USAGOLD Gold Discussion Forum Archive

1-800-869-5115
We welcome your inquiry.

USAGOLD Menu BAR

Welcome to the USAGOLD Gold Discussion Archives. The archives of this gold discussion forum are a treasure trove of information to educate investors about protecting their wealth through portfolio diversification with private gold ownership. The discussion forum also covers the wider issues of the past, present, and future role of gold in international monetary policy and the dynamics of the modern gold markets...

(Discussion Forum Hall of Fame)

(The Gold Trail)

("Thoughts!" by ANOTHER)

The opinions posted by all guests are expressly their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the management or staff of USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals. The hosting of the public discussion shall therefore not be construed as an endorsement by USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals of any of the opinions posted here.

FORUM ARCHIVES

Select date of the archive you wish to view

Month Day Year
Archives date back to September 22, 1998

WELCOME TO THE ARCHIVES!

(View Today's Discussion) (View Previous Day's Discussion) (View Next Day's Discussion)

ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 6/27/2002
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

(Yesterday's Discussion.)

Black Blade (06/27/02; 23:48:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 79365)
California power crisis over, but problems linger
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002/06/26/california-power-usat.htm

Snippit:

SAN FRANCISCO � The good news is Californians appear safe from power blackouts this summer. The bad news is the state's energy markets remain unstable amid a flurry of investigations into the causes of last year's crisis.

More than a year after the lights went out six times in the nation's most populous state, a major utility filed for bankruptcy, and wholesale electricity prices skyrocketed, officials are optimistic that this summer will be trouble-free.

Energy conservation, a key element that helped prevent further blackouts last year, is waning. Pledges to build California power plants to keep up with future demand and retiring older plants have fallen off as abundant supplies and tight credit discouraged new investment.

Some experts outline a "perfect storm" scenario in which everything that could go wrong did in the winter of 2000-2001. Two drought years in the Pacific Northwest lowered hydroelectric supplies, a cheap and reliable part of California's energy mix. That meant more reliance on natural gas to fire power plants at a time when gas prices spiked as much as 50%.

Two features of California's deregulation law made a bad situation worse: Utilities were forced to sell their power plants but forbidden from entering into long-term contracts to buy power. As a result, they were forced onto the spot market at vastly higher prices.

Public Utilities Commission president Loretta Lynch says residential electric rates are up an average 40%, but the utilities are close to credit-worthiness again and ready to return to the power-buying business. However, there's worry that with adequate supplies, many new power plant proposals are being withdrawn, setting up another boom-bust cycle in a few years.

Black Blade: There were two major problems involved with the California crisis. 1) there was no deregulation � only reregulation that prohibited the utilities from locking in forward contracts for natural gas and electricity supply; and 2) California still has the problem because they refuse to build adequate power generating facilities, upgrade the transmission grid, and they continue to hold up new natural gas pipelines and add more tariffs � a recipe for higher prices and ultimately more disaster. Nothing much has changed.

YGM (06/27/02; 23:41:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 79364)
Nation of One...
"It's going to get very ugly." I agree that it is, and I believe that it should.
I also agree..In fact I like Pizz wish to hell it would get over and done with! Whatever we face , I want it now while I'm still able to fend for my 12 & 19 yr old kids, not when I'm 73 and less able....The changes beyond that of a financial storm are very scary and very real in the hopefully near future....Decadence, Corruption, and seemingly enslavement by our elected Governments has become the acceptable norm by the masses it seems....the human race lulled to sleep and only a few are stirring and getting aroused from slumber....Eack week and month that goes by seems more crazed than the last...."Mad Human Disease" as catchable as the Plague....YGM.

a nation of one (06/27/02; 23:19:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 79363)
thin skinnedness
I am pretty thin skinned myself, though I can sometimes dish it out pretty good. I just need to thicken up a little. A couple of mornings ago, when I had to face something I had done, I could hardly look myself in the mirror, which, thank goodness, was not too hard, since there is only one in the whole house and it's upstairs. (Well, there is one in the truck but I don't see myself in that one much.)

a nation of one (06/27/02; 23:14:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 79362)
Black Blade msg 79360
You said: "It's going to get very ugly." I agree that it is, and I believe that it should. James Grant, Adam Smith and three other financial talkers were on PBS this evening, and the interviewer Paul Salmon at one point asked them if they thought the U.S. stock market was an overvalued bear market. They all said yes. The woman said that nobody ever sees that, but she also agreed that it is. I think it is uncommon, when a lot of very notoriously careful speakers all come out from under the bed at the same time and tell the truth like that.

YGM (06/27/02; 23:08:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 79361)
A Nation of One...
Just saw your question to me....
No I "DO NOT" trust my Government or any other Gov....

I haven't backpeddled yet to the post you're referring to but that shows if I can't remember I've either got Old-Timers disease or talk too much (or both :>} (hope I wasn't bein thin skinned again in that 79137)...But I'll always be glad to discuss with you...That's what we're supposed to do here right? Besides kids asleep now :>}

Black Blade (06/27/02; 23:01:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 79360)
Losing Faith In The US Miracle
http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1024578275394&p=1024578255278

Snippit:

Overseas investors were happy to fund the US's substantial current account deficit because they wanted to have a stake in the great US boom. But they must now feel rather as emerging market investors did in the mid-1990s - that they were suckers in a game rigged in favour of insiders.

In Asia, the blame fell on cronyism and a banking system that allowed overinvestment in unprofitable projects; in the US, the blame is falling on corporate executives, who have taken excessive risks and distorted accounts in pursuit of lucrative share options.

The disillusionment with the US has spread to the dollar, which on Wednesday slipped to within an ace of parity with the euro. It has also revived the fortunes of gold, which moved back above $320 an ounce on the same day. During the 1990s, gold seemed to have been supplanted by the dollar as the safe asset of choice - but now investors are rediscovering the virtues of the yellow metal.

Black Blade: David Tice of the Prudent Bear Fund was interviewed on CNBC today and he essentially said the same thing. Foreign investors have been fleeing US based investments even before the recent slide in the dollar. There is a severe crisis in confidence and for good reason. There are corporate scandals breaking every day, the US dollar is overvalued, the US markets are grossly overvalued (even today), the current account deficit grows at a furious pace (also the revised GDP numbers are released on July 31 � watch out for this one!), consumer confidence is falling, consumer and corporate debt is at record levels, etc. The list goes on and on. Only a foreign fool would remain in the US markets under these conditions. It's going to get very ugly.

YGM (06/27/02; 22:57:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 79359)
My Goodness...
A Round of "Thanks" is in order.....
Drop in here to review the days events and some of you folks get me all sentimental like when I ran away from home as a kid....Well I'd like to sincerely thank each of you who voiced concern over YGM takin a hike over the hill and a few others who emailed.... But as I said I'm tired and probably more than a little repetitious (as well as thin skinned lately) so I'll back off a bit, maybe get some fresh info or attitude :>} (a smile for Sir Belgian) Being out of work here is testing my patience and giving me too much free time to read and post also....Now my most valuable little bit o Gold (she's 12) is out of school today and it's Dad lets halter break my Filly and go fishin and can I help paint the barn and when can we go camping, and, and, and, AND why do you have to always be at the computer Dad? So it's me and Nikki-Lynn for the next two months....I'll be around as always cause I like the Castle and the company! A kids summer memories are more precious than my self interests in Gold Wars for awhile....Thanks for making me feel that I'm not yet ready for putting out to pasture tho....Back soon...YGM

"GO GOLD & GO GATA" or I'll sic Gandy's "CrockaGators" on ya!!

Rockgrabber (06/27/02; 22:56:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 79358)
Capitulation= Word you will get sick of
Have you heard the word capitulation (a period of blind selling that puts a firm bottom on stocks and marks the new bull phrase) a few too many times of late? That word is going to get old real fast, if it has not already. That will be a overused word in times ahead. I am ready for it to be used nearly daily.

a nation of one (06/27/02; 22:52:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 79357)
Just the barest mention of Ducks (The feathered kind)
To Golden Bear in message 79124. I am not unaware of what you describe. I just think it is incomplete.

To YGM in message 79137. Your question: "...do you think they'd have waited til the dollar was this low to stage a sell off?" Answer: Yes. That is exactly what they would do. It is easier to drive something down when it is already going down. The answer to this question is addressed in my posts. If you know specifically why they wouldn't, if you would state that reasoning, then we could explore this particular aspect of the issue. My question: You trust our government? (But of course now you're gone.)

To Topaz in message 79139: Thanks for the advice. But it seems a bit risky for my taste right now. (I am a fully grown adult male.)

To Hipplebeck in message 79155. I don't know every detail of how the dollar would be supported. But IMNVHO there are many means that could contribute to the effect. It wouldn't have to be done using merely one single means. It could be a combination of means. Anything that would keep money out of public circulation could delay or prevent inflationary consequences. I think this is one reason the government percieves an interest in keeping stocks from falling, or, if they fall, percieves an interest in having the proceeds go into the 'right' hands (i.e., those who will accumulate it and hold it.) Coins can be made to go out of circulation by making them relatively more collectible, for instance by making a quarter for every state, so that people will keep at least one of each. The quarter is not the biggest coin of course. But it is the biggest coin commonly used in every day cash transactions, thus would have the biggest effect, although still small compared to the effects of other means. The government borrowing dollars from citizens also keeps it out of circulation, or in the 'right' hands. There are other ways.

To Cavan Man in message 79141. "We have found the enemy and he is us." I loved Walt Kelley's Pogo. I read that strip the day that Pogo said that. It's very funny of course, and in a sense classically true. I get your point. Consider: Sometimes our worst enemy is our slowness to recognize new dangers until it is too late. Some groups have been known to employ this fault of ours to our disadvantage. The Japanese have been one such group.

Belgian in message 79180. Your statement: "...Plunder !..." My response: Exactly.

To Jimbo in message 79225. If they are selling near the top and buying back in after the bottom, it may take quite a while. (His question: How long will it take for the gold dumpers to run out of resources?) (This has apparently been answered in subsequent posts.)

To Cavan Man in message 79245. Your quote: "The US President, George Bush, appeared to imply the administration had abandoned its strong dollar policy. The White House later was forced to insist there had been no policy change after Mr Bush said the currency would "seek its own level based on market forces"." Response: To me this seems consistent with the likelyhood that the president may have had to come to terms with the reality that the U.S. is unable to influence what is happening to the dollar.

To Speedy in message 79255. When more people feel the way you do, a lot of interesting things are going to happen. You are in the right place I think. Buy more gold and wait awhile.

Belgian message 79278. You say: "Defaults, stockmarket declines and rising IRs, do destroy "PERMANENTLY" trillions of that pile of rotting paper at a certain speed, proportionate, to the creation of new rotting paper. Paper comes and paper goes. As dinosours lived and died. And up until now, nobody really knows why dinosours are no more !" Response: The asteroid theory doesn't explain it entirely, since dinosaurs didn't die off for yet another 20,000 years after the asteroid hit. A recent theory therefore explains that reptiles lack diaphrams (not the contraceptive kind but the kind below your lungs, which help you breathe), and that mammals have them. Since all reptiles have to work their rib cages to get air, they can only survive if there is a ratio of oxygen to other gases that is higher than that which mammals can survive in. One theory has it that mammals intentionally altered the atmostphere, specifically for the purpose of eliminating reptiles, and are still doing so. Of course today we know that mammals are capable of doing this. So, evidently, maybe they knew it then also. They were not the first to know this. This, I think, is consistent with my understanding of the world. Whether it ought to be the case that animals want to get rid of each other, well..., in the meantime it does seem to be. I am sure this applies also to syblings, and to people in various warring nations, and among ostensibly peaceful nations as well, and in markets too. (So I think this information does kind of fit with your stated concern and the way you expressed it.) I only hope we don't stop now, because we still haven't got rid of all the reptiles yet. Not to mention the birds -though I should hope that we would keep ducks.

Black Blade (06/27/02; 22:19:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 79356)
Dollar Slides to Brink of Freefall
http://news.independent.co.uk/business/news/story.jsp?story=309438

Snippit:

The US dollar yesterday moved to the brink of free fall � a nightmare scenario for the world economy � after reverberations from the WorldCom scandal triggered panic among investors. The currency came within a whisker of parity with the euro and crashed through key psychological barriers against the yen and the pound as investors rushed to dump dollar assets. "This is threatening to become a disorderly market," David Bloom, global economist at HSBC, said. "There's no better way to show a loss of confidence in a country than through its currency."

Black Blade: Translation - "This is threatening to become a free market." Also, it appears that the massive infusion of Japanese taxpayer cash has temporarily halted the Japanese yen slide into oblivion. At this point it would appear that only the institutional investors are "in the game". Trading volumes have been relatively light in the face of such economic turmoil.

VanRip (06/27/02; 22:14:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 79355)
Trapper
Thanks for the post. The situation in Argentina is a very real case study showing how disastrous it can be for people who have little or no fiat saved up for day to day living. Many people from all walks of life have been reduced to begging for lack of fiat. That situation could go on for a long time.

People who can't wait to convert all their spare cash into PMs should perhaps think twice. A very substantial amount of cash, it seems to me, along with the addition of some small denomination gold coins, as TownCrier suggests, seem to be the sensible way to go, at least for the short to medium term.

timbervision (06/27/02; 22:03:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 79354)
YGM
Maybe you could just sleep on your decision. I read all your posts and always look forward to your insights and obvious wealth of knowledge. I hope the next time you feel the urge to share some new thought you'll let your fingers do the talking.

Black Blade (06/27/02; 21:46:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 79353)
The Death Of Confidence
http://money.cnn.com/2002/06/26/news/worldcom_shoedrops/index.htm

Snippit:

"I think you're going to have people withdraw money for good," says Todd Clark, managing director of listed trading at Wells Fargo Securities. "People are going to say, 'I'd rather bet on the New York Giants because I have a better chance of guessing the result than of knowing what some management team is up to.'"

With the market whipping lower before a late-day recovery took it back to the flatline, Clark's worry was echoing all over Wall Street. "We're seeing basically complete distrust in financial accounting in the Western Hemisphere," says Phil Ruffat of Mizuho Securities USA's futures division. "People are going to pack it up and go."

Of particular concern is global investors who, to judge from the recent declines in the dollar, had already been pulling money from our fair shores. Ruffat, who works closely with Japanese clients, says that foreign confidence in U.S. assets has fallen to a new low. And so both here and abroad investors ploughed money into our stock market. Paul Kasriel, chief U.S. economist at Northern Trust, points out that by the end of 2000 foreigners owned financial assets close to 25 percent of the U.S. capital stock, up from 11 percent in 1990. It is hard, he thinks, to imagine foreigners keeping up that level of investment given what's going on.

"We're taking a lot of the people out of the market permanently," says Bollinger Capital head John Bollinger. "We're losing a whole generation of investors."

Black Blade: Along with tapped out consumers, discouraged investors have been leaving en masse. The only ones investing anymore appear to be investment houses and institutional investors. The question is how long they can keep up the fa�ade before it all collapses in a big horrific crash sweeping away the hopes and dreams of millions. It is going to get very ugly. With the pathetic 2% return on bank accounts, CDs and money market accounts, where else will the consumer turn? As always, get outta debt (and stay outta debt), stash enough cash for several months� expenses, get Gold and Silver portfolio insurance, and start a nonperishable food and basic necessities storage program. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

This article is well worth reading if you get a chance look it over. It should have been submitted for the "Dark Vision" essay contest?

sector (06/27/02; 21:39:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 79352)
Who Holds the $30 Billion in WCOM Bonds?
THERE will be the true pain of WCOM
So...who are the guys? For now the vast majority are hiding.

We shall find out the full list as they sheepishly come forward AFTER the fourth of July.

Perhaps they are hoping for another Al Qaeda attack to divert attention?
++++++++++++

Go to GATA.ORG or G-E and examine today's Dimitri Speck study on intraday average pog over the last 5 years vs. the last two months.

It paints a picture of COMEX buyers gaining control. The last 10 days the sellers have had a slight upper hand. But it seems likely that gold buyers on the COMEX are/will gain even more advocates from the hedge fund group and other institutions strapped for profits.

The market always wins...once it discovers true value (price).

Pizz (06/27/02; 21:33:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 79351)
Downunder
http://www.spectrumcommodities.com/education/commodity/charts/gc.html
Seasonal gold chart.

Pizz

mikal (06/27/02; 21:30:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 79350)
From USAGOLD Live News and Reuters
http://www.usagold.com/dailyquotes.html

Soros blames "Bush factor" for dollar's fall
Thursday June 27, 6:57 PM EDT
By Elif Kaban
LONDON, June 27 (Reuters) - Billionaire investor George Soros on Thursday blamed U.S. President George W. Bush and his team for the fall in the U.S. dollar and declared: "The international financial system is coming apart at the seams."
"I think we're in fairly serious trouble. I do think we're in a crisis situation," said the Hungarian-born hedge fund king-turned-philantropist in a speech to the London Business School on Thursday evening.
"We have the Latin American crisis and we have the declining U.S. dollar, which means that the motor of the global economy is basically switched off," said Soros.
"There is a lack of confidence. That's what I call the 'Bush factor' in the economy," said the 72-year-old speculator.
.....On Thursday, White House economic adviser Lawrence Lindsey said on CNBC television that the administration did support a strong dollar but he also backed the view that the markets should set the value of the currency.
But Soros said: "The claim that markets are always right is a false claim. What's true is that markets are often wrong, therefore you need intervention by central banks."
ANYONE AT HOME?
Soros said the "Bush factor" was to blame for a flight to liquidity in financial markets. "Everyone's going home. The Swiss banks are going home. The strengthening of the yen also clearly shows repatriation," he said. .....Click link for more. ###### Soros slyly blaming Bush for the consequences of many years of incompetance, greed, etc. Quotes like:
"...international financial system is coming apart at the seams." and "...we're in a crisis situation" shows another insider admission that the games about over.

Black Blade (06/27/02; 21:23:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 79349)
Are we a nation of cheaters?
http://www.msnbc.com/news/772748.asp?0si=-&cp1=1

Snippit:

Are we a nation of cheaters? Are lying and manipulation endemic in the higher echelons of the business world? We can hope they are not, but the unfolding scandal at WorldCom raises the question of whether a generation of business leaders has lost its way in the ethical forest.

AFTER SCANDALS ENVELOPED Enron, Tyco International, Adelphia Communications and ImClone Systems, market analysts warned that more problems inevitably would surface. But even the most cynical of observers could scarcely have been prepared for an accounting fraud on the scale of what purportedly was carried out at WorldCom, which now threatens to displace Enron as the nation's biggest bankruptcy case.

President Bush called the case "outrageous" and said the federal government will "fully investigate and hold people accountable for misleading not only shareholders, but employees as well."

Black Blade: Be assured that where there is one or two cockroaches, there are likely many more. We are a different generation for sure. We even had a president who did not know the meaning of the word "is" and who lied under oath. So it is not surprising that we see an epidemic of corporate scandals. This will certainly not be the last.

Black Blade (06/27/02; 21:13:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 79348)
Public Pension Losses on WorldCom Securities May Exceed $1 Bln
http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?ptitle=Top%20Financial%20News&s1=blk&tp=ad_topright_topfin&T=markets_bfgcgi_content99.ht&s2=ad_right1_topfin&bt=ad_position1_topfin&middle=ad_frame2_topfin&s=APRqPThXeUHVibGlj&ao=11788293

Snippit:

New York, June 27 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. state governments may have lost more than $1 billion on investments in securities sold by WorldCom Inc., adding to losses on Enron Corp. months earlier, public retirement fund managers said.

Black Blade: The losses for private funds must be staggering. At least now they won't keep trying to "slam" me anymore.

Black Blade (06/27/02; 21:08:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 79347)
Playboy's 'Women of Enron' Issue Out
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020626/ap_on_re_us/enron_playboy_1

Snippit:

HOUSTON (AP) - Playboy's "Women of Enron" reveal much more than shady accounting in a 10-page pictorial that hits newsstands Friday.

Black Blade: So this is what its come to. I suppose Ken Lay and Jeff Skilling are set to pose for Playgirl now. Sign of the times I guess. Hmmm�

DOWNUNDER (06/27/02; 20:36:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 79346)
@PIZZ - - - - RE UP & DOWN MTHS / QTS Post 79324
"I'd have to lean towards a somewhat feable attempt to keep the lid on 330 gold. PM's tend to be seasonable, and JULY tends to be an up month, although not strong (4th quarter is the time frame where they will have real trouble)."
----------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us. I found the above
sentance to be of particular interest & may be helpful when trying to time a sale of some shares to purchase more physical.No point in selling when prices are depressed.

Would you mind explaining the part in brackets? Are the mths of Oct,Nov & Dec usually strong for Gold prices? TIA

Trapper (06/27/02; 20:31:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 79345)
YGM
I confess it is I who uses "live small" as my sigh off. I am back in Michigan now after working in GA for several years.Up in the north woods and indeed living small. I am suprised that you have read any of my posts as I am not very polished in my prose.With so many erudite posters on this board it brings great fear to post anything here as my lack of education would be exposed, so to have you quote me brings me great joy. I hope you will stay around I have especially enjoyed your information on Yukon gold mining a dream I have always had to do some day.Live small.
RJ

Trapper (06/27/02; 20:10:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 79344)
Vanrip
I understand your quandary over changinf gold for fiat. I think the advise of the board here is to have both for the short run with gold / silver being your longer term wealth holdings. Once fiat dies, and it will take a long time PM's will then take over to exchange alside or in perference to fiat. For example you just returned from vacation say in Japan and had so Yen fiat left from the trip. Most people realise it has value but at this time only a bank etc. can set in US fiat for you. After the baloon goes up it will take time for people to realise gold is better than paper.
So I would refer you to Blak Blades excellent advice. Get out of debt, have cash on hand to several months expenses, get food stores, and a good firearm. I would add get knowledge of the outdoors and those types of skills.Live small.
RJ

Mr Gresham (06/27/02; 20:09:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 79343)
BillinOregon
http://www.myhomelender.com/fed.html
Thanks for the Roger Arnold link: I couldn't find that particular article, but his view on the Fed as a Ponzi scheme is linked above. A few typos and a reverse-stated idea or two (I think you'll sort it out) but a great background for those of us who need to think about the Wiz behind the curtain every now and then.

Could it be that this puppy rolls ALL the way back? To 1913's little-challenged blip on the historical timeline? That is why they'll fight with every last derivative trick -- and every presentable or representable ton of U.S. or IMF or whatever gold in the vault or imagination -- to protect their greater franchise of fiat as long as people will believe in it. Then, on to the next game, as FOA says.

How COULD you be a Giant, and NOT know this? As well as knowing or best-guessing how to play every major bump or wrinkle in the unwinding. At that size, of COURSE you've diversified! Just with a wider choice of vehicles than the commoner is given to consider. It's just that ANOTHER gave us littles the boot in the rear -- direct to the _ultimate_ diversifier!

Stocks -- but only as your temporary printed entry in the Ponzi race -- not as the "buy and hold" of the 401(k)ers. We're seeing the unraveling of the edge-players in that game now. They'll expose the others, those lodged within the "legal" rules of the game, but a game which violates the laws of math and the simple risk/return equation over a physical lifetime...

Cavan Man (06/27/02; 19:42:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 79342)
Hey Randy.......
You're quick with the trigger. Glad you cleared the decks. He's no friend of mine pal. However, I do find it enlightening to hear even what hatemongers think.

LeSin (06/27/02; 19:24:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 79341)
This IS The Best GOLD & PM Forum on the WWW - By A Country Mile
ADMIN: Thanks for removing the Shellus message- Disgustingly hateful and not required here.

USA markets still have a long way DOWN to go. The accounting & disclosure ROT and the discovery thereof still has a few more Names & Entities to reveal. Sadly the rot of "Corporate" and "Investment" America finishes in the Halls of Government. Or does it begin there? A circle unbroken - wobbly though it IS. The USD currency will travel downward as this fraud is exposed, coupled to international displeasure of USA foreign policy.

Can you say "Political Will". Hello FOA-TG & ANOTHER.

GM, Ford, IBM, Microsoft, GE, but to name a few have been spared to date by the 11th Commandment: "Thou Shall Not Get Caught" nothing more & nothing less. Time will reveal ALL.

Protect yourself and your dear ones. Purchase, buy, Hold Real Gold Bullion in Coin or Bars.

GET SOME BEFORE IT IS TOO DEAR!!!

PHYSICAL GOLD THE BEST BUY IN MANY A MANS LIFETIMES!!

YGM- Don't Go away- hang in friend.

Thank you again USA GOLD FORUM Participants ONE & ALL, CM & MK & STAFF

Cheers -- "S"

TownCrier (06/27/02; 19:10:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 79340)
Sorry about your friend, Cavan Man
From past bad experience in the attempts at ongoing damage control, I've learned to simply clear the gangway and let loose cannons do promptly what they will ultimately do anyway... overboard into the sea.

It might not be the tightest ship, nor the fastest, but by any account it sails. Let's hope that most of us here want to keep it that way.

R.

Cavan Man (06/27/02; 19:07:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 79339)
US share markets
Are there any among us here who can argue that US markets are NOT a freak show? If so, I would sincerely like to be persuaded in the hopes that I might learn something. TIA.....CM

Cavan Man (06/27/02; 19:05:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 79338)
BOJ working the evening shift
Nikkei up 170. I wonder if they have any job openings. Their trading business is booming.

sector (06/27/02; 19:02:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 79337)
I Could Be Wrong but the Dollar May fall through 106...
...tonight. The cabal is trying to drop the dollar AND gold.
They get two for one but it costs them dearly as their gold "loans" skyrocket.

The next round of OCC derivatives will show a big rise or the next BIS Report will reveal it.
+++++++++++
Investor confidence is smashed. CALPERS loses $550 Million on WCOM. Florida loses $80 Million, New York about $100 Million. Enron was only the beginning. There are many more WCOMs to come.

The questions are coming fast and furious..."Why did you have even ONE share of tech stock?"
++++++++++++++
Time to buy the dip boys. More and more hedge funds see the truth and light and they too are buying the dips.

Cavan Man (06/27/02; 19:02:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 79336)
sector
That last line was pregnant with......????? Keep them coming oh mysterious one. BTW, (off topic) bought a new set of Hogan Irons and trying them out tomorrow.

Cavan Man (06/27/02; 19:00:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 79335)
shellus: OOPS!
I still liked it. It was way off topic but really interresting.

Pizz (06/27/02; 18:59:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 79334)
Sector
Thank you very much for the GM link. this was nes to me.

I'm in the business, and if GM get's into hot water, this economy is in big, big, trouble. All my focus has been on good old Ford - I fight their finance arm on a weekly basis. Ford's been in hot water for a couple years, and Chrysler is still having food fights with Daimler in the board rooms.

One thing most don't realize is that a sale for GM is not retail, it's wholesale to the dealer. Retail sales are dealer generated. When the factories get into trouble, the pressure on the dealers is horrendous. You can;t believe the pressure we get to fill our lots, and we've been getting a bunch.

Thanks again.

Pizz

Cavan Man (06/27/02; 18:58:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 79333)
shellus
That is a very interesting perspective you have. I very much enjoyed reading it. Your (albeit off topic) post is an admonition to all to read fine forums like this one and use the internet for intellectual enhancement.

sector (06/27/02; 18:27:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 79331)
GM denies accounting problems
Sell the Rumor...Sell the Fact
By Jeremy Grant in Chicago
Published: June 27 2002 18:38 | Last Updated: June 27 2002 18:38

Shares in General Motors, the biggest US motor manufacturer, were briefly suspended on the New York Stock Exchange on Thursday amid rumours - strongly denied by the company - that it was subject to unspecified accounting problems.

GM said: "There's some kind of a rumour out there which is unfounded. We are not subject to an accounting investigation and we strongly believe that our accounting is appropriate."

Investors, already unnerved by revelations of apparent accounting fraud at WorldCom, sent GM shares down $1.08 to $52, or about 2 per cent, in midday trade once trading resumed. The shares earlier hit a low of $51.50.

General Motors in the midst of an aggressive vehicle sales drive, fuelled by zero-financing and other incentives, in an effort to generate cash. The company says it needs to maintain the pressure on sales because of the damage done to its balance sheet by sagging equity markets, which have left its pension liabilities underfunded.

In an interview with the Financial Times last week, Rick Wagoner, chief executive, acknowledged that bolstering GM's balance sheet was the company's single biggest challenge. "Frankly, the negative returns of US equity markets in 2001 really put the pressure on the pension fund," he said.

Industry analysts calculate that if GM's return on pension fund assets is 8 per cent - as opposed to its own assumed return of 10 per cent - the size of its pension shortfall could increase by almost $8bn. Its balance sheet could be further weakened by healthcare obligations, which are forecast by Goldman Sachs to increase by $3.8bn by 2005.

GM is hoping for approval from US regulators for the sale of Hughes, its communications and satellite arm, to US media group Echostar. If cleared, the transaction could bring a $14bn gain for GM.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

GM's pensiuon fund shortfall is $8 Billion if their return is only 8% opposed to 10%. Where are they getting 10% return. Certainly NOT in equity trading.

Must be those pesky derivatives again. JPMorgan is at the core of the coming GM collapse...maybe by Thanksgiving Day.

Cavan Man (06/27/02; 17:21:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 79330)
Dear forum:
When I observe what we all have witnessed these last several days in US markets; and, when I consider the increasingly obvious poor fundamentals of the world reserve currency--against all odds; I am reminded of the many eloquent and insightful comments by one "essayist" (so called from another internet venue) and Another PGA.

Cheers to all...CM

misetich (06/27/02; 17:21:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 79329)
WorldCom: Could It Have Happened Without The Unwitting Complicity Of The Fed?
http://www.ntrs.com/library/econ_research/daily/us/020626.html
Snip:

The poor will always be with us and so, too, will the fraudulent. But could the alleged financial fraud in the US that masqueraded as a "new economy" have risen to the magnitude it did without the unwitting complicity of the Fed? I don't think so. Cheap credit "enabled" the alleged perpetrators of financial fraud. Without cheap credit, they could not have pulled it off. The chart below shows the annual dollar change in the M3 money supply as a percent of the annual amount of new credit funds raised in the US by domestic and foreign nonfinancial borrowers. This percentage is a proxy for the relative amount of credit created figuratively out of thin air by the Fed. As the chart shows, at almost 73%, this percentage was the highest in 2001 since the series started in 1960. The Fed did not knowingly or willfully provide this credit to aid and abet financial fraud. If, however, the Fed had been targeting some monetary aggregate concept, and, as important, hitting that target, the magnitudes of the recent financial scandals could not have taken place.

..................
Residential Investment Adds To GDP - But What About Productive Capital?

Housing starts and home sales flourished in May. They have been flourishing for over a year now, helping to boost GDP. And increases in the housing stock also add to the nation's capital stock. But do the resources going into residential real estate add to "productive" capital stock? Some, but not much. Is housing really an investment good or a consumer good? Are we really going to be able to produce more goods and services that the rest of the world will demand from us in the coming years because we have moved up to bigger houses? Artificially low interest rates promoted the malinvestment in telecom in the late 1990s. Continued artificially low interest rates and tax laws are promoting the malinvestment in housing today. In the historical context of the postwar period, the productivity numbers we have been posting in recent years are not extraordinary. What do you think they will look like in the coming years with so much of our "investment" going towards housing?

The Fed Continues To Invite Folks To Borrow At 1-3/4% -- Will There Be Any Takers In Corporate America?

As expected, the FOMC left its target fed funds rate at 1.75%. It sees both final demand and inventory investment as having moderated of late but expects a pick up in final demand "over the coming quarters." Could monetary policy be becoming less effective as a demand stimulant now? Certainly the federal government is going to be borrowing more in the "coming quarters" regardless of the level of interest rates. And underwriting standards for consumer and mortgage credit do not appear to be tightening. So, households will continue to take on debt at a base rate of 1-3/4%. Corporate America probably would like to borrow more at these low rates. But here's the rub. Investors are frowning on corporations borrowing more because corporate debt-to-asset ratios already are at postwar highs. So, as tempting as interest rate levels are for Corporate America, market discipline is deterring CFOs from taking advantage of low rates for much net new borrowing. The chart below shows how Corporate America has been chastened when it comes to net new borrowing.

...................

Misetich

"In the historical context of the postwar period, the productivity numbers we have been posting in recent years are not extraordinary. What do you think they will look like in the coming years with so much of our "investment" going towards housing? "
Greenspan & Co have been touting productivity as a marketing ploy to attract foreign investments. Draw your own conclusions of where the US economy and more importantly US $ and gold are going

Got gold?

Black Blade (06/27/02; 15:26:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 79328)
Pied Piper of Wall Street called to task

Another Pied Piper is likely to be asked to testify before congress now for his blatant hype of the telecom industry for personal gain in spite of knowing that the companies were "pieces of crap". Like Henry Bloggett of Merrill Lynch who was "allowed" to pursue other interests, the $25 million a year Jack Grubman of Soloman Smith Barney may be sacrificed as well, or "allowed" to pursue other interests. Now it is reported that he will be subpoenaed to testify before congress over the WorldCom fiasco.

In 1999, AT&T was planning to take its wireless division public (at the time the largest IPO in history). Every brokerage wanted to do the underwriting. There was just one problem for Solomon � their chief analyst Jack Grubman was saying negative things about AT&T for years. Gee what a surprise it was when suddenly Grubman changed his rating to a "buy". Solomon got the job as lead underwrite and Grubman didn't have to "pursue other interests".

The IPO went public and promptly sank from $29.50 a share to $14. Yep, nearly 5 million investors got screwed. People thought his analysis was an honest opinion of the markets. Instead it appears that Grubman like Henry Bloggett and Mary Meeker was selling the company line to the public for a "bonus". That of course does not help the millions who lost their hopes and dreams. This is not an isolated case either. Grubman did the same thing with Winstar Communications. He apparently offered glowing reviews so Solomon could obtain a lucrative bond offering.

It was with a bit of pleasure that I watched him get ambushed by a CNBC reporter on the street and peppered with lots of embarrassing questions about his hype over WorldCom. He ran from the cameras hiding his face and trying to dodge questions. He was not a happy camper as he kept saying "why are you harassing me?" Harassment should be the least of his worries. He could go to prison over this (though not likely). If he does go to prison � my advice is: "Don't drop the soap".

- Black Blade

Pizz (06/27/02; 15:04:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 79327)
BB - correction to my post 79324
Substitute July for August with regards to my comment on seasonal PM's. (Never try to do more than three things at the same time)

Sorry,

Pizz

Black Blade (06/27/02; 14:33:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 79326)
Judge Blocks His Own Ruling!!!

Breaking News! The San Francisco Federal Judge (Ninth Circuit Court) who ruled that the "Pledge of Allegiance" was unconstitutional has stayed his own ruling. After such publicity and the possibility of "impeachment", the ruling has been blocked by the very judge who made the ruling.

It should be noted that the Ninth Circuit Court is a liberal "activist" court that attempts to legislate from the bench. This may be OK for California, however, the other western states are not amused as this court has repeatedly attacked private ownership rights and basic individual liberties over the years. The threat of being removed from the bench appears to have more weight than their personal convictions. "Interesting Times"

- Black Blade

TownCrier (06/27/02; 14:13:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 79325)
VanRip -- utilizing resources in times of need
As you've well imagined, there are indeed some scenarios where smaller sized (less than one ounce) gold coins are very useful to have at your fingertips.

Pizz (06/27/02; 14:12:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 79324)
BB & Mr. Gresham
BB: For my .02 worth, I'd have to lean towards a somewhat feable attempt to keep the lid on 330 gold. PM's tend to be seasonable, and August tends to be an up month, although not strong (4th quarter is the time frame where they will have real trouble). Without a major war or terrorist act, they may be able to do it trying to give themselves as much room under 330 as they can to absorb the seasonal August push. (therefore why would one take profits at the bottom?)

IMHO the dollar crash was not in the gameplan, since without it, we'd be somewhere in the 290's right now based upon a 117 dollar and that would have been more than enough "breathing" room as they try to get out from under this derivitives mess. At 290, they might even have been able to get away with a bombing in the US, or a hefty escalation of the Mid East situation.

I'm still of the mindset that our opponents in the war on terror have been, and will continue to wage a financial war against us. Way too much coordinated selling of our financial assets to think otherwise - the normal players in the world arena have too much to lose by cratering us, just look what's happening to foreign stock markets.

Couple all of this with some selective news "blackouts" in areas that gold would benefit from (Enron followup, India Pakistan, and other scandals (thankyou nickel62), it smacks of control and desperation. The derivitives have time limits, and the longer they can put off the inevitable, the closer they come to saving their collective butts, but don't ask me to bet on their survival, and that of a few major banks, or our standard of living . . . .

Mr. Gresham: My hat is off to you, you've found a way to do dishes and post at the same time. Just where did you find a keyboard immune to liquid? I'd like to know, cause I have a few bucks invested in ones that didn't have the ability to survive either my morning coffee or my afternoon scotch & soda(s)- depends on my mood). (I think YGM needs one too, assuming we can cool him off enough to come back (smile)

Pizz

VanRip (06/27/02; 13:59:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 79323)
Converting Gold to Fiat in Time of Need
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/newsid_1954000/1954363.stm
Though this has been hashed out somewhat before, I still wonder how I would go about converting one of my gold one-ounce coins to fiat, if I needed cash to survive in a worst-case scenario, especially if the coin was worth hundreds and hundreds of dollars or more.

I doubt the local grocery store would be taking gold coins for some milk and eggs. I couldn't send it to the mortgage company several states away. And the banks may not even be open, if we get into an Argentina-type situation. Do I mail it back to MK? Then what, if the banks are closed. Will he send me cash?

What could I do if I'm flat broke, down and out and desparate for fiat? I'm rich but starving.

Speaking of Argentina, a small snippet below about
hard times in Argentina. I read somewhere that something called "creditos" also has been created and is being used as currency. I wonder what gold coin holders are doing there to get spending money.

snip

"If the situation seems hard in Buenos Aires, the difficulties in the provinces are far worse. Many bankrupted provincial governments have resorted to printing their own bonds to pay civil servants. People use these bonds as a local currency to buy food or clothes.

For example in La Rioja, in the northwest of Argentina, nearly half of the work force is employed by the government.

These people are paid most of their salaries with "Evitas", the provincial bonds carrying the image of Eva Peron.

Mar'a Alejandra is 17 years old. She lives in La Rioja and works in a little store.

"Every time someone pays me in pesos I have trouble giving change," she said. "We don't see many pesos here. We have so many different papers.

"Most of the people use "Evitas", but we also accept the national bond called "lecop" and we even accept restaurant tickets as currency.

"The people who pay in pesos, want to receive their change in pesos, but we just don't have them.

"But travel is not even an option for me so I don't worry too much about it. As long as I have 'Evitas' I am happy because I can buy things. Sometimes even 'Evitas' are hard to come by."

TownCrier (06/27/02; 13:58:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 79322)
Quarterly revaluation
EuroSystem reserve assets receive mark-to-market treatment tomorrow. I elaborated on this last Thursday (posted the 27th -- for anyone wanting more specific info).

While monetary officials can't be surprised by the fading of dollar reserves, at the same time that can't be pleased with the drubbing their complementary gold reserves have taken at the hands of derivative influences.

Put two and two together and you'll get a reasonable look at the brave new world of the future.

R.

Black Blade (06/27/02; 13:56:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 79321)
David Tice Interview

Short but to the point. A crisis of confidence permeates US markets. He is Bullish on gold with perhaps a short pull back due to the rapid run up, though he looks for very strong gains in gold (his Prudent Bear fund has about half gold and silver shares). He believes that this is a "secular bear" market and not a "cyclical bear" market (I agree). He discussed the TYCO and WorldCon disasters.

Amazingly, the US equities markets are punching higher even though there is no positive news that warrants such strong market action. We are in a slack period of the year known as the "summer doldrums" where there is very light trading volumes. It is easier to move the markets in this kind of environment. It does provise a lot of "entertainment" as a lot of investors could get seriously "whip-sawed" in this environment.

- Black Blade

TownCrier (06/27/02; 13:50:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 79320)
Good perspective by WGC's Rhona O'Connell
http://www.gold.org/
From today's report:
---------
After failing to breach the $325/ounce level yesterday as the equity markets turned around, gold slipped back towards $320 under some selling both from professionals and from the trade in New York hours.

Part of this is likely to have been liquidation against previously-established delta hedge positions against the $325 strike on the OTC options series that expired at 13:30 GMT yesterday, as the $325 calls were not at that point in the money.

There has been some suggestion also that funds may have been liquidating gold positions in order to raise cash against equity margin calls. This has happened more than once before as gold has been used as a risk hedge.

This reflects not only the negligible correlation between gold and equities and also the depth of the gold market, but the fact that gold's spot settlement period is two trading days. This is shorter than for the majority of the world's equity markets; New York, for example, is three.

Thus a gold trade will settle earlier than a trade executed on the same day in the equity markets, giving the market participant some breathing space.
--------

It's not only what you know, but how you use it that saves your bacon.

admin (06/27/02; 13:42:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 79319)
New Day, New Opportunity
We have begun a new program for selling gold. We are offering certain products available for immediate delivery and at reduced prices.

The catch?

You can only find out what they are and the prices by calling our offices and talking either to
Marie Ballard (ext.106),
Jonathan Kosares (ext.110) or
George Cooper (ext.102).

There are several different items now on SPECIAL. . . . . .

First Come, First Served. Limited quantities of each item for immediate delivery. Items will come off the SPECIAL board as they are sold out.

Call toll free (800) 869-5115

Mr Gresham (06/27/02; 13:29:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 79318)
Not gonna go there
Story on appeals court ruling -- pledge to homeland & ref to its deity, I guess, and if we're smart, we'll sit back and watch others act out sufficient stupidity until it blows over.

Occurs to me (while doing dishes), what is the value of the periodic descent into "Security Madness" (US hasn't been significantly invaded in, oh, about 200 years)?

In evolutionary terms, possibly the baboon who gets others to listen to his danger alarm signals (antecedents of human speech?) achieves some status in the pack?

Then, what occurs to the signaling baboon the first (or second, or N'th) time he signals incorrectly ("oops, thought I saw a tiger there -- sorry, gang") and everyone scatters for the treetops? He comes back to the feeding ground and finds some juicy morsel someone else was working on, left for his sole attention. ("Alarmed survival trumps eating.")

Better yet, he comes back and finds some disconnected female he's always wanted to get to know better, in need of comforting, and now the dominant guys are off in a farther treetop. Hmmmmm...

Doesn't take much for a clever baboon to figure out that a few false signals now and then never hurt anyone -- but they sure helped him out a few times! Mix things up and see where they fall out. Beats working for a living!

"'Twas ever thus" saith Mr. Natural.

Don't let them bait you. You've got only so many days left, and so many moves in ya.

Black Blade (06/27/02; 13:27:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 79317)
Gold Price Manipulation or Profit Taking?

The Daily Market Report is updated. Here is the question for the forum There are many reports of bank selling (one being a major seller of gold). The excuses run the gammut from price fixing to profit taking. You decide - the pros are confused. Is it some nefarious bankers attempting to control the market or just some opportunistic bankers?

BTW, Market Bear David Tice is coming up on CNBC shortly.

- Black Blade

Henri (06/27/02; 13:25:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 79316)
BillinOregon msg #79290
I truly enjoyed your stud poker analogy and did not miss your final point at all. I think it is right on the fiat (as it were).

It brought to mind a similar analogy where the Treasury floats the whole game by giving player 2, the fed, enough gold for all players. The Fed is the "banker who issues "Chips" for the players to make bets with. This keeps the gold off the table. Professional Players create IOU's (paper promise) to acquire chips that represent the gold, promising to give the chips back if they break even (clearing their IOU) but want gold at the end of the game if they make a profit. Well, player 4 the average guy, thinks the chips are all it and never thinks to "cash them in" for gold as he is convinced that the chips are worth more. He thinks with chips he has an opportunity to win more chips in the game and cannot figure out why player 3 left the game so early and did not notice him "cashing in" at the Fed Bank. Meanwhile Fed bank friends asked him to loan some of the "kitty" gold since it wasn't being used on the promise they would pay it back with a small interest before anyone wanted to cash in his chips.. Fed thinks he can make a quick buck on the side so he agrees. Friends default now Fed has to cover the action. He secretly feeds more counterfeit (unbacked) chips into the game to make it appear "rich" and maybe attract more players�highrollers� that might put up some real gold to make up for his deficit. He figures he can bleed off the excess chips somehow later once the gold is in the "kitty"( market crash? No just a clean out of player 4 who never really knew what the game was anyway). Enter the highrollers from other countries. OK so now the excess chips are being siphoned off, but the foreigners are playing a very good game and are looking to have accumulated most all the available chips. They are putting on their coats and starting to count up their chips getting ready to cash them in. Player 1, the treasury, realizes that they are about to be cleaned out permanently and asks some of his buddies if they have any gold to put up to keep the game going. Enron reaches into both pockets , pulls them inside out and shrugs. Worldcom and Tyco do the same and points to their auditors saying well no there are not any "Real" profits here, not even any spare chips�just book juggling.

Pizz (6/27/02; 13:05:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 79315)
sector
I usually carry a one ounce Philly, probably cause I only have one (tend to have my stash in maples since I'm close to Canada and I like the pure stuff), and when I talk to people about gold, an example of the real thing usually comes in handy, but

goin' back to golf, every once in a while we get the ocasional country club slummer in his $300 dollar golf slacks, shirt, etc. and most of these guys usually have some little gimmic to grab attention or intimidate us poorer sheeple (sound a bit like a few CEO's I know).

But anyway, I've had more than one use a silver dollar for a marker, and that is just plain ostentious. They usually get the message when I casually drop the Philly down on the green. My partner laughs his butt off every time I do it, cause I usually can get a money game out of the guy, and Gold usually win's out over silver (sorry Rich) and just maybe I'm a little better player than I give myself credit for (smile).

Pizz

sector (6/27/02; 12:46:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 79314)
@pizz About Your "Golden Ball Marker"
I use a French Angel...Shined up on my power buffer...aimed into the eyes of my opponent
...even with all that I still can't manage much of a score.

My favorite trick is to get them thinking about their "Portfolios". THAT usually works. They quickly develop a death grip on their clubs.

sector (6/27/02; 12:37:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 79313)
Gov't Restates Earnings - Data Due out July 31, 2002 - Early Snippets Leaked Below
http://www.morganstanley.com/GEFdata/digests/20020627-thu.html#anchor0
Jun 27, 2002
Global: House of Mirrors
Morgan Stanley - Stephen Roach (New York)

Lest I be accused of piling on, read no further if you're looking for the next WorldCom. I don't have a clue. But I do know that Corporate America is not alone in cooking its books. Washington statisticians seem poised to join the restatement sweepstakes with a stunning rewrite of the recent performance of the US economy. So much for the boom!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Big restatements are coming from the BES [Bureau of Economic Statistics]. On the order of 10% in many areas.

Productivity will be revised downward, personal income, cap spending...you are getting the picture.

What little faith that remained in government data will be dealt a hammer blow when the full report is released on July 31, 2002.

Between now and then I wonder how many more accounting irregularities will surface? GE?, Proctor and Gamble? Ford? ...IBM?

Perhaps these CFOs should look to heavyweight boxing loser Mike Tyson when he said "I'm just trying to get some Bolivian".

Black Blade (6/27/02; 12:32:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 79312)
Deutsche Bank to Cut 3,800 Jobs
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/020627/deutsche_bank_jobs_1.html

Deutsche Bank Announces Plans to Cut Nearly 3,800 More Jobs, 4.3 Percent of Work Force

Snippit:

BERLIN (AP) -- Germany's Deutsche Bank said Thursday it plans to cut nearly 3,800 additional jobs, or 4.3 percent of its work force, over the next year as it deepens a drive to cut costs. Germany's biggest bank said some 1,970 posts would be cut in a restructuring of the group's corporate and investment bank division. Those include 1,025 cuts in the Americas, 315 in Britain, 320 in the rest of Europe and 310 in the Asia-Pacific region.

Black Blade: There go some "Banker Bones".

Black Blade (6/27/02; 12:21:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 79311)
Motorola to Cut 7,000 Jobs
http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/020627/telecoms_motorola_outlook_7.html

Snippit:

CHICAGO (Reuters) - Motorola Inc. (NYSE:MOT) said on Thursday it will cut 7,000 more jobs and take charges totaling about $3.5 billion, essentially ending its downsizing, as it contends with sharply reduced spending in the depressed technology and telecommunications sectors.

Black Blade: The "Bone Pile" grows. Economic recovery? Hmmm�

Pizz (6/27/02; 12:13:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 79310)
nickel62
Just a little selective non-followthrough probably at the suggestions of a few reporters' bosses?

I'm still waiting for some Enron follow-up on the few thousand partnerships they had. WHERE'S THE MONEY???
I know they know, cause the FIRST thing the clean-up crew does is head right for the cash and marketable securities accounts. Been there a few times.

Pizz

Pizz (6/27/02; 12:07:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 79309)
Robot Guy
About three months ago, I was having a bit of trouble hanging on to ball markers (I play golf, albeit poorly), so I started using a 1/10 maple knowing I wouldn't lose it.

Spent more time checking my pocket for that little devil that I did playing golf. Now it's back in a nice safe place, or so my wife says, (thank whomever it's not a credit card or fiat, cause she can't hang on to either.)

Pizz

nickel62 (6/27/02; 11:53:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 79308)
How many people remember this news story or have heard a word about it since it slipped out on a holiday in the market?
/13 NY Post - GOLDMAN RAN IPO SCAM, TRADER SAYS
New York Post
GOLDMAN RAN IPO SCAM, TRADER SAYS
By JESSICA SOMMAR and BEN SILVERMAN

May 13, 2002 -- A former hedge fund staffer says he has detailed Goldman Sachs' involvement in IPO "laddering" schemes to regulators looking into alleged illegal practices in the IPO market during the tech boom, The Post has learned.

Nicholas Maier, a former executive at loud-mouth television commentator Jim Cramer's hedge fund during the go-go late '90s, had a ringside seat to the goings-on. He told The Post he spoke for six hours with investigators from the Securities and Exchange Commission.

He told the SEC that while he was at Cramer & Co., now known as Cramer Berkowitz & Co., Goldman Sachs repeatedly made the allocation of coveted initial public offering shares a condition of his buying additional shares at a price to be determined later by Goldman Sachs.

"The more I promised to buy in the aftermarket, the more shares I could expect to get," Maier said he was told by a Goldman Sachs broker. "If I reneged on my aftermarket order, I could expect to feel the consequences, or be docked on future allocations," Maier alleged.

Maier told lead SEC investigator for the IPO investigations Tammy Stark on April 29 that Goldman kept a "book" on each deal that recorded the price at which Maier should buy more stock.

Maier said that after the three-hour interview, the SEC showed him one of those books, for Marvell Technology Group, which went public in June 2000 in an offering led by Goldman Sachs.

"It has a column for aftermarket orders, and in it was listed an order for the stock from Cramer & Co. for 35 percent above the opening price," Maier said. "This is the smoking gun," Maier said he thought at the time.

Goldman Sachs officials declined comment.

"Jim's firm did not do anything improper with regard to IPOs," said Cramer's lawyer Eric Seiler. Seiler said the SEC has not contacted Cramer.

Soliciting orders to buy additional shares - at an inflated price - after the IPO stock begins trading in the open market is known as "laddering" or "tie-in agreements."

Legal experts say it can be illegal to tie the allocations of shares to additional purchases. The practice, which Maier says was widespread on Wall Street, served to jack up stock prices artificially.

Additional buying gave the impression, to the uninitiated, that demand for that stock was skyrocketing. It fed the appetite for tech stocks and the IPO boom that later went bust, wiping out $4 trillion in market value.

The SEC's probe into illegal laddering practices by Wall Street's elite brokerages is a continuation of the successful investigation into how IPOs were allocated by Credit Suisse First Boston.

In January, CSFB settled charges that the firm extorted high commissions from clients before giving them big chunks of hot IPO stocks. CSFB paid a $100 million fine to the SEC without admitting or denying guilt. But the investigation led to the dismissal of three employees and the resignation of top exec Allen Wheat.

Meanwhile, there are hundreds of lawsuits from angry investors seeking millions in compensation.

Maier's damaging testimony and that of others could bring bigger troubles for Goldman Sachs and other Wall Street firms at the center of the SEC's laddering probe.

Morgan Stanley, Robertson Stephens and J.P. Morgan Chase are also reportedly subjects of the probe.

Maier wrote a book published in March called "Trading with the Enemy," about his former employer and controversial CNBC on-air personality and co-founder of financial news Web site TheStreet.com - Jim Cramer. A chapter in that book entitled "House of Cards" triggered the SEC to invite Maier to testify, Maier said.

Cramer, no longer affiliated with the hedge fund, has dismissed the allegations in Maier's book

RobotGuy (6/27/02; 11:44:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 79307)
Pizz- - - I like to think about it this way.......
Is it safer in the bank's vault where I can't personally protect it, or safer in my pockets?

Sorry, I don't trust anyone other than myself, and sometimes even I get a little iffy (returned smile)

Cheers!

Pizz (6/27/02; 11:37:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 79306)
Robot Guy
Used the same logic a couple times myself, just substitute a Toyota Pickup and a beat-up Tercel for the Beemer. (Smile)

I won't comment on 20K of Au in your fromt pocket.

Pizz

Gandalf the White (6/27/02; 10:41:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 79305)
See what reading on this FORUM does to a person ? <;-)
I dreamed last night about a newscaster reporting on the BIG STORY ! His name is Jon BlackBlade (also known as "Golden Scoop").
He was reporting directly from "MONEY HEAVEN".
He was asking the hard questions of the Head Person of "MONEY HEAVEN".
She was giving direct, no nonsense answers (unlike Mr. Greenspun and others).
"Scoop" ask the HEAD PERSON (name withheld) -- "How is business ?"
"Starting to pickup !" she replied.
"Scoop" then ask her to explain how "MONEY HEAVEN" and the US of A economy related to Global Financial operations.
"HEAD PERSON" hesitated for a moment and then said,
"Sit down, as this will take a while to explain."
"You can easily understand the examples of National Governmental allocations from the likes of Thailand, South Korea, Indonesia, and others in the mid to late 1990's, and recently Argentina -- YES?"
"OK, then, First of all, let me start to explain using the examples of GLOBAL Corporate fait allocations to "MONEY HEAVEN" like WorldComm and specific US of A allocations from say, Enrun."
"We here in "MONEY HEAVEN" received approximately TWENTY BILLION US$ from our friends at Enrun, and THIRTY BILLION US$ from our friends at WorldComm."
"Do you see now why Mr. Greenspun needs to keep creating all those new US$ and the PPT needs to help the Stock Market from taking a DIVE ?"
"SOMEONE has to fill that FIFTY BILLION US$ hole!!"
"Perhaps you can see why many others are feeling like GWB was looking."
"Sorry, but I have to run now, the next allocation is getting ready to come in."
Then, Ace Reporter Jon BlackBlade signed off with a BIG SMILE and the comment "I told you so!"
< ; - )>>

RobotGuy (6/27/02; 10:01:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 79304)
Jayzee - - - Danger's of keeping physical on hand
It's kind of silly for the most part that people are concerned about keeping physical gold on hand. Sure we don't mind parking our $60,000 bmw on the street corner, but we're afraid to keep $30,000 worth of gold in our houses? I'm not talking about you (Jayzee), I mean we the people in general.
Dang, I guess I'm stupid that way, I'll walk down the street with $20,000 worth of gold in my front pockets.

Cheers!

RobotGuy

Chris Powell (6/27/02; 09:59:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 79303)
Suspicions grow that governments are intervening surreptitiously
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/1159
Market reversals prompt growing suspicions of
surreptitious government intervention:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/1159

To subscribe to GATA's dispatches
by email and get them immediately so
you don't have to go look for them,
send an email to:

gata-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

jayzee (6/27/02; 09:52:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 79302)
Holding Solid Gold
The bullion banks can print an almost unlimited number of paper contracts for gold, but they cannot create solid gold.

When the POG goes up, they start selling at the higher prices, and continue selling until the price retreats.
Then the speculators panic and sell which drives the price lower.

The banks then repurchase most of the contracts at a lower price than they received when they sold them, thereby making a nice profit and manipulating the market at the same time. Looks like the speculators would catch on to the scam, and quit trading, or go long term investing and ask to delivery. (They would have to make arrangements to safely store the gold, which is why many will not go this route.)

I have a balance of PM stocks and physical. I believe that if the majority of us gold bugs would do this, we would be able to defeat the cabal a lot sooner!

RobotGuy (6/27/02; 09:32:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 79301)
Ooooh, that 9000 mark on the DOW must be a very significant one,..somebody doesn't want it to fall below!

RobotGuy (6/27/02; 09:24:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 79300)
Belgian - - - I do believe it's time
I am about to make my next Lilliputian advance. Out with the mining stocks with the remainder of my playing money and my final personal sizeable allocation of physical. I don't think I'm going to get another chance like this for awhile. Canadian dollar is up, gold slightly down, and we're on the verge of the next golden typhoon as far as my meager mind can calculate. Hopefully I can place my order before she skyrockets.

It's in my best personal interest.

Cheers!!

Belgian (6/27/02; 09:22:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 79299)
da2g's reply to Jimbo !
Brilliant Sir...very brilliant ! It took me a lot of time and study to reach at the same (your) conclusions. I made the same furniture-reasoning to my brother, real estate trader. Promiss to sell the same house over and over again, attrackting new candidate (paper-contract) buyers, day after day, simply by, permanently, lowering the fictional price (not the value) of that house for paper-sale. What a marvellous illusionary game...for the OWNER OF THE HOUSE (Gold) ! Masses of option-holders on this house are on the losing side of the equation. The only permanent winner is and remains the owner of the house (Gold). And my brother added, when understood,...hope that the contract holders keep on bluffing about their profits ! Then we both a LOL.
Thanks da2g, for bringing it up, this elegant way.

White Rose (6/27/02; 09:19:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 79298)
ino dollar value graph stopped working
The Dollar index has stopped reporting at 106.62. I think it is lower now, but I am not sure. Is there another way to get the index than from ino?

Belgian (6/27/02; 09:03:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 79297)
@Billon Oregon/Jimbo/Robotguy/YGM....we the lilliputans....
As midgets, we can only put our minuscule shoulders under our own Gold coins. Analyse and get full understanding of what is happening to Gold and acquire a high degree of certainty (probability) for Gold's future ! Once this job has led to firm conclusions, w're left with our choice to volunteer as Gold Advocates, thanks to and through, CPM, as a Physical Gold dealer and fine host.

If our argumentations for accumulating Physical, do make sense...other lilliputans will finally decide to do as such. The Giants out there never needed any of our clumsy would-be lessons. The simply know and act !
Hoping that nobody here doubts about the existance of such Gold Gods ?

The repetition of consistent arguments pro Physical Gold, (TG's archives) will cap the eventual attention of much more important (Gold)people than ourself. Sound and independant analysis attracks the attention when things detoriate and can speed up the final outcome of our Gold case. We are not alone here in this advocacy. There are many others (still growing group) out there who silently come closer to the (Physical) consensus. YGM' isn't this enough a reason for NOT saying good by and restart contributing to the activism ? (give us an understanding smile Sir)

Billon Oregon : Nice analysis exposed in your posting. And indeed, player after player will leave the circus for many different reasons. And sooner or later, they will cast an eye on Gold and throw some dollars at it for finally touching it Physically. Derivative-fatique !

Jimbo/Robotguy : Did you see how many lurkers want to join this forum when MK offers some real Gold prizes ?
If one should decide within a fraction of seconds to grab (make a choice between) for 1 ounce Physical Gold coin or 1.000 US$-paper...what would one's "first" *impulsive* reaction be ? If this test is negative for Gold, we (and the Goldproducers) still have a lot of voluntaristic work to do.

But the Giants will help us at the appropiate time with very convincing arguments !!! POG gaps up ! There will be very few coins (choices) left. Gold already is scarce, but hardly seen under these piles of (rotting) paper. A rotting process often evolves into selfcombustion once enough of critical paper-mass has been obtained/accumulated !

Disclaimer : I am still accumulating Physical Gold and the vieuws, here represented, are therefore strongly biased.

Holiday time.

da2g (6/27/02; 08:56:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 79296)
Belgian...
Belgian: Thanks for your thoughts.

YGM: Please don't go away angry. I agree with Mr Gresham.

da2g (6/27/02; 08:20:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 79295)
Jimbo #79286
Jimbo, your point regarding physical manipulation is well taken. I don't know if I have the answer, but in my personal situation, I have begun a trend to value my wealth in terms other than dollars. I would have to agree with your thoughts from Richard Russell, that in the future, gold will be valued at a multiple of what it is currently. I prefer to think of this value not in terms of dollars, but in terms of purchasing power. So, in my circumstance, I view a portion of my wealth as X ounces of gold, not $Y dollars worth of gold. With a longer term view in mind, I anticipate that this X number of ounces will be equivalent to so many goods and services in the not too distant future, and this is a multiple of its current equivalent. So a $4 or $10 drop in the dollar price today has no effect on my perception of my wealth, for I still hold X ounces, and my view of its future purchasing power remains unchanged. This is wealth that I do not need today to live my life, and I can afford to view it in terms of what I believe its fair value will be in the future. Actually, a near term dollar drop works to my advantage, as I am more advantageously able to translate my dollar denominated wealth holdings into gold. In this manner, over time, my stocks, futures, and other dollar denominated wealth become less and less, and my wealth as viewed in gold ounces becomes more and more.

As for manipulation of the physical, if you take this as a given, then when will it end, if ever? If it never ends, or if over time, the purchasing power of an ounce of gold becomes less, then I certainly will have committed myself poorly. I have considered this, but assign to it a small probability, and place my bets accordingly. But it is possible. In my own feeble mind, it is difficult to influence the price of an item that you have little control over. I am betting that the influence of Central Bank gold, and forward sales of gold in the ground has some mathematical limit. These ounces are finite. A miner can sell forward (legitimately) only those ounces that exist in the ground. Beyond that, this source of influence may be discounted. And this assumes that the obligations can be met into the future, that mining at the agreed to price can be profitably undertaken. This is a hopeful assumption, in my opinion. Who is to say what the cost of electricity, mining equipment, tax structure, personnel, etc will be 2, 5 or 10 years into the future?

Similarly with Central bank gold. Unless they loan out the same ounce of gold multiple times (similar to reserve banking, but in this circumstance I consider to be fraudulent), there is a limit to this form of influence. Perhaps this can go on for many more years. I do not claim to know. But it cannot go on forever (legitimately, at least).

I think the themes of Another and FOA dovetail nicely with this. If indeed more ounces of Central Bank Gold have been committed, or loaned, than actually exists, then the bluff can be called by insisting on delivery of the actual physical. Not a paper promise. Physical gold, period. I can sell my dining room furniture many times over, and issue a slip of paper entitling the bearer the right to pick up the furniture on Saturday morning. But woe be it to me if I am home on Saturday morning, when 2, or 3 or 4 or more trucks arrive in my driveway, each driver bearing a similar slip of paper. What is the value of each slip of paper now? What is the value of the furniture?

In our own small ways we can help to call this bluff by taking an ounce or two off of the table. That is one or two ounce fewer than someone can control, promise, or otherwise manipulate. If this volume becomes substantial enough, then the true value of an ounce of PHYSICAL gold may become known.

I don't know if this addresses your question, and please me for the rather long- winded reply, but I am finding that this view is offering me some degree of comfort during these "interesting times".

da2g

Topaz (6/27/02; 08:10:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 79294)
YGM
I for one Ken have enjoyed your contribution these last few Years, Your tales of prospecting, Your many and varied exploits "at the Goldface" and your yeoman efforts on behalf of Gata and Gold. This Forum is a much better place for you having been here and I sincerely hope to see the YGM handle gracing my screen well into the future.....besides...things are just hotting up...hang in here Brother!

Mr Gresham (6/27/02; 07:51:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 79293)
YGM -- Uh-uh-uh, brother
Not gonna slip away that easily.

When we get in a tussle with someone (I remember something with Pandagold, and a few snippy religious remarks made on a Sunday morning, getting me hot unner the collar), it makes us feel pretty useless in the overall scheme of things.

Take a break -- be back bright & early tomorrow, with or without a new keyboard...

Carl H (6/27/02; 07:50:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 79292)
Article Title: O'Neill: Lying CEOs should be jailed
IMHO, lying government bureaucrats should be jailed with them.

Belgian (6/27/02; 07:45:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 79291)
@ DA29
Nice to hear your wise conclusions based on experience of the reality. As the WGC states in its mailing : The paper contract goldmarket is "used" as a hedge (insurance) for equity (and bond/IR) risks (margin calls/hedging). Herewith amphasizing "again" that the Gold market is a paper market and its prices are paper prices ! The 5 Trillion $ who never were and vaporized from Nasdaq paper values, didn't flow (fraction of) into Physical Gold. Healthy Physical Gold uptake is countered by these insurance/hedge manias.
The only ones that will really profit from this "modern" modus operandi are the stealth Physical Gold Accumulators !
As you give evidence of not being able to make paper profits into this paper gold market on a consistent basis.
Paper-gold-trading for individuals must be a big generator of frustrations and emotionally exhausting.

Exhaustion and frustration will be the fate of all other would be small (day-hour)traders in stock/bond-derivatives.
Ten times 10% profit (=100%) can be erased with one single "wrong" and unexpected move. Result is a break even at best and a lot of energy gone for nothing. It is evident that you will never hear this from those who organise or comment on this financial circus.

It isn't surprising at all that individuals and funds do demand more and more (complicated) insurance instruments (derivatives) on top of OVERVALUED paper (any paper). The financial brotherhood is as happy as can be, to provide/deliver those instruments. Modern times, you know !

The stop - go - reverse, paper leveraged circus, will fade out slowly through exhaustion or crash with a big bang for God knows what reason to be invented by future history writers. This will finally result in Physical uptake with full payment as common practice. Free Gold, where trade of the Physical will dominate the remaining paper trade.
This will be also the case for good quoted enterprises that will become extremely undervalued and therefore *wanted* into full possession (not a derivative of) by the surviving value seekers.

Today I see plenty of 10% (up) moves. How can this be the beginning of a sustained recovery ? This derivative obsessed circus can resussitate any Lazarus (any stock/bond) and knock down any Giant (Gold) in a fraction of time. Modern magic in modern times ! This has NOTHING to do with conventional investment or normality in its broadiest sense. This is MANIA ! Thanks da2g.

BillinOregon (6/27/02; 07:43:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 79290)
Roger Bently Arnold's comments
http://www.myhomelender.com

Yesterday was a very bad day. The run in the market through the closing rally to bring the equity markets back to even for the day was the result of market manipulation; in my opinion. As a rational human being, understanding the guidelines within which markets interact I can draw no other conclusion; although I can not prove it.

There was a coordinated effort on the part of several investors to prop the equity markets in the US up at the open of yesterdays market by buying into the futures markets. This lets the equity traders know that there is willing money on the sidelines ready to buy in should the market fall. That signal in itself is usually all it takes to keep the short sellers out and calm the nerves of the traders considering selling. In other words it caps what could be a capitulation event. It removes the question of whether or not there are buyers by creating buyers. The futures buyers are in essence saying don't worry be happy we are here if you need us.

The question has to be asked however, who would do this?

The WCOM news broke after the equity exchanges in the US had closed for the day on Tuesday. Asian and European markets were down dramatically over the course of the next 16 hours. There was the largest single day flight into 2 year treasury notes by the opening in New York on Wednesday that I can ever recall experiencing, down 1/4% in yield. Gold had spiked up $5 in Hong Kong. The dollar was plunging against gold, euro and yen.

But, the buying interest in the equity futures in the US was inordinately large prior to the open, stayed relatively high all day and then spiked up again right at 2:15 eastern time. That is when the FED made its announcement of no move on rates. Apparently some of the traders had been speculating that the FED would lower rates. For whatever reason, the sell off began to accelerate dramatically at 2:15 and so did the futures buying. This isn't trying to catch a falling knife this standing in front of a freight train; you can't win.

This makes no sense at all. There is no legitimate trading model anywhere I am aware of that would have made this call. I can not create a model that would validate that as a strategy. There is an old saying in the equity markets; don't try to catch a falling knife. In this case they weren't just trying to catch the falling knife, gamble on a market bottom and turn around, they were literally containing the negative momentum by promising to buy stock that was plunging in price before it started plunging but after it became apparent that it would. This is the anti-investment model. This is the kind of model you build when determining the most efficient way of disposing of your wealth in the fastest way possible if your only choice was to do so through the equity markets. Am I making sense?

So, the question has to be asked who would do this?

The most logical scenario would require some sort of government intervention or government induced intervention. In 1988, following the October 1987 Dow plunge, an organization called the Working Group on Financial Markets was created by the President of the US. Since then it has become known as the Plunge Protection Team. There are links below for more information so I won't go into detail about how it works here.

The communications platform that creates the formal relationship the between the public sector, US Treasury, and private sector, US Federal Reserve, as well as equity, bond and commodities exchanges is the "Working Group".

It is important to understand the nuance here. A predetermined way of disseminating the Executive Administrations interests in the financial markets to those markets was created. In other words this group was not simply created to allow for an orderly collection of information for delivery to the administration. This is a working group, with workers on both sides. The group is designed to collect information from the private sector as well as deliver requests to the private sector. The group required an executive order to be created in order to provide everyone working within its framework an appearance of legitimacy while manipulating the markets.

This is generally how it would work: WCOM announces fraud and the world wide markets begin to sell off. The members of the "Working Group" don't have to wait for somebody to call them to tell them what to do. The creation of the group itself has already created the expectation of action to contain the crisis and the intended cooperation between public and private authorities to ensure its success. The exchange of phone calls I will now list need not happen as everyone involved would know what was expected of them.

Treasury Secretary O'Neill calls Fed Chairman Greenspan and says you better get your banks to start buying stock or anything else to support this market if you expect the tax payer to come in with a bail out package later. The implication is clear. The private sector banks had better put some of their capital at risk and even guarantee its loss in order to try to hold back the collapse if these banks are going to come to the Treasury if it doesn't work and ask for a tax payer bail out.

So Dr. Greenspan calls the member banks of the FED and other private institutions, JP Morgan, Merrill Lynch, Goldman Sachs, etc.; and says you guys better do what ever is necessary to support the markets. The cheapest and easiest way to support the markets without putting a lot of money at risk is to buy futures. In essence, make a promise to buy the stock should it begin to fall. The idea being that the stock won't fall because the sellers know there are buyers and won't panic trying to get out because of it. Ideally the crisis is then averted and no real money had to be exchanged.

The problem is that it was still manipulation. The treasury secretary just sold a tax payer bail out to the FED should it be necessary. The FED just bought a tax payer bail out in the future by putting capital at risk today. The point being that the futures buying was manipulated and not driven by market fundamentals.

Put another way :

Imagine you get together with 3 of your buddies to play poker and the four of you are sitting around playing 5 card stud. One player is called the Treasury. one the FED, one a professional card player (trader) and one just a plain old once a week with the boys card player (typical "long term" investor) As the night wears on the FED is beginning to lose more than the others. So, the dealer (treasury) tells the player (FED) that he'll give him 6 cards if agrees to split the pot with him should the player getting the 6 cards win and that if he continues to lose anyway the treasury will step in and give him money to keep playing. But stepping in to give the FED money to keep playing is a last resort. The rationale is that the FED is the richest guy at the table and as long as he can be kept in the game the game can continue.

Now there is no guarantee the player (FED) getting 6 cards will win every hand but the probability he will win an inordinate number of hands has increased dramatically versus the players only getting 5 cards.

If the players getting 5 cards know this is happening they would be fools to keep playing a game that is clearly manipulated. So, the key is to do this without the other players knowing this happening.

But, as the players keep playing the game it becomes apparent that something is wrong as one player (FED) begins winning consistently. So, the treasury only gives the FED 6 cards at those times during the evening that it looks like the FED may be losing too much.

The goal being to keep the game going but not let the other players know this is happening.

But of course the other players figure it out and begin to leave the game. The first player to figure it out of course is the professional. As soon as he sees the game is rigged his choice is to call the treasury out for a gun battle but the professional knows there is no upside in this and so he simply takes his money and leaves to find another game somewhere else in the world that isn't rigged.

This leaves behind 3 players now. Two of them have rigged the game and the third one can't figure out why he keeps losing. As the third guy wants to leave the FED and Treasury conveniently let him win a couple of hands to keep him in the game and keep the game going.

But the bottom line is that the there is no way the third player is ever going to win against the FED and Treasury and the question is how long does it take him to figure it out. The goal is to take the third players money without the third player knowing he was just had. When he is broke room is made at the table for the next sucker and the game continues.

But, the professionals are now nowhere to be seen. You see it was the professionals that were the real counterbalance to the Treasury and FED manipulation and when the losses the professional was incurring to the them became greater than what he could gain from the novice player he walks.

That is where we are today in the markets. I hope that made sense.

The real private sector job creating professional wealth is leaving the game. That is the real reason the dollar is falling. The US game is rigged and the professionals are cashing in their chips to play in a game denominated in another currency, gold or euro. They won't play in the Yen denominated game because it is even more corrupt than the dollar denominated game. Many of them will take a break from the game completely by taking their cash and parking it in gold or by buying waterfront property and lying on the beach waiting for the Treasury and FED to realize they over manipulated the markets.

YGM (6/27/02; 07:41:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 79289)
DOWNUNDER....
You're Right!
I'm thin skinned...I'm also worn out from trying to play Gold Advocate for so many years. The Gold Cabals Manip almost broke me thus I fought back for years, the only way I knew how...Well sir, I've outlived my usefulness so I'll just withdraw and let you and others fight the information battles. I now know just enough to set my own course, and the best thing I've learned of late was a simple one line end to posts by a Texan I think. That is to live small. That is what I will now do...I shall lurk and keep my big mouth shut from now on...The soap-box I gladly hand over to you and whomever has hundreds of hrs to ferret info and type.....This keyboard is almost in need of replacement anyways.....Adios......YGM.

canamami (6/27/02; 07:23:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 79288)
A CB must be dumping
I know it's not what we want to recognize, but past experience teaches that some CB is dumping, perhaps as part of the "game" or perhaps based on its good faith assessment of the situation. I suspect it's the "game", as there is no reason for the POG to fall and this is not the time to dump gold.

goldquest (6/27/02; 07:21:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 79287)
PPT
http://members.rogers.com/fallstreet1/plungeprotection/plungeprotection.html
back in business!

Jimbo (6/27/02; 07:10:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 79286)
@da2g and @Belgian

CBSMarketWatch's Peter Brimelow wrote an interesting piece this morning titled "Late rallies rouse suspicions." He points out what we already know by saying, "...the pattern of sudden last-hour buying feeds the suspicions of those who believe the authorities have been systematically intervening in the stock market, trying to manage the bursting of the Great Bubble of the 1990s."

That said, let me play "devil's advocate" regarding your theme that paper gold will always be subject to this type of intervention, and therefore the only way to invest is in physical. Isn't physical subject to the same forces, and aren't these forces manipulating physical using similar techniques? What's to keep the cabal and PPT from mucking around with the price of gold to benefit themselves and ruin the investment experience for average investors like us?

By the way, below are additional snippits from Brimelow's article:

"I can't help but wonder when the Euro was falling out of bed a year ago if some sort of agreement was reached between the central bankers to bring the Euro up and the dollar down in order to reach a parity between the two currencies. Certainly trade balances had grown all out of whack as we saw even with yesterday's trade report. We are now reaching this parity... the dollar is plunging fast and panic selling is overtaking the markets. When fear and pain get too severe as we are seeing now, the central bankers are more likely to take some action to stabilize things. This isn't because they care about how much pain you are suffering, but rather plunging markets become far more unruly to manage and more expensive to stabilize, the more panicky it becomes...We are beginning to feel an ominous threat to the markets (and I believe world markets too) if these critical supports are violated at the September lows. You can be sure the central bankers are very aware of this threat."

And one letter who does post his daily comments immediately - Dow Theory Letter's http://www.dowtheoryletters.com/ Richard Russell - included a long attachment about a leaked Royal Bank of Canada report which appears to be the first financial establishment endorsement of the thesis, long and vigorously argued by Billy Murphy's LeMetropole Caf� http://www.lemetropolecafe.com/ website, that the gold price is being held down to mask gathering financial instability.

Gold's early rally certainly got squashed Wednesday -- paradoxically in view of the weak dollar.

Russell isn't worried -- he expects gold to trade some multiples higher eventually. He's speculated about stock market manipulation in the past. But yesterday, as the leading bearish Dow Theorists at the age of 78, he was savoring what looks like the rout of his younger rivals.

RobotGuy (6/27/02; 07:09:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 79285)
Allow me to dream for a moment,,...aloud :)
Lets put a real positive outlook on what is happeniong currently with the price of gold. Let's suppose there is a large group of high rollers who have gotten together to compress a loaded cannon. GATA members and the like.
We all know that if people across the globe all wanted a bunch of gold simultaneously that the price would go through the roof because the supply is simply not there.
So how do you inspire people to want gold? Give some indication that it is on a huge incline in price.
Here you have it, a group of people with a lot of money, (enough to get the thing rolling and keep it there for a little while) who are pressing down the POG like a massive spring (that's already supercompressed) and preparing to go on a massive buying spree that might trigger mass adhesion to the idea of gold ownership.

Well,... it's possible isn't it? Isn't it?

Cheers!

There's still time,..precious little time.

RobotGuy.

da2g (6/27/02; 06:44:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 79284)
Gold down large again
Gold is down another $4 at present. This whole financial situation seems almost surreal. Even if one were not a subscriber to any manipulation or intervention theory with respect to the financial markets in the past, I don't know how one could come to any other conclusion after the events of the past 48 hours.

On the brighter, more personal side, I have continued to take substantial paper profits and am steadily allocating more of these funds to physical metal. A four dollar open to me in the past, as a heavy paper player, would have been seriously upsetting. Now, I can almost laugh, particularly at how transparent things have become in the financial shenanigan arena. Should paper move up again, I will again take more paper off of the table and buy physicial with the proceeds, however this paper continues to make a smaller and smaller portion of my overall holdings.

How long is it before a critical mass of investors comes to a similar conclusion, and the supply of physical dries up at these prices?

Belgian (6/27/02; 05:14:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 79283)
@ Turkey Hunter post : # 79227
This Reuters story on Gold is a great piece of evidence for the scarcety of Gold ! The main character of the text is a confusing amalgame with that same old purpose of "frightening" , SMALL Gold accumulators away from the Physical Precious ! The analysts in this Reuters story don't question how many times one can sell 30.000 tonnes of Official Gold Reserves, nor give any evidence (statistical) on by how much TOTAL official goldreserves (30.000 tonnes) increase or decline ! These authoritive sounding analysts, don't even bother to mention why goldreserves could be handy (humm) to compensate for eventual (humm) loss in value of the 75% of official dollar-reserves !

And to emphasize their purpose, they title it again halfway the text : *MORE SALES POSSIBLE* as to make it clear as water, what is the real intention of this stupid piece of journalism. Yes, Gold is scarce already and Reuters (and tutti quanti) gives us evidence, again ! A big thank you to all analysts and wise "researchers" ! Thanks for contradicting yourself within the space of 50 lines. Thanks for being so plentyfull and repetitive.
Yes, gentlemen...Germany will hold all its reserve dollars as commemoratives of the once US empire and will manage its goldsales with your help. Switzerland/UK and now Germany profit from the situation to get rid of their worthless Gold and shift it to China / Russia and ME, underdevelopped countries ! The eventual remaining goldreserves will be distributed at discount prices to socially upgrade the oppressed women on this globe. And if interest rates should start to rise, Gold will become completely obsolete and un-necessary. Yes, dear analysts/researchers, the Gold market looks so firm, because of this temporary little war-rattling and Gold is indeed heavy overpriced for that particular reason you mention so clearly. Piece and prosperity is around the corner and Germany has too much Gold for already too long. This has become obsolete for reasons of strong dollar and strong euro fiat, increasingly becoming more valuable as time goes by...Amen !

Never, ever is investigated, why Euroland banks are supposed to sell/shift/exchange, Gold to very specific other states (continents) ? This is strange...the more that John Reade, UBS Warburg, does "hear" from a number of central banks !?

Ohghh...I could go on and on with boring comments on this kind of rubbish...but prefer to stop it here.

Black Blade (6/27/02; 05:05:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 79282)
Dollar Wins Reprieve, Eye on U.S. Stocks
http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/020627/markets_forex_1.html

Snippit:

LONDON (Reuters) - The battered dollar recouped some of the previous day's heavy losses against major currencies on Thursday, boosted by a small recovery for U.S. stocks and wariness that Japan could sell yen for the third day this week. Analysts said data showing rising capital inflows to the euro zone underscored the resurgence of the euro, which nearly hit parity with the dollar on Wednesday, as investors lose faith in U.S. asset markets which have been the greenback's main support. "The recovery in U.S. stocks has brought an element of calm and this has led to some short-covering on the dollar," said Rob Hayward, senior FX strategist at ABN-Amro. "But it's not going to take much to get people to start selling the dollar again."

Black Blade: The USD has been in recovery mode since stocks are such a good buy now � especially on the great results released by WorldCon. Stocks should do really well if an orphanage or two were to burn down. What a goofy mixed up market.

Black Blade (6/27/02; 04:52:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 79281)
Gold Drops
http://www.kitco.com/charts/livegold.html

Doesn't look good right now. Gold is dropping before the NY open now. Market index futures look strong for a positive open - though there is no positive news. Apparently follow through on yesterday's "miracle" recovery. Looks like an "entertaining" day anyway - possible opportunity to buy in cheaper.

- Black Blade

Black Blade (6/27/02; 04:28:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 79280)
WorldCon

I just saw an interview with an (former?) employee of WorldCon. It looks like the same old story is developing here. He discussed that he put half his retirement in company stock. Looks like we are going to see another round of devastated 401K plans just like Enron. "Interesting Times"

- Black Blade

DOWNUNDER (6/27/02; 04:08:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 79279)
@ YGM - - - A REPLY TO YOUR 79263 AND 79273
A reply was expected but you came across as a bit thin skinned looking at your reaction.Like how dare a relatively new poster say anything.Well buddy if I've got anything to say I don't think I need your permission to say it. Just because you're a prolific poster doesn't make you right all the time.My post to you was on topic & just as relavent as yours -at least I thought so anyway.

I don't resile from the comments I made to you in post 79623. Nothing wrong with you being a bit of a stirrer BUT careless comments can be dangerous & that was my point.You were at it a bit later with a post to LOOK OUT re NEM & the $Billion they were borrowing. Well perhaps that money is to retire hedges--who knows? The market hasn't reacted unfavourably so far that's for sure.

No need to regret that your comments made "me" fearful. Thats not what I said.I was already aware of the new mining bill going through in S. Africa & have NO problems with it nor my investment there which happens to be in Drooy.

You also said "I for one am tired of you telling us what is viable comment & what isn't". Thats a bit rich -I've never commented to you before & if I've said anything to anyone else then it hasn't got anything to do with you.I've seen you cut loose on others so please don't try to impress by laying out your credentials.

No need to make this ongoing -I've answered and thats it as far as I'm concerned. Thanks.

Belgian (6/27/02; 03:47:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 79278)
How *Stable* is the system and how *Scarce* is Gold ?
The globe's "financial system" is...*** HUGHE *** ! By hughe, I mean that Trillions are flowing up and down daily/hourly.
More and more Trillions, disproportionately exploding in volume against total amount of goods and services produced.
An unstoppable financial drama with no public statistics. The whole financial system (private + official) is getting more and more integrated...entangled...inter-dependant ! That is what makes that system so falsely confident, it can handle any calamity of whatever scale/magnitude ! This totally misplaced complacency, will damage a big part of this financial system, severely. Post Worldcom, the assesment of the damage is quickly done and absolutely minimized, as usual. The complete financial system finds support into its "diversification" myth. They are "ALL" into the good and into the bad parts of the game. They laugh and cry all together at the same time. They all hold the growing pile of hot potatos together. They = all participants (big or small) within that hughe financial, integrating, system.

The above described "system" of apparent, inter-related, strength is at the same time the biggest weakness of the whole financial system as it is/evolves, at present. Call it the anti thesis of Darwinism : not only the fittest but "all", will/must/can, survive. Now, guess why there are no dinosours anymore and one might understand that any financial NWO (new world order) will not survive the teeth of time.

It were Jimbo #79225 / Market Talk #79221 / and Turkey Hunter #79227 post's wich inspired this one (thanks).
Yes, there are many, many more Worldcoms and analog out there ! And "they" know it ! Yes, the whole financial system MUST (and will) cover up and increasing amount of rot / fraud and artificiality. Yes, there is an increasing amount of frustration in store. And finally, Yes it can go on as long as *any* paper remains holy and accepted as settlement for real goods and services by all monopoly-game players. All paper, be it fiat, stocks, bonds, are OVERVALUED to an unbelievable strength. Only the very, very BIG lies are to be believed. And does anyone here still needs additional evidence for how BIG those lies, really are ? Of course not ! It is only the liers themselves who will soon remain the last ones to believe their own lies.

But, as time goes by, people, ordinarry or sophisticated, will *intuitively* realize how *** SCARCE *** that 5.000 years old barbaric relic is ! At its simpliest, 60.000 tonnes of non jewelry aboveground Gold stands against or in the midst of that HUGHE dis-integrating financial colossus.
Trillions of endangered US$, rotting next to that infinitesimal little stash of 60.000 tonnes (1/2 trillion $)of Precious Valuable !!! The more this fine picture must be blured (in anyway possible)...the closer we get to the final and dangerous reckoning. One doesn't need to know how much a Trillion really is. It suffice to compare X-trillions of ever-lost debts against 1/2 trillion worth of 60.000 tonnes of (investment) Gold. Simple isn't it ? Why do you think Turkey Hunter's post on the WA has to pop up with the regularity of a clock ? Get those 60.000 tonnes of Gold out of sight of the public. Better even, it isn't 60.000 tonnes...it is almost zero gram available anymore !

Defaults, stockmarket declines and rising IRs, do destroy "PERMANENTLY" trillions of that pile of rotting paper at a certain speed, proportionate, to the creation of new rotting paper. Paper comes and paper goes. As dinosours lived and died. And up until now, nobody really knows why dinosours are no more !

All time Highs in stockmarkets, all time lows in interest rates, 50 years without worldwars and a relative high in global prosperity is (soon was) a dinosours paradise !
Dear reader, please do realize how *frightening scarce* the available Gold is out there ! It "IS" the main reason "WHY" they don't wants us to realize, "WHAT" is going on !!!
Please, do yourself a favor and take some time to reflect fundamentally on this given. I did the same and therefore evolved into a Gold Advocate. How many more Enrons or Worldcoms or zero interest rates do you need to understand
that any investment in Gold, at present, is purely a matter of honest and honarable, selfdefense against a financial system that is prisonor of itself ? No this is not an Investment advise from a Belgian lilliputan, but a modest contribution/payment to CPM and its fine posters. Thanks.

steady (6/27/02; 03:33:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 79277)
Worldwide Web Of Debt Unravels
http://www.telegraph.co.uk
snipet

The world's banks are owed $2.65 billion in outstanding loans by WorldCom, the beleaguered US telecoms company, which is believed to have accumulated further debts of around $30 billion in bonds and commercial paper.

Analysts believe that Industrial Bank of Japan, now known as Mizuho International, Mellon Bank, Bank of America and Royal Bank of Canada are among the larger lenders to WorldCom, although the list is likely to include 60 of the world's biggest banks.

JP Morgan Chase and Citigroup, which recently helped WorldCom to secure $1.5 billion in additional funding, are viewed as the largest counterparts, although insiders claimed this was not the case.

Black Blade (6/27/02; 03:09:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 79276)
Gold Fields gives new mining bill thumbs up
http://www.businessreport.co.za/html/busrep/br_frame_decider.php?click_id=345&art_id=ct20020626205409985N250736&set_id=60

Snippit:

Johannesburg - The new Minerals and Petroleum Resources Development Bill would not have an adverse effect on the gold mining industry, Gold Fields, the country's second-largest gold producer, said yesterday. "Gold Fields is in support of the principles underlying the bill, particularly as it relates to South Africa in this stage of its transition," the company said in response to the passing of the new mining bill in parliament. Platinum mining is expected to be the hardest hit by the new legislation and its "use it or lose it" mantra.

Black Blade: We shall see how this plays out. Apparently there is no significant problem as far as existing mines are concerned. However, I don't necessarily trust government (any government).

Topaz (6/27/02; 02:14:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 79275)
comment
WoW! How good ARE these Guys - even the staunchest Goldbug has to be impressed with the US markets performance Y'day. Should be plain sailing back to 10K dow from here wot?
It appears the lively Bond Mkt is the prime driver of the Flight to Quality back into Stocks - as Yields drop, Stocks become more attractive...and so it goes. What a envious position the $US dollar finds itself in this am - if only you can overcome the confidence thing.
What is needed, right now, is for Mr Bush to take a firm stand for the little guy and come down heavily on ALL market miscreants, maybe declare a 4wk amnesty for fessups, from then on WHAMMO!...to the Ovens with them! No legal getout, Nothing!
AG could also have helped more with an easing...but that wasn't to be....yet!
I feel GWB can Champion the American revival from here...will he??

YGM (6/27/02; 00:22:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 79274)
Waverider....
Argentina....
Hard to imagine that it could and probably will get worse...What a Dark Vision if the rest of the Latino Countries follow the spiral downhill....Then when we wonder if it can happen here....as the man said...Live Small...And Keep Your Powder Dry....YGM.

YGM (6/27/02; 00:13:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 79273)
DOWNUNDER......
A Fact About Knowing Risk In Paper (Stocks)
I fully understand owning SA paper and most other kinds, and just because I now advocate Physical Gold doen't mean I take issue with anyone trying to make a buck however they see fit. I turned 15K into 1.2 Mill in 4 yrs with penny Gold and Diamond stocks. Along came David Walsh and Bre-X and Drill bit Diamonds in the core sample of one of my big winners in the Diamond play, and before the fan stopped flinging the doo I lost half of it...I may have to go back for another try myself again one day....I personally think Drooy a great company and it's made mega bucks for some good friends of mine.....YGM.

ViewYesterday's Discussion.

Permission to reprint is hereby granted where the USAGOLD name is cited along with our web address, mailing address and phone number. For electronic reproductions, citing the post heading and the http://www.usagold.com/cpmforum/ website address as the source is sufficient.

usagold logo
P.O. Box 460009
Denver, Colorado 80246-0009

1-800-869-5115 (US)
00-800-8720-8720 (EU)

303-399-6759 (Fax)

admin@usagold.com

Office Hours
6:00am - 5:00pm
(U.S. Mountain Time)
Monday - Friday

American Numismatic Association
Member since 1975

Industry Council for Tangible Assets

USAGOLD Centennial Precious Metals is a BBB Accredited Business. Click for the BBB Business Review of this Gold, Silver & Platinum Dealers in Denver CO

Zero Complaints

Wednesday May 23
website support: sitemaster@usagold.com
Site Map - Privacy- Disclaimer
The USAGOLD logo and stylized gold coin pile are trademarks of Michael J. Kosares.
© 1997-2012 Michael J. Kosares / USAGOLD All Rights Reserved