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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 9/29/2001 All times are U.S. Mountain Time (Yesterday's Discussion.) TEX (9/29/01; 23:59:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 62688) Henri msg#: 72573 Sorry Sir Henri......just kidding around. Baby's gonna have to keep her old clod hoppers for some time to come! LeSin (9/29/01; 22:24:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 62687) Corrections Sorry for sloppy and poor English."tha" = the"events" I refer, your statement "our events" - What do you mean by "our events" it is clear what the "events" are that have transpired,yes. Sir FOA/TG but what do you make reference to?"S" LeSin (9/29/01; 22:16:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 62686) Timing of - "Winds of Change" & "Political Will" TG/FOA - Welcome Home/Back!Grateful to tha Almighty God (The Only Living God) that you were not a victim of tragic towers attack.I would, as most here, would be grateful for a response and clarification of your following statement:"Truly, this is an unspeakable turn of events and only moves our events timetable that much further ahead."What events?How much furter ahead?Why?Yours Sincerely ---- "S" Mr Gresham (9/29/01; 21:39:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 62685) Money supply growth http://www.stls.frb.org/images/publications/usfd/page2.gif Here's the Fed figures of late.Good to see FOA safely back home.The Doug Noland piece last night showed Moody's and Fitch dealing with having to re-rate derivatives based on (1) mutual fund fee cash flows, (2) lodging REITs, (3) airline debts, (4) car rental cash flows, (5) cruise line debts, (6)aircraft lease portfolios, (7)airport bonds. And the "insurers" of all the above, like AMBAC and MBIA. Just the craziest picture of financial idiocy one could ever imagine.I'll bet two years ago I could have "structured" a deal to "package" Frequent Flyer miles into a futures derivative based on expected passenger levels ahead... SteveH (9/29/01; 21:15:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 62684) Who owns the media http://www.njournalg.com/editorial/1999/11/jackson_who_owns_media.html Interesting. 1996? So, along with everything else that began then, so did the consolidation of ownership of the media. Simply Me (9/29/01; 20:23:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 62683) (No Subject) @ auspec:Collectible coins are not getting rare at all...slabbed or otherwise. The coin dealers you are hearing from are just trying to get their names on your list of folks to call when you get laid off and desparate to sell your coin collection at any price to pay the rent.Small to mid-level coin dealers are now trying to change over their inventories to accomodate the market they see ahead. Too many are still overloaded with State Quarter garbage (bank rolls, albums, and the ultimate trash...State Quarter Maps!). It's time to turn the trash into cash (all kinds of bargains on quarters, clad coins and commems. They'll need ready cash to buy the collections and the occassional treasure that they know will come out of the closet when rent money gets scarce. @Black BladeThanks!simply Hydro (9/29/01; 19:47:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 62682) Negative reinforcement for suicidal terrorists Investor's Business Daily mentioned the 1939 movie "The Real Glory", in which Gary Cooper and David Niven were helping Filipinos counter suicidal Muslims. Cooper draped a captured Muslim in the skin of a pig and announced that all slain Muslim rebels would be buried in pig skins. By Islamic law, this prevents entry to Paradise. The tide then turned to the Filipino's favor. It would be easy to adapt that policy to our current situation:What a fitting memorial: a rebuilt WTC, featuring display cases holding every terrorist we can get our hands on, or their remains, with each one pumped full of formaldehyde and wrapped in his or her very own pig skin - forever! I expect that would certainly offset any wacko expectation of 70 virgins in a nonexistent "paradise". Mr Gresham (9/29/01; 19:26:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 62681) Did I just see what I saw? "Gold Trail Update (9/29/01; 16:52:02MDT - Msg ID:62670)The Gold Trail Discussion has been Updated"brb uponroof (9/29/01; 19:11:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 62680) Islam /USA and London http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2001330021-2001335716,00.html Well, against my better judgement, I just did a search on 'terrorist' at various papers. In a nutshell I found some fairly unbelievable reports...a Miami fireman, who is a Muslim, refused to drive his firetruck because it had an American flag on it. He loyalties to those of Islamic decent. A New York cable station that refused to show the American flag for fear of appearance being biased.WOW! My friends, I think this 'new world' will be void of political correctness as the outrage of showing too much tolerance is now sickening to even the most liberal in our decaying society. There is a silver lining: Look for PC levels to be adjusted rather quickly.Also,During the searches checked the Times of London. It is obvious that the London and European press are far ahead of our pathetic filtering 'news services' here in the USA. London is a hotbed for Middle East interests as the Banking system there, which controls the world, is being used by the oil rich arab nations. With this friendly arab arragement comes 'friends of friends' who bring their friends, and pretty soon the terrorists are living amongst the bankers in London. During their stay they were kind enough to tip off their friends (who weren't terrorists) that the attack was coming and they should short certain stocks to get rich. Unbelievable! The link above is to the Times which reports the Italian Secret Service predicting 30 more attacks upon the West.The London papers are far ahead regarding terrorism. Forget the domestic 'clip artists'. Go to London papers to get the breaking news.Be very happy you are among the few who have gold, at this point in time, for a pittance of what it will be most likely be very soon.******************************Should be a good fight tonight. Philly homeboy Bernard Hopkins goin up against Felix Trinidad. Both are champions and both are low blow artists/street wise. If Hopkins (3-1 underdog) can't take him out inside of 7 or 8 rounds Tito will win. Congrats BEERMAN. Galearis (9/29/01; 19:02:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 62679) @ slingshot It never hurts to remind everyone that Islamic fundamentalists can consider members of their own group as infidels if they do not measure up to the stringent ideals of their own created image of it. So one has the interesting situation developing in Pakistan and other M.E. states of potential civil war between factions within these countries. This is ONE of the reasons that there is some support for the United States in its general "war" on terrorism. As long as the US and all its allies walk a VERY careful and tactful line around the religious component(s) of this conflict, we all may just have a just solution to this for the future.Christians can demonstrate these same excesses of hostilities - and may not even be literalists or fundamentalists.Just a thought...G. Canuck (9/29/01; 19:02:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 62678) The bottom line From the 1998 interview with Bin Laden:- Bin Laden claimed the United States has carried out the ``biggest theft in history'' by buying oil from Persian Gulf countries at low prices. According to bin Laden, a barrel of oil today should cost $144. Based on that calculation, he said, the Americans have stolen $36 trillion from Muslims and they owe each member of the faith $30,000. ``Do you want (Muslims) to remain silent in the face of such a huge theft?'' bin Laden said. --------------------------------------------------------The bottom line, common denominator in all of this is oil, always has been, always will be.The religious twist, the 'jahad' thing, and everything else in a symptom of and not the cause of todays problems. Galearis (9/29/01; 18:49:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 62677) @ Netking Thanks for your response. I agree completely with your words.It never hurts to repeat that when a manipulated commodity market blows up, it does so when the damage to supply becomes so severe that it is then and only then that the wheels come off. I think this will be the case in the pms market and it would serve us all best to perhaps not watch the paper spot market, which will snail-like inch its slimy way up, but to try to look for the strains and cracks coming when those who truly USE the metal come to reach out for it and find a hole.What was the latest expression to describe this event. Oh yes, the mushroom cloud. Maximum damage and maximum trauma.So putting my actions with my words I went out today and did my duty to myself and the future of civilization and bought more bullion. Silver under $5 is still dirt cheap. Even fifty or so ouces per month adds up.And trust me, those reaching hands will not be getting MY silver anytime soon!Yup.G. auspec (9/29/01; 18:43:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 62676) Solicitations I have been receiving phone calls as well as mail offering to appraise and buy my coins. Anyone else? Coins getting harder to find? BR549 (9/29/01; 18:30:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 62675) One of the core meanings of Islam is peace. Therefore, the inhumane and horrific events at the World Trade Center which caused innocent casualties - including many Muslim victims - is clearly, without a doubt, completely un-Islamic. http://thetruereligion.org/usattack.htm The Stranger (msg#: 62671)---"For reasons I have already given, I don't believe Ashcroft's claim that "these hijackers grossly perverted the Islamic faith"."It is inconceivable that the religion of Islam, which takes its teachings from the noble Prophets such as Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad - peace be upon all of them - would ever teach terrorism or suicide missions. In reality, Islam not only condemns terrorism and suicide missions, but also prohibits them completely. Thus, many Muslim nations, organizations, and communities all around the world have condemned such actions, hoping never to see its like again. The yellow journalism of the media showing the views of a small group of Palestinians (mostly children), who have been terrorized for years, does not represent the true feelings of Muslims worldwide. "Link after link shows that Islamic faith is good in its teachings and does not believe in suicide or terrorism. The small minority that does believe terrorist's murders are justified because of the Islam religion do not agree with Ashcroft that "hijackers grossly perverted the Islamic faith". If you are saying that this justification for suicide terrorism dates from 1,300 years ago is, IMHO, "perverted" and frightening to both Muslims and non-Muslims. The Koran reflects peace, not violence.But of course, like the terrorists, your thoughts are in the vast minority of the Islam religion, thank God. This new war of the 21st Century is not about religion, it is about the eradication of a very small band of cowardly murderers whose destiny, like Timothy McVeigh's, is they will be eradicated, regardless of whether they are religious or not. BR549 slingshot (9/29/01; 18:20:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 62674) Who are the bad guys? Todays posts are educational to say the least. A mix of politics and religion that reflects who we are in life.So, Who are the bad people? Are we to suspect all Muslims are bad for they follow the Koran? Is it that the fear is because the Koran says to kill the infidel and all of a sudden we are going to have Muslims all over the world killing in the name of Allah? Well I put tht right up there with the Pope saying I'm going to Hell for whatever I do not agree with the church.We have a large Arab community where I live. In fact our town could be called a Heinz 57. Yes we have our sub-standard humans. Thats where I place these terrorist. There actions speak for them. They kill innocents without reguard for human life. To clarify my position. I am for killing TERRORIST and making them unable to wage their type of war.Now I think I'm going to take a beating on this, but keep this in mind.During the Vietnam War, the same person giving you a haircutduring the day, was shooting at you at night.How do YOU determine the bad guy? By his actions or his faith?Slingshot The Stranger (9/29/01; 17:43:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 62673) Muslims Buying Gold Well, for one thing, BR, I don't believe the article provides much in the way of evidence that Muslim terrorists pervert their faith. On the other hand, as I said before, there is plenty of material in the Koran which encourages such behavior. Wouldn't it be nice if a groundswell of public opinion would arise in the Middle East against these barbarians, leading to their arrest and punishment. I'm not holding my breath.The implications for gold, meanwhile, are potentially earth-shaking. Terrible tragedy that it was, the destruction of the twin towers is being seen by many Muslims as the pretext the West will use to invade their lands and threaten their way of life. Uncertain about the stability of their own money, and unwilling to hold dollars anymore, many are turning to gold. At least, that is what I am reading.I don't know how this "war" is going to be contained. Things don't look too promising as far as I'm concerned. Netking (9/29/01; 17:16:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 62672) Galearis - Ag Sir Galearis(62669)- On Debka: You may be 100% right on some stories from them or anybody else with their sources feeding from those operating in the field, I would include in this analysis BBC, CNN & Reuters etc . . . my own thoughts have been to look at each story on a case by case basis. Usually we will have some pieces of the jagsaw already, so if a story appears the "doesn't sit right" we'll soon now yes. - You are 100% right about the PRC & Ag, it's Ag concentrate to a large extent imported by them, refined & then re-exported largely as a value added process rather than a net export. Media dis-information such that it is highlights the exports of refined Ag and not any imports of Ag concentrates yes! Their refiners are very efficient.- Ag under I/II-WTC, when are we going to see this inventory, 6 months? . . . maybe 12+?(rhetorical). I see W.M. may get the contract of the grim task of clearing the mountain of rubble above & below ground, I heard rumours that even with the heavy stuff moving in it would be one year+ maybe. - There are those who say the POS will go vertical overnight, it may, but I am inclined to think we will re-visit each support & resistance level again . . . even if very briefly so. It's been predicted in recent weeks $10.00/Oz by Spring next year, I don't have a problem with that . . . but I don't expect fireworks until we all but run out of physical, the paper market (including short selling & leasing)is insatiable. I believe we are getting close, VERY close to the time though, when that happens there will come a separation of the paper & physical markets, there has to. One market will be able to supply at any price agreed to, the other market will NOT be able to supply at any price agreed to . . . the two different markets will come to reflect this differential yes. Many more seen to be accumulating physical these days, especially now. Must go now to collect my daughter, ariving back from o/seas school trip. - Netking The Stranger (9/29/01; 17:09:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 62671) BR549 For reasons I have already given, I don't believe Ashcroft's claim that "these hijackers grossly perverted the Islamic faith". Gold Trail Update (9/29/01; 16:52:02MDT - Msg ID:62670) The Gold Trail Discussion has been Updated The Gold Trail Discussion has been updated. Click on the link to read the latest updates. Galearis (9/29/01; 16:07:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 62669) @Simply Me & Netking re Debkar tabloid news and.... USAGOLD has been inaccessible for me this AM so this post is very late getting on.... In the spring this year I peeked into Debka.com and read therein about the preparations of M.E. war - Iraq mobilizing troops on the border, Egypt doing same etc. etc. and none of this happened. It was soon obvious that the site was one of the tabloid ones and only suitable for those who like propaganda scares. They should go hardcopy publication so they can get this stuff near supermarket check-out lines. As I said last week, it is the time for media disinformation, which for us means believe little of what we hear. This now includes mainstream media. I CONsider everything I read in the same way as goldbugs receive anti-gold biased articles. EVERYBODY LIES! Moreso in these turbulent times. More on topic of pms: If 100 million oz of silver is unavailable to COMEX under the WTC and this represents most of the above ground supplies left (we ignore all that nonsense about China supplying any to the market, yes?): is the increasing volatility in silver right now due to short covering, or those in the know quietly accumulating what little there is to get? One would expect when a market instantly runs out of something like this (for 8 to 12 months, or more - considering the flooding (?) problem complication) that silver would be going straight up! No limit-ups and market level only trades allowed are also driving the lazy rise of spot. How many are taking delivery? Or are we beginning to see paper discounts also impacting on all this. What else, if little or none of the stops can be filled? Netking, what think ye?G. G. BR549 (9/29/01; 16:05:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 62668) What don't you believe? The Stranger (msg#: 62666)---I'm sorry I don't understand. You don't believe that the modern terrorism of a minority of some Muslims dates from the early 80's or you don't believe that the referenced article accurately describes how a few have twisted the religion of Islam to justify their own heinous acts?BR549 AbsoluteX (9/29/01; 15:39:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 62667) OIL 144$ http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010928/wl/bin_laden_s_words_2.html According to bin Laden, a barrel of oil today should cost $144. The Stranger (9/29/01; 14:14:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 62666) BR549 Well, I read it, but I don't believe it. The prophet Mohammed had numerous non-believers murdered during his lifetime, including an octagenarian woman who was tied to two camels and rent in two. What's more, the Koran gives dozens of examples where Mohammed ordered his followers to attack those who do not practice Islam, not in self-defense, necessarily, but only because they are "infidels".I'm afraid that people who seek to redefine Islam based upon 21st Century sensibilities turn a deaf ear to the teachings of the Koran and ignore 1300 years of history. (See Rockgrabber (9/29/01; 12:10:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 62656, below). Maybe now, finally, well-meaning Muslims will decide enough is enough and finally act upon these outrages against humanity. So far, though, signs are not promising. Not only are most Muslim countries leaving the fight against Bin Laden up to the West, they are even refusing to allow the West the use of territory from which to wage this decidedly UN-holy war. Meanwhile, millions of their citizens cheer Bin Laden in the streets. Belgian (9/29/01; 14:09:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 62665) Humans ? All those ideologies, religions, conflicts, brave wise men (women), wars, humuliations, etc...are finally converting into these basic economical desires of human specy. In revieuwing, many documentaries (on tele) of the past 30 years...the economic (underlying) aspect is always the basic motive for dramatic actions. I do repeat * ALWAYS * !But very often, this economic motive, is pushed far away, from the problem-nucleus, as a too trivial and unworthy justification for cruel acts. Ignoring this desire for economic participation, conquest for leadership, makes allpeacefull settlement, impossible. There must always be an ultimate winner who has the right to take it all. Destructive competition instead of constructive participation where the best deserves to be the most rewarded. This idea, originally, made the industrial revolution a temporary succes.What if suddenly an american giant (or global coalition) should stand up and ask, bravely, the M.E. islamists, why they committed such atrocities and how this could be avoided for the future ? The communist beast could develop itself so far away from any reasonable solution, that nuclear escalation and economic isolation, were permanently responsible for fear and imbalance. Today, with 3 (relative) economic-stable blocks (US/Europ/Japan)out of 5 (+ Russia/ME)...such a great gesture would make a chance to be succesfull. Throwing away the double-standard practices and ego's, all together, at once.Sure, must be dreaming...but we only have that caliber of leadership that we wished for. The complacent and indifferent masses are only to be represented by their common denominator. What does it take to make those great personalities to arise so suddenly ? Exactly, more, much more trouble and misery ! And here we come again at that basic economic motive ...poverty and deprivation and exclusivity. Is it this process that is taking place (starting) ? Or are we going to learn to live with a lowered level of terror-risk as we lived with communism / drugs / chineze fear...etc ? Aren't we reaching the limits of moral obscenety, by shipping and dropping (US-UN) food + medication, before possible attacks on Afghanistan ? Or is this also easely to be justified and responsible acting ?This globe is under the anaesthetical influence of subtle and general * Media-Guidance * ! We are to become "webbed" and "teled".A very modern-advanced, variant of indoctrination and cloning.Spontanious eruptions of indignation are impossible and improbable. The rulers can rule more freely than ever.Patriottized ? Am I a lone, impotent, desert-voice or is there a conscious minority, that has growing chances in these so called pieces of free world ? I do really wonder ?All this does so wonderfully fits with the glowing yellow. Netking (9/29/01; 14:02:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 62664) Al Qaeda & Iraq http://debka.com/ Debka intelligence update reports major clash between US Special Forces and Taliban Troops with Afghan casualties said heavy against a low number of US wounded . . . reports appear to indicate a number of ground forces already in place inside border ready to move further inland after air activity.D.I also reports 200 Taliban fighters reaching North Iraqi in mid-July were in fact members of Bin Laden's Al Qaeda. They came in response to an Iraqi offer to train Al Qaeda terrorist personnel in the use of chemical and biological warfare weapons. In northern Iraq, the men underwent a secret intensive course at the hands of Iraqi army experts and instructors in the operation, by three- or four-men squads, of bombs and explosives containing chemical and biological material. . .------------------------------------------------------------I guess if this does implicate Iraq for the war against terrorist activity then what does . . .Have a great weekend all, take care & keep dreaming golden dreams. - regards Netking Voyager (9/29/01; 13:33:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 62663) by Bob Chapman - from International Forcaster U.S. MARKETSAll the terrorist attacks in the world and all the wars are not going to cover up what the elitists have done. They have pulled the biggest stock scam in history. They have created the biggest financial bubbles in history. Who are they? They are Alan Greenspan and the Fed, the FOMC, the major investment banks and brokerage houses, the media, particularly CNBC, our government, full of kept disgraces to humanity, and the secret organizations to which they all belong. US markets have now lost over $10 trillion and we just began stage 2 of a 3-stage collapse. The markets were deliberately taken up to enrich the elitists’, giving them even more power and we can promise you they are short on the way down. The goal is the financial rape of the American public, depression and war and from this they can synthesize a New World Order. The creation of a giant gambling casino was created to draw the suckers, naive Americans, into what they thought was a never-ending game called, prosperity. Once they had 55% of the public hooked they pulled the rug from beneath their feet and forced the market to collapse. The next step was the terrorist incident that was to cover the collapse of the market. We began writing about this possibility in April of 2000, when we predicted the collapse of world stock markets. There are no coincidences. The elitists have used the same formula in many ways to keep mankind subjected for the past 1,000 years. Never do you hear anything or see anything in the US media regarding the elitists’ manipulation of the gold market. The bozos paraded across CNBC everyday and quoted in press and financial publications won't even admit we are in a bear market. They are too busy appealing to the patriotism of decent Americans so they can relieve them of more of their assets and then send their children off to make-believe wars to have them slaughtered and returned home in body bags. Americans, you are being deceived by your leadership in government and business. Two years from now we'll be in a contrived depression with several wars raging simultaneously. You will be stripped of your constitutional rights and the new Homeguard will strip you of your weapons. Americans just keep doing what you are doing and we'll guarantee your slavery. You just don't get it. How can 98.2% of market experts be so wrong about the market? This is not a coincidence. Remember the market had been going down for 16 months and a few experts discovered there was anything really wrong. You have been had, you are in denial and you are demoralized. You are frozen in the headlights. Get out of the market while you still have some assets left. If you are not a trader in commodities or indexes or in precious metals stocks, get out, losses or no losses. God is not going to keep our freedom for us; we have to defend it and our assets and families ourselves. The market itself is nowhere near capitulation. The investment public, who should have never been in the market in the first place, because it wasn't suitable, has now been distracted by the patriotic show. We'll stick together and be good Americans while Wall Street walks off with our assets. The mainline entertainers put on their shows and likewise our politicians and the investors and the public are lulled into a stupor. The elitists know exactly what you are going to do before you do it. You are going into a cocoon disturbed with your stock market losses and stop consuming. As you get laid off you won't be able to pay your mortgage and debts and two of the last three bubbles will be broken. The real estate and debt bubbles. You are very predictable. Your leaders know what you'll do and that is why they don't want to be blamed for your stock market losses. They are going to save you from those mad Muslim fundamentalists. These are the same people who are saving you from higher gold prices by selling 87% of America's gold reserves, while you slept. You had best be vigilant or you'll lose everything, even perhaps your life. The Stranger (9/29/01; 13:26:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 62662) BR549 and tedw BR549 - Thanks, I'll check it out right away.tedw - Sorry, make that "quotes", not "parnetheses". (My mind must be slipping fast!). Like you, perhaps, I have a strong belief in the power of faith. What I don't have, however, is an abiding faith in the power of human perception. My post was meant to be sarcastic but not offensive. I hope you understand.Yours,TheStranger Black Blade (9/29/01; 13:13:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 62661) Gold Mart Sees Y2K Flashback in Hoarding http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/010929/business_bizgoldcoins_dc_1.html Snippit:NEW YORK (Reuters) - Nervous investors have been snapping up gold coins like hot cakes since the deadly attacks on New York and Washington rocked global financial markets and sparked a rush for hard assets that might retain value. U.S. gold dealers and analysts say coins are a good gauge of overall investor interest in bullion, the price of which jumped some 8 percent in the days after the hijacked airliners leveled the World Trade Center and part of the Pentagon.Black Blade: Accumulate while still cheap. BR549 (9/29/01; 13:00:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 62660) "There is a growing realization that the men who brought down the twin towers put Islam in peril. Only Muslims can redeem it." http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-kramer091901.shtml The Stranger (msg#: 62655)---"Unfortunately, our new Attorney General doesn't explain how he feels the letter perverts Islam. Do you happen to know?"I dislike the phrase that Islam has been "hijacked" but try the above link for a great description of how it has been."A new era had begun — an era in which Muslim extremists interpreted their faith as a license to kill foreign "enemies of God." Radical Muslim clerics scoured Islam's sacred texts for justifications of violence, and found them. In the years to come, the clerics and the terrorists widened their license. At first, it included only "intruders" in Muslim lands: foreign forces, embassies, and civilians. Later it was extended to include "enemy" installations in third countries, and finally, civilians in the "lands of unbelief." No moral red line could stop the escalation. In a parallel process, suicide operations became a matter of routine. Suicide is forbidden in Islam. Back in 1983, only a handful of radical clerics were prepared to classify kamikaze-type acts as deeds of "self-martyrdom," guaranteeing immediate entry to Paradise. After the first operations, an intense debate ensued over religious law, some clerics ruling in favor of the tactic and many against. "Since suicide is forbidden in Islam then therefore suicide by terrorist is indeed a cowardly act. Do you agree?Regards,BR549 Rockgrabber (9/29/01; 12:27:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 62659) Great we have a Religious War, and a Drug War This is a religious war. They may call it a war on terrorism, but it is a war on Islam. Look how fast we our now willing to give up our basic rights, in the name of terror. We are willingly being ushered into The New World Order. This is a war that will terrorize us into complete subjection of our so called world money masters. Read the posted article that fallows **Why America Has Already Lost the War**. Black Blade (9/29/01; 12:21:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 62658) RE: simply me I wouldn't be too concerned about the bogus coup story. One must first realize that the debka site is based in Israel and is naturally biased and not likely to post a positive (or even true) story on their neighbors in the ME. I was rather skeptical about the story from the beginning, especially knowing of the origins of the debka site. I looked and could not find any "credible" corrobative news from any other mainstream news organization. It only confirmed the obvious. Cheers!- Black Blade Rockgrabber (9/29/01; 12:16:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 62657) **Why America Has Already Lost the War** http://www.israelnationalnews.com/article.php3?id=544&PHPSESSID=f17a92153c3d4f2a43c986e820cc03c9 We are putting a horrible spin on what this is really about. Great reading here. Rockgrabber (9/29/01; 12:10:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 62656) JIHAD-the Islamic "Holy War"- What is it?- http://www.watch.org/showart.php3?idx=16873&rtn=/articles.html&showsubj=1&mcat=1 For a better perpective into what we are getting into. This is good reading. As is the previous posted article. The Stranger (9/29/01; 11:38:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 62655) BR549 Unfortunately, our new Attorney General doesn't explain how he feels the letter perverts Islam. Do you happen to know? The Stranger (9/29/01; 11:31:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 62654) tedw You'll notice I put "the Creator" in parentheses. BR549 (9/29/01; 11:06:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 62653) A "stark reminder of how these hijackers grossly perverted the Islamic faith to justify their terroristic acts." http://foxnews.com/story/0,2933,35284,00.html A "how to manual" for murder left behind by one of the criminals of 911."According to the translation, the document says "Know that the gardens of paradise are waiting for you in all their beauty, and the women of paradise are waiting, calling out, 'Come hither, friend of God.' They have dressed in their most beautiful clothing.""Do not seem confused or show signs of nervous tension," reads the translated text. "Be happy, optimistic calm because you are heading for a deed that God loves and will accept [as a good deed]." The manual says that the follower should pray as he sets foot on the plane and again as he sits down, remembering "that this is a battle for the sake of God."And for the moments just before impact, the document contains this message: "When the hour of reality approaches, the zero hour ... wholeheartedly welcome death for the sake of God. Always be remembering God. Either end your life while praying, seconds before the target, or make your last words: 'There is no God but God, Muhammad is His messenger.'"The first four pages of both documents are handwritten on large paper and relate some basic Islamic history about the prophet taking on infidels, according to the Times. They also contain supplications such as, "Oh Lord, take your anger out on them [the enemy] and we ask You to protect us from their evils."A voyage into the perverted sick minds of suicidal cowards.BR549 tedw (9/29/01; 10:46:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 62652) Big mistake http://www.usagold.com StrangerYou mistake the Creator for "religion". Dont judge God by religion or Christ by "Christians" , or Moses by "Jews", or Mohammed by "Muslims".The problem is not "religion". The problem is phony hypocritical religion. "Many will come in my name and lead many astray"-JC BR549 (9/29/01; 10:45:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 62651) Aye me hardies! Thar's gold in them thar Canadian woods. Hipplebeck (9/29/01; 10:42:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 62650) a few observations 1. The US government and the Fed are going to make everone whole, no matter what the cost or moral hazard. That spells the end of the dollar.2.There is no rush to get Bin Laden, the longer it takes the longer they can hold him up as a reason to take freedoms away, and push forward the new world order.3.It is becoming obviously clear that the government really has no clue who was responsible for the terrorism on the WTC and pentagon. How many stolen identities? Obvious false clues left lying around. The fbi as usual is inept.It doesn't really matter if they have no proof of who did it, they will use circumstances to their own advantages. Old Yeller (9/29/01; 10:36:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 62649) Big government is back http://www.economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=804628 Are they going to use this moment in history constructively or destructively? There's an awful lot of off-shore dollars,nervously waiting this one out. The Stranger (9/29/01; 08:10:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 62648) tedw Given the role of religion in this and just about every other violent conflict in the world, let's hope "the Creator" stays out of it. The Stranger (9/29/01; 08:04:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 62647) Alan Abelson in Barron's "We simply don't think the price of creating, nurturing and flaunting the greatest bubble in stock-market history -- now, sigh!, a mere memory -- has been met, with stocks still selling at well over 20 times earnings and the market 130% of GDP. Despite the destruction of Nasdaq and the major hits to the Dow and the S&P, to put it another way, stocks still aren't cheap. Until they are, the bear market won't call it quits." A Canadian (9/29/01; 07:30:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 62646) NEW VERSE FOR A GREAT TUNE I was gonna buy some gold but instead I got highwas gonna do what I was told but instead I got highNow my stocks ain't worth a damned and I know why...YAHIt's cuz I got high...cuz I got high...cuz I got high Netking (9/29/01; 07:22:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 62645) A Canadian / Ted W / Belgian A Canadian(62640): I woould compare the atomic mass of wood v's that of Au with some physics calculations (grin). . . .Ted W(62642): Good comment Sir, this appears to be the line being drawn in the sand and the basis on MO appearing in policy.Belgian(62644)- optimists? or astute realists . . .- Netking Belgian (9/29/01; 07:17:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 62644) 9 Months...the mother of all cycles ...? Stockmarket indexes are attempting to show some kind of 9 month cycle, basing (intermediate bottom) signs. A technical pauze and possible consolidation, before we embark on the next 9 months of downride. The bottoming-pauze, might be the result of shortcovering from the financial movers.Study of "The nature of money" John Kutyn, gave me Bank-Fear-itis. Got a better insight of how these banksters work and move to maximize their endangering profits. Frightening ! Today, I witness, how, here down in europ, many politicians start, increasingly, taking up seats in bank-manipulated public companies, that are already paralysed and need public-money, assistance. Politics and banksters together into the plunder of the general naive and greedy public. Systematically. Telco's...Air companies...Insurances Co...and now small nasduck new high techs. (cfr. Bloomberg art.-Sourdough).A global welfare-state in the making, from Tokyo over Brussels to New York ? All aspects of mis-management, cushionned, into the belly/womb of mother state. Just to keep things going. Always postponing the recovery, with that same unashamed conviction.How much unemployment can the world take as it is now, with debtgrowth >> profitgrowth ? At what unemployment % does the breaking point manifests itself, with extra-ordinarry measures ? How will the bulk of boomers react when they see their (presumed-future) standard of living, melt away ?I desperately need some real *optimists* for counterbalance, with solid arguments...where are they ? A Canadian (9/29/01; 06:50:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 62643) HEY CANUCK! Finally, Someone as crazy as I am! (crazy like a fox) although my "burial" is not as elaborate. I prefer my stash within gunsight. We Quebecers get the added bonus of political uncertainty to stinky monetary policy which adds to the compulsion to STASH..STASH..STASH. Now that my stock market genius friends are sniffing around for rent paying loans I take delight in confessing that I am poor and stupid. All I have is this worthless shovel! Live long and prosper my brother. tedw (9/29/01; 06:41:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 62642) Will the war on terrorism become a war with Islam? http://www.usagold.com That is the question for our times, I believe. There is no doubt that terrorist enjoy a significant amount of support in Muslim countries. How much I dont know, but it is certainly significant, judging from the demonstrations and interviews. In the occupied territories and Lebanon, there is no doubt a significant amount of support for terrorists. Perhaps a majority. Lebanon, Iran, and Syria support these groups and would probably even object to them being called terrorists. There is extreme danger that this "war" could become allout war between the muslim world and the west. What does the United States do about the Hezbollah, and the radical groups in the west bank and Lebanon? Look the other way?And if we attack these groups then what will be the response of the rest of the Muslim world?The split in the House of Saud is symptomatic of the problem. How long will we enjoy the support of King Faud?How long will he live? Anwar Sadat, a good man I believe, shows you what happens when an Islamic leader takes a stand on principle. How many more Anwar Sadats will we have? Can the masses of Islam be hypnotized into believing that the Great Satan is hell bent on destroying Islam? Maybe.George W. Bush has a tough road ahead of him. Let us hope the Creator blesses him with great wisdom, for all our sakes. Canuck (9/29/01; 06:12:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 62641) @ Canadian & How to hide gold Saw your post buddy on the 'ex'. My best friend left a paper trail miles long and was recently scorched by his ex. I had told him to bury some silver but he didn't listen....A couple years ago I took my chainsaw up to great-grandfathers farm and buzzed out a pie shaped wedge about 6 inches by 6 inches by a foot-and-a-half long out of a monster oak tree. I knocked off the end of the wedge and placed a sealed glass container into the tree. The partial wedge was placed back into the hole. Last year I was back and the wedge had started to heal over. I was again back a couple weeks ago and you can't tell where the cut was at all. The 'golden tree' as I call it now. Last year I took another sealed glass container and cemented it with (3) one foot metal rods and throw it into the lake. The fishfinder shows it in 19 feet of water. The rods were placed in the cement block approximately 120 degrees opposed in case the block rolled over or in case it gets partially buried. Diving was fun this summer checking out for treasure. Jacques Cousteau was I.My 2 teenage children are the only people who know of the maps. Verbal instructions given to the kids last year combined with the maps are the only way to find the gold. Anyone gaining access to the box alone will be lead on a wild goose chase. The kids have not seen the maps (safety deposit box) but I told them the box is willed to them. The second deposit box, which I haven't told them about is stuffed with silver. I'm not worried about confiscation of silver. I have the gold and silver and when I die bury me under the old oak tree and the kids get the stash, the 'ex' gets jack, nadda, zilch!!Saturday morning and a golden week-end to all. A Canadian (9/29/01; 05:39:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 62640) QUESTION: OPEN TO ALL HOW MUCH WOOD WOULD A WOODCHUCK CHUCK IF A WOODCHUCK COULD CHUCK GOLD? Belgian (9/29/01; 05:02:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 62639) Responses Max Rabbitz (62577):sorry for being late but had some serious brainstorming, overnight, about 1.200 years of islam and the 30 years of past terror ! PPPFFFFFttttt...difficult stuff.Answer : Yes there are Intl. terrorist groups, already for a long time going in and out of this open-transit, lilliputan nation, with Brussels as European axis.But europ has already been dealing with much of the terror-aspects (islamic), in a completely different way (than US). See previous posts. But it is abslotulely evident that we are not perfect or mayby even better in handling it. Europ simply wants to avoid as much havac as possible ! The old continent was dog-tired of war and struggle, before it embarked on a sustained broad development. Vulnerability (euro) can be minimalized through the permanent will for constructive change (Old Yeller-Yes Sir !). Efforts to break religous fanatism open and invited for economic participance on an horizontal footing. (Revieuw euro's invitational character, versus dollar's hegemony and dominance allures).Gold is NOT dead, good man ! It was only sleeping (hibernating-?) . And I left the idea (finally) of ever reaching the 200$ valution, sorry, paperprice !Air psychosis : FWIW!!!!! = No more organised great scale attacks for the time being (intuition). Only probable imitation, amateuristic trials by some small pockets.There is now a general wait and see attitude. The psychosis-cultivators, have purposes for doing so.Islam is waiting for proposals and results. But that is another full chapter in full development now ! Jack Straw's lapsus, was not a lapsus, but a too early bird statement (Simply me/mother-congrat). Mis/dis-information is part of the (un-necessary) psychosis. Yes, Europ is flirting with M.E. and is (imvho) pushing for a Palestine state (not new), without connecting WTC-drama to it.I do refer to the official Saudi standpoint to the public, as a responsible member of the global economy (helpfull low POO) and the present counter-statement of POO=21$ too low !It this this dramatic shift in behaviour that is already in place since the (coincidal-?) birth of euro. Say "adios" to the camel-vieuw on oil and realize that crude is going to take a much more important role for islam, and consequently for global economics.Europ tried this same method of constructive embarkment of people with the African resources, but failed dramatically.Another factor is that Russia wants higher prices for its resources, as to be able to connect with the world again, by eleminating slowly the mafiosi aspect of the aparatischks hang over. Co-operation has a price for the crude consumers and carries an opportunity for further economic expansion (at least a start of it) Netking (9/29/01; 02:35:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 62638) Afghans arrest 5 U.S. scouts (special forces ) http://www.msnbc.com/news/627086.asp "Qatar's al-Jazeera television said on Saturday Afghan security forces near the border with Iran had arrested five members of American special forces who were carrying maps of sites related to Osama bin Laden's group . . . "-----------------------------------------------------------Also on the Afghan theme, the following piece on Osama bin Laden was written by 'Delphi Associates' in October 2000, nearly a year ago; " . . . remember that bin Laden worked for the CIA for many years, providing him with US [back-pack style] Stinger missiles that allowed him to completely nullify the air power of Russia during the Afghan War. One of the things that the United States rather uncomfortably doesn't tell you is that we gave Osama 300 stinger backpack rockets and he has, according to the last CIA estimates, about 167 left. With a team of fanatical, dedicated terrorists spread throughout the US near some of our major airports, bin Laden could completely shut down the aeronautical infrastructure of the US. . . "On bin Laden & nuclear weapons 'Delphi Associates' wrote October 2000; ". . . The $64,000 Question is, does Osama bin Laden have nuclear weapons? Yes, according to Sheik Kabbani. The main sources of Sheik Kabbani's information, as far as the Arab press is concerned seems to be the Saudi-owned al-Wasat newsmagazine, and al-Watan al-Arabi, which is close to Egyptian intelligence. "Sheik Kabbani claims that bin Laden bought "20 nuclear war heads" with opium money. Remember that the Russians "Lost" about 100 nuclear brief case bombs about 3 years ago, and it seems some of them wound up in bin Ladin's hands. This is reported as fact in mainstream news sources. For example, the Florida Times-Union (Jacksonville, FL) in a January 24, 1999 byline titled "More counter-terrorism funds urged. Clinton fears bin Laden, others growing bolder," writes:"The leader of a major Muslim organization in the US told a recent gathering at the State Department that bin Laden has already purchased nuclear warheads from the former Soviet Union. Sheik Muhammad Hisham Kabbani, chairman of the Islamic Supreme Council of America, said that bin Laden 'has used two tons of opium and $30 million to purchase over 20 nuclear warheads.' Kabbani said bin Laden also 'had hired an international team of rogue nuclear scientists working in a secret underground base to convert warheads stolen from former Soviet republics into miniature portable nuclear devices capable of striking targets around the globe.'(end)"-----------------------------------------------------------All FWIW. As we face the reality of growing economic & global uncertainty, there has never been a better time before to buy Gold, never! - regards Netking Netking (9/29/01; 01:32:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 62637) Jews and Moslem conflict - Is peace possible? http://www.israelnationalnews.com/article.php3?id=539 The following is part of transcript of last Fiday at the Sheikh ‘Ijlin mosque in Gaza, broadcast on Palestinian Authority television, on "The Jews and the Moslem conflict with them". When you read this (without any bias to either side) you see, that while nothing is impossible, the chances for peace in this region as very slim indeed. - Netking-----------------------------------------------------------". . . . About the Jews, . . . ."Allah has described them as donkeys who must carry the books of the Torah - but they have not carried them…. Allah is angry at them. They are cursed with the curse of Allah in this world and in the hereafter." Indeed, not just Jews, but in fact all "those who die not for the sake of Islam, after the deliverance of the message of the Prophet Muhammad... will end up in the fires of Hell…" However, Islam offers the Jews a way out, says Madhi, "we say to them out of friendship: ‘Oh Jews, come to your senses, return to the true faith; you must convert to Islam…’" In the meantime, continues the PA preacher, "Our belief is that this war, between us and the Jews, will continue to escalate until we vanquish the Jews and enter Jerusalem as conquerors, [and] enter Jaffa as conquerors . . . . " Simply Me (9/29/01; 00:55:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 62636) A reminder that you can't believe everything you read on the internet. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37459-2001Sep27.html The debka site (and, for that matter, any article you read whether it's on the internet or your local newspaper) should be read only with one eye on the words and one eye on the lookout for wartime propaganda and national agendas.My earlier post referring to deka's article about a coup in the Royal House of Saudi Arabia is apparently wrong. Here is info from a more recent article from the Washington Post.Ending Doubts, Saudis to Allow U.S. to Use BaseBy Howard SchneiderWashington Post Foreign ServiceFriday, September 28, 2001; Page A01 <snip>CAIRO, Sept. 27 -- Torn between the conservative religious leanings of its people and a desire to help in the war on terrorism, Saudi Arabia has signaled that it will permit U.S. troops and planes stationed on its soil to participate in military action against Osama bin Laden and his protectors in Afghanistan, according to senior U.S. officials.<unsnip><snip>Earlier Saudi misgivings about use of the kingdom's facilities had raised questions about whether it would authorize use of a state-of-the-art command center -- as planned by the Pentagon -- to direct any military action in the region. The U.S.-built center is at Prince Sultan Air Base outside Al Kharj, 70 miles southeast of Riyadh, the capital. Because of new Saudi assurances, plans to organize an alternate command center elsewhere in the Persian Gulf region have been dropped, U.S. officials said, and one said Washington believes the Saudi government "will allow us to do most things, but with a lot of winking."<endsnip>It's embarassing to admit I was fooled. But I think it's an important lesson to pass along. simply Simply Me (9/29/01; 00:24:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 62635) All the news you won't see on ABC. http://www.debka.com/body_index.html a debka headline...."Another Five Saudi Royal Planes Land at Geneva Airport - As Well As Private Aircraft ofQatari Ruler Emir el-Nayan"debka article.....US Bereft of Arab Coalition After Saudi Arabia Backs out22 September<snip>The reason for King Fahd secret exit from Saudi Arabia, followed by a large royal party (see earlier DEBKAfile World Exclusive on this page), is believed by our most reliable sources to be a palace revolution sparked by differences in the royal family over support for the US offensive against Afghanistan, Osama Bin Laden's terror network and other rogue targets. King Fahd and his Sudeiri faction, including defense minister Sultan, were in favor of letting the US place assault forces in forward bases on Saudi soil; the conservative, religious Crown Prince Abdullah, who runs the kingdom since King Fahd became ill, overruled him, backed by the religious establishment. <endsnip>My view: Well, what did G.W. expect from the Crown Prince Abdullah, raised in conservative Arab traditions while his brothers were sent to acquire a western education. Knowledge accumulated in US universities will now be put to work in defense the religious conservatives. <snip>As a result, Saudi Arabia refused to let the US use the kingdom's new combined air operations command center at Prince Sultan Air Base near Riyadh, after Air Force Lt. Gen Charles Wald had been dispatched to the base earlier this week, to take command of US air forces assigned to the Middle East and Southwest Asia.<unsnip>My comment: I wonder who paid for that nice new air base. Hmmmm?Euros for Oil, coming soon to a nation near you!simply ViewYesterday's Discussion.
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