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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 6/27/2001 All times are U.S. Mountain Time (Yesterday's Discussion.) ORO (06/27/01; 23:49:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 57046) Stranger - Marty Mayer and the Historical Fed The WSJ story, part of a PR on behalf of Mayer's new book "The FED", sheds some light on the difference between central banks of yore and of today, particularly the Fed of today vs. the Fed of yesteryear.The original central bank structure was a reserve sharing for common note (and account) backing within a country. The notes were demand notes, and the purpose of the reserve sharing arrangement was in order to remove competition within the country for the gold reserves and among the competing notes issued previously by individual banks. Free of competition on note quality and for reserves, the banks had only to consider credit quality and market share in their lending, and reserve ratios of demand notes and accounts were now solely the responsibility of the central bank. Furthermore, the central bank removed the major source of competition in the market segment where banks had borrowed; commercial paper. In this area, and later in bank deposit and lending rates, central bank decisions routinely prevented competition on credit quality, and later on returns to depositors and money market lenders to banks, and then proceeded to cram government debt into the banking system with the government telling the central bank what interest rate it would pay. The enormous expansion of government borrowing during WWII dictated that the central bank buy as much government debt as would not be absorbed by the market at the interest rates the government dictated, and thus issue as much currency as was needed to perform these purchases. The funds pushed by the CB into the "fixed income" market dictated the range of interest rates on private market debt. The Fed dictated deposit rates below the government paper rates, and private lending rates above the government paper rates. All was structured to eliminate government's payment of market rates on its obligations. The low interest rates on deposits pushed many to buy savings bonds and to start loading up on extra provisions for the home, what is essentially hoarding of physical goods, because keeping resources in a bank or in bonds or stocks was unrewarding due to the negative real return. The low interest rates on deposits also pushed people to buy commercial debt and to invest overseas, bringing about an investment boom in the 50s and 60s in production of consumer goods. Not being allowed to invest at their preferred real rate of return, the public increasingly chose not to invest at all, but to accumulate goods. With borrowing costs artificially lowered and with apparent demand rising, industries invested heavily, bringing down rates of return on business opportunities remaining. When companies found no further avenues for large scale investment, they simply started accumulating goods in both pre and post manufacturing inventory rather than hold onto accounts paying distorted low interest rates. Bank margins shrank from 2-3% before, to 1-1.5% in the 60s as low rates had forced them into consecutively poorer quality credits.Thus were sown the seeds of the price inflation of the late 60s and the 70s. The Fed's actions were later restricted due to low bank profitability they caused and the danger this imposed on the banking system, and the credit inflation this induced. Thus money markets were reopened in 1970, allowing banks to start competing for borrowings. Later, savings and loans were permitted to borrow (first)and lend (much later) at market rates, as opposed to the artificial low rates forced upon them before. Government debt was still being supported by Fed open market activities outbidding all buyers, but funds pushed into the market this way just chased goods and drove them into commercial and private hoards and inventories. This situation was not unique to the US, as the various European nations and many others followed the same prescriptions for the same reasons as commercial profitability fell due to prior over-investment in the wrong fields, while the areas needing substantial investment - such as basic materials and particularly energy, did not obtain the requisite investment (this as a result of the threat of costs imposed by restrictive regulation by the newly created EPA in the US), and by threat of government confiscation in Europe. The US commercial paper market and the virtually unregulated reserves and capital ratios have forced banks to compete on their borrowing rates, their lending rates, and do so in parallel to a now burgeoning money (commercial paper) and bond markets. Bank profit margins grew back to 3% and even above, but their market share in the debt market had gone from 60-80% in the prior decades, to 20%. Competing with money market funds, the banks were forced to lower transaction costs and offer similar rates on their own accounts. Many of the distorting elements of the Fed's actions were removed over time, bringing the financial structure in the US closer to that of the pre central banking period than it was even in the days of the gold exchange standard. However, the key problems of reserve sharing and non-market interbank lending rates remain, as is the market distortion caused by the Fed having a policy as to how much "money" there should be - which is currently "enough to guarantee bank transaction clearing".Nevertheless, there remains two sources of market distortion outside the Fed's reach; FDIC, which provides a moral hazard to depositors, allowing them to ignore bank credit quality, and the GSE's which carry a government guarantee of their commercial paper, thus again introducing moral hazard to the financial markets. With this guarantee, the GSEs grew tremendously, and are now similar in scale to banks, with an equal size capital base, a similar scale of commercial paper issues in the money markets, and their securitized paper on the scale of bank's time deposits and outstanding loans.Three more distorting mechanisms of size are still in play in the US financial markets: The tax rate differential between dividends and capital gains, which induces higher stock prices and raises corporate borrowings, deferred taxation on pension, insurance and retirement accounts and the deductibility of contributions vs. investments held in ordinary accounts, and the deduction for mortgage interest which induces excessive mortgage debt, and higher real estate prices.Another distorting mechanism is introduced by interaction with foreign central banks, particularly that of Japan, and to some extent that of China, where the decades of early Fed style errors created deep structural distortions in the economy, from the point of not allowing banks to charge different rates for different credit quality to the point of allowing recognition of capital gains on inflated real estate and stock during the 80s, to the additional error of disallowing large scale bank and commercial bankruptcies, which allowed failed managements to retain control of productive assets. As a case in point as to the incapacities of the Japanese managements, Barron's reported that corporate insiders routinely under-perform foreign investors on the Japanese stock markets despite the insiders being the best informed and the foreign investors the least informed. Coming out of this prolonged crisis, Japan's central bank has inflated the whole of the international banking and debt securities markets, inducing consecutive bubbles in Asia, Europe and the US while inflating its balance sheet with US treasuries. The low yen lending rates allowed borrowers to borrow from Japanese banks and investors in dollars at below market rates, making such banks as Nomura into highly active participants in the US debt securities markets. The yen based investments were exchanged into dollars and hedged with yen exchange rate options issued mostly by Japanese institutions. Whether these were sold at market rates or not, is unknown, but I suspect that they were sold at below market rates. It should also be noted that in Europe, where bank dominance of the financial marketplace in lending and asset holdings was retained, indicates that the central banks have been dictating interest rates at below market rates and governments have been slow to allow development of the bond and money (commercial paper) markets. With an earlier baby boom and a much constrained "echo" boom and without substantial immigration into Europe save Britain, investment has been slow, and much of it has come from financial flows induced in the international market by the Japanese rate undercutting. With no substantial debt culture, extremely high taxes on consumer goods and some on inventory, and no extension of investment within Europe, the investment funds have flown out of it nearly as fast as out of Japan rather than be churned into the goods markets because investment returns were better outside these countries and sufficiently high in order to be more attractive than the acceleration of the rate of real goods accumulation. The continued dominance of banks in EU markets and the same in Japan, are signs of economic distortion. The low EU and Japanese interest rates are the result of bad returns there. The relatively open market for monetary flows allowed the EU and Japanese investors to put their resources elsewhere rather than hold them in their home countries, where rather than holding them they would have dumped euro and yen in favor of hoarding goods (and gold). The past errors (intentional or not) of the Fed have been repeated ad nauseum throughout Europe and Japan. Doubtless the Fed has performed further errors, as being a central bank, and therefore a central planner, they must. However, the EU and Japan have done much worse, having repeated many of the old errors, and probably out of the same motives.FOA, re the snip at US economic leaders being as socialist as their EU counterparts, I agree that they are socialist to some extent, but will also state that they are much less so than Europe. The steel companies and steel workers unions face domestic non-union mini-mills, which are still doing well enough, on top of overbuilt and over-inventoried Asian, Latin, and Japanese producers who are dumping their products and finalizing product in process because the need to generate the funds for survival trumps any other consideration. They sell at a loss, but the funds put in are gone, while what they have in hand is steel. The Bushies understand this well enough, but the steel companies and unions might find friends among the Democrats in the Senate, which brought on the Bush people's favored delay tactic: the "investigation".For some facts, steel production capacity in the US is at 30% above its low point of 1995. But utilization is down to 74% from the low 90s.In Europe, France and Germany have a general capacity utilization of 86%-88% and 8% unemployment (down from over 10% before, but rising), while the less socialist countries like Austria and Ireland have 75-80% utilization and 4% unemployment. While that might seem to indicate to some that the large EU center had not over-invested, it also means that investment is high in the better managed countries, and unemployment is low because of that higher investment rate and that capacity utilization is lower for the same reason.While further growth in the less socialist countries is possible without straining existing capacity, the central countries must see price inflation along with growth, since capacity is near the point of constraint.To end this comparison, we must also view the attempts of EU representatives to squelch the internet by assignment of liabilities to carriers for web content they can't control. The complain that the internet is "out of control". This means that the internet is largely free of political control, which is what they are complaining about. They protest about "hate speech" which, as indicated by the EU suit against Bernard Connolly, the former high EU bureaucrat who wrote "The Rotten Heart of Europe : The Dirty War for Europe's Money ", is defined by them as anything that constitutes a criticism of them; which in court they claimed was "blasphemy". Black Blade (06/27/01; 23:48:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 57045) Asian Markets in Free Fall http://quote.yahoo.com/m2?u Asian markets are hit hard tonight. They apparently aren't amused by the FED rate cut. Could they be pullin out of US based investments as a result? If so, I say very "Interesting."- Black BladeGolden Dreams All! Black Blade (06/27/01; 23:23:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 57044) Cheaper electricity won't trim bills Rate increase to pay off big state debts takes effect next month http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/06/27/MN204070.DTL&type=news Snippit:A rate increase passed last month will begin showing up on electricity bills next month to pay off billions of dollars in debt that the state has incurred buying power on the spot market. And new long-term energy contracts may lock California into paying higher-than-market rates for future electricity. The only bright spot for ratepayers is that consumer prices for natural gas, which went through the roof last winter, are at last back to reasonable levels.Black Blade: Natural Gas prices are only temporarily lower due to milder temperatures, and temporary increased water flows at hydroelectric power generators because of rapid snowmelt runoff from the high country. However, residents are locked in at higher long-term energy contracts. Ooops! Also, NG supply will be drawn off to the other Western states this fall and winter. Black Blade (06/27/01; 23:05:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 57043) Asia Getting Very Red http://quote.yahoo.com/m2?u Asian Markets are getting hammered. Especially the Nikkei and Hang Seng. Some very unhappy investors overseas tonight. Black Blade (06/27/01; 22:58:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 57042) Big 3 economies fret over rising recession risks http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/businessnews/article/0,2669,ART-52662,FF.html Snippit:So far it's only a cloud on the economic horizon, but for the first time in years, a global recession looms as a real possibility. The cloud hangs over the Federal Reserve, which is expected to announce Wednesday its sixth interest rate cut this year. Another big cut would show that policymakers still feel uncertain about the prospects for economic recovery in the U.S., despite several upbeat economic reports released Tuesday.The same cloud looms over Europe, where a leading economic institute on Tuesday slashed projected growth rates for Germany, even as the European Central Bank in Frankfurt prepared for a critical meeting on rate policy next month.And that cloud also darkens Tokyo, where the Japanese government on Tuesday approved another economic restructuring plan aimed at jump-starting an economy that flamed out a decade ago.Black Blade: A Triple Bagger? If all the world's economies tank in unison, then we could see an economic disaster that would rival the Great Depression. A bit of PM (gold and silver) insurance seems to be in order. The question is open to debate - inflation, stagflation, or depression. Whatever scenario, PMs have historically done well. Now with Munky's Barrick helping to push down Gold prices about -$7.20 in less than 24 hours, we can acquire more at bargain basement prices. Turnaround (06/27/01; 22:52:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 57041) TG - crips or bloods? Trail Guide (6/27/01; 05:22:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 56957)ECB's Duisenberg says likely to step down before term ends!<http://www.usagold.com/DailyQuotes.html>"This item of news only confirms part of Another's letter. Duisenberg was the point man in engineering the initial insertion of Euros into use. "A good choice of words, "point man" and "insertion". These are terms of war, in this case a currency war waged by the would-be ruling class against the 'sheeple'. "A delicate action that required the exchange rates we saw during this period. "Yes, of course. Any swindle, most particulary a fiat-currency pyramid scheme, is a very delicate operation. The con artists must move very carefully so as not to give a tell that makes the mark light a rag.For example, the unredeemable FRN's now in circulation required a half-century (1913-1963) of single-minded effort on the part of the central bankstas to come to their full fruition."We are now leaving this period and with the 2001 distribution of actual notes, the Euro will be ready to advance. This era will require a different character in their ECB position of leadership."What sort of character do you think this might be? Perhaps an Al Capone type or maybe more of a Chairman Mao?Trail Guide (6/27/01; 05:48:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 56959)Dithering over euro will harm London, says Mayor"It is not my position to endorse what "should" be done in order to build a better world. I do offer a rebuttal as to why past "economic" reasoning is being side tracked to travel this different path. In doing this I do "discount" the logic many Western hard money advocates use. I do this to show the "why", not the morality of it all. "Duly noted. I do enjoy and appreciate very much your past posts and efforts in this regard. Black Blade (06/27/01; 22:41:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 57040) Bank watches energy prices http://www.theprovince.com/newsite/business/5013698.html Snippit:EDMONTON -- High energy prices have been driving up inflation, and inflation is something the Bank of Canada must guard against as the fragile economy tries to regain strength, bank chief David Dodge told the Edmonton Chamber of Commerce yesterday. The central bank's governor continued to predict growth could reach as high as three per cent this year as the economy begins to pull out of the slowdown spilling over from the U.S. But inflation driven by high crude oil and natural gas costs is a serious concern that the bank must be vigilant to guard against, Dodge said. "Even though prices of crude oil and natural gas have eased from recent peaks, the bank will need to stay alert to any signs of energy costs spilling over into other consumer prices and thus, putting upward pressure on the trend of inflation." Black Blade: haven't they heard of the "Core-Rate?" When calculating inflation, just ignore rising food and energy costs and pretend that they don't exist. Hey, it works for AG, and the US Government doesn't have to worry about COLA increases for the SS recipients. Black Blade (06/27/01; 22:27:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 57039) Plains Tribes Seek Fund for Oil, Gas http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010626/us/indians_budget_1.html Snippit:WASHINGTON (AP) - Indian leaders want Congress to spend more money on roads, schools and housing for poverty-stricken reservations, but some Great Plains tribes are also looking for federal money to lure oil and gas companies. Exploiting the natural resources of their land is key to the long-term fiscal health of tribes that don't operate casinos, Indian leaders said Tuesday in testimony to the Senate Indian Affairs Committee. As much as 20 percent of the nation's oil and gas reserves lie untapped on Indian reservations, said Tex Hall, chairman of North Dakota's Mandan, Hidatsa and Arikara Nation, known as the Three Affiliated Tribes. Hall testified that focusing on oil and gas drilling, for example, will allow Indians to build their economies and stop asking Congress for help. ``Our tribal people don't want a welfare check. We want a paycheck,'' Hall said.Black Blade: What? You mean we didn't steal all the valuable land? How'd that happen? Seriously, it would appear to be more productive than building more casinos and "Smoke shops." Many of the Reservations are off the beaten path and conditions in some areas are deplorable. Who knows, it may lead to greater independence. Unfortunately, from my own personal experience on the Western Reservations, many Tribal Governments (Councils) add a whole new meaning to the terms "Gridlock" and "bureaucracy." megatron (06/27/01; 22:22:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 57038) Currencies and PM's There is a site called OANDA(not going to post the link. don't wanna get canned). You can set up two currencies against each other OR against gold/silver/platinum. It is an utterly facinating graph of where currencies are going in the long term. Check it out. (if I get canned, it was nice being here ;*) Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (06/27/01; 22:17:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 57037) China Radio International No apparent difference in their news than our big three media. WTO, Federal Reserve rates, AIDS, Drug Addicts, Tibetan antelope poaching/trade. Hmmmm. Rockgrabber (06/27/01; 22:16:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 57036) How are the Dollars going to make it home? The U.S. acounts for 20% of the worlds GDP. The U.S. dollar somehow manages to acount for 80% of currency tranactions (Ex. Europe buys Oil from Mid-East only to pay in U.S. dollars). World Central Banks hold 60% of their reserves as U.S. dollars. OK, how are all these dollars going to end up coming back here to the U.S.?? DOES gold just vacuum all these excess dollars up or something? Do they just disapear when they are no longer needed. Or is this what comes back to us as Super Inflation? If that being the case. Does the stock market actually somehow recover here and actually go to new highs? Max Rabbitz (06/27/01; 22:15:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 57035) Somewhat OT: Aids Response Thank you ET, I am fine but getting ready to hit the sack. I am familiar with Dr. Duesberg. You and RC are quite correct in your facts. It is in their interpretation that I would differ. The following is my understanding of how the biological world works. It is expected that there are people who have antibodies to the Aids virus yet are healthy. This occurs in allmost all diseases caused by a microbe. Some people naturtally have resistance, perhaps from a tissue type not suitable to the virus. Humans are genetically diverse, as are all species. This is why tissue matches in organ transplants must be matched precisely. Researchers look for those people with natural resistance to determine the cause. Tissue type may be involved with natural Aids resistance.Not everyone exposed to polio, or tuberculosis comes down with the disease. But their immune systems record the battle that was fought and won. At one time long ago perhaps 99% of our ancestors were wiped out by the common cold. We, the descendants of the survivors now get not much more than the sniffles, and the tell tale antibodies in the blood. It is true that the protease inhibitor cocktails may have very bad long term effects. At one time AZT was used extensively. It also had toxic side effects but very modest results. Yet I believe studies showed those who received it did live longer than those without it. Most medicines have side effects. Even aspirin can cause stomach problems. Protease inhibitors are powerful and potentially very dangerous. I have heard of growth developing on the back. Rather grotesque growths that distort. But this sort of side effect is to be expected. It is not just virus proteins that must be modified by proteases before becoming active.....in humans too. Proteases are an important factor in human development and growth. One of the biggest mysteries in biology is development of form and structure and what regulates it. Years from now, if we still exist in a civilized form, some of these mysteries will be resolved......only to reveal new mysteries. In the meantime......South African miners do not have the information or education to debate these issues and rely on others to advise them. If there is any reason to doubt the cause of the affliction it would be prudent in the interim to take all due precautions until these issues are resolved. Gold miners can not afford protease inhibitors and are taking no drugs at all from what I understand. Mining companies are dispensing free condoms. With all due respect, at the very least, these miners and others should be advised to use them, IMHO. P.S. Wasn't it special how they had to kill gold today starting just before Allan's (two l's) dissappointing rate cut. If only Herr Duisenberg would be more cooperative and drop his rates too. G'night, Max Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (06/27/01; 22:01:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 57034) goldfan Food as a barometer of strength. Please do not underestimate the value of being a net exporter of food. When the stomach growls, food is WEALTH! True the European subsidies to farmers are more political than anything else, yet internal perishable food production is still vital. Too often are modern lives seemingly disconnect us from the true necessities of life. ET (06/27/01; 21:59:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 57033) SLaTT Hey SLaTT - in a nutshell, you could say the "treatment" is what has done most people in. Hemophiliacs, with their need for transfusions could easily "contract" the HIV virus as could intravenous drug users that shared needles. The gist is that no connection has ever been proven between the contraction of the HIV virus resulting in the body's response in creating antibodies, and the onset of the AIDS syndrome which has various definitions as needed.Because of the faulty connection between a virus of no real consequence and a disease syndrome of unknown origin, people have been "treated" for a dubious disorder. The treatment consists of administering poison over a long period of time, thus killing the patient, "proving" they died of AIDS. If the hemophiliacs you referenced were given the "treatment", then it isn't surprising they died. Magic Johnson took the "AIDS cocktail" for two weeks and was convinced to give it up and I find it no surprise he is alive and well today. The entire thing is a most sordid hoax. US_Army(RET) (06/27/01; 21:53:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 57032) "Bull Riding" vs. Owning Gold… JCTex (06/27/01; 21:11:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 57024/57028 JCTex…You write re: "Bull Riding" vs. Owning Gold…Two problems with it: there ain't no instruction books, and there ain't but one way off. The exit is a sonofa*****, either way. How is this like gold? Lotta eggs gonna busted before we get to the exit, and that is going to be a sonofa*****, too.If I understand 1/3 of what FOA & ORO are saying, I suspect that both of them are right, and while that may be good for the price of gold, the exit is going to hurt almost as bad as the ride.------------------Well said! You really understand!We all "live" for the ride…its highs and lows…and with all the corresponding "pain" along the way --- but the "ride" is what it is all about.--- There is no, and never will be, a really "good" exit. --- Unless one just considers still being able to breath when it is all over a "success"---and even that may be debatable under certain circumstances.SLDPS...ans. No...new to forum...Retired after 20 yrs AD in ME right after Gulf War ('92)...been back numerous time since, including living in Cairo for couple of years... Thanks for info on "Stampede"...whole family looking forward to it...starting "wander" in that direction in AM --- very "long" drive ahead...will spend week in Banff just prior...Regards..SLD Black Blade (06/27/01; 21:51:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 57031) California Gov. claims a victory in power crisis http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010627/n27182023.html Snippit:SAN FRANCISCO, June 27 (Reuters) - Governor Gray Davis flipped the switch on Wednesday at the first big power plant to come on line in California in 13 years, claiming a landmark victory in the state's ongoing struggle to keep the lights on. ``Today marks the beginning of the end of California's energy shortage,'' Davis told those gathered near Bakersfield for the opening of the 320 megawatt natural gas-fired plant.Black Blade: It all depends on whether the NG providers are willing to continue to do business in the state. Recently the state banned drilling for natural gas and oil in many of the most probable hydrocarbon targets. Even if rolling blackouts are somehow avoided this summer, the higher energy costs will continue to take a toll on California business, and those costs will be passed on to the consumer, resulting in inflationary pressures. Check Mate! JMB (06/27/01; 21:39:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 57030) SHIFTY I caught "The Factor" Shifty. Bill and Jack were ragging on Al. Bill was closing out the session and Jack blurted out two things: 1. Al should target commodities and gold....get the prices up. 2. ORO and FOA should patch things up.....almost forgot #3. Jman is cool and MK should put him on probation. SHIFTY, I was in the shower when this was broadcast so I'm not real sure about #1. Hope this helps. goldfan (06/27/01; 21:32:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 57029) Oil/Gold/Euros/USD Oil/Gold/Euros/USDConcerning oil, gold, Euros and Dollars, someone recently posted an enthusiastic note by Another which I have decoded to mean that if one is holding 15% of one's Euro cash as gold, then, when the USD crashes, and gold goes to say 10X its purchasing power in today's dollars, one's Euro cash will buy a lot more dollars than it formerly would. If they want it, or can use it. Obviously, the ECB will have access to a lot more US$ to play with after the crash. How much more? Here's my take. Today one Euro buys about 0.85 USD. 15% of this is backed by ECB gold. Suppose gold purchasing power in USD increases 10X after the crash. 0.85X0.85 of today's Euro value is unaffected. 0.15X0.85 increases 10X. The resulting Euro value in USD is .85x.85 + .15X8.50 = $2.00 US. So the Euro will now buy $2.00 US worth of goods and services from the US. So what? Becomes a lot easier for Europeans to shop in America, much less easy for Americans to buy from Europe. So the Europeans can get to enjoy having their manufacturing go overseas for a change. I can't see how it does anything for European markets in the rest of the world. Why should the Arabs states decide to take fiat Euros for oil the way they have taken fiat US dollars? They haven't demonstrated any ability to invest and grow the $ they've earned in the past, mostly squandered them on expensive toys, armaments, and bad investments. They are not protected from a crash in the dollar, except through whatever gold they've acquired. They haven't demonstrated the cultural ability to spend fiat money so as to guarantee the long term economic stability, and health and ability of their people. Which governments have? Surely this experience has taught the Arabs to be wary of accepting any fiat for their oil. So they will now ask for a much higher percentage of gold. This will lower everybody's, including Europe's, access to Arab oil. After the crash, surely the rest of the world will be wary of accepting any fiat, as a reserve, be wary of any scheme to concoct another "dominating" currency that everybody has to impoverish themselves to acquire. Hard to see how all this benefits Europe that much more than the USA. Then, there is the question of the outrageous dysfunctions and disparities among the various European nations. They give far too much value and subsidy to the basically simpleminded process of farming. They have swallowed an indigestible lump in the dysfunctional culture of East Germany. They are intent on trying to ingest many more such, some of whom would much rather murder their neighbours than eat. The whole European enterprise to me is like a railroad which keeps adding extra, overloaded cars to the train, insists on patchwork repairs to frequent breakdowns in its out of date engine, and its frequently collapsing overloaded rail lines and bridges. There will be no profit 'til the train arrives and delivers the goods, which probably will never happen.IMNSHOFWIWGoldfan JCTex (06/27/01; 21:27:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 57028) US_Army(RET) Been meaning to ask you: did you used to post here until you got an assignment to the Mideast in '98 or '99??Calgary is one heck of a rodeo! 30-years ago, the clown had an African lion that was the best bull rider in the rodeo.......you should see those bulls pitch when a lion "saddles up." KarenSue (06/27/01; 21:23:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 57027) (No Subject) Test Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (06/27/01; 21:22:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 57026) ET About AIDS I am intrigued. What caused the hemophiliac deaths attributed to the HIV tainted blood products of the early to mid 1980s? The HIV screening is credited with this reversal. What gives? Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (06/27/01; 21:13:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 57025) Shifty That is odd. The time to take the shower is after viewing "The Factor"! (Sorry, I didn't see it. Kemp has always struck me as a eager, professional bench warmer, with enough name recognition to seemingly worm his way into the batting box when first string falters.) JCTex (06/27/01; 21:11:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 57024) US_Army(RET) (6/27/01; 10:25:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 56981) Somewhere around 337 years ago, I thought I was a bull rider. Right before I got on my first one, I asked a cowboy what it was like to ride one: he said it was like breaking an egg on top of a basketball, and then dribbling it down the court. He was right.Two problems with it: there ain't no instruction books, and there ain't but one way off. The exit is a sonofa*****, either way. How is this like gold? Lotta eggs gonna busted before we get to the exit, and that is going to be a sonofa*****, too.If I understand 1/3 of what FOA & ORO are saying, I suspect that both of them are right, and while that may be good for the price of gold, the exit is going to hurt almost as bad as the ride. ET (06/27/01; 21:02:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 57023) Max, USAGOLD http://www.duesberg.com Hey Max - how ya doin? The AIDS thing has been debunked. Go to the above link for further details. It turns out AIDS is not caused by a virus at all. People with the HIV antibodies are no more at risk of disease than anyone else. Although not proven, it would appear the AIDS syndrome is nothing more than a breakdown of the immune system, caused by longterm hard drug use. The whole thing seems a concoction of the microbiologists of the world looking for work. Since polio was cured, it's been slim pickins for this bunch and government has ridden to their rescue. Dr. Peter Duesberg, almost single-handedly, has brought the light of truth to this preposterous situation. Sierra is right, Powell should and I'm sure does know better.Hey MK - how ya doin? I sure hope you and Journeyman can find some common ground. I'm sure he meant no harm. SHIFTY (06/27/01; 20:59:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 57022) Jack Kemp on GOLD O'Reilly Did anyone see Jack Kemp tonight on The Factor with Bill O'Reilly? I was in the shower and missed it. My wife told me Kemp said something about Gold $ being to low.$hifty Trail Guide (06/27/01; 20:50:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 57021) note Hello to Max Rabbitz,I'll reply later (smile)Thanks allTrailGuide Trail Guide (06/27/01; 20:48:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 57020) Reply Hello ORO,You write,-------ORO (6/27/01; 08:57:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 56969)FOA - criticism The withheld posts in question are attacks on positions. However, the extent of the criticism and its its intensity may appear to the reader to turn an attack on positions to an attack on their holder.Again, do you wish for such a set of criticisms of your statements on matters of economic principles, monetary history, and economic significance of portfolio allocations to be aired on this forum, even if these criticisms are likely to be interpreted by a casual reader as attacking your online persona?-----------=====================A direct reply to: ------do you wish for such a set of criticisms ---------even if these criticisms are likely to be interpreted by a casual reader as attacking your online persona------No. You, ORO, are above that and always have been. I will not engage a discussion with someone who usually requires me to rise up to their level and then changes the attire. Restructure your criticisms into logical reasoning that will stand the test. If I know where my week points are (and they do exist) you, ORO, do also.I'll stop for today.Thank youTrailGuide Trail Guide (06/27/01; 20:19:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 57019) Comment Hello Leigh, Tree in the Forest,GoldFields (gold) be taken out like HM? I don't think so. However, to place my view in context; I own some goldfields as a small percentage of total physical gold wealth. I also own it with little consideration of it's trading value now. If the shares went to $100 or $.10 I would not consider selling it. They remain a lifetime holding,,,,, (burned for my duration). The logic in my allocation is to gain the eventual value it would carry after physical gold has been revalued by market forces. A free market, outside and unattached to the banking, money, credit world. That would take the metal far beyond anything we consider normal,,,,, and keep it there for decades. After South African places considerable new taxes on this gain, Goldfield's operation would still turn out a very good long term dividend over the life of it's reserves. But nothing close to the projections many gold Bugs would place on these shares if they thought such prices could materialize.My reasoning employs a return on this risk that is unacceptable to most,,,,, if they understood the dynamics of the process. You see, those shares may not show any market value in the heat of our paper gold market being torn apart. Indeed, they may not trade for a year or so. Only to trade once again after physical gold trading is fully reestablished at a hugely higher level. You see, there may not be a point to cheaply reenter after the fact. This is the main reason why I picked a company so richly endowed.On this political ground I base my reasoning. South Africa will not allow GoldField's production to be taken over to support the bankers behind Anglo (or any other). If Anglo (like barrick) is forced to deliver $10,000++ / oz gold into a $300+ hedge book, they would mostly fail and pay little taxes. Considering that inflation, in general will force production cost above $1,000/oz, the clean gold reserves of GoldField makes it a political keepsake. The only owners that will benefit from the mine share game are the ones that can own the company thru thick and thin,,,,, and even then own it solely for the dividends it will produce. Such is the "New Gold Market Dynamics" we face.Still, for one with understanding, the most risk free and most profitable wealth to own today is pure bullion or coins. Rare and near rare coins will seldom trade in the future and if they do at all at a tremendous premium.We shall see (smile)thanks TrailGuide Max Rabbitz (06/27/01; 20:18:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 57018) Could this risk be from the Middle East? Trail Guide: "The greatest risk for them could be that a good portion of their dealings may not have involved CB gold sold short,,,, and they didn't know this for a long time. The other side of those trades were real cash buyers that simply wanted to work their money in government debt while waiting for the mine to produce gold. The buyers were willing to do this because an outright buy would have gunned the market. In addition, their cash would have not earned a return while waiting for the Euro to free gold. So, someof their smaller, non official buying was channeled into mine paper while hiding behind the big BBs." USAGOLD (06/27/01; 20:15:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 57017) Oro. . . . I would like to commend you for the extraordinary contribution you've made to this forum. My own position is not etched in stone. As a businessman,I try to deal with the financial world as it's presented to me. As a student, I try to understand the methodology that would make the world a better place. As such I derive great merit from both yours and FOA's posts and I do not find your positions at odds like some do, and that was the point of the question I posted a week or so ago. (What is the difference between FOA's and Oro's position and what does in mean to me as a gold owner?) I have spent a great deal of time with Rothbard, von Hayek, et al. I have also spent a great deal of time with James Grant, Adrian van Eck and Richard Russel. I never felt that I was wasting my time in either quarter. One of my father's great compliments is to call someone " a gentleman and a scholar." You, sir, are both, and that's what I didn't say in my post to you this morning but should have. Mr Gresham (06/27/01; 19:42:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 57016) Oro, FOA FOA: "Then, watching the faces of everyone,,,,, as they were waiting for something real to chew on,,,,, I realized that it was what "they were thinking that counted" not mine or his personal feelings on the subject. "Each of you is head and shoulders above all of the blather we encounter in daily life and most reading on the 'Net. Do what you do best, in parallel to each other if necessary, and we'll all wait for time to sort out who was "right". Your contributions are matchless in any venue and _I_ at least want you BOTH around when my questions (or events) catch up with your previous posts.And thanks for the patience you have each shown on many stressful occasions -- you know we're going through crazy times economically, and hundreds (?) of readers want you around for a shot at an explanation as the big stuff comes down... USAGOLD (06/27/01; 19:34:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 57015) Comment. . . . FOA: "Players are more and more understanding the truedynamics that will mark ""all"" paper gold assets down once this runs. Physical will be the only game in town then!(smile)." MK: It doesn't escape notice that Barrick sold its gold at an average minimum of $345 to someone. "Who" we don't know. Now they bust their hump to acquire the gold to satisfy this short, and the Homestake shareholders become the big loser -- a target because they had unencumbered gold in the ground. Who are among the most dissatisfied with this transaction? My friends on Wall Street who think they've been taken for a ride by Homestake's managers.Aside: Welcome back, FOA. Those were some "sterling" posts today. The level of both interest and discussion always rises when you stride through these Castle doors. Randy (@ The Tower) (06/27/01; 19:03:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 57014) Trail Guide, two of your comments ---" I have spelled Mr. G's name with two LLs for so long I see no reason to change now. (smile)"---Here's a reason... one L saves time! <bigger smile>---"I'll wait to see where this scent takes us travelers."---Don't feel compelled to slacken your pace on my feeble account. I can almost assure you that I'll simply be here in the undergrowth off to the side of the beaten path -- probably within earshot although several steps behind the leading group of hikers.However, I think some of the roots that I intend to turn up in this effort will we be edible "food for thought" for some of our hungriest thinkers and fellow travelers. ji (06/27/01; 18:55:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 57013) Constitutional question, @ Yukon http://fly.hiwaay.net/~becraft/MONEYbrief.html Greetings Sir,The link above is a good place to start investigating the constitutional issues of money. Tree in the Forest (06/27/01; 18:53:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 57012) Leigh Who knows Leigh. Maybe you'll wind up owning shares of Franco Nevada!(GOLD.com)Jun 27, 20:39By Scott AndersonTORONTO, June 27 - The gold mining industry, still buzzing over the blockbuster merger between Barrick Gold Corp. (Toronto:ABX.TO - news) (NYSE:ABX - news) and Homestake Mining Co. (NYSE:HM - news) will see more action in the months ahead as big players seek to solidify their strongholds, top executives at Franco-Nevada Mining Corp. Ltd. (Toronto:FN.TO - news) said on Wednesday.And Franco-Nevada, already no stranger to the merger game, will be very active over the next few months.``We're not through goosing the industry. Not by a long shot,'' Seymour Schulich, chairman and co-chief executive, told Reuters in an interview.``We started the game a year ago and we're still at the forefront. I think it will heat up, no question,'' added Pierre Lassonde, president and co-chief executive.Franco-Nevada's statements come just days after rival Canadian gold company Barrick catapulted to the position of the world's second-largest gold producer behind South Africa's AngloGold Ltd. through the $2.3 billion all-share takeover of Homestake.The deal, expected to be finalized in the fourth quarter, boosts Barrick's production by more than 2 million ounces a year to 6 million ounces.Franco-Nevada, a gold royalty company, has also pulled the trigger on a handful of blockbuster deals in the past year, some successful, some not.In April, the company struck an agreement with Normandy Mining Ltd. (Australia:NDY.AX - news) to swap Franco-Nevada's Ken Snyder gold mine in Nevada for a share in the Australian gold miner. The agreement doubled Franco-Nevada's annual gold production and made it the largest shareholder in Normandy with a 19.9 percent stake.The deal marked the first time that cash-rich Franco-Nevada had walked down the consolidation trail since its failed attempt to merge with South Africa's Gold Fields Ltd. last year.Last September, the South African government blocked Franco-Nevada's proposed $3.7 billion merger with Gold Fields saying it would not benefit the country's economy.``Consolidation is good for the industry. It has to happen,'' said Lassonde. ``It's good for us. It reduces the number of names out there and makes our franchise worth a great deal more. It makes our investment in Normandy worth a whole lot more. So, all around, we believe it's a good thing.''Although he refused to be specific, Schulich said Franco-Nevada, which has a warchest of about C$940 million ($618 million) in cash, would be very active in the near term.``There will be developments in the next three months,'' he said. ``Wait and see.''Having failed once already in South Africa, Schulich said the company will now concentrate on politically stable regions where foreign investment is encouraged.``The radar screens are in politically secure areas, which, in our minds, are primarily Australia and North America,'' he said. ``We consider Australia an attractive area to invest.''Schulich acknowledged that his company was also eyeing Homestake, but was apparently beaten to the punch by Barrick.``We thought Homestake was a very attractive asset and had it remained independent it is one that we would have considered doing something with, certainly down the road,'' he said. ``It was certainly on our radar screens and very high on our radar screens.''Schulich and Lassonde, both widely respected in the industry for their knowledge of the markets, are bullish about the price of gold, which Lassonde said could hit $500 an ounce over the next three to five years as market supply diminishes.Gold, which has traded in a 52-week range of $252.80 to $326.25, last traded in London on Wednesday at $274.80 an ounce. IronHead (06/27/01; 18:43:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 57011) Randy @The Tower - Power Of Magic or Power Of Gold Randy, the wand has finally been waved by the also-mighty (thank you) and now the power of gold "IS" as I've always suspected. So the greatest common denominator has been shown, and now you ask what trade will I accept for my gold - I admonish those whom covet my (old) found wealth to bid high - for the next offer may be greater than even the also-mighty can afford. Yes, everything else will be subserviant to the yellow kahuna - be it yuan, yuro, or yahoo dollars. Leigh (06/27/01; 18:24:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 57010) Tree in the Forest Good question, Tree! I'm worried about my GOLD and HGMCY shares! Tree in the Forest (06/27/01; 18:23:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 57009) Trail Guide In view of the ABX/HM merger, are you at all worried about your GOLD shares? Do you think they'll cave in to Anglogold? Tree in the Forest (06/27/01; 18:19:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 57008) Perhaps I should add That this would certainly shut this site down. We are too politically incorrect here. Tree in the Forest (06/27/01; 18:17:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 57007) More socialism from Europe http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/6/26/205952.shtml From newsmax.com:Proposed Treaty Threatens InternetWes VernonWednesday, June 27, 2001WASHINGTON - A new proposal coming out of an international conference threatens the freedom you enjoy through "the people's medium," the Internet.James Love, writing in News Viewz, reports that the just-concluded conference at the Hague in the Netherlands would impose "a bold set of rules that will profoundly change the internet" and "extend the reach of every country's intellectual property laws," including those that are not related to the Internet.Last December, NewsMax.com reported on efforts within the U.S. government to make Web sites responsible for everything said by the other sites to which they provide links.In other words, if a nonprofit Web site provides links to a partisan political site, the nonprofit would lose its tax-exempt status because that would count as a campaign contribution. This is widely feared to be a leftist reaction to the Internet's ability to get around the mainstream media and expose the public to the other side of issues.That would apply even to those sites that provide links to both the Republican and Democrat parties. It would put a lot of sites out of business or constrain their ability to reference other sources.A similar concept envisioned on an international scale by the Hague convention could "effectively strip Internet service providers of protection from litigation over the content they carry."As Love puts it, the new international treaty, if it takes effect, "will strangle the Internet with a suffocating blanket of overlapping jurisdictional claims, expose every web page publisher to liabilities for libel, defamation and every other speech offense from virtually any country."Membership in the Hague Conference now includes China and Egypt. One can hardly imagine an American Web site relishing being held to the "speech standards" prevailing in places where repressive civil actions that crush dissent are commonplace. But the European delegates would not even consider adding favorable speech language.In answer to an inquiry from NewsMax.com, Love said that "every country can refuse to enforce a judgment if a judge finds that to do so would be manifestly incompatible with public policy, a fairly high standard, but not impossibly high."Those who have observed the antics of some of the more activist judges in this country can imagine some significant lines being crossed and precedents being set.Love also told NewsMax that under the Hague convention, "nations agree to enforce each other's judgments, if they follow a common set of rules regarding jurisdiction. In terms of the Internet and speech, just about everyone gets jurisdiction, which causes all sorts of problems."One of those "problems" is that the treaty would give "businesses who sell goods and services the right to dictate via contracts countries where disputes will be resolved and rights defended."What caused all this activity to muzzle the Internet? Get this:"European negotiators were also unhappy with the generally free and unruly nature of the Internet, and saw the convention as a mechanism to reign in hate speech."To some, that raises a red flag and sounds eerily similar to frequent leftist rhetoric in the United States. Who defines "hate speech"? Is it defined by the prevailing ultra-left tone on many of America's campuses where professors lose their positions and students are suspended or refused graduation for speaking against politically correct orthodoxy?The News Viewz paper adds: "Europe was also alarmed and jealous of the U.S. leadership in the development of the Internet. European negotiators pushed hard to impose a treaty based on the European Union's Brussels Convention, not only to preserve the European approach, but to lead, for once, in an important area for the Internet."Presumably, there will come a time when the president will be asked to submit this treaty to the U.S. Senate for ratification. Look for another controversy over yet another document which, according to the report cited above, would "diminish national sovereignty." Trail Guide (06/27/01; 18:01:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 57006) (No Subject) Hello Sir Randy,I smell rumination in the air (smile). I'll wait to see where this scent takes us travelers. Trail Guide (06/27/01; 17:51:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 57005) comment Hello Michael,-----USAGOLD (6/27/01; 08:10:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 56965)Behind the Barrick/Homestake Merger: A Shotgun Wedding Based onGold and Dollar Fundamentals------In my view, you are absolutely right; "Barrick is covering their shorts with HM". We can also see this in a deeper view.ABX has evolved into little more than a banker's extension. One that trades gold for their gain. On ABXs side,,,,, I see their massive paper short position as a financial tool that allows them to make a return on in place reserves without mining them in total,,, at once. That is all their program is really doing. It's a product of banker's games. The greatest risk for them could be that a good portion of their dealings may not have involved CB gold sold short,,,, and they didn't know this for a long time. The other side of those trades were real cash buyers that simply wanted to work their money in government debt while waiting for the mine to produce gold. The buyers were willing to do this because an outright buy would have gunned the market. In addition, their cash would have not earned a return while waiting for the Euro to free gold. So, some of their smaller, non official buying was channeled into mine paper while hiding behind the big BBs.Ha! Ha! It's kind of a joke when one thinks about it. The mine was leveraging their unmined assets to produce a simple return and telling their investors it got a higher realized price for gold production (and it was) ,,,,,,,,, while locking out any chance for profit if gold ran. The opposite side brought the future gold assets of the mine at cheap prices and paid the mines investors that same little simple return to gain all the future profit. Future profit, I might add, that would make those little ABX gains look tiny!Now, some smart cookies are putting the puzzle together,,,, so, they must get some uncommitted gold at any price so as to cover those real players that were suddenly found to be there,,,,, on the other side.This is the dilemma most gold mine investors face. Some brought HM years ago at $8++ and were waiting for gold to rise. Now, with the game coming to an end, their assets are taken below par and become paper support if the physical market locks up. The combined companies would never keep up with physical in that run.Further,Yes, the market is in a changing mode (just as you say) as the countdown begins. Players are more and more understanding the true dynamics that will mark ""all"" paper gold assets down once this runs. Physical will be the only game in town then!(smile) More Randy (@ The Tower) (06/27/01; 17:36:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 57004) Food for deep thought. Those seeking superficial tidbits are advised to promptly scroll past this one! An advocate for the "sound money" structure of a fixed gold standard monetary system is heard to say:"If our money isn't denominated as tangible units of gold, then how can we ever really know what value our money is worth?"Seemingly, that's what it all boils down to. Right?Well, maybe?Maybe not?I'm content to say that it is just one of many hurdles we'll encounter in this race for the golden prize. But for this single moment in time here at the Forum, let's assume that this is the only item at issue -- i.e., without gold in use as the denominator, people won't really know what value their money is worth.However, a small, problematic "detail" takes shape in my mind regarding this golden solution as I hear the voice of The Tower's "chief resident" booming up from the very depths of the foundations to my perch here upon the parapet."Abracadabra... their money IS gold as they so desire! I only ask that you tell me this as things seem now much like before -- how now shall they know what value the GOLD is worth? Have they not simply avoided the maze only to walk into a twin labyrinth?"Ah, good ol' "Value". How on earth do we measure it absolutely? Answer that and we'll be off and running at a brisk pace.More will follow, but first you shall have a chance to ruminate. Trail Guide (06/27/01; 17:14:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 57003) Comment Hello Usul,-----Usul (6/27/01; 07:09:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 56964)Britain and the Euro: Opinion is divided, but many consider it inevitable----Yes, it's true that most people over there think it's inevitable. I don't know if it's from a good understanding of the dollar's problems or from plain old common sense,,,, but many can see the end of our dollar's timeline. Certainly, neither the pound or Britain's economic structure can stand alone in this new era of world trading. Then must join with someone. Quite a few thinkers over there see the fix our fed is in now and also understand just what Allan's game plan must lead to. With the Euro now in full "Rut Season" the dollar must stay strong or be completely dropped. In order to keep the greenback strong we must play the game of "see everybody,, we are dropping rates to gun our American financial structure"! The message that sends also includes; A. to hell with long term stability of the currency B. to heck with the eventual super inflationary downturn such an act will bringC. who cares about the industrial backbone of the American nation if our exchange rates render it profit less. Just as long as our financial sector (stock market included) attracts dollar flow.Even Bush is forced to backtrack on the Steel issue. This and any number of other recent political reversal rumblings smell to heaven like the socialist beast dollar supporters tag Europe as. This begs the question; if the US really turns down, will we suddenly shut our long proclaimed free trade doors? Blocking a return of our trade deficit dollars? The answer foreign reserve dollar holders say is,,,,,,,yes! At some point they must realign into another trading block?You see, with the Euro standing in the wings,,,, the ECB has but to wait out our final inflationary act. Allan is blocked from any other recourse by the very existence of the Euro. (note: I have spelled Mr. G's name with two LLs for so long I see no reason to change now. (smile)more Trail Guide (06/27/01; 16:42:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 57002) Comment Hello ausome,you write:--- ausome (6/27/01; 06:42:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 56963)British entry into EU - NO WAY! Trail Guide with due respect sir, I do not believe Britain will ever join the EU. There is incredible opposition to such a plan from its people. Remember they speak English and are not European!--------Well ausome, I'm not sure I grasp your point? You see, the last time I heard the British talk,,,, they didn't speak english either!! Ha! Ha! Ho! Ho! (huge smile) Just a good joke! I have a really good friend from Ireland. Every time she visits us that woman can go off on the very best rendition of "down home" British you ever heard!! I told here once that more Europeans speak better english than the British ever have and she agreed. Now,,,,, I'm not even going to mention the communication mode those Irish have,,,, Eh Cavan Man? (smile)Seriously,,,, if one does their history work on Great B ,,,,,, that Island has been trading with Europe far longer than with America. The language has never been a point of ideology or social contention. In many ways, the recent building of the Chunnel (Channel Tunnel) only strengthened their physical ties with the continent. I pointed out in another post that they won't join because they want to,,, they will do it after fully understanding the economic implications if they don't. Later, they will hurry to join,,,, before the fact.---------Nonetheless I agree there will be a dismantling of the Anglo gold pricing structure but this has been set down already in the WA regardless of whether Britain joins or not. --------Well sir, as our Cavan Man pointed out earlier today, London is a big chunk of the world's financial game. It has also evolved into the only remaining major support for the dollar's rule. They have used that position for some time to slant much of world finance into dollar holdings. Gold was but one tool in that chest. This whole EuroLand shift has, all along, included a plan by European leaders to bring England (that's London too(smile)) into that fold. All for the purpose of breaking the last dollar post. In a further light, few can grasp just how much oil wealth is centered in London. That wealth is also geared to making the Euro project a success and does exert an enormous influence on opinion there.Once the tide turns, and England is seen as slanted to EMU, no matter if it's years away,,,,,, watch the whole gold market sector fail it's ability to put a price on real bullion trading! When that part of the dollar game is lost ,,,,,, when that post of dollar support is gone,,,,,, the washout Another has always pointed to will start.more Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (06/27/01; 15:04:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 57001) (No Subject) SPOT got SPANKED! NY close, down $4.90. megatron (6/27/01; 14:46:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 57000) colourofmoney Don't get me wrong. I agree. There will/would be a tremendous black market for gold/silver. The actual price would be incredible. But as I said, the'scum' would make it technically illegal and try to confiscate from people too slow on the draw, that's all. Christian (6/27/01; 14:40:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 56999) (No Subject) Many countries holding dollars have converted to Euro's and those Euro's end up buying our corporate debt or our GSE debt. Financially USA is being sold off. This is true with England, Canada and many other countries. The new owners of everything are the Class A shares of the FED. We are conquered from within. A good definition of our money is that money is as money does. Deposits are created by the act of lending of which a new loan is made. Banks create credit, by creating deposits in the act of lending. We are doing exactly what Japan did. Servicing the debt will take more and more from the economy. The stock market like commodities can from now on be controlled by the FED by simply printing money, buy the index or a commodity like silver or gold and dump it on the market. The commodity market and the stock market are now instruments of the FED for cash flow purposes. Just like Homestake and Barrick merger, they were merged for cash flow purposes. There will be a time we will be merging countries. There is no reason why USA and Russia should not merge. Both countries are owned by the same people. That day will come. Average credit card holder in the USA is now $8,220, average home mortgage increased $41,000 in the last 5 years alone. All made possible with money... printed paper of available purchasing power to the borrower. The FED will continue lowering the interest rates but banks have increased the home mortgage rate .06%. Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (6/27/01; 14:36:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 56998) Me, me me... "In the end we chose to let others raise our children and then we turned on those who chose to take on the task, telling them they were wrong in each and everything they did. We became strangers to our children and to each other as each of us tried to grab the golden ring of success. We turned away from creating things of substance to sell to others in the free marketplace where all real wealth is made. Instead, we chose to create paper empires through stock splits and initial public offerings because it was the quick and easy method for making it big.We watched stock prices soar to the heavens as everyone tried to jump on board the bandwagon of easy money and instant success. .....We believed the federal government would take care of us in times of sickness and retirement even though we knew the government could only do this by taking from one sector of society and giving to another.In reality we had become a pampered and coddled people too caught up in the fulfillment of immediate needs to be concerned about tomorrow. Yet we worried more about what tomorrow might bring thann we did about today." (Haga, "After the Crash", pages 240-41) Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (6/27/01; 14:21:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 56997) Tree In The Forest, Yukon 240 grains for .45 Colt. 230 grains for .45 ACP. 231 grains is known as adding insult to injury! colourofmoney (6/27/01; 14:05:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 56996) Wheat and gold, megatron << they will take your gold at pennies on the dollar >>It will be traded on the black market anytime, anywhere, anyhow. Tree in the Forest (6/27/01; 13:58:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 56995) Correction We've had private money for 90 years and it has become more pervasive since 1934 and we've had nothing but token coins for around 35 years. For all of you purists out there; but the message is still the same. megatron (6/27/01; 13:58:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 56994) Crossroads There have been the same kind of insinuations from farmers for years about price fixing as we now have in the PM markets. Weather dependent commodities would be extremely hard to corner or colude to control, although in Canada we just make it illegal to sell wheat. I'm not kidding! It's illegal to sell wheat to anyone other than the gov't!!! Canadian gold bugs,you must understand this point. When TSHTF the ability to freely trade gold will be removed. If those pukes like Trudeau and Chretien can stand by and let 400,000 independent business men be enslaved, do you think they will shed a tear for the 'poor' gold owner who,in a price run-up, now hasn 1,000,000 worth of gold bullion? They will take it away at pennies on the dollar, my friends, I guarantee it. Tree in the Forest (6/27/01; 13:35:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 56993) Yukon Hello. No I am not an attorney. Yes the manuscript does tend to impress. Like yourself, I have wanted to know more about it. I have searched for info on the Freedom League and have found none. I have searched for the author but am still uncertain as to his identity. (Although I do have a clue.) I found this posted on a newsgroup with a 1993 date which pre-dates the world wide web, so this has definitely been around for awhile. I have no easy way of authenticating the veracity of the information offered. I have attempted to exchange FRNs for United States Notes at the Federal Reserve Bank in New York. Their response was "Huh?". I have verified from another site that by law there must be some $300 million dollars in public money available. They pass this money around from bank to bank so that noone can actually use it. The only public money now in circulation is token coins. "They" have destroyed our public money system. Someone posted a while back that we might see the return of private money. Guess what? That's all we've had for the last 90 years! It would appear that we are currently in a state of emergency which some congressman have apparently tried to end with no success. I think that we need a war to end it and possibly a constitutional convention to prevent this from happening again. We may get these.PS If you can find a 231 grain bullet for a .45, be my guest! Crossroads (6/27/01; 12:55:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 56992) regarding Yukon msg #56966 Yukon, A number of years ago there was a march on Washington that ended up getting a lot of negative publicity. Farmers gathered from all over this country to join in a common cause. This cause was called the American Agriculture Movement. They organized a trip that would rally them together in front of the White House. They drove their farm tractors in to the city. The "parade" clogged up main arteries and congested the city of Washington D.C. Instead of gaining public support the media painted a negative scope of these people, which was never to be overcome. The negative impact was more than most farmers could bear, it drained many participants financially and the fact that farmers are an independent lot they could not achieve the organization they needed to become a powerful lobby. During the course of this activity, there was a lot of information generated, much of which never did and never will make it to the mainstream media. This all happened long enough ago that it is but a vague memory to me. The sad part in all of this is that they had an incredible message for all Americans. Few would hear. I am from the Midwest and I was exposed to their message through public speakers and many documents, which were and probably still are available in most public libraries. It would require extensive research to find this information today. Let it be known that I do not consider myself a renowned authority on this or any other subject.The reason for my writing this to you and for anyone else remotely interested is that I retained a portion of this information. This movement is still alive but in an underground sort of way. Those in leadership literally fear for their lives, yet they continue to attempt to inform what I will refer to as an apathetic audience, the American people. One of the books I acquired about a year ago, was discussing what you are asking. The answer I would give is this, we are no longer functioning under the U.S. Constitution. We are living under the illusion that the constitution is enforced, however it is The War Powers Act that is the law of the land today. What I find to be most alarming about all of this is that every president in office since this act was instated has had the power to put us back under the power of the constitution and yet no one has touched it. Who knows what the ramifications of this action would have upon oneself if they were to attempt to reinstate the constitution. I have spoken to people of this and it always ends the same. You can talk religion and politics and almost always get into an argument with somebody. Sometimes you can even make enemies out of friends and relatives. We even get to witness this mentality here on the forum from time to time. Consequently I have chosen to remain quiet about it for many years. It seems that the more we are exposed to the talking heads, the psychobabble, and the selfishness of our world today, the more apathetic we become towards freedom and what it actually is. There is no question in my mind that we have moved from a conservative perspective to a liberal extreme. The information that I have is not accepted as forum material and I will refrain from anymore on this subject. I much rather prefer to just sit and read what is going on between all of the posters here and am grateful for the information. That is aside from the negative criticisms. I leave you with this quotation and maybe then you can see where we might be headed."The average of the world's great civilizations before they decline has been 200 years. These nations have progressed in this sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to great courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to complacency; from complacency to apathy; from apathy to dependency; from dependency back again to bondage." ........... Alexander Tytler, (in his 1770 book, Cycle of Democracy)Regards Yukon (6/27/01; 12:41:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 56991) Tree in Forest Dear Sir;Thank you for your response. I posted some time ago a related question and at that time you were, agiain, the only taker. At that time you gave the message #52341 and date of your post as April 22, 2001. I have found your post entitled "The Commercial Credit System" and have read it. First Impression: Excellent work! As you know it contains much info and it will take me a little time to fully digest it, especially as it relates to my questions.In the mean time, could you please enlighten me as to what the source is at the conclusion of your post..."Reprinted from Freedom League, Sep./Oct. 1984"? Is this a newsletter? Organization?Finally, the article does cite as refereces actual court cases, United States Code, American Jurisprudence, Bouviers Law Dictionary etc. Are you an attorney at law? If not, and the article is for the most part the work of the Freedom League, could you please give as much information as possible about this group? I am trying to ascertain the quality, integrity and above all, truth in this posting. Also, I am curious. Have you attempted to turn any private credit (FRNs) into public money (coinage issued by the U.S. Mint or U.S.Treasury $100 notes) as suggested in the post to require the FED to pay its obligation toward national debt settlement? Thanks again for your response, and by the way, I agree with your thoughts, as well as those of Stocks Lies and Ticker Tape in resoponse to US Ret. Amazing how a fondness of the yellow metal carries with it so many strong convictions on such global issues. Seems freedom, in all its expressions, can never be silenced. Reminds me of the eternal battle of good vs evil!Think maybe I will post a message on my front door reading"Warning, enemies (UN, FEMA et al) may be subject to lethal and deadly lead poisoning! Enter at own risk." Let freedom ring with a shotgun blast? If necessary, absolutely! Re: your plan: maybe 231 grains would be better, no? (smile)Yukon C. Netking (6/27/01; 12:40:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 56990) Electricity and Silver - Butler http://www.gloomdoom.com/06-27-01.html Snippits from Ted Butlers link, enjoy:". . . You have seen me write that, among all the elements, silver is the best conductor of electricity, the best conductor of heat and the best reflector of light. Even though the main industrial use for silver, photography, is non-electrical in nature, and even though there are numerous applications for silver unrelated to silver's electrical conductivity, it is its electrical applications that hold so much promise for the future. What I'm attempting in this piece, is to peer into the future. I'm not going to talk about what is currently occurring in the silver market. I'm not going to talk about how, presently, we can't satisfy current silver demand and must keep dipping into inventories to close the "gap", much as we have had to do for the last 50 years. No, I'm not going to talk about the current shortage, I'm going to talk about the future shortage. I'm going to talk about the new, blockbuster applications that promise to pile onto the demand side in the future.There are three new applications for silver that could really change the world, and radically add to the already bullish sup-ply/demand equation. The three applications are Photo voltaic (PV) solar electric pro-duction, all electric or petrol/electric hybrid vehicles, and superconductivity. All three have the potential of radically altering the world, and the world of silver. PV technology, the production of electricity by sunlight, needs silver to collect the electricity produced by the flat solar panels, that you see everywhere, from remote telephone booths to remote lighting applications, to homes and businesses. Costs are decreasing for the panels, and demand grows as people realize there is no cleaner and more dependable source of energy than the sun. Electric or hybrid vehicles have critical electrical requirements which only silver can provide. The potential market is so large it is hard to fully comprehend. . . .I'm not saying I know what the future holds. I am saying, in studying superconductor and alternative energy production for 15 years, it is not surprising my initial hunch, namely, that the best conductor of electricity, silver, would play an important role. Nothing that has transpired in the last 15 years has negated that hunch. . . . . . .If silver remains as important in superconductivity and alternative energy as it is out of the gate so far, the introduction of this new demand for silver, on top of existing exploding demand, has bullish implications that should send a shiver through a thinking individual. And to those who would say that silver will become too expensive going forward for widespread use in the new technologies, let me say two things. One, I admit, there is too much silver in this first cable. They have to figure a way to use less silver. I don't think they can eliminate silver, but they must use less. And two, don't sell short the ability of mass production and innovation in lowering the content of silver and the final total cost. The way I figure it, the first light bulb had to cost tens of millions of dollars. What does a light bulb cost today? The first superconducting cable cost millions of dollars. What will the 10,000th cable cost? Even though silver demand has done nothing but increase over the years, the big kick up in demand may be right ahead of us. . . ." The Hoople (6/27/01; 12:38:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 56989) CNBC Daycare Now Open ! The babies are screaming and whining. Larry of America Kudlow is pouting. Get those baby bottles out! Clean up those poopy diapers! Get out the binkies! What a pathetic lot they are. The only issue really is the velocity of fiat printed and the rate charged for it by a private club outside of government jurisdiction. It is all a charade and smokescreen to distract people from sound (gold backed) money policy and a currency that cannot depreciate or erode. Until then buffoons like Greenspan will tinker and toy with our wealth at will. Compare that drivel on TV to the intelligence(mostly) on this forum. But we already know that, right? Randy (@ The Tower) (6/27/01; 12:21:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 56988) FOMC lowers both fed funds target and discount rates by 25 basis points FEDERAL RESERVE PRESS RELEASE --- June 27, 2001The Federal Open Market Committee at its meeting today decided to lower its target for the federal funds rate by 25 basis points to 3-3/4 percent. In a related action, the Board of Governors approved a 25 basis point reduction in the discount rate to 3-1/4 percent. Today's action by the FOMC brings the decline in the target federal funds rate since the beginning of the year to 275 basis points.The patterns evident in recent months--declining profitability and business capital spending, weak expansion of consumption, and slowing growth abroad--continue to weigh on the economy. The associated easing of pressures on labor and product markets are expected to keep inflation contained.Although continuing favorable trends bolster long-term prospects for productivity growth and the economy, the Committee continues to believe that against the background of its long-run goals of price stability and sustainable economic growth and of the information currently available, the risks are weighted mainly toward conditions that may generate economic weakness in the foreseeable future.In taking the discount rate action, the Federal Reserve Board approved requests submitted by the Boards of Directors of the Federal Reserve Banks of Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Atlanta, Chicago, Dallas and San Francisco. ROSEBUD99 (6/27/01; 11:29:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 56987) pop up ads www.analogx.com I think it was peter asher that was talking about those "pop up ads" There is a little program that i found that will close them as soon as they pop. One just has to add each different one once and then you will not be bothered by them anymore :) The name of it is "POW".I found it at the link posted above. Just add the program to your startup directory so it will always be there when you start your computer. P.S. I have no interest in the linked site, so i hope this is ok. :) US_Army(RET) (6/27/01; 11:27:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 56986) Ditto.. Tree in the Forest (6/27/01; 10:57:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 56983) Again..."Amen" and "Alhamdulilla" AGREE! Camel (6/27/01; 11:22:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 56985) Rockgrabber I would like to second Rockgrabbers question as to the precise mechanisum by which those countries holding dollars as a reserve would convert to Euros. Is this done on the currency exchange, I believe it is called the FOREX,or would the dollars be in the form of U.S Treasuries,money markets, stocks etc.Selling dollars and buying Euros would cause the exchange rate of dollar to Euro to change dramatically from the present 86, but would this automatically cause the POG to rise to keep the 15% backing. It is generally agreed that a lot of the US inflation has been captured in these foreign reserves, but wouldn't that just transfer the inflation over to the Euro. US_Army(RET) (6/27/01; 10:57:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 56984) The USA is in a position to take action. Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (6/27/01; 10:49:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 56982) "Amen" and "Alhamdulilla" AGREE! Tree in the Forest (6/27/01; 10:57:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 56983) US_Army(RET) Well I happen to agree with you US_Army(RET), there are definitely things worth fighting for, but staged events like Bill Clinton's bombings to divert attention from his political problems aren't one of them. You seem to think that all of these worldwide "disagreements" are real; I don't. I think that they are promoted via professional rabel rousers and media propaganda to assist elitists in the pursuit of their own agenda. I also believe that the conflicts in the ME have been planned and promoted for the purposes of the big oil interests like Mr. Rockefeller. I don't see why ordinary men should die just so that he can achieve his goals of world domination.If you want a better plan sir, I have one for you. Start at the top of the ladder where the wars are all planned and instigated for political and personal agendas, and introduce each participant to 230 grains of lead. I think you'll find that far fewer people will need to die and that the problem will be solved much more quickly and with far less "collateral damage". BTW this is the Arab way and I agree with it wholeheartedly. How's that for a plan of action? Or do you just prefer to kill propagandized sheeple who neither truly want war nor gain anything from it?PS. Have fun in Calgary Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (6/27/01; 10:49:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 56982) US_Army (RET) The USA is in a position to take action. I believe that action should be in the form of securing energy independence from those hard headed regions of this globe where there will never be a solution outside of an all out REAL war where there is a undisputed victor and vanquished.I also wish my government would concentrate on maximizing the potential of human as well as natural resources in order to strengthen our house from within. I want a defensive capability second to none, and if necessary the will to use it to CONCLUSION.I want the US out of NATO and the Balkans because I want Europe to grow up and take responsibility. I also see no logical reason for US servicemen to be the first to die in the next Korean War, nearly 50 years after the "ceasefire". I want Japan to pay for its own defense. I want China to develop its own long range nuclear capability, rather than copying Uncle Sam's term paper. I want the US out of the MidEast, and out of the UN.Only the US returning to a true gold standard will allow my wish list to be realized. Only through the abuse of fiat can our fingers be in so many pies. Time to wipe our hands of this mess, take responsibility for what we can change (our focus), to better secure life, liberty, and our pursuit of happiness. US_Army(RET) (6/27/01; 10:25:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 56981) Lightening up....some thoughts... As I begin the process of packing up the car, family and camping gear for a long drive up to Calgary, Canada, for the annual "Stampede" and "Marathon…The thought comes to me how much my favorite "hobbies" also "affect" my investing habits. The analogies between the two appear so striking that I feel like I need to share these thoughts. Other "players" of this game may find similar analogies in their life habits.Long distance running (Marathons), much like participating in the PM markets requires two key elements to be successful. The first is a long period (years) of slow but regular training (investment) and "learning" everything one can about the event (market). The second, is a firm focus on the finish line when actually participating in the event. One has to ignore the aches/pains, gullies/hills and fellow participants and keeping the ultimate goal clearly in perspective (the finish line). Any major deviation in thought or purpose almost certainly results in failure.The second great attraction, and this may seem strange to those who have never actually witnessed the event, or given much thought to it, is "Bull Riding." Now this is an event any PM trader or holder should be able to relate to…wild, volatile and pure "mayhem" --- but "let go" and all is lost. Oh, I love it. --- Must be why I am so enthralled with the owning gold.Regards,SLD Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (6/27/01; 10:21:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 56980) Uncle Sam, aka "Sticky Fingers" great minds think alike "Following the heels of creating the new and "trackable" currency , the government will, in all probability, do one of three things! 1. Replace the new currency with another new currency in a mandatory swap where 100 old dollars become one new dollar, or 2. follow in Roosevelt's footsteps and first make the ownership of gold and then silver illegal. Direct all Americans to turn their gold and silver over to whichever Federal Reserve Bank is still open in their area (many will have already failed). Pay people, with paper currency, the "market" price (which after the coming stock market meltdown) could be $3,500 per ounce for gold and $150 for silver. Issue non-circulating gold and silver certificates to the Federal Banks who, in turn, turn over their gold and silver to the Treasury. Once this process is accomplished, the President (through an Executive Order or Congressional legislation) could then unilaterally raise the price of gold to $5,000 per ounce and silver to $500 per ounce thus wiping out a substantial portion of governmental debt and the assets of most Americans in the process; or 3. Follow the same process in (2.) above, but only pay people the "official" price of gold and silver: $42.22 and 50.1 cents per ounce respectively BEFORE raising the price to $5,000 per ounce and $500 per ounce respectively.If the government were to choose the third option, there would (I believe) be a revolution.In any event, people investing in numismatic coins would not only get to keep their precious metals, they would, as did their forefathers, realize the spoils as well. I say this because the Eminent Domain clause of the Fifth Amendment is still a part of the U.S. Constitution and the government will be facing the same dilemma as in Roosevelt's time." (exerpt from "After the Crash, life in the new Great Depression", by Michael Haga, 1996, Acclaim Publishing, pages 199-200) Rockgrabber (6/27/01; 10:02:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 56979) I need help in understanding the Euro, Dollar, reserve status The world pays around 80%(?) of currency transactions in dollars. Only because the US dollar has no competition really. So everyone must have dollars to buy the goods they want. Making it so that the dollar is overly used in world trade. Creating an artificial demand for dollars, where they would otherwise not exist. Now when the Euro comes out here, much less demand will be needed for dollar transactions. Alot of people, businesses, banks, will not longer need the dollar. My question... How are these dollars going to find their way back into our pockets?? How will inflation rage, if unemployment is raging? So wage increases seem neccesary, but who will hold jobs? US_Army(RET) (6/27/01; 10:01:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 56978) No action won't cut it...better idea? Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape/Tree in the Forest... Tree in the Forest/Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape Tree in the Forest...You write:"…I just have one question for you US_Army(RET), when the UN is beating down the door to your house (in the name of world peace of course), will you advocate this invasion also?…"--------One answer…You BET I would! And I would be doing a lot more then just making noise.If I found myself in the situation as (many in the ME currently are), where my house and land had been taken away. My family and friends "moved" and "locked" away in great concentration camps, subjected to daily and continuous violence and degradation by a occupying force…there is probably no limit to what actions I would take to try and correct the situation.Your post brings to mind…War is an ugly thing, but it is not the ugliest of things; The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that no thing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing he cares about more then his own personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men then himself. -John Stewart Mill- To: Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape---With wealth and power goes "responsibility"…I find it a very "comfortable" position to be in….but offered the "proposed" solution (just an "idea") in earlier post as the only way out of what I see as a much worse result for us all in the end. Better idea? (no action won't cut it.)SLD Matt (6/27/01; 09:56:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 56977) Thank you USAGOLD This is my first post and I wish to thank USAGOLD for the response to ORO. Although I like civil discourse on current and prospective future developments in the gold arena, I actually like a gentlemanly discourse better.I suspect that we might be very surprised at the(political) level of influence that monitors this and other boards. Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (6/27/01; 09:55:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 56976) USAGOLD @ criticism Are you reading what I am reading? ORO was simply asking FOA for the second (or third?) time. Asking not demanding. A response to a question is necessary for a dialogue to exist. We wait together, yes? Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (6/27/01; 09:40:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 56975) Tree In The Forest, US_Army (RET) Words of our first Commander in Chief "The Nation, which indulges towards another an habitual hatred, or an habitual fondness, is in some degree a slave...to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest...[Such a] passionate attachment...produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favourite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest...where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and Wars of the latter, without without adequate inducement or justification." (Fitzpatrick, from The Writings of George Washington, vol.35, March 30, 1796-July 31, 1797, pp. 231-32)and in referencing the distance of America from Europe:"Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European Ambition, Rivalship, Interest, Humour, or Caprice?'Tis our true policy to steer clear of permanent Alliances, with any portion of the foreign world. So far...as we are now at liberty to do it." (Fitzpatrick, The Writings of George Washington, vol.35, page 234) Randy (@ The Tower) (6/27/01; 09:23:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 56974) Banks and dealers apparently expect a 50 basis point cut in rates today as Fed adds $4 billion The Fed today added $4 billion to banking system reserves using overnight repurchase agreements collateralized by Treasuries, Federal agencies, and mortgage-backed securities.Showing the anticipation of dealers and commercial banks, the market in overnight federal funds was trading at 3.69 percent, and the stop out points on the Fed's repo operations ranged from 3.48 percent to 3.60 percent for the three classes of collateral.We'll know the truth of it in three hours. How well will your dollars stand up in the aftermath? Are they "Good as gold"? USAGOLD (6/27/01; 09:21:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 56973) Personal attacks. . . . Let me answer that question, Oro.Any personal attack on this Forum will result in suspension of posting privileges. No exceptions. The fact that you think that these posts might be out of bounds should tell you something. The rules will be enforced. Even if FOA invited a personal attack, which I view as preposterous, it could result in your code being deleted. Centennial Precious Metals, Inc. / USAGOLD (6/27/01; 09:14:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 56972) Hard assets... Easy access! http://www.usagold.com/gold/coins/buy.html
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