now, probably attending a ball game or something." By then, he (or 'it' I should say perhaps) had finished repairing the wand. "What will you do now," I said. "Why, go back to work! There's so much to do, you would never believe it. First I shall gather about me all my tools, good news for gold, bad news for stocks, declining currencies, extreme public debt, precipitous financial institutions, and so forth, and get gold moving up again." "How long will it take?" "Not long. Just you watch!" It said this with intensity and conviction. Inspired once again in my feelings about the bright future for gold, I blinked, smiled very, very slightly, said goodbye, turned, and proceded on my way, which, as destiny would have it, ended here, at my desk, where I immediately reached for my PC and began entering this into it, because I thought you should know.
USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc.
(7/29/02; 11:06:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 81765)
Another day, another dollar -- the fruit of your labor
http://www.usagold.com/ProductsPage.html
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