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Welcome to the USAGOLD Gold Discussion Archives. The archives of this gold discussion forum are a treasure trove of information to educate investors about protecting their wealth through portfolio diversification with private gold ownership. The discussion forum also covers the wider issues of the past, present, and future role of gold in international monetary policy and the dynamics of the modern gold markets...   (Discussion Forum Hall of Fame) (The Gold Trail) ("Thoughts!" by ANOTHER)   The opinions posted by all guests are expressly their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the management or staff of USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals. The hosting of the public discussion shall therefore not be construed as an endorsement by USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals of any of the opinions posted here.

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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 8/25/2002
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

(Yesterday's Discussion.)

Blackjack (8/25/02; 23:49:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 83683)
Oz Gold companies closed out AU$1 Billion in hedges June quarter
http://www.thewest.com.au/20020826/business/tw-business-home-sto69226.html
AMID falling mine output, Australia's gold miners have made a concerted effort to sustain bullion prices above the crucial $US300 an ounce barrier, closing out $1 billion in hedging contracts during the June quarter.
According to Australian Gold Council data released at the weekend, hedging by Australian gold miners fell by 1.75 million ounces to 22.6 million ounces in the quarter, a fall of nearly 8 per cent over the March period, representing the sixth consecutive quarterly reduction in hedging.
___________________
Bullish news


Black Blade (8/25/02; 23:46:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 83682)
Real estate theory repeating itself?
http://www.nationalpost.com/financialpost/story.html?id={C38619F9-E9CC-4A94-A79A-6514DEC3A586}
Equities could be tracing path of '80s housing market

Snippit:

A senior Bay Street executive recently told a story that ought to send chills up the spine of anyone who makes his living from the stock market. His name must be withheld, because his shareholders would probably kill him. Call it the real estate theory. It's a well-known tale by now. In the mid-1980s, a family in Toronto could buy an average home for about $110,000. Within a few years, a speculative frenzy drove home prices up 150%, to almost $275,000 by the end of the decade. Then the bubble popped, and house prices began a torturous dive (falling an average of 27%). It destroyed some people financially, but its greatest impact was a psychological one. By the mid-1990s, the executive recalls, almost everyone on the streets of Canada's largest city would tell you it was impossible to make money from real estate. It took 13 years for home prices to recover.

The executive's theory is that what happened in real estate is repeating itself in equities: We are witnessing the birth of a new generation of people who believe it's impossible to make money from stocks. The numbers in the 2002 TSX shareowners' study seem to indicate he is right. The study shows declining levels of stock ownership, but brings especially bad news for the mutual fund industry. Thirty-one per cent of non-shareowners say they will "definitely not" buy funds in the next three years, up from 18%. Of shareowners, a majority say they don't plan to increase their investments in funds soon. It's easy enough to see their reasons. Why pay a professional 2.5% a year to burn through your savings when you can do it yourself for free?


Black Blade: This is quite an interesting theory. Real Estate cratered, then stocks cratered, and now the real estate looks to crater yet again.




Blackjack (8/25/02; 23:44:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 83681)
Gold production fell 8% in Oz despite higher prices
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/08/26/1030053012564.html
Declining exploration in Australia's gold industry is continuing to hurt production, with gold output dropping a further 8 per cent in the year to June 30.

The latest survey, by industry statistics group Surbiton Associates, has revealed that Australian gold production fell to 272.5 tonnes last year, despite local producers receiving the strongest Australian dollar gold prices in many years.

"Gold production has continued to fall from its peak of 318 tonnes in 1997-98," Surbiton managing director Dr Sandra Close said. "The drop in exploration expenditure over the last five years has been a key factor in this downward trend."

Paradoxically, declining gold production comes at a time where the spot price continues to hold above $US300 an ounce.


Blackjack (8/25/02; 23:38:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 83680)
Citigroup getting shaky
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/08/26/1030053013005.html
Firstly Citigroup is huge, the seventh biggest listed US company, with a market capitalisation of $US178 billion despite having shed $US84 billion of value in the market shakeout this year.

More importantly, it is the most powerful example of a global one-stop finance shop to have emerged since 1999, when America's Glass-Steagall Act was repealed and US banks and investment banks were allowed to merge for the first time since the Great Depression.
______________
Can Citigroup withstand scrutiny?



Waverider (8/25/02; 23:33:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 83679)
Gandalf
You truuuuuly are a delight!

Gandalf the White (8/25/02; 23:18:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 83678)
Oh, IF I could spell this ENGLISH language !
TRULY rather than "truely" !
<;-)

Gandalf the White (8/25/02; 23:15:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 83677)
Sir Zhisheng's response !
Zhisheng (8/25/02; 20:02:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 83660)
Celestial Denial
--
"Do you mean that it is NOT yourself?", says a surprised Gandalf.
==
You have caused me to lose much face!
****** I truely hope that is NOT TRUE !
Shall I ready myself for "HARI KARI" ?

Nevertheless I WILL extend to you two guesses of my own:
(1) Vielleicht die Weltkommunismus lauert dahinter?

NOTE -- Translated for Sir Mikal ---
(1) Perhaps the World Communism lurks behind it?
NICHT!! Ich denke nicht, dass "sie" sind, schmerzt das!

(2) Keneng mai jin de shi wode taitai zhu zai dalu de hao ji nian iqian li hun de lao zhangfu.
My Hong Kong contacts are checking this one out as we speak!
My report will be forthcoming directly. (IF my Crystal Ball does not get "Clouds" in this Valley.)

Ni hao ma !
<;-)

Black Blade (8/25/02; 23:10:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 83676)
Housing Market May Have Peaked
http://www.msnbc.com/news/798215.asp?0si=-&cp1=1

Snippit:

MONDAY’S REPORTS ARE EXPECTED to show that new and existing-home sales were relatively flat in July compared with June, although they remain at near-record levels. But the economy's weak growth after years of strong housing demand makes it likely that housing activity will taper off over the next year, especially as mortgage rates gradually rise, industry experts say. "We will gradually over time see a downshift in the overall level of housing activity, which has been absolutely phenomenal," said Frank Nothaft, chief economist of mortgage giant Freddie Mac. "We're going to see it decline to only very good." Although housing activity is expected to remain at historically strong levels, the likelihood that it will trend lower next year is one reason the nation's gross domestic product is unlikely to grow at the usual brisk rates seen after a recession. Housing directly and indirectly accounts for about 20 percent of GDP, Nothaft figures.

But while high-end homes may be searching for buyers, few analysts expect any decline in average home prices, which are expected to rise more than 6 percent this year, according to Nothaft. That's a step back from the average 8 percent of the past two years, but still makes housing a better bet than the tumbling stock market. That is a good thing too, as home equity is the one component of household net worth that has continued to rise over the past two years. Don Straszheim, of Straszheim Global Advisors, sees little evidence of a housing bubble except perhaps in a few local markets. "If we would see home prices crack, and homeowners would see the value of that asset shrivel, it would be a big deal and would be extraordinarily unpleasant," he said.


Black Blade: I think a lot of people are going to be very unpleasantly surprised in coming months. When the bubble bursts, there will be a lot of people left standing without a chair when the music stops. In other words, there are likely to be a lot of people left with houses declining in value while still left to pay off huge mortgages.



Black Blade (8/25/02; 22:37:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 83675)
Too Much Supply, Too Little Demand
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58181-2002Aug24.html

Businesses Have Few Incentives to Expand or Hire, Economists Say

Snippit:

To understand why the U.S. economy can't seem to muster a stronger recovery, it helps to look for clues in Victorville, Calif., where 500 unused and unwanted passenger jets -- some of them brand new -- sit wingtip to wingtip in the desert.

Or in Detroit, where the Big Three continue to churn out large numbers of passenger cars that they sell at little or no profit, just to keep their factories busy.

Or in nearly every major metropolitan area, where office vacancy rates are still rising after 18 months, and have reached 25 percent in Dallas, 24 percent in Raleigh-Durham, N.C., and 18 percent in San Francisco.

But perhaps the best explanation can be found in those falling prices shoppers find for clothing, televisions, hotel rooms and cellular phone service. While the bargains are great for American consumers, they are being paid in the form of continued corporate layoffs, lackluster stock prices and a sky-high trade deficit -- in short, an economy that's having trouble building up a head of steam.

Economists refer to this phenomenon as overcapacity, which is really nothing more than too much supply chasing too little demand. And it can be found these days across a wide swath: agriculture, autos, advertising, chemicals, computer hardware and software, consulting, financial services, forest products, furniture, mining, retail, steel, textiles, telecommunications, trucking, and electric generation, just to mention a few. In most every case, it is accompanied by prices that are flat or falling.


Black Blade: It is called "Recession". In fact next month the auto sector will end the zero finance option. Telecoms continue to go tits up, and banking institutions are facing liquidity demands. More layoffs are coming and both consumer and corporate spending will continue to slow. This article is quite good and worth reading.



Waverider (8/25/02; 22:28:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 83674)
Leigh
Thanks Leigh, you're a sweetheart! I have been reviewing some of the archives when I've time and see that you've participated here almost from the inception of the forum. When you have a moment - how did you become interested in Gold? I'm curious because I meet so few people (and women in particular) with an interest in Gold. At the Gold Conference in Vancouver in June, I could count the women there on one hand. Cheers,
Waverider

TownCrier (8/25/02; 22:24:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 83673)
miner49er, have a look at this as you contemplate the future of "free gold"
http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/irforum/papers/morav-IIIC.html
Excerpt (although, probably meaningless out of context):

"...the most prominent general theories of international cooperation rest on the notion that efficient interstate bargaining is costly. This is true not only of the application of coercive force; even within peaceful negotiations over international cooperation, commonly observed among OECD member countries, information and ideas are scarce and costly commodities, often asymmetrically distributed. Hence the transaction costs of negotiation -- the cost of locating efficient agreements and resolving distributional conflicts -- are high.

"...the informational costs of overcoming interstate bargaining problems are not necessarily as high as functional theories of international regimes and law or standard negotiation analysis assume.

[key point here] "...The costs of generating and distributing the information needed to identify and negotiate efficient interstate bargains are usually low enough (relative to the stakes) to assure that states are "naturally" well-informed and bargaining efficient. Gains are not, typically, "left on the table.""


And here's another pearl:

"...there is good reason to believe that the informational costs of efficient domestic bargaining (whether among individuals, politicians, firms, party factions, or interest groups) are many orders of magnitude higher than those incurred in conducting an interstate negotiation. Individuals are arguably more numerous, less well-endowed, more specialized, less transparent, and often less secure of property rights than states."

Thoughts that make you go, "Hmmmmm...."

R.

Black Blade (8/25/02; 21:33:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 83672)
Re: Towncrier - CRB Bridge Index
http://test.crbindex.com/crb/quotes_crbcomp.asp

Bridge went bankrupt last year and were up for sale. It appears that Rueters "bagged em and tagged em". When I don't know as frankly I did not notice. Anyway, it is an additional link I keep on hand for when the other gold price sites are down. Earlier this year several posters were looking for other backup sites and I mentioned this one. At the time Rueters was not part of the team. So the takeover must have been fairly recent. Cheers!

- Black Blade

TownCrier (8/25/02; 21:22:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 83671)
Question for anyone
I must be out of it altogether, just now doing a double-take on the INO quotes table that we run on some of our pages, including the forum.

When exactly did the Bridge CRB index become the Reuters CRB index???

Rhetorical: How long since the (college football) Orange Bowl was just the plain old Orange Bowl?

R.

Black Blade (8/25/02; 21:15:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 83670)
Re: Towncrier

You ask: "Can you recall the last time the election of a new German administration coincided politically with just such a changing of the guard in the top spot at the proudly independent Bundesbank?"

That's a good question. Shroeder almost makes one long for the days of Willi Brandt (yikes!). I believe that Stoiber is the most or for that matter the only "real" conservative German politician to have a shot at taking over as Chancellor. If he does and he builds a coalition of support we could see a change at the Bundesbank. At the very least any talk of gold sales would be quashed from the top and at best Welteke would be under pressure to leave and perhaps actually face the prospect of being ejected by those higher up. Remember that this is the first time that a "real" change appears to be in the works since the end of the second world war – all the rest were simply variations of the same theme. This could be the real test of Bundesbank independence. At least that's my take on the situation. Perhaps "Cobra (too)" has a take on this as he is a bit closer to the action. Cheers!

- Black Blade


sector (8/25/02; 21:08:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 83669)
Is This Big Enough to march off to war? Bin Laden in Baghdad?
http://www.newsmax.com
Sunday Aug. 25, 2002; 9:41 p.m. EDT

Bin Laden in Baghdad?

A report that senior members of Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda terrorist network have sought refuge in Iraq gave rise Sunday to speculation that bin Laden himself may have been granted sanctuary by Saddam Hussein.

"You've seen an anonymous defense official quoted in the Washington Post indicating that what's going on inside Iraq includes possibly names of al Qaeda officials that you would recognize," said "Fox News Sunday" commentator Juan Williams.

"I guess that might mean bin Laden is hiding in Iraq," he added.

A report in Wednesday editions of the Post quoted several unnamed Pentagon officials saying that a number of high ranking al Qaeda members have been mentioned in recent classified intelligence reports as being in Iraq.

"There are some names you'd recognize," one defense official told the paper.

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld declined to debunk the story during a press conference last week, where he maintained, "There are al Qaeda in a number of locations in Iraq."

Rumsfeld, however, declined to elaborate, explaining cryptically, "I suppose that, at some moment, it may make sense to discuss that publicly. It doesn't today."

On Friday, Senate Minority Leader Trent Lott hinted that he had seen evidence that Hussein was sheltering al Qaeda members.

"I'm not going to say that I have information to that effect right now, but I have reason to believe that's probably true," he told nationally syndicated radio host Sean Hannity.
++++++++++++++++++++++

A necessary siege of Baghdad complete with round-the-clock, weeks long artillery barrages into civilian centers is not something that the world will easily accept...especially with sattelite television camera crews on the receiving end beaming up the devastation in real-time.

The military tactics of such an adventure are fraught with danger and brimming with unintended consequences...as all wars are. There had better be a really BIG reason for such an adventure.

The longer the Admin stalls on providing it, the riskier things get for the American CEO.

TownCrier (8/25/02; 20:42:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 83668)
Black Blade, a moment of your time, please?
Ive seen a few of your recent suggestions (as in your #83662) to Buba president Welteke getting the "vaudeville cane" in conjunction with a political change in the German government.

Can you recall the last time the election of a new German administration coincided politically with just such a changing of the guard in the top spot at the proudly independent Bundesbank? I ask simply because, for the life of me, I cannot.

TIA

Randy

sector (8/25/02; 20:36:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 83667)
Caven Man - More on the Saudi Funding of Al Qaeda
http://www.drudgereport.com/flash.htm
It wasn't featured on this evening's NBC Nightly News...just a rerun of a post 9/11 DateLine NBC Story on Saudi potentates at Ground Zero [Many months old].

The Drudge Piece is quoted in full below in my original post here.

The SPR is being restocked feverishly, perhaps in the realization that we must go it alone in a military engagement.

As for the significance of the Saudi funding connection to Al Qaeda, complete with meetings in Khandahar between top Saudis and the Taliban, it remains to be seen next week.

I am more interested in what the Administration does with this information and when they do it. If they issue statements tomorrow AM then we can be sure that the document releases in the 9/11 litigation were part of an orchestrated anti-Saudi propaganda plan that includes an ME war. If the Admin ignores this release they probably weren't involved in its release.

After former SECSTATE James Baker added his voice to the "Give Iraqi WMD Inspectors a Chance" choir, there are now only TWO possible outcomes to the Bush Iraq war preparations:

(1) The President is a complete dunce for allowing the war talk and plans to progress to the brink without even an INTERNAL ideological consensus...OR

(2) Mr. Bush knows a BIG something that all those learned academics and foreign policy experts who oppose him don't know.

The Saudi funding of Al Qaeda is only a small part of that putative knowledge. Alone it isn't big enough. See, the thing that the President would reveal needs to be so big that all these critics and go-slowers fall back and utter..."Wow! I didn't know that! Why we have NO ALTERNATIVE but to attack Saddam now that THIS [Fill in the blank knowledge] has been revealed!"

Such a thing if big enough, would erase all opposition and unite the internal support for an Iraq war. What that something IS, I am afraid, is a known attack plan on a major population center with a crude WMD. They can't admit such a thing without seeming completely impotent or creating a total panic.

I really hope that I'm dead wrong on this and the President is just a fool and an idiot for letting things progress so far. Rumsfeld would join him with a big, white cone perpetually on his head also.


mikal (8/25/02; 20:28:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 83666)
Re: Foreign language use on forum
Is this acceptable decorum now?

BILLYG (8/25/02; 20:27:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 83665)
Good Interview With Carl Swenlin (DecisionPoint.com)
http://www.decisionpoint.com/interviews/020823_iossif.html
This interview with Carl Swenlin, founder of DecisionPoint.com, was conducted by Ike Iossif of AegeanCapital, Inc.

Very Good, Well worth the time. BillyG

TownCrier (8/25/02; 20:23:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 83664)
Well written perspective on the UK-euro decision, worth a read
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/euro/comment/0,9236,778725,00.html
HEADLINE: If Brown wants to take over, he'll have to back the euro -- The longer Britain stays outside the eurozone, the greater the penalties


Key point (please read the article to gain the proper context):

"...Brown sees his own fortunes as being inextricably bound to those of the British economy. It would benefit him very little to take a decision that precipitated Blair's early exit if it also meant sacrificing his carefully cultivated reputation for economic competence."

---( see url)----

No further comment needed.

R.

TownCrier (8/25/02; 20:13:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 83663)
Building a future
http://www.tehrantimes.com/Description.asp?Da=8/26/02&Cat=9&Num=11
HEADLINE:   Iran, India to Expand Economic Ties

TEHRAN -- Indian Deputy Foreign Minister for Economic Affairs Rajiv Sikri on Sunday referred to his talks with Iran's officials on transfer of gas to his country as 'positive'.

In his meeting with Kamal Kharrazi, Sikri noted that Iran and India can utilize their vast economic resources to boost mutual ties.

He said New Delhi attaches great importance to its cooperation with Tehran.

-------(more at url)-----

Terms of payment on balance of trade between these two will forever be... DOLLARS, anyone??? Don't hold your breath on that one.

R.

Black Blade (8/25/02; 20:09:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 83662)
Schroeder Fails to Win TV Debate as Stoiber Shines
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/nm/20020825/wl_nm/germany_election_dc_3&e=5

Snippit:

BERLIN (Reuters) - Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder was knocked into the defensive in Germany's first U.S.-style TV election debate Sunday as rival Edmund Stoiber performed better than expected in a battle commentators declared a draw. Schroeder, often described as the most telegenic politician Germany has ever had, failed to throw the knock-out punch he had been seeking against the media-shy Stoiber, who surprised many with a string of aggressive, fluently delivered attacks. The chancellor adopted a statesmanlike calm, smiling disdainfully as Stoiber accused him of "irresponsible" foreign policies. Stoiber assailed Schroeder for the "national disaster" of high unemployment which lowered Germans' living standards. Schroeder appeared tense at times and displayed none of his usual wit in the contest against the Bavarian state premier, a dour master of facts and figures.


Black Blade: Ernst Welteke, president of Germany's central bank, the Bundesbank may be out of a job soon. The anti-gold socialist/communist may be removed after his boss Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder is tossed out of office in a couple of months. The wildly popular Stoiber is extending his lead in the polls as the German people are becoming ever more disgusted with the socialist Schroeder. This also means that the vaguely coherent mumblings of Welteke about selling the peoples Gold will also come to an end when he is thrown out on the street as the Stoiber administration takes over.



TownCrier (8/25/02; 20:04:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 83661)
Stepping toward "free gold"...
http://www.thewest.com.au/20020826/business/tw-business-home-sto69226.html
HEADLINE: Gold miners cut back hedge book

(The West Australian) -- AMID falling mine output, Australia's gold miners have made a concerted effort to sustain bullion prices above the crucial $US300 an ounce barrier, closing out $1 billion in hedging contracts during the June quarter.

According to Australian Gold Council data released at the weekend, hedging by Australian gold miners fell by 1.75 million ounces to 22.6 million ounces in the quarter, a fall of nearly 8 per cent over the March period, representing the sixth consecutive quarterly reduction in hedging. ...the ninth reduction in local hedging out of the past 10 quarters.

...the practice [i.e., hedging], which artificially inflates supply, is often blamed for keeping a lid on gold prices by sending a negative impression about producer sentiment.

-----(click url for more)-----

Meanwhile, mine output is reported to have fallen by 8% over the past year. As a stock investor, what will you have to show for your "ownership"? Dwindling mine life, or will potential profits/dividends be foregone in the desperate attempt to extend corporate life though exploration for new reserves?

Physical gold is your bird in the hand. Give the fine folks at Centennial a call when the markets open tomorrow.

R.

Zhisheng (8/25/02; 20:02:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 83660)
Celestial Denial
Gandalf the White
"Do you mean that it is NOT yourself?", says a surprised Gandalf.
You have caused me to lose much face! Nevertheless I WILL extend to you two guesses of my own:
(1) Vielleicht die Weltkommunismus lauert dahinter?
(2) Keneng mai jin de shi wode taitai zhu zai dalu de hao ji nian iqian li hun de lao zhangfu.






Black Blade (8/25/02; 19:50:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 83659)
Rift With The Saudis
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/editorial/outlook/1545043


Snippit:

Matters are perhaps coming to a head because we are approaching the first anniversary of the heinous acts that took place on Sept. 11, perpetrated by 19 terrorists, 15 of whom were Saudi Arabians and all of whom were guided in their actions by another former Saudi Arabian, Osama bin Laden. The government of Saudi Arabia has apologized repeatedly and expressed its profound sorrow both for what happened and for the fact that so many Saudis were involved. But endless analysis of such criminal madness can only lead us to conclude that Bin Laden involved other Saudi Arabians in order to engineer exactly the consequences that we are now witnessing: a growing rift between our two countries that could soon, and entirely unnecessarily, develop into enmity. Bin Laden himself stated that his avowed intent was to orchestrate not just attacks on the United States but also the overthrow of the Saudi government.


Black Blade: An interesting take by Hassan Yassin, a Saudi Arabia businessman and oil consultant. The Wahhabis have a stranglehold on Saudi education and the majority of the people. Unfortunately the Saudi royals have done nothing to reign in these Wahhabi clerics and to take over the "alleged" educational system (madrassas). As a result we will see a growing rift between the US and Saudi, as well as more terrorist acts that will include Saudi adherents of Wahhabism. Arab businessmen would be fools to keep their investments in the United States under current circumstances. The US has frozen the investment accounts of other Middle Eastern investors, institutions, and foreign countries in the past. They will do so again. The smartest thing that these people can do is bail out of the US and seek safety elsewhere (including precious metals).



slingshot (8/25/02; 19:42:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 83658)
The Invisible Hand
Siege Engine
Hello Invisible Hand.

Siege Engine is the name of the story to Free Gold.
A siege engine was a primative devise use in an attack on a castle. Catapults, rolling towers, battering rams and trebuchets were some of that eras machines. The story itself was suppose to be a short one but has now evolved into something complex. May it provide some entertainment to everyone.
Slingshot----------------<>

Sierra Madre (8/25/02; 19:35:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 83657)
Hmmmm...do you and I have a country?


I found this line by following a link provided at a neighboring forum:
"As a general principle, I should put it that a man's country is where the things he loves are most respected."
- "Albert Jay Nock, Forgotten Man of the Right", essay by Jeffrey A. Tucker.

Maybe on some other planet?

Sierra

Flaccus (8/25/02; 19:13:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 83656)
Meditation
Honor flees
when empire reaches its height.
And while there is a lesson in all things
the one found here
remains lost on trusting souls
who cast their lot with the wind,
and count profits in empty hands.

Exegi monumentum aere perrenius.

The Invisible Hand (8/25/02; 19:09:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 83655)
Confirmation of sector's msg#: 83541 of 08/22/02?
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20020825/wl_nm/russia_usa_dc_6

Sector argued that there is only one reason so far to explain the Administration's apparently illogical Iraqi War plans:
The President already HAS tangible evidence of a September
11, 2002 terrorist WMD attack on the US and is pre-positioning
retaliatory forces. He can't warn the population of the effected city.
He has cried wolf too many times. Besides a warning would delay
what he really wants...a clear provacation from Iraq and Saudi Arabia.

So the Administration is trying to create more enemies:

U.S. Rebukes Russia over Georgia Bombing
Sun Aug 25, 4:57 AM ET
By Adam Entous
Snip:
LAS CRUCES, New Mexico (Reuters) - The United States rebuked Russia Saturday for alleged indiscriminate bombing in north Georgia, saying attacks violated Georgian sovereignty and could escalate tensions in the Caucasus.


CAVAN MAN
Here's sector's URL
http://www.drudgereport.com/flash.htm
hurry, it will expire, here's the date it was created
SAUDIS PAID BIN LADEN HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS
Sun Aug 25 2002 10:26:26 ET

SIEGE ENGINE
Can anybody please explain me what that means?

Sierra Madre (8/25/02; 19:08:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 83654)
More "Wag the Dog"
Just MVHO, but this whole "US Lawsuit by lawyers representing the families of 9-11 victims" is a slick operation to intimidate or corral the Saudis. Smells to me of more extortion like that brought to bear so skillfully on the Swiss banks, alleging Jewish money.

I don't believe anything any more, on face value. (Just show me the gold, please).

Media and show business and politics are so perfectly utilized to mold opinion. What we see on T.V. MUST be the truth, right?

This whole Lawsuit against the Saudis stinks of being an operation run by the secret agencies of the U.S. Gov't.
Cameras running all the time required, all out. Repeatedly on the news hours. That doesn't happen by accident!

Sierra


Gandalf the White (8/25/02; 18:49:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 83653)
HE could tell by my Pointie HAT ! <;-)
Gold STILL above US$300.
slingshot (8/25/02; 18:23:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 83651)
Siege Engine
===
GREAT continuation there, Sir Slingshot !
Looks as if I will not be up to TOTAL capacities for a while, as the prognosis ten days ago, was 5 to 6 WEEKS !
NAW !! Give me ANOTHER couple weeks and then --
-
While Lady Waverider stirs the Crabapple Jelly, she is PLANNING ---
=
"FREE GOLD"
<;-)


Black Blade (8/25/02; 18:33:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 83652)
Maybe it's good the Saudis are taking their cash from the U.S.
http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/PEstory/TGAM/20020823/RWASH/Headlines/headdex/headdexBusiness_temp/40/40/86/

Snippit:

Think for a moment about the U.S.-Saudi Arabian relationship. There is perhaps no partnership anywhere on the planet that is so rooted in naked economic self-interest. The Saudis, who sit atop the largest reserves of oil in the world, keep prices and supplies relatively steady, while letting foreign producers tap their resources. U.S. military might, in turn, shields the Saudi regime and its ever-expanding oil wealth from the clutches of rival powers in a perilous region. Now, however, this stark and fragile deal -- sometimes called a "special" relationship by U.S. diplomats -- appears to be on the rocks.

A report this week in the Financial Times says rich Saudi investors have yanked about $200-billion (U.S.) out of the United States in recent months to protest growing anti-Saudi sentiment. Even discounting the enormous political implications of the trend, the economic fallout would be powerful. If true, the report suggests that assets equal to nearly half the entire U.S. current account deficit have fled the country. And much of that money may have been swapped into non-U.S.-dollar-denominated securities, such as euros, or repatriated to Saudi Arabia. Saudi investors are believed to have $800-billion socked away in various assets around the world. Before the apparent repatriation began, experts estimated that as much as 70 per cent, or nearly $600-billion, was in U.S. stocks, bonds and real estate.

Many Saudis are said to be miffed about a growing wave of anti-Saudi comments, from inside and outside the Bush administration. The Financial Times pointed, for example, to Saudi anger over a recent Pentagon-sponsored briefing at which Rand Corp. analyst Laurent Murawiec lashed out at the Saudi regime. "In the Arab world, violence is not a continuation of politics by other means," Mr. Murawiec bluntly told U.S. officials. "Violence is politics, politics is violence. . . . The Saudis are active at every level of the terror chain, from planners to financiers, from cadre to foot soldier, from ideologist to cheerleader. Saudi Arabia supports our enemies and attacks our allies." The Saudis' nervous tension turned to outright fear earlier this month, however, when hundreds of families of victims of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks filed a $1-trillion lawsuit, naming three members of the Saudi royal family and the country's largest bank as defendants. The suit accuses them and others of financing the al-Qaeda terrorist network.



Black Blade: Not that there is no hard evidence that the exodus of Saudi cash has yet begun though the Financial Times (of London) has claimed that there has been a withdrawal of over $200 billion so far. Saudi billionaire Prince Alwaleed bin Talal has denied that any members of the royal family are exiting the United States, noting that he's actually bulking up on U.S. assets. However, that could change. Those who are named in the lawsuit are likely very nervous about the loss of their wealth. Islam looks at Gold as money (much like many other religions including Christians and Jews). A large withdrawal of Arab funds or price increases for oil will absolutely cream the US dollar and the stock markets.



slingshot (8/25/02; 18:23:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 83651)
Siege Engine
Gold above $300.00
Gandalf the White and Shadowfax have traveled deep into the Valley of Clouds without seeing a soul. Nightfall would soon come and Gandalf made camp alongside a stream. He gathered firewood and lit a small fire to warm himself against the night air. He then boiled water to make a cup of tea. Pouring himself some he could hardly believe the world was in such turmoil as he was in a peaceful setting. Gandalf gave Shadowfax some oats and talked to him kindly as old friends would do. Soon it would be time for sleep and an early rise to continue his search. That would not come to pass as a stirring in the brush and the movement of small stones anounced the arrival of a stranger. Both Shadowfax and Gandalf strained to see into the darkness when suddenly a man appeared in light of the firelight.

Hello. May I join you and enjoy the warmth of your fire'said the man. He was dressed like a traveler. His face well weathered and his clothes shown the wear of many a mile.
You may, said Gandalf and offered him a cup of tea.

The two men sat down at the edge of the fire, drinking their tea.

Do you know this valley? asked Gandalf. I have been through it many times, replied the traveler.

What is your name if I may ask? said the traveler. Gandalf the White and yours. Bonfir, in a steady voice and his attention was on Gandalfs reactions.

What do you seek Gandalf the White, for this is a rarely traveled place. In a momment the atmosphere became charged from the tone of his voice.

I seek those of the Valley of Clouds and will ask for their help. My quest is to remove the darkness that covers this land, replied Gandalf.

There was a pause and Bonfir spoke. If I take you to those you seek and they refuse, what then?

I would have done what I set out to do and my quest will take longer. I fear many more will be hurt without their help, said Gandalf.

Bonfir smiled. I will take you to them tomorrow wizard and they will have as many questions for you as you have for them.

Gandalf thought, I never mention the word wizard.

Lady Waverider was forming her plan and wished Gandalf would return soon.

Black Blade (8/25/02; 18:10:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 83650)
Why Do Saudis Hate Americans?
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saudi/analyses/wahhabism.html


A few excerpts:

For more than two centuries, Wahhabism has been Saudi Arabia's dominant faith. It is an austere form of Islam that insists on a literal interpretation of the Koran. Strict Wahhabis believe that all those who don't practice their form of Islam are heathens and enemies. Critics say that Wahhabism's rigidity has led it to misinterpret and distort Islam, pointing to extremists such as Osama bin Laden and the Taliban.

The religious curriculum in Saudi Arabia teaches you that people are basically two sides: Salafis [Wahhabis], who are the winners, the chosen ones, who will go to heaven, and the rest. The rest are Muslims and Christians and Jews and others. They are either kafirs, who are deniers of God, or mushrak, putting gods next to God, or enervators, that's the lightest one. The enervators of religion who are they call the Sunni Muslims who ... for instance, celebrate Prophet Mohammed's birthday, and do some stuff that is not accepted by Salafis. And all of these people are not accepted by Salafi as Muslims. As I said, "claimant to Islam." And all of these people are supposed to be hated, to be persecuted, even killed. And we have several clergy -- not one Salafi clergy -- who have said that against the Shi'a and against the other Muslims. And they have done it in Algeria, in Afghanistan. This is the same ideology. They just have the same opportunity. They did it in Algeria and Afghanistan, and now New York. ...

But the Saudi government has condemned what happened on September 11....... Yes, Prince Nayif condemned bin Laden, and other princes... Prince Turki condemned bin Laden. They did not condemn that message. They condemned bin Laden. ... Bin Laden learned this in Saudi Arabia. He didn't learn it in the moon. That message that Bin Laden received, it still is taught in Saudi Arabia. And if bin Laden dies, and this policy or curriculum stays, we will have other bin Ladens....

Can you show me an example of what the [religious teaching is in the schools? Well, here, this is a book, hadif, for ninth grade. Hadif is a statement of Prophet Mohammed. This is a book that start for ninth graders. This is talking about the victory of Muslims over Jews. This is a hadif that I truly believe it's not true, as a Muslim: "The day of judgment will not arrive until Muslims fight Jews, and Muslim will kill Jews until the Jew hides behind a tree or a stone. Then the tree and the stone will say, 'Oh Muslim, oh, servant of God, this is a Jew behind me. Come and kill him.' Except one type of a tree, which is a Jew tree. That will not say that." This is taught for 14-year-old boys in Saudi Arabia.

Wahhabism is sort of an extreme orthodoxy that historically has not been shared by a majority of Muslims, particularly nobody outside of the Arabian Peninsula. Is there a connection between the fundamentalism of the Taliban and the fundamentalism of the Wahhabi? The connection has been growing very, very strong in the past 20 years, and particularly in the past ten years. The dominant school of Islam with which the Taliban associate -- which is known as the Deobandi school -- is very prominent in Afghanistan and also in wide areas of Pakistan. Northern India has increasingly gravitated toward Wahhabi teaching, and has very, very strong organizational ties with various Wahhabi religious leaders.

And the Wahhabis dominate in Saudi Arabia? The Wahhabis dominate in Saudi Arabia, with also significant influence and presence in United Arab Emirates, Oman, Kuwait.... Saudis, by the way, never say, "We are Wahhabis." They say, "We are just Muslims." But they follow the teachings, and the major booklets taught in all schools are the books of Muhammed bin Abd al-Wahhab. Anyone who's subscribing to someone else is not very much welcomed.


Black Blade: I have discussed this before here at the forum. Saudis and even Kuwaitis despise Americans. They hate us and everone who does not believe the same way they do. They (the Wahhabis) teach that that we must be killed. That is the sacred duty of "true" Muslims. It is no surprise that 15 of the September 11 hijackers were Saudis. I am only surprised that none were Kuwaitis. And here's a thought – Kuwait is the only Arab democratic republic in the Middle East and the Islamic fundamentalist party is the fastest growing party there. Especially after the U.S. saved their bacon (sorry about the reference to pork). The point is, they hate us and they want to kill us. The recent build up for war against Iraq and the growing anxiety over the recent $1 trillion plus lawsuit filed against the Saudi royals, businessmen, banks, and charities means that we are walking on a precarious tightrope. After all they have 25% of the worlds oil (more if the Kuwaitis are included) and they will use the oil weapon if pushed as they are perfectly willing to suspend social programs if it is for "the cause" of (Wahhabi) Islam. I find it quite foolish that many continue to say that they will not use the "oil weapon" as they need the cash. Don't be fooled, believe me - they don't care. Anyone who really knows these people are quite convinced. I have known Saudis, Kuwaitis, and others and have discussed such things over the years. They really do not care about money. They are indoctrinated to Wahhabism. They are mostly committed to giving up everything including money, wealth, and their lives if need be. September 11 was just a wake up call.



Gandalf the White (8/25/02; 17:44:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 83649)
oops -- that should be "Zir Zhisheng's" Question
<;-(

Gandalf the White (8/25/02; 17:42:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 83648)
Sir Shisheng's Question
Zhisheng (8/25/02; 16:27:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 83644)
Sinclair alludes to very wealthy Asian buyers, taking the side opposite to the "cartel" banks. And Bill Murphy from GATA has made similar allusions in the past.
Does anyone have any imformed opinions who these people are?
=====
Do you mean that it is NOT yourself ?
The Hobbits thought it was !
SHHHHHHH Dr. No !
<;-)


Leigh (8/25/02; 17:23:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 83647)
Waverider
The kids and I are with you in spirit as you cook the crabapple jelly! Probably some of our other posters are too!

mikal (8/25/02; 17:13:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 83646)
@Mr. Gresham
Thank you very much for posting that link!

Cavan Man (8/25/02; 16:41:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 83645)
Hello sector
Could you expand on your comment about the SPR buildup in your prior post? TIA...CM

Zhisheng (8/25/02; 16:27:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 83644)
Sinclair's Q and A
Mr. Gresham
Thanks for the excellent link. Very good stuff.

Sinclair alludes to very wealthy Asian buyers, taking the side opposite to the "cartel" banks. And Bill Murphy from GATA has made similar allusions in the past.

Does anyone have any imformed opinions who these people are?

Waverider (8/25/02; 15:43:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 83643)
Fixing Japan's banks: A task too tall?
http://www.iht.com/articles/68636.html
Snippit:
"It has been an inauspicious beginning for Shokichi Takagi, the new commissioner of the Financial Services Agency. In the six weeks since he was promoted to the post at Japan's chief financial regulator, stock prices have tumbled to near 18-year lows, nonperforming loans have hit record highs and Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi has backed down on a key part of a banking reform effort. As concerns about the financial industry grow, how Takagi navigates this perilous path will have a profound effect on Japan. As the agency's top bureaucrat, he is the man most intimately involved in Japan's handling of its banks and financial markets. While his boss, Financial Services Minister Hakuo Yanagisawa, is a politician and rarely works on daily details, Takagi has spent most of his career at the Finance Ministry where, out of the limelight, he helped shape some of Japan's most significant financial policies.

The bank situation is "getting worse, and it will continually and progressively get worse until the government decides to address the proper mobilizing of public funds" to bail out the banks. But analysts say that political pressure and institutional habit will ultimately force him to patch together short-term solutions to reassure jittery investors rather than solve the more complex problems plaguing the banks."

Waverider: Quiet day here today - back to the kitchen and the next batch of crabapple jelly!

Mr Gresham (8/25/02; 15:12:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 83642)
Sinclair Q&A
http://www.financialsense.com/editorials/sinclair/Q/0819_082502.htm
Lots of up-to-date insight into the POG market forces...

Boilermaker (8/25/02; 14:48:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 83641)
Sector; can you provide a link to the Drudge Report
If accurate, the reported direct Saudi support of al-Qaida
changes the complexion of the entire ME situation and the oil and gold markets. I will be very interested to see how this information gets treated by the Bush Administration and by the US Press. My gut feel is to believe the report simply because the Saudi royal family is probably more corrupt than our people in Washington. There is no honor among theives.

USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc. (8/25/02; 11:01:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 83640)
In bookstores for $14.95 (plus tax). Get it here for ONLY $5.95 ($3 postage)!
http://www.usagold.com/cpm/abcs.html

"Without waxing philosophical, a few words are helpful concerning the mind-set with which you pursue your interest in gold ownership. Some enter the gold market to make a profit, others to hedge disaster, some to accomplish both. No matter into which category you fit, make sure you understand why you are going into the gold market. Convey that understanding to the individual with whom you are structuring your gold portfolio. The whys have quite a bit to do with what you end up owning.

"Frequently investors will say that any kind of gold will do because after all gold is gold, isn't it? This type of attitude has helped a great many coin shop owners unload unwanted inventory they hadn't been able to get rid of for years. This is probably a good deal for the coin dealer, but it could spell disaster for you. In the same vein, I have talked to hundreds, probably thousands, of investors in nearly a quarter century in the business. Quite often, potential investors have no more reason for buying gold than 'everybody else is doing it.'

"In Chapter 16 on portfolio planning, you will find some details on this important subject. For now, consider the inscription over the entrance to the temple of the ancient Delphic Oracle: 'Know Thyself.' Study. Read. Learn what's going on around you. Call a few gold firms and ask questions. There's nothing like conversation to stimulate thinking. Take time to lay a little groundwork. Then make your move. The political and economic situation being what it is, there is no better time to start than now. Know thyself -- your goals and needs -- and you will be a more confident, happier gold investor." (more)

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