 Centennial Precious Metals Gold coins & bullion since 1973 Denver, Colorado 80246-0009 We educate first-time investors! |
for quotes and purchase information.
|
ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 4/25/2001
All times are U.S. Mountain Time
(Yesterday's Discussion.)
WAC (Wide Awake Club)
(04/25/01; 23:37:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 52585)
Blair confident of victory in euro referendum
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/010426/80/bnawf.html
LONDON (Reuters) - Prime Minister Tony Blair remains convinced he can win a referendum on joining the European single currency soon after the next election despite popular hostility, the Financial Times has reported.
The prime minister has told colleagues that as long as the Treasury's five economic tests are met, political hurdles will not be allowed to stand in the way.
Blair believes that, even if public opinion still shows hostility when the economic assessment is completed, it will be possible to shift opinion once the debate begins in earnest, according to the newspaper.
The prime minister's allies acknowledge it will be tricky to build support in principle for euro membership, the FT said.
Blair is widely expected to go to the polls on June 7, and the government has yet to decide how soon afterwards -- if Labour is returned to office -- it will announce that the Treasury has begun the assessment.
Blair has promised an assessment within two years but it could be done sooner if the government wanted.
His aides will not want the assessment completed until they feel more confident that public opposition, currently running at three to one against, can be overcome.
If a referendum is called, it is likely to be in spring or autumn next year.
AEL
(04/25/01; 23:05:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 52584)
Wills and Ways
Goldfly (04/25/01; 21:26:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 52581)
"I might be able to extract USAGOLD to a disk with a reasonable effort."
.......... great! Or, the effort could be split up across
several volunteers. Or, I could get off my butt and find a
good auto-downloader or FTP program that would allow
automated download of archive contents, retroactively.
Or, could find out who set up the USAGold forum database
to begin with and ask them to extract data for us. Or
whatever. Where there is a will there is a way.
beesting
(04/25/01; 21:57:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 52583)
A Few More Advantages about e-Gold.
First a disclaimer, I currently have no investments in e-gold of any type.
Advantages:
1. Physical transactions will be carried out by professional Gold experts.(Like USAGOLD)[the masses are going to touch real Gold again]
2. Some may elect to conduct everyday trade with physical Gold.(or Silver)
3. An account holder has the option of holding Gold in an account or Gold in his/her pocket or bury it.
4. Over the years here many have shown much worry about physical Gold confiscation. E-gold will have physical cambios eventually all over the world. An account holder at some point in the future, may deposit physical Gold or money in one location and withdraw it in another location or leave it in cyber-space.
5. Travelers checks may become obsolete.
6. If you have an e-gold account, and your doing business with another e-gold account holder there is no worry about a bad check or a delay in payment, worldwide.
7. If all the e-gold is backed by real Gold, how long will it take for a real short squeeze in Gold to happen?
Enough for now....beesting.
megatron
(04/25/01; 21:31:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 52582)
BlackBlade/PGM's
Anyone 'crazy' enough to look into buying stock in PGM 'take-over' companies by the likes of Barrick and Placer Dome will find some small Canadian co.'s that are interesting. Geomaque(GEO:TSE) just released results of a scoping study on it's Marathon PGM play in Ontario. They have stated they have 1,100,000 ounces of Palladium 200,000 ounces of Platinum, and 100,000 gold. Very well managed and will be expanding the drilling this year. More speculative but potentially a bigger fish, is PacificNorthwestCapital (PFN:CDNX) They also have great drill results in Ontario, and are funded by a super large SouthAfrican co., AMPLATS.
Somethin' to fiddle around with if ya' get bored waitin' fer gold to take off :}
Goldfly
(04/25/01; 21:26:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 52581)
AEL.....Randy
I might be able to extract USAGOLD to a disk with a reasonable effort.
Randy if we were able to accomplish this would the daily add-on be do-able?
Contact me:
gold-fly@juno.com
Don't leave out the dash!
gf
Journeyman
(04/25/01; 21:20:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 52580)
Holding Our Own @Cavan Man
I think it's quite a good idea to hold as much physical gold within reach as you can - - - if you've thought it thru and know how to protect it from looters, official and otherwise. This is a practical policy for gold holders, but purposely stupid if you hold dependably depreciating fiat, where you can only beat the built-in "inflation" by putting your retirement "in action."
However, for transactions at a distance, you might keep some gold in one of the E-GOLD "banks."
Regards,
Journeyman
Journeyman
(04/25/01; 21:10:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 52579)
A couple of details @ALL
Two details, often forgotten:
1. The real reason the bank-government cliques hold gold is not really for "reserves," it's to keep gold out of circulation and to maintain a "spoiler" supply to protect their fiats from competition, a point Trail Guide has addressed in that why worry about the value of gold when you can make so much more issuing fiat. (Big time paraphrase on my part!)
2. When gold is once again widely used for transactions, it's price will rise greatly just as in any case when a commodity gains another major use.
Regards,
Journeyman
Black Blade
(04/25/01; 21:05:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 52578)
Placer Dome eyes platinum as sideline to gold
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010425/n25218596.html
Snippit:
TORONTO, April 25 (Reuters) - Under pressure from a floundering gold price, Placer Dome Inc.'s (PDG)
president said on Wednesday the gold miner was eyeing platinum group metals (PGM) as a way to diversify beyond the troubled yellow metal. Taylor sees gold trading in a tight range of $250 to $300 an ounce for the next five years.
Black Blade: No problem with expanding into PGMs, however, the last statement could not be clearer. Translation: We do not have faith in our main product so take your money an invest elsewhere in some other company as we are a terrible investment. Strange position for the CEO of a major Gold producer to take at the company's annual stockholders meeting.
ET
(04/25/01; 20:51:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 52577)
Cavan Man
Hey Cavan Man - thanks! Thanks to you also - I've learned much from you although not too much lately. <g> You haven't updated us on the box biz in quite awhile, I'd be most interested.
You wrote previously;
"The system is poised to crash. The Euro "project" is a bridge. It too might crash eventually; then perhaps back to gold
and gold alone. It is not reasonable to expect to take the current monetary context to anything resembling "E-gold" nor, is
it practical.
"The immediate objective for the benefit of humankind is to free the price of gold. I'll take one step at a time."
Yeah - and I believe that we are on the verge of that happening. I remain unconvinced of the usefulness of the Euro in the coming crash. Like you say, it's a bridge, or at least some hope it is. When the price of gold is free, you will have returned to the gold standard. I don't feel this is anything to fear, as "all" values will be anchored once again. Power will return to the common man.
I don't know if there are any comfortable bridges, Cavan Man. It's gonna be a crash and it's best to be liquid. Havin along a few good ideas won't hurt either!
Journeyman
(04/25/01; 20:48:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 52576)
E-GOLD practacallity @Cavan Man, ALL
http://www.journeyman.1hwy.com/J-E-AU_GROWTH.html
Hi Caven Man!
You suggest that:
"This E-gold is too esoteric for the masses albeit a teriffic concept!"
And,
"It is not reasonable to expect to take the current monetary context to anything resembling "E-gold" nor, is it practical."
That's what I thought at first. But when I began to look into it, it turns out it's as easy to use as a credit card. Easier even.
And with more and more direct cross-border transactions (according to Greenspan 24% of all transactions) becoming more and more common, E-Gold beats the tar out of "dollars" or any other fiat for these transactions.
And when I first looked at it about a year ago, it was going nowhere. But it's now into exponential growth, by people almost certainly completely oblivious to the true international monetary situation. Heck, even the banksters issue "Gold Cards," for gosh sakes! Apparently the glitter of gold attracts yuppies and soccer moms without any help at all from us gold bugs and gold advocates!
Whether we like it or not.
So, as far as taking it slow, it's out of our hands.
You can check my webpage of convenience (link in header) for some back-of-the-envelope stats on the projected growth of just one of the e-gold enterprises.
Regards,
Journeyman
Black Blade
(04/25/01; 20:44:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 52575)
Methane Madness: A Natural Gas Primer
http://www.hubbertpeak.com/gas/primer/
Snippit:
In 2000 the wellhead price of natural gas skyrocketed 400%. This was the sharpest energy price increase the nation had ever seen, outdoing even the oil spikes of the 1970s. The price hikes hit hard, hammering homeowners, business, and industry, contributing to rolling blackouts in California, weighing on the stock market, and unleashing a frenzy of new drilling. It was, one expert wrote, a "train wreck." So what comes next? The stakes are high; 70% of new homes are heated with natural gas, and the nation's electric utilities have wagered $100 billion that it is the "fuel of the new millennium."
Black Blade: An interesting read on the role of NG in the energy crisis. Good article that cuts to the bone. Better get ready and stock up on gold, food, and blankets.
Black Blade
(04/25/01; 20:34:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 52574)
Journeyman and Digital Gold
Thanks, I knew it was some company that operated under the e-gold banner, but I couldn't remember all the gory details. I happened to stumble on James Turk's digital gold site while searching for this info. Obviously a different company. Again, thanks.
- Black Blade
Cavan Man
(04/25/01; 20:32:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 52573)
and Journeyman....
What respectable gold physical gold advocate could endorse having their metal out of reach? Why, I can't even bring myself to consider an IRA in PM. Respect your position and leaving it at that.
Cavan Man
(04/25/01; 20:29:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 52572)
ET
I've learned a lot from you--thanks.
Journeyman
(04/25/01; 20:28:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 52571)
E-GOLD raid details @Black Blade
http://wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,42745,00.html
Hi Black Blade!
It was "Gold-Age," a "portal" to E-GOLD that was raided by U.S Treasury thugs. The company itself is located on the Isle of Nevis, out of U.S. jurisdiction.
E-GOLD stores its gold bullion in Abudabi and Toronto, I beleive.
The version of the raid carried by "Wired" is available at the link in the header to this message.
Regards,
Journeyman
Cavan Man
(04/25/01; 20:27:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 52570)
Journeyman, ET
Fresh wine and fiat for my men! Onward serfs and taxpayers!
While I certainly see the merits of and endorse (heartily) sound and honest money, I think it a good idea to endorse incremental change this time around.
With gold re-positioned as a storage of wealth, it again assumes the role of monetary predominance and is placed once again at the monetary center of the universe.
Keep your holdings of fiat currency to a minimum (much like the balance in your checkbook) and the rest of your "fruits" invested in gold, a medium of rising, and everlasting value.
What other investment/medium can one deposit life savings into today without the risk of some degree of depreciation? Gold is the bridge NOW and the foundation of your tomorrow.
This E-gold is too esoteric for the masses albeit a teriffic concept!
The system is poised to crash. The Euro "project" is a bridge. It too might crash eventually; then perhaps back to gold and gold alone. It is not reasonable to expect to take the current monetary context to anything resembling "E-gold" nor, is it practical.
The immediate objective for the benefit of humankind is to free the price of gold. I'll take one step at a time.
YGM
(04/25/01; 20:19:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 52569)
FOA...TrailBoss.....
!st & last Question for you.....
Usually I keep my questions in my head til you or someone here eventually answers them. But I have one nagging me and I realize it can only be answered by opinion. Now we all know noone can predict the event or events that will trigger
a Gold rush and send Gold prices upward (like the WA did)
but as for opinion how do you see the price of Gold climbing...as that of a steady determined turtle or that of the rabbit with a coyote on it's tail? Would ANOTHER voice his opinion on this question thru you for me (us)? Looking for both of your opinions if you have such.................
Many Thanks....YGM
PS: sorry if you've answered this question before in my absence...
Randy (@ The Tower)
(04/25/01; 20:18:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 52568)
God bless you, ET!
Let's RIDE!!!!
ET
(04/25/01; 20:09:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 52567)
FOA
Hey FOA - thanks for your thoughts. You asked Econoclast a couple of questions and I'll be happy to throw in my two cents! You write in part;
"How would you outline a method of locking society into an honest money system?"
You don't need a method. You simply stay out of the way and honest money will appear. It is the "natural state" of affairs, not the exception. People that repeatedly cheat others, soon find doing business to be difficult.
"If you were our ruler, how would you
make us stay on a pure honest gold money system?"
There shouldn't be a ruler other than the free market. The best thing anyone can do is nothing, don't interfere, and people will stay on honest money because it is in their best interest to do so.
"Monetary laws don't help, the evil ones will go around them. We could kill all the government officials and most
especially bankers? (smile)"
FOA, you don't need any laws other than contract law. In the real world, people don't do business with people that cheat them. I say, stay away from the evil ones, you'll save money.
"How do we stop this ages old evolution of "thinning our gold" when our economy slows."
Honest money. Don't change the money!
"What is to stop "me" , an evil private gold lender, from lending paper credits instead of gold?"
Nothing! That's the beauty of the system! If the transaction is not profitable for both parties, it won't be repeated often.
"Especially to people who
don't qualify got real gold?"
Lender beware.
Randy (@ The Tower)
(04/25/01; 20:09:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 52566)
Journeyman, AEL
------Journeyman (msg#: 52557) "Derived Lease Rates." Derived from what?------
From the equation (Gold Forward) = (LIBOR) - (Gold Lease Rate)
And with respect to "derived", it rather leads one to believe that "Gold Lease Rate" is not one of the two independent variables in this collection, does it not? <grin>
------ AEL (msg#: 52558) Randy..... are you saying there is no way to extract data from the archive other than ONE day at a time?--------
That's what I'm saying. Therefore, when I saw your proposal on Friday, -----"If I had the archives on disk..."----- I thought to myself, that is one VERY large IF.
And if wishes were horses, we'd ride!
To be sure, the undertaking is not impossible, but it is not automatic either. *sigh*
Black Blade
(04/25/01; 20:02:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 52565)
Journeyman
Wasn't E-Gold raided by the Secret Service and shutdown? Or was that a different E-Gold. I remember that the records of clients were seized as part of an tax avoidance investigation. I know that the owners were fighting the charges. Any news?
- Black Blade
Black Blade
(04/25/01; 19:58:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 52564)
Gold price to improve as new supplies shrink
http://m1.mny.co.za/MGGold.nsf/Current/4225685F0043D1B285256A3700553CF5?OpenDocument
Snippit:
MIAMI -- World gold mine supply is estimated to decline 35 per cent over the next eight years as the pace in gold mining expansion slows. This is according to a report issued by South African stockbroker Standard Equities which also believes that the reduction in producer supply will place upward pressure on the gold price: "The impact of the decline in world gold production will result in an increasing deficit between supply and demand which is likely to change market perception significantly, and subsequently put upward pressure on the gold price," the report says.
Black Blade: As we discussed here before, most recently as a couple of weeks ago, mines are likely to be closing up over the next several months. Add to this the higher energy costs, time required to get a mine into production and the excessive high-grading of ore, it is obvious that the POG is certain to rise going forward.
Tree in the Forest
(04/25/01; 19:52:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 52563)
Trail Guide
I'll add one more thing to my prediction. There is I believe another BOE sale scheduled for May. That will be for 20 tons. By July, BOE will need to sell the rest of its load just to manage the POG. They'll dump all 100 tons in July. No sense selling after the US defaults. They'll use all their ammo in July and that'll be it for the BOE auctions.
Journeyman
(04/25/01; 19:51:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 52562)
Not yet! @Trail Guide
Hi Trail Guide!
I have no financial interest in any particular e-gold enterprise - - - yet. But I like the competition. I'm shopping around, and it wasn't till recently that my interest became more than curiosity.
I stated this in my post yesterday, and things haven't yet changed.
Also, in the recent 5th Horseman contest, I suggested USAGOLD might want to become an E-GOLD portal - - - which would make it less tense for me to post my evaluations of this exciting development here.
Even if I did have a financial interest, I wouldn't be in the least insulted if you were to completely demolish the credibility of the business plan, since I could transfer my gamble to somewhere safer!!
Have at me, mate!!!
High regards,
Journeyman
Tree in the Forest
(04/25/01; 19:40:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 52561)
Trail Guide
By the way TG, for me gold is the goal, silver the stepping stone.
Trail Guide
(04/25/01; 19:38:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 52560)
Comments
Econoclast,
I see that more than a few are taking a shot at this problem. Still, we all look forward to your answer also. (smile)
---------------------------
Henri, I forgot you were a poster here. How does it fell to go fishing in someone else's story? Ha! Ha!
----------------
Journeyman,
I have a reply for your 52546. But, before posting it would you please indicate if you are in any way connected with E-Gold. Or communicate if your passion for this company is overly strong. Understand, this site is provided by another gold based business and I am uncertain how I should tread this ground. I could restructure my reply so as not to
attack the merits of this enterprise (E-gold)if this is personal to you.
Thanks for your answer.
TrailGuide
Tree in the Forest
(04/25/01; 19:32:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 52559)
Trail Guide
I agree with you TG on the issue of whether existing gold can represent the world's wealth. I believe it can at the right price. My post was an attempt (albeit feeble) to divine the future and explain the confusion and mixed signals in the market right now. My question to you was how do you explain these mixed signals? Of course I guess you could say that this is to be expected in a market that is currently being squeezed for liquidity. But if my post was confusing, I found some of yours confusing also. To be specific, you originally said that you thought gold would make an explosive (overnight) move. But then you have also said that the physical price would be "managed" up slowly. To try to make sense of all of this I envision a scenario like this:
May 31. June gold first notice day (FND). On this day we begin to find out how many stoppers there will be for the June contract. As June progresses it becomes increasingly clear that there is not enough gold for Comex to meet it's obligations. Contract holders start to sell their contracts in increasing quantities. The paper price starts dropping.
June 27. June contract last notice day (LND). By this day it's a rush for the door. Everyone wants to sell their contracts. No sense stopping them, there's not enough gold. The collapse unwinds quickly. TA points to the possibility of a drop in POG to as low as $180 sometime in a window of several months after 4/30/01. Morgan's call for POG of $210 by June supports this prediction. The paper price starts to separate from physical. It's unlikely that a dealer who paid $265 for 1 oz bullion coins wants to sell them at a loss.
June 28. Last trading day (LTD). Chaos reins. Physical under heavy pressure now. CB's can't respond quickly enough. It's clear Comex contracts are about to become worthless.
June 29. Last delivery day (LDD). Comex officially defaults unable to match stoppers with issuers. Lots of stoppers, no issuers. A fast market condition develops. Lots of buyers, no sellers.
July. CB's trying to "manage" POG by selling like crazy. Physical reaches $600 / oz. Comex numbers are meaningless drivel. Other exchanges now set the price. Meanwhile silver starts breaking out in sympathy.
July 31. July silver last delivery day. Comex officially defaults on silver. Silver rockets out of the gate. A fast market in silver. Chinese stop selling silver and so does everyone else. No sense selling at $20 per oz, in a week it'll be at $200.
August 15. US defaults for the third time on gold.
August 17. Gold is re-priced by declaration at $2500 /oz.
So TG, what do you think? Sounds exciting doesn't it? <grin>
AEL
(04/25/01; 19:26:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 52558)
Randy
#52550: "One day down, nine hundred-eleven to go...."
......... are you saying there is no way to extract
data from the archive other than ONE day at a time?
If that is truly the case then it really IS
a huge job. I had assumed, and it is likely to be true,
that the one-day-at-a-time setup is simply the way the
database is programmed to run in response to external
users' (web) requests. Surely, whoever set up the system
to begin with could extract much larger blocks of data,
using date ranges, or whatever. Either that or the
database is really really dumb.
Journeyman
(04/25/01; 19:13:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 52557)
More derivatives @ALL
Anyone notice the title of the LBMA lease-rate page?
It's titled "Derived Lease Rates."
Derived from what?
If I want to lease, do I get these rates?
Regards,
Journeyman
beesting
(04/25/01; 18:55:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 52556)
Hello Sir Trail Guide # 52543 Thanks for Your Comments.
<<so the question remains,how do we keep each other honest?>>
From your post Sir,
<<You see, credit and honesty do not mix well in humankind. Better let the fiat show go on
while the average person retains his wealth in Free Gold, no?>>
I agree with your first sentence in this statement.
Sir, we talked long ago about the separation of the paper Gold market from the physical Gold market. At that time noone could pin point the exact time or place it would happen.
I believe we may have been searching in the wrong places.
I believe the separation has started!!
On Feb 6,2001 James Turk, a former banker, started goldmoney.com an e-gold type of banking system, separate from the IMF/World Banks/and Central Banking system. The way I understand this system is: Mr Turk has hired an independant firm to maintain a computer system. A money/Gold exchanger called a cambio buys 1 or more 400 ounce good delivery bars(Gold) and places them in certified vaults. He then divides, with the help of the computer, the 400 ounces into grams. 400 ounces of Gold equals about 12,441.2 grams of Gold. He(cambio) then converts any type of currency deposited with him into grams of Gold, for a small fee. Actually the computer does all the converting and account tracking. As any type of "money" is used or saved it is again converted at prevailing exchange rates into the "money" of choice.In My Humble Opinion as Sir Journeyman wrote yesterday and I agree, this new type of "Computer Banking" will and already is changing the world of banking, as we know it. Sir Journeyman has statistics.
The weekest links to the system as I see it are the honesty and integrity of the indivudual cambios, and the honesty and integrity of the keepers of the Gold vaults, but believe it or not I still have faith there are many, many more honest people in the world than dishonest, and yes it is the dishonest few who spoil it for everybody. A post a short time ago by Sir Gandalf the White has confirmed to me a real shortage of 400 ounce Gold bars may be unfolding as I type this. I think we all know the end result of that!
NOW, to answer the questions what about credit,interest,debts of all types, loans etc.etc....Again IMHO, that form of banking will still exist for awhile until the defaults overwhelm the system. Sir Trail Guide, I see not only the physical Gold pricing system separating from the "paper" Gold system but the entire debt ridden current banking system eventually separating(we will have "TWO" banking systems) to some degree into a 100% Gold backed banking system where those who are able have little or no debt and make most purchases with "Credits" from their own Gold backed accounts!!! And the remains of the present system. I really think your good friend ANOTHER may have been refering to this type of system many years ago.
Sir, I know I'm a dreamer, and have been wrong many times in my life before, but I believe there are a select few who have been reading these pages and will correct any mistakes or mis-interpretations I may have made in my post.(Who said, "Where There is a will there is a way")
Thank You for reading....beesting.
Black Blade
(04/25/01; 18:33:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 52555)
The Blind Leading the Blind
I'm watching Senate hearings on Western Gas prices on C-SPAN2. Babs Boxer is quite a piece of work. Senator Frank Murkowski (R-AK) is giving these rocket scientists a lesson in economics 101. Very sad really.
- Black Blade
Journeyman
(04/25/01; 18:29:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 52554)
Thanx @Shermag, Beesting, CoBra(too) - - - Welcome back ORO!
Thanx for responding to some of my posts. Sorry, I've been having enough trouble keeping up with my "real life" and have had to let many things slide.
Indeed Shermag! When you find yourself in a hole, the first thing you should do is stop digging!! McTeer is a real shining product of fiat logic.
Beesting & Cobra(too), thanks for your comments re: The Real Gold Cover-up! Got me to thinking.
ORO, glad to see ya back. Old place wasn't the same without you!
Regards,
Journeyman
R Powell
(04/25/01; 18:17:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 52553)
Comex gold and silver
Tree in the Forest, great work! And there was some time spent on the research, wasn't there? Thanks.
I believe the exchange itself doesn't ever own any of the metals but acts as an exchange quaranteeing quality, quanity and as you mentioned providing storage. There are fees for all this and the exchange is a self supporting entity. Price is determined through the bid and ask auction system. The eligible metal must also belong to someone and that someone gets paid when the exchange sells the metal. At that time the eligible becomes registered and stays as such in the warehouse, perhaps with numerous ownership, until an owner actually carries it away. I wouldn't assume that the amount of eligible is fixed. There may be more available to the exchange at a moments notice.
As for "why there are so many net zero traders"- the brokers you listed represent many clients so you buy through Lind-Waldock and I sell through Lind-Waldock, both trades will show up on their account. One broker but many buys and sells at different prices. Regulations may require all trades listed so many trades/ one broker/ perhaps net zero?
Keep up the good work. You've dug deep enough to approach the point where the people you question won't know the answers even tho they are performing the functions!
Rich
slingshot
(04/25/01; 18:14:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 52552)
Trail Guide Msg.#52543
Honest Price Of Gold
How do We the People arrive at a fair price of Gold. Could we ask the same for a honest days pay for a honest days work. Each person being paid according to his level of experience? Should his pay be influenced by how he executes his expertise in the perfomance of his duties? Is my employer asking for fair MARKET VALUE for my labor? Would setting the price of Gold be based upon only coined Gold and not bullion bars be one way of controling the amount of paper that could be printed? IMHO this could give a reserve in a countrys treasury and still give gold fair market value because of availability to the open market. How many diamonds are in the vaults. What would happen if they flooded the market? This may be a poor example. But both are in some demand. Both have value. Both are manipulated to
to that price value in the market.
I do not think we can stop the voting public to give up the
credit bubble. This it will have to learn on its own and at its own peril. First they are ignorant as to the value of Gold. Second, The greed factor is fully engrained in the minds of our society. Third, They are unwilling to work hard to accomplish their goals. Not all their fault. If you had forty years of Goverment B.S. you would be the same.
Finally to keep each other honest. I am not going to advocate violence, but, a good thrashing out behind the woodshed on a Market Manipulator, I think would give some people satisfaction. Remember the farmers?
Slingshot
escapethematrix
(04/25/01; 18:14:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 52551)
.....Running a little behind schedule??
I love these transcripts, they are quite amusing..... from LeMetropole Cafe:
CHAIRMAN GREENSPAN. I think I've got it! [Laughter] YOU are telling me that the SDR certificate comes out of the Treasury and we cancel the Treasury obligation and it is wholly an asset swap so that the debt to the public of the U.S. Treasury goes down by that amount. Is that what happens? That solves President Jordan's problem too! [Laughter]
MR. JORDAN. Can I follow up on that? The same thing happened when we changed the price of an ounce of gold from $35 to $38 and then to $42.22. The Treasury got a windfall of about $1 billion to $1.2 billion in both of those so-called devaluations. So an issue on this is: What was the dollar price of SDRs that we monetized? YOU say I have an asset on my balance sheet and I don't know what the value of it is.
CHAIRMAN GREENSPAN. It's about $42.
MR. TRUMAN. It's $42.22; it's equivalent to the official price of gold.
MR. JORDAN. We do this at the official U.S. Treasury price of gold?
CHAIRMAN GREENSPAN. Do you mean that we can lower the debt to the public by moving the price of gold up to the market price?
That could cut the debt back by a not insignificant amount!
MR. JORDAN. I have been trying not to mention that publicly for fear that someone might want to do it.
CHAIRMAN GREENSPAN. It's probably too late; we just mentioned it.
MR. JORDAN. It will become known five years from now!
MR. LINDSEY. Five years from now, it will be read in the transcript for this meeting.
MR. BLINDER. By which time it already will have been done.
CHAIRMAN GREENSPAN. Any further questions for Peter? If not, would somebody like to move to ratify the foreign currency transactions during the intermeeting period?
-
Randy (@ The Tower)
(04/25/01; 18:10:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 52550)
AEL... Excellent!
One day down, nine hundred-eleven to go....
With absolute sincerity, I'll be the first one there to shake your hand when the project is done.
Trail Guide
(04/25/01; 18:00:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 52549)
Comment
(Sir, this was written before reading your recent post I'll read it also and reply later.)
Journeyman (04/24/01; 13:39:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 52464)
Mr. Journeyman,
Excellent presentation of your position! Thank you.
The main point I am making about gold and money is directly related to your first statement.
You write:
-------we DON'T need fiat, and neither "the people" nor "society" decided to go from the classical gold standard to FED fiat. That change was foisted on "the people" AND "society" by the banking-government cliques, with the express purpose of profiting these two groups at the expense
of the rest of the population. --------
Absolutely Journeyman. Your articulated account is regarded as an unshakable law amongst our Western hard money crowd. Indeed, it is this very perception that drives the rethinking today about fiat's relationship with gold. That thinking is spelled out in self evident form in this passage from the trail:
"" It's not the management of money that was the problem, it was the management of man's authority to maintain gold and it's discipline. Over and over, we watch good monetary theory fail as society fails to control their controllers.""
This is the root problem we face in advancing another of your classical gold standards. The people could not rebuff the forces that "foisted" the evil upon them. The problem is not deciphering whether someone else did the deed, it is in the understanding that it can and will happen again.
Society nor mankind itself can manage those that can and do these changes for their own gain. This is what we face, this is what we address.
As a further measure of defining and rebuffing this dilemma, I went on to say:
"" The road before us is to not manage gold. Rather, stop (to stop managing) it entirely. Forget about calling it official money and let it seek it's own level against every fiat as a worldly wealth.""
Even if the charge of returning us to a "classical gold standard" was given unconditionally to Sir Journeyman, this person would face all the exact same pressured his predecessors faced. The account of history and our experience with human nature all say he would do no better.
Further, to mitigate the loss all of us experience as this repeats, I made this point:
"" Indeed, while we may never overcome the human failures of war and fiat inflation, the wealth of common man does not have to be expended while society tries yet another time.""
That simple reply, my friend addresses all our experience with moneys.
Also, to your point of:
-------As far as the euro being backed by gold,,,,,,,,,, and But is their currency tied to that gold in any meaningful fiat-supply-limiting way?-----------
We do not in any way consider the Euro gold reserves as being tied to that currency. For the benefit of everyone, gold will be a free priced reserve once the paper dollar forces are cast aside. If the Euro fails, as the dollar has, it will do so in a world where gold in the hands of man will balance the loss. With no incentive to match gold to any form of currency exchange rate, the Euro will for the first time a world reserve that's valued for it's collective management alone.
Thanks
TrailGuide
AEL
(04/25/01; 18:00:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 52548)
Search Engine
Journeyman (4/22/01; 17:30:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 52351)
"1. it would involve essentially a one-time effort"
.......... Yes, it would involve a big one-time effort
(several days of hard work, maybe a week, I dunno), but it
would also require updating -- maybe a half-day of work
per month.
"2. the folks who take so much time and effort to post here
would do a better job of it if they could search -- and
it would be a slap in the face if we were denied access,"
......... why on earth would *posters*, of all people, be
denied access?! More generally, why deny anyone access? For
all reasons (including the best interests of USAGold),
unlimited access for everyone is the way to go. Information is
not like physical stuff; with info, the more you give, the
more you get; it is a gift economy, and everyone benefits.
"4. As the Archives grow by hundreds of K per day, it'll
only get harder as time passes."
......... not that much. It is already a big job; small
incremental increases in volume will not change much
(sorry to take away the "urgency" sales point!)
"5. Perhaps it's not necessary to break each day's posts
down into individual files?"
......... Yes, it is necessary, for both the indexing
and for retrieval of records in response to searches.
It is not that big a deal. Last night, just for fun,
I downloaded a page of the archives and split them into
separate files (using a file-splitter); it is not hard,
but there are a few tricks.
Buena Fe
(04/25/01; 17:55:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 52547)
Chicken or the egg?
Is the second half of the "Washington Agreement" going to be hatched at the up Coming G7 CB meeting this week?
Journeyman
(04/25/01; 17:32:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 52546)
Keep'n 'em honest @Trail Guide msg#: 52540
Hi Trail Guide!
I've learned a lot from your latest hikes. Thanks!! I would
like to comment on your dialog with Econoclast if I might.
I think I know how the baser human tendancies of bankers and
governmentalists to debase the currency not only can, but indeed
will be controlled, possibly from now on. And it's pretty much
the way they've always been controlled, but with the added
advantages modern technology makes possible.
We may perhaps best begin this particular trail with the French
paper money experiment mentioned in # 52464 yesterday:
"To reach the climax of ferocity, the Convention decreed, in
May 1794, that the death penalty should be inflicted on any
person convicted of 'having asked, before a bargain was
concluded, in what money [assignats or specie (gold and
silver)] payment was to be made.' The great finance
minister, Cambon, soon saw that the worst enemies of his
policy were gold and silver. Therefore it was that, under
his lead, the Convention closed the Exchange and finally, on
November 13, 1793, under terrifying penalties, suppressed
all commerce in the precious metals." -Andrew Dickson White,
Fiat Money Inflation In France, (Irvington-on-Hudson, New
York: The Foundation for Economic Education, INC. 1959), p.
78 & 79
Simple self-interest caused the French people to discount the
paper assignats vs. the precious metals, so much that the
"authorities" had to attempt to drive gold and silver out of the
market places in a vain attempt to save this their latest paper
scheme. It took the French about 10 years, door-to-door to clear
things up and get back on honest gold. In fact, Napoleon was the
follow-up to that paper experiment, and he fought most of his
major battles financed directly by gold.
You see, history is _not_ the paper context punctuated by
sporadic honest hard money we all assume because we've all lived
in the midst of the paper. It is rather, honest hard money
punctuated by relatively short bouts of shakey paper money. It's
our misfortune to be near the tail-end of the latest and most
wide-spread paper experiment in history. So far, in pure form,
it's lasted only about three times as long as the ten-year French
experiment 200 years ago. It's longer because it's more wide-
spread.
I'm sure there were many French folks who thought that when
Cambon closed the gold and silver exchanges, that was the end of
hard money. How could people go against such "terrifying
penalties?" Those French folks were wrong, of course. It's a
little different this time. Things are daunting for other
reasons, but the out-come will be the same, reinstitution of
transactional gold.
TG, you already know gold shines as the premier wealth preserver.
If title to it can be transferred securely and easily from
person-to-person, it once-again becomes the odds-on favorite for
the inflation-proof transactional medium it has always been.
It's the very fact of the ease of electronic transfer of title
made possible by the internets, combined by the legendary
advantages of gold money that nearly guarantees this outcome.
How can you possibly transfer gold electronically? Check-out E-
GOLD.COM for a great example of how this is accomplished. And
yes, you have to be careful that the gold you think you have is
actually there.
E-GOLD also has that base fairly well covered by independent
verification of gold on hand and real-time transparent inventory
data on-line 24/7 as they say. Interesting to compare that to
the Fort Knox situation, where there hasn't been any inventory
taken for what, the last 40 some years? Helps illustrate the
difference between private hard money and the "official"
bankster-government imitation.
Additionally, there will be competing E-Gold "banks" just as
there were competing banks before the Federal Reserve Act. James
Turk has just started another one, for example.
Some of these e-gold banks may over-issue (and ultimately fail),
but it won't be easy. Since E-GOld has set the standard for
"transparency" (real-time 24 hour monitoring of gold on-hand) it
would be difficult for competitors to provide anything less.
There's never been that type of transparency even possible, let
alone instituted, ever before in history.
And even if a few e-gold banking institutions fail, only the
relatively few depositors with each establishment would be
harmed. Compared with the total melt-down that stalks today's
fiat world, such a minor eventuallity hardly seems even worth
mentioning.
Further, e-gold is rapidly proving it isn't merely a fad.
Remember James Turk's new enterprise for example. Not only that,
but even without new e-gold businesses, trends show that at the
present rate of growth, e-gold will likely equal the transactions
of a small country the size of Canada by sometime in June of next
year. And the U.S. Treasury's recent attack on an E-GOLD portal
might well demonstrate the cliques are justifiably worried. If
they're smart, they may be contemplating a Cambon-like assault.
(It won't work.)
Like it or not, transactional gold is scheduled to once again end
this most recent flirtation with non-hard money.
Regards,
Journeyman
YGM
(04/25/01; 17:31:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 52545)
Martin Armstrong...Latest (The Fall Guy)
http://www.armstrongdefensefund.org/
YGM comments....Now we all may feel M A is not w/o some guilt here but from where I sit he appears to be a scapegoat for the Cabal and their minions. The section on Contempt of Court (updated) shows the power of the Cabal thru the use of SEC & CFTC. I would imagine if a gag order, jail in solitary and siezure of assets including moneys paid to Lawyers for defense (now he has public defender w/ ties to origional Judge) aren't enough to keep M A silent he has his life on the line.....The power of the Bankers and Cabal is so evident in this sham of the US Justice system it stinks to heaven. In any case it makes for interesting reading. Also clues surface as to Saffra's
murder arise or at least more questions can be realized....
What a tangled web of intrigue & murder Gold brings for the unlucky ones who know too much.......YGM.
Econoclast
(04/25/01; 17:05:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 52544)
Wow!
I will take your question as a homework assignment.
First, let me say that No One needs to be killed (I hope), just maybe stripped of disproportionate power over our lives.
I am now officially in over my head, but I will attempt to simply answer a question that has dogged civilization since the beginning. Wish me luck. I do not claim the intellect or the knowledge of Giants.
As I start to think, and I don't know if my "answer" will incorporate the thought, the first word that pops into my mind is "re-valuation", of everything and everyone.
O.K., I'm off to meditate on, and solve one of the large problems of the world (smile).
Trail Guide
(04/25/01; 16:19:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 52543)
Comment
beesting (04/25/01; 13:33:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 52530)
How do We The People Arrive At a Fair Honest Price For Gold?
----- So, the question remains, how do we keep each other honest,----------
Good thoughts beesting. But aside the daily buying selling using cash (gold coins and gold receipts in your context), how do we default on our borrowed gold? How do we stop the voting public from demanding that our leaders demand of our bankers, that more borrowings be allowed. To cover what we could not pay now? Some extra fiat gold credits, perhaps? Just until we get back on our feet? Does it not always evolve this way? Even during the glory years of the old gold standard?
You see, credit and honesty do not mix well in humankind. Better let the fiat show go on while the average person retains his wealth in Free Gold, no?
TrailGuide
Gandalf the White
(04/25/01; 16:16:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 52542)
ANSWER --- "NOPE" --- WHY am I wasting my time looking at THAT chart ?
ROFL
<;-(
Gandalf the White
(04/25/01; 16:08:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 52541)
Can we BELIEVE the Kitco "SPOT" Chart ? ( I have no confirmation!)
WOWSERS -- "Downunder" just made up the COMEX minus $2 POG "standard move" in a couple of minutes !
<;-)
Trail Guide
(04/25/01; 15:57:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 52540)
Question
Fair enough Econoclast,
How would you outline a method of locking society into an honest money system? If you were our ruler, how would you make us stay on a pure honest gold money system?
Monetary laws don't help, the evil ones will go around them. We could kill all the government officials and most especially bankers? (smile)
How do we stop this ages old evolution of "thinning our gold" when our economy slows.
What is to stop "me" , an evil private gold lender, from lending paper credits instead of gold? Especially to people who don't qualify got real gold?
Tell us your thoughts?
TrailGuide
Gandalf the White
(04/25/01; 15:53:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 52539)
A Quandary !! (This is a TRUE story.)
NOTE -- This email message was just received in Hobbitville
====
"Dear Sirs,
My trading group is in a serious position to facilitate the purchase of bankable gold bullion in good London form. Both my buyers are the END USERS. If you have access to any sources for this metal where the seller is the OWNER of the metal, please get in touch with us by return e-mail. We look forward to hearing from you.
Best Regards,
(NAME withheld)"
++++++++++
The Hobbits are unsure that it was meant for them, as no one calls them "SIRS"! -- And, as it is written not in their style of Angrit, can anyone help them out with any suggestioned replies?
<;-)
Econoclast
(04/25/01; 15:31:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 52538)
Thanks for the encouragement Trail Guide...
However, I would gladly trade any gains in my own wealth position so that I, my family and friends, and other good and hardworking people could live in a free land with an honest money system.
The FED/Fiatdollar system has successfully dulled/lulled the perceptions of almost everyone I know. I have gone through my life, up until now, with the tag of being very intelligent, yet a rebel (and maybe too idealistic). Trying to show the truth of physical gold to those I care about is a daunting task. The louder I am, the more "rebellious", or "out there" I am.
In fact, my attraction to gold goes hand-in-hand with my rebellious nature. I LIKE being aligned as the 1 in 1000 people who still see gold. I would love it if my rebellious nature played a part in changing my position in life, but I would be sad if it came at the expense of other ideals that I hold dear. I fear that I will need 1000x appreciation in value as opposed to price in order to be able to help those near to me cope with the hardships that would accompany such a drastic realignment.
Trail Guide
(04/25/01; 15:17:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 52537)
Needs clairty before reply
Tree in the Forest (04/25/01; 14:53:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 52535)
Hello Tree,
When I spoke of how all the current gold in the world could be enough to act as a wealth reserve if the currency price was high enough,,,,,,,,,,and expanded on that position,,,,,,
How is that in context with your:
-------------
1) Metal sits at Comex; there's plenty of gold
2) Lease rates up; there's a shortage of gold
3) Trail Guide says; there's plenty of gold
4) CB's tighten sales; there's a shortage of gold
Now, is that clear as mud?-------------------------
You are right Sir Tree, not very clear? What is the thrust of your argument in respect to my position?
TrailGuide
Trail Guide
(04/25/01; 15:04:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 52536)
Comment to Randy
Randy (@ The Tower) (04/24/01; 10:38:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 52458)
Follow-up on my comment last week that China has lately been a net been seller of silver
------Philip Klapwijk, managing director of GFMS, explained at Monday's conference of the Gold and Silver Institute that China sold near 60 million ounces of silver in 1999, with additional sales of 40 million ounces per year likely over the next couple years. Continuing...----------------
Your words:
--------China is simply lagging by one Century in performing this act. Many of the other nations of the world unleased their silver reserves near the arrival of the 1900's when the usage of silver was abandoned as redundant within the banking sector. And in contrast, not surprisingly, global gold reserves have GROWN since those days. Further, the dollar can be expected to suffer a worse fate than silver when it, too, loses its particular reserve and settlement role within the international banking system. And gold? All reasonable signs show that it shall maintain the king position as THE reserve asset par excellence for a long time to come. Get you some. ------------------
Hello Randy,
You know, your thoughts got me thinking (grin). I have time to do that right now as my files are restored.
Following your chain of thought about China silver,,,, I noticed a comment from Bush that we would fight them over Taiwan. Then silver gets hit real good. Could it be they are unloading silver so as to buy Euros and gold prior to calling it splits with us? They do have more silver than their needs require (possibly more than all of us require).
If they are, indeed, going to run with the Euro later and the ECB is marking gold (not silver) as their main "wealth reserve", then it makes sense for China to position themselves this way. It also makes sense because as an addition, Hong Kong has so many dollar reserves they, too, could never unload them. Following the Euro system lead, they could afford to let their dollar reserves burn as
long as they had even 15% of that value in gold prior to full "Euro roll-in".
Further,
If any EuroZone based gold paper they own that had a US originator defaults, with China's approval, that paper could be restructured to pay back in Euro currency assets. Courtesy of the ECB /BIS. Forcing the US originator to dump dollar based gold hedges (that's a lot of paper gold) as they buy Euro coverage to ensure exchange matching. Of course, extrapolating this system wide, we would see paper gold credibility plunge (therefore it's bid price also) aside the Euro exchange rates spiking on the dollar. All the while out right trade in physical gold or "five day" (super spot delivery) would spike to the heavens.
I do wonder if we are, as I said a number of days ago, seeing history in the making with lease rates doing strange things now? (smile)
Thanks Randy
Also welcome back Sir ORO!
TrailGuide
Tree in the Forest
(04/25/01; 14:53:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 52535)
Comex silver and gold
OK Carl H, I've been waiting till I had some more info on Comex silver to add to what you, Lafisrap and others have been gathering. So let's put our heads together. Regarding March silver, you wrote:
"Carl H (03/26/01; 21:41:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 50843)
Comex Silver
I did some checking with Ted Butler about what is happening on the Comex with silver this month. I thought I would pass along some of what I learned.
First, regarding the large number of stoppers. (A stopper is someone who is taking delivery.) A stopper on one contract may also be delivering on another contract this month so that the ~52MOz that is being delivered might be the same silver running in circles to some extent. The extent of that effect is unknown.
Second, only registered silver can be delivered. There are currently 69,576,330Oz of registered silver in the Comex warehouses. It is apparently fairly easy to convert elligible silver in the warehouses to registered silver. There are currently 26,922,246Oz of elligible silver in the warehouse.
Third, the stoppers actually get a comex warehouse receipt for the silver. They can then redeem that for the physical. Looks like 642,297Oz of Silver were withdrawn from the Comex Warehouses today.
It should be an interesting week for Comex silver."
Me: As I have stated previously, Ted Butler has forgotten more about the silver markets than I will ever know. But let's take a look at a few things. Many of you here who have been traders will know this but many lurkers and posters have never been commodity traders so here is some explanation of how a commodity exchange works. Let's look at the Carl's 2nd and 3rd points first.
In order for silver to meet Comex contract specs, it must be in 1000 oz bars, a certain fineness etc. Silver is called eligible because it meets the specs and can be registered at any time. It is eligible for registration. Once registered, somebody owns it. Now if I want to sell silver and it meets contract specs, I can send it to Comex (actually a certified Comex depository) and they will hold it until I sell it; perhaps this is to back a contract that I have written. It's sitting on their exchange waiting for the holder of a contract to call for its delivery. Comex issues me a warehouse receipt (they call it a warrant) so I can prove that they have my bars (at least 5 bars because contract spec is 5000 oz). The receipt means it's registered. Let's say you, Carl, decide to buy a Comex contract. When you buy your contract, typically you are only charged a small margin fee by your broker. The margin on a silver contract could be $2500, 10% of what the contract is worth. Now you have the contract and you decide you want to take delivery of the 5 bars of silver. You inform your broker after FND (first notice day) and you make arrangements to pay in full for what you are receiving. The contract seller and buyer have no control over who get's who's bars. Comex mates the stopper and issuers. While this silver is sitting there, it's registered in my name, the issuer. I am paying a storage fee to the warehouse. Now you buy and stop a contract and my bars are chosen for delivery to this stopper, you. On LDD, (last delivery day) title to the silver is tranferred to the new owner. You are required to pay the cash price for it in full on LDD minus whatever margin you put up through your broker. You receive the receipt that I was holding. The silver is still registered but to you now. You can go to the wareouse with your receipt and pickup the bars or you can leave them there and they will charge you a storage fee after LDD. As long as you pay your storage fees, it can stay there forever until you decide to pick it up or sell it to someone else through the Comex. You don't have to be anyone special to take delivery on the Comex. Anyone can do this through a futures broker. Maybe you are a jewelry maker. You want gold or silver bars? You got it! Just buy the contracts through your broker and take delivery. That's what these exchanges are for. No problem under normal circumstances. Wheat, soybeans, bellies whatever you want. Well Comex doesn't trade those things but other exchanges do. The old joke about someone backing up a truck to your house to deliver several thousand bushels of wheat on your lawn is baloney. It's stored at a warehouse and you pay the bills with the commodity as collateral. By this point in time, you have paid for the commodity in full and are not about to let it go. If you decide you don't want it, it can always be sold on the cash market at a loss or gain for you, that's how the game is played. If you aren't a silver producer or a silver user, you are a speculator.
The point is, it's the registered silver that's delivered because it was previously registered to the issuer. So what's the eligible silver for? Since the exchange has to guarantee liquidity, it's there to backup the Comex in case of counterparty default. Or to backup someone who wants to write a contract but has no silver. You can sell short a silver contract on the exchange through your broker even though you are not a silver producer or owner but just a speculator. The exchange wants speculators because they provide the liquidity that the exchange seeks to maintain. (That's the rationalization...they also generate brokerage and exchange fees which the casino sucks up. Most of the Comex volume is speculators so of course they love speculators.) They want anyone to be able to buy or sell at any point in time without worrying about whether there exists a counterparty for them or not. The matching up only comes when someone takes delivery. Most contracts are being written and bought by speculators who have no intention of making or taking delivery. Typically they either sell or rollover their contracts before FND. That's where all the paper gold and silver comes from, speculators and those posing as speculators but actually manipulating, not speculating. So eligible silver is backup for the exchange. Registered metal though only gets sold if the holder of the receipt says sell. Thus registered metal isn't all available at any given point in time; only if the holder is motivated to sell. But eligible is; it's Comex's metal. Default comes when registered metal owners don't want to sell and Comex doesn't have enough eligible to make good on their contracts. Remember 50M oz. traded in March. If that happens when no registered holder wants to sell (like maybe a fast market; all buyers, no sellers) they couldn't cover this from their eligible. Or maybe someone walks up to their "window" and wants to buy on the cash market and cleans out all of their eligible. Comex would appear to have plenty of silver. About 30 Moz. eligible, 65 Moz. registered but looks can be deceiving. That 30 M oz. is less than 2 weeks worth of total world usage at some 800M oz/annum.
I asked Comex why 50M oz of silver were stopped in March but their warehouse stocks remain unchanged. They say they don't know and they are not allowed to know. This is their members domain and they do as they please. But if warehouse stocks remain unchanged it can only mean 1 of 2 things: either no metal left the warehouse or more metal came in. Remember this metal can change hands many times without ever leaving the exchange. Only the warrants get passed around on LDD. This is something that I just learned myself. My original contention that default would come on LDD was wrong. It could come at any time. So the stock numbers alone don't tell us everything. This brings us back to Ted's first point.
"First, regarding the large number of stoppers. (A stopper is someone who is taking delivery.) A stopper on one contract may also be delivering on another contract this month so that the ~52MOz that is being delivered might be the same silver running in circles to some extent. The extent of that effect is unknown."
Yes but not unknowable. I have collected the data of stoppers and issuers for March Comex silver and spreadsheeted and sorted it. The total of all delivery days from 2-28 to 3-29 was individually entered and added resulting in 10,527 contracts stopped. Let's take look at these figures. The chart is in order of net stoppage or issuage. Net issuers are at the top, net stoppers at the bottom.
Comex Member ** Stops * Issues * Net
Goldman Sachs _ 91 ____ 5092 __ -5001
Refco Inc _____ 98 ____ 426 ___ -328
Salmn Smth Brny 44 ____ 298 ___ -254
FC Stone ______ 30 ____ 49 ____ -19
Carr Futures __ 57 ____ 72 ____ -15
Merril Lynch __ 11 ____ 19 ____ -8
Gelderman Inc._ 5 _____ 5 _____ 0
SMW Trading ___ 1 _____ 1 _____ 0
Credit Lyonn. _ 9 _____ 9 _____ 0
Bear Stearns __ 30 ____ 30 ____ 0
ABN Amro ______ 4 _____ 4 _____ 0
Rand Financial_ 1 _____ 1 _____ 0
MBF Clearing __ 15 ____ 15 ____ 0
Sterling Comm._ 5 _____ 5 _____ 0
Pioneer Futures 4 _____ 4 _____ 0
Rsnthal-Collins 4 _____ 3 _____ 1
UBS Warburg ___ 2 _____ 1 _____ 1
Lind-Waldock __ 76 ____ 69 ____ 7
HSBC __________ 425 ___ 405 ___ 20
Deutsche Bank _ 21 ____ 0 _____ 21
Fimat USA _____ 65 ____ 41 ____ 24
Spear Leeds ___ 69 ____ 20 ____ 49
Cargill Inv. __ 335 ___ 275 ___ 60
Prudential Sec. 1402 __ 1325 __ 77
EDF Man _______ 161 ___ 69 ____ 92
AGE Commodities 604 ___ 3 _____ 601
AIG Clearing __ 2382 __ 48 ____ 2334
Scotia Moccatta 4576 __ 2238 __ 2338
Totals ________ 10527 _ 10527 _ 0
While there is definitely some intra-month "churning" going on here, there are also some clear stoppers and issuers. Here are the largest:
Net issuers:
Goldman Sachs 5001
Refco 328
Solomon Smith Barney 254
Total: 5583
Net stoppers:
AGE Commodities 601
Scotia Moccatta 2338
AIG Clearing 2334
Total: 5273
In a previous attempt to chart these, my contract numbers did not add up. Prudential Securities wound up as a net stopper with 684 stops net. I found that there appeared to have been a change in the deliveries of March 9 after the fact and Prudential dropped off of this list with Scotia and AIG taking up the slack to almost come out even. I may be mistaken in this, perhaps I made a clerical error but that's how it appeared to me.
Now are these stoppages for real or are they just going to be rotated on the next cycle with inter-month churning? We won't know until we have May's numbers. But it's certainly not surprising to see Goldman Sachs as the biggest issuer. Up to their old tricks in silver just like in gold. It would appear that they're trying to cover an enormous number of contracts which they have written and which are being stopped representing 25 million oz of silver. Also of note is the biggest churner, HSBC. They churned 405 contracts. HSBC is Hong Kong Shanghai Banking Corp., Rothschild's bank. But at this point it certainly looks like deliveries outweigh churning.
The full spreadsheet is available and if anyone wants it, send a note to Randy and I will provide it. The full spreadsheet shows the entries for each day. There were some strange things on certain days which would be hard to explain in a free market such as 2 consecutive days when EDF Man issued 3 contracts per day and AIG clearing and Scotia Mocatta stopped 1 and 2 contracts per day respectively. These pairings are set up by Comex and it all seems contrived somehow. There are other questions which could be asked such as why there are so many net zero traders. If they wanted to cancel a position after selling 2 contracts, why not just buy 2 contracts? Why take & make delivery unless you're just trying to generate an appearance of business as usual on Comex? I don't think I would expect this in a normal market. In any case, May will soon be here and I will spreadsheet this data again. Perhaps this will reveal something more.
Regarding Trail Guide's claim of silver at 50 cents per oz. I have learned a lot from Trail Guide and I have a great deal of respect for him. However I think we will only see silver at 50 cents/oz. when pigs fly.
Now onto gold. I asked Comex why it took so long for gold stoppers in Feb contract to pickup metal. Their answer: when we have contango people let the metal sit, there's no pressing need for it. Metal gets picked up fast with spot shortages and backwardation. So we have the following situation:
1) Metal sits at Comex; there's plenty of gold
2) Lease rates up; there's a shortage of gold
3) Trail Guide says; there's plenty of gold
4) CB's tighten sales; there's a shortage of gold
Now, is that clear as mud? We seem to have a volatile market that's getting skittish with temporary spot shortages which are then hastily filled by TPTB. Of course that is the physical market. From the paper market, you would never know that it's anything other than business as usual. What do you think of this explanation Trail Guide?
My last prediction was for Comex to fail in the April-May time period. This was based on a March silver failure actually occurring in April because LDD is at the end of the contract month. An April gold failure would actually show up in May. It appears that I was wrong but not by much. We are certainly very close; a lot closer than we were a year ago. But I think there will be enough gold to make deliveries for the April contract month. It should be interesting to see how fast this metal leaves the warehouses.
Rich Powell: You said: "It would seem that whoever is providing the short term demand for gold (as implied by higher one month lease rates) is not looking to fill this need at the Comex"
Indeed. That's because they have tapped out most of Comex's gold in this April contract month. Nothing is left for June. After this months deliveries, Comex will be lucky to have 300,000 oz. left. Buyers covering their patoot would love to get it from Comex but the June contract Month is going to be a disaster. Don_L is saying that June gold is in trouble. If I move my prediction up one cycle, that puts us in the June-July period but since there appears to be a delay in metal withdrawals of about a month, I will hedge my bets and say the July-August timeframe. This also coincides well with other issues that have arisen. I still don't know which will break first, silver or gold. Perhaps gold will break first at the end of June or beginning of July putting stress on the July silver contract. This scenario would be consistent with a July-August timeframe so that is my new prediction. It should be interesting to watch these failures.
Thank you to all who continue to keep an eye on and post Comex numbers. There are a lot of good people on this site.
Tree in the Forest
(04/25/01; 14:46:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 52534)
Testing 1-2-3
COMEX MEMBER ** STOPS * ISSUES * NET
Goldman Sachs _ 91 ____ 5092 __ -5001
Refco Inc _____ 98 ____ 426 ___ -328
Mr Gresham
(04/25/01; 14:29:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 52533)
Fed Heads & Custodial Gold
After reading those minutes of Fed meetings, would another CB want their physical gold held in US territory, under the "meticulous" accounting and "safekeeping" procedures demonstrated by them?
If they were to remake the James Bond film "Goldfinger" today, they wouldn't have to show actor Gert Frobe (German?) driving his trucks up to Fort Knox to grab the USA's gold. Maybe he could just spike the punch at a Fed Heads meeting?
R Powell
(04/25/01; 14:20:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 52532)
One fer day
But the one we did get was a very strong (almost 1%) rise in the shortest term lease rate. Also the rates increased their degree of backwardation or backwardization which suggests that someone wants to lease more gold, right now, than is available, right now.
The other two, POG down and the XAU index (and whatever makes up CNBC's mining index) down. It would seem that whoever is providing the short term demand for gold (as implied by higher one month lease rates) is not looking to fill this need at the Comex (as implied by today's lower POG). Perhaps judging the gold market from Comex trading is similar to guesstimating the size of an iceburg from only what is visible above water.
Good reading today! Thanks to all and welcome back to ORO. The neighbors at gold-eagle have also noticed your return and are quoting you already (with proper identification of your words).
Rich
Mr Gresham
(04/25/01; 13:42:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 52531)
Fed Heads
From Lafisrap's post before, the quintessential bafflegab:
"CHAIRMAN GREENSPAN. Yes. In other words the check is then
drawn on the Treasury account, if you want to put it that way, and will end up in the Fed account for foreign central banks, or whatever we do with it.
MR. KOHN. Maybe.
VICE CHAIRMAN MCDONOUGH. But on the Cleveland bank's account
their share of SDRs goes up and another asset goes down, right?
MR. KOHN. That other asset is Treasury securities that Peter
sells to offset the increase in SDRs.
VICE CHAIRMAN MCDONOUGH. That's what happens to Cleveland's
balance sheet.
MR. KOHN. And it happens the same day. The Treasury's
balance at the Federal Reserve never changes, whether the SDRs are issued or not. They target that at a given number: they know in advance what it is. They don't raise cash; they don't sell bills.
VICE CHAIRMAN MCDONOUGH. So ceteris paribus, the total on
Cleveland's balance sheet stays the same? SDRs go up and Treasury securities go down.
MR. JORDAN. You sterilize immediately so that our share of
the Treasury portfolio goes down by the same amount at the same moment?
MR. KOHN. Right.
MR. TRUMAN. If I could just add one other factor--
CHAIRMAN GREENSPAN. I'm still not sure I understand this
transaction."
And these guys do this for a living! I almost sympathize with them going 'round and 'round in such a meeting, but it also looks like this stuff is flung so far out of reach of comprehension to be sure us amateurs have NO chance of getting to the core of it.
(Almost like that Rothschild (?) quote about only two men alive understanding the price of gold -- and they disagree. Is P. Fisher the reincarnation of one of them?)
Makes it pretty understandable that we'd go 'round and 'round here, too, over the identity of money and wealth, and trying to tease out an understanding of the results of their shenanigans. Understandable that GATA and other advocates are aiming at a moving target, or maybe Tar Baby, that sucks you into a bureaucratic morass as you try to hit at it?
When the story of the gold manipulation is told, as fully as it will be in our lifetimes: Will even WE here be able to understand it?
(At least we've practiced in advance; peeling away 90% of the onion. The public will remain lost to it, of course, will be steered away from comprehension. But will we get that last 10%?)
Economics is definitely not "rocket science", but if we have entrusted a roomful of economists to get our economy "to the moon, and back" -- in a "soft landing" -- then meetings like this sound to me like they're about to tell us: "Houston, we have a problem."
beesting
(04/25/01; 13:33:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 52530)
How do We The People Arrive At a Fair Honest Price For Gold?
Hi again sir Belgian, your #52517(The "Price of Gold") caused me to think about what I have posted below....As usual..Good Post!! And a Big Welcome Back ORO, You Were Missed, believe it!!
Noone seem to have an accurate idea of a fair dollar price of future physical Gold. Lets list a few items that would influence Gold prices:
1. Cost of production.
2. Cost of Refining.
3. Cost of transporting finished product.
4. Cost of security or vault space.
5. Supply and demand.
6. The human element.
7. Other.
I'd like to address # 5 & #6 here.
If I own an unencumbered item outright(Gold) that seems to be in short supply and want to sell it couldn't I wait for the highest possible price(bid)before I sell?
Answer, yes if there is no time limit.
If I really want to buy an item wouldn't it stand to reason to try to get this item at the cheapest possible price?
Answer, again yes!
So, now we have the human element as a strong factor in ALL sales transactions. Buy low, sell high!
From reading history it seems honesty prevailed in most cases when peers exchanged goods and services for Gold.
So, how did the old Gold system originally get distorted so that it operated inefficiently?
Answer, the U.S. Gvt. decided to set a dollar price for Gold under the pretense that all humans were basically dis-honest and would always try to cheat on financial transactions. The pegged system quickly fell apart.
So, the question remains, how do we keep each other honest,worldwide, in a Gold or bi-metallic monetary system, based on true supply and demand???
Answer,(Opinion Only):
In the old days "computers & the internet" did not exist.
Now-a-days,currency valuations are supposed to be partially determined by supply and demand of currencies via worldwide computer tracking systems. So, if computers can track M-1(currency in circulation)or make an educated estimate, doesn't it stand to reason that a real supply & demand ratio estimate concerning real Gold in vaults used as money, real Gold in circulation used as money,could be made,???(Actual Ownership Would be Unavailable, the same as dollar bills are now.) This would give an approximately true amount of monetary Gold in circulation, and should supply honest numbers for the ever flucuating supply and demand ratio.Also actual Gold content would have to be understood by all persons using the Gold in trade.(that may be up to us Goldhearts to educate the rest of the public.)
Gold jewellery would be valued differently, as it always has been.
To sum up, a true ever flucuating number representing supply and demand of worldwide Gold would give an honest value to the Gold in everyones pocket quickly convertable into any other currency or pricing mechanism. Of course there would still be dealers commissions and different buy and sell numbers.(Wholesale and Retail Pricing as is done on everything else now-a-days.)
Anyone see any large "Flaws" in this type of system???
Thanks for Reading....beesting.
CoBra(too)
(04/25/01; 13:28:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 52529)
@Stranger re: PDG - Jay Taylor's Award - seconded!
Thanks Stranger - and considering those imbeciles were responsible for the spike up in POG after the WA in Feb. 2000 and sent John Willson into the desert after he called for PDG's hedge book to be totally unwound. Well never know who took their book and blew the hedging to the sky - as I've vented right after their release - if you please.
I've had some business dealings with the guy as he was PDG/US 5 y's ago (the Co in my handle = Coral Gold ... was trading at 6 plus CDN Bucks, shucks I didn't sell, insider hell, though I still feel well - immediately next to their Pipeline deposit in Nevada's Crescent Valley, which admittedly is their # uno lowest cost producer) and their guy told me then and there that they consider their shares as good as (no, not gold) though money ... PDG was trading at near its high of 40 - No- not inflation, though with prudent trepidation I would think due to my imagination PDG is on the brink of nihilation (No (dis-) investment advice) - wanted to ad and please forgive me 'Scheiss'!
Good to see you posting cb2
PS: Had some scary phone calls from old W.Str. friends re Reg, James, Frank and GATA (Cheers to you Bill and Chris) to be sure to take separate planes to the Durban Conference - Bill was relaxed and felt he's come so far and there's no turning back, as wherever he turns more worms are coming out of the woodwork.
These guys are not only brilliant, they're hero's in my book and deserve any help we can muster - since they're up against a system of physical and mental tyranny, running free and amuck, for all to see (even the schmuck)!
Old Yeller
(04/25/01; 13:27:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 52528)
ORO;it's great to see you back
As a matter of fact,you made my day a whole lot brighter.I always find your insights and knowledge to be extremely beneficial to my own learning process.
On another subject,there is an interesting post by Rhody on lease rates at the Kitco forum,at 14:10
megatron
(04/25/01; 12:37:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 52527)
Same old, same old
On the front 'page' of CBSMarketWatch there is an article about gold prices and the low profits of the gold miners. In case you may not be aware, this site is for the utterly mindless sheep of the investing society. NOTHING appears here without some political objective for the moronic mind to ponder and (hopefully) act upon. You will notice that there will NEVER be an article about the low price of , say, porkbellies. It's all very transparent and sadly pathetic.
TheStranger
(4/25/01; 11:53:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 52526)
Idiot of the Year Award
Placer Dome President and CEO Jay Taylor bragged at yesterday's annual stockholders meeting that the company's short position is "by far the largest in the industry."
Shareholders in the audience, who thought they were long the gold market, must have been aghast. I wonder how many ran from the room to call their brokers on that one.
Randy (@ The Tower)
(4/25/01; 11:29:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 52525)
See what's new (or old but still relevant!) at the Gilded Opinion
http://www.usagold.com/THEGILDEDOPINION.html
Regular contributor James Turk offers us the latest addition, "Behind Closed Doors." Be sure to check it out here and now if you've somehow missed the references to it elsewhere. As always, it is filled with insightful observations, speculations, and musings.
Randy (@ The Tower)
(4/25/01; 10:23:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 52524)
Argentina, Peru, Brazil
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010425/n25665595.html
First, Argentina did a complete about-face, abandoning last year's gyrations toward adopting a policy of 'dollarization', replacing it instead with a new plan that may soon result in the replacement of HALF of their dollars held in reserves with euros.
Now, with widespread currency weakness in South America, the Peruvian currency, the sol, has fallen to a historic low, joining the Brazilian currency (the real) at all time lows. The central bank of Peru today announced that it will intervene in the currency makets, selling DOLLARS to prop up the sol. Well, such interventions are often ineffective and temporary at best, but it sure is a tactful way to rid yourself of excess dollar holdings! Now, someone should get the word to them to use those dollars to build up their gold reserves rather than buying the sol. That action would prove to have more lasting benefits.
In turn, how much longer will the Brazilian real remain at record lows before the central bank also acts to shed some dollar reserves?
Can you see the opportunity for improvements here? When a nation's currency (such as the U.S. dollar) is used as the basis for international monetary reserves, that nation's balance of import/export trade can be unacceptably influence by these outside influences from reserve adjustments. The currency either becomes uncompetitively strong during the acquisition phase, or is destroyed in the dishoarding phase. When GOLD is chosen for use as the proper reserve alternative, such reserve adjustments need not wreak havoc up or down upon the reserve currency bloc.
Fairly valued "free market gold" could be seen as a necessary precursor to this international system improvement.
Mr Gresham
(4/25/01; 09:50:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 52523)
Oro
Glad to see you, friend. Have only a minute to see what's up here. The table has been noticeably empty without you. I hope you've done some things for yourself in the interim, as you've done so much for us.
JMB
(4/25/01; 08:17:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 52522)
HENRI
Re: the SDR's...I think they were the IMF's. If I read correctly, by law the FED has to take them.
This is a real tricky system we live under, no?
Henri
(4/25/01; 07:50:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 52521)
Fed a Foreign country?
Okay so that means that a private bank allegedly in control of the US economy (I would call it influential but not in control) is actually a foreign country "on the books"??? So that would mean our masters are not elected but an insidious group of foreign bankers, yes?
Henri
(4/25/01; 07:45:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 52520)
Now I'm totally flabberghasted
From the FOMC transcript
"...MR. TRUMAN. What's on the liability
side?..."
Is it possible that Mr. Truman does not understand basic accounting and that banks need to balance their books asset vs liability columns?
Does he think he can just cram a bunch of SDR's down the Feds Throat and not have it show up anywhere else?
It sure looks like thats what he believes.
Whose SDR's are/were they? They apparently have now been transferred to a private bank...permanently. I thought that such things needed congressional approval...guess not.
This is the bankers best wet dream. trading money they print for gold at $42/oz them knowing all along that moves are underway to remove that peg and discussing it openly. Fire sale.
I'm not sure if I'm flabberghasted or just really really frightened.
ausome
(4/25/01; 07:09:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 52519)
Petrol prices
Petrol prices reached an all time high today AU$1.10 /litre and are expected to go higher. The sale of Woodside Petroleum to Shell was shelved by the government two days ago. woodside is Australia's biggest NG and oil play.
nickel62
(4/25/01; 06:52:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 52518)
Midas de Metropole strikes again... quotes from the FED in the early nineties when the collusion was still very new.....
"The set up for gold could not be more explosive.
My reasoning:"
"The Dec. 22, 1992 FOMC Meeting:
CHAIRMAN GREENSPAN. Did I hear you correctly when you
said that the gold exports in October appear to have
come from the coffers of the Federal Reserve Bank of
New York? Has anyone looked lately?
MR. TRUMAN. Well, I didn't want to tell too many
secrets in this temple!
VICE CHAIRMAN CORRIGAN. Obviously, we knew what happened
to the gold, but I don't think we knew what it did to
exports.
MR. TRUMAN. What happens in the Census data is that
the Federal Reserve Bank of New York is treated as a
foreign country. [Laughter] And when a real foreign country takes some of the
gold out of New York and ships it abroad,
it counts first as imports and then as exports. HOWEver,
the import side is not picked up in the Census data. So
there you get the export side of it."
Belgian
(4/25/01; 06:48:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 52517)
Not enough Gold ?
About how un-free are free-markets and the "Price" of Gold :
The conspiracy of "SILENCE" on Gold, among international officials, is in itself, evidence of limited freedom.
"DEFAULT" prevention, through official intervention, is purposly misleading and intentionally handicapping freedom.
The dominant big issue is the pandemic permanent "DEPRECIATION" of all intrinsics of paper-exchangebles.
What we are trying to do on this forum is searching for the VALUE of Physical Gold. Now and in the future, this value must be related to a figure printed on paper. Even E-Gold !
Presently, the Dollar and Euro are in search for a future relation to each other and Gold might be involved.
For this reason, Gold will one day adapt to the equilibrum of that new found dollar/euro relationship. Gold will get a price that will represent a fraction of its Value.
The route and outcome to that price is the great unknown.
Goldbugs and gold advocates differ quite fundamentally on this. Lets go for some pricing excercise and its consequences :but don't shoot the pianoplayer, please.
1/ A POG between 400$-600$ : No big deal at all. Totally insignificant and business as usual for all participants.
2/ A POG on a 1.000$ + : Will have caused a radical shift in perception and Gold will be free for value judgement.
Such a price-level provoques that radical change in attitude (appreciation) towards all kind of paper. The psychology (feeding bottom) for this change, wasn't already present at the 1980 POG-spike event. Individuals weren't linking, permanent, pandemic depreciation with the Gold-alternative. The instant price-plunge prevented to unfold this attitude.
This time, it will be different. POG (value) ascend will be triggered by "default" of paper. The drama that turned out to be an opportunity. Against this background, Gold-education will spread around, much smoothlier.
It is not at all unrealistic to see 1 million average households, scramble to buy 1 Kg of Physical Gold (32.150$)
A brisk and sudden run for 1.000 tonnes of physical gold in private hands is what I call a Change.
This time the media will cover what Gold is all about.
Because POG will not have risen for reasons of speculation.
The change in motivation will surface. That's when I will consider Gold to be free. That's when jewelry/goldbars/coins/and underground gold will renamed as valuable as Gold. But first, Gold must be allowed to show its value against any paper. Paper will then adjust its behaviour(price) to the given Gold-Value ! And it doesn't matter "WHO" will give Gold, this ultimate value. Be it bugs/advocates/officials or even manipulators. The individual will retreat from the collectivity cocoon and take his own responsability again in both hands, for the next cycle.
3/ A POG at X-000's : All depends at how monetary stabilization will unfold ? What is going to be anchored to what ? And how will past debt be monitored against prevailing macro-economics ?
....NOT ENOUGH GOLD, for a free market ? Of course I agree with atom-gold ! But the reason why gold is contained firmly is that there is not enough gold available to allow all possible candidate wealth-preservers, accumulate the physical in an orderly price-setting manner. Gold is so emotionally connected to basic instincts that an open and honest approach in the given circumstances is provoqing an instant stampede and goldrush with dramatic price-swings that are counterproductive. Constant, pandemic paper depreciation is the Enola Gay ! All at once scrambling into the Gold shelter ! ? When the Debt mountains start to slide, where will these oceans of fiat hide or take refuge ?
The present Gold-Control is not a guarantee for gradual and balanced POG -revaluation. At a given moment, "DEFAULT" permission will impact with the speed of light.
Or, will the Euro/Dollar be the rope on wich controlled adjustment will be executed ? Is this development a guarantee that glod-panic can be avoided ? Is this the reason for the silence ?
It is amazing how this forum is providing new insights every day. Sincerely thanks to all !
Black Blade
(4/25/01; 06:46:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 52516)
Gold Lease Rates Higher - Again
http://www.kitco.com/market/LFrate.html
Gold lease rates move up nicely again today - now at 3.56%. Could be a precursor to a higher POG. Higher PM stock prices yesterday, weaker USD tomorrow? Get your popcorn and soda - and watch the show.
Black Blade
(4/25/01; 06:28:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 52515)
RE: Canuck and ORO
Canuck
How are you? I know that ethanol is just one of the ingredients in some reformulated fuels. Unfortunately bio-fuels tend to be more expensive to produce and the energy input to manufacture ethanol does not yield much net gain if at all. In the US ethanol was promoted as a subsidy for Midwestern farmers as well as the cleaner burning ethanol was promoted for environmental reasons. I think that Archer Daniel's Midland is involved with much of the US ethanol production.
I am not sure what the tar sand reserves are at these prices, however, a few years ago it was estimated that the Athabasca tar sands could ultimately yield as much as 600 billion barrels of oil. Suncor Energy (SU) has been working tar sands for several years as well as a consortium of several energy companies that include Imperial, and Occidental among others. Certainly has a lot of potential, however, there is a lot of opposition from environmental groups.
ORO
I did not post any URL to The Buckminster Fuller cycle. It does sound interesting though. There is a real drill rig crunch now and with a massive build up of NG-fired power plants, that spells disaster. There's no way to supply NG for these power plants unless more rigs appear somehow. Nabors Industries (NBR), the largest land driller is looking high and low. They are scavenging junk yards for old scrapped rigs and parts. Even the Coal Bed Methane producers can't find enough rotary drill rigs for these shallow NG plays. There is also a severe shortage of experienced field hands, roustabouts, drillers, geologists, etc. Most of these people left the industry over the years when prices dropped and they aren't all coming back either. We are truly in for "interesting times."
- Black Blade
ORO
(4/25/01; 06:05:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 52514)
Black Blade, all - Bucky cycles
Black Blade, was it you who pointed out the URL where it was discussed?
The Buckminster Fuller cycle is one of recycling - particularly of metals (iron, aluminum, copper, nickel). The cycle was discovered through statistical analysis of the lifetimes of various applications of these materials and when large quantities of them were put in place. Most notably, these were put in place in WWI around the world (Bucky did his analysis in the 30s), with a then average service life of 22.5 years. Thus, with the peak at WWI in 1917, he predicted a low point for the price of the metals relative to labor at 1939. His employer responded by sending abroad all its scrap, which built Hitler's and Hirohito's war machines.
The second cycle, which the original analysis did not deal with, since Bucky went off to bigger and better things with round domes, would have started with a peak around 1944-5 at the end of WWII, and ended in the peak stock market years of 1966-8, whereupon the rate of supply of recycled material from WWII hit its peak and started declining. The rebuilding of supply and its installation should have peaked again around the early 1980's (1980 seems to be the best bet) as the world's basic materials production capacity expanded through the 70s. Thus the next cycle should end about now – in 2001-3.
This relates to energy in that the mining and refining of the metals into usable form for industry requires great amounts of energy. Energy production, however, requires great quantities of the basic industrial metals for drilling equipment, ships, pipelines, etc. (note that 4000 oil rigs from the early 80s were sold for scrap – 4 times more the number we have today – and this is only counting the US). Thus we have a "mine coal to make steel for railroads that will move the coal" kind of cycle. The result should be a concurrent revival of the rust belt and the oil patch, a general rise in the prices of basic metals and all forms of energy, and a subsequent revival of global commodity price inflation, which was kept in check by the supply of recycled metals as the cycle accelerated towards the peak supply rate (probably where we are now). The people working in the construction of oil rigs and in oil exploration now will be joined by people building the iron, copper and Aluminum mining and processing facilities. These will be busy supplying each other with energy and materials, but would produce no additional consumer goods, thus driving the living standards of the average consumer down, and eliminating profits in the overall economy. With the drop in profits, real interest rates tolerable in the world would drop to near 0 as returns on investment diminish during the re-buildout of the industrial base.
Further economic and monetary implications a bit later.
I am posting this in parts because the !@#$% machine went down taking the previous version with it.
WAC (Wide Awake Club)
(4/25/01; 05:53:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 52513)
@ORO
Welcome back ORO.
Canuck
(4/25/01; 05:10:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 52512)
BB
Gasoline hit a new all-time high in Ottawa yesterday
($0.799CDN/litre); people will freak (at least locally) when it hits 80 cents.
Was researching ethanol the other day; what do you see here?
I read in the Globe and Mail that Bush and Chretian were talking about the tarsands in Alberta; paper said the potential oil "dwarfs' Saudia Arabia. At what POO does this become a play?
Hello ORO, good to hear from you!
Everyone back except ARI; coming to see the fireworks!!
Have a golden day.
Black Blade
(4/25/01; 03:15:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 52511)
RE: ORO
Welcome back ORO
Good to see you survived the tax season ;-)
ORO: What do you see in the future of NG, coal, nuke and oil at the moment?
As some here already know, I have closed up my office in Northern Nevada and have moved my field of operations into the Natural Gas business. This is because gold mining in the US is pretty much over for the next few years. Gold mines are high-grading like never before, many will close up operations over the next few months, there is no meaningful exploration, and the energy costs will hit most US mines very hard.
That said, the future for NG, coal, nuclear, oil, and even alternative energy looks to be very bright. The economy is going to collapse due to the end of "cheap energy." It was cheap energy, such as $10.00/bbl oil, that fueled the great Bull Market. Those days are gone forever.
NG production proceeds with vigor, yet in spite of every available drill rig in operation, we are falling behind demand at a fast pace. We are 2.7% below last years production levels. NG storage is at record lows. Last month only 15 bcf of NG injection was recorded compared to last year's injection of 18 bcf at the same time. Energy is very tight in some regions such as California. Without excess hydro power available from the Northwest and higher demand from other states in the surrounding region, Californians can look forward to much higher utility rates and many rolling blackouts. Of course some politicians are pushing for price caps and that will only aggravate the situation as did the gasoline price caps during the 1973 Arab oil embargo. With virtually every new power plant and planned power plant designed to be fueled with NG, the situation will only worsen. There are 275 NG-fired power plants to be built by 2006. Unless more drill rigs are manufactured and drilling expanded, all those new NG-fired power plants risk being idle monuments to man's stupidity.
Coal prices have risen substantially over the last few months. Unfortunately coal-fired power plants have only a certain number of "carbon credits" that allow them to release a certain amount of pollutants. Once those credits are used the plant must either shutdown, or purchase more credits from another power plant. Hopefully "clean coal" technology will make great advances very soon. This country has enough coal to meet its needs for over 350 years. EPA regulations and liability issues are limiting factors.
Nuclear power is being talked about as the clean energy source of the 21st century. Maybe. There is a lot of political opposition with Chernobyl and Three-Mile Island still in the publics memory. Now Dick Cheney has suggested that nuclear power be considered as a means to mitigate the energy crisis. It will be a tough sell, and likely many lawsuits designed to stop construction or at the least to make it a very expensive proposition to be passed on to the taxpayer/ratepayer.
Oil inventories are stable and yet fuel prices are still higher. Look what happens to oil prices when one refinery ignites in California. We are coming into the summer driving season and with several grades of reformulated fuel required for various regions, refiners are going to be hard pressed to produce enough fuel for the demand in spite of growing oil inventories. The problem here is that there are bottlenecks with refinery capacity, and pipeline capacity. Again we have political opposition, environmental restrictions, and the NIMBY problem. Oil will not alleviate the energy crisis. The problem is that most power plants are not "Dual-Fuel" facilities. This is where California is making a critical mistake.
A major problem with all these sources of energy is that the best locations for exploration and production are on public lands. Of course with one party in power, the other party will oppose any solutions in order to gain political power. The regulatory process also makes it an expensive proposition, so energy companies haven't much incentive to pursue exploration and production. The prospect of price caps also kill incentive to take on expensive projects.
Some dreamers suggest that conservation can solve the energy crisis. It simply won't work without much higher utility rates. For example, people were asked to conserve before. They didn't, and there were rolling blackouts. When there were droughts in California, water restrictions went into effect. In Northern California lawns died, car washes shutdown, etc. In Southern California people filled swimming pools, washed off sidewalks with the garden hose, etc. The nature of man suggests that voluntary conservation doesn't work for the same reason that communal life styles don't work. In other words the Grasshoppers will slack off and raid the hard working Ants stores.
Alternative energy can help, however, it too falls short. Though environmentalists claim that windmills and solar cells are the answer, who will pay for it? The already cash strapped homeowner? Also, the animal rights people oppose both as they tend to slice, dice, and cook the critters. Yet others claim that the loss of open space offends the eyes. The list goes on. Fuel cells? Not likely - since the source of hydrogen for most every prototype is NG. That puts us back to square one. When it comes to energy we are SOL. We are destined to endure an energy crisis of epic proportions. Industry will continue to report lower earnings as just yesterday with DuPont, Louisiana Pacific, and Phelps Dodge Mining. It will only get worse. That is why I think that a repeat of the stagflationary 1970's will be a "Best Case" scenario, and possibly even a full scale Depression ala 1929. Either way, I'm invested mostly into energy, Utes and PMs (Gold and Silver). I simply don't see any way out. Energy is like blood, without blood the body starves and dies. Without energy, industry can't function and it too dies. Therefore, the US has no choice but to pursue every avenue to get as much energy into the system as possible regardless of what special interest groups desire (they tend to change their minds when they're shivering in the dark though - by then it's too late). In the meantime, I'm continuing to stay out of debt, buy undervalued energy stocks, and gold bullion (with a smattering of Harmony Gold and Silver Bullion). Anyway, that's my take on the energy debate. Cheers!
- Black Blade
ORO
(4/25/01; 02:09:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 52510)
I'm B-a-a-a-a-a-a-ck
Done with taxes.
Had a holiday.
Did some gardening.
Did some reading.
Did some thinking.
Worked some spreadsheets.
Wrote a little.
Found that Fed tracks the Eurodollar rate (a nearly free market interest rate), attempting to maintain a Fed funds rate close to it - but just under - by 1/2% or so. Recent Fed moves were in response to ED rates falling into the dirt, and the FF rate being way higher.
The ED rate is at 4.1% after climbing from a 3.8% prior to the Fed easing. The ED rate is being affected by the price deflation in internationally traded products relative to the dollar. This drop in the price indexes abroad is the result of the debt trap squeeze on the newly industrialized economies (NICs). These are forced to sell product at whatever price it can bring in order to repay dollar debt incurred during the construction of the capital that produces it. The price deflation rate abroad was at a 12-13% rate in the prior month (1% per year).
Brussels, as usual, had a new set of mind numbingly stupid regulations to impede and destroy the EU economy, which the ECB is supposed to rely on in order to back the Euro.
Malicious idiots claiming to represent the 87% of the population that did not vote for them on the left hand of Capitol hill's halls of hot air decided to increase government spending by 6%. They are now intent on destroying what is left of the pitiful US education system with Federal "aid". Governdementia is becoming further distanced from the people at large, who do not want to be blamed by their progeny for participating in the election of the next batch of little Hitlers (he was elected y’know).
Black Blade - hi
See you are around now.
What do you see in the future of NG, coal, nuke and oil at the moment?
Lafisrap
(4/25/01; 02:08:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 52509)
July 5,1995 afternoon session FOMAC
meeting
Posted from another gold forum.
This dialog describes how the ESF and the Fed used SDRs (IMF Special Drwaing Rights, created for the U.S. Treasury in part with gold belonging to the U.S. people, no?) to buy Fed Reserve Notes, which were then used to bail out large U.S. banks that were in trouble on account of Mexico being unable to pay its debts.
How does this end? With the Fed having claims on gold that once belonged to U.S. citizens. I think that may be what happened. Please correct me if I am wrong here. In that light, arranging for Mexico to fail may be seen to have been in the best interests of the Fed. Is there a lot of trickery going on wherein the aim is to get physical possession of all the gold?
Greenspan sounds really dumb. They all do, except the ESF people.
***
CHAIRMAN GREENSPAN. President Jordan.
MR. JORDAN. peter, I want to follow up
on what you said
about Mexico, because something went by
me awfully fast there. YOU
said the Treasury has monetized SDRs to
fund the Mexican drawing. Can
you explain that a little?
MR. FISHER. One of the resources of the
ESF is SDRs. The
process of monetizing them and
presenting them to us--let me say if I
am explaining something wrong, Sandy,
please bail me out--we take them
in and they get dollars for them. And
that is the major--
MR. TRUMAN. They sell us SDR
certificates.
MR. FISHER. They sell us the SDR
certificates; they get the
dollars and we have the SDR
certificates. That then is an injection
of liquidity that we have to worry about
and sterilize as we would any
other form of intervention in that
sense. So, that's the process of
providing them dollars: monetizing the
SDRs.
MR. JORDAN. But we, the twelve Federal
Resetie Banks, own
our respective shares of these SDR
certificates based on the capital
of our banks?
MR. TRUMAN. Right.
MR. JORDAN. HOW are we informed that we
own them? How is
my bank informed that we now have that
in our portfolio?
MR. KOHN. It's published on the weekly
H.4.1 statement; I
don't know whether there is a separate
internal notification. There already are
$8 billion of special drawing rights
outstanding in
addition to the $11 billion of gold
stock.
CHAIRMAN GREENSPAN. I think President
Jordan is asking
whether somebody is going to call him up
and say "You have just become
the proud possessor of an increased
amount of SDR certificates." He
is asking: "What's on my bank's
liability side?"
MR. FISHER. Initially, it would--
CHAIRMAN GREENSPAN. Unless the New York
Bank is holding them
all and the increase is offset by
deposits at the Fed wholly in New
York--
MR. TRUMAN. The Treasury balance goes
up.
MR. FISHER. The mathmatical way is that
the Treasury balance
goes UP, as we are all saying. That's
the narrow answer. But the
Chairman is asking--
MR. KOHN. And then we sell government
securities, as they
draw down the balance. CHAIRMAN
GREENSPAN. That's not the question I am
asking. If
the liquification were wholly an issue
of the Federal Reserve Bank of
New York taking onto its books an SDR
certificate and crediting the
Treasury account for the $2 billion,
then the transaction is complete
and the Cleveland Bank goes its merry
way and nothing happens. I
think the question is: Are any of those
certificates going to show up
throughout the System and what are the
transactions on the liability
side and against whom--the New York
Bank, the Treasury, or what?
MR. KOHN. The current SDRs are
distributed throughout the
System the way every other asset is.
MR. FISHER. I may be missing the point,
but in terms of the
System Open Market--
CHAIRMAN GREENSPAN. No, the point is
that the
liquification--
MR. TRUMAN. What's on the liability
side?
CHAIRMAN GREENSPAN. The Treasury takes
its SDR certificate,
gives it to the Federal Reserve, which
simultaneously places the SDR
certificate on the asset side of our
consolidated balance sheet and
increases the Treasury deposit on the
liability side. -That's what
happens to the consolidated system.
President Jordan is asking what
happens among Federal Reserve
institutions? If you are going to
allocate SDR certificates to the various
Banks, then what appears on
the liability side? Are we creating a
deposit for the Treasury on all
twelve Banks? Is it a transfer from the
Federal Reserve Bank of New
York? What actually is done?
MS. MINEHAN. It's done through the
inter-District settlement
account.
MR. KOHN. It could be the inter-District
settlement account;
Cathy says it is. But the other point,
Mr. Chairman, is that that
deposit never shows up. The Treasury
knows in advance that it is
going to get $2 billion. It doesn't call
$2 billion of funds in from
the commercial banks. So, the Treasury
deposit is $5 billion or $7
billion or whatever it is the Treasury
is targeting that day.
CHAIRMAN GREENSPAN. This has nothing to
do with commercial
banks. This is basically a Federal
Reserve crediting of the Treasury
account for the amount of the SDR
certificates.
MR. KOHN. Right. Then the Treasury
doesn't call in the
funds. The Treasury's account--
CH?.IRMAN GREENSPAN. No, the Treasury
then disburses those
funds to Mexico.
MR. KOHN. On the same day.
VICE CHAIRMAN MCDONOUGH. Wouldn't we
just have a change of
assets on the balance sheet?
CHAIRMAN GREENSPAN. Yes. In other words
the check is then
drawn on the Treasury account, if you
want to put it that way, and
will end up in the Fed account for
foreign central banks, or whatever
we do with it.
MR. KOHN. Maybe.
VICE CHAIRMAN MCDONOUGH. But on the
Cleveland bank's account
their share of SDRs goes up and another
asset goes down, right?
MR. KOHN. That other asset is Treasury
securities that Peter
sells to offset the increase in SDRs.
VICE CHAIRMAN MCDONOUGH. That's what
happens to Cleveland's
balance sheet.
MR. KOHN. And it happens the same day.
The Treasury's
balance at the Federal Reserve never
changes, whether the SDRs are
issued or not. They target that at a
given number: they know in
advance what it is. They don't raise
cash; they don't sell bills.
VICE CHAIRMAN MCDONOUGH. So ceteris
oaribus, the total on
Cleveland's balance sheet stays the
same? SDRs go up and Treasury
securities go down.
MR. JORDAN. You sterilize immediately so
that our share of
the Treasury portfolio goes down by the
same amount at the same
moment?
MR. KOHN. Right.
MR. TRUMAN. If I could just add one
other factor--
CHAIRMAN GREENSPAN. I'm still not sure I
understand this
transaction.
MR. FISHER. We will endeavor to have a
simplified--
CHAIRMAN GREENSPAN. We still haven't
discussed how the money
gets to Mexico. where it is, and who
draws the check. It's an
interesting issue that I will reraise
outside of this meeting, unless
somebody needs to know. Maybe you
already understand all this.
MR. TRUMAN. One more fact is that this
is a case in which
the Federal Reserve has no choice as to
whether it accepts SDRs.
CHAIRMAN GREENSPAN. I understand that.
MR. TRUMAN. In a lot of other
transactions with the
Treasury, the Federal Reserve has some
choice. But the law says, I
think, that the Secretary of the
Treasury may issue SDR certificates
and the Federal Reserve shall accept
them. Period.
CHAIRMAN GREENSPAN. Do we shift U.S.
Treasury securites from
our account to Mexico? Never mind!
MR. FISHER. We will endeavor to clarify
it for all
interested parties.
CHAIRMAN GREENSPAN. President Melzer.
MR. MELZER. Actually, I had a related
question. I was
curious about the same thing Jerry
raised. Do we end up with an
earning asset? Is there a way to earn
anything on the SDRs that we
hold or is that, in effect, a nonearning
asset?
SPEAKER(?). It's nonearning.
SPEAKER(?). It's nonearning.
MR. JORDAN. We reduce our earnings. When
you're clarifying
this, another question is: This is a
repurchase agreement, right?
MR. TRUMAN. NO. It's outright.
SPEAKER(?). It's an outright purchase.
MR. TRUMAN. Like gold certificates, it's
an outright
purchase; there are no repurchase
agreements on the gold certificates.
They are required to redeem them under
some circumstances.
MR. JORDAN. This differs from my
understanding, then,
because in February or March or
whenever, my understanding when we
were going to take yen or
deutschemarks--
MR. FISHER. That would be warehousing.
MR. TRUMAN. That's warehousing.
MR. JORDAN. You are saying this is not
warehousing, this is
not a repurchase agreement? So, this is
permanent.
MR. MCDONOUGH. correct.
MR. TRUMAN. Permanent, yes.
MR. MCDONOUGH. It's an acquisition of an
asset, not a swap.
MR. JORDAN. I didn't know that.
CHAIRMAN GREENSPAN. Any further
questions for Peter?
President Moskow.
MR. MOSKOW. This is on another subject.
MR. FISHER. I want to thank you!
MR. FISHER. Yes. I was trying to offer a
note of caution
about whether you should read that price
literally as saying that
everyone in the market has agreed that
those are the probabilities
attached to a move or whether it's a
clearing price between some who
have a much higher sense of confidence
that there will be a move
earlier in the month and others who
don't think there will be a move
this month at all. There is room for all
sorts of interpretations as
to whether a given basis point
implication in the fed funds contract
indicates a consensus view or a range of
different views that find a
clearing price.
CHAIRMAN GREENSPAN. I think I've got it!
[Laughter] YOU
are telling me that the SDR certificate
comes out of the Treasury and
we cancel the Treasury obligation and it
is wholly an.asset swap so
that the debt to the public of the U.S.
Treasury goes down by that
amount. Is that what happens? That
solves President Jordan's
problem too! [Laughter]
MR. JORDAN. Can I follow up on that? The
same thing
happened when we changed the price of an
ounce of gold from $35 to $38
and then to $42.22. The Treasury got a
windfall of about $1 billion
to $1.2 billion in both of those
so-called devaluations. So an issue
on this is: What was the dollar price of
SDRs that we monetized? YOU
say I have an asset on my balance sheet
and I don't know what the
value of it is.
CHAIRMAN GREENSPAN. It's about $42.
MR. TRUMAN. It's $42.22; it's equivalent
to the official
price of gold.
MR. JORDAN. We do this at the official
U.S. Treasury price
of gold?
CHAIRMAN GREENSPAN. Do you mean that we
can lower the debt
to the public by moving the price of
gold up to the market price?
That could cut the debt back by a not
insignificant amount!
MR. JORDAN. I have been trying not to
mention that publicly
for fear that someone might want to do
it.
CHAIRMAN GREENSPAN. It's probably too
late; we just
mentioned it.
MR. JORDAN. It will become known five
years from now!
MR. LINDSEY. Five years from now, it
will be read in the
transcript for this meeting.
MR. BLINDER. By which time it already
will have been done.
CHAIRMAN GREENSPAN. Any further
questions for Peter? If
not, would somebody like to move to
ratify the foreign currency
transactions during the intermeeting
period?
Black Blade
(4/25/01; 00:50:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 52508)
COMEX gold ends steady on tighter lease rates
http://www.newsalert.com/bin/story?StoryId=CoUt6qb9DtJi0ntyXotu1&FQ=p%25rco%20and%20%28c%25%25fr%20c%25%25frx%29%20and%20not%20%28moneygraph%29
Snippit:
NEW YORK, April 24 (Reuters) - COMEX gold futures settled firmly Tuesday as gold lease rates tightened, indicating there was renewed commercial borrowing of the metal, dealers said. "Lease rates are certainly picking up. There is significant borrowing and the market is really focusing on that," said Drummond Gill, a managing director of trading at ScotiaMocatta in Toronto. Tuesday, one-month lease rates tightened to 2.5 percent from around 1.7 percent previously, due to current demand and a lack of lenders in the market, traders said.
Black Blade: Not to mention sharply lower physical metal inventories at the COMEX warehouses and rising demand. The cupboard is almost bare. Time to stock up.
Black Blade
(4/25/01; 00:37:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 52507)
ADVISORY/Nuclear Energy May Gain Popularity
http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/010424/2681.html
Snippit:
TOPIC: With the American West running low on electricity and fossil fuel costs on the rise, the popularity of nuclear power may face its first resurgence in nearly 30 years, according to a story by the New York Times. A group of experts recently gathered for the International Symposium on the Role of Nuclear Energy in a Sustainable Environment at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology where they discussed technology, pollution and power supply, the story said. Their prediction? Nuclear power allegedly is likely on the way ``in,'' and design changes and improvements in the reactors can be expected in the near future, the story said. Still, the story said the group noted some problems with the energy supply, such as disposal of reactor waste. The story added that many experts predict that the Bush Administration's Energy Policy, which is due out soon, will have a component supporting nuclear energy.
Black Blade: Desperate times call for desperate measures. I already discussed this possibility in the past. However, it takes years to permit, build, and get a nuke online. Also we simply don't have enough drill rigs to explore and produce enough hydrocarbons, especially natural gas. Yet we continue to build NG-fired power plants. Nukes are destined to be a growing part of the energy picture going forward.
Black Blade
(4/25/01; 00:29:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 52506)
Heat, plant outages trigger Calif. power alert
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010424/n24420603.html
Snippit:
SAN FRANCISCO, April 24 (Reuters) - California energy officials issued a power alert on Tuesday, citing warm spring weather, rising air conditioning demand, and the sudden loss of two key power plants in Southern California. Today's alert, the first Stage Two declared since April 9, was a reminder that the state still faces a severe energy shortage heading into the summer months, when air conditioning sends electricity demand soaring to its annual peak.
Black Blade: A taste of things to come. It will be summer soon and blackouts to follow. Remember there will be no excess energy coming from the Northwest this year on account of very low water levels. All to occur during what is traditionally the worst time of the year for the Tech industry. Conservation? Forget it! Grasshoppers only consume, not conserve.
Black Blade
(4/25/01; 00:22:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 52505)
S&P cuts Calif. credit rating due to energy crisis
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010424/n24433353.html
Snippit:
SAN FRANCISCO, April 24 (Reuters) - A major Wall Street rating agency cut California's credit rating on Tuesday, increasing the cost of paying off $27 billion in debt due to an energy crisis that threatens to roil the state's economy and drain its coffers.
Black Blade: Just the beginning. The rumor is that SoCal Edison could be ready to file chapter 11 soon joining PG&E in bankruptcy. SoCal NG price is on the rise again.
ViewYesterday's Discussion.
Permission to reprint is hereby granted where the USAGOLD name is cited along with our web address, mailing address and phone number. For electronic reproductions, citing the post heading and the http://www.usagold.com/cpmforum/ website address as the source is sufficient.
|
Centennial Precious Metals Gold coins & bullion since 1973 Denver, Colorado 80246-0009 We educate first-time investors! |
for quotes and purchase information.
|
