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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 2/24/2002 All times are U.S. Mountain Time (Yesterday's Discussion.) Kodie (02/24/02; 23:28:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 70699) Grubstaker, what years ... ...did you live in the Aleutians? Grubstaker (02/24/02; 23:16:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 70698) welcome NEER-DO-WELL It is good to see you here!. I lived in the Aluetians,Bering Coast and finally in Anchorage. Did a stay in Juneau as part of my work and there's a real Pork Barrel town if I ever saw one! All of what we have witnessed is logical..as in ..If money(currency $$$) can be produced out of thin air and only represents an instrument of debt, can be distributed without impunity, then why wouldn't everyone and his cousin jump on that train? I have benefited greatly from this system by buying and holding physical GOLD along with a partial pension. Right now I'm visiting the tropics for a spell. Still, if and when a financial meltdown occurs folks like us can fend for themselves..There's a lot to be said about this...Be well my friend.... Rx Gold (02/24/02; 22:44:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 70697) gold, silver, and how about thoes diamonds? http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/data/2002/03/01/html/ft_20020301.1.html snip<"Diamonds are not really a commodity like gold or silver," a leading New York dealer explained to me one day. "You won't buy a stone from a jeweler and then sell it back to him for the same price—he's not going to give up his profit. But they are definitely the easiest way to move value around. I know a guy who had to leave Iran at a moment's notice during the revolution there. No time to sell his house or get to the bank, but he had time to pick up 30 million dollars’ worth of diamonds and walk away." "They are a form of currency," remarked Mark van Bockstael of the Diamond High Council in Antwerp. "They back international loans, pay debts, pay bribes, buy arms. In many cases they are better than money." Monrovia, capital of Liberia, for example, is known as a mecca for money launderers seeking to turn questionable cash assets into diamonds that can then be easily moved and sold elsewhere. There have been unconfirmed reports that Osama bin Laden's terrorist organization, al Qaeda, made use of this operation. > Rx Gold (02/24/02; 22:03:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 70696) @Black Blade The idea of the power plants using the gas to make electricity and having it be clean burning sure does seem to be easier to get by the population. Of course nobody wants it in the back yard. The view from Montana is that Wyoming doesn't give a hoot how bad they screw things up, just so long as the bars stay open. I have head that there was talk of a coal-fired plant in the area also, but that might be more of a NIMBY project than CBM.I understand how cheap production is IF there are limited constraints. As the price goes up as you predict, maybe production could afford doing a more farm and ranch friendly job. I guess the farmers and ranchers are afraid that they will be left with salted up sterile farms and the ranchers without water for their cattle after the CBM guys are gone in a few years. If TSHTF it may all be moot. Might see you around the campfire if you head north. Thanks for the insight from the production side. Black Blade (02/24/02; 21:07:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 70695) Rx Gold - alkali CBM water I know that there are some concerns about some areas where there is alkali water. The water is pumped to lower the water table level so that the methane dissociates from the coal and is pumped into the pipeline. In many of the CBM production areas in the Powder River Basin this is not a problem and the water is used to fill stock ponds and creates wetlands. In many areas, the alkali crust is seen around natural water holes as well. That is the nature of the carbonate soils and underlying rock. The Tongue River is one area where there seems to be a bit of a concern because there has been a drought this last years and there is just not much water for dilution. BTW, the Tongue River near Dayton, Wyoming is one of my favorite fly-fishing areas. It is a difficult situation to get a handle on is the reaction of the locals. The vast majority of residents appear to favor the CBM industry. This includes ranchers who have mineral rights and those who collect surface disturbance and access fees. Of course this can also vary depending on the company that leases the rights in certain areas. I have talked to ranchers who have said that it was CBM that saved their ranches and others who wish they could get some producer to look at their land. Then of course there are the "Gentleman Ranchers" who buy up vast tracts of land such as Ted and Jane Turner who just want a private "playground" in the west. There are many fly-by-night small timers who don't have the resources to manage these projects effectively. These are the people who can be a potential problem from a PR perspective. If they don't follow through on their obligations then they can make life rough for everyone else. However, the Bureau of Land Management holds most of the leases and the mineral rights. Then the producer has to negotiate with the landowner for access and disturbance fees, etc. Reinjection would be very costly as the water would has to be piped several miles only to probably be withdrawn again as wells are drilled in extensions to the CBM field. The reason that CBM production works is because it is relatively inexpensive. Until cold fusion becomes a reality or nuclear power becomes the source of energy desired by Americans, this is the only viable source of clean energy. Of course if fuel cell power becomes economically viable, then natural gas will be the most likely abundant source for hydrogen as it is rather expensive to separate from water with little net gain in energy. Hydrocarbons are the lifeblood of the US economy, and during a deepening Recession we could see much more demand for an economic recovery. That means we must have cheap and abundant energy. It looks like CBM production is here to stay. Cheers!- Black Blade Max Rabbitz (02/24/02; 21:01:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 70694) Thank you Sir Kludge for the Roman web sites; I find that era fascinating. As you know it's most difficult to compare values over time, everything is relative to something else, even gold as you point out (some times it's needed more than others). I would argue that labor is the most important thing to compare. The price of wheat is largely the labor needed to till, plant and harvest. Same with boots. Even the cost of the leather is from time spent caring for the cattle that provided it, and then making the leather. The cost of most things can be traced back to the cost of labor. I'd go with labor value but won't quibble if you opt for wheat. Historical prices of gold and silver vary considerably depending on the times and places. In ancient Rome the monetary system was, dare I say it, "manipulated" by decree of the Senate (coins marked SC) and major commodity prices were regulated by the Senate or Emperor. Although prices were set, including wheat and probably army boots, the good coins of gold and silver found their own value and largely disappeared from use to be replaced by lower percentage silver coins, clads and tin. This decline (inflation) occurred over hundreds of years. So what was the real value of gold and silver in Rome? The official rate or the street value? During the last one or two hundred years of the empire, most of the gold went to barbarians to keep them away from the frontiers. They would not take bronze. You could make a case that Rome fell when they ran out of gold. How does one put a value on this use? Perhaps a better comparison for gold would be Byzantium where their gold coin remained a standard for a thousand years after the fall of Rome. In my mind the fall of Rome was largely due to inflationary monetary policy and a centrally controlled economic system run for the advantage of the political class and their supporters. Hmmm....sounds familiar. Sir Kludge, I agree with some of what you say. There is validity in your observation that people wanted stock more than gold so stock went up and gold went down. However, your thesis does not disprove manipulation. Both could easily be true. Both reinforcing the other. We could argue all day/night about the true value of gold in the past. However, two main reasons why I have come to believe that the price of gold is manipulated are: 1) Allen Greenspan said so a few years ago (captured on video) saying that should the price of gold rise central banks are ready to lend gold into the market. Perhaps he and the central banks just want to unload excess gold. But the context of his remarks were about controlling inflation and not maximizing bank profits. Occam's razor points to manipulation.2) The latest James Turk essay "Accounting for the ESF's Gold swaps" There is a clear discrepancy in the accounting. Check it out. It's at the GATA website which I can't seem to bring up tonight. Do a google search later when cabal goes to bed. (Just kidding!!!). Mr. Bill (02/24/02; 20:45:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 70693) @Kludge You have to compare apples to apples (fiat) and not to oranges (gold). In roman times, the total amount of goods (boots) and services (a day's labor) was miniscule compared to today. The currency used was gold and silver. The price of the boots reflected how much gold was required to buy them.In today's world, because of mass production and the size of the labor pool, the total amount of goods and services is gargantuan. If currency regains its gold backing (or even a portion of it), the price of the boots would be miniscule in the amount of gold required to buy them.But then again, I hate to imagine how much those boots would have cost in roman times if there had been trillions and trillions of dollars, euros, or yen floating around. silvester (02/24/02; 20:21:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 70692) @Kludge Surely the message Belgium provided in response to your question was to your satisfaction. I've enjoyed the discussion since these are some of the thoughts I toss around myself. Some say gold has been manipulated down. Actually the message really says "the dollar has been manipulated up beyond any responsible measure!" When the correction occurs, those who hold gold will have the means to maintain. No matter what the price of Roman combat boots. R Powell (02/24/02; 19:17:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 70691) Canadian Gold Congrats to the Canadian Hockey team! Well-played. Rich Rx Gold (02/24/02; 18:50:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 70690) @Black Blade Thanks for the info. It looks like I'll just have to ride the gold bull for a while yet. I'm in Montana and farmers are concerned about pollution of CBM water containing salt being dumped in the rivers. Ranchers are concerned about the stock water being depleted. These are not newbies, most have been on the land over 100 years. Some folks are saying to re-inject the water, which should solve most environmental problems. Others are saying that the water should be cleaned using reverse osmosis. Do you have any ideas on the economics of these procedures? Black Blade (02/24/02; 18:15:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 70689) Rx Gold - Coal Bed Methane There are plans to build a methane-fired power plant somewhere between Buffalo and Sheridan, Wyoming and then sell the electricity. I have also heard that the project could be expanded to three plants. Of course there is a lot of NIMBY here as that part of Wyoming has been flooded with a lot of Kalifornian and Flatlander emigrants (invaders?) over the years. The environmental concerns fall on deaf ears, as methane is clean burning.I may not be working in Coal Bed Methane much this year as most companies have shelved plans until the price of NG rebounds, permits are available, and pipeline infrastructure is built for more NG. This is similar to methane production across North America. Prices need to be well in excess of $3.00 Mbtu to attract much attention anymore. That means there will likely be another "Energy Crisis" this coming Fall and Winter. It also means that we can write off any economic recovery for the second half of the year (sorry CNBC). It looks like another boom-bust cycle coming full circle. The Powder River Basin will likely be a lot less busy this year based on all the factors described above. However, the shallow CBM here is much cheaper to produce that from deep conventional sources even though the decline rates are extremely high. CBM wells typically begin to decline in production in about a year. I have noticed that withdrawal rates from NG storage are nearly 40% to 50% higher than normal. I hope to get in a lot of hunting, fishing, and camping in this year while I wait for TSTHTF. The Winter weather has restricted some of my activities except skiing and going to the gym (in fact I just got back). However, the colder weather and cheaper NG prices mean that NG supply will be withdrawn much quicker. If temperatures soar this summer as El Ni--o takes hold, then energy use will climb even higher. Much of the nitrogen based fertilizer and ammonia industries have returned to the US and that takes a tremendous amount of NG. If the US economy attempts a recovery we will see NG use rise proportionately and the supply for that is almost nonexistent. Even with all the increased drilling and production activity last year, production overall only increased about 2%. Thank God we had a Recession or else we would have faced an "Energy Crisis" of epic proportions. Looks to be an "Interesting" year. Cheers!- Black Blade Rx Gold (02/24/02; 17:03:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 70688) @Black Blade Do you have any lnks to new coal bed methane project in the Powder River,Wyoming and Tongue River Basins? I heard something about maybe a power plant put in to use this gas? Sell bullion and buy gas? Just kidding. RobotGuy (02/24/02; 16:57:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 70687) GOLD!! GOLD!! GOLD!!! GOLD!!! Hey folks! thought I'd drop by and rub it in!! CANADA WINS the gold medal in men's hockey, best of all the games!!! Cheers!!!! ;) GoldnSilver2002 (02/24/02; 16:40:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 70686) From the layman's perspective Hi guys,great site!Im your average joe who spends all his time reading these sites and articles'slowly waking up to what is going on.Of course lost in all this is the average joes ability to hold onto his gold and silver in definitely.So once again it becomes a game for the select few to benefit from.Im lucky ,i started hearing the calls for gold before y2k but didnt budge and buy.Then sept 11 hit and i knew the world would never be the same.My hats are off for the fed,jpm,central banks et all,for keeping the prices down despite everything.We know that history often repeats itself and this does look like a mini 1929 meltdown especially if JPM Chase get in trouble with their derivatives market.Then we have Japan buying gold and preparing for collapse,what will they do?Nothing of course!We shouldnt underestimate the big boys ability to hold down pog for longer than the average guys ability to wait for any significant pog hike.We celebrate a say at 300,forgeting that not long ago it was well over 300.When you have been hearing for years "Gold will explode!" while people make 50,100,200 percent on other investments,you see gold's problem.We have Japan buying at an ever increasing amount,but no real price hike.We see the dow dip to 8200 and still gold cant beat 300.We have enron'sept 11th layoffs and war(middle east) and still nothing.The real danger here is that the cabal can keep prices down so long the little guy will be selling at 325 while the big boys can easily afford to buy it at deflated prices.Yes we know gold should be at easily 450/oz in these times but if takes another 3,4,5 years for gold to awake then the little guy will miss out anyway.On top of this people may run to the euro as a reserve currency.On the positive side,the cracks in jpm chase' armour are beginning to show,Japan 's banks will soon be lifting deposit insurance in april and chinas gold exchange will soon open.Clearly gold needs a big helping hand because if all these problems only get gold to kiss 300 then God only knows what will spring it over.Perhaps only Gata and a huge amount of publicilty,cause it sure looks like a time of crisis to me but im not impressed by gold or silver so far,when will it really go?Does anyone know? neer-do-well (02/24/02; 16:39:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 70685) bone pile Rural america, less organized than main stream still figures into the economic equation. Thats where I live, small village in SE Alaska.The local economy hinges on fishing and logging, both completely flat. No price for the product. We have A LOT of GOVERNMENT employies, they are doing very well. Thier budgets become ever sweeter, especially EDUCATION....the sacred cow.In short, peolpe who produce a product are going broke.Real estate prices are going down. Belgian (02/24/02; 15:47:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 70684) @ Kludge Sir, I like it, the way you keep hammering on your particular confusion about the protective purchasing powerof Gold. Indeed, must admit, I had the same problem up until A & A provided their precious insigths and vision.To me, only the last 30 (70) years are more than enough evidence for the vicious play (organized play) between fiat currencies and Physical Gold Valuations. If (!) the trade of Physical Gold should realy been set *FREE*, than the whole world would know what the exact purchasing power of the present masses of confetti would realy be. Such an attempt was made in the 1971-1981 decade, where Gold's Valuation was on its way to tell us all what all these masses of fiat were realy worth. POG went a ballistic x 25 and was stopped by all means! Think about any currency's fluctuating worth in time and space. POG was/is forced to walk in tandem with fiat's purchasing *dictates*. Gold and currencies are/were *UN-FREE* For so many reasons cited in TG's studies. From 1980 onwards, the total fiat amount increased exhorbitantly against total mass of produced goods and services. POG declined from 850$ >>> 253$ !!!This phenominal anomaly happened during this very short accountable history. Impossible to reproduce what happened during the past 2.000 years-cycles (analogies).In 1971, 1 gram of Gold (1 ounce silver) bought 1 barril of crude oil. POG was 42,3$ : 31,1 (grams per ounce) = 1,36$ per barril. Today POG 294$ : 31,1 = 8,48 $ per barril.Gold and Crude Oil dictate a very different (significant) price for the dollar-paper. And this is not without reason !You surely understand the utter importance of today's *CHEAP* crude oil. The ongoing geopolitical events provide the necessary evidence. Massive falsifications can live a long life until suddenly the BIG LIE is exposed and inevitably leads to "adjustment" (cfr. the '71/'80 POG-run).Kludge, have you any idea how much dollar-paper (notes + counterfeit) and dollar-digits are floating around ?And do you understand why up until today, this exhuberance hasn't been translated into "HYPERINFLATION" ?Billions of non US people are sweating under medieval conditions to make this Big Lie survive ! Got a nice picture from inside China by a friend, who describes these billion workers without anything of what they produce on the shelves of their own shops ! Confusing, isn't it ?The same can be said about crude oil revenues for Arabian peoples. And if tomorrow we find out that Osama Bin Laden is back home in Saudi Arabia...something more serious willwill evolve.Physical Gold in Possession will and shall expose this decades old irrational play with undisciplined confetti creation. Gold (and oil) will suddenly decide to tell us what is the real worth of confetti. There must be other examples in history of such a "complete" re-valuation. But they are not documented and happened on a much smaller scale. Today it will be a *global* event. Fiat currency on the present scale is a very recent invention . Difficult to find a similar/analog fenomenon hundreds of centuries back. Regards and thanks for hammering on the subject. Black Blade (02/24/02; 15:04:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 70683) Canucks Take Gold in Hockey Congrats to you Canucks! Gold goes to the Canuck Hockey Team - eh? The US Hockey Team was absolutely out-classed. Hey Silver ain't too bad either.- Black Blade Black Blade (02/24/02; 14:45:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 70682) Calling the gold price http://m1.mny.co.za/MGGold.nsf/Current/4225685F0043D1B285256B65006EDA47?OpenDocument Snippit:Peering deep into the future using the past, Murenbeeld wrote: "Gold is under valued on a purchasing power parity basis (and against financial assets), mine output is set to decline, central banks have put limits on their gold sales, the gold industry will market gold products more aggressively, and the Chinese gold market will be de-regulated."After applying a combination of deflators, Murenbeeld estimates that gold should have averaged $351 an ounce in 2000 instead of the $279 an ounce it did. This illustrates perfectly the deflation trap that has bedeviled producers and counties pegged to the dollar. Their costs rise, but they receive progressively less for their output. Just as gold overshot in 1980 as a delayed reaction to the establishment of floating currencies, so it has undershot coming the other way. Bullion now appears grossly undervalued, hence the turmoil affecting the price of gold which is straining against a leash. Doubtless, an "over-recovery" is inevitable, but hopefully the unusually long cycles and extreme swings will moderate leaving the price to track the indices of the numeraire. Black Blade: There's virtually no exploration (especially by the major Gold miners) to replace depleting reserves. When the POG rises many miners will be caught flat-footed with little opportunity to take advantage of changing fundamentals. The big companies have become fat, dumb, and happy. They are missing the boat on this one as it takes several years from exploration to actual production. Only the nimble and quick will rise up to challenge the dominance of the major Gold miners. Interesting article. Black Blade (02/24/02; 14:20:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 70681) Who's Minding Derivatives? http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A49526-2002Feb21.html After Enron, the Debate Over Regulation Gets Sharper Snippit:It's a market that's fast growing, worth trillions of dollars and credited with keeping the economy rolling. It's also a tangle of largely unregulated financial contracts that have played a role in at least five major financial scandals in the last eight years, including that of Enron Corp.Could the current hand-wringing in Congress finally prompt oversight of this extremely valuable, highly volatile web of financial agreements known as the over-the-counter derivatives market? Thomas J. Erickson, commissioner of the Commodity Futures Trading Commission, says he's not overly optimistic. Since being appointed commissioner in June 1999 by then-President Clinton, Erickson's has been one of the few voices in Washington calling for greater federal oversight of these derivatives.Black Blade: Regulatory oversight of derivatives trading? I seriously doubt it - the foxes are guarding this chicken coop. The CFTC and SEC are nothing more than lap dogs for the comodities and financial derivatives trading industry. I see no significant oversight legislation ever being introduced much less ever enforced. kludge (2/24/02; 12:38:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 70680) (No Subject) I first wish to apologize for my insensitive remarks yesterday on a belief that many or all here hold dear. However I have (as I'm sure you have, too) chanced upon many conspiracy theories to not be skeptical. Particularly when it's magnitude is so broad that it encompasses the world and requires the cooperation of many nations and individuals with different, and sometimes competing, philosophies. And I hope you'd admit that this one (FOA's/TG's) has many similarities to others on the Internet. Namely:1. That it has the requisite Conspirators (gov't), the Investigators (us), and the Dupes (the unknowing masses). 2. Evidence that doesn't fit seem to fit the conspiracy is disregarded as having been falsified by the Conspirators. 3. It includes a wider truth.4. Feedback loops that allow and encourage it to expand.5. It's a grand conspiracy, requiring the cooperation of thousands, yet is able to remain a secret except to the Investigators.Is there no possibility that, mainly due to supply and demand, nobody wanted gold when the stock market was a better investment - so it's price fell? And that, since the market has been declining, gold is seen as a safe haven and the price climbs? Overlay charts of the Dow and gold for the last few years. I come here with an open mind, just offering a simpler theory that seems to fit the facts - but prepared to learn the truth. If three (or one host :) wish to say "go away", I will.Sir Canadian, Hope you know I was assuming one "invested" in gold in Ancient Rome, not boots - although that did give me a chuckle. Just showing the prices are comparable, if a Roman put away enough gold in 240 A.D. (the prior 50 A.D. was incorrect - didn't check my notes) to buy a pair of boots at the (then) current price, then brought that gold forward to 2002, sold the gold for fiat, then went to the store to buy some boots - then he can still buy a pair of boots. It's value (the gold, not the boots) was preserved.I don't believe I understand your statement of:"It is illogical to speak of a 2000 year trend (which would result in 0 or 1,000,000 per ounce , take your pick.)"Can you explain further? If it helps, in my modest research I find a reference to the cost of an item at a point in history, say wheat. Then I find the amount of gold in the coin of the time used to purchase it. Then based on the spot price of gold today, I convert this to US dollars, and finally compare it back to the price of wheat today. In one example I found a bushel of wheat (60 lbs) in ancient Rome would cost about $11 US (when spot gold was $280). I believe this is about par with the consumer price of wheat today (I checked a feed store to find the price of wheat at near this quantity).Perhaps this method is a seriously flawed in some manner, I honestly do not know. If anyone has a better method of determining the value of gold across time and currencies I would be interested to know.Sir AU_Poor,I think you may have misinterpreted my post, I advocate purchasing and holding gold.From our hosts:"The archives of this gold discussion forum are a treasure trove of information to educate investors about protecting their wealth through portfolio diversification through private gold ownership. The discussion forum also covers..."Webster's dictionary:protect - to shield from injury, danger, or loss; guard; defendI'm attempting to prove that gold has protected or preserved wealth across the ages, not increased it. Is this not a proper forum for my views?Sir nickel62,As I never use sarcasm to make a point..., I take your welcoming me at face value and thank you. How does that famous Rodney King quote go again? ;)Sir Max Rabbitz,I am not a historian, so here are some of the links I used in doing my research on the subject of the value of gold in ancient Rome:http://www.roman-britain.org/coinage.htmhttp://mywebpages.icomcast.net/fstore/dsmith/mywebpages/worth.htmlhttp://www.roman-empire.net/army/army.htmlhttp://www.tulane.edu/~august/H303/currency/Diocletian.htmhttp://home.nyc.rr.com/deadromans/coins/http://aicoins.tripod.com/aia/id1.htmlhttp://aicoins.tripod.com/aia/id11.htmlhttp://www.anneanddawsonlewis.com/Dawson/C/RM/Denominations.htmIt's my understanding that a Roman soldier also received an allotment for a portion of his food, some bonuses (which would often exceed his salary), and received a grant of land upon discharge (6-16 years of service). But that said, I'm not sure comparing ancient to modern salaries is valid method to determine the value of gold. I'm looking at "purchasing power" or "value" of gold across time, not the value of a day's work across time.If I understand your point correctly, we cannot know gold's value today because it's price has been manipulated. This is why I tried to start from ancient history and move forward in time to find when a discrepancy began. Had I found that, (example only) 1 oz of gold bought a ton of wheat in ancient Rome, and only a 1/2 ton today - then it furthers the case that the POG is being manipulated, right?I have NOT found this discrepancy, will you or others help me to find it? I ask this in nearly every post I make, yet no one offers any references to prove that gold buys less today - or proof why it should have deviated from it's historic value and buy more today. Instead of starting from the assumption that the POG is manipulated and, because of this, it's "true" value can not be known. Why not start from a time when it's value was known, and see how it compares to it's value today?Sir John Doe,I have pondered your statements yet am still not sure I understand. I am not even sure where my research should begin. To what "class of monetary regime" do you refer to so that I may find enough examples to join you in making automatic assumptions? Can you clarify please? You seem to agree that gold held a near constant value for a very long time, but at some point in the recent past it needed to be manipulated to remain at this value. Is this from FOA's theory that gold has been secretly re-valued through a global conspiracy? Chris Powell (2/24/02; 11:00:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 70679) Italian financial paper's interview with GATA http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/1022 English translation of the interview with GATApublished by the Italian financial newspaper,Borsa & Finanza:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/1022To subscribe to GATA's dispatches by email and get them immediately so you don't have to go look for them, send an email to:gata-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Spartacus (2/24/02; 10:09:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 70678) Dishonest Money http://www.mises.org/fullstory.asp?control=897&FS=Dishonest+Money Dishonest Money by Sean Corrigan :Rather than holding that "the love of money is the root of all evil," we should all fervently avow that "the existence of dishonest money is the root of all evil."-------This scam seems to work as follows:I run a small hotel in a mountain resort, as do you, my neighbor. Business has been bad this year since the recession hit our overseas clients, what with their accounting worries and all, so we both have lots of unbooked rooms and little prospect of a passing tour party to occupy them.Then I have a bright idea: I will rent the ten spare rooms you have, for the next ten years, if you will return the favor to me. Moreover, I will recognize nine-tenths of the value of my multiyear "sale" to you now, but offset it with only one year's worth of costs. You will do likewise.No cash will change hands, but you and I will have substantially increased both sales and profits, using these so-called "hollow" swapsWhat's more, when next we meet in the local chamber of commerce, we will both be able to boast to our local bank manager how life in the hotel business has never been so good!-----------Moreover, look at the international situation, where after five years of whitening the graves--or papering over the cracks, if you prefer--the dysfunctional nature of the system has been brought home, even to the gates of Rome itself, amid rising unemployment, record bankruptcies, surging defaults and delinquencies, and falling output.Testimony to this breakdown is the fact that the IMF, at a rough reckoning, is currently involved in the extra-constitutional direction of around one-third of the world's polities and is imposing its failed and destructive mix of "Black Ship" interventionism on them all.It is thus employing dishonest money to impoverish the nascent middle classes and subsume national sovereignty around the globe, with a twofold aim.The first aim is to bail out failed (dishonest money) credit expansions, to the ultimate benefit of the predatory lenders who instigate them and who are then rewarded by achieving higher returns on IMF-restructured, "socialized" debt, while having the debt service itself underwritten by taxpayers both at home and abroad.The second aim is to impose economic colonization by carpetbagging industrial capital in the form of phony privatizations, held in devalued currencies. Further, it enforces what is laughingly called a market "liberalization," but which, in essence, means an osmosis under duress whereby Western goods and credit cannot be barred admission due to IMF loan "conditionalities," but where the return flow of goods has to surmount hefty tariff barriers, which in turn make the debt service less supportable and so promote a spiral into poverty.--------------None of this IMF-supervised harm would ever take place if money were not dishonest--if it were not able to be conjured into existence by the central bank's willingness to foster the creation of what passes for "money" in this world by the mere granting of an electronic book entry at a fractional-reserve, fiat-currency, lending bank.If tomorrow we foreswore this dishonest money, and we irrevocably fixed its quantity and form, we would make sure that the title to it had to be earned by fruitfully contributing labor, and thus we would forestall much prejudicial misalignment of ends and productive means. We would we be able to separate the cornucopia that flows from free enterprise and private endeavor from the subtle toxins of the financial freebooters who use these honorable activities as a vector for the transmission of their pathogens.We would be able to differentiate clearly between classical Manchester liberalism--of hard money and individual sovereignty--and modern IMF-imposed "neo-liberalism," which brings the corruption of value and, eventually, of morality, and which leads on from the inflationary exploitation to excess, waste, despair, and disaffection.If capital were once more not an ephemeral demand liability from the banks, but a true, preservable token of that productive labor which was spared prior consumptive recompense, it would be the more closely guarded and better applied for the fact that it was scarcer and more hard-won. Economic growth--especially that measured by mere spending--might be slower, but it would be more steady, more equitable, and more sustainable as a result.--------Thus, violent fundamentalism--whether from the Middle East or the Upper East Side, whether from collectivist Maoist guerillas or collectivist Monroe doctrine globalizers, whether from rogue states or a rogue State Department, whether from Medellin drug traffickers of meddling energy traders--would not be able to seed itself where its vicious thorns and fast-growing shoots could choke our liberties.Now do you see why the elite hates Gold with such a passion? sector (2/24/02; 09:33:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 70677) Japan Banking Reform?...When Snow Monkeys Fly http://news.ft.com/ft/gx.cgi/ftc?pagename=View&c=Article&cid=FT3ECHBT2YC&live=true&tagid=IXLI0L9Z1BC Daiei aid plan prompts Japanese reform doubtsBy Michiyo Nakamoto in TokyoPublished: February 24 2002 11:57 | Last Updated: February 24 2002 12:47The Japanese government's commitment to reform came under renewed question over the weekend after it was revealed that the authorities had pressured banks to step up their financial assistance to Daiei, the troubled retailer. The Financial Services Agency is understood to have asked Daiei's leading banks, UFJ, Sumitomo Mitsui and Fuji Bank, to top up their financial assistance to the retailer in order to help it expand its restructuring programme and convince the markets it is on the road to recovery. Under a restructuring programme which was to be finalised by the end of the month, when Daiei closes its books, UFJ, SMBC and Fuji Bank were expected to provide Daiei with ¥420bn ($3.1bn) in financial assistance in the form of a debt waiver and a debt for equity swap. The precise details of the assistance are still being hammered out. However, concerns that the financial assistance being offered would not be sufficient to put Daiei back up on its feet have remained a severe drag on the retailer's share price, which has languished precariously close to the psychologically important ¥100 level, at Y118 on Friday. Daiei's restructuring programme has also been criticised as insufficient to address its problems. Several political leaders who fear that if Daiei should collapse it would trigger a financial crisis, are also understood to have pressured the financial authorities to do everything they can to prevent such an outcome. The latest development throws further doubt on the Japanese leadership's commitment to the kind of market-led reforms Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi has pledged to support. That commitment was already under question when government officials intervened in the rescue of Snow Brand Milk, a milk and dairy products group that has been hit by a series of scandals. In a further sign that Japanese banks are preparing to support ailing companies, UFJ, Dai-ichi Kangyo Bank, part of the Mizuho financial group, and Asahi Bank, are expected to waive about Y300bn in debts to Daikyo, a leading condominium developer. The latest rescue plans by the banks come as they have faced stepped-up pressure to deal more aggressively with their non-performing loans.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++In light of the above article, there is a zero probability of Japanese banking "reform", therefore there is a 100% probability of yet another big sovereign debt downgrade from the Enron chastened US Moody's & S&P rating agencies...leading to greater risk of a systemic bank failure...leading to a massive transfer of Japanese savings into yellow metal.A 1.7% shift of savings funds at risk in Japan into gold yields 1,000 tonnes...more than the official WGC quarterly demand for ALL reporting nations combined [880 tonnes]. barnacle bill (2/24/02; 07:37:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 70676) Greenspan Quotes JI Thanks for the posting. I've been a lurker here for several years. I would like to thank all of the posters on this forum for their dilligent work. I do not have the time nor the expertise to throughly check out any of the numerous lies, truths, and half-truths we people are innundated with daily. This forum and similar forums are beacons of light in a darkening world. I salute you! Mr Gresham (02/24/02; 01:31:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 70675) Bulldozers http://www.usagold.com/gildedopinion/Jensen/20020218.html I was in Israel, in 1978, riding a bus along the Jordan River valley. I saw a bulldozer knocking down a stone or adobe type house near the road. I hadn't remembered it until now.I am amazed at the patience of people who tolerate things we would be in instant uprising about. Or think we would be. Perhaps they know, and need know, only that there is a gun at their head, and they calculate their reponse differently than we think we would. They measure their time differently.Two different worlds. Two different worlds. Soon to meet? Soon to meet? ViewYesterday's Discussion.
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