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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 4/28/2001
All times are U.S. Mountain Time
(Yesterday's Discussion.)
JMB
(4/28/01; 23:51:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 52790)
LELAND @ GOLD-EAGLE
I've been accused of some pretty strange things, but never have I been accused of "Coypying". Take it back or I'll suye you;)
Canuck
(4/28/01; 22:57:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 52789)
R Powell, YGM
Thanks for chatting gentlemen.
I don't know about you guys but I'm getting very excited, like a six year old kid. I got pre-maturely excited about 22 times in the last 2 years and maybe this is round #23 but I'm REALLY getting excited.
Piles of good news in the last 3/4 weeks, things are looking good.
I've been watching the gold stocks, they are starting to run
very aggressively. Half a dozen mutual funds that I follow are at one year highs. The stocks are almost pushing the POG higher and you know what they say, "..the market is a six month leading indicator, blah, blah, blah."
James Turk WAS super cool in the article as Rich mentions. This crooked scheme is becoming more evident day-to-day.
Just got home 10 minutes ago from a buddies '40th'. Can't decide to have another drink or go to bed.
You guys (everyone) are the greatest, have a golden (rest of) week-end.
Canuck.
P.S.: Anyone a little sceptical or a little nervous; check out James Turk's latest over at G-E. The ESF has been caught
again!!!!
Rockgrabber
(4/28/01; 22:21:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 52788)
Black Blade
http://www.lasvegas.com/sunbin/stories/lv-other/2001/apr/28/042800859.html
Mr. Black Blade, stories like this are coming familiar. Thanks for having been on top of all this. Thanks for sharing your info. You see our good ol V.P. statements on our (Californias) energy crises? I know you have. Good point about this being not just felt in the intitial run up of prices, but the ramifications of those price hikes. This knife is getting pretty sharp. It can prick a bubble alright. It seems like a hacksaw, just sawing away at the bars holding the price of gold captive. Here let me give it a few pulls (I am buying more gold!!!) All I can at all times.
Rockgrabber
(4/28/01; 22:09:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 52787)
GOLD what a great study!
The study of GOLD. How very fascinating. Look at all of golds derivitives 1.) World history 2.) World Goverments 3.) The Economy 4.) Energy Markets 5.)Stock Markets 6.)currency Markets (all Markets) ECT. Ect. ect.
I guess what I am thinking is that if you study the subject of gold, you will have a much better understanding of us humans, and our ways, and who you are. Good Fortune to you. I am having fun. Cheers, to all you good people who have chosen to discard your blinders!
Rockgrabber
(4/28/01; 21:19:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 52786)
Gold Paper Pricing
How can we expect to see gold rise as long as it is priced in paper contracts?? It only takes a call to sell thousands of onces you dont even hold. If the BIS wants to resurrect gold back to its place as the worlds greatest value retainer, this makes sense. Look who is going to be holding the gold. The people who wish to make the rules, and value gold for one. And then us.. People who also cherrish gold for what it is. That would do it. The paper price breaks apart, and only the real stuff is what it seems. 30,000 an once sound simple. But it cant be obtained unless you do what they have just about finished doing. You break gold from a paper pricing system. I thank Trail Guide, but I do think I would now have this fugured. I guess my point is just to say I expect gold not to move, untill that COMEX default. Or an announcement that would instantly drain the ole wharehouse in a second.
The new gold trade of the year?? Sell everything you dont need and get all the real gold you can.
YGM
(4/28/01; 20:08:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 52785)
Gold Info.......
http://www.pamp.ch/Gold/index.html
A to Z more than you ever needed to know.....
YGM
(4/28/01; 19:59:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 52784)
Canuck
100% CORRECT
You're on the money buddy,,,PDG did contribute Shhhhhh!
Others did also but we'll keep quiet............Best Regards....me ...ex-YGM
GO GATA, GO GOLD, GO PHYSICAL @ USA GOLD......REALITY IN A EMAIL......
JMB
(4/28/01; 19:55:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 52783)
It's Saturday night, you haven't got a date, and you need a little pick-me-up...
http://www.contraryinvestor.com/mo.htm
...so check it out.
VanRip
(4/28/01; 19:52:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 52782)
Fleckenstein Update
Bill Fleckenstein's latest on gold, which he refers to as the yellow dog. From his Friday column, the Rap. Interesting observation re shorts on the Comex.
<The yellow dog bayed at the moon a good-bye as it greeted the sunrise up about three bucks. Then it sold off. But remarkably, after being up three bucks and going negative on a Friday, it managed to close down only $0.20, a definite change in its tone. Rap readers may recall that a few weeks ago, I said that my friend and best source Evan Meyers was optimistic about the gold market. Evan states that he is the most bullish on gold that he's ever been in the 10 years since he's been trading it (and he has been mostly bearish over this period). Having said that, he also opined that we have now gotten most of the shorts out of their Comex positions, and that now we can see how the gold market trades on a pullback, if we get one. This is where we may really learn how much the trend has changed. In any case, it's beginning to look more and more like the long-awaited turn in gold may be at hand.>
R Powell
(4/28/01; 19:36:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 52781)
Behind Closed Doors
Thanks to Canuck for posting the link to this earlier today. It's post number 52737.
It prints out at nine pages and is not the easiest report to fully comprehend in the beginning but does put all the pieces together to explain (prove) what was once theory and speculation of ESF's role, with U.S. treasury gold, to surpress the POG over the last 5-6 years!
It underlines the growing shortfall of supply and almost begs the question "How much longer can this continue?"
From my limited knowledge of the markets I would speculate that when/if this hits the mainstream press, no amount of manipulation will contain the POG. IMHO, most investors, traders, and average citizens won't understand all the hows, whys or whens but that won't stop the panic to buy. Those involved with all the knowledge of how precarious the situation has become must be looking for the exits.
Or will this too pass with some spectacular effort or "spin" to justify/clarify/pacify the market into business as usual and again contain POG?? I hate to sound like a fanatic or someone who forgot to take his blood presure medication but I am excited. Speculator psychology being what it is, I really think this could blow up big time. I won't say as some do that "if I'm wrong I'll disappear and not post again" because I've never flattered myself with thinking that I'm that smart to forecast this or any market. I will say it's my honest opinion and, of course, not investment advice. For investment advice, we need to consult the "Corrigan Report".
To all, please tell us what you think after reading this. Thanks and thanks again to Canuck for the heads-up and the link!
Rich
Elwood
(4/28/01; 19:22:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 52780)
ET
Hello, ET.
They don't care about the fiat price. What they care about is a flow of gold in return for their oil. They would ship their oil at $1 per barrel to tiny Lichtenstein only, if the people of Lichtenstein were the only ones willing to provide their gold flow.
It will trade freely, my friend. Believe it.
Sierra Madre
(4/28/01; 19:16:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 52779)
Belgian...about paying salaries in gold and fiat...
You said you "sometimes wonder what would happen if an employer offered to pay 1/3 in gold and 2/3 in fiat".
Well, I can tell you what would happen: the employees would turn the offer down.
I can say this authoritatively, because I already tried it!
Back in the 60's, when the future prospects of gold were only known to a very, very few, I offered to pay my top employees their yearly bonus in gold.
The offer was declined; the bonus money was already committed to other pressing needs.
The same employees, in later years, were mightily sorry they'd had to turn down my offer!
:::::::::::
On Friday, I had a conversation (brief!) with a European banker, Assistant Director of a huge bank. It went like this:
(The banker, smug and patronizing with a supercilious smile)
Bkr: "Mr. X, I know you have a thing about gold, but perhaps I might suggest something better for your investments... Not that I am trying to pressure you to change your opinions, of course."
Sierra: "Sir, nothing you might say, would have the least influence upon my way of thinking."
Bkr: "No, of course not. But, why gold?"
Sierra: " You are a young man, and you have a lot to learn. Time will provide the experience. If you want some classes, you would have to pay me for them, as I find it extremely tiresome to explain things that require long explanations.
And now, thank you for the document you have given me, and Good Day, Sir."
Bkr: (Utterly discomfitted): "No, no, I didn't mean etc. etc."
These arrogant types need to be put in their place now and then, complete nincompoops that they are. Bankers usually know next to nothing about money.
And now, I think I'll have my tequila. ˇSalud, To your health, Santé, Prosit, Skol, Vrashes Dravlya to everyone here!
Sierra.
Peter Asher
(4/28/01; 19:07:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 52778)
Say What????
How do you spell "Contemporary economist" in five letters?
(Black Blade - I just cut out the same article, although for a different rant.)
Re-"economists who say the economy would be better off if more people rented and used their money to invest in stocks and bonds, the study found."
Now let's see: if people buy houses, a host of AMERICAN workers are gainfully employed in construction and administration.
On the other hand, if those same dollars (Whatever MIGHT be left after rent) go into---A) Stocks, then the dollars go into consumer spending by share sellers anywhere on earth, on products anywhere on earth, employing people anywhere on earth. And ,in the process, driving equity prices further into the worthless zone.--Or B) Bonds, then the dollars go into corporate coffers for various "Fat-Cat" games with possibly a bit of trickle-down" into the functional economy. Or, into the black-hole of government vote purchasing.
Simultaneously, housing becomes a landlord's market and the "Wealth-transfer" society is bigger then ever. And, were such an inane event ever to occur, rents would soon consume more dollars than the mortgage payments would have.
The fact that a "study" by "economists" can come up with such an absurdity points directly to the delusion of the "Wealth-factor economy," that being, the taking of real values earned and transferring them to unreal equity equivalents. That delusion is a perception of buying power that is composed mostly of paper promise.
Answer to above spelling question; choose, Idiot or -- Shill!
ET
(4/28/01; 18:19:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 52777)
Elwood
Hey Elwood - always a pleasure to read your stuff! You write in part;
"Yes, the reckoning comes, but they don't need the American demand. They're in this for the long haul, and the oil
they don't ship today lies still to be shipped tomorrow. What they want is a flow of gold to replace their oil as it
depletes, something they're not getting using the dollar."
I agree they are in this for the long haul. I do believe they need American demand because without it, world prices will drop dramatically as world supply would overwhelm world demand. When the Asian economies slowed several years ago, oil prices tanked.
"Of course, none of this changes the characteristics of the fiat. They know this just like we do. For as long as fiat
exists will it ever diminish our savings and capital. This is the cost we are all paying to avoid oil priced at full
value. But maybe we should have oil at full value to better gauge its cost versus the available alternatives (thanks
J-man). I'm sure Mises would view it this way."
Sure. A free market is always superior to the planning we've come to regard as "reality".
"They (Euro folks) are in the same boat. They don't know either, but it's something they're willing to try to avoid the
"full valuing" of the oil they need. As long as they can maintain the virtue of the international physical gold
markets that they've planned, the Euro expansion will have a natural brake. That's why ANOTHER has that saying: "we watch this new gold market together, yes?""
I don't have any faith in the idea that the Europeans can control anything through their planning. Unless they actually trade gold freely, nothing will change. That's what I'm watching for Elwood!
Black Blade
(4/28/01; 17:19:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 52776)
You'll be paying energy costs twice
http://www0.mercurycenter.com/partners/docs1/018527.htm
SOME BUSINESSES RAISING PRICES TO OFFSET SOARING BILLS
Snippit:
Think your energy bills have been sky-high lately? Get ready to pay twice. Business owners are getting slammed by soaring energy costs, meaning consumers will have to pay more for a hot meal, a good haircut or a nice massage. Hotels and restaurants were among the first to pass on the costs of higher utility bills. Now hair salons, athletic clubs and other energy-hogging businesses are reluctantly raising their fees or adding surcharges to their customers' bills. Even San Jose State University is considering charging students a surcharge to help pay its energy bill, expected to be $3 million more than budgeted this year.
Black Blade: I have already addressed this some time ago. I said that higher energy costs will be passed along to consumers in the higher costs of goods and services. Check Mate! Benign inflation? - I don't think so! Energy isn't important to the economy? - I don't Think so! Will it get much worse? - I definitely know so! A little PM insurance is in order.
Canuck
(4/28/01; 17:11:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 52775)
Rumour
And there's a nasty rumour that Barrick is going to give GATA a million bucks!
(Not!!)
;)
Black Blade
(4/28/01; 17:09:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 52774)
Poll: Americans Opt for Homes Over Stocks
http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/010428/business_financial_housing_dc.html
Snippit:
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A poll conducted by an advocacy group promoting home ownership found Americans prefer to buy homes rather than invest in stocks or bonds. People polled disagreed with economists who say the economy would be better off if more people rented and used their money to invest in stocks and bonds, the study found. Of those polled, 52 percent strongly disagreed with that view.
Black Blade: People are looking for hard assets over stock equities. Soon gold and silver could attract a lot of attention as the US economy continues to falter. After the markets tanked it could be difficult to attract new cash. What's that line from the WHO song? - "Won't be fooled again!"
Canuck
(4/28/01; 17:09:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 52773)
@ YGM
I stand to be corrected but I am 99% sure that Placer has contributed to GATA. Placer keeps it quiet now.
I'm 95% certain Anglo has given money to GATA and fairly sure Harmony has also contributed.
Durban is not alone.
Tks.
Black Blade
(4/28/01; 17:00:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 52772)
Stocks View: Slowdown or Ugly Recession?
http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/010428/business_markets_stocks_dc_643.html
Snippit:
NEW YORK (Reuters) - The U.S. economy is changing and Wall Street is telling those bruised investors that there may be something more serious ahead than just a run-of-the-mill slowdown. The National Bureau of Economic Research, the official arbiter of U.S. recessions, said in early April that there is no recession. But the research firm has been off by a country mile in dating recessions before. During the last recession, it announced in April 1991 that a recession had begun in July 1990 and finally disclosed in December 1992 that it had ended in March 1991.The Economic Cycle Research Institute says recessions now appear to be unavoidable in the United States, Japan, Korea and Taiwan, which together represent half of the world's gross domestic product.
Black Blade: As I said before and say again, we Are In A Recession! Numbers can be contrived and the books can be cooked. The PPI and CPI are prime examples. For example using bizarre dishonest statistical deflators such as Hedonics, and Seasonality are only two fraudulent schemes used by the Bureau of Labor Statistics. We "live in interesting times." - Good article!
ET
(4/28/01; 16:59:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 52771)
Journeyman
Hey Journeyman - let me second the well-deserved praise for your rant. I've found much of this stuff to be beyond belief myself. You write in part;
"And keep in mind, our "quirky ideas" are the ones the whole
population shared from around 1800 up thru at least 1933 and
probably 1972. It is the current fiat notions that are the
upstart and quirky notions."
Yes - perhaps some of the propagandists in our midsts might actually read some history, not just pay it lip service or dismiss it out of hand.
Keep those quirky ideas coming!
Elwood
(4/28/01; 16:47:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 52770)
Of Austrians and Arabs
ET (04/28/01; 11:06:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 52752)
Hello, ET. Thanks for considering my words.
You state:
--------
"Their solution to this problem, as I understand it, is to create another fiat scheme to replace the dollar scheme. One problem they are trying to overcome is making this transition without disrupting the world's oil demand component. When the world quits bidding for dollars by switching to euros, the US economy will collapse and with it, its demand for oil. Bringing in the euro at this point serves no purpose I can see in insulating the world from this reckoning, other than perhaps as a perceived shelter for banks/governments/corporations/hot-money, etc."
---------
Yes, the reckoning comes, but they don't need the American demand. They're in this for the long haul, and the oil they don't ship today lies still to be shipped tomorrow. What they want is a flow of gold to replace their oil as it depletes, something they're not getting using the dollar.
Of course, none of this changes the characteristics of the fiat. They know this just like we do. For as long as fiat exists will it ever diminish our savings and capital. This is the cost we are all paying to avoid oil priced at full value. But maybe we should have oil at full value to better gauge its cost versus the available alternatives (thanks J-man). I'm sure Mises would view it this way.
Further:
--------
"I sure don't know what is going to happen, Elwood. I suspect, however, that we are close to the great reckoning, thus holding gold in your hand is the way to go. I don't think the euro is the bridge to anywhere except more of this statist nonsense, and most likely worse than today's statist nonsense."
--------
They (Euro folks) are in the same boat. They don't know either, but it's something they're willing to try to avoid the "full valuing" of the oil they need. As long as they can maintain the virtue of the international physical gold markets that they've planned, the Euro expansion will have a natural brake. That's why ANOTHER has that saying:
"we watch this new gold market together, yes?"
Regards,
Elwood
Turnaround
(4/28/01; 16:19:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 52769)
name that game
Welcome back ORO and Trail Guide, it is wonderful to see your words of wisdom again. Very bullish, too.
Sir Journeyman: count me in, so please revise your estimate upward to four (4).
On search engines for forum archives: I tried to assemble an ORO index a while back, this went nowhere due to technical difficulties like hard drives going up in smoke. One method was to assemble all of the daily archives (I collect 'em all) into a single MS Word document, then do a word search. If different readers do something like this for different subjects and authors, perhaps Sir Randy would post the complied hyperlinks in some little corner?
Sir ORO: Round table convention. Sure, life in the Medieval period was nasty, brutish and short, characterized by unwashed stationary bandits plundering the countryside. But this is not entirely how it is remembered today. We have a romanticized view of chivalry which is used here as a model of conduct. It isn't perfect but imo has helped more than harmed. Text-based signaling between unknown strangers on open networks is still a new communication medium for the hominid mind. This Forum is the most civilized one (with the occasional breaches of trust) I've seen out there in cyberland.
=====
beesting (4/27/01; 11:51:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 52701)
When Governments Commit Crimes Are All citizens Also Guilty?
"First, as I understand it the U.S. Constitution is the supreme law of the land in the U.S. Most agree on this point.
Presidents take a pledge to uphold the "Supreme Law of the Land".
"Now, in 1933 then President Roosevelt broke the law when he by passed congress and the Senate and made it illegal to use Gold in every day trade. He could have easily tried to add an amendment to the Constitution changing the type of "money" to be used in circulation in the U.S. As it stands until the Constitution is amended all of us our technically breaking the law when we use anything but Gold or Silver as tender in payment of debts, as specified in the Constitution. You and I folks or should I say, We The People, are the "enforcers" of the Constitution thru our elected [representatives]."
1) There appears to be a sort of alternate legal universe of the "Corporate State" which allows us, or rather "the People" to circumvent the Supreme Law. Tree in the Forest and ORO have mentioned this in the past couple months and also a few days ago. The Federal Reserve Act, FICA (Social Security Act) and IRC (Internal Revenue Code) are manifestations of this infestation under color of law. So is the gold confiscation EO.
2) A somewhat spotty study of the psychohistory of the Great Depression has yielded some insight into why FDR's owners got away with this. They "knew the American scene" for sure. It is very difficult to locate such records due to the tremendous suppression of information on this subject. It was apparently get busy time for the Winston Smiths of that era. USAGold's "Confiscation Memo" is a good place to start.
3) "Representatives" is a misnomer.
"Now the unanswerable question:
When Governments commit crimes are all citizens also responsible???"
Well, no, not at all. There is no such thing as "the Government". There exist certain natural persons that appear to share some concepts to one degree or other, such as the existence of their bridge club, family, scientific or legal theories. But these are and can only be held by individual minds. There is no collective soul or will of the people.
Thought held by the individual precedes and motivates every human action. If a gang of stationary or roving bandits commits a crime in your neighborhood do you feel responsible for their thoughts?
Does this adequately answer your question?
=======
Example of the "color of law":
The capital letter convention: A name written in all caps represents, or may represent, the legal entity or artificial person. Also called dummy corporation or strawman. The corporate or legal name of the entity dba (doing business as) the US federal government is therefore:
THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA (Inc.?)
Which is used on *internal* circulating coins, memos and Notes. c.f. your wallet.
Internal may mean within the boundaries of U.S. jurisdiction, i.e. federal employees and other entities chartered by the "People". This is illustrated by the IRC, Title 26.
The legal meaning of the term "person" was redefined by the 1898 Bankruptcy Act to include corporations and other artificial organizations. Therefore, the term "natural person" is now used to denote flesh-and-blood human beings. This is effectively an ex post facto law, as the word "person" is used for example in the US Constitution.
"People" btw means "The State" nowadays.
This legal trickery was used to implement the 1933 gold confiscation among other things. FDR & Co. had the 1917 Trading with the Enemy Act revised by substituting the word "persons" (within the US) for non-Americans. All "persons" are therefore considered enemies of the "People". "Within" is another of those slippery words.
Is you a person?
What is "is"?
What People is Persons within?
All persons must value diversity.
Zero tolerance.
Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
Ignorance is strength.
GorgOrwel knos postmod decon. Pepsi, uh huh! Grunt. Urp.
Belgian
(4/28/01; 15:14:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 52768)
Sierra Madre
Enjoyed your posting tremendously ! Every line of it. Thanks for writing !
But shouldn't we compare all aboveground gold against the total volume of printed paper ? M3 and 8.120 tonnes is only a fraction of the big picture. GOLD is miss Universe, not only miss America, isn't she ?
All this gold-comparisons and perspectives are such wonderfull arguments to convince, wise individuals, to accumulate the shiny. But "convincing", someone is often associated with over-powering, this person...and therefore, a very delicate matter.
Altough "hoarding" is a human basic instinct...gold lost its place in that reflex. Sometimes I wonder if some employer should pay 1/3 in physical gold and 2/3 in fiat...what would happen ?
And isn't it funny that I constantly try to find ways to promote gold at this idiotic price-level, instead of shutting up about it and enjoy the stupidity of the price ?
It is probably some hidden doubt, still hiding deep inside.
Or sheer impatience and need for confirmation of the gold-theories ?
It is a very difficult job to argument that the uncomfortable silence on gold is an extreme positive !
This silence is in sharp contrast with the noice on currencies and their IRs. That's why they still have that secret love/hate-affair.
Camel
(4/28/01; 15:13:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 52767)
Population
One aspect of the energy situation that probably hasn't been mentioned enough is the role that increasing population has played. A recent USA Today article stated that the population of this country has increased by 32.7 million between 1990 and 2000 , an amazing 13 % increase in population in ten years. This as much as anything else accounts for the current shortfalls in power generation and will insure increasing demand pressure in this country for both oil and gas in the years to come.
This also probably accounts for a fair amount of the booming economy over the last ten years . Thirty two million is a whole lot of new customers for the big corporations to fight over.!! The Euro zone on the other hand has had only very small population increases and the population of Japan has actually been declining, just coincidentally of course, along with the contraction of the Japanese economy.
As far as global warming is concearned it has probably had a benificial effect on energy consumption. It is believed that 6 of the hottest years of the last 100 have occured in this decade which has resulted in increasing summer consumption for cooling but decreased use of natural gas for heating during the mild winters. Last winter has shown that a very cold winter has a much more pronounced effect on natural gas prices than the hot summers.
The prize for the greatest blunder in the area of energy should probably go to Reagan as it was Reagan who gutted the fuel efficiancy standards for the auto industry that had been established under Carter. The result has been that the average millage of the fleet of American cars has declined from about 28 mpg in 1985 to about 24 mpg today.. The Europeans ,on the other hand, have been succesful in reducing the gas milage of their fleet of vehicles to the mid thirties through coercive tax policies and are much better prepared to cope with increasing oil prices.
Randy (@ The Tower)
(4/28/01; 14:57:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 52766)
Making progress?
Journeyman,
In a post yesterday you said, "Hi Sir Randy! I don't wish to participate in "gold banking!" I wish to participate in gold transactions."
My good friend, I am glad to see your position expressed in such plain English, because it confirms that my perception on this was correct all along. You want transactional gold, period.
My point all along is that you cannot reasonably expect to have the one (transactions) without the other (investment banking).
For as surely as you find the one electronic gold transfer service provider who will swear on a Bible to stick to simple transfer and not to facilitate gold lending, I assure you, there will be others competing in the business who will offer returns on the stored gold -- returns that are generated through lending and whatnot. And as this practice works its inflationary effect upon the apparent quantity of gold atoms bidding for the limited goods in the real economy, then my friend, you will find that the purchasing power of your "transactional gold atoms" is brought low along with the atoms that are out on loan.
And from there, this story has been carved deeply into the tablets of mankind's history.
And to clarify another point I made about square pegs in round holes, it isn't that the "transactional" ability of electronic gold is the square peg. It isn't. It is the use of the system within our current context that is unnatural. Almost nobody has a source of gold income. To convert their currency into gold, they are up against a spread. When you walk into a fine restaurant that does not have the custom of accepting gold payments, I can see you winking at your guests, saying "No problem, my service provider will simply sell enough gold to raise the necessary dollars with which to pay my bill. When the restaurant swipes my GOLD card through their machine, they'll never know that I paid in gold!"
Doesn't this go against human nature and against some element of Gresham's law? First, why would you put yourself through the incremental expenses of the cash-gold-cash exchange spreads any more quickly than necessary? And second, given the free choice to pay with gold or to pay with paper, doesn't it seem more prudent to save the gold for a future day? Because surely, in our coming "new gold market" the gold will hold or gain value over time, but the paper will lose some small bit...yet not likely enough to outweigh your incremental losses on the exchange spreads, particularly if you are like many people who live paycheck to paycheck.
ET
(4/28/01; 14:51:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 52765)
Topaz
Hey Topaz - I hope things aren't getting too scary!
Yeah - it would be hard to believe that central planners would include in those plans their own destruction. I sure haven't seen any evidence of it in the history books! Like I mentioned to Elwood, I sure don't know what is going to happen, but I'm quite positive the planners will go out kicking and screaming.
ORO mentioned awhile back;
"The bull market in government is over."
Yup - meaning the bear market in metals is over also.
Journeyman
(4/28/01; 14:40:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 52764)
Grehsham's Law @ Sierra Madre, ALL
Hi Sierra!
GREAT post!! Definitely a keeper!
If you take a very close look at Gresham's Law as it was originally stated, it says essentially, "bad money drives out the good WHEN THERE ARE LEGAL TENDER LAWS." (There are other applications, but when dealing with the easily discernable difference between specie (gold and silver) and paper, this historical form is completely appropriate.)
That's because there are two sides to a transaction. Without legal tender coercion in a specie vs. paper decision, the "seller" would demand "good money" or he wouldn't sell, or at least he would demand a big premium to sell for depreciating paper. It's this circumstance that legal tender laws try to paper over.
But in times of extreme inflationary stress, they don't work. As people begin to see the fiat depreciate right before their eyes, they realize they'd have to be nuts to accept it at face value and it's that perception which precipitates a crack-up-boom.
High regards,
Journeyman
Tree in the Forest
(4/28/01; 14:36:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 52763)
CoBra(too)
Good one sir! Democratic Republic of the Federal Reserve. They have their own currency and staatspolizei Treasury agents so why not a sovereign state? In view of the fact that their private paper money system has been used to promote American socialism, how about The People's Republic of the Federal Reserve? They should put their paper on rolls. We will soon use their paper in the toilet for personal hygeine!
Belgian
(4/28/01; 14:20:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 52762)
Interest Rate Circus (Auspec-chart)
Since all currencies are constantly depreciating...what is the meaning of interest rates on these currencies ? Very, very little ! Altough not an economist...I dare to say that IRs, are not economy related anymore, but pure and simple official currency-tools. Global trade is for its major part, "managed", with the currency/IR tool. Capital flows are 100 times more important for profit than the actual (tangible) trade. That's why I keep on repeating the word "speculation". There is so little "logic" left in the fundamentals of economics, that we do not realize, something has gone really wrong :
The pricing of a service is not related to its underlying object(car,chemical,food etc...)anymore. Produced goods were previously compared in value (usefullness) to each other. The huge volume of all kinds of services created, around that same "object" of trade, makes them much less comparable in usefullness. To me, another explanation for the depreciation effect. Analyse for yourself how much different aspects are involved in any kind of trade or service. Try it, with the history of a standard (heyho) bottle of coke(object). From a nickel to a buck in 30 years.
List all the services, taxes, IRs, currencies,commodities...etc, involved in that same piece of standard coke-formula. Difficult...Yes, Sir, but giving a simplier insight in what I'm (hopelessly) trying to communicate.
Intuitively, we are screaming for a return to some standardisation. Knowing very well, that it is impossible.
I'm stupid enough to accept this USTB-30 as kind off "surrogate" standard (?) (stealth) indicator (?) Not that easy manipulative. This USTB-30, must tell me what is going to happen with the pricing of coke(in US and world) + surplus surrounding activity.
What has this (standard) bottle of coke, to do with an ounce of gold ? Compare both tangibles for the last 30 years in all their aspects. Bring in, everything that was involved in the price-increase of coke for these same last 30 years and conclude what happened with gold. Try to explain why IRs plunged from an ATH (1980) to an ATL (1998).
Do you see any relationship (logic) with a constant price increase for coke and a constant IR decline for USTB-30 ?
And is something changing now in this grotesque anomaly ?
I modestly think there is. USTB-30, might be in the process of breaking open, the titanium speculative-manipulative fist. The world and trade has been over-engeneered.
Something has to "BREAK FREE" to give evidence of this, ongoing, artificial situation.!
Importance of USTB-30 : find out how much dollars are parked in this space as percentage of the total volume on dollars (worldwide)!
Perhaps I'm staring at the wrong horse (USTB30) ? And secretly, I'm hoping that Gold will become to HEAVY to carry, after its ligthness of trading. Who knows ?
Have a look at Zelotes's essay at the neighbours (GE).
CRB-chart of tangibles versus services and the over-appreciation of mankind himself. The other charts are nicely emphasising the gold-situation.
With the generalist word "speculation"...I'm trying to analyse the reason why tangibles (commodities and produced goods) are so heavely undervaluated in the relation to the final customer's buying price ? Trying to understand why so many individuals still don't want to re-valuate the scarce and precious "GOLD". While it takes so little effort to do so. We are mis-leaded by "populists" ! The Big Change must come from the new cycle of "individualism".
Ingratefull for the past welfare ? No, but concerned about its durability.
As a sceptic european, I've become a bit more optimistic about the whole EMU as such. There is a recurrent emphasis on "stability". The more significant after the IMF/ECB cross-currents (currency/IR) . Is the Euro something more than just a 12-currency confluence ? Are father-dollar and son-euro, discussing the progressive transfer of the business ? Does "stability", means that economic indicators will be allowed to produce "freely", the necesarry signals ? Or am I naively optimistic, again ? And/or, must a bank-run (Tree i/d Forest), dramatise the Change ?
Some reflexions :
- With VERY MUCH respect for GATA...but, why aren't they mobilising Gold-Philes, to accumulate, physical Gold "NOW" and " IN MASSES " ? They do suggest it but aren't proclaiming it expressively. Is it unlawfull to say what you are doing, without having the intention to advise ?
- Why is so much effort spend on trying to look behind the curtains of Comex/LBMA ? Isn't all this activity, compressed in the word "speculation", and therefore irrelevant for the final outcome ?
- Transactional Gold : the only ones that can (print) dig for gold, are the miners. What if they took a role as Global-Gold-Central-Bank for the individual to counterbalance the official 30.000 tonnes of the undisciplined collectivity ?
auspec
(4/28/01; 14:09:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 52761)
On The Trail
From FOA Messages #'s52494 & 52495
From Trail Guide's posts:
"....the main weapon of the dollar faction is their control of the paper price {gold}."
"Eventually, the US will walk right up to the gold window with intentions of selling, only to fall away as they stair at a mountain of foreign CB dollars."
"Sir, It's all just political games......We will hear of the US getting ready to sell as the end time comes closer."
Comments: Thus we watch COMEX closely for signs of cracking. The US showcases some gold by re-categorizing it as Custodial, clearly a necessary step prior to any potential disposal of metal. Trail Guide says it is not a {s}quid pro quo. In essence, a reassurance to foreign paper players; see we CAN deliver in this market. Defending paper gold. When times really get late and the dollar faction offers gold for SALE the response would be so overwhelming as to be a stunner. Clear out the vaults please. Checkmate. Give me your gold or give up your dollar!
Seems to me it is already quite late as CIA factors and this "foreign country" {the FED} do what they please with OUR national treasury. Sorry, cb2, I wish that 'foreign country' was a little closer to your neighborhood than mine, or better yet a different galaxy. A little local heat is in order, no? We will see what level of outrage can be generated over this Custodial Gold reclassification. The IMF and/or the US Treasury are the only onside {offside} entities with enough gold to back the failing COMEX, according to FOA's division of players in the gold end game scenario. Do you really think for even one second our esteemed representatives would risk/squander our precious yellow? Say what?
In regards to some of the FOMAC meetings {52509} and dialogs: Who is 'President Jordan'? I could only think of Vernon Jordan, wjc's Buddy. Actually not his Buddy, but his buddy. Both likely carnivores, possibly canines. Sorry for the insults, they just come naturally from being lied to most of my adult life.
COMEX itself becomes THE shell game and we watch very closely {ready to scream bloody murder}. What do you give them when they demand the USD sovereignty or your gold? Can't do much rebuilding w/o the gold. What a country this DBRoFR {Democratic-Banana-Republic-of-Federal-Reserve}!
auspec{tacle-in-the-making}
Sierra Madre
(4/28/01; 14:07:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 52760)
"Transactional gold" and some other thoughts...
Hello all!
Since this is Saturday and perhaps few are under any pressure from business, here's my two cents' worth for today.
Transactional gold: Well, there's Gresham's Law standing in the way of transactional gold. This Law states, in practical terms, that you get rid of your junk inventory first.
If I have a stock of fiat and a stock of gold, I - and presumably any intelligent human in that case - will use his fiat for day-to-day transactions, and keep the gold in reserve. Only a dire lack of fiat (or its collapse into worthlessness) and absolute necessity, will force me to use of gold for obtaining the most urgent goods and services.
No amount of persuasion and recourse to rhetoric will change this fact of human life.
What this implies for humanity is that the use of fiat is going to continue for a long time. And as fiat progressively loses its value in trade at accelerating rates, this also means that "investment" must also progressively become infused with an ever greater element of gambling, pure and simple. All economic life becomes ever more shaky and fragile. True, long-term investment disappears. The shrewd, canny and unscrupulous prosper while the wise and prudent stand aside.
As gold is suppressed in value vis-a-vis paper, the potential explosion at some point, becomes greater - I mean not only the fact of explosion, but the magnitude of the explosion.
Under those circumstances, What Investment - I mean a long-term investment, a large capital-intensive investment, can be seriously contemplated by a prudent man?
Even oil and gas industry investment, which certainly has a brilliant future ahead of it (Thank you, Black Blade!) is to be given a second place. Long term, serious investment, as understood in prior eras, cannot be contemplated except in what one considers the prime location. As time goes on, more and more people will begin to evaluate investment in terms of the alternative: physical gold, and the probability of an explosion in its purchasing power. Any other investment pales more and more, by comparison, each passing day.
The longer physical gold takes to come into its own, with regard to price; the longer it takes for contracts to be denominated in gold, and the longer it takes for investors to become convinced that they have the full and unquestioned support of the Law and the Judicial System in the enforcement of gold-denominated contracts, the longer it will take for true investment to take place in the world.
This is why depressions can last so long: as long as a true or more credible valuation of gold is avoided, and the previous malinvestment is kept on life-support, so long is the economy depressed and the energy of human action is repressed: we are all hanging on to our gold!
I notice this in myself: I think of hotel bills and dinners in terms of ounces of gold. Of course, I am not going to forego the simple pleasures of life, because they are expensive in terms of gold. But I do not "invest" except for inconsequential amounts, due to this circumstance: everything is "expensive" in terms of gold! This is the root of depression, as eventually a great number of people adopt the same attitude.
Von Mises remarked that when the phase of liquidation of malinvestment arrives, with painful consequences for so many, the best thing that can be done, is to get it over with as soon as possible, in order that investment and productive activity can resume quickly. However, the political circumstances in the world appear to stand in the way of doing what should be done. So we probably shall go on with fiat, propping up economies all over the world, and bailing out the most influential, for a long time. The maligned gold-hoarders - the "goldbugs" - are doing humanity a service, by preserving the seed-corn for future investment, when the proper climate arrives.
Further thoughts:
M-3 in the US is about $7,500,000,000,000 dollars.
The US gold reserve is about (?) 8,200,000,000 grams (8,200 tonnes, more or less, we are led to believe)
Divide one by the other, you have $914 dollars per gram.
Well, that's an exaggeration because it would imply that ALL of M-3 would be "backed" 100% by gold. But let us suppose only a 40% backing. That would mean, $366 dollars per gram.
That works out to $11,378 dollars an ounce.
What this tells me, is that ALL the central bankers of the world know that there is no solution to the present monetary and financial mess. No solution! The gold held in Central Banks has become utterly meaningless with regard to the mass of outstanding paper.
It is frequently the case, in bankruptcies, that the managers of a bankrupt company seek to sell off the remaining valuable assets to their friends or to others who represent their interests. After all, if no one can be saved with the present assets, Why not use them for personal advantage? Crooked thinking, but it happens.
So gold might be being re-privatized very stealthily, into the hands of those who will emerge as the bankers once again, after the present financial drama has concluded.
Or are these Central Bankers so honest, they wouldn't do that at all, now would they?
Thanks for reading. Enjoy the weekend!
Sierra
Usul
(4/28/01; 13:47:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 52759)
China
China's mode of development of its gold markets is intrigueing... a chain of events was set in motion as former colony Hong Kong became a Special Economic Zone... indeed, it was evident before the "allotted time"... we live in "interesting times"...
ge
(04/28/01; 13:04:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 52758)
Annual Percent Changes In Euro Area M3
http://www.ecb.int/stats/press/md0102.pdf
Dec2000 = 5.1%
Jan2001 = 4.7%
Feb2001 = 4.7%
megatron
(04/28/01; 12:36:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 52757)
Correction
Last 2 posts should read Oct2000, not Dec2000. (Failed Hooked on FONIX);)
megatron
(04/28/01; 12:30:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 52756)
Tannehill
Further, absolutely nothing happened of substance that I'm aware of in Dec. that would have screamed 'Go long the TSE PM index'. Price of gold and silver are flat! It must be insider buying, but which insiders? There are so many layers to this onion. In any case there is a well defined inflection point in Dec 2000. Don't know about the XAU.
megatron
(04/28/01; 12:24:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 52755)
Tannehill
Look at the TSE PM index. This has been going on since DEC 2000. It follows a well defined uptrend, so there must be some 'mass' pushing from underneath. Whether it's Joe Public or large funds or just insiders is hard to say.
I'm betting it's insiders in investment banks connected to this short selling scheme. With that kind of well defined trend on an index of stocks it can't be just a couple of people.
Econoclast
(04/28/01; 12:17:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 52754)
Hear Hear Journeyman!
As I said in my attempt to put together a new monetary system:
"Gold for the people, fiat for the govts and banks" if they must have a play money for their shennanigans.
I didn't specifically address egold, however, let's have transactional gold money for the people who don't want to support the FED.
Tannehill
(04/28/01; 11:06:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 52753)
Canuck @ Merrill Recommending Barrick
Hello Canuck, love them maples...
Two choices
Choice A: it is the old inventory model "FIFO" -- First in, First Out -- I suspect that we will not see a significant move up in gold until Barrick covers its hedges, they have restructured them, when the gold spike came with the Washigton Agreement, why only one or two companies in trouble with their hedge book, someone trying to get their hands on just certain companies? Barrick will cover and move handsomely to the upside.
Or
Choice B: Barrick doesn't cover and the insiders know when gold is going to move and will be ready, so they sell off Barrick to the public before it blows up?
take your choice, of course we don't have to play that game.
Merrill did recommend selling TVX Gold about a month ago, and boy has it gone down, Merrill has been more positive on the South African miners, for the last year or so, but not aggressive on the buy side, just accumulate. From my limited perspective they have a fair track record on their gold calls, not great, just relatively fair.
Let's see we have Merrill buying Lihir, Goldman rumored to be buying stock in the major golds this week, wonder how much Barrick they bought?
Of course the above is not investment advice...
With that said, we all know that it is still much better to hold some physical.
That's all from Tannehill
ET
(04/28/01; 11:06:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 52752)
Elwood
Hey Elwood - thanks for your thoughts. Regarding your premises, I would agree with the first, but I'm unsure whether the second holds up. Under some circumstances, such as today when demand for energy is going through the roof because of the inflated money system, the Arabs have a better bargaining position than say when the world economy heads downward into deflation. You write in part;
"If we can agree to these two premises, then we might come to an understanding of Trail Guide's message.
"If the Arabs can decide what prices their oil (gold or fiat), and they choose fiat, what does this tell us? It tells us
that they value or prefer gold at less than "full value" vs gold at "full value." Remember, as long as oil flows, they
will ever be buyers of gold."
I believe the Arabs can demand whatever they like, but it doesn't mean they can get whatever they like. As it stands today, gold would appear to be undervalued as money, so obtaining gold instead of fiat at today's rates would seem to be a good deal for them, as well as us (footsteps of giants, etc.). The problem, of course, is actually getting the gold. I would submit they would have no trouble obtaining physical gold for their oil if gold were trading freely. It would then represent just another asset that could be used for whatever purpose they have in mind. The fact is, however, that gold is not trading freely, thus if the Arabs prefer gold in payment, they will have to try to obtain it without disrupting the world's fiat economy or demand for their oil will fall dramatically. As I understand it, this is ANOTHER's viewpoint. When he says you don't want oil to bid for gold, he ain't kiddin!
Their solution to this problem, as I understand it, is to create another fiat scheme to replace the dollar scheme. One problem they are trying to overcome is making this transition without disrupting the world's oil demand component. When the world quits bidding for dollars by switching to euros, the US economy will collapse and with it, its demand for oil. Bringing in the euro at this point serves no purpose I can see in insulating the world from this reckoning, other than perhaps as a perceived shelter for banks/governments/corporations/hot-money, etc.
I would disagree with them in the fact that this transition can be accomplished in the way they claim. In my view, it is the very nature of the fiat pyramid, that for the euro to be successful going forward (success defined as supplanting the dollar as the world's reserve currency), the dollar scheme must first collapse and all accounts settled. The account settling is what they are attempting to avoid, but it is unavoidable. The world will have to go through a period of sound money to settle accounts before investment will come back. In the meantime, all governments will attempt to monetize the outstanding debts. Europe will be forced to do the same for political reasons. None of this will be pretty, regardless of how it all plays out.
The problem is the fiat scheme itself, Elwood. No amount of rejiggering the accounts will save the world. It is built on sand, and will collapse eventually. A return to sound money is inevitable, even if, as FOA has noted, it won't last for long. In this month-long discussion, I've attempted to find out just what the phrase "fairly-valued free market gold", actually means. On the surface, it appeared gold would find its true value, but as we've come to find out, that is not the case. It's also not surprising because by actually freeing gold, they would turn loose the monster they are trying to keep caged.
I sure don't know what is going to happen, Elwood. I suspect, however, that we are close to the great reckoning, thus holding gold in your hand is the way to go. I don't think the euro is the bridge to anywhere except more of this statist nonsense, and most likely worse than today's statist nonsense. Hey - I'm just one slave out here looking for that road back to freedom and liberty. It'll happen. It has to. Hang in there, the world is about to get a lot better for our children and their children. Thanks again for your thoughts!
Journeyman
(04/28/01; 11:06:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 52751)
THANKS, YGM!
Regards,
Journeyman
YGM
(04/28/01; 10:37:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 52750)
Journeyman.......
You're a do-er.....Swing the HAMMER...
So if it requires punching square pegs thru round holes, move aside, I'm swinging ...JM
Journeyman
(04/28/01; 10:33:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 52749)
Don't take it from me - - - BUT fiat is "impractical," "unconstitutional," "immoral" and "dishonest." @Randy, ALL
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=22597
Hi Sir Randy!
Well, as I suggested in my last post, in any contest between fiat and gold, it's fiat that is found wanting, is impractical, and in fact, a square peg in a round hole. Here's someone that seems to agree with me, as reported in an article in World Net Daily, link originally posted by Leigh, I believe.
"A congressional source told WND, 'There is no doubt in my mind that the current monetary system is not only impractical in an economic sense, as well as being unconstitutional, it is immoral and dishonest from a biblical viewpoint.'"
-'66 Greenspan article supports gold standard
Fed chairman still backs his words from newsletter,
source says, By Jon Dougherty
© 2001 WorldNetDaily.com
Regards,
Journeyman
lamprey_65
(04/28/01; 10:31:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 52748)
Gold Weekly
http://www.bookmarkusa.com/goldweekly.jpg
I'm convinced...we have a breakout!
Journeyman
(04/28/01; 10:30:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 52747)
Square pegs, round holes --- and sledge hammers: MAJOR RANT included. @Sir Randy, Trail Guide, Beesting, ET, Elwood, ALL
Sir Randy,
You wrote:
"And while you are busying yourselves pounding square pegs into
round holes, please give thought to this question: in your minds,
"...why is it apparently not satisfying enough to simply have and
exercise the right to convert your fiat earnings into physical
gold wealth at whatever price the market shall dictate is
appropriate for your brand of national currency?
+
I, for one, am satisfied to maintain a checking account large
enough to cover anticipated monthly expenses, while rolling
excess sources of variable fiat income into tangible wealth,
notably gold. This is like putting a round peg into the round
hole of an existing system, with no need to force my "quirky"
will, habits, or preferences upon my majority of neighbors who
collectively dictate the terms of society."
It used to be the custom to bleed the patient - - - and the given
wisdom was that the world was flat. Both notions were wrong-
headeaded - - - and also incorrect. Just how far will you "go
along to get along?"
And keep in mind, our "quirky ideas" are the ones the whole
population shared from around 1800 up thru at least 1933 and
probably 1972. It is the current fiat notions that are the
upstart and quirky notions. Keynes said it well:
"The composition of this book has been for the author a
long struggle of escape, and so must the reading of it
be for most readers if the author's assault upon them
is to be successful,--a struggle of escape from
habitual modes of thought and expression. The ideas
which are here expressed so laboriously are extremely
simple and should be obvious. The difficulty lies not
in the new ideas, but in escaping from the old ones,
which ramify, for those brought up as most of us have
been, into every corner of our minds. -J.M. Keynes,
December 13, 1935 from the introduction to his _THE
GENERAL THEORY of EMPLOYMENT, INTEREST, AND MONEY_
This was Keynes attempting to justify the banking-government
axis' escape from the discipline of gold in 1935 by pounding his
round peg thru the current carefully tooled and refined square
hole of the classical gold standard. Keynes was, in effect,
attempting to tell people the world was once again flat. He was
the intellectual hit-man justifying the banker-government cliques
forcing _his_ quirky - - - and dishonest - - - ideas on all _his_
neighbors. That's the proximate source of the thoroughly
discredited Keynsian dregs that none-the-less still serve as the
basis of economic orthodoxy today.
That's why any objective read of the current "economic system"
over the last 70 years or so reads like the blueprints for a
poorly designed Rube Goldberg knock-off. As Rothbard used to say
in the eighties, referring to stagflation, "The Keynsians
promised us they would put an end to booms and busts; now they've
given us a boom and a bust at the same time. When you point this
out to them, they are speechless. According to their theories,
this simply isn't possible." There are no out-of-the-closet
up-front Keynsians anymore. Except, apparently, here.
<<!! - - - WARNING: MAJOR RANT - - - !!>>
What's truly amazing to me is that these essentially discredited
Keynsian notions seem to take such solid root at one of the
world's premiere hard money sites. "Gold is wealth" - - - but
heaven forbid we should actually use it to transact business!!
Sorry, but I simply don't get it. It could be I'm just
antidiluvian, but I see few convincing arguments against a return
to transactional gold. The only reason that seemed to hold any
water at all amounted to, "Well, we've walked into this deep
doodoo and it seems to be getting deeper with each step - - - but
we can't turn around and go back because, well, the leaders (all
strangely equipped with waders) who got us here keep waving us
onwards from the shore. And anyway, we might have to go _back_
thru all that deep doodoo."
And it's not terribly convincing to say in effect, "No sense in
going to transactional gold, because it'll always get corrupted."
That makes as much sense as saying "No sense in building this
house because eventually it will fall into ruin." Possibly true
and unfortunate, but hardly a good reason to live in a cave.
Previously to the growth of "electronic gold," while the
theoretical base for returning to gold was as strong and intact
as ever, it looked like there was no _practical_ path since no
banking-government coalition in it's right mind would give us
one. It looks like "electronic gold" has changed things. But
even without an immediate path back to transactional gold, I
simply don't see how you can credibly promote gold just as
"wealth" in a vacuum. I could as easily declare dead fish to be
wealth, and the dead fish - - - or gold, to paraphrase Dirty
Harry, would be "wealth in my own mind."
Gold simply MUST trade if it's to be other than a kettle of dead
fish to put on the mantle and admire. It MUST trade in order to
be "wealth" in other minds. A price for gold WILL be set,
whether or not we like it. Do we like the way it's done right
now? Because RIGHT NOW there are NO currencies in the world tied
to gold - - - unless you drink a fifth of Scotch, squint, and
bloviate that the Euro is tied to gold. Is the price of gold
none the less being manipulated RIGHT NOW?
I repeat: RIGHT NOW there are NO currencies in the world tied to
gold!! SO _theoretically_ we HAVE the "free gold" circumstances
Sir Randy, Aristotle and Trail Guide claim they want RIGHT NOW.
And it's been pretty much that way for thirty years. Do we
_really_ have "free gold" then? Why not? Why is the price
manipulated by the ESF, etc.? For fun? As an intellectual pass-
time?
It's farily clear it's to protect "their" fiats, cause as someone
posted here (Trail Guide? -- please excuse the BIG paraphrase)
"What's a few billion in gold when you can print trillions if you
can keep the price of gold low?" It's farily clear that the
reason gold isn't free is because as long as it isn't competing
directly with the fiats, the price is controllable. This is true
since when gold is non-transactional, it is forgoeing it's main
traditional use as a medium of exchange, which use would
drastically increase demand for gold -- and thus it's price.
And transactional gold would also enhance gold's use as savings
since people would learn they didn't need to put it in the
banker-gambler's hands just to stay even. No yearly "inflation,"
you know.
What's a 2% _target_ inflation rate for the euro tell you?
That's right, the issuers of the euro tell you outright they
_plan_ to manage their currency in such a way as to steal 2% per
year from you thru inflation. Pretty blatant don't you think?
And of course they're currently (and typically) over-shooting
their stealing plans by almost 50%. And the currency hasn't even
hit the streets yet!!
Thru clique manipulations out from Jeckyl Island, yesterday's
orthodoxy was transformed into today's quirky idea. And vice
versa. Sir Randy, it was _not_ the "majority of _your_ neighbors
who collectively dictated _these_ terms of society" - - - unless
your neighbors were at that Jeckyl Island confab.
No reason then we can't go full circle back to what the rank-and-
file chose originally, back to honest money. Now is there?
And as far as why we gold advocates and bugs shouldn't just be
comfortable in our advantaged position, merely salting away our
gold while our neighbors save (maybe) fiat, it's because most of
us bear good will toward men. My mother was a "notcher." She
retired just before the big '80s inflation, and lost more than
thirty percent of her retirement spending power in just a couple
of years. She was victimized, thru no fault of her's, by the
fiat mongers, may they rot in . . . And she got off easy. Many
notchers became bag ladies and munched dog food. Think of the
doubling of the poor (as per World Bank projections) in Asia as a
result of the contagion.
And there's the national debt, which would be drastically
curtailed by transactional gold, passed on to our kids and yet
unborn grand kids. (No, even by their squewed figures they're
NOT paying it off -- most of it was passed along to later
generations thru so-called "Social Security.")
So if it requires punching square pegs thru round holes, move
aside, I'm swinging a sledge.
Common, gals and guys! It's time to hop on the gold bandwagon
instead of running along beside it!
Regards,
Journeyman
YGM
(4/28/01; 10:17:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 52746)
TED BUTLER.....
Belongs in the previous bunch...(Post)
as he's another do-er w/ his reputation and beliefs on the line.......YGM.
YGM
(4/28/01; 10:10:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 52745)
Murphy/Powell/Howe/Turk
Talk/Talk/Talk.......
We can have all the intellectual discussions in the world about high finances and Gold but these 'ARE' the guys doing something about it......There's talkers and doers in the world...Bill M is the do-er....YGM
'GO GATA' "FOR A PIECE OF HISTORY"
YGM
(4/28/01; 10:02:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 52744)
Latest Midas Report.....
Bill you're the 'Man' of the Yr/Hr.....
April 28 - Gold $263.80 down 30 cents - Silver $4.35 down 2 cents
"Durban Deep doo-doo," Michael Martin
or
The Gold Cartel Is Handing You The Investment Of A Lifetime
In a message dated 04/27/2001 6:55:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time, dailyreckoning@agora-inc.com writes:
*** Says veteran gold stockbroker, Michael Martin of R. F. Lafferty, "It wouldn't surprise me to see gold jump out of here, up $15 to $20 in a single day." Maybe GATA's on to something after all. The Business Wire reported "The Gold Antitrust Action Committee (GATA) will reveal proof of the suppression of the gold price by the U.S. and German governments and bullion banks at the GATA African gold summit on May 10 2001, in Durban, South Africa." If GATA turned out to be correct, the conspiring governments may find themselves in Durban Deep doo-doo.
Gold roared yesterday, up $3 when The Gold Cartel said, oh no, not today you don't. As ALWAYS on breakouts or when there is any kind of gold share excitement, The Gold Cartel trashed gold in New York. The technical and fundamental set up was perfect for a gold price bust out to the upside. In early action, it was a clear breakout above all short term technical resistance, while the spot lease rate shot up to 4 %.
http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/GD/61
Excitement and tension was in the air.
However, that is not to be tolerated. Gold is NEVER to be allowed to have two strong back to back days. That is one of the major rules of the anti-trust law violators.
That is when The Gold Cartel always does their thing and strikes and they did so again very quickly after the New York open. GATA has pointed this out for literally years now, yet the brain dead gold industry executives still say nothing and do less. Contempt is too lenient an adjective of my feelings for the lot of them "as a group." There are the wonderful exceptions, of course.
Mark Wellesley-Wood, chairman of Durban Deep is one of the rare few that gets it. I find it so ironic that Michael Martin used Durban Deep in his comment. Thus far, Durban Deep is the only major gold producer who has coffed up any money as a sponsor to help GATA with our GATA African Gold Summit in Durban.
That should be duly noted by gold share investors around the world. When this scandal breaks and the gold price soars, Durban Deep is going to gain a public relations windfall that is going to be a bonanza for their share price and shareholders. The fact that they have incredible gold reserves that will benefit from much higher gold prices won't hurt either.
It is black and white. The aftermath commotion of the summit has a chance to break the gold fraud wide open. If it does, the GATA African Gold Summit will be historic. Durban Deep will be known as the lone sponsor. Let us hope we hear from some of the other senior gold producers next week. I ask you, what could be more important than this get together? I guess they prefer going to the Goldman Sachs affair in Palm Beach, Florida a couple of weeks later to be wined and dined, play some golf and learn why Goldman Sachs is downgrading them.
When the truth comes out, many gold company managements are going to come under severe scrutiny for not bothering to even make any kind of effort to understand what was ruining their own industry when it was put right in front of their nose. Many will be vilified by shareholders that sold out at the bottom. Those shareholders will have a right to pursue the inept and negligent ones.
This Midas will be down and dirty. I have much to do for the summit and have little time at the moment. There are more important things to attend to right now for ALL of us.
The news today was ALL GOLD BULLISH - therefore, the price was taken down by the cabal, as they have been doing for years. Remember the most important axiom of all when it comes to the cabal and the press: price action makes market commentary.
This was bullish for gold demand as it will effect other economies around the world:
Washington, April 27 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. economy grew at a faster-than-expected 2 percent annual rate in the first quarter, as a rise in consumer spending outweighed drops in business investment and inventories.
This part of that report was also very bullish for gold:
"Inflation also accelerated. The personal consumption expenditures price index, a measure of inflation tied to consumer spending and closely watched by the Fed, rose at a 3.3 percent annual rate, after a 1.9 percent gain in the fourth quarter."
The energy crisis outlook worsened, which is also gold bullish:
Gasoline Futures Rise to Record as Summer Supplies Seen Tight
New York, April 27 (Bloomberg) -- Gasoline futures rose to a record, surpassing prices reached during the Persian Gulf War, on expectations that U.S. supplies will stay below year-ago levels as demand picks up with the warm-weather driving season.
Production of cleaner-burning reformulated gasoline, used in the nation's biggest cities, ran 3.3 percent behind year-earlier levels over the past month, industry figures show. Pump prices in cities that use the fuel, including Chicago and San Francisco, have climbed above $2 a gallon and may rise more, analysts said.
``We have a looming problem in front of us with reformulated gasoline, and it is a problem that will not be fixed right away,'' said Peter Beutel, president of Cameron Hanover Inc., an oil consulting firm in New Canaan, Connecticut.
-END-
http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/UG/61
The bond action (new lows off their base top) is telling us that the big money guys know that Greenspan's remedy to SAVE the economy and stock market is another bailout. They are not buying it and are giving their verdict on its ramifications:
http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/TR/61
This is VERY gold bullish de-facto commentary by the collective wisdom of bond traders round the world!
From another Café member:
Just to say my boss has just passed me the May issue of Wilmott, a new financial glossy publication. Perhaps you already know about it but there is a large 6 page article on Ashanti with numerous referrals to GATA and your evidence. The article is written by Lenny Jordan and can be found at www.Wilmott.com.
Keep up the good work
-END-
We are REALLY making headway. GATA issues are now brought up in the launch publication of this $450 per year, high brow publication. Notice of this was brought to my attention by an executive of one of the world's most respected financial institutions.
Not only have we affected the way Bill Bonner (Agora) looks at GATA's claims, we are getting contributions from some of GATA's most severest critics. This is one of my favorites that just came in:
"I going to make this simple and quick because I'm in a hurry. The GATA story I wasn't buying, in fact I believe in a commentary to Chris Powell, I called you an "asshole."
Well, after reviewing all of the evidence put forth, I want to apologize for my commentary in the past, as well as, adding a donation to the future. If you'll e-mail me your mailing address, I'll forward my first tax deduction contribution to you as soon as possible.
As far as today's (4/26) action, my group, states firmly that it was a European central bank calling in a gold loan.
Action should increase, but I would look for the euro to come to power first...
Good luck in Durban,
S
-END-
A European bank calling in a gold loan is consistent with the information that Midas has been feeding you about what is to come. This is good.
Effort like this is why we are winning the WAR:
Hi Bill
Wanted to let you know that I've forwarded ANOTHER press release see: below to over 5400 news media outlets. GATA has been identified as the sender. In addition I'm planning to get the word out as time permits through mass
e-mailing.
Thanks for everything you're doing on and may God bless all of you
JT
-END-
More from the Fed minutes via Dave Walker:
April 28, 1995
Greenspan:
We had the Russians in who gave a somewhat upbeat view of
where they were. We had technical discussions on GATT and potential sales of gold by the IMF for the purpose of using the interest on the sale proceeds to finance various programs in the IMF. But in general, it was a relatively shorter meeting than usual and far less difficult than I think any of us from the U.S. delegation was expecting when we went in. That's all I have to report. Does anybody have any questions?
MR. MOSKOW. Mr. Chairman, just by coincidence is visiting Chicago now and will be in our Bank this afternoon: I'll
be meeting with him later. I was just wondering if he had any views that would be helpful for us to be aware of.
CHAIRMAN GREENSPAN. Remember that the sale of gold for
purposes of financing certain IMF programs
-END-
This is very interesting as it shows how long The Gold Cartel was eyeing IMF gold sales to continue their scheme.
Boy, did they miscalculate that one!
No gold pep talk needed. THIS IS IT. Days, weeks, months. An investment opportunity of a lifetime is at hand. Whether it be gold coins or gold shares, your day is here to make the killing. Even the most sophisticated of investment managers have no clue about what you now know regarding what is coming and why. YOU can beat them all to the investment punch.
The continued Gold Cartel activity is giving Café members time to evaluate the situation and step up to the gold plate. It is very rare indeed when one is presented the rationale about an opportunity to make so much money, accompanied by so little downside risk.
By the time the general investing public knows what you know, the share prices will have already gone bonkers; the price of bullion will be sharply higher.
I urge you all to review recent past Midas commentaries so that you can appreciate that the information that all of my sources have sent me is coming into play. It all hangs together. Our day is right around the corner! The Gold Cartel is in deep doo indeed.
Spread the word.
MIDAS
Canuck
(4/28/01; 09:42:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 52743)
@ Econoclast
Although I am not an American citizen, I 'eagerly await' as well.
Econoclast
(4/28/01; 09:32:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 52742)
US Gold Reserves
Dear Mr. Secretary:
In September of 2000, the designation of almost 1700 tons of American gold held at the US mint facility in West Point, N.Y. was changed from "Gold Bullion Reserve" to "Custodial Gold". There are many stories and rumors concerning what this change means. As a concerned American Citizen, I am appealing to you directly for the answer to the following questions concerning this change in designation:
1) Why was the status of this portion of the US gold reserves changed?
2) What does the change in designation mean in regards to the ownership of the named gold?
3) If the status change does reflect any change in ownership, title, or interest of said gold, who is now the beneficiary, owner, or titleholder of the gold in question?
4) Under what authority or law was this change in the United States public gold reserves authorized and enacted?
The change in status of over 20% of the US gold reserves has me deeply concerned and I thank you in advance for the answers to the above questions, so that hopefully, this citizen's concerns may be shown to be unfounded and laid to rest. I will be eagerly awaiting your response.
auspec
(4/28/01; 08:40:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 52741)
Trying Link Again
http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/TR/61
.
auspec
(4/28/01; 08:34:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 52740)
@ Belgian
http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chartTR/61
Did you see the 4-28 Midas commentary in regards to bonds?
" The bond action {new lows off their base top} is telling us that the big money guys know that Greenspan's remedy to SAVE the economy and stock market is another bailout. They are not buying it and are giving their verdict on its ramifications."
I may just have to participate in this bailout when we see a 30 year mortgage with 5% interest rates. Hmmmmm.........wonder what I could buy with the proceeds???
CoBra(too)
(4/28/01; 08:25:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 52739)
DRoFR - formerly USofA
Looking back to some of my past endeavours as financing and 'promoting' some junior golds with exceptional potential and management - just to name my l.t. association with Bob Needham of Oz, who accomplished the largest international financing for both Kidston Mines and Placer Pacific, based on Porgera, PNG, both he had the foresight to develop on novel technology and financing) - I came across Rothschild N.Y and met with a totally uninterested Robert Guy - now successor successor of Michael Price at RB, London.
Would I'd known, what I know today -and more to the point, what he'd known 4-5 years back - I can appreciate his "lack of enthusiasm" or better his total boredom by suffering through a great though longish presentation.
... And as I had more of these meetings with some of what we today call BB's - in hindsight it was not only time, money and efforts wasted. My first real hint that the POG is manipulated came from a guy, who used to run the gold mining side at HSBC in London, who clearly stated: " Bob, since I'm aware of your reputation as a company builder, take my advice it's a no go for several years!".
Well, as I've been the junior this statement got me thinking: "What do those guys know?" - Well, I guess, we've found out the hard way. Far from being happy about the ready conclusion, we've stubbornly decided to go on following our goals and sunk more money - shareholders' and lastly our own, as we felt committed and were and funnily still are committed, even as thoughts of collusion, manipulation and cabal dawned upon our efforts.
Today we know, we didn't have a chance, though we're still around - while others bragged to play the fad of the day and ended up losing more value in the internuts than we'll ever be able to expend on the mining side.
Alas, this is only meant as introduction to my real thoughts of the state of the international monetary affairs. Even if (my?)reality won't take up much more bandwith.
And as it is, the US and its FRN (only because it's the leader of the gang, otherwise it is simply true for all, IMHO) are at the base of this observation, where democracy is debased by the fear of mediocre clerks meddling with the real issues - of the elite, or is it the new aristocracy of monetary hype - feeling the pressure to prolong their own meddling. A meddling justified by hyprocisy. A meddling in the long run justified by any means of mendacity, manipulation, abuse of power and corrupting the democratic system its constitution, liberty, morals and currency for its own good.
That's probably not novel. Novel is the ways to achieve this ultimate "novel" game of deceit 'for your own good'. Debase everything, which was held in esteem as essential and workable merits towards the functioning of the social fabric and deploy greed, amorality and slander instead and let the world know, your currency is the last refuge to the "wealth" of a safe haven.
Wellcome to the Democratic Republic of the Federal Reserve and its associated aristocrats, or is it oligarchs, who may feel the need to 'accept responsibility' for the republic - before systemic meltsowns hit those clowns.
The only liberty left to you and me - own gold for your liberty - and have a great weekend to think it through - cb2
Trail Guide
(4/28/01; 07:59:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 52738)
China Gold!
http://www.usagold.com/DailyQuotes.html
From the USAGOLD News Feed (see link above):
Parts of article -----
China to Reform Gold Management System
------China is going to abolish its planned management system for the unified purchase and distribution of gold and to set up a gold market in its stead, said Dai Xianglong, governor of People's Bank of China.------------
----------For a long time, China has instituted the planned management system featuring "unified management, purchase and distribution"---------------- the problem featuring the lack of pressure and vigor for gold production and operation brought about by planned management has become increasingly conspicuous and has, to some degree, hindered the further development of the industry in gold production, processing and sales. It is therefore imperative to reform this system. ----------
--------Dai said that the basic ideas in reforming the system are: to set up a !!!!! gold market !!!!! to replace the aforesaid planned management system-----------
--------The main contents include: first, to cancel planned management of gold. set up a gold swap market in Shanghai ---------in the form of a membership system ----------
(MY NOTE: Not to be confused with a paper ownership swap in the context of our recent discussions)
---- Second, to abolish the licensing management system for the business such as retail, wholesale, processing and management. ------ Third, to relax control on !!!gold imports !!! in light of the process of !!!!! foreign exchange system reform!!!!. ----
(My Note: Don't you just wonder what they mean by that? Almost makes one think that someone,,, somewhere,,,, has decided to use gold in a different context. Almost like using it as a wealth reserve asset that's market to the market every three months. Strange, though, there is no
mention of a "redundant" (thanks Randy (smile)) metal helds as this asset???)
-----Currently, the People's Bank of China is actively carrying out various items of preparatory work in line with the general arrangements for the reform of the gold management system---------
----- it will start up the gold quotation system as quickly as possible, formally carry out the purchase and distribution of gold; it will intensify efforts to adjust the current gold management policy, to ensure that the gold retail business license system is abolished in the first half of this year. ----------
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200104/28/eng20010428_68866.html
Ok,,,,, looks like they are moving towards the "big Bang" coming in the second half. Come to think of it, the EMU is making plans to circulate currency at the end of the 2nd half??? It's time for me to talk to a few friends. later
TrailGuide
Canuck
(4/28/01; 07:01:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 52737)
James Turk is at it again!!
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_01/turk042301pv.html
"The ESF....has covered things like gold swaps....."
"Are you sure?"
"I am sure."
"Everyone is satisfied that a legal issue is not involved....."
------------------------------------------------
-End-
All Merrill (in this am's paper) is RECOMMENDING Barrick.
(Hey, wrong company but what the hell!!!!)
Have a golden week-end, gold is ready to rock-and-roll!!!!!
Canuck.
SteveH
(4/28/01; 04:51:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 52736)
Sharefin at it again
http://www.prudentbear.com/boards/user/non-frames/message.asp?forumid=4&messageid=43694&threadid=43694
Way to find these links.
The underside of the bubble.
Black Blade
(4/28/01; 03:19:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 52735)
Hubbert Center Newsletter
http://hubbert.mines.edu./news/Campbell_01-2.pdf
Two good articles in the Hubbert Center newsletter - Peak Oil: A Turning For Mankind and ANWR A National Asset. Depleting oil and missed opportunities.
Black Blade
(4/28/01; 03:04:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 52734)
US looks to Canada as savior on energy
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/117/nation/US_looks_to_Canada_as_savior_on_energy+.shtml
Snippit:
MONTREAL - Even as the United States wrangles over a widely opposed scheme to drill for oil and gas in Alaska's Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, the energy-hungry eyes of America are turning toward Canada. Thanks to advanced new recovery techniques making it possible to extract oil economically from Alberta's spectacularly rich ''tar sands'' - together with the prospect of a natural gas bonanza in the Northwest Territories plus the deep-sea oil and gas fields just coming into production off Newfoundland and Nova Scotia - Canada is looking like America's great northern hope for averting an energy crisis in the years ahead.
Black Blade: Looking to Canada to serve the US as its own little Energy Farm? A lot of wishful thinking as the Canadian government opposes many US projects based on "Environmental Concerns." It also takes several years to explore, and produce these hydrocarbons, not to mention the infrastructure for delivery. We live in "interesting times."
Black Blade
(4/28/01; 02:46:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 52733)
Crude Follows Bullish Gasoline
http://www.aapg.org/indexaapg.html
Snippit:
There are signals that OPEC sees the current rally on the crude markets as a flash in the pan, which implies a reluctance to raise output despite spiraling prices. But the danger in this policy is the cartel will focus too much on demand, as opposed to price, could see the supply dwindle dangerously.
Black Blade: Looks like no production increase at the May OPEC meeting. The real problem for oil and gas is refining capacity for multiple grades of reformulated gasoline, not necessarily oil supply. The biggest danger is natural gas production for electricity. Most of the financial media and analysts have completely missed the point as they talk of a better economy in the second half of the year. Todays cheap gold looks to shine bright in the coming months.
Black Blade
(4/28/01; 02:36:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 52732)
Poll: Energy top economic issue
http://www.msnbc.com/news/565073.asp?cp1=1
Snippit:
AMERICANS ARE PESSIMISTIC about the economy in general, the survey indicates, with more than half believing the country will have been in a recession by year's end. The poll suggests that many of them blame energy prices, which more than a third, 38 percent, identified as the nation's top economic concern. Unemployment was next, far behind at 13 percent.
Black Blade: Interesting read.
Lafisrap
(4/28/01; 01:58:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 52731)
G7 meeting this weekend, whistling past the graveyard
http://news.ft.com/ft/gx.cgi/ftc?pagename=View&c=Article&cid=FT3UHFE22MC&live=true
excerpts from the link:
***
Some of these knockabout rows between international players can be mildly amusing for spectators, and further financial fisticuffs could take place at this weekend's Group of Seven finance ministers' meeting in Washington. The trouble is, nobody wants to forecast a serious slowdown, let alone a recession. If politicians or central bankers admit they expect trouble, they will be blamed for it and expected to do something to prevent it. Denial is a safer option, and when the crisis breaks it can be blamed on some exogenous factor or institution, from the oil price to the European Central Bank.
.
.
.
The conflicts between the Europeans and the Americans are becoming more obvious. The ECB is taking its anti-inflation objectives seriously. At 2.6 per cent across the euro-zone (including 2.8 per cent in Germany) inflation is well over the 2 per cent target. Moreover, stuffy European bankers feel adjustments to interest rates should be gradual. In contrast, the US Federal Reserve appears to be close to panic, and the decline of 2 percentage points in its short-term rate this year in four instalments (two unscheduled) is the sharpest adjustment since 1991.
***
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