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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 11/26/2002
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

(Yesterday's Discussion.)

Waverider (11/26/02; 23:28:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 90364)
Well done Mikal...and another...
Searching for the Gold
Not found in the mine, but Soul
Tranquility, Peace.

mikal (11/26/02; 22:47:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 90363)
Guide Dog's Haiku
Loyal selfless friend
Humble birth bear's silently
Lead on Golden One

mikal (11/26/02; 22:40:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 90362)
Noble Dolphin's Haiku
Floundering men's savior
Sailor's guide in stormy seas
Deep royal consort

mikal (11/26/02; 22:24:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 90361)
"Suppressed gold" haiku
Cicada rest well
Molt off man's poisonous dust
Sail to heaven's gate

DOWNUNDER (11/26/02; 21:55:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 90360)
@BOILERMAKER - -- OIL FUNDED TERRORISM

From your 90349 post: Snip

This means that countries deemed hostile will be "reconstructed" in a way that their oil-derived cashflow will be "managed" to keep funds from going to "suspect" destinations."

Your post shocked me in it's arrogance as you seem to be saying "well that"s ok by me". Can you just get your mind around one little fact? - - It's NOT American oil & if your crazy shrub & his lunatic associates even try what you're suggesting there will NOT be a safe place on Planet Earth for ANY USA citizens.

I'm afraid for USA citizens & now too Australian Citizens as our crazy narrow minded bigotted little Prime Minister has only his head sticking out of uncle Sam's A$$. ALL THE WAY he has shouted to the world (rubbing their noses in it) & LOOK what happened in Bali. There's more to come & all because of morons who think they rule the planet.Get a grip.

Boilermaker (11/26/02; 17:54:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 90349)
Oil Funded Terrorism
The Bush Administration's strategy in the Middle East to fight Islamic terror is to deprive them the means to support the terrorists. This means that countries deemed hostile will be "reconstructed" in a way that their oil-derived cashflow will be "managed" to keep funds from going to "suspect" destinations. For instance, the Gulf War established the precedent for Iraqi oil sales receipts to be spent only for human needs, ie.,food, medicine, etc. This approach appears to have failed.

I expect that the US, if/when it conquer's Iraq will set up a barter system for their oil. One bbl oil exchanged for 5 bushels of US wheat or 1/4 hospital bed made in the US or whatever else cannot be converted to terror. This will establish a captive oil supply for the US without the need for $ exchange. The same treatment may also be in store for Saudi Arabia, Iran or other hostile countries on a future timetable. I think Bush is planning to take them down one at a time.
Like to hear other thoughts on the US strategy for the Middle East; Oil, $, curtailing terror, etc.

Cheers
Boilermaker

Buena Fe (11/26/02; 21:45:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 90359)
spec feel
today i believe we passed through to beginning the next upwave in gold, will maybe even go through 330-40 before the end of the year. Why do i feel this; a mixture of several TA's and guts, over my 18 years of gold & g/stock investing it seems to my memory that some of the best moves happened between now and end of Jan.

i'm talking my book so i'm biased.

go gata go

Cavan Man (11/26/02; 20:34:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 90358)
Believe in FREE markets?
Why doesn't the IMF?
Mahathir, however, is not amused: "They (the IMF) said it was against the rules when we introduced our bilateral payments arrangements. We are still using these and our trade with such countries has increased by 400 percent. The IMF can say what they like. They have no say in this country. They need to seek our permission to come here."

"THEY HAVE NO SAY IN THIS COUNTRY. THEY NEED TO SEEK OUR PERMISSION TO COME HERE."

TownCrier (11/26/02; 20:34:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 90357)
Some light reading from the Golden Chalkboard
http://www.usagold.com/goldenchalkboard/gc_intl-currency.html
In case you run out of material over the coming long holiday weekend.

In this speech Tommaso Padoa-Schioppa give the current state of the euro and covers the bases on the non-trivial element of "inertia" and choices in the international currency sphere.

Gold is not mentioned explicitly (as that was not the purpose of his speech), but the lessons apply nonetheless.

R.

Cavan Man (11/26/02; 20:30:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 90356)
That's "too conventional"
I've had one "too" many.

Cavan Man (11/26/02; 20:29:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 90355)
Sinclair is to conventional in his thinking????
What say ye Knights (having fun ....CM)
Sunday, November 24 "I Read That AU & AG Shares Will Get Busted"
Q: I write to ask your opinion of the theory of Another and FOA who have postulated that at some point the derivative (paper) price of gold and the spot (cash) price of gold on the world market will diverge with "all paper burning" (i.e. going to zero, including mining stocks) and physical demanding a massive premium?
A: There was a time when such a statement was total nonsense. There was a time when such reasoning was an indication not of knowledge, but rather of the writer possessing a severely underactive thyroid gland. However, now there is enough truth in the extreme statement, that we must be careful not to pooh-pooh it entirely.

Courtesy of Jim Sinclair @ Financial Sense (great site).com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nature (11/26/02; 20:17:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 90354)
A simple cheers, thank you.
U.S.A. Gold thanks for such a fast response to my request for posting privileges. I am sorry to take up such fine space, but I must. Sorry I have not dealt with the fine staff at U.S.A. Gold. I have turned on some.

Cheers Mr. Black Blade. I so very much appreciate your dedication to such a worthy cause. I have learned much from your insight. So please, a simple, but dear, cheers!

A toast please, to the one known as "Another" and his fine freind "FOA". To whose trail I fallow.

Please, no responses for this of course. I hear you all loud and clear.

Back to what is important.

Thank you.

silvercollector (11/26/02; 19:49:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 90353)
Letter again in case anyone wishes to comment
http://www.observer.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,845725,00.html

silvercollector (11/26/02; 19:48:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 90352)
Email from a friend from a client from a ......regarding the Bin Laden letter
Not sure if this is at all accurate; may or may not reflect any/all of my views.

-start-

This 'letter' appeared almost at the same time as the 'tape', that is, about 2-3 weeks ago. The tape as I am sure that you are aware has been tested and appears to be Bin Laden. The 'letter' has received less press because it cannot be tested to be Bin Laden. Bin Laden or not, the Islamic that wrote the letter and blasts western Imperialists (aka: arrogant political snobs) gets right to his point. Since the world is at the cusp of a very dangerous situation I strongly urge you to carefully and more importantly read this letter without bias.

Please note a couple things, the author references the Islamic belief in all prophets (including Jesus) and offers the Western Imperialists (Americans) to leave with 'luggage' (and presumably blood) or leave without blood. As you may also be aware the recent (almost 2 year) ruckus in the Middle-East stems from the Palestinian/Israeli hatred.

History points clearly to the fact that post-WWII led to the immigration (?) of jews from Europe (German issue possibly?) into Palestine and Israel formed its independence shortly thereafter. Israel, a war-torn mis-fit of a country has been financed for 50 years by the States and now is a nuclear mini-superpower. The near unanimous opinion is that the U.S. finances Israel to keep Arab countries at bay. There is no other logical conclusion, Americans have no other affinity with Jews, particularly from a religious viewpoint.

It REALLY is all about oil.

An Arab country CANNOT have weapons, this is the viewpoint of Americans. Oil producing countries must produce cheap oil to feed the American machine. They must be keep dormant and docile, this is also an American viewpoint. Afganistan was bombed because it houses the access to the Caspian Sea, Iraq will be bombed because it has the second largest oil reserve after Saudi Arabia. The Americans are watching Saudi very closely now. The UN resolutions is a crock, America will likely invade in Jan. just like they did in 1991. Russia and France, 2 countries that could of voted against the UN resolutions were promised to have their oil companies liberal access to the Iraqi oil once 'the coast is clear'. This is not internet gossip, this is fact. The Russian mega-conglomerate LUKOIL, which has been operating oil rigs and such in Iraq under a restrained condition is gearing up hugely in anticipation of the oil producing bonanza to come within half a year.

The only problem America faces is that the Arab countries have become aware of the American dilema. A generation ago America produced near half of the world's oil needs, today it imports 53% of its oil. Oil production in the U.S. peaked in 1976 and today with 5% of the world's population comsumes 1/3 of the daily world oil production. Arab countries call Americans 'gluttonous pigs'. Now that the Arab countries clearly understand the situation, and have had taken it in the back for 30 years are now aggressively fighting back. Sept. 11, 2001 is being blamed on a host of Arabian countries, the 'letter' mentions this of course.

I take no sides on this enormus problem but it is clear it is coming and coming quickly I may add. If the US decides to take Iraq by force, three outcomes are feasible. If the US is successful, oil and its byproducts will plunge in price, the economy will boom again. If however, the promised terror by the oppostion is severe, there will be hell to pay. The stock market has stalled in the last year or so because it waits for the outcome of this confrontation. If America is successful, oil will crash, stocks will spike, gold will crash, the US dollar will soar, etc., etc. If America receives a backlash, the reverse is true. If this monsters on both sides of the fence loose their minds there will be no stock market, cash or need for oil.

In all seriousness , we preach of love and morality and good things as such. The Americans are really a 'pushy' lot, they really don't want equality and prosperity for the world, they want propsperity for America. Nobody wants a war, nobody wants buildings blown up.

So what's the right answer? A wise man said to me recently that maybe the Americans could 'pack up their luggage', go home and "pay for the oil" like everyone else does.

-end-

Comments?

Golden Bear (11/26/02; 19:09:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 90351)
Socrates964 (msg#: 90282)
http://moneycentral.msn.com/community/message/board.asp?board=FedWatch
Congratulations Sir Socrates,

your Comrade Ching post has drawn attention in today's Midas report, which has a link to this site...

Cheers.

CoBra(too) (11/26/02; 18:57:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 90350)
Raid the Oil! That's it - The US needs it!
@ Boilermaker ... Are u serious?

Oil funded terrorism?

Considering that the ME was carved up by the victorious allies after WWI, without regard to nationality or any other
considerations - as oil was not the major factor, as it was not known at the time to be of neither there in quantity nor consequence, I believe - the notion of oil funded terrorism you may see ... may become 'a reality'!

Don't get me wrong, Sir, but to tell you the truth, it is a fact that the USA was involved in conquering Iran by the means of a Shah before he had received a bloody nose by the Ayatollah in doing so. ... OK, could go on an' on ... though why should the allmighty US paper $ have the right to extort any or cheap oil (or other resources as it may be) from the rest of the world? - ... and then declaring it's WAT - swat(the louse) or just genie?

This kind of hegemony is the exact basis of hate from the rest of the less developed world fighting the unsustainable US $ (Confetti) supremacy.

IMHO, it's not a war against terror, it's a war of survival against an unjust system of $ despotism, where too many productive countries, states and peoples have been devastated by the same.

If you need another indication of how it will work out - just look at your new dept. of Homeland Security and you may find yourself in a 'concentration camp' - champ.

My humble advice would be - as you've asked for it - forget your imperial policies and get you some gold - before it's not sold anymore - encore!

Damn it , I'm not a Shiit (unproven) nor a Sunnit ... only humbly wee me - cb

Boilermaker (11/26/02; 17:54:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 90349)
Oil Funded Terrorism
The Bush Administration's strategy in the Middle East to fight Islamic terror is to deprive them the means to support the terrorists. This means that countries deemed hostile will be "reconstructed" in a way that their oil-derived cashflow will be "managed" to keep funds from going to "suspect" destinations. For instance, the Gulf War established the precedent for Iraqi oil sales receipts to be spent only for human needs, ie.,food, medicine, etc. This approach appears to have failed.

I expect that the US, if/when it conquer's Iraq will set up a barter system for their oil. One bbl oil exchanged for 5 bushels of US wheat or 1/4 hospital bed made in the US or whatever else cannot be converted to terror. This will establish a captive oil supply for the US without the need for $ exchange. The same treatment may also be in store for Saudi Arabia, Iran or other hostile countries on a future timetable. I think Bush is planning to take them down one at a time.
Like to hear other thoughts on the US strategy for the Middle East; Oil, $, curtailing terror, etc.

Cheers
Boilermaker

Black Blade (11/26/02; 17:31:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 90348)
Will Oil Crisis Break out Once Again?
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200211/26/eng20021126_107480.shtml

Snippit:

Of all the energy resources, the petroleum oil reeks much more of "the politics". In the past few weeks, the prices for crude oil in the international market saw frequent rises and falls, changeable just like the situation "thermometer" in the Gulf Area. The oil price falls whenever Iraq speaks softly while it rises when the wind of war blows hard. According to the estimation by the US Energy Information Administration, next year will see the daily oil needs of the world increase by more than 1.3 million barrels as needed this year because it will see an acceleration in the recovery of global economy. To increase by 1.3 million barrels doesn't mean a very big difference and it is possible for those countries outside the OPEC to produce more than one million barrels daily. Even if the OPEC countries do not increase their oil production there won't be a big shortage of oil supply next year. However, the aforesaid estimation is based on a supposition that there won't be a great commotion in the global situation, especially no big disturbance in the situation in Middle East. If the global economy sees an accelerated recovery next year, calling for a big increase of oil, yet at the very moment the US kicks off its military attack at Iraq, causing a great turmoil in the Middle East there will see a big rise in oil price. Experts of the Center for Strategic and International Studies of the US are of the opinion if Iraq makes a big destruction of the oil extraction equipment at the withdrawal the oil price will shoot up to 80 US dollars a barrel. It is an astronomical price, which will cause a catastrophe to the world economy.

Black Blade: This is a Chinese translation and it shows. Longer term the POO will most likely rise due to increasing costs and smaller targets. However, the specter of war in the Middle East will continue to be a threat of much higher energy prices. Meanwhile US inventories remain at 20 year lows.

Aristotle (11/26/02; 16:58:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 90347)
Belgian, I sure like the way your post meshes with my "Personal Gold Standard"

It's an easy reserve/investment concept to live *live* LIVE by -- a concept for life!

There seems a strange tendency for people to make this realm more complicated than need be.

Gold. Get you some. --- Aristotle

Black Blade (11/26/02; 15:18:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 90346)
Friendly nations pose threat to Americans
http://www.washtimes.com/world/20021126-90497032.htm

Snippit:

KUWAIT CITY � As U.S. troops prepare for war with Iraq, a series of attacks on Americans in Kuwait and elsewhere in the region have sparked fears that even friendly nations are no longer enclaves of safety.

Black Blade: Growing terrorism threats will just be a way of life. We can expect to see many more attacks in the future. The recent Bali blast, tanker bombing and isolated attacks on westerners are just the beginning.

Black Blade (11/26/02; 15:03:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 90345)
OPEC's Silva Says Oil Overproduction Is a `Problem'
http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?ptitle=Energy%20News&s1=blk&tp=ad_topright_energy&refer=topfin&T=markets_box.ht&s2=ad_right1_all&bt=ad_position1_energy&box=ad_box_all2&tag=energy&middle=ad_frame2_energy&s=APeOziBTCT1BFQydz

Snippit:

London, Nov. 26 (Bloomberg) -- OPEC Secretary General Alvaro Silva said overproduction by members of the exporters' group had become a ``problem,'' indicating a desire to take steps to lower crude oil output after a drop in prices. ``Maybe there is some problem of overproduction we need to manage,'' the OPEC official said in a telephone interview from the group's headquarters in Vienna. ``The market is oversupplied.'' Oil ministers from OPEC, which pumps a third of the world's oil, meet on Dec. 12 to set policy for the first quarter, when oil demand declines from its annual peak in the final three months of the year. Members have already begun to reduce output in an effort to bolster prices, independent estimates show. The 10 nations bound by quotas, all except Iraq, pumped 24.3 million barrels a day in November, down 300,000 barrels, or 1.2 percent, from October, said PetroLogistics Ltd., a consultant which tracks oil shipments. They are still exceeding their quota of 21.7 million barrels a day by 12 percent.

Black Blade: It now appears that OPEC may be set to reign in quota cheating to boost prices. Energy costs hit straight at the corporate bottom line and pick consumers pockets.

USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc. (11/26/02; 14:52:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 90344)
Each trend remains a compelling one to bear in mind
http://www.usagold.com/ProductsPage.html

Primary Trends Signal Opportunity for Skillful Investors

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Black Blade (11/26/02; 14:45:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 90343)
State coffers are hit hardl
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/330/business/State_coffers_are_hit_hard+.shtml

Budget worst since WWII; tax hikes loom

Snippit:

ASHINGTON - State budgets are in their worst shape since World War II, prompting legislatures to institute the largest tax increases in a decade, the National Governors Association said yesterday. Soaring health care costs and a sputtering economy that hurt tax collections were blamed for the budget problems. State lawmakers responded with $8.3 billion in tax hikes for the fiscal year that began for most states on July 1. That was the largest dollar increase since 1992, when $15 billion in tax hikes were enacted, the association reported.

Black Blade: Tax increases? Yeah right, that'll get the "economic recovery" going.

A Canadian (11/26/02; 14:38:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 90342)
DOW - NIKKEI RACE TO 3000....
.....is officially underway! Who will lead the plunge? cancerous jap bank stocks? JPM et al whom the surgeons are even afraid to open? The GE light bulb (needs changing)we're really in the (bad) credit business? FORD (Forced O% now Roasted Duck)? Maybe IBM (could you maybe buy a fourth computor for the garage so we could fund pensions that we kinda blew in vegas)? Someone's gonna barf soon cause this party's way too stupid. Gimme historical earnings (15x) and I'll give you a wee bit of my gold (maybe) until then, I just say no to drugs.

Black Blade (11/26/02; 14:18:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 90341)
Debt woes nearing record
http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2002-11-25-bankruptcies_x.htm

Snippit:

With their homes in hock and health insurance premiums soaring, Americans are filing for bankruptcy protection in record numbers. Personal bankruptcy filings in the third quarter jumped to 391,873, up 12% from a year ago. That puts filings on track to surpass last year's record high of 1.45 million. The surge continues a trend that started in the mid-'90s. But the nature of the debt woes has changed. "The amount of borrowing has been rising faster than incomes," says Stuart Feldstein, president of SMR Research. In addition to credit card debt and steep medical bills, many consumers now are bingeing on mortgage debt and home equity loans, putting their homes at risk.

Black Blade: This is getting ridiculous. Debt is at all time records and rising. And it isn't just consumers who are facing devastation, but corporations too are on the ropes as record levels of debt are taking a toll. Today El Paso Natural Gas (EP) debt was downgraded by Moody's sending the share price into a tailspin. El Paso is not alone, but companies everywhere are feeling the pressure over taking on way too much debt. The additional requirements of putting up more cash and assets as collateral will keep enormous pressure on the markets. Not only are consumers filing bankruptcies at a record pace, so are corporations. It is likely to get much worse as corporate spending is likely to fall fast. Consumers who are two thirds of the economy are also pulling in their horns. Spending this Christmas is expected to fall sharply.

As always, get out of debt and stay out of debt, stash enough emergency cash for several months expenses, accumulate Gold and Silver portfolio insurance, and start a storage program of nonperishable food and basic necessities. Look out for number one, because in the final analysis no one else will.

USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals, Inc. (11/26/02; 13:36:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 90340)
International gold -- NO VAT
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canamami (11/26/02; 13:03:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 90339)
reply to sourdough
I'm not sure, but I strongly doubt North Koreans are allowed to own gold.

One advantage of physical over paper money: Corrupt governments just can't counterfeit gold with a printing press, even a sophisticated one.

TownCrier (11/26/02; 12:32:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 90338)
A redo for LeSin
Sorry about this, LeSin, but the article you posted in its entirety clearly had a copyright protection. For fair use I'm providing here what seems to me to be the pertinent excerpt, and am deleting the original post so as not to blatantly violate copyright rules -- for our protection and for yours. Please look to Black Blade as a good example for the appropriate use of excerpts and supporting links to the full text of articles. Thanks.

R.
----------------
LeSin (11/26/02; 04:11:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 90323)
Solution in Mad Powers Grab - Creates a More Subtle Evil Gov-Terror Greater Than any External Treat of Terror
Be Very Afraid - Good bye Free Americans - I mourn "S"

Vol. 8, No. 1981W - The American Reporter - November 24, 2002

THE AMERICAN POLICE STATE IS NOW COMPLETE
by Randolph T. Holhut

DUMMERSTON, Vt. - We got a preview of what the 108th Congress is going to be like with the Republicans' performance in ramming the Homeland Security Act through this month's lame duck session.

...Here's a sampler of what to expect from from the new Department of Homeland Security:

It will have the power to eavesdrop on your phone calls and read your mail. It can call up your Internet service provider and monitor all your e-mail and web browsing habits. It doesn't need a court warrant to do these things, nor will it need one to enter your home or stop you in your car and conduct a search at any time for any reason if there's reason to suspect that you are a "terrorist."

It can walk into your bank and demand to see your checking and savings account statements. It can require credit card companies to turn over your account information. It can go to the library or your local book seller or video store to check on what you've been reading or watching. Again, no search warrant is needed.

You could be held in jail for 30 days or more without filing charges or without even being allowed to tell anyone that you are in custody. Due process or probable cause no longer matters under this law.

Even the definition of the word "terrorist" is being refined. It's not just someone who uses violence to frighten civilians and change how a government functions. Now, under the new law, terrorism is any act "that is a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State or other subdivision of the United States" that "appears to be intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population."

USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals, Inc. (11/26/02; 11:53:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 90337)
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USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc. (11/26/02; 11:35:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 90336)
Don't be fooled by inflatable paper substitutes
http://www.usagold.com/cpm/aboutcpm.html

Gold Today!

Because you haven't heard the phrase "strong dollar policy" for a while.

While the Administration's Treasury Department has fallen mum on the issue, the latest target rate cut (to 1.25%) by the Federal Reserve (with a bank lifeline discount rate at 0.75%!) tells the score loud and clear. In recent Congressional testimony Chairman Greenspan said that there is no "meaningful limit" to the Fed's power to inject money into the economy. And consider the dollar's legacy position as a reserve asset currently being held throughout the world. These are the things that sudden financial crisis and hyperinflations are made of.

In the final analysis -- in times of stress -- paper is only paper.

How solid is your portfolio?

sourdough (11/26/02; 11:25:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 90335)
canamami (11/26/02; 08:27:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 90330)
Can North Korean citizens own gold?
Can they purchase gold in China and bring it into the country?
Can they purchase domestically?
What is the official position on citizens holding gold?

Operative (11/26/02; 10:46:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 90334)
Bankruptcy up 12 percent
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A38000-2002Nov25.html
But hey, CNBC just announced that McDonalds will accept credit cards starting next year. Baby, put on those high heeled sneakers, dust off the credit cards, Im taking you out for burgers and fries tonight!

sector (11/26/02; 10:45:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 90333)
@ Spartacus -- McDonough to the "Rescue" [Forbes.com Piece]
Who IS theat Fed man with the paper bag over his head?
Fed's McDonough-Global economy "badly balanced"
NEW YORK, Nov 25 (Reuters)
[�]
To sustain that gap, the United States must at least attract the same amount of foreign investment it currently relies on, or otherwise risk a decline in the value of the dollar and U.S. assets.

McDonough said rigid labor markets in Europe prevent stronger productivity and economic growth there. He added that it is up to the Japanese to implement the reforms necessary for Japan to pull out of its decade of economic stagnation.

Last week Fed Board Governor Donald Kohn said monetary policy was not the best tool for fixing the current account gap. He said stronger domestic savings and better growth abroad would help to close the deficit.

Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan has said that without the removal of structural rigidities in the economies of Europe and Japan, a full-fledged global economic recovery would be hindered.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

This seems to be another propaganda piece in the push for a Western War on Deflation.

Prodding the Japanese to inflate, inflate, inflate. The "Nationalization" of their sick banks is probably another part of the plan. Also, is the destruction of much of the elder's wealth. There is $600 Million is ready cash in their accounts and mattresses. We'll see how much gold they get before it's over.

McDonough said zip about what the US should do. Kohn says more savings? And better growth abroad? Who�s he kidding? The Fed pumps the Federally Related mortgage pool [The receipts from the 30-year bond "Buy-backs"] to overflowing and then sends mouthpieces to mumble about savings? Define "Growth abroad" as a tool to slow US consumption? These bozos are marking time ahead of a swift devaluation at least in Japan and the US. There is some other gold related objective in mind here.

Will the Japanese inflation be fast or a slow grind? My bet is fast. The rapid convergences all around us suggest it.

If the plan was to slowly float the Japanese economy by liquidity injections, then how will that slow process aid us? The US needs help now. The plunging current account deficit run-rate is at half a trillion each year. Slow doesn't cut it.

Thus the War on Iraq�which is really to secure their cheap-to-produce petroleum�which is really forced upon the President because the G-10 seem have run out of gold to sell against rising world demand. Well�they have some left, but they are to be balking at offering more to the alter of the walking-dead, "Strong Dollar" man.

Hipplebeck (11/26/02; 10:33:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 90332)
The buck stops here
The U S taxpayer now has on his back;
over 6 trillion in gov debt.
central bank guarantee of worldwide derivative pyramid
insurance coverage of unlimited losses due to terrorism
future financing of the war on evil
future financing of baby boom retirees

through derivatives, the U S taxpayer is now insuring the whole world against all risk

Operative (11/26/02; 10:28:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 90331)
Bush to Create Another New Agency
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=564&u=/nm/20021126/ts_nm/bush_aid_dc_3&printer=1
OPM, Other People's Money.
Every time the govenment hands out money, to anyone, for any reason, remember this: those dollars used to belong to you, the hardworking taxpayer.

canamami (11/26/02; 08:27:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 90330)
North Korea replaces dollar with Euro
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-492760,00.html
Talk about promoting a dollar universe :-)

With friends like North Korea, does the Euro need enemies? In fact, one concern is that North Korea will counterfeit huge amounts of Euro notes, as it presently does US dollar notes.

Pizz (11/26/02; 08:03:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 90329)
GDP
Wonder if anyone has reconciled the GDP figures to tax collections. Governments at all levels have budget problems, but GDP is good - outside of a drop in income from capital gains, it doesn't make too much sense to me other than propaganda

Pizz

Spartacus (11/26/02; 07:09:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 90328)
soft spots in GDP
http://www.forbes.com/newswire/2002/11/26/rtr806616.html

NEW YORK, Nov 26 (Reuters) - U.S. Treasury yields dipped on Tuesday as the market focused on the soft spots in a seemingly robust third-quarter growth performance by the United States.

The second reading of third-quarter GDP saw growth revised upward to an annual rate of 4.0 percent from an initial 3.1 percent, above analysts' forecasts of 3.8 percent.

However, business investment was revised to a fall of 0.7 percent from the initial rise of 0.6 percent, a blow to those arguing that firms were finally regaining the confidence to invest.

Also, much of the upward revision to GDP growth came from a jump in inventories, which bond bulls argue was largely involuntary, being a result of demand falling short of expectations. That in turn makes it harder for growth to improve in the current quarter.
------------
"We entered the fourth quarter with demand slowing down, and no doubt businesses will make an effort to reduce inventories. So we think GDP in the fourth quarter will be between zero and 1 percent," said Kevin Logan, an economist at Dresdner Kleinwort Wasserstein. -

Cytek (11/26/02; 06:50:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 90327)
Chapman on Gold
America is sitting on the precipice of failure. We are not defeatists we are realists. We are about to embark on a war that is to enrich conspirators and perhaps end up destroying civilization. As we've known it, the American public and the world has been the victim of the biggest scam in recent history, which is fiat money and perpetual war for perpetual peace to cover the deceit and destruction of that specie. One way or the other we face terrible tribulation. What will be the event that finally triggers the collapse? We don't know. What we do know is there are many things that can cause it that we know of and many things other than what we expect. 75% of the reserves of foreign countries are denominated in dollars. We believe as the economic and financial situation worsens those dollars will be sold for local currencies and gold.

A particular case is China, which has no allegiance to anyone but themselves. A sale of $200 billion and a purchase of gold in that amount would collapse the American economy and send gold soaring. America has its military settled into the Middle East and would be of little use as a destructive force to retaliate against the Chinese and perhaps others. China is moving to back its currency with gold. A nation that saves close to 20% of its income might also be large buyers of gold. As you can see China could easily be the catalyst that brings about higher gold prices and a return to monetary sanity.

JP Morgan sounds like a broken record in their repeated denials that their gold derivatives position is in serious trouble. We released the numbers two weeks ago; they were picked up by professionals in Europe and made it into the media everywhere except in the US, which speaks volumes regarding our controlled media. Everyone in the world knows the GATA story and the rigging of the gold market except the Americans. JPM lies about most everything just as the rest of Wall Street, CNBC and our government does. JPM has no reputation left. Their retort to accusations of serious financial problems is always the same, "false and irresponsible." JPM's risk position is not neutral. They are short gold and every time gold rallies they and others, such as Goldman Sachs, Citigroup and AIG, attack the price. There is absolutely no doubt the group is operating under the protection of the US government and central banks. Of course, we are irresponsible requesting and asking for exposure of their gold derivatives position just like we don�t have a need to know what the �Working Group on Financial Markets� is doing. Everything is a big, dark secret and we know from experience that every time there is a big dark secret something bad or illegal is being covered up. Why would JPM take such a major interest in gold derivatives, especially to the extent of holding two-thirds of all the gold derivatives held by 370 banks plus others that is four times the exposure of Citigroup? There is a reason. Of course, there's a reason and that is market manipulation. You heard it here first: JPM will go under. The government may save them but they'll become insolvent once gold breaks to higher levels. Then we'll find out the real story behind why 15,000 to 29,000 tons of official gold holdings have been sold.

The EU has approved a plan by DeBeers, which controls 60% of the world's rough diamond supply, for diamond sales, which gives dealers more rights.

Gold equities are trading at 1.88 times net asset value, which is close to fair value. The speculative market is long two million ounces versus 1.5 million ounces a week ago. Low interest rates encourage gold purchases and for this reason we expect specs to remain long and producer hedging to be virtually non-existent.

Gold mutual funds have outperformed all others this year providing the best returns since 1995. Moody's, which tracks 20 mutual funds with $3.2 billion in total assets says these gold funds are up 46% on the year, while gold prices were up 15%. Of 2,648 mutual funds covering 26 industry groups, the average fund is off 18% and real estate funds were off 0.2%.

The Russian Central Bank has put into circulation a gold coin denominated as 25 rubles and a silver coin denominated two rubles in the Signs of the Zodiac series, with the image of Sagittarius depicted on both coins. The gold coin, containing 3.11 grams, is hallmarked 999 and the silver coin has 15.55 grams, and is hallmarked 925. 50,000 gold coins and 20,000 silver coins will be put into circulation.

Business for the bullion banks is deteriorating largely because of the fall in hedging business. Producers have become more cautious as gold refuses to fall back to $300.00 an ounce and falling dollar interest rates make it unprofitable for mines to hedge or for speculators to sell the metal short. Producers are covering their hedges, which has put a floor under gold. They have gone from being a net seller of 500 tonnes a year to a net buyer of 500 tonnes a year, or a 1,000-tonnes swing. Investment demand is up 12% for the first half of 2002. The only conclusion one can come to is that in order for gold to stay at current levels of $320 an ounce, central banks have to be sellers of the metal or are going naked short the market, knowing, if they have to, they can cover if they have gold in reserve. The problem is they may not have the gold to cover.

As our President promotes perpetual war for perpetual peace as a cover for global financial and economic collapse, the Gold Dinar has arisen as an Islamic trading vehicle in an attempt to avoid the use of currencies. This would not be a gold standard. It would be a method of trade, which was last used when President Nixon decoupled gold from the dollar on August 15, 1971. Since then all currencies have become fiat except the Swiss franc. Dinar based trading accounts will be settled quarterly in dinars, between trading partners, as we have seen gold can be manipulated, as fiat currencies are, but not easily. Unfortunately gold is the only alternative that has weathered the test of time. A basket of commodities has also been recommended by some experts such as democratic presidential hopeful Lyndon La Rouche, so that is another possibility. Although it's been untried. The move to the dinar will be simple and with the Bush administration's attitude toward Middle Eastern Islamic countries and the hold the dollar has on the Islamic World, we see the dinar as a very viable alternative. We would expect a host of other countries would join the dinar in trade, sick and tired that they may be of dollar imperialism and American elitist military adventurism. This is borne out in Islamic countries such as Saudi Arabia, which has withdrawn hundreds of billions of dollars recently from American investments. The adoption in trade of the gold dinar is forbidden by the IMF and World Bank, thus they would have a major competing currency. This would be a major blow to the plans of the new world order and perhaps the demise of the IMF and World Bank. What you are witnessing is extremely important.

Besides events concerning Iraq, there has been a program of intermediation by the US and UK against Saudi Arabia, which really have them furious. Rand Corporation has declared Saudi Arabia as the mother of all terror and called for the overthrow of their government and other Arab dictatorships. Then there was the CFC Terrorist Financing Report, headed by Hank Greenberg, ex-CIA and president of money launderer AIG. It attacks Islamic charities as financers of al-Qaida. As you can see the Islamic world and many others have much reason to move to a gold dinar and defy the US, UK and its elitists. If it works it could take the entire fiat money system down and, of course, gold would rise considerably higher.

MOSCOW. Nov. 15 (Interfax) - Oleg Vyugin, first deputy chairman of the Central bank, does not rule out that the gold and currency reserves may reach $48 billion before the end of this year. Earlier, the Central Bank projected the gold and hard currency reserves at $44-45 billion at the end of this year. However, they reached $47.1 billion as of November 8. "I think we will maintain this rate in the near future," Vyugin said. He said he does not rule out that the amount of gold and hard currency reserves may increase in December. Vyugin attributed this to favorable conditions on the world oil market.

China has granted approval to its four biggest state banks to import and export gold after opening its first Communist-era gold exchange last month, though quotas have not been fixed, industry sources of Reuters said on Monday. China's foreign trade ministry would allow the Bank of China, Industrial and Commercial Bank, Construction Bank and the Agricultural Bank to import and export gold, they said. But these banks would still have to go through the central People's Bank of China to trade gold as the precious metal is regarded as a strategic resource, they said.

November 26, 2002

Cytek

Belgian (11/26/02; 06:02:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 90326)
@ Le Sin
Your posting on the homeland security act is frighthening and chilling. I am speechless !

Belgian (11/26/02; 04:57:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 90325)
Central Banks and their reserves......
Why do CBs (International institutions) have reserves, US-dollars and Gold ? And wich CBs have sufficient reserves as to be effective for their purposes ? Can the world manage everything, without reserves ? What is the "importance" of the Gold reserves and how effective are these Gold reserves in obtaining results ?

The answers on these questions, all converge on the appropiate amount of Gold (tonnes) that are effective and / or, the valuation of these Gold reserves.

Gold reserves are needed in case that confidence-trust in fiat-confetti is fading away. When your fiat buys less and less and when producers of real goods and services want more and more fiat-confetti in exchange. Is Gold therefore to be considered as the "reserve of last resort" ? If so, why hasn't every individual his own Gold reserve in case it has to compensate for periodical or perpetual loss of confidence in his/her fiat-reserves ? Why is the possession of physical Gold subtly encouraged by some and dis-encouraged by others ?
Why shouldn't every individual be as wise as most of the CBs and hold a correct proportion of Gold reserves ?

Why must the present wave of CB, Gold sales, be so UN-transparent, misleading and controversial ?

Let us bring all possible answers of the above questions into a one-liner :

*Gold is the antipode of all paper*

Is there such a thing as a "universal" paper-trust, thermometer ? And is it mercury that is used in this thermometer or GOLD to indicate the temperature of trust or distrust ?

The Gold-Thermometer at 250$-degrees Celsius, indicated OVER_CONFIDENCE in all paper. The WA unanomiously judged that this over-confidence was totally unjustified and misplaced. That's why they agreed to hall mark the Gold thermometer before too much people should become over-suspicious with a POG reaching absolute freezing point under 200$/ounce.

But the same problem will rise when the Gold thermometer will indicate higher temperatures and erodes the much needed trust/confidence in the shaky cosmos of paper.

All CBs share a common purpose with their Gold reserves : The basic trust-level of their paper in particular and all paper to a lesser degree. Paper being stocks, bonds and currencies, with the dollar as reserve on top of the list.

What happens when too much people disagree with the CB's PAPER_trust-building ? They wish to accumulate Gold and challenge Gold's price-valuation, regarded as optimal by the CBs for the management of their reserves.
And here we come at this significant 325$/335$ price-zone .
In the period '96/'97, when Belgian CB was exchanging the bulk of its Gold reserves for the EMU-entry-ticket, the average price was...330$ ! Belgium was the first one served (helped) for reasons of urgency. A debt to GDP of 120% and 1,000 tonnes needed for the entry.

Is this 325$/335$ price-zone for CB's Gold reserves, seen as an agreed optimum between confidence in paper, building and the absolute minimum that the Gold reserves should be valued as to balance the books ??? We will soon find out when the global detoriation of paper is continuing. Dangerously Declining stock values, rising interest rates and plunging bond valuations and last but not least price-inflation as a result of "doubts" in fiat's purchasing power (intrinsic value), tomorrow.

So many different CBs and institutions (IMF etc) that have Gold reserves in their vaults and sooner or later want to use it for as much different reasons as there are rivalling power-blocks (euro/dollar-camp).

These same Gold reserves undergoing so much different influences plus the fact that Gold is an industrial metal as well and private Gold (reserve) Holders (investors) have also a say in building pressure.

Official holders of Gold reserves can only sell their Gold, ONCE ! Once you have sold and physically "delivered" your
Gold...you will almost 100% certainly, NOT being able to buy it back and replace the delivered physical. So is this particular *nature* of this tangible reserve. Just imagine Belgium/Netherlands/UK/Switzerland, buying back those thousands of tonnes in physical Gold they are supposed to have removed from their vaults and offered at a rock-bottom-price to the jewelry-lovers in this world. GIVE ME A BREAK !

Yes, the whole matter on Gold reserves, remains as un-transparent as can be. And this for a multitude of reasons under wich the two most important are the common cause for paper-trust and the existance of the euro with his suspected euro/gold-concept.

Gold reserves for China/Russia/etc... might have a complete different purpose than the ones in the US. Who ever asked all those different CBs, "why" they need their Gold reserves for ? Does ME-currencies need an illusion of CB-Gold-reserve backing ??? In what do Euroland's reserves differ from the ones in the Americas ? Do Gold producing nations (South Africa/Australia/Canada), need CB Gold-reserves ?

More thoughts on the above are welcomed by the Belgian amateur Gold student. TIA.

silvercollector (11/26/02; 04:42:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 90324)
Cavan Man
I'm checking alot of newspapers this morning and not finding the 'letter'.

Thoughts?

GoldnSilver2002 (11/26/02; 03:10:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 90322)
We should be glad for negative media coverage on gold..it means THEY ARE SCARED!
Well guys,we know the end is near at hand.The american media does not care if conusmers are scammed a few dollars on cheap gold jewelry!Did they care when enron and worldcom robbed investors of billions?!No.Do they care about deficits and the collapse of derivative monster jpm and citibank?NO!?

This is a blatant admission by the cabal the have no mirrors left only smoke to blow.What a desperate attempt!As the bad news flows in the dow soars,pumped up by greenspins money machine(printing) and slowly sucking in those desperate to recover all the money wall st stole!Has wall st reformed?Of course not.They are truly scared,trying desperately to scare people of gold,all the time not knowing people outside the u.s are laughing and taking note.Thank you u.s media,you have done a better job of talking my european friends into gold than i ever could!Got anymore negative media on gold to draw attention to yourself and the shortage of real gold?

n the real world people are hurting and even those who arent are feeling the tax pinch or here in europe the non existent inflation lol.

We live in 2 worlds one the real world the other a mystical,fanciful and non real world...american media!!

Keep up the good word cnn,cnbc you have no idea how many people are getting vindication of the gold story from you,thank you.I knew you guys(us media) were dumb but i take it back,dumb would be an insult to someone who had a brain!

Spartacus (11/26/02; 00:56:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 90321)
Fed's McDonough-Global economy "badly balanced"
http://www.forbes.com/newswire/2002/11/25/rtr805928.html

NEW YORK, Nov 25 (Reuters) - The global economy is "badly balanced," with the United States relying on foreign investors to fund its growth while other countries have become very dependent on the American consumer's willingness to buy foreign goods, Federal Reserve Bank of New York President William McDonough said on Monday.
---------------
A harsh correction in the U.S. current account deficit, which stands at a roughly 5 percent of the country's $10 trillion gross domestic product, would drive the United States into "one hell of a recession" that could likely drag the entire global economy down with it, McDonough said. -

Operative (11/26/02; 00:26:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 90320)
US Treasury Chief Defends Blair and Brown
http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1037872285683&p=1012571727088
Count the number of times "stability" is used in the article. Also, Brown asks, what more do the people want?"
My guess would be thier gold back that brown dumped on the markets at low prices? Oh, and less taxes.

Operative (11/26/02; 00:20:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 90319)
LVMH Sues Morgan Stanley Over Research
LVMH Sues Morgan Stanley Over Research
Mon November 25, 2002 11:38 PM ET
NEW YORK/LONDON (Reuters) - Morgan Stanley said on Tuesday it had been sued by the world's top luxury retailer LVMH for
allegedly unfair stock analysis, portending a further row over conflicts of interest in investment banking.

The lawsuit, thought to have been filed this month in the Paris Commercial Court, alleges Morgan Stanley's research of LVMH was
biased by its banking relationship with rival retailer Gucci Group NV, a person familiar with the matter said.

The court challenge is the latest twist in a long-running dispute between Bernard Arnault of LVMH and Gucci Chief Executive
Domenico De Sole.

Morgan Stanley said it would vigorously defend itself.

"Morgan Stanley categorically rejects LVMH's claim and stands by the integrity of its research," the bank said in a statement.

Officials at LVMH and Gucci were not immediately available for comment.

The suit coincides with talks between Wall Street's biggest firms, the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission and state regulators to
resolve disputes over the independence of investment banks' equity research.

Regulators are investigating whether equities analysts at the banks deliberately misinformed investors about certain stocks in order to
win banking business from other companies.

The LVMH lawsuit is understood to name Morgan Stanley luxury goods analyst Claire Kent, the source said.

A Morgan Stanley spokeswoman declined further comment on the suit or the firm's relationship with Gucci.

Morgan Stanley was an underwriter of Gucci's 1995 initial public offering and has advised the company since.

Arnault last year abandoned efforts to gain control of Gucci and sold his existing stake in the company to French firm Pinault Printemps
Redoute.

ha_tey_o (11/26/02; 00:14:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 90318)
Re: Gold Jewelry Fraud

After watching the news coverage on the gold jewelry fraud, it seems to me that if the PTB were trying everything they could to discourage people from buying gold, what better way than to make people suspect of the gold jewelry on the market? I wonder how many people after seeing the news are reconsidering gold jewelry purchases now?

Operative (11/26/02; 00:02:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 90317)
Worst Year For States Budgets Since WWII
http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAF4SDGZ8D.html
If the DOW does not crash at least 500 points tomorrow, I am going to begin to think that the markets are manipulated, as crazy an idea as that may be.

The article is just full of recovery news, read it, you will like it. Make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

ViewYesterday's Discussion.

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