Welcome to the USAGOLD Gold Discussion Archives. Looking to buy gold coins and bullion? The archives of this gold discussion forum are a treasure trove of information to educate investors about protecting their wealth through portfolio diversification with private gold ownership. The discussion forum also covers the wider issues of the past, present, and future role of gold in international monetary policy and the dynamics of the modern gold markets. To join the debate request a discussion password here.
The opinions posted by all guests at this forum are expressly their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the management or staff of USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals. The hosting of this forum shall therefore not be construed as equivalent to endorsement by USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals of any of the opinions posted here.
ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 6/29/2001 All times are U.S. Mountain Time (Yesterday's Discussion.) Turnaround (06/29/01; 23:47:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 57222) Trail Guide- some addtional anaylsis Trail Guide (06/29/01; 19:50:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 57203)commentTurnaroundin your:-----Turnaround (06/29/01; 14:51:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 57178)Trail Guide- the role of force------------Sir Trail Guide,TG: "Well sir, the note of the "European Union rapid reaction force" is in line with noting the development of a political union and hardly goes into the details of what such a force is used for. We are all learned adults here and understand the effects of force. That is far different than your repeat and noting ----"Iron fists in velvet gloves have much to do with our economic lives".--------"Your marking of police state actions, noting brain-of children and them mentioning the culling honest intellectuals from academia has no purpose on this forum except to shout tabloid sensationalism! ..."I am sorry you feel this was shouting, that was not my intention. Nor was there any lack of respect or civility on my part, at least none that I can discern. Perhaps the term "brain-washing" is too sensationalist, can you suggest a different word? Do note that all textbooks used in uS schools receiving federal funding have to be government approved. These works, most particularly history and economics, give the child (at least the ones not drugged at the behest of the state), a very slanted view of the world. I could provide references, some of them are online links, if desired.Example: The 1933 gold confiscation is absolutely missing in action in schoolbooks, movies, newspapers, history books below college level, most history books at college level and so forth. My own causal research indicates something over 95% of adult Americans are completely oblivious to this most crucial turning point in the monetary history of the United States. This is the reason we use the word "totalitarianism": the purging of the records is near-total, the fiat of FRN-denominated contracts is total.Example: Well over 90% of Americans are unable to answer the simple question:"What is the Federal Reserve?"I have received answers ranging from "it's the government" to "it's a big building where they keep the money" to "it's a computer chip", and this does not count the otherwise intelligent and educated people that are simply reduced to an inchoat muttering of jumbled half-thoughts. Please do take my word for this and please do not consider it sensationalizing. I am simply a scientist reporting on some field observations. Exercise your own due diligence- random pick a person off the street or even working at a Fed member bank and ask them this test question.TG: "Indeed, you lack even a shallow explanation of how these intertwine with a currencie's development. Each and every one of your comments carry absolutely no analysis of how these items affect any stage of monetary development. Hence, my objection."Pardon me, I tend to be a little terse. I shorthanded as these topics have been covered on this forum before:"The War on Gold illustrates" (the evolution of our police state).The present state of US currency, law, politics and economics is the resultant of an evolutionary process. The history is punctuated by several prominent shifts, some of which you have covered or mentioned on the Trail Guide pages. In my own opinion, one of the very most important such developments was the near-simultaneous gold confiscations undertaken in the late 1920's and early 1930's by the countries that would later become the primary belligerents in World War II. The declaration of a continuous national state(s) of emergency can be dated with absolute precision to FDR's gold confication decree. This effectively overturned the US Constitution, Article 1, Sections 8 and 10, by an unlawful executive action: a diktat from an elected dictator. The success enjoyed by the Roosevelt Administration led it to contemplate additional "freedoms of action" on the part of State. Further along, we have, for example:a) The assistance in building up of Germany's industry from American industries such as Ford, GM, GE, ITT, Standard Oil, etc., etc.b) An experiment in American fascism (this is the correct word as employed during that period of history), the NRA, Blue Eagle, etc. The reverse of the Washington quarter, designed in 1933, minted 1934-1998 is a leftover from that experiment. Note the similarity to Nazi Germany's national symbol, introduced the same year (?), and with the symbol of Imperial Rome: an eagle holding a fasces in its claws.c) The induction into global war (WWII), financed in part by the gold confiscation, by way of a invited attack at Pearl Harbor. Again, this is a very well documented event, although there has been a great deal of suppression of the history. References on request.d) Added layers of National Emergencies over the decades, many (at least 20, I think, it's hard to keep track of them all) still in force (oops, there's that word again), all unlawful and unnecessary in a constitutional republic.e) The expansion and invasion of the federal govermnent, aka Leviathan, into manifold areas of private lives where it has no business being whatsoever.f), g), h), i), j) Waco, Ruby Ridge, Watergate, Vietnam (again, financed in part by the results of the 1933 gold confiscation + the 1945 Bretton Woods agreement), MAD, Plan Columbia, Iraq, Kosovo, Sudan, OKC, TWA800, it just goes on and on.Very little of this would be happening under rule of law- wars declared by Congress, lawful money, states rights, limited central government powers, etc. I hope this is enough analysis for you for now. If desired, I can add to it in great detail, or direct the reader to the record." Fascism entirely agrees with Mr. Maynard Keynes, despite the latter's prominent position as a Liberal. In fact, Mr. Keynes' excellent little book, *The End of Laissez-Faire* (1926) might, so far as it goes, serve as a useful introduction to fascist economics. There is scarcly anything to object to in it and there is much to applaud"--Benito Mussolini uponroof (06/29/01; 22:31:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 57221) Insider Action in May.....$34 (sell) to $1(buy) http://www.usatoday.com/money/stocks/2001-06-27-insiders-selling.htm Well...well...well. is anybody surprised? Time to pass this little tidbit onto your friends and neighbors who are of course.....'In it for the long haul" As Tice says this is the eye of the hurricane, not the bottom!***********************************************************From the link above:"...• The ratio of stock sold by insiders to stock bought jumped in May. For every dollar insiders spent buying, they sold $34.11. That's more than double the figure for April, $15.98, and nearly triple the average ratio of 12-to-1.• The rate of insider buying fell 15% from April to May, from $179.7 million to $152.5 million.Analysts say the May statistics are significant because corporate insiders tend to have the best idea of how well or poorly their companies are going to perform."Right now, maybe executives don't feel there will be a summer rally," says Lon Gerber, director of research for Thomson Financial/Lancer Analytics. "We're at the most bearish point ever."***********************************************************For what it's worth-------As a long time poster at Gold Eagle, who had my privledges pulled without any e-mails or debatable detailed explanations......you people here don't know how lucky you are. nuff said. Perplexed (06/29/01; 22:31:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 57220) Response to Trail Guide TG the statement asserting MK rights to control the forum as he sees fit, with which you open your post, is a declaration of truth. It is a true statement because within that particular context, Micheal, as owner of the venture, is free to act as its sovereign. TO WHOM SOVEREIGNTY BELONGS, AND ITS CONTEXT, IS THE KEY TOTHE ENTIRE DISCUSSION.You state: Perplexed we stick with the defined money because we enjoy the credit qualities it offers. Western people trap themselves because they crave the lifestyle a buy now and never pay "money system" provides them. If they did all their dealing under a wealth gold system.....cash barter on the barrel head....they would be very unhappy and throw out the officials in power.Response: "throw out the officials in power" is the operative phrase. We stick with a "credit money system" because a war created the government underwhich the system was established, We thus are now faced with two choices. Another armed revolution to "throw" them out, or wait for the natural end of an unstable bastardized government surviving only by thesuccess of an unstable bastardized, economic system to fail, and then exercise the acquired wisdom to put the pieces back into their proper order.Quote: all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they areaccustomed. Unquote: More words of wisdom from our nations founders. Rational men have little desire for either death or imprisonment, and the evils as yet are still preferable to either.You quote my statement:---- A law defining money in the context of a given quantity, as well quality of gold or silver as contained within our Constitution creates gold and silver money, and the only way it may be dethroned is by amendment----- Then ask: Here you endorse the very law creating authority needed to identify--yet, ET and others riled against this same position when I mentioned the Euro System declaring gold a pure wealth asset without credit qualities. Do you want government in this business or not?THE ANSWER IS YES! I’M A LIBERTARIAN, NOT A FOOL.We are up to our necks in alligators, not because the "officials in power" are acting in accordance with the Supreme Law of the land, creating the coin of the realm and setting its value, but because they abrogated their oath of office and relinquished the most basic responsibility of government to a private business, along with the keys to the treasury. The government of the United States was created in the aftermath of a war, a war which created a collection of sovereign citizens, with the statement that governments are to be created for the purpose of preserving that sovereignty still ringing in their ears.For the first time in modern history, a SOVEREIGN PEOPLE CREATED A SOVEREIGN GOVERNMENT. This government was created and staffed by the citizens themselves. The citizen representatives were INTENTIONALLY DENIED THE POWER OF ENHANCED SOVEREIGNTY TYPICAL OF A SOVEREIGN STATE.They merely received and endowment of AUTHORITY, and very little of that under the Articles of Confederation.The Constitution, was written ten years later by a convention assembled to merely overhaul the Articles. It instead increased representative authority, but retained the Sovereignty of the individual within the new document.When combined with ten years of disastrous experiences with currency printed by each of the various states, contrasted with the positive experiences of the Spanish milled silver dollar, the prevailing atmosphere, and circumstances of the time virtually guaranteed a circulating, bi- metal money. Under this scenario, with sovereign citizens as the government regulating the value of their money, why would I object to my government controlling my money? With the government bound by law and the citizens free too transact their version of their business, how could I hope for anything better?This all changed with the outcome of the Civil War. The Constitution was suspended at the outbreak of war, and when re-introduced, transferred Sovereignty from the Individualto the Federal Government. We now share the same form of corporate government with our European kin.The result has been an infestation of law manipulators teamed with another infestation of currency manipulators working in tandem as super parasites. Under these conditions it makes no difference whether government or business holds the official reins, nor if those holding those reins are American or European does it? Yes!The big difference is an assumption of Individual Sovereignty. This assumption, whether real or imagined, is the driving force and mind set of those of us on this side of the pond. Even the concept of natural rights guaranteed by government has never existed in Europe.Contrarily, our American society, although besieged with propaganda attempting to expunge this from our collective psycie has shown minimal effect. Gun control,collective medicine, end of the death penalty, are all still far from entrenched within our society.In my opinion you are in for a very rude awakening if you expect a miraculous rescue of the world economy from Europe. If you remember, the system which we are now enduring was hatched there, in fact one of Rothshields cohorts was first director of the Fed Reserve. The philosophy that all wealth is collective has been the driving force of European government for millennia. The attempt to now close the underground economy and seize"common wealth" previously hidden from the various government entities, may well result in the derailing of the emerging dictatorship. When this scheme is laid out in its totality to the European people, rather than hidden in the deep caves of the would be elite controllers. A Constitution acknowledging the previous existence of natural rights, and a document acknowledging the fact that the purpose of government is the preservation of those rights. A complete blueprint of the governing process including the selection of leaders, and then a referendum presented to all citizens, then I will acknowledge the legitimacy of theundertaking. Everyone on the forum is shaking their heads in wonderment as to why the Dollar is maintaining its strength. The answer is contained in one word. FREEDOMSince the end of WWII the world has been in a state of advanced feudalism, with much of it under the protection of the United States. We have benefited from the production of a population learning and honing skills and practices needed to compete. They have benefited not only from lack of the need to spend money which they did not have on defense, a market for the products of their labor, and a very stable currency. In reality the workers of the world have been provided the opportunity to pay their own way as they have matured. The time of maturity is now at hand and coincides perfectly with the rapidly approaching decline of the United States ability to continue to provide these services. A new money system is required, however, the old warmed over system now being offered by Europeis not the answer as evident by the fact that after 225 years of envy of the United States, they still do not understand the concept of Individual Sovereignty. The definition of money like the definition of beauty is in the eye of the beholder. TG, while I agree with much of your wisdom, this is not one of those times.Perplexed Zenidea (06/29/01; 22:10:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 57219) Orville-megatron Orville, Yep all is happy the payer-payee. Honest stuff that Gold :). I have said more than once how Au is already 500-600 now. It just needs velocity :). Throw it to me ! hehe.Megatron. Well not wanting to get into it too deeply all I know is one tends to guibble with the ones we love the most, otherwise perhaps one wouldnt bother ?. . Immm the passion itself seems healthy !:). OK thats me the wife wants to drag me off swimming.:) Crossroads (06/29/01; 21:58:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 57218) missing post Randy, earlier today i saw a post from ji. Was it deleted? Is the link posted considered a competitor? Thank you for your reply in advance. goldfan (06/29/01; 21:48:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 57217) Gold is a Life Raft Here's something those wanting to persuade someone to buy some gold might use. Last year after a lot of jawboning I got a friend of mine to buy some gold coins (from a dealer he knew). The other day my friend was complaining to me that gold hadn't yet moved in price, and had even gone down. I said to him "Jack, you remember you weren't buying those coins for an investment. You were buying them for insurance, in case your other savings blew up along with the collapse of the dollar. Think of it this way," I said, seizing on a sudden image. "If you were out on a boat, you'd want a life raft, right? So you buy a life raft. Do you then stand by the raft all the time the boat is sailing, asking when it is time to cut the line and set the raft free? Your gold is a life raft in case of a disaster. It's no substitute for the boat." He got the message loud and clear and walked away happy at last with his gold purchase. FWIWGoldfan megatron (06/29/01; 21:45:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 57216) Zenedia In case you have not been around there has been a few 'incidents' of 'pulled' passwords, ill-toned accusations, and the harsh reality of business dropped on our happy group.Goldfan;'I enjoy the inputs of others who are as restless as I about trying to discern what is really going on'That's brilliant! I'm going to use that. Orville Goldenbacher (06/29/01; 21:37:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 57215) Zenidea, USAGOLD Hi Mate,I can pay my helper a 1/10 ounce Gold American Eagle for about 4.5 hours labor (around $30 USD) which has a face value of $5 USD. For 8 hours labor a French Rooster might be in store. It is an incredible opportunity to save real wealth at a working wage. I've been paying with "junk" silver coins going from 3.3 x face, to 4 x face value depending on the coins. Walking Liberty silver half dollars go for 4 times face value ($2.00 ea.) in average circulated condition for common years. Mercury dimes in average circulated condition are also 4 times face, or .40 cents. roosevelt dimes, Kennedy half dollars, Franklin half dollars, Washington quarter's (pre 65's), etc. go for 3.3-3.5 times face value, as paid in wage form.I would like to thanks Mr. Kosares for hosting this forum. I know it can be a headache from time to time, but i have learned so much from this forum in the last year that i have been a visitor here. I probably have broken a rule or two in ignorance, for which i would like to appologize. I truly value this forum (i even wrote my password on the wall, i NEVER write on the wall ;) Life is beautiful, this forum is beautiful, don't change a thing and Thanks!FWIW- My Grandpa used to tell a story about too many ceo's and not enough miner's. it was similar to the, too many chiefs and not enough indians story. I guess the moral to the story was that you must do your own share and try not to be too bossy in the mean time.OGOG goldfan (06/29/01; 21:31:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 57214) Randy (@ The Tower) ( msg#: 57190) I have some comments and questions on this post of yours quoting The Stranger.>>>>>Highgrading, or panning for nuggets. Call it what you will...This was one of the best posts from yesterday. I hope everyone will read it and allow themselves a few moments of clear meditation.------START----The Stranger (06/28/01; 11:20:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 57080)Kemp takes an awfull lot of column space to propose the very system we've already got. In short, he proposes a "defacto" gold standard where people buy and sell the metal in a market place which is rigged by central banks. Is this not precisely the basis for Reg Howe's law suit, that the PRETENSE of a free market in gold defrauds those innocents who choose to participate?<<<<<I applaud the lawsuit as helping in the education of the public about the dirty tricks of their governments. I wonder how any result of the lawsuit could improve a system which can't be fundamentally altered unless governments stop making fiat the only legal tender? It's not the "pretense" that's the problem, nobody with any sense is fooled. It's the fiat that ‘s the problem.Right now we have an independent business entity, the COMEX and another the LBMA, that conduct markets in gold in much the same way as "free", markets conduct auctions in cattle and corn. It is a fact of human nature, that independent businesses are often used by governments to conduct secret affairs they'd rather not like to see the light of day. I have no doubt that most of the players, certainly the big ones, on these exchanges well know whatever government manipulations are taking place and are content to "play poker " with the marked deck anyhow. There are few innocents in these places. That's my assertion. I challenge you or anyone here to prove me wrong. A few years ago I made a potfull of money on a scam called BRE-X. As it happened, I thought it was legitimate. No matter. I could see from my charts it was time to sell and I did. The information I used was was freely available to everybody. Only those foolish enough to buy long after the run-up, or too hopeful or inexperienced to sell when it was clearly past its prime, lost their shirts. I have little sympathy for anyone who gets "taken" by buying just because it's in fashion, not having the least idea how a stock market or a mutual fund operates. I have little sympathy for the losses suffered by people who think any stock market, or market instrument, is run by mostly honest people.You can't protect people from themselves. If you could, everyone would be buying gold. People around me are intelligent. But they are totally uninterested in this topic. They didn't start drinking bottled water either, until their friends and relatives were dying of bacterial poisoning. If it is true that these markets are "rigged' by central banks, doing some kind of wash trading, or whatever, then that fact is known to all the traders, or they shouldn't be trading, and deserve to get creamed. What guarantees are there that any market established in Europe to replace these, will be used any more honorably by the banks and government of these nations?? Unless somebody can show me how the European governments or banks are going to suddenly get religion, I say they won't be. By the very nature of governments, and government sponsored banking. >>>>No thanks, Mr. Kemp. Either set gold free or set your standard in stone.<<<< Obviously Mr. Kemp hasn't got the power to set gold free. So what can the Stranger mean by this? How can gold ever be freely traded on a government sponsored exchange? When did that ever happen? What evidence is there that the forecast by FOA and Randy that the EU will do this are any more than wishful thinking?->>>>And knowing the "magic" of the banking system and credit expansion as we all do, we can all hopefully admit that setting the standard "in stone" is essentially the ages old mistake to attempt to perpetrate a half-truth wherein gold is made to circulate as though it were just a lowly equivalent with credit paper money.<<<As I understand it, the ECB is aiming to to set up a system whereby gold and currency will trade alongside each other, as "equivalently useful" as each other? And what will stop this too from being manipulated, ruled by lies? Is that not a definition and a chief activity of government, manipulation of the people, for and by the powerful?>>>>>There is no reason that we must propagate this "little white lie" that gold and credit are as one any further.<<<<I'd like some definitions of what you mean by this. As far as I'm concerned, if you are saying that the EU is developing a system that means I can't improve my credit rating by owning gold instead of potatoes, then I say the EU is proposing something that won't work and can't work and a person would be a fool to believe the Euro will live up to any of what its proponents expect from it. >>>>>Gold must be set free from the clutching arms of drowning Credit. And most signs suggest that it shall... it is happening now in the political processes across the globe. <<< I would like to know of one credible political process, some details of it, anywhere, that is setting gold free of any attempt by that government to manipulate it's "price" in currency. >>>>Sit back and watch!<<<<I have no interest in sitting back and watching. Either I participate, with others who are doing the same, or I am out of here! Well I own some gold. All I can afford. When I can afford more, I'll buy it, if it's within my reach and if I can, I'll buy from CPM. And if my friends would pay attention, they would hear me say buy Au and buy from CPM. So given I know the answer, why should I bother reading here, and occasionally entering my two cents worth? Because there is always a nagging doubt I may be wrong, because as long as I don't fully understand something, I think I may have got it wrong. Because I enjoy learning, I enjoy exercising the muscles of my mind, I enjoy the inputs of others who are as restless as I about trying to discern what is really going on, who are as I a touch afraid they might be wrong, I enjoy those whose minds are NOT already made up. I particularly liked and feel grateful to those contributors like ORO who back up their assertions and forecasts with information from other writers and other thinkers. Adds to their credibility and their interest value, in my eyes. FWIWGoldfan goldfan (06/29/01; 21:27:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 57213) USAGold If my vote counts for anything, then I would vote ET and Hillbilly Mitchell back here. I have enjoyed the energy and intelligence of your posts, ET and HBM, may your trails be peaceful. Goldfan Zenidea (06/29/01; 21:21:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 57212) Megatron Megraton I dont know whats going on in here, I sort of seethe premise in some statements and speed come skip read over it, but you can bet your boots on counting me in on squatting into a free hug session with Au lovers. And I promise not to pickpocket. Journeyman (06/29/01; 21:16:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 57211) A Little Help @Randy, TG Hi TG, Randy!Thanks, TG for giving my post your attention, and fairly quoting me in your response.But I think you may have missed my main thrust and point.Please note these two excerpts from my last message:I think this whole episode suggests there is a problem here which ALL of us who have an interest in this forum need to try to address.+While USAGOLD pays to "keep the lights on" if posters and lurkers are driven away for any reason, he won't be the only loser. -Journeyman msg#: 57191I perceived a problem and I tried, delicately, I thought to get it into the open.This seems to have touched some raw nerves.I think Leigh, however, put her finger on the solution. She posted, "In the 'good old days' of the Forum banishments were rare. When someone was banished, it seems that everyone understood why, and (generally) people agreed that it was justified. We had a lot more freedom of speech then, and we truly felt like a family." The reality everyone knows, if they think about it, is that you guys can pull the plug on anyone you please at any time you please for any reason you please. In the past, it was percieved that this power was rarely used, and when it was, it was used fairly. We humans have a very strong sense of fair-play, and when we perceive that it's violated, most of us don't like it. Notice I said "when we PERCIEVE." Whether it's actually fair or not doesn't count for much.It seems to me what we have here is a classic case of "failure to communicate." As I said in my case, I assumed my code was pulled because of the content of my posts, and to the best of my knowledge, that assumption was completely incorrect. Now I don't know why ET had his code pulled or who pulled it, so I wonder. Unfortunately a predictible human foible. It's such "wonderings" that cause the problems I think.For that reason, I would suggest some sort of official explanation accompany a cancelling of a posting code, and perhaps an interim suspension first. Or something.I am not arguing you don't have the right to run your show anyway you want, only that you might want to consider what effects some things have on the visitors and volunteer labor.Regards,Journeyman Zenidea (06/29/01; 21:09:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 57210) Couldnt have garbled my own message better myself :) I guess I mean au coinage and the payer needs some kind of slush fund ( stray cash )?, and should have said reduce that rate of paper money rate that that employee is now not getting some margin difference in the saving as a comprimise or sweetener to the employee. Just crawled out of bed.still half asleep. :) megatron (06/29/01; 20:58:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 57209) USAGold My chick is freekin' out. She can't believe such a great site could be shut down. She's taking her MBA and loves reading the economic opinions. I like the gold part. We get endless enjoyment from the posts. I would like to say to all, in the two years I've been here, I don't think I've ever seen anyone post anything that a grown person would not just shrug off. Get real. We're all big boys and girls. If I say something you don't like. Fine. Skip the post. DON'T RESPOND. If someone takes a shot at me'so WHAT? They'll get bored and move along. I mean, if you can't deflect the kind of softballs people here throw, don't get a job in the entertainment biz. Now let's hug : ) Leigh (06/29/01; 20:52:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 57208) MK Dear MK: Please cancel my password. I do not wish to remain part of a Forum which you consider to be an embarassment and a business liability. It is time to move on to other activities which will welcome my participation. I do hope Centennial will soon recover from its sad mistake of hosting the Forum.Sincerely, Leigh Zenidea (06/29/01; 20:45:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 57207) Orville Goldenbacher BARTER FOR LABOUR. re 57161. HI :) I guess this subject matter has been transpiring for some time in small circlesin Australia. Instead of cash please pay me 2 ounces every so many days with a legal tender face value of X times less than the value of the metal so I can legally declare myhonest social obligations to the system for tax purposes etc. Because of the substancial savings to the employee! and because some may know it may be a hassle for the employer to physically have to go and obtain the metal in this particular legal form perhaps they may look at reducingthe fiat rate of pay the the other employee is getting by the difference in margin?. Purely hypothetical or just a lurk for the rich ? Smiles.All: Been flat out these last few weeks. Still pop in whenever the oppertunity arises. :) Randy (@ The Tower) (06/29/01; 20:34:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 57206) Trail Guide... Unless you start setting forest fires and throwing rocks over on the Gold Trail, you can be sure that that large tract of "real estate" will always be a welcome canvas to receive the artwork of your bootprints.Really enjoyed your post on the "money concept" today. As promised, I'll be adding some more to this presentation later, hopefully with information that will bring some elements into clearer focus. Why do you suppose this item is such a flashpoint for some people? Where were these people when Roosevelt committed the ultimate atrocity in 1933 whereby gold was outlawed for private ownership until 1975? How very easy it is to wake up today and buy all you need! It can't continue to trade this cheaply for long for reasons we've each endeavored to explain according to our own resources, and yet their anger builds without justification.Could it be akin to the experience of Copernicus, Kepler, and Galileo and the resistance to a presentation that the Universe was not earth-centered? Truly, we were all *eventually* set free by this knowledge, and, to no modern man's surprise, the earth remained just as important to our lives as it had been before the situation had become accepted as common knowledge... even more so with our newfound understanding of physics! Tree in the Forest (06/29/01; 20:25:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 57205) Forum Guidelines I have just re-read the forum guidelines. I see no admonition that posts must be politically correct. (as long as they are not against race, religion etc.) I will accept your point Trail Guide that I should discuss the economic and gold related aspects of my posts. But if the forum is still here, and I am still allowed to post, I may post political positions that you may find distasteful. I agree that an open forum like this one could be a liability for Michael's business if some clients are alienated by some of the positions taken by some posters. However, that is for Michael to decide. Trail Guide (06/29/01; 19:56:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 57204) (No Subject) Randy,Thank you, sir. As far as we are concerned,,,,,,,,****** pull the plug when ready******!! Trail Guide (06/29/01; 19:50:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 57203) comment Turnaroundin your:-----Turnaround (06/29/01; 14:51:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 57178)Trail Guide- the role of force------------Well sir, the note of the "European Union rapid reaction force" is in line with noting the development of a political union and hardly goes into the details of what such a force is used for. We are all learned adults here and understand the effects of force. That is far different than your repeat and noting ----"Iron fists in velvet gloves have much to do with our economic lives".--------Your marking of police state actions, noting brain-washing of children and them mentioning the culling honest intellectuals from academia has no purpose on this forum except to shout tabloid sensationalism! Indeed, you lack even a shallow explanation of how these intertwine with a currencie's development. Each and every one of your comments carry absolutely no analysis of how these items affect any stage of monetary development. Hence, my objection.Even your statement of ------Some folks are just not going to voluntarily comply with the totalitarian dreams of would-be masters, not now and not ever---- leaves nothing for the reader to consider. We all have ideals of freedom,,,,,, yet this forum is about how the mechanics of politics and economics is impacting our gold markets and how those same will work out. That is the stated reason this forum is here. ----------==============---Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (06/29/01; 16:00:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 57182)Trail Guide ---You have tap danced around the question behind my post. It was simply, what was in ET's post #57125 that warranted his code being pulled?-------No, I didn't tap dance around anything and your simple reply indicates your reluctance to address my point. You were ""making a case that one cannot disagree on this forum"" that is not true and I pointed out your oversight in making that note. I pointed out that the decor on this forum was to debate in a civil manner. Your expression that ----"Differing opinions and healthy skepticism stretches the imagination"------ leaves out how said posters break the rules and said rule breaking is the reason they are pulled. When you say ------"The best well along the internet highway has been poisoned' ----- you are twisting the truth for your own benefit and that cannot stand. When you say -----" If the forum is merely supposed to be a platform of solid agreement with USAGOLD, Randy, TG/FOA, Another, etc. regarding all things gold, then please drop the pretense of chivalrous conduct."--------you are the one proposing such a position and that is simply false. Anyone can differ here if they follow the discussion format and do it in a civil way.Further you say:-----As for your crack at my being "at a different level", perhaps I am. I can withstand criticism. I also admit when I believe I am wrong.---------Sir, this forum is not built on a platform that requires anyone to take criticism. No one here is required to withstand such as a prerequisite to staying. When you stated -----"then please drop the pretense of chivalrous conduct."------ that remark reflected your own perception of discussion here. It was also an insult to many of the contributors that work so hard to share their understanding. Again, ingesting your insults may be required on other forums,,,,, not here.you say ------ANOTHER clearly states that "Gold is the only money the world has ever known", so when you claim I am wrong to say "gold is money", you must support your position.------Sir, I did most clearly in ------Trail Guide (06/29/01; 09:47:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 57160) Money-------. Still, I found no refute from you concerning my post. Only hollow shouts! ===============further in:---Tree in the Forest (06/29/01; 16:05:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 57183)I will reply to each of your assertions:------First of all, differing systems of government definitely have an effect on economics. Do you believe that the economics of the former Soviet Union was the same as the economics of the United States? ---------- No!------Do you believe that a capitalist nation such as the US will achieve the same level of wealth as a communist nation such as North Korea? --------- No!-----Do you believe that the Jeorg Hader incident and opposition to political parties by the EU will have no effect on what happens with the Euro?------ Yes!----Do you honestly believe that a war will have no effect on our economic situation?----- No!------Do you believe that a war will have no effect on gold?------ No!------Trail Guide, I did not post information on drive-by shootings or drug deals gone bad. This was not a police report! These people were shot in the back by their own countrymen while protesting an economic forum! -------- Sir, This same sort of event happens around the world countless times a day. Your noting it begs the question, do you think myself and other people that come here to read and discuss gold issues are lost to receiving this sort of news? ------This is about a system of government that is rapidly showing us it's fascist bent. I am vehemently opposed to such systems----- Sir, I am confident that we could find at least as many stories that confirm your same "fascist bent" in the USA if this forum was structured for such reporting. Just as I noted to Turnaound above, your report lacked any conclusions to connect it to gold or Euro / dollar policy and reeked of tabloid sensationalism. After reading your statement again, I note that it also supports your political slant. While valid, it was not for the betterment of this forum but for the expression of your "vehement opposition". Again, we are not here for that!----What I have posted is very much about political upheaval and history tells us that this will indeed effect economics and gold.------ Again, Without giving us some conclusions,,,, or at least pre supporting your assumptions ahead with other posts,,,,, you sir are insulting us with tabloid sensationalism!------We are just starting to see this mayhem now as a country engaged in a currency war tries to force it's political and economic policies down it's own people's throats.------- Sir, This is your perception and perhaps of a few others. I and many other readers do not accept your big brother scare innuendoes and feel the prudent allocation of wealth assets will see us thru most of this. ------ I intend to continue to bring up the political situation in Europe when I think it appliesto our future monetary problems.------ Well, I for one hope you do, but only if leaves out the obvious blood shed and sensationalism and contains some form of discussion to explain how it will impact the gold and currency markets.=============Further:Journeyman (06/29/01; 16:14:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 57185)Chilling @ET, Stocks, Lies & Ticker Tape, Randy, ALLSir,I object to your discrete suggestions that this site is some form of police state! Your line of propositions is an outrage to every person that has worked years to build this forum into what it is today! Your returning post is outright insulting!you say------If so, why? Such questions are important. Here's why:There is a word that the U.S. Court system likes to use in discussing freedom of speech and censorship. That word is "chill." --------This line alone is directed at the very core of this body. You of all people have had the most latitude to speak here and now you return with accusatory oratory!----Censorship can be quite subtle and even unconscious, and sometimes has effects even the censors don't intend. -----------The problem with censorship, or the perception of it, no matter the circumstances, and especially when things aren't well defined (and even when they are), is that people become afraid to talk about all sorts of things. That's what "chill" means.-----Sir, the rules here are well defined and speech is wide open,,,,,, if civil! Censorship here is not unconscious and very intentional! The only people here that are afraid to talk are the ones that insult and attack others,,,,,, the ones that break the posting rules!you say:------One poster just e-mailed me recently saying he was only reading here once in a while now because things were getting boring and repetitive. Don't know if this represents any kind of consensus, but variety IS the spice of life.------I suggest that these posters should go the the other sites that allow anyone to be cursed, insulted and shouted down! In these they may find your spice a little much!------It can also be argued, in line with the title of Mises' major work, that any activity that involves"Human Action" is grist for the economic mill. Which makes it, if the proper connections are drawn, relevant to gold and theoretically at least, on topic here. Sometimes posters do tend to leave out the appropriate connections, however;> ---------Murder, robbery, sensational stories without an economic connection are grist for the tabloids,,,,,, not here!------Intentional or not, I feel a definite drop in temperature in the room and would suggest someone might want to do something about it before things "chill" people so much there's an exodus of uncomfortable folks large enough to drop this forum below "critical mass."-----******This last note is an absolute outrage! Was your intention of returning here only to thrust a spear into our long work? I also duly noted your recent reply to ORO,,,,,, asking him to cool it in the same manner as your own expression to me. First you attack my words with insulting remarks then after I offer that we could discuss over "burgers and beer",,,,, you change your approach. Sir, it is your "chill" that frightens!Good day Randy (@ The Tower) (06/29/01; 19:50:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 57202) On being here... How many times in recent memory have you had to tolerate the experience of having persons completely unknown to you come into your household or your place of business to express -- for all the world to hear -- their unsolicited opinions about how you are or should be conducting your affairs?Like clockwork, MK expresses to me his reservations that sponsoring a forum such as this is not in his best interests as the owner/president of Centennial Precious Metals, a private gold brokerage that discreetly caters to the diversification needs of distinctly successful and intelligent clientele. (I like to call these people "Captains of their Own Fortune.")Like clockwork, I endeavor to persuade MK that the Forum need not be a business liability -- it need not conflict with the promotional/educational goals of the rest of the website, nor need it threaten to be a poor reflection on Centennial's brokerage services.Like clockwork, I come up short in fostering/promoting a reality that matches my hopeful words of reassurances. It seems that my thick skin against feeling the barbed comments directed for whatever reason at me, personally, has been a liability more so than an asset. To be sure, it is an asset to me personally, but it has been a liability against my efforts to foster and maintain an environment where intelligent people can engage in respectful discourse on monetary issues that matter to their lives. Insulated too much perhaps by my thick skin, I have continued to tolerate the intrusion upon our "household" by ill-tempered folks who disrupt the otherwise business-like tenor of our 24-hour RoundTable meetings. For what its worth to the hen party, I have not been the one to add any codes to the "bone pile" for several days. That operation was necessarily seized by someone more alert and objective than myself.Make no mistake. This has nothing to do with free speech. For that, I challenge any commercial Free Speech Advocacy Group to attempt to provide a cyber-meetingplace for the discussion of their important issues. I'm guessing that if they issued posting passwords to their world audience, it would not be long before they had no choice but to deactivate codes of disrupters. Like this: "Does this place REALLY stand for free speech? Wow! You guys are boring! This place sucks! My math homework form school is more fun than you guys! How can you stand each other? BORING! BOOOOORRRING!" And then, *YOINK* there goes the password. And there goes their credibility as an institution right with it!!! Hello????!!!MK is right. Any attempt to offer a cyber-meeting room having an open invitation for public participation is a business disaster waiting to happen. Next time, I will support its termination for the greater benefit of Centennial.Like clockwork. Tree in the Forest (06/29/01; 19:35:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 57201) CoBra(too) Well sir, I do not believe that the European people (nor for that matter the German people) are still at the "Adolph H." level as you put it. I say again, my problem is with the governments, not the people. Keep in mind that the poor Swede who was shot in the back for protesting economic globalization, was "the people" not the government. I should also add that I am well aware of media propaganda and have posted about that specifically(though I can't find the post). I hope that you will stay alert for government propaganda directed at you! But are you saying that the shooting did not occur? Are you saying that it's OK to shoot someone in the back as long as it results in the birth of the Euro? What I am saying is that these actions are not necessary for the Euro to be born.I cannot disagree with you that it was the dollar (the US at Bretton Woods) that took advantage of the situation after WWII. As you say, things are not black and white. But does the Bretton Woods agreement somehow rationalize shooting a man in the back? I think not. He did not perpetrate Bretton Woods!A few days ago, I came across a story from the Vietnam era about some American protesters being beaten but I did not post it because it was not apropos to gold, economics etc. However now, in view of this incident, it may well be. This appeared in the New York Times on 12/3/67 but it had to run as an ad because the Times refused to print it:"The MAINSTREAM MEDIA have become famous for ignoring incidents that might reflect badly on government and the elite, such as the growing corruption in the courts and in law-enforcement circles. Recently, the entire countrywas outraged (as they should have been) over the beating of RODNEY KING. But, unfortunately, this incident was not unique. During an ANTI-WAR PROTEST in front of the Pentagon: "At least four times that soldier hit her with all his force, then as she lay covering her head with her arms, thrust his club swordlike between her hands onto her face. Two more troops came up and began dragging the girl toward the Pentagon...She twisted her body so we could see her face. But THERE WAS NO FACE THERE; all we saw were [sic] some raw skin and blood. We couldn't even see if she was crying - her eyes had filled with the blood pouring down her head. She vomited, and that, too, was blood. Then they rushed her away." - HARVEY MAYESNow I have never had much sympathy for Vietnam war protesters (at least, not in those days before I found out that wars are planned and rigged). But the point is my friend, that this type of violence is uncalled for. The Euro can launch quite successfully without it. Regards to you CB2! (and Max Liebermann is very funny!)(and I like your rhymes too!) BullDrooy (06/29/01; 19:24:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 57200) Thanks for Restoring My Posting Privileges Just wanted to thank the PTB at this forum for restoring my posting privileges.I'm pretty new here and I did not realize when I posted information about a particular gold stock that I was violating the USA Gold TOS. I guess I never considered a gold stock as a competitor of the folks who run this site since different products are sold.I just wanted to apologize to everyone for misunderstanding what is and is not allowed to be posted here.Guess I'm still learning.Looking forward to following rules and contributing to the legal discourse here.Blessings,BD Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (06/29/01; 19:00:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 57199) Leigh Thanks for letting us know. I put a call out on the forum to HBM yesterday. His lack of participation in so many conversations which were up his alley so to speak, gave cause for suspicion. Sad no one in the ivory Tower deemed it necessary to answer as to HBM's fate.I see posts that refer either directly or indirectly to other gold houses on this forum all the time. Those of us at this forum are quite capable of using a search engine to find a competitor. The excuse seems weak. HBM is still in the HOF. His contributions are appreciated. His words are remembered, "WE WANT FREE!" Christian (06/29/01; 18:49:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 57198) Genuine Progress Index Greenspan needs help. The GDP Gross Domestic production is full of crap. More then 70% of our GDP is production made up of make work programs that benefit nobody other then government workers and financial institutions and its owners. He is looking for a Genuine Progress Index (GPI) of constructive work. With the present GDP index it is neither possible to manage the nation's money supply. He also said that the trade deficit will double the next three years. We no longer produce many of the genuine products needed. We are importing more and more genuine agriculture production, machinery, textiles, computer products and oil etc.. He also said if gold goes up, so will the price of oil. Todays consumers are using the value of their house to cash flow their buying habits. Varda (06/29/01; 18:38:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 57197) Test Test Leigh (06/29/01; 17:40:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 57196) Journeyman, SLATT I learned yesterday that Hill Billy Mitchell, one of our most thoughtful and intelligent posters, was also purged. I had not heard it before. Sir Hill Billy inadvertently posted a website which competed with CPM. In the "good old days" of the Forum banishments were rare. When someone was banished, it seems that everyone understood why, and (generally) people agreed that it was justified. We had a lot more freedom of speech then, and we truly felt like a family. ET was one of the first posters here at the Forum and was well-regarded.Those were indeed "good old days." Hi-Hat (06/29/01; 17:27:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 57195) Control FREAKS This money verses gold wealth, barter, currency,etc. , etc.has really been a CONTROL issue all along.While the fiat, currency, digitol, may or may not be here to stay--That certain vested interests reap a great benefit fromthis "arrangement", and excercise a great deal of "control"goes without saying, at this point in the game.The backing ultimately being gun barrels. Peter Asher (06/29/01; 17:24:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 57194) The SM sell off in the final hour One theory I read was that 'they' closed the NASDAQ so that the DOW drop wouldn't spread.My thought is that an announcement of a computer glitch shutting of the access to E-wealth of that magnitude focused allot of attention on the additional precariousness of money substitutes as they move into the world of electronic storage. One may have a record of their equity as proof of ownership but if the ability to cash it in for currency vanishes while world events could simultaneously eliminate the buying pool, the phenomena named "Opening Gap" could render half the world destitute. CoBra(too) (06/29/01; 17:21:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 57193) WTO-Issues - Goeteborg and Rioting ... Tree in the Forrest, Sir, as you may have been quoting from a news media article that the Salzburg police is going to shoot rioters at the WTO Meeting this weekend and claiming all sorts of fascistoid, socialist and communist 'putschist' conspiracies (Jörg Haider, BTW, is just a vastly overblown, well, at one stage exceptionally successful - clown - but still a clown) is telling me that you either you're history started with Adolf H. and that's were you still crave Europe should be - the outcasts for eternity. Since I'm not as naive to believe all's as black and white as you're seemingly made to believe by whatever biased media - as tedious as some screaming headlines cry hold the thief! - I'm inclined to agree to a shoot-out between the WTO and its rioting enemy at high noon as a prelude to the Salzburg Festival for all to see - Jedermann! ... ... Fortunately my country had better parodists than 'me' - not surprisingly, as Max Liebermann was asked if he'd do a portrait of Hindenburg he said: "Hindenburg, I'd not even piss him in the snow!". Now, let's get back to discuss the gold issue, or I'll better go to Salzburg and riot for cheaper tickets at the festival and against WTO. That's globalisation for me, while confrontation and trade regulation is springing up all around me ... and, as an afterthought, its the Dollarization, which started this polarization, not surprisingly - at least to me.Regards - cb2 ...and go ahead - shoot back! Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (06/29/01; 17:18:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 57192) Golden Rule ET come home! . Journeyman (06/29/01; 17:12:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 57191) The Disappeared @Stocks, Lies and Ticker Tape, ALL Hi ALL!Hmm! As I said in my first return post yesterday, "Interesting."What bothered me most is I would not be able to tell my side of the story. Folks would assume I did something against the rules, which I didn't.Further, there was no appeal and to the extent I had an investment in posting here (and I have a big one -- literally hundreds, if not perhaps thousands, of hours over the last couple of years), I had no recourse.This has made me stop and think about venues of expression from an economic perspective.And the very possibility that others not so lucky as to have his/her circumstances verified on line and other posters to support him, makes me very uncomfortable indeed.On the otherhand, as I remember, many folks who had their tickets pulled had it done pretty much up-front.None-the-less, this doesn't mean there haven't been any "disappeared."I think this whole episode suggests there is a problem here which ALL of us who have an interest in this forum need to try to address.While USAGOLD pays to "keep the lights on" if posters and lurkers are driven away for any reason, he won't be the only loser.ET, if you're out there, I want you back!Regards,JourneymanP.S. I would still much rather be answering Sir Randy's "money" posts. Randy (@ The Tower) (06/29/01; 17:08:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 57190) Highgrading, or panning for nuggets. Call it what you will... This was one of the best posts from yesterday. I hope everyone will read it and allow themselves a few moments of clear meditation.------START----The Stranger (06/28/01; 11:20:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 57080)Kemp takes an awfull lot of column space to propose the very system we've already got. In short, he proposes a "defacto" gold standard where people buy and sell the metal in a market place which is rigged by central banks. Is this not precisely the basis for Reg Howe's law suit, that the PRETENSE of a free market in gold defrauds those innocents who choose to participate?No thanks, Mr. Kemp. Either set gold free or set your standard in stone.---END---Excellent presentation!And knowing the "magic" of the banking system and credit expansion as we all do, we can all hopefully admit that setting the standard "in stone" is essentially the ages old mistake to attempt to perpetrate a half-truth wherein gold is made to circulate as though it were just a lowly equivalent with credit paper money.There is no reason that we must propagate this "little white lie" that gold and credit are as one any further. Gold must be set free from the clutching arms of drowning Credit. And most signs suggest that it shall... it is happening now in the political processes across the globe. Sit back and watch! Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (06/29/01; 16:53:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 57189) CORRECTION Four hours ago. . Randy (@ The Tower) (06/29/01; 16:46:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 57188) Fed pumps reserves... funds take flight? The market in federal funds was trading quite tightly this afternoon, an eye-popping 4.25 percent, well above the FOMC's new 3.75% target for such overnight borrowing. Perhaps some big outside players pulled their funds out of the U.S. banking system and went packing????The Fed acted to counter the tightness of the pinched banking system by adding $739 million in permanent reserves through the outright purchase of U.S. Treasury securities. The Fed also tried to smooth things over on a more temporary basis with the addition of $3.5 billion to reserves using over-the-weekend repurchase agreements. Journeyman (06/29/01; 16:46:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 57187) Chilling P.S.@ALL Hi ALL!I would have much preferred using the time spent on the last post responding to Sir Randy's "money" series.Regards,Journeyman Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (06/29/01; 16:44:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 57186) Journeyman I asked that question of the Tower five and a half hours ago. I hope you have better luck. If you do, please ask the Tower if a list of handles could be posted of those whose codes have been pulled thus far in 2001? When a code is pulled without acknowledgement, that can mislead the forum. It could be assumed the poster moved on of their own accord, or no longer wishes to participate. When you were axed, only the acknowledgement of USAGOLD alerted the forum. Fortunately for the forum, you are back. There are many prolific posters of the recent past that are silent now. I wonder how many were axed? Journeyman (06/29/01; 16:14:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 57185) Chilling @ET, Stocks, Lies & Ticker Tape, Randy, ALL Hi ALL!I was about to post that I believed my brief "vacation" was just a mistake. In fact that was the conclusion I had reached after corresponding with Sir Randy.I had originally considered that my "vacation" might have had something to do with my disagreement on some points with TG, an advocacy of transactional gold, or perhaps certain politically incorrect positions on various other issues. Had I believed this to be the case, I would not be posting here anymore, no matter my reinstatement.As far as any direct communication from USAGOLD or Randy, I still have absolutely no reason to believe those factors played any role what-so-ever in my vacation. In fact, I believe it had to do with a poster here for awhile called "Thai Gold" who seems to have used USAGOLD to help launch his website. It looked upon cursory examinaion, perhaps, as if I was about to repeat that performance.However, there DO seem to be a lot of posting codes going on the "bone pile" lately - - - I even had an hallucination recently that ORO was threatened with excommunication. Is it true ET has been, temporarily at least, banished? If so, why? Such questions are important. Here's why:There is a word that the U.S. Court system likes to use in discussing freedom of speech and censorship. That word is "chill."Censorship can be quite subtle and even unconscious, and sometimes has effects even the censors don't intend. When I was a teen, a very "D" grade movie about a lesbian affair in a dormitory got a good box office because it was banned by the local DA. I know it was a "D" because, since it was banned, I just naturally wanted to see it. I found a theatre outside the local DA's jurisdiction and drove quite a long distance in order to be disappointed.The problem with censorship, or the perception of it, no matter the circumstances, and especially when things aren't well defined (and even when they are), is that people become afraid to talk about all sorts of things. That's what "chill" means.One poster just e-mailed me recently saying he was only reading here once in a while now because things were getting boring and repetitive. Don't know if this represents any kind of consensus, but variety IS the spice of life.It can also be argued, in line with the title of Mises' major work, that any activity that involves "Human Action" is grist for the economic mill. Which makes it, if the proper connections are drawn, relevant to gold and theoretically at least, on topic here. Sometimes posters do tend to leave out the appropriate connections, however;> Intentional or not, I feel a definite drop in temperature in the room and would suggest someone might want to do something about it before things "chill" people so much there's an exodus of uncomfortable folks large enough to drop this forum below "critical mass."Regards,JourneymanP.S. Is it indeed true that ET has been banned? If so, why? Tree in the Forest (06/29/01; 16:06:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 57184) Correction "the EU may promote political correctness" eetc. Tree in the Forest (06/29/01; 16:05:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 57183) Trail Guide You said:Tree in the Forest,I your #57162, it mentions -------Police will shoot, Salzburg summit protesters warned------ and other noted crimes of the day. What does this have to do with this forum? The top of the page says that this site is an ------International Discussion of Gold and the Economy------.Do you think that the tens of thousands or readers that come here,,,,, come here to read the daily police report of who killed and robbed who in the US and Europe? The discussion here is not about whether either of these societies are evil are not. It's about how their economic and monetarymoves will impact gold and our econnomic lives.Me: I agree with you Trail Guide and my posts bear directly on the monetary system called the Euro and on future economics. Let me address your objections this way. First of all, differing systems of government definitely have an effect on economics. Do you believe that the economics of the former Soviet Union was the same as the economics of the United States? Do you believe that a capitalist nation such as the US will achieve the same level of wealth as a communist nation such as North Korea? Secondly, the political situation in Europe will very much affect the Euro and the acceptance of the Euro. We have already seen this with our own eyes, in England, in Ireland, in Denmark and elsewhere. Do you believe that the Jeorg Hader incident and opposition to political parties by the EU will have no effect on what happens with the Euro? Thirdly, politics as we all know, can start wars and it frequently does. I have made a prediction that a war will probably not be avoidable. Do you honestly believe that a war will have no effect on our economic situation? Do you believe that a war will have no effect on gold? Trail Guide, I did not post information on drive-by shootings or drug deals gone bad. This was not a police report! These people were shot in the back by their own countrymen while protesting an economic forum! And I did not at any time bad-mouth the people of Europe. Furthermore, I did not attack you either. This is about a system of government that is rapidly showing us it's fascist bent. I am vehemently opposed to such systems. What I have posted is very much about political upheaval and history tells us that this will indeed effect economics and gold. It is, in fact, why most of us are here; we are anticipating extreme upheaval and gold, we hope, will allow us to survive it. We are just starting to see this mayhem now as a country engaged in a currency war tries to force it's political and economic policies down it's own people's throats. There is little doubt in my mind that this currency war could erupt into a shooting war. I intend to continue to bring up the political situation in Europe when I think it applies to our future monetary problems. Michael can pull my password any time he feels that is necessary. The ECB might promote political correctness in Europe but I hope that PC will not be promoted on this forum. Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (06/29/01; 16:00:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 57182) Trail Guide You have tap danced around the question behind my post. It was simply, what was in ET's post #57125 that warranted his code being pulled?As for your crack at my being "at a different level", perhaps I am. I can withstand criticism. I also admit when I believe I am wrong. ANOTHER clearly states that "Gold is the only money the world has ever known", so when you claim I am wrong to say "gold is money", you must support your position. Unless, of course, you are "at a different level". Rockgrabber (06/29/01; 15:53:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 57181) Mid-East http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/06/29/LatestNews/LatestNews.29403.html What would Mr. Sharron think of this? Rockgrabber (06/29/01; 15:49:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 57180) I am going to post some Mid-East readings for today... http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/breaking_8.html I believe that when this war breaks out that is when inflation will hit, COMEX will default on gold contracts, the dollar will suck. How will they hold gold down anymore when Oil really takes off ($50+)? Mr Bin Laden might come alive at this same moment, you can bet Iraq will, along will so very many Arab Nations. This event I believe at this time could be the Fifth Horseman. Everything else is in place, this would break the straw. megatron (06/29/01; 14:56:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 57179) 'Paper' guys You may want to take a look at the TSE PM index. It held yesterday and today at the 4500 level. This trend line began in Oct 2000 and seems quite stong. Same with gold , bounced off 269. This should mean another small run-up, of course to be beaten down again. There does seem to be a certain strength on the buy side of the index though, agreed?As for the(Z)Euro, I guess they just resorted to killing them outright , instead of draining them slowly with another garbage currency. It's quicker. Turnaround (06/29/01; 14:51:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 57178) Trail Guide- the role of force Trail Guide (06/29/01; 14:04:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 57176)comment"Tree in the Forest,"I your #57162, it mentions -------Police will shoot, Salzburg summit protesters warned------ and other noted crimes of the day. What does this have to do with this forum? The top of the page says that this site is an ------International Discussion of Gold and the Economy------.Do you think that the tens of thousands or readers that come here,,,,, come here to read the daily police report of who killed and robbed who in the US and Europe? The discussion here is not about whether either of these societies are evil are not. It's about how their economic and monetary moves will impact gold and our econnomic lives. "Sir Trail Guide,There was a post from you about three weeks ago referencing the proposed European Union rapid reaction force, emphasis on "force". "EU calls for an iron fist to crush the summit protestersBy Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in GothenburgTree in the Forest prefaced his comments with "This is the kind of headline that will keep the Zero [meaning Euro] under the cosh for a long long time". Iron fists in velvet gloves have much to do with our economic lives. To force (there's that word again) people to use a fraudulent fiat-currency instead of a money with intrinsic value requires crushing dissent (See "The Rotten Heart of Europe article linked earlier) using a) police powers internally, b) military force internally and externally c) buying off or shutting down the press d) culling honest intellectuals from academia and e) brain-washing children using the State's public education system. The War on Gold illustrates. This is the reality in the US and I would imagine in Europe as well. Some folks are just not going to voluntarily comply with the totalitarian dreams of would-be masters, not now and not ever. Crossroads (06/29/01; 14:25:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 57177) ji Thanks for the link, looks like plenty of good reading. Should be required for all! Trail Guide (06/29/01; 14:04:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 57176) comment Tree in the Forest,I your #57162, it mentions -------Police will shoot, Salzburg summit protesters warned------ and other noted crimes of the day. What does this have to do with this forum? The top of the page says that this site is an ------International Discussion of Gold and the Economy------.Do you think that the tens of thousands or readers that come here,,,,, come here to read the daily police report of who killed and robbed who in the US and Europe? The discussion here is not about whether either of these societies are evil are not. It's about how their economic and monetary moves will impact gold and our econnomic lives. To others, this forum is privately owned. MK can throw me and all of us off any time he wants. The format to discuss here is at his discretion,,,,,,, not ours. Further, anyone can disagree here and every poster knows that. So, when:---Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape # 57170)-----is making a case that one cannot disagree,,, that is a worthless statement in the eyes of every thinking person. Also, Chivalrous conduct was the manner of presentation and speech that was chosen by the owner and for us to stay here we must debate in a similar orderly civil fashion. Otherwise there are many other forums to go to and get you head bit off! If one thinks such discussion promotes the finding of deeper truth,,,,,, then try them out?Also, why do you think we have a "pretense of chivalrous conduct"? For myself and many other that read here, this IS the way we are! Are you telling us you are at a different level?--------------------VanRip (06/29/01; 13:01:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 57171)Ross and Another's 60253I wonder just what Another was thinking when he made that ------"Gold is the only money the world has ever known" Sounds like a simple thought but it isn't"??I do wish someone would explain that post for us and how it refutes our "Money" discussion.--------------------Perplexed (06/29/01; 12:45:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 57169)You say------history has proven that those in a position of authority or power have defined money for those under their control.--------to carry that thought further,,,,,,, the only reason people are under the (economic) control of authority is because they save their wealth in the form of the defined money! If they saved their savings in gold, and spent the money as it was earned,,,,, there would be far less control over their economic life.Perplexed,We stick with the defined money because we enjoy the credit qualities it offers. Western people trap themselves because they crave the lifestyle a buy now and never pay "money system" provides them. If they did all their dealings under a wealth gold system,,,,,, cash barter on the barrel head,,,,, they would be very unhappy and throw out the officials in power. you say------A law defining money in the context of a given quantity, as well as quality of gold or silver as contained within our Constitution creates gold and silver money, and the only way it may be dethroned is by amendment.-------Here you endorse the very law creating authority needed to identify money,,,,,, yet, ET and others riled against this same position when I mentioned the Euro System declaring gold a pure wealth asset without credit qualities. Do you want government in this business or no?---------------Hello KarenSue and welcome!TrailGuide KarenSue (06/29/01; 13:56:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 57175) Money vs. Currency In order for currency to also be money is must have some intrinsic value. Money is not always currency. Currency is not always money. Only when currency has intrinsic value does currency take on both attributes. Only when money is circulated as a medium of exchange does money take on both attributes. Gold can be both money and currency. When gold is not currency it is still money. Gold is always money. Gold is not always currency.Silver can be both money and currency. When silver is not currency it is still money. Silver has been always money. Silver is not always currency.Paper and electronic bytes can be currency. Paper and electronic bytes have not always been currency. Paper and electronic bytes will not stand the test of time and will cease to be currency given the time and effort of governments to devalue it to uselessness as currency. Paper and electronic bytes have never had and will never have intrinsic value. Paper and electronic bytes have never been money. Paper and electronic bytes will never be money.Gold will always be money. Silver has always been money. Both have sometimes been currency. Paper has never been money. Paper will never be money.In the purest sense ANOTHER is right in the position that gold is the only money because no other substance known to exist can do the job as well as gold. It is a given that silver is a good second. There is no close third.Only meKS Tree in the Forest (06/29/01; 13:54:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 57174) Stockmarket They've shutdown the NASDAQ perhaps to better throw all of their resources into the DJ. Of course the shutdown was due to a computer problem. Yeah right. Tree in the Forest (06/29/01; 13:45:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 57173) Stockmarket A pitched battle is being waged today on the DJ between bulls and bears. At the moment, it looks like the bears are winning. Peter Asher (06/29/01; 13:09:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 57172) @Gandalf or anyone else who has a Market site to view other then the above. http://finance.lycos.com/home/livecharts/ Can you check the Volume figures, especially that one ten minute spike. Today could be headed for record volume if the figures are right. The question was raised on GE last night as to the possibility that The Government dropped away from the Microsoft suit as a way to re-ignite the Bull Market VanRip (06/29/01; 13:01:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 57171) Ross and Another's 60253 Ross, Thanks for the heads up on Another's post 60253. Good find. Here's a little more on gold as money from his post:<<<Background; to understand the following you must rethink your basic knowledge of money and investments. Get your aspirin ready.Some time ago gold not only was used as money but also circulated as currency. It had always been money and people had no use for a separate currency to represent "gold money" so they stamped the gold itself and used it as circulating currency. From the start, one thing most thinkers can't quite grasp is that "money does not have to circulate"! The first "world money", gold money that is, could stay locked up and still represent value and wealth. People had but to agree on who owned it in exchange for goods and services. You have all read the articles about how paper receipts for "gold money" were later circulated and became paper currency receipts, then paper currency, then just currency.The western world today, as we know it does not use money ! They use "paper currency". To fully understand what that really means you must come to terms with this fact. " When you use paper currency you are placing a value using another persons concept of value" You are using a thought as a means of value! When an investment in stocks, bonds, bank accounts, CASH, businesses etc. is priced in US$ currency you are really holding the "intentions of providing value" locked away in the thoughts of another mind.>>> Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (06/29/01; 12:46:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 57170) Randy @ the Tower Is it true that ET has had his code tossed onto the "bone pile"? Was his last post #57125 sufficient cause to do so? Other than expressing a measure of disagreement, I see no transgression. I always assumed the Tower walls were made of limestone or granite. Increasingly though the walls are testing out as plaster over balsa wood. If the forum is merely supposed to be a platform of solid agreement with USAGOLD, Randy, TG/FOA, Another, etc. regarding all things gold, then please drop the pretense of chivalrous conduct.Differing opinions and healthy skepticism stretches the imagination and spurs the effort necessary to lurk and to contribute. If it is true, then it is a sad day indeed. The best well along the internet highway has been poisoned. Perplexed (06/29/01; 12:45:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 57169) Peter Asher Good Morning PeterYou are right, but at this late date I have absolutely inkling as to how to follow a trail so long cold. I have a sneaking suspicion that the man bought the property for the one silver dollar. Because the Constitution is technically still the Supreme Law of the land, with libraries full of precedents,I suspect that like many "settlements" reached with the qualifications that the details remain secret, in order to keep the case from creating some major legal embarrasments in addition to adding a more recent volume in the presedent catagory, that he was told to just take the property and shut up!RANDY AND TGIMO as well as ANOTHER, you are on very unstable ground by attempting to remove the label of money from gold. While the definition of money may not remain uniform in every nation or community, history has proven that those in a position of authority or power have defined money for those under their contol.A law defining money in the context of a given quantity, as well as quality of gold or silver as contained within our Constitition creates gold and silver money, and the only way it may be dethroned is by ammendment.As I stated several months ago, the Federal Reserve as a private contractor may print anything the government will allow to be circulated and we the public will accept in lieuof real money. This currency enjoys the stature it now possess only because the courts have steped around the issue by declaring it legal to either offer or accept FRN's, however, the courts have not voided, nor has Congress repealed the Currency act of 1792. The money of account is still gold and silver, and until congress declares something else to be as "money" it will remain the lawful money of the United States. The Fed is not above the law and have their neck on the chopping block. When it hits the fan and the courts are forced to rule on the Constititionality of Fed "money" they will be forced to re-evaluate in the terms set forth within the Constitution. This is the reason we will get honest money only in the aftermath of a financial melt down.Perplexed Leigh (06/29/01; 12:13:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 57168) ET ET got purged, everyone. Gone, but not forgotten - we'll never forget you, ET!! SHIFTY (06/29/01; 11:55:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 57167) RossL Last weeks Ponzi #s 6,319.71 Ponzi down 6.32Off to cut the grass.$hifty Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (06/29/01; 11:31:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 57166) Paper Tigers Gold is not mined in the quatities it is for its demand as jewelry or for its other industrial uses. It is mined for its use as money. Peasants like myself are intimidated under the Law from using gold as money. Yet those responsible for this economic tyranny accept nothing else but gold as money.The search for a substance to be named "money" ended hundreds of years ago. Gold won out. Play semantics if you wish with the word "money", just realize that in the absence of governmental avarice, there is but one economic truth - and that is, gold is money. Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (06/29/01; 11:21:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 57165) Ross L THANK YOU! You da MAN! (May they put that in their pipe and smoke it!) CoBra(too) (06/29/01; 11:12:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 57164) @ BB (msg#57114) Hello Sir Black Blade, I totally concur with your above message, except that I also trade some very specific juniors, as long as I've got some say either from the inside (a tough proposition, since I usually lose out, by not being able to sell, due to moral considerations!) or from the outside (a different proposition, alltogether!). And yes I've been associated with Coral Gold for years and like the property, which BTW is called the Robertson Property, and as I've been part of negotiations with Amax Gold some years back, we've been lucky to get out of the JV with them back in 95. I'm not denying, that I'm a "Western Thinker", though as I have to admit, I've probably doubled my physical lately by reinvesting 50% of the proceeds of the sale of some DROOY and most all of HM with MK (Thank you Michael for great prices!). Call it lucky, or just say I'm an incorrigible or even irreclaimable adventurer, it's still fun. ... and thank you, BB for all your work here - it's a(u)wsome - Have a great holiday weekend all - cb2 RossL (06/29/01; 11:00:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 57163) "Gold is the only money the world has ever known" http://www.usagold.com/GoldTrail/archives/ANOTHER1.html Date: Thu Oct 09 1997 19:00 ANOTHER ( THOUGHTS! ) ID#60253:"Gold is the only money the world has ever known" Sounds like a simple thought but it isn't ."Another" has defined gold as money. It's right here on the Another page. Tree in the Forest (06/29/01; 10:39:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 57162) Repost- -Thank you to Maddog http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=002489231431498&rtmo=rQrm9QbX&atmo=tttttttd&pg=/et/01/6/18/wsum18.html (Maddog)Jun 29, 11:23Police will shoot, Salzburg summit protesters warnedThis is the kind of headline that will keep the Zero under the cosh for a long long time. Two weeks ago in Gothenburg 3 demonstrators against the lack of EU democracy were SHOT by the Police. Now we have a public warnig of more to come if people protest. This is no joke, the EU is headed straight towards a dictatorship and people of all types are getting very upset. This is not a recipe for good times.Money will continue to leave the EU twds the US as a safe haven, regardless of fundementals.Me: And this from another article(link above):"EU calls for an iron fist to crush the summit protestersBy Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in GothenburgThe country's newspapers were asking yesterday how their mild-mannered police could have opened fire with live ammunition against their own citizens for the first time since 1931.Televised video film showed a young demonstrator being shot in the back, belying initial claims by the authorities that the shooting was purely an act of self-defence. The young Swede was in critical condition yesterday."Yeah the EU are a great bunch of guys. At least the trains will run on time! Orville Goldenbacher (06/29/01; 10:10:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 57161) Uses of Gold and Silver as Barter for Labor.... On occasion i hire a little help around the ranch. I pay $6.50 an hour for general labor. The first 3 hours i pay in cash (money), additional hours are paid in silver coinage, Silver eagles, etc. I pay at the end of each day.Since i pay at the end of each day, gold is rarely used in our day to day transactions. We might try adding up the "silver hours" to the end of the week and pay in gold every friday. Yes, sounds like a plan. Gold and Silver in Barter for Labor. I also believe silver has much potential as a barter tool.Go Nickel....OG Trail Guide (06/29/01; 09:47:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 57160) Money Exceptional post Randy! It makes a very clear statement that's easy for us to understand:--- Randy (@ The Tower) (06/28/01; 18:07:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 57115) Sierra Madre and the obscurities of a concept called "money" -----I want to enter this discussion a bit and use both yours and other's statements. I'm following your lead when you wrote: -----It's one thing to discuss money or monetary systems generically, but it's time we give the actual concept of "money" (in and of itself) some of the intense attention it deserves, particularly here at a gold discussion forum. ---------------------( Randy #57115) Gold is definitely wealth; its a highly liquid, immutable, tradable tangible asset. For that reason some of us can never have too much of the stuff. But is it "money"? In your comment to von Braun, you indicated that our units of "dollars" were once upon a time defined as a definite quantity of gold.---------------ALL:the above thought creates the correct mindset for grasping just what money is. Gold is not money and never has been. No more so than hats or any other physical item. Back when we had no form of currency both hats and gold could serve the same function in trade. What was that function? The using of an item of wealth,,,,,, the using of some real thing to trade for something else we wanted.I challenge the readership, including ORO, Journeyman and all others, to search history and show me anywhere that physical gold was traded as money. In every instance you can present, I'll show you gold used in "wealth barter" and incorrectly labeled money. FurtherThe only thing that separated gold from hats or any other wealth object was gold's rarity, beauty and unique physical properties. Indeed, a hat's value was worth something in trade, no different than a gold coin. Just not worth as much as gold's value in trade. Neither gold or hats were money then, or money now. Rather just items of wealth we trade for other items of wealth.This very concept is what so confounds modern Hard Money thinkers and corrupts their efforts to regain the high ground of money thought and legitimate money process. It's also the mutation of this concept that, from the first introduction of "money", bankers and officialdom used to snare the hard money world. Notice Sir Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape's #57150. In his post he makes a point that's perfect in example and truth of the above. But, I doubt this was his logic in making the statement. I'll reorder it for clarity.-----Every culture upon discovery has quickly learned this monetary truth. Only in gold is money quantified.-------Exactly, sir! Gold is the very tradable wealth that we can quantify money with. How? By giving everyone an exact amount of tradable "VALUE" to identify the currency's tradable value. The gold itself is not the money,,,, it's the tradable wealth we can value money with. In this, we know a currency money's exact value in our economic world of trade by tying it to a real wealth piece of that economic world. Gold! Our world today is no different than it was in ancient times. We trade things of value for things of value. We barter with each other, things for things. Only, for modern speed and convince, we use money to denominate this barter trade. Mostly paper money.It's well known that many of us conduct only half of this barter transaction. Preferring to keep, therefore save, the paper money our barter brings us. We chose to do this instead of finishing the deal by trading the currency for something else,,,,, for some other thing. The other side of the barter deal is left open by our retention of this paper money. This is the concept of a "Money Supply" in circulation! In our modern world, we own and save the unfinished side of a barter deal. In this we risk the loss of value said money in circulation can experience. This is the entire theater of our years of political scrambling over money. We act out the play; of trying to make this circulating money retain value. From the beginning, man has entertained countless ways to lock his "money" to some form of "fixed barter able wealth, like gold. All done in order to keep it from falling in value before he completes the other half of the barter trade. That is spend his money. This is called price inflation and is the result of printing to much paper money. This process of tying our money to some form of tradable gold wealth does not make gold money,,,,,, it only ties the tradable value of gold to the money in a effort to slow the printing press..We have a choice. We can use physical gold , not money, to trade for other goods. It makes no difference whether the gold chunk is in official coin form or in pure unshaped gold form. When we use gold, outright, we are bartering wealth things for wealth things. No different than if we used the hats mentioned above. Two hats for one chair is the same barter as two chairs for one piece of gold. The use of gold in a trade does not make said gold money in that trade. No more so than the use of hats in a trade would make hats "money". Gold is but one form of wealth that's been held throughout the ages and held for it's tradable value. It's not money. When governments mint gold coin for our use; they are minting an unit of wealth for barter trade and sanctioning it's use within our "money concept". The gold coin itself is not money and spending it constitutes wealth barter in lieu of trading money.The other choice humankind has had is to use money to denominate all of our barter trade. In this form paper money,,,,, currency,,,, plain official coins are all just receipts of barter trade. That is what money is. It truly has little determined value outside what we can trade it for. I will give ten dollars for a hat because I have seen hats trading for around ten of those dollar receipts before. I can then use that value comparison to trade said ten bucks for a chair. This is the use of the money,,,,, the money concept. The money concept mostly works as seen in our use of plain money for over 30 years. None of us Western users attach our money's value to gold. We attach it to what others trade it for. Yes, it has robbed us of much wealth value by saving and using it. But, even the use of gold in outright trade barter has some historic risk. See further below.-----Money is not real wealth. It has no real wealth anchor outside what our use makes it. We and the majority of people use modern paper money for it's convenience in trade for wealth,,,, not it's ability to be wealth. We try to make our paper moneys be worth a fixed value of real wealth by tying it to a real tradable value, gold. Our paper money's value can be as stable as our printers deem it. They can print only a fixed amount and it would retain value. Or they can print as much as possible and it's value goes down. It has no fixed, denominated valueThis is the problem of money,,,,, the problem of the money concept. Grasp tightly upon this notion:"" The use of money is the process of trading outside of barter. Money is a concept of "denominating a wealth value" whereas barter is "trading the actual value of a real thing" For sure, neither has a fixed long term value. Even we have a time worth limit. We all become dust at some point. Still, the tradable value of both the "money concept" and "of real wealth" can and does change with man's wants and needs. However, real wealth trading has a long history of bring the most in trade over long time spans.From mention above: The barter of gold has a fine example of not holding value forever. That can be found in history when vast gold stores were brought into Europe long ago. Still, the record of our "money concept" holding value is zero!So, back to the problem at hand-----( Randy #57115) But soon after, the bell ceased its clear peals, and somehow gold (under the bulk of its dollar weight <ha ha!>) got unfortunately mired down in the concept we call "money". As it turns out in the end, the "dollar" could morph itself into the "right shape" for money, but despite gold's supreme ductility and malleability, the metal could not.---------------Thanks Randy!Absolutely! No currency,,,,, no money,,,,, in our history has been able to withstand the socialist expansions of man's printing press. Even his minting press had expansive ways! When we used physical gold coin alone,,,,, that barter able wealth,,,,, and labeled it money,,,, we immediately expanded it's circulation by lending it from banks. Once it's labeled money, people will lend it and once it's lent your receipt for gold is no longer a barter able wealth,,,,,, it became part of the "money concept". Make no mistake, mankind has before and will again use physical gold in barter by trading it wealth for wealth. But once we try to morph it into money, it's function is diminished by socialist design. This is why the Kemp story is so important. Modern economics has come head to head with the drive by our socialist hard money school to place gold within the money world of credit bankers. A school of thought born of bankers and instituted so bankers could inflate money with no measurement by Free Gold. Once within the banking money world, the limiting nature of a "gold fix" is quickly printed away through the use of credit. Completely opposite from what hard money thought teaches,,,, the trading of Free Gold,,,, when separate from the banking function of money,,,, enhances the utility of gold as a tradable wealth item. Ancient history proves this out. This history of barter trading of gold existed far longer than any currency ever has,,,,,, and did so whether a money traded by gold's side or not! That utility function,,,, the trading of god wealth thru barter,,,,, is what creates it's real demand. Such real demand for trade and savings is what makes gold rise in value, step by step with the speed of any printing press of money. The hard school notes that gold would rise way to high! I say measured in what? It would not rise at all against other things,,,, once it's utility price was reached!From there it would mostly stay the same in value,,,, it's the moneys of the world that would fall as their never ending bubbles find their proper place in time. This was and is the only way to measure our printing press speed. It's needed, for we will never again stop those presses as they now have a digital function in this modern world.Free Gold would allow both citizens and private investors to set the proper exchange rates for currencies and what free market interest rates to place on the same. Mr. Kemp has placed his finger exactly on this point! He is not the first to see this.Our worldly trade function has finally hit the end of it's ability to coexist with gold and money being morphed as one. Even though the dollar left the standard years ago, gold remained in the official money credit grasp as our ongoing manipulation indicates. We can no longer afford to bastardize a wealth so important in it's trade and wealth saving function by tying it with our money concept. This has been the thrust of the Euro Project all along as it replaces the failing dollar. The failing dollar and it's war on gold. The thrust the US is now trying to use to save it's failing system. To little, to late!Thanks MK, Randy, ALLTrailGuide USAGOLD (06/29/01; 09:39:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 57159) Add on to previous message I should have mentioned that the Short & Sweet posted is roughtly one-third the article. To read the rest you will need access to the Commentary & Review page which requires the one-time registration. . . . USAGOLD (06/29/01; 09:35:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 57158) Short & Sweet: Greenspan Won't Bail Out Dollarized Countries, but What About Future Fed Chairmen? http://www.usagold.com/Order_Form.html These reports are published regularly at the Commentary & Review page, access by password only. A quick and easy one-timeregistration is required. Go to the link above. Your free subscription includes our popular monthly newsletter: NEWS &VIEWS: Forecasts, Commentary & Analysis on the Economy and Precious Metals--------------SHORT & SWEET. . . . . . . . . . . ..Gold rebounded sharply this morning from the recent interest-rate inspired sell-off - - up $1.70 as we go to fetch this over to the server. . . . . . . . . . . . .Seems the shorts misread and over-estimated the impact of less than hoped for .25% interest rate rise. As gold interest rates go up and dollar interest rates go down, the arbitraged return in the gold carry trade narrows. What the shorts have not completely absorbed through all of this is that the gold lending business is in the workout stage already and the fact that the cut was a quarter instead of a half has little bearing on this process already in motion. The shorts are trying to psyche-out the gold market. I don't think it's going to work. . . . .Apparently Alan Greenspan isn't as enthusiastic about foreign countries using the dollar for their currency as the countries themselves are. "We obviously are very much aware of what is going on in the rest of the world and indeed factor it into our decisions, but the decisions are cued to the best interests of this country,'' the Fed chief emphasized. "We have to make it very clear that we cannot be the guarantor or the supervisor or the regulator or the lender of last resort to economizes that choose to dollarize,'' Greenspan said. Greenspan said. "The main point is that if they can succeed in doing it, it will stabilize, and indeed has stabilized economies, but it is a high risk operation,'' he added. . . . Ed. Note: I find the lender of last resort comment particularly interesting. I consider "dollarization" a problem for the Fed and the United States, not so much for what Alan Greenspan would do in the case of a systemic breakdown in country like Argentina, but for what a future Fed chairman without the perspicacity, sophistication and experience of the current Fed chairman might do under such circumstances in the future. . . . . . . . "This is a staggering thought. We are completely dependent, on the Commercial Banks. Someone has to borrow every dollar, we have in circulation, cash or credit. If the Banks create ample synthetic money, we are prosperous; if not, we starve. We are, absolutely, without a permanent money system. When one gets a complete grasp of the picture, the tragic absurdity, of our hopeless position, is almost incredible, but there it is. It is the most, important subject, intelligent persons can investigate and reflect upon. It is so important that our present civilization may collapse, unless it becomes widely understood, and the defects remedied very soon." -- Robert Hemphill, Atlanta Federal Reserve Bank . . . . . . . . . . . . . . GDP grew at 1.2% annual rate in the first quarter. The government originally reported a growth rate of 2%. Energy costs and inventory build-ups are taking their toll. . . . . . . . ..................The United States is not the only country printing money like its going out of style. The EU . . . . . . . . rc (06/29/01; 09:24:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 57157) What is money? Definition of money in the strict meaning of the word : something generally accepted as a medium of exchange , a measure of value, or a means of payment. Such as gold, silver, copper, wampum, cattle or whatever you can exchange against anything else.In that sense even the paper we use is money, although as it is a fraud, it has no value by itself. It is forced on us by the governments. Albeit with the full compliance of the general brainwashed population. You can't counterfeit cattle or gold or whatever and say it is worth more than 100 times the real thing. This is what the governments do when they print papers or mint coins that cost them a few cents and sell it back to you at 100 or even a thousand times its value.As an example, the Canadian Loonie costs 12 cents to mint but you must sweat one dollar's work to get one. It costs, the US government, 26 cents for a bundle of one thousand bills, whatever the denomination. There is word for that : extortion. Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (06/29/01; 08:46:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 57156) Randy Visually, that URL is eye candy! If used as "money" with gold, gold will win out over silver (and everything else) in short order. Always has, always will. Count on it. History proves it time and again. (Merlin, you have any URLs with pretty pictures of sea shells, or sea salt too?) Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (06/29/01; 08:38:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 57155) Randy Physical gold is and should be money. Money is one form of wealth. OK, Merlin, I'm off to read your URL parchment. Though I stopped my pursuits in pure alchemy some time ago. It was easier to exchange pieces of paper for gold than to turn paper into gold. Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (06/29/01; 08:24:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 57153) Randy "Only through the threat of governmental force does paper masquerade as money between otherwise mentally competent individuals." Apparently you missed this sentence in my post? I dare say the individual who is willing to be paid in paper "money" will be fully employed by me when gold is freely used as money by everyone else. Randy (@ The Tower) (06/29/01; 05:55:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 57152) More... for Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape http://www.usagold.com/gold/coins/morgan.html You make the claim, "Only in gold is money quantified."What words of consolation are you prepared to offer to anyone else who takes a long hard look at the URL above and then begs to differ with your view? Randy (@ The Tower) (06/29/01; 05:50:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 57151) Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape says, "Only gold is money." I, too, shall be open minded and will temporarily indulge your notion. What did you, or your neighbor, or most other people obtain from the bank in order to finance their purchase of their homes? Did you (or the others) use "only gold" to pay for your/their home?When you reach into your wallet to pull out some money to buy tickets to the baseball game, is it "only gold" that you have in there?If we can all agree that all physical gold is wealth (I HOPE we can agree on that), are you suggesting that this means that all money is wealth, too? Or does another conclusion follow? Am I missing a part of your picture?I find this subject matter quite fascinating, I assure you! Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (06/29/01; 05:35:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 57150) Money Only gold is money. Whenever you see or hear anything else