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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 4/24/2001
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

(Yesterday's Discussion.)

ET (04/24/01; 23:05:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 52504)
Randy

Hey Randy - now I know you didn't mean all that. <g>

"And finally, why do you insist on painting me as a "supporter" of fiat currency? Like a weather man, I simply "calls 'em
as I sees 'em", and fiat currency IS the prevailing wind... against which you apparently insist we all should shake our
feable little fists."

Of course, and with great gusto!

ET (04/24/01; 22:42:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 52503)
Randy

Hey partner, good post! You write;

"Why do you perceive that the scenarios laid out by me or FOA do not allow for gold to trade freely in the marketplace?"

Because you have repeatedly declared that gold should be treated differently than other assets. You've said gold should have its currency function removed by government intervention. You've declared it shouldn't be allowed to be lent in some circumstances like the derivatives market. You've said we should rely on the ECB "mark to market fix" to be the last word in gold valuation to fiat. Doesn't sound free to me.

"That is exactly what we are looking for. The Maastricht Treaty took care to ensure that all euro members liberalized the
national gold markets and eliminated the associated taxation. What Michael does with gold at Centennial is free trade is it
not? We look for this to continue."

You need to understand why a treaty is a poor substitute for a free market. Why do governments need treaties if a free market is more efficient?

"What we continue to point up is that the valuations of the free market in gold are currently being skewed because this
trade is dwarfed by the derivative market, and so long as the shell game of providing physical gold to those who demand
it continues, the price shall be a mathematical derivative of the free market in PAPER gold."

Let me point out a difference in our perception of the world. I would submit that the derivatives market would not have the kind of influence it does, had it not been for the abandonment of the gold standard. Another version of fiat will not change the situation with gold. All fiat currencies thrive at the expense of gold.

"To be sure, we foresee the
collapse of this paper "fiat gold" system, and are focused upon the continued free trade in physical gold unencumbered
by the low value of the ponderous supply of "apparent gold"."

Yet even you Randy, acknowledges that this fiat system distorts gold's true value whether we regard this as freely traded or not. Obviously gold is not freely traded today. Try to buy a significant quantity and see about delivery times.

"Please consider that and what follows in response to your comment, "You keep asserting that fiat is inevitable when
clearly it is not."

"There is no government that has caused this paper gold market to circulate by fiat decree, and yet THERE IT IS."

You have to realize that you are wrong about that.

"It is
merely academic at the point of use, and many bullion banking participants rely on expectations of their future ability to
settle their gold derivative positions with "delivery" of other gold derivatives. Such paper-based systems, fiat or NOT,
are subject to boom and bust, and the bust is near."

Randy, it is the currency system itself that is going bust. Switching to another fiat system will not solve the problem. The problem will only be solved when the world writes off the bad investments and returns to sound money, however briefly this might last. FOA doesn't seem to believe this but I'm sure it's the case.

"Those who have risked their real gold into this global "free banking" system will likely be happy in the future with a
shoebox investment strategy when they rebuild their lost positions after the collapse. After all, when the system has
reached global size and central banks cannot themselves print gold to monetize the defaulting loans, there is no lender of
last resort, is there? "Free banking" that fails to answer your prayers... incredible!"

You have to understand that there has been nothing free about the banking system since you or I have been alive.

"Please explain your rationale when you say that gold cannot be traded freely. We say it does today, albeit with its value
hidden behind gold paper. We say it will tomorrow, with its value in plain view after the clearing flames."

Please keep in mind that several of us out here don't believe the EU will anymore seek the true value of gold than the US has. Call it experience.

"Also, in response to the "inevitability" of fiat currency, or ANY such inflatable paper accounting system facilitated by
banking of all stripes, please look honestly inward when you weigh your opportunity and choice as presented in my
previous post...(msg#: 52480)"

You are, of course, absolutely correct in your advice given the circumstances. However Randy, I think we can and will do better. The best thing that could happen would be a collapse of this system. It's the only chance we have left for freedom. Don't reject the gold standard buddy, it's your only hope of retaining any liberty. Ideas can move mountains. Believe it!

Inside (04/24/01; 21:50:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 52502)
Hyperinflation
Trail Guide or whomever ?

If we have this hyperinflation.... what would be the outcome/implication for other world currencies... being an Aussie... I have particular interest in the Aussie dollar.

Will it hyperinflate too.. or will it strengthen ?

What is the projected timeline for the end of the US dollar... is it to coincide with the intro of Euro in Jan 2002.. Can the physical gold price fly before the Euro introduction ??

Will the paper or physical price of Gold rise before then ?

I am an unashamed Goldbug and believe in holding the physical although I have lots of shares in gold producers also (all showing a huge loss at present). I watch/trade using TA (charting) and noticed the aberration in the gold chart price compared to the underlying supporting indicators RSI, MACD etc..... someones' buying big time... has been for years.... there is a lot of support there for something.... physical ??

For years I have a felt alone in my belief in Gold... then I found this forum and it's associated wisdom.... I now feel vindicated in my beliefs, but now feel like a learner amongst you all.

You responses would be most welcome... if need be point me to previous articles which may answer my questions.

Thank you.

Inside

Bonedaddy (04/24/01; 21:45:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 52501)
Hail, Horatio!
Hello, Horatio. I happened to notice your post on "BIG OIL" and the refinery fire co-incidence. I know a little about refineries and pipelines and such. And there is something of a conspiracy afoot. There hasn't been a new refinery built in probably 15 years. Many have shut down due to regulation and environmental overkill. Our capacity to produce is now less than our capacity to consume. (Sort of like the GOLD market, yes.)
Refinery fires happen all of the time. I know of a few that were real doozies, but they only made the local news. There wasn't a so-called "shortage" at the time. The real conspiracy has been one of government regulation, demegogery, and outright foolishness. (Gov. Grey Davis is a masterfull dumbass.) A nation needs energy to grow. And even now, when we need new energy the most, the media tries to demonize the only people who possess the knowledge and willingness to take the risks to deliver what the whole country needs to survive.
Yes, there are crooks in the oil business. But, per capita, there are far fewer nefarians in oil than in government or the news media. Sadly, our nation has grown weak. People have come to believe that their "need" somehow makes them "enitled" to the fruit of anothers labor. Whether it is stealing intellectual capital via Napster or stealing electricity via goverment fiat in Kalifornia, it is all stealing. Our nation is, this very minute, in a crisis. It is a crisis of character. And it will deepen with time. As the power blacks out this long hot summer, the riots will spread. The season of cleansing is upon us. Godspeed, Horatio!

Randy (@ The Tower) (04/24/01; 21:35:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 52500)
Sorry ET
I see in the time it took me to type you had already considered my "exercise in clear thinking".

Unfortunately, you choose to remain so heroically disconnected from reality that your input begins to lose its value. Did I not preface that scenario by stating that you place yourself in the role of "John Q. Public"?

And yet, you expect John Q. Public, the "regular guys" seen seated in the stands of any televised sporting event, to behave as you have suggested with your "third choice"? You expect "those guys" to "save [their] money and pay cash for [their] home like people used to." AHH HA HA Ha ha ha hah

At the very least, it is good to see that you haven't lost your sense of humor when you find yourself hopelessly on the light end of a reality-based conversation. But please... do continue to please yourself and buy gold upon your fanciful desires. I assure you, I shall certainly continue to buy gold upon my view of the reality ahead, and I offer these thoughts to other productive peoples who would like to continue to act with reason over fancy.

And finally, why do you insist on painting me as a "supporter" of fiat currency? Like a weather man, I simply "calls 'em as I sees 'em", and fiat currency IS the prevailing wind... against which you apparently insist we all should shake our feable little fists.

Henri (04/24/01; 21:32:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 52499)
Trail Guide
Holy Mackeral! Henri caught a nice one? 51979 or 52284?

Aww. pshaw its probably ANOTHER Henri anyway.

Elwood (04/24/01; 21:06:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 52498)
Former Secretary of Energy Bill Richardson/Custodial Gold

Did he not make a few important trips to Saudi last fall during the runup in oil prices? Perhaps one would be wise to check the timing of these trips and compare to the timing of the reclassification at West Point?

Elwood

Randy (@ The Tower) (04/24/01; 20:59:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 52497)
Bite-sized pieces
ET,
Why do you perceive that the scenarios laid out by me or FOA do not allow for gold to trade freely in the marketplace?

That is exactly what we are looking for. The Maastricht Treaty took care to ensure that all euro members liberalized the national gold markets and eliminated the associated taxation. What Michael does with gold at Centennial is free trade is it not? We look for this to continue.

What we continue to point up is that the valuations of the free market in gold are currently being skewed because this trade is dwarfed by the derivative market, and so long as the shell game of providing physical gold to those who demand it continues, the price shall be a mathematical derivative of the free market in PAPER gold. To be sure, we foresee the collapse of this paper "fiat gold" system, and are focused upon the continued free trade in physical gold unencumbered by the low value of the ponderous supply of "apparent gold".

Please consider that and what follows in response to your comment, "You keep asserting that fiat is inevitable when clearly it is not."

There is no government that has caused this paper gold market to circulate by fiat decree, and yet THERE IT IS. It is merely academic at the point of use, and many bullion banking participants rely on expectations of their future ability to settle their gold derivative positions with "delivery" of other gold derivatives. Such paper-based systems, fiat or NOT, are subject to boom and bust, and the bust is near.

Those who have risked their real gold into this global "free banking" system will likely be happy in the future with a shoebox investment strategy when they rebuild their lost positions after the collapse. After all, when the system has reached global size and central banks cannot themselves print gold to monetize the defaulting loans, there is no lender of last resort, is there? "Free banking" that fails to answer your prayers... incredible!

Please explain your rationale when you say that gold cannot be traded freely. We say it does today, albeit with its value hidden behind gold paper. We say it will tomorrow, with its value in plain view after the clearing flames.

Also, in response to the "inevitability" of fiat currency, or ANY such inflatable paper accounting system facilitated by banking of all stripes, please look honestly inward when you weigh your opportunity and choice as presented in my previous post...(msg#: 52480)

This became five times the size I originally intended. Yet, I hope the message isn't lost through undue length.

Kind regards.

Trail Guide (04/24/01; 20:37:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 52496)
Comment
Randy (@ The Tower) (04/24/01; 12:17:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 52461)
Trail Guide, you in particular may get a smile out of this...

Hi Randy,
Nothing holds still for long, does it. Good post, sir! I'll be back later to comment on more of the fine words said here today.

Thanks all
TrailGuide

Trail Guide (04/24/01; 20:25:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 52495)
Replies that help articulate
Simply Me (04/24/01; 03:46:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 52439)
Welcome and Thanks----
Welcome back Another and Trail Guide!------------

Thank you for reading, Simply Me. Hope it all has some impact on your thinking.
TrailGuide
===============

Econoclast (04/24/01; 08:35:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 52451)
-----I feel discouraged right now. Not because the gold price is low, not because of what is happenning in the gold market, and by extension the financial world, but because of the fact that what I see for the future is more of the same.--------

My friend, our message and our position is that we are in one of the most exciting times of all the history of gold! We have seen that during times with the most radical transitions, the majority are usually defending the wrong asset. This unfortunate situation need not impact everyone today. If better judgment is the result of a full understanding, then some who read here will be exposed to
tools that could help them avoid the mistakes of our Western hard money majority.

For Western Gold Bugs today, their culture, their system and their recent knowledge is all ensconced within the last 30 years of paper wealth. Yet they are using a hard money defense, written by masters preceding our modern era. They struggle to use that logic out of context, as it is thought to apply to this gold market today. These two precedents are leading them to reflect their gold values in some form other than physical ownership in possession. This mistaken detour from gold's true purpose will once again prove, by reality, the value of owning real gold.

Standing aside this group is the Physical Gold Advocate. For them, for us, these times will contain the greatest gain in real wealth ever seen. For those who are falling behind, gold is still within your grasp.

TrailGuide
================

Belgian (04/24/01; 09:17:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 52454)
Official Gold
Trail : Do agree with your correct observation. And...

Hello again Belgian,
you write:
----------We still remain completely in the dark as WHAT the intensions of the Official Gold-holders (OGH) are !--------

This is always a primary reason to own real gold, in possession. Gold Bugs talk endlessly about how these OGHs cannot forever manipulate the currency price of bullion. Then they go out and place themselves at the mercy of our warring OGHs, by owning gold investments that totally
depend on the OGHs not holding the currency price down.

My friends, wars evolve battles and battles destroy weapons. In this case, the main weapon of the dollar faction is their control of the paper price. As the ECB strikes this stronghold's credibility, that pricing structure of gold will completely fail. Throwing most Gold Bugs into disarray and their investments into valuation uncertainty.

Sir Belgian, I bid you success in your quest for security in physical gold. But disagree in your comment of: ------- We must all realize that there is NOT ENOUGH gold to permit a free market.------

There is enough gold in one ounce to service the entire world's wealth needs. Broken into single atoms and alloyed into coins (MK may agree on this (smile)) that single ounce would work for us all. At the right price, a free price, all the gold owned now could be enough. No more gold would need be mined for the rest of humanities time.

It is the price of gold that has been managed and distorted into a perceived commodity value range. Because gold does not fit into man's credit money systems, man always will attempt to use substitute gold for added supply. Even in a pure gold system, if gold is lent between two humans
they will try to alter the metal's purity to ease the pain of repayment.

thanks
TrailGuide
======

Trail Guide (04/24/01; 20:23:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 52494)
Replies that help articulate
Parsifal (04/24/01; 01:13:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 52434)
Comments/Questions on Latest Trail Hike

Hello Parsifal, you write:
--------Me:
If the U.S. held gold in custody for others, and then reneged on the custodial arrangement and denied the rightful claims others had on that gold, that would be outright fraud, theft, no? I expect that theft of gold has been going on since forever.-----------

Sir, We need to remember that most of this "showing off of gold stores, from this point forward will employ a lot of political gamesmanship. Not unlike the BOE auctions. In that case they aren't really selling that much gold into the market. The BIS could have taken it all real easy, but England wanted to drag it out for effect. That way they got the most exposure and time. Allowing some of their favorite BBs to escape before the Pound goes EMU.

In the same light, most of the real gold that has left the CBs ended up in other CBs as statistics show. Political gamesmanship! Same thing is in process with our West Point business. Political jockeying for more mileage. As an example; watch a newcomer ride into town pulling an open
trailer of cash. Every real estate broker from miles around will be at his feet. Now. that cash isn't in their possession, is it? Yet, it sure looks like it's been put on a trailer format for easy spending (grin). Custodial gold has the same effect in international gold paper players. Like these real estate agents, gold players now think they have USA bullion in the bank just because it's been placed in a trailer! (big smile)

Ha! Ha! Forgive me, I am laughing at my own story. My wife hates it when I do that while talking in public.

Parsifal, to more relate to your point; today, it's almost impossible to prove legal intent in the paper gold market. So, whether gold paper is backed or not is not worth asking. It's become so convoluted, the paper trails lose even the BBs. Note: If you want to own gold in storage, forget the
boiler room, leveraged shops that lure you in only to sell you something else. They will only sink with the flood tide that's coming. Deal with a straight, clean operation that traces your ownership in an unbroken line, right to the vault. In allocated storage. I saw the name of one of those dealers just a min ago? Starts with a C.

You write
-----Why do any of the EU CBs lend any of their gold at all? If it is so valuable, why lend it a such low rates (into certain default?) and why are they so anxious to sell it? It seems the sales quotas were met very quickly.------

Go back and read through the archives. We went through a lot of storage space on that one. Even so, we will return to that subject as this all unfolds.

You write my words first , then yours:
------Trail Guide:
Eventually, the US will walk right up to the gold window with the intentions of selling, only to fall away as they stair at a mountain of foreign CB dollars.

Me:
I don't understand this part. Would that be the U.S. govt. doing the selling? What would the U.S.
be selling, physical gold or paper gold? And what would the U.S. be trading for, ????? ----

Sir, It's all just political games, as in my analogy above. We will hear of the US getting ready to sell
as the the end time comes closer.

Thanks
TrailGuide
===================

Mr Gresham (04/24/01; 11:18:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 52459)
Belgian, Econoclast, Trail Guide

Hello Mr. G,
You said: ----- It looks like the German document (which I haven't more than glanced at yet) is an "example" of possible transactions, and under the ECB umbrella at that, and that the press release made more of it than it should.---------

Sir, you may have hooked a "big one" yourself. Such wording being possible transactions under the ECB umbrella is a prelude to some big time card dealing between the US and ECB. How about a gold for currency swap? US gold for Euros? (smile) Don't laugh too loudly, this may come yet!

Thanks
TrailGuide
============

USAGOLD,

I read in your Commentary & Review page that requests for info is way up! ------- Over the past weekend we received a flurry of requests for information packets -- one of the top weekends in USAGOLD history. -------------

That is very good to hear, indeed. The more we investors get the message and help ourselves to your services, the longer we can talk in your back yard (huge big smile)

Thank You, MK, for all your fine efforts
TrailGuide

JMB (04/24/01; 20:19:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 52493)
Problems!
http://newsnet.reuters.com/news/rcom:old_business/nN23276938.html
Q2 should be REAL ugly.

auspec (04/24/01; 20:15:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 52492)
Elwood/Trail Guide
What Is This Fish?
So this trophy fish is the gold changed to "Custodial" category as opposed to a German connection, eh? Offering up twenty-some percent of our gold reserves is pretty outrageous regardless of who or where!
Now to quote Trail Guide from Trail message #67: "When the US 'WALKS' FROM HONORING CUSTODIAL GOLD, once again like in 1971, that will be the end!" END
He obviously knows a great deal about what is actually happening/happened and will slowly reel US in like that big fish. Should be quite an event. In order for the Custodial Gold to be honored it first has to be PLEDGED, but to whom and why. You are likely right with MiddleEast and OIL. Was it ever going to be fully honored? Certainly not now with the hounds on the TRAIL! So, whatever this deal was it is now queered, and we are likely to soon see some manifestation of the deal going bad. The quid pro qou will be no mo'. Obviously a tie in with the USD as it is to meet its timeline with Custodial Gold renigging.
Who will be the one to 'name that fish'?? I can name it in 13 days..........
Elwood, thanks for all your thoughts and efforts. Trail Guide, I don't yet know what that fish is called, but it really reeks and we get it stuffed and mounted SOON!

YGM (04/24/01; 20:14:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 52491)
Randy..
Gilded Opinion Pages....
Thanks for the reminder....I had not thought of that section for months....One tends to forget that there is a very comprehensive education right here in the various sections of USA Gold. I see some new peices to keep me busy for a couple eves......Ken

Horatio (04/24/01; 20:13:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 52490)
Fire!Fire!
Anyone notice that when crude doesen't go up and oil companys spread the big lie via the media that somethings going up viola !a fire erupts just in time to prove it.
Ever notice that each refinery takes a turn at burning down!I sure would not insure a refinery especially when the news media is spreading word about pending shortages.There seems to be a self fulfilliing prophecy going on.
First you spread the idea via the propanganda machine and viola!a self fulfilling prophecy occurs.

On the subject of Ouebec ,if "free trade" is so good ,how come they need armed guards to enforce it?
It reminds me of the Berlin Wall ,all the traffic wants to go one way.If its such a good idea ,how come armed guards are needed?The peoples will, needs more violence not less .
Those that will enslave you will accuse you of violence
when you defend your rights.You can not be a gentleman and be polite when defending your freedom.The oppositions propaganda machine will use the media to get the docile public on thier side.The feminization of America will be its downfall.You can't defend freedom without violence,the founding fathers knew this,thats why you have the RIGHT to keep and bear arms. This is just an observation,not a proposal to ensight violence.IMHO.

ET (04/24/01; 20:13:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 52489)
Randy

Hey Randy - thanks for your thoughts. You write in part;

"An exercise in clear thinking"

"The setup:

"YOU are John Q. Public. You are young, energetic, highly skilled and intelligent. You have an established, reliable career
currently paying you $3,500 per month. You wish you pledge your future earning potential against a mortgage loan so
that your wife and small children can have a roof over their heads... a personal "castle" to call your own in which to feel
safe and "at home".

"Your dream comes true!:
The bank is willing to offer you a 30-year fixed term mortgage repayment contract in which you may choose from the
following options TODAY. (Any day in which you perform an action is always "today" by definition!)

"1) Monthly payments of U.S. currency totalling $1,120 per month over thirty years; or
2) Monthly payments of gold totalling 4 ounces per month over thirty years."

Interesting you bring this up. The third choice, of course, would be to save your money and pay cash for your home like people used to. Because of this fiat currency mess, which you seem to believe is the way to go, option three is no longer possible because excess credit has inflated the price of real estate beyond your ability to pay. At the same time it has strengthened governments hand in its ability to extract a higher percentage of your income in taxes. Going into massive debt, which by the way, favors bankers, is the only way one can afford a roof over one's head.

Why you would want to perpetuate this nonsense is beyond me. Insist on a gold standard, it is truly clear thinking.

auspec (04/24/01; 19:53:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 52488)
cb2 Post #52476
Per your post:
"The only true great achievements of man is open, representative democracy, and the greatest of all attempts throughout history to create such a system was the magnificent American experiment as expressed in the Constitution. Not perfect, but to paraphrase Winston Churchill, it's the best damn thing on the block."

And to think how badly we have mangled this experiment, nearly blowing up the entire chemistry building in the process. Very sad for our future generations {around the world}.
Enjoyed your essay greatly. Yes, the outcome of any fiat would be the s{h}ame.
a

ET (04/24/01; 19:49:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 52487)
FOA

Hey FOA - thanks for your thoughts. You write in part;

"The road before us is to not manage gold. Rather, stop it entirely. Forget about calling it official money and let it seek it's
own level against every fiat as a worldly wealth. In every other asset, we now have countless examples of other forms of
wealth that walk side by side with our current dollar system. Practically all of these have far outperformed (thanks Mr.
G.) our pure fiat dollar."

Your argument seems to run into trouble everytime we get to this point. For gold to find "its own level against fiat", it would, of course, have to trade freely in the marketplace. Yet, this is not what you seem to have in mind. Perhaps you could clarify this point. I'm beginning to believe you guys are simply using gold and its well known history as being the best money, to somehow convince us that the Euro is the best way to go following the dollar collapse. You keep asserting that fiat is inevitable when clearly it is not. You keep following this assertion with the idea that the Euro, with this so-called gold reserve, will somehow be better than the dollar is today because of superior management. Your premises are questionable. It would be helpful to your argument if you could show us some examples of this superior management which has apparently been ongoing within the EU.

"My friend, you should also read your scholars books again, for they tell the very same tale we do. We have read a few
(smile) and embrace their position, but our position stands aside the needs of a modern Gold Bug that prefers a "fiat"
gain on leveraged gold investments. We present it from a
Gold Advocate's stance, that holds gold itself as the wealth while embracing society's pennant for fiat."

And partner, I will continue to ask how your gold held as a "wealth asset" will ever see its true value reflected in a world where it cannot be traded freely. I would submit you would be better off holding Renoirs, as at least they trade freely.

FOA, I hope you understand as Randy apparently does not, that I only wish to understand what you are saying. I question all premises as I've been taught to do. When I believe I find flaws in this thinking I bring these to the forefront so they may be verified or rejected. This is how we all learn. Please accept these comments in the spirit of one attempting to learn the truth of the matter however clumsy these attempts might appear. Your patience is greatly admired. Thanks.

Elwood (04/24/01; 19:33:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 52486)
Trail Guide

Sir, may we proceed to the reasons why the Arab accepts the fiat, or do I need to return to the drawing board from my last?

Regards,
Elwood

R Powell (04/24/01; 19:32:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 52485)
http://www.oddparts.com
I 've found that trying to keep up on Internet information has me printing more and more pages with my bubble jet. My brother-in-law originally set up the entire computer system for us and showed me how to refill the printer's cartridge from the small, needle-nose dispenser bottle. This in turn gets refilled from the half quart ink bottle. I refill the cartridge every other day just by dripping ink into the bottom of the printer's dispenser. I thought everyone did this until I saw the hypodermic needle refill kits advertised on TV. Even those are way too costly.
The link is for supplies so that we can print all gold related info with going broke. There, I made this post gold related. Save money to buy more metal!
Rich

Galearis (04/24/01; 19:24:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 52484)
@ Netking re PRC silver
A well said defense of silver, sir!

Assuming the PRC IS supplying into the deficit, it may not be a decision taken for immediate economic gain. There may be a political factor in this. The relationship of China for silver, as you say, goes back as far as they have a history and it is firmly cemented into their value system.

Consider also their investment philosophy. Unlike the west, that likes to buy high (an attraction for bubbles) the eastern one holds the wiser coarse to buy low. One could assume that SELLING low would also be seen as unwise. If(?), IF these people are selling into the bottom X millions of ounces, there MUST be a political reason for it. Or they think the timing is wrong. They MUST be doing this to buy time, if not for themselves, then for some other entities in temporary alliance.

But it does not really matter either. The hole is much to big to fill in this way. It simply buys time, I hope for us all.

G

Randy (@ The Tower) (04/24/01; 19:16:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 52483)
YGM, your msg#: 52468 brought to mind this piece by Larry Parks in the Gilded Opinion
http://www.usagold.com/ParksPresident.html
It covers the subtle changes to the U.S. monetary system over time, including some graphics comparing the Federal Reserve Notes of 1914 agains 1993.

Enjoy!

R Powell (04/24/01; 19:16:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 52482)
Weekly Gold & Industry Update
http://www.tfc.com/syndication/marketmavensreport/taylor.html?G=MarketMavensReport&I
If I've got the link correctly, it will lead to a 15 page (printed) report by Jay Taylor.
Rich

Black Blade (04/24/01; 18:06:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 52481)
Natural Gas Prices Rise
http://www.energyintel.com/ResDocDetail.asp?document_id=41286
NG prices are rising again, especially in So. Cal. - up +$1.85. Should really get going higher come summer. Just a little bump in inflation ;-)

Randy (@ The Tower) (04/24/01; 17:46:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 52480)
An exercise in clear thinking
The setup:
YOU are John Q. Public. You are young, energetic, highly skilled and intelligent. You have an established, reliable career currently paying you $3,500 per month. You wish you pledge your future earning potential against a mortgage loan so that your wife and small children can have a roof over their heads... a personal "castle" to call your own in which to feel safe and "at home".

Your dream comes true!:
The bank is willing to offer you a 30-year fixed term mortgage repayment contract in which you may choose from the following options TODAY. (Any day in which you perform an action is always "today" by definition!)

1) Monthly payments of U.S. currency totalling $1,120 per month over thirty years; or
2) Monthly payments of gold totalling 4 ounces per month over thirty years.

Now, before you rush to a decision, keep this in mind: if all the gold ever mined were to be evenly divided among all living people, your total take would be two-thirds of a single ounce.

The choice:
Since YOU are now in the driver's seat to choose the terms of your payments, knowing what you know about paper and metal, which terms of settlement would you choose?

We shall all await your FINAL ANSWER with rapt attention.
------------------------------------------------------

You see, over time, it is billions of decisions like these that contribute to the establishment of our waking reality. It has been our experience that the preference of EVERY guest to The Tower has been for locking in the paper repayment terms, leaving the balance of the monthly income to devote to other items and necessities, and then whatever quantity of gold the remainder can buy...tangible wealth savings.

Did you choose to cast yourself symbolically, yet futilely, upon the golden sword of self-sacrifice, vowing to deliver over time increasingly precious gold as the global economy grows?

Just save the wealth, my friends. Just save it. (And with it, yourselves.)

Netking (04/24/01; 17:28:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 52479)
Randy @ The Tower - Chinese Silver
Randy(52458);
Sir, These volumes of PRC Silver being sold are very low, not like the CB Gold dumping.It still means the market runs at a deficit each year.

There is more that doesn't add up. China was the last country in the world to abandon the silver standard. Roosevelt's manipulation drove silver so high that in 1935 the Chinese had to drop silver.

A 1980 Wall Street Journal article highlighted smuggling silver into China. At that time China was undergoing an underground economy boom & the Chinese wanted to be paid in silver. Besides China's ancient adherence to the silver standard, there's a long history of Mexican silver dollars (in particular) financing the China trade. Even as late as 1980, they preferred those pieces of eight to any other kind of money.

We are asked to believe that these people with this history looked around at world markets & suddenly asked themselves, "Gosh, why are we holding on to this silver? It is $1.80 cheaper than it was a year ago. Let's sell now."

It just doesn't make sense, but you can't disprove it. So you get stuck in this quagmire, distracted from the central issue. It makes no difference who provided the silver to make up the shortfall in 2000, the transfer still doesn't make sense. If there's no good economic reason then you're acting from some non-economic reason.

If the lender is willing to accept a return that low, then it must be an asset he plans to keep anyway without any return at all.

Give the benefit of doubt to these central banks. A notion dreamed up 15 years or so ago attracted them. "Don't leave gold & silver lying fallow in their vaults. Do yourself a favour. Loan it out to us & we'll get you a return. It won't be a big return, but it will be a return & you don't have to report it, because we will call it a lease transaction. You can still keep it on your books & show a small return."

I think central bankers originally fell for that line, & they've loaned more & more every year. By now central bankers have to be wondering, "How am I going to get my silver back?" At least, any rational person would think that.

When I look at how they behaved over the EP-3(not to mention their efforts trying to park their cars!) nothing surprises me.

Cavan Man (04/24/01; 16:37:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 52478)
USAGOLD 52476
Vintage CB2!

Lafisrap (04/24/01; 16:01:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 52477)
Charts of COMEX Gold Stocks
http://www.sharelynx.net/Markets/Charts/CMXStockpiles.htm
At the link.

Scenario for consideration: 1) COMEX gold stocks approach zero. 2) Physical gold acquisition through COMEX becomes impossible. 3) COMEX either carrys on brokering bets on the POG or shuts down. 4) POG remains low, unchanged. Prices at the local coin dealer remain unaffected.

How could this happen? I don't know. But based on the pattern of events so far, in which the POG does not rise under any circumstances, it seems as likely as not.

Lafisrap

CoBra(too) (04/24/01; 15:48:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 52476)
The Great Gold Cover-Up @ Journeyman
Sir J-Man a great essay and even as I won't want to go into detail, as in E-gold, though I've learned to heed James Turk's advice over time.
I've been re-reading some belletristic in the aftermath of Watergate - even if the situation was different at the time - it is astounding that the scenario is similar.

And to quote a few para's from the introduction of this book by Jonathan Ryder (a.k.a. acclaimed novelist Robert Ludlum) published in 1973 the similarities just hit me:

The only true great achievements of man is open, representative democracy, and the greatest of all attempts throughout history to create such a system was the magnificent American experiment as expressed in the Constitution. Not perfect, but to paraphrase Winston Churchill, it's the best damn thing on the block.

But, someone's always trying to louse it up. It was the time of Watergate and my pencil flew across the pages in outrage of younger - not youthful - intemperance made my head explode with such words and phrases as Mendacity! Abuse of Power! Corruption! Police State!
Here was the government, the highest of our elected and appointed officials entrusted with the guardianship of our system, not only lying to the people but collectiong m(b)illions upon m(b)illions of $'s and thus the controls believed were theirs alone to excercise.
... Culminating in the most frightening statements to come out of Watergate hearings was delivered by, in essence, by the nations chief law enforcing officer.
" There's nothing I would not do to keep the presidency... " our's, no, their's?

Scary, 30 years ago, more scary today in the aftermath of almost another presidential impeachment, while the real reasons may only be revealed by history - though, I suspect they may be the same - mendacity, abuse of power and corruption. It's just the means which may have changed ... and to what ends? and that may be the real question...

An unconstitutional FED, with all the offspring agencies
as Freddies, Fanny's and other semi governmental agencies, supplemented by international org's IMF, WB, and yes even BIS, furthered by WTO, NAFTA, FTAA (as Quebec has shown once again the free trade globalists may only meet and discuss behind bars and fences - an abomination of their ultimate goal!) is calling the ultimate shots - for those, who hold the ultimate power - money corrupts and power corrupts ultimately - and as long as the spigot for today's money is corrupted ... and the alternatives are either as corrupt (with the exception of the EMU -A/FOA - just because no-one knows how ultimately corrupt his former neighbour, now compatriot, is, yet -), I bet the outcome will be the same.
What a shame - though sooner than later the new fiat of the EU - after all a historical precedent (forget the superimposed Reichsmark) - will succumb to the liqour, though the sheriff had it quicker - Little Joe, where d'you go ...so, just save the last golden bullets for me and you - cb2

YGM (04/24/01; 15:45:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 52475)
The Best Kept Secret in America....TAVISTOCK
http://www.barefootsworld.net/tavistok.html
The fellow Barefoot has quite a website......Full of useful info and wisdom......YGM

Lafisrap (04/24/01; 15:45:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 52474)
COMEX gold and silver warehouse stocks-April 24
http://www.futuresource.com/search.asp?source=story¶m='id=i4144588533873377281'&filename=story

COMEX gold stocks were reduced by slightly less than 2 per-cent today. See link for details.

beesting (04/24/01; 15:37:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 52473)
Correction Post # 52472.
Randy, I brought this to your attention Feb.7,2001 not April 7th sorry...beesting.

beesting (04/24/01; 15:29:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 52472)
Journeyman # 52464 Great Educational Post.
http://www.goldmoney.com/public/news/pr_2001-02-06.html
One other point Sir Journeyman,as I understand it, if I may add to your post, James Turks e-gold site has and is 100% backed by solid physical Gold!!!

The implications of this are, as I see it; We the People are allowed to exchange any type of paper currency at prevailing exchange rates into Gold Grams(100% Physically Gold Backed) and back into currency at our discretion, or we could deposit physical Gold or withdraw it at our discretion. OR if Sir Journeyman or Sir Elwood or ET want to buy or sell something to me ""WE"" would have the option to do our transaction in physical Gold!(Yes, legally certain taxes may still be involved) IMHO USAGOLD or the first ones to implement this system are REALLY going to benefit.(Randy I brought this to your attention April 7th)

The added bonus is as the non-Goldhearts find out about this system and slowly or quickly put paper assets into this e-gold system, within a short time(1-3 years)no matter how much Central Bank Gold is dumped into the market it would quickly by bought up by We the People until a REAL supply and demand price is reached for Gold!!!

Lets imagine you or I had just converted paper currency into 1000 Grams of Gold in our account today(current "spot" price about U.S.$265.00 per ounce or about $8.52 per gram) our current cost $8520.00 + commissions. If POG goes to $500 per ounce our $8520 e-gold savings account would now be worth $16,075.62. ***THE VALUE OF OUR GOLDEN ACCOUNT FLUCTUATES AS THE POG FLUCTUATES***!!!

Please, this post is not meant as an advertisement, it is only posted so We the People see the present and future benefit of owning physical Gold!
Thanks for Reading....beesting.

R Powell (04/24/01; 15:29:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 52471)
Thre fer three- hat trick day!
I do enjoy reporting hat trick days
POG up a little but both the lease rates and the XAU mining index made very respectable gains. Also of note, the mining stocks were especially strong during the last half hour of trading. This was noticeable a few weeks ago and has me wondering why? I haven't seen a consistent correlation with the ups and downs of the Dow and Duck. Any ideas??
However, I'd be happy if POG doubled tomorrow even if it did so for some unknown reason that no one had ever mentioned in the lifetime of this wonderful forum. Maybe the unknown sixth horseman will turn out to be Alan Greenspan's brother-in-law cornering the gold market with financial backing from Slick Willie. Hey, the poor guy has legal bills to pay!
Rich

Carl H (04/24/01; 14:40:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 52470)
Response to a Help Want Ad
I have a rather interesting story to relate that I think tells a lot about the state of the economy.

Our nanny is moving away and we are in the process of hiring a replacement. When we hired our present nanny in January, we had only four applicants and none of them had any education beyond high shool and in some cases a nanny school. It took us about one month to get the four applicants. We used both an agency and two local newspapers. There were several want ads for nannies at that time.

We started our search for a replacement last friday. We are taking almost exactly the same approach as last time. This time we are the only want ad for a nanny. After 4 or 5 days, we have at least eleven applicants and the phone seems to ring every couple hours with another candidate! Among the candidates so far are a preschool/grade school teacher and an accountant!

This really makes me wonder about the state of the economy! The change is like night and day! Given this reaction to the ad, I really have to wonder about some of the government statistics -- but they wouldn't lie to us, now would they!

JMB (04/24/01; 14:25:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 52469)
STEVE H
I may not be correct but I do honestly believe that the CNN article is not complete. Bill Murphy or Chris Powell or maybe it was James Turk....yes, it was Turk....stated that the West Point Gold was "coin melt" gold. From what I understand, "coin melt" gold has an alloy in it which would, when assayed, reveal that it came from the FDR confiscation in the 30's. That, of course, would tip off the gold world that the USA was dishording. We can not dishord without congressional approval. If this is true, somebody should go to jail. But it won't happen because our system is corrupt. The only people who could spend some time in the Crow Bar Hotel are Murphy, Powell, and Turk. Venerosa, he'll get the gas chamber.

YGM (04/24/01; 14:22:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 52468)
Passing on this site from a friend.......
http://www.barefootsworld.net/prophesy.html
In Part......

In the book, "Pieces of Eight," Dr. Edwin Vieira writes:

"On June 24, 1968 the United States, finally, abandoned the silver standard applicable since Queen Anne's proclamation of 1704, and embraced a system of fiat bills of credit (e.g. alleged currency) based on irredeemable, legal tender, Federal Reserve Notes and debased, legal tender, clad coinage, never to be declared as lawful money of the United States."

Through misguided trust, our duly elected sworn public officials took our lawful currency and changed it to unconstitutional bills of credit (irredeemable Federal Reserve Notes), which continues to circulate only because of the public's continuing, misplaced confidence in these notes. The word "legal tender" on today's notes are not a magic incantation; they impart NO intrinsic value to money, nor do they entitle the bearer to exchange these notes for lawful specie. They are a throwback to feudal days when the sovereign could, and did, issue a proclamation declaring what was to be used as "money" whenever he wanted to debase the circulating medium.

INSCRIPTIONS ON FEDERAL RESERVE NOTES
1913 . . . TO . . . 1934
"Redeemable in Gold on demand at the United States Treasury or in Lawful money, at any Federal Reserve Bank." "Will pay to the bearer on demand one dollar."

1934 . . . TO . . . 1968
"This note is legal tender for all debts public and private and is redeemable in lawful money at the United States Treasury, or any Federal Reserve bank." "Will pay to the bearer on demand one dollar."

1968 . . . TO . . . 1998
"This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private"
THERE IS NO PROMISE TO PAY, NOR IS A NOTE A DOLLAR!!

And the New $100 "off center" Franklin bill issued in 1998 and the other "off center" bills issued since are no longer even against a Federal Reserve Bank, the Seal is that of the Federal Reserve System . . .

Welcome to the "System" . . . !!!

Mr Gresham (04/24/01; 14:09:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 52467)
Why are these recent numbers familiar?
http://www.kitco.com/cgi-bin/daily_graphs.cgi
The NY closes on Sept 22, 23, 24 (before WA Spike Monday, Sept 27, 1999) were: 264, 266, and 268.40

SteveH (04/24/01; 14:03:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 52466)
JMB
He has read the articles in CNN and worldnews.

JMB (04/24/01; 14:02:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 52465)
STEVE H
Does your business partner understand the alleged deception of the alleged gold swap with the Krauts?

Journeyman (04/24/01; 13:39:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 52464)
The REAL Great Golden Cover-up @Trail Guide, Elwood, Belgian, Randy, Aristotle, ALL (& Econoclast #52451)

Trail Guide, we DON'T need fiat, and neither "the people" nor
"society" decided to go from the classical gold standard (which
had over a century of largely unmolseted use ~1800 thru 1912) to
FED fiat. That change was foisted on "the people" AND "society"
by the banking-government cliques, with the express purpose of
profiting these two groups (and their brown-nosers, suck-ups and
hangers-on) at the expense of the rest of the population.

True, the cliques came up with a few flimsey excuses. Like they
would put an end to the boom-bust business cycle, end
unemployment, and give "us" a stable currency. As the first
test, only 20 years after making those promises in the form of
the Federal Reserve Act, these cliques gave us the Great
Depression. The stable currency they promised depreciates EVERY
year. And even _the rate of depreciation isn't stable,_
officially varying even here in the "stable" U.S.of A. at rates
varying between ~1% per year and as much as 16% per year. And
that's BEFORE Big Float hits the beaches.

It's true that certain groups within society regularly attempt to
subvert things to favor themselves, ultimately at the expense of
others. Pedophiles would love to have open season on children,
I'm sure.

But just because pedophiles want kids and banker-government
cliques want fiat doesn't mean we should give in to them. During
the 100 or so years of the classical gold standard, one of the
most prosperous periods in history, the banksters were turned
back regularly, most notably by Thomas Jefferson and later,
Andrew Jackson. At least we still punish pedophiles.

As far as the euro being backed by gold, well Nobelist Robert
Mundell, in an interview I have somewhere, admitted he had to
trick the Eurocrats into including gold in the euro-backing mix
at all. And it's merely window dressing - - - "Look, we have
gold, we have gold," they say, jumping up and down. But is their
currency tied to that gold in any meaningful fiat-supply-limiting
way? If their gold reserves decline, will they take an
equivalent value of euros out of circulation? I think we all
know the answer to that.

It is indeed true that once banker-government cliques gain
control of the money, eventually they debase it. However the
ability to make that debasement stick depends on the absence of a
better competing currency. Andrew Dickson White cleary describes
this in his classic "Fiat Money Inflation In France":

"To reach the climax of ferocity, the Convention decreed, in
May 1794, that the death penalty should be inflicted on any
person convicted of 'having asked, before a bargain was
concluded, in what money [assignats or specie (gold and
silver)] payment was to be made.' The great finance
minister, Cambon, soon saw that the worst enemies of his
policy were gold and silver. Therefore it was that, under
his lead, the Convention closed the Exchange and finally, on
November 13, 1793, under terrifying penalties, suppressed
all commerce in the precious metals." -Andrew Dickson White,
Fiat Money Inflation In France, (Irvington-on-Hudson, New
York: The Foundation for Economic Education, INC. 1959), p.
78 & 79

That lesson was certainly learned by later banksters, and for the
last 30 years or so, the cliques have managed, by hook or by
crook, using scotch-tape, chewing-gum, bailing wire and lately
duct tape, to keep her runn'n. Gold demonized and other shaky
fiats as the only alternatives. But lately the biggest fiat of
all is about to be sent to the scrap-yard. (Scotty has been over-
heard to say of that U.S.S. Fiat Enterprise, "I canna hold 'er
together much longer, Captain. She's gonna blow!)

The natural transition after such a humongous disaster would be
back to gold, but as FOA has stated, "they" aren't about to let
that happen. If "they" can stop it. Can they? I don't think
so.

Actually, in a certain sense I agree with you TG. And Randy and
Aristotle: As long as gold is connected to a banker-government
fiat, it's value is in danger of being debased by hollow paper or
electronic promises.

Further, I agree that no banker-government clique in it's right
mind would offer the world a solid convertible gold-backed
currency solely because such an honest and moral currency would
force them to give up their power to manipulate and rob the rest
of us through monetary policy, fiscal policy - - - and inflation.
Etc.

And further yet, such a transition back to gold would be most
disruptive of the current economic and political "order."

But those problems are being overcome and the grass-roots
transition back to gold is already underway. See, the basic
problem isn't with the gold; it's with the hollow promises - -
and a failure by almost everyone to discount them properly. This
situation was engineered by removing the sound-money option from
view, just as French Finance Minister Cambon did, but without so
much obvious violence. That's the "The REAL Great Golden Cover-
up."

Once people once again have easy access to that hard money option
in an easy to use cheap and convenient form however, all fiats
will suffer the fate they always have thruout history as people
can once again easily compare the performance of fiat with that
of transactional gold. It is particularly ironic that the very
manipulations and gyrations the cliques have performed recently
guarantee that there will be a dramatic run-up in gold to
highlight that difference just at the right time.

Where will this gold transaction money come from if no
government-banker clique will issue it? You already know don't
you? E-GOLD in various forms from various private organizations.
James Turk and his associates are one of the latest entrants into
the new E-GOLD arena, for example.

And TG, while the modern world does indeed need electronic
transfer, we don't need fiat per-se to accomplish that electronic
transfer.

How can you possibly transfer gold electronically? Check-out E-
GOLD.COM for a great example of how this is accomplished. And
yes, you have to be careful that the gold you think you have is
actually there.

E-GOLD also has that base fairly well covered by real-time
transparent inventory data and independent verification of gold
on hand. Interesting to compare that to the Fort Knox situation,
where there hasn't been any inventory taken for what, the last 40
some years? Helps illustrate the difference between private hard
money and the "official" bankster-government imitation.

On-line commerce has been growing exponentially. There has been a
year-on-year increase of 36% in those making an on-line purchase
and fully half of the U.S. population has now made such a
purchase. Online sales volume is estimated at over $36 billion
dollars. Why is this relevant? Because, according to Greenspan,

"...imports of goods and services as a percentage of gross
domestic products worldwide, on average, have risen from
approximately 12 percent forty years ago to 24 percent
today." -Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan, Testimony
on Trade policy to Senate Finance Committee, April 4, 2001
[link in message header]

This means that aproximately 24% of transactions are cross border
transactions which, if done in fiat, require all sorts of
exchange-rate contortions - - - which increase transactional
costs. And how much is a Belarusian ruble worth? Or for that
matter, a franc, pound or yen? And will they still be worth as
much when payment arrives? Could they possibly go the way of the
Ecuadorian Sucre?

When those transactions are done in E-GOLD, the transaction costs
are less. And a gram of gold is a gram of gold in U.S.A.,
Mogadushu, East Timore and even Timbuktu. And it'll still be
"worth" a gram of gold next month or even next century.

And finally, Belgian, I enjoy and agree with nearly all of your
fine posts. BUT I have one substantive disagreement with your
msg#: 52454 "Official Gold". You suggest that, "We must all
realise that there is NOT ENOUGH gold to permit a free market."
This is simply NOT the case. As Mises notes, just like any
product, the value of gold will expand to fill the need. ORO
also thoroughly addressed the "shortage of gold" fallacy awhile
back, may it R.I.P. (I'd supply the post numbers - - - if we had
a search facility Hint hint!)

Regards,
Journeyman

P.S. Right on, Elwood!!

P.P.S. I have no current financial interest in any particular E-
GOLD provider.

SteveH (04/24/01; 13:38:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 52463)
Another at gold trail testing...
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) (04/24/01; 06:03:56MT - usagold.com msg#68)
test
thank you

My partner (business) says he doesn't see what is wrong with the US "swapping" gold. Any takers want to let loose on that one?

BH (04/24/01; 13:19:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 52462)
Gold lease rates sharply rising
http://www.lbma.org.uk/2001gofo.htm

Randy (@ The Tower) (04/24/01; 12:17:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 52461)
Trail Guide, you in particular may get a smile out of this...
http://www.imf.org/external/np/exr/facts/gold.htm
since it coincides with the latest discussion regarding subtle changes to verbiage of official gold reporting.

Naturally, you remember we discussed the IMF's late-1999 through early-2000 off-market gold operations conducted with Mexico and Brazil. It seems the IMF, in small degree, capitulated to the better "international practice" of recognizing gold's market value rather than maintaining the arbitrary fictional valuation of SDR35 per ounce.

It now seems that the IMF is *****smoothing the way**** for other future steps in this direction toward recognizing the free gold market value. In March, the IMF changed the language on its website regarding the balance sheet valuation of its gold holdings. Instead of the old proclamation that the majority of its gold was held at SDR35 on the balance sheet, the IMF now states its gold holdings are valued on the balance sheet "on the basis of historical cost".

While this is valuation remains numerically consistent with the prior method due to the original arrival of much of this gold at the SDR35 equivalent "cost", it certainly cracks the door a bit further toward easily and openingly recognizing the higher free market value for gold, and might thus signal full capitulation in this regard all the sooner.

Randy (@ The Tower) (04/24/01; 11:34:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 52460)
"The world economy is certainly in a quite critical phase," says IMF's Koehler
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010424/n247949.html
Has anyone noticed how, in its operations and proddings, the Washington DC-based IMF tends to exhibit meddlesome traits of a socialist-leaning *government*, whereas the Basel-based BIS displays moreso the characterisics of a capitalistic *bank*. Just food for thought if you decide to silently root for one or the other to prevail at this "critical phase".

In reading the road ahead, does anyone else see the subtle significance that the BIS has chosen Mexico City, rather than Washington DC, as the site for its Representative Office for the Americas, to be opened by year's end?

(You may recall that Hong Kong was the site chosen for the July 1998 opening of its Representative Office for Asia and the Pacific. Together, these are the only two Representative Offices outside of the headquarters in Basel, Switzerland.)

Mr Gresham (04/24/01; 11:18:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 52459)
Belgian, Econoclast, Trail Guide
Belgian: "The gold-sale fanfare is playing into the cards of private goldholders (accumulators). It looks like individuals are plundering the collectivity's gold ? "

And so they will not mind if we pick up a few scraps from the table. In an a-moralistic world, you can make your own decision about joining in with this. I say, "pick your battles carefully. Survive, and make your best contribution to morality as you may. Having met more of my limitations lately than I knew about before, I'm grateful for the opportunity to make a choice in this."

Econoclast: The crisis was already in the cards. Of course, the people will bear the burden. Just as when (as Oro says) the first plundering "knights" had castles built up to institutionalize their theft of the people around them.

Of course the "entrepreneurial types" adopted "socialistic" "we're all in this together" rhetoric to keep the slaves a-workin' for them. "Socialism", as you call it, today is a wholly-owned subsidiary of "capitalism", as it exists today. And neither is what they were advertised to be, but are owned by the Power Construct.

Trail Guide: "The only "big fish" that was caught (and it is a very big one GATA should be proud of for sure!!) was the actual reclassification at West Point. "

This should at least put the US on alert NOT to try such disgorging of any physical reserves, having alerted some media to watch for it. (?) It looks like the German document (which I haven't more than glanced at yet) is an "example" of possible transactions, and under the ECB umbrella at that, and that the press release made more of it than it should. As I wrote before, I doubt the Germans would let ANY of their gold go newly "custodial" within US borders, at this late date. Of course the reclassification could and should be enquired about of the appropriate officials, no? Back later perhaps with a better expression after reading...

Randy (@ The Tower) (04/24/01; 10:38:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 52458)
Follow-up on my comment last week that China has lately been a net been seller of silver
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010424/n24368324.html
----- April 24 (Reuters) - China is likely to continue selling its government silver stocks in the next two years, but at slightly reduced volumes from 1999, when record central bank sales were flooding the silver market...----

Philip Klapwijk, managing director of GFMS, explained at Monday's conference of the Gold and Silver Institute that China sold near 60 million ounces of silver in 1999, with additional sales of 40 million ounces per year likely over the next couple years. Continuing...

----- From 1998 to 2000, net sales from China exceeded 100 million ounces, said Klapwijk, exiting the country via local markets through Hong Kong and Shanghai to India, the world's main consumer of precious metals, and through direct People's Bank of China exports to Europe.
+
China has not been alone in mobilizing official silver. Total government sales from China, Russia and the former Soviet states, the United States and others were more than 180 million ounces in the 1998 to 2000 period, he said.-----

China is simply lagging by one Century in performing this act. Many of the other nations of the world unleased their silver reserves near the arrival of the 1900's when the usage of silver was abandoned as redundant within the banking sector. And in contrast, not surprisingly, global gold reserves have GROWN since those days. Further, the dollar can be expected to suffer a worse fate than silver when it, too, loses its particular reserve and settlement role within the international banking system. And gold? All reasonable signs show that it shall maintain the king position as THE reserve asset par excellence for a long time to come. Get you some.

ge (04/24/01; 10:23:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 52457)
Gold for Competing Equals, Fiat for Superpowers?
http://www.columbia.edu/~ram15/LBE.htm
The following quotations from Mundell, does suggest that the insistence on the fiat Euro could have political, rather than sociological/human origins.

It appears as if Europe visualises the possibility of being a superpower and reaping its benefits.

Mundell's name is associated with the creation of the Euro.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/the_economy/newsid_472000/472969.stm

BEGIN QUOTE

From 1666 to 1934, seven great powers existed. With the possible exception of Britain, there was no superpower, Britain was the first of equals. Think of gold as the sun and theses superpowers as the planets. What if one of the planets in our solar system, say Jupiter, keeps getting bigger and bigger until it becomes bigger than the sun? What would Newtonian dynamics tell us about what would happen in that case? Eventually, if it gets really big, Jupiter is going to take the position of the sun and the
other planets are going to move around Jupiter rather than the sun. Eventually, the sun itself would orbit around Jupiter.

That is what happened to the international monetary system in the 20th century. One country outstripped the others and caused a new framework. This occurred when the dollar domain became bigger and bigger and was allied to the prestige of gold with the anchored dollar standard from 1915 to 1924. The dollar became the center of the system and the world started to base its reckoning on the dollar rather than gold as the unit of account in that system.
�..

Historically, whenever there has been a superpower in the world, the currency of the superpower plays a central role in the international monetary system. This has been as true for the Babylonian shekel, the Persian daric, the Greek tetradrachma, the Macedonian stater, the Roman denarius, the Islamic dinar, the Italian ducat, the Spanish doubloon and the French livre as it has for the more familiar pounds sterling of the 19th century and the dollar of the 20th century. The superpower typically has a veto
over the international monetary system and because it benefits from the international use of its currency, its interest is usually in vetoing any kind of global collaboration that would replace its own currency with an independent international currency.

In the 1870s, the United States and France were campaigning for international monetary reform in the sense of an international return to bimetallism and the development of a standard international unit of account. Which country was saying no? It was Britain, the leading world power in the 19th century. As top power, or at least "first among equals," Britain always said no to international monetary reform, no to an alternative to the pound as a unit of account and the sterling bill as the most important
means of payment. But when Britain's star faded and America's rose, the positions were reversed, with Britain wanting international monetary reform and the United States, the new superpower, rejecting it.

END QUOTE

Old Yeller (04/24/01; 09:49:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 52456)
Randy,thoughts on your #52423 on foreign exchange reserves

You present some interesting information,especially on the growth of reserves,(mainly,of course,US dollars)at 12% per year.Add to this,the fact that most of this growth has been in Asia,where we all know,the strategy is to export your country to prosperity.At the end of the day,however,what to do with your surfeit of dollar reserves?

When you take this,along with some rather revealing statistics posted yesterday by Leonard Kaplan in his Prospector commentary'some dangerous looking imbalances become quite obvious.According to the WGC,the official gold reserves as a % of total reserves is falling relentlessly;1970;43.9%,1975;47.1%,1980;62.4%1985;45.8%1990;32.7%,1995;23.45,2000;12.7%.

It would appear as if the central bank community have loaded their reserve canoes in a fashion that could prove difficult'should they run into any white water in the river ahead.

USAGOLD (04/24/01; 09:25:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 52455)
Today's Report: What Our Clients Are Telling Us
http://www.usagold.com/Order_Form.html
"Knowing as much as I do about the way central banks all over the world are
printing money like confetti, again to help people pay for the rising price of oil, I
now expect the biggest and longest gold boom in a century." Adrian van Eck/
Money Forecast Letter

4/24/01 (www.usagold.com ). . . . Gold was off marginally
for the second straight day today in quiet trading. There was little in
the way of fresh news to take the yellow metal in one direction or the
other. If recent activity in the gold market is an indicator, physical
buyers are poised to buy on any dip below the $260 level.

Physical demand at Centennial Precious Metals/ USAGOLD remains
steady with buyers citing long-term diversification and the historically
low constant-dollar price as their primary motivations. They
additionally cite the bear stock market, potential utility defaults and
burgeoning inflation as more immediate concerns. Over the past
weekend we received a flurry of requests for information packets --
one of the top weekends in USAGOLD history. We would attribute
that to the psychological effect of the stock market's inability to
sustain a rally.

In talking with a large number of clients over the past few weeks, our
informal polling points suggests investors are concerned about an
inflationary, energy driven recession. It is amazing how many
investors are aware of the out-of-the-box money creation by the
Federal Reserve and how that might impact the economy and
dollar-based investments as rates are ratcheted down further.

We continue to advise aggressive diversification into gold from
10%-30% of total assets (sans residence). The level of diversification
is a personal commitment based upon your own view of the economic
situation. Investor interest continues to be divided between pre-1933
European gold coins and the contemporary bullion coins with the
weighting strongly in favor of the older European low-premium
coinage. Interest in silver seems to be picking up among those
looking to speculate a bit, but the interest is marginal.

Our IRA program has been met with substantial interest. We have
ushered through a number of conversions. Might it be time to capture
stock market profits in your IRA with a little good old-fashioned,
historically solid, unencumbered, liability-free yellow gold? At these
prices, we can't see how it would hurt. Call George Cooper
(800-869-5115) to have your questions answered.

That's it for the next few days, my friends, unless we get a break in
the market or some salient news pops-up. MK

To read these reports regularly, please join us at
our private access COMMENTARY & REVIEW
page. A quick, one-time, Registration is required. Pleasae go to the link at the top of this post. It includes
free trial access to Commentary & Review, a free information
packet on gold ownership, News & Views -- our popular
newsletter, and our Client Intro to Centennial Precious
Metals/USAGOLD (by mail).

Belgian (04/24/01; 09:17:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 52454)
Official Gold
Trail : Do agree with your correct observation. And...
We still remain completely in the dark as WHAT the intensions of the Official Gold-holders (OGH) are ! The best we can produce is the closiest "interpretation" of the scarce facts. Reclassification and the parties involved makes me saying "ligthness of being". In other words : how do official goldholders act upon the gold-reserve ? How "important" is it or how much importance is left or has it become more important than ever ? Interpretation of "political actions". If any ?
On this interpretation aspect we have a different opinion, but the final result will be the same revaluation of Gold.

The reason I personally, accumulate physical gold is the rising distrust towards the collectivity. All forum posters
here, have their specific, individual reasons, for having that same distrust. That's why I have very strong doubts about the gold-management of the OGH. If they "manage" it at all ? I am not impressed with Their 30.000 tonnes out of 140.000 above and much more underground. As long as precise and reliable statistics about increasing or decreasing official gold, are not available...we continue to rely on our interpretation on what, we suppose, to recognize as "the management" of citizen's gold.
Are the OGH "forced" to cover up (manage) a tremendous gold-derivative mistake, made by opportunistic, profit bucaneers ? Or/and have they been using gold-reserves at the collectivity's service ? I am afraid that OGH don't have a gold plan or even golden intentions. Eventough POG's behaviour might suggest otherwise. Banal derivative-speculation is most probably the reason why gold anomalies are detected.

I prefer to stick with my individual self-defense, motivation. Private gold, undone from its speculative shackles, will go where it has to go.

I do agree that OGH can't impossibly increase the amount of total gold-reserves. Dollar protection and POG explosion risks. The gold-sale fanfare is playing into the cards of private goldholders (accumulators). It looks like individuals are plundering the collectivity's gold ? Because the paper has no value anymore and is not that convenient for looting. These powerfull individuals remain unidentified of course for us humble subjects.
Quite a strong statement...but what else, do I have to conclude when all questions about citizen's goldreserves remain unanswered by the ones we have been voting for.

A free goldmarket is an honest market where the individuals are capable of deciding what they consider the most appropiate form for wealth storage. As long as OGH refuse to give gold this open and free status...distrust and confusion will increase. We must all realise that there is NOT ENOUGH gold to permit a free market. Therefore it is very difficult to make a choice between the two gold-price manipulators : officials or private entities ?

Carl H (04/24/01; 09:12:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 52453)
Coincidence?
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010424/ts/safrica_clinton_dc_1.html
I find it interesting that Clinton is choosing now to visit South Africa. I would hope that someone down there questions him about this ESF gold price manipulation.

CoBra(too) (04/24/01; 08:46:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 52452)
US Consumer confidence fell 6th. time in seven months...
Hmm...wasn't the US consumer of last resort regarded as the only barrier left standing, or better upholding the global economy. Kurt Richeb�cher postulated the US consumer is the US Economy, an the US consumption is all that's left between growth and a global downturn (recession).

Now the only things left are the credit, RE and USD bubbles, with further erosion of the SM's turning the former wealth effect into reverse. AG, hitting the panic button of rapid rate reductions won't revive the maxxes out consumer. The inherent systemic risks he may have targeted are therefor only camouflaged a little while longer and as the USD's safe haven mirage is slowly fading into history -gold will have its day - I'd say - cb2

Econoclast (04/24/01; 08:35:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 52451)
Thank you
to everyone who contributes to making this site what it is. Thank you to our hosts who provide this forum and manage it extremely well, and thank you to all the posters. It blows me away how many words some of you can actually contribute. My hands feel "tongue-tied" at the keyboard sometimes and I just am amazed at how much some of you have in you.

I feel discouraged right now. Not because the gold price is low, not because of what is happenning in the gold market, and by extension the financial world, but because of the fact that what I see for the future is more of the same.
The CB's and large bullion banks have been colluding to depress the POG. Each for their own reasons. Financial (mis)management of the economy has built a very unstable system. When it all falls down for the dollar and its economy, What will happen? Will the FED be scrapped and a special prison be built for all the bankers that should be put away?
No. We the People will bear ALL the burden of righting the system. All the bankers who have made a living off of shorting gold will be 10 (100?) times as rich as they were before, since they have all been (IMHO) buying personally, the gold that their employers have been selling (a la Martin Armstrong). And because of the retrenchment and draconian measures that will be necessary to save the financial system, the Lords will be given even more power, in fact, everything they ask for.

I have often wondered how the ruling families that have built dynasties out of capitalism could be so socialistic. Shouldn't they pay homage to the system that got them where they are?
I realize that the answer is "no". Now that they are where they are, they want to stay there forever.
Capitalism rewards innovation. Socialism rewards the status quo. Of course they would now be socialistic.

My third thought today, is that even if the shennanigans become front page news, and the whole world is completely outraged,
Gold will never go up until people want to buy it.

Hope I haven't bummed anyone out this morning, I'm really an optimist.

YGM (04/24/01; 07:14:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 52450)
Trail Guide & Ross
Bankers in my humble estimation "ARE" all birds of a feather, and as such "WILL" always flock together.....YGM

****Many of us sit in our blinds with auto loaders and birdshot.....GATA has many sharpshooters among the ranks..

Trail Guide (04/24/01; 07:10:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 52449)
Recession still on the cards
http://www.usagold.com/DailyQuotes.html

From USAGOLD news feed:

-----Recession still on the cards despite Fed cut----

by ANDREW SMITHERS

The US economy has several problems. Among the most
serious are too much investment and too much debt. The
stock market bubble has been the root cause of both.
Capital has been too cheap.

The Federal Reserve has just cut interest rates, saying it hopes this will encourage more investment. If it does, it must also mean more debt. As the adage has it: 'Those whom the gods wish to destroy, they first
make mad.'

Investment is unlikely to stop falling just because borrowing is cheaper. Companies have invested too much, so there is lots of spare capacity. There is no point, even with lower interest rates, on building more plants. Already, businesses can make more than they can sell.

If investment keeps falling, the outlook for the economy is poor. The big risk is that consumption will also weaken. This would turn a weak economy into a full-blown
recession. ------------------------

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/dynamic/news/top_story.html?in_review_id=384044&in_review_text_id=330122

=========================

Randy, keep up your good work of noting the Fed's money printing! As this recession bites, you may need a full crew to document the cash flow (smile). What a combination;

hyper-inflation,,, cheap contract gold,,,, and exploding prices for physical gold. We just got to see it to believe it!

Thanks for all you do
TrailGuide

Trail Guide (04/24/01; 06:53:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 52448)
Comment

Sir Belgian,

We have partial evidence that a gold swap between the US and the Bundesbank is considered legal. But no evidence the event occurred.

We have evidence that the Bundesbank has lent and sold some gold. But, their accounting over time does not show any drop of gold stocks larger than expected. Further, their gold lending could have been (and probably was mostly) in "nominee" form for the BIS.

We have evidence that the ESF can do swaps of their currency assets for other's gold. But no evidence that they have attached the West Point gold in exchange for other's gold.

The only "big fish" that was caught (and it is a very big one GATA should be proud of for sure!!) was the actual reclassification at West Point. Truly, this "event" is right in line with our view of current "political actions".

We shall see.
TrailGuide

RossL (04/24/01; 06:21:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 52447)
Bundesbank gold
FOA - gold trail msg#67 - writes:
"There is no logic in that the Bundesbank would risk it's gold."

Belgian - msg#: 52442 - writes:
"The US/Germany Gold-swap is evidence of the "lightness of being" of the official collectivity. They mis-manage the left-over fat of the rich meat-pots. Official Gold is the last value that they can use (give away) for extending the illusion."

Bravo, sir Belgian for writing the truth! But, could there have been a large Deutsch bank that was short gold and needed to be bailed out? I would imagine that the ECB will assure that all or most of the European banks are stable before the gold price gets accelerated.

I wonder, how many other smaller central banks were "encouraged" to make gold swaps with the ESF...

YGM (04/24/01; 06:14:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 52446)
Black Blade
Smoke, Mirrors, and Manipulation......W/ N.G.
My friend the recent major upticks in N. Gas value is as you suspect nothing more than preparation for future events. The N. Slope is full of untapped NG reserves. They currently use injection wells to dispose of it as there is no pipeline for N. gas. (as you probably know that is the practice of using depleted oil well sites for underground storage) Yukon has vast known reserves as yet barely defined. NWT and N. British Columbia have much known and many more undefined reserves. Pipelines thru Yukon have had permits in place for 20+ yrs. My sense of the future from all I hear locally and from those I know in the industry is that two if not three lines are in the works. One thru Yukon and one thru MacKenzie River Basin in NWT. Clearly these events are all part of preplanned scenarios. Those scenarios are now coming to fruition. As with PM's and all we see in the financial world the "Money Mongers" are way ahead of the public in the 'Curve'......Little is left to chance when those with the money make the rules and set the timeframe. You may file this in your FWIW Column......Your brother at arms...YGM

PS: As I may have told you this before, I regress. We have swamps in Yukon that bubble Gas to surface and during -40 degree weather will actually make car engines backfire when passing by on Hwy to Dawson City.....I look forward to your updates on current news as always...Regards...Ken

Gold Trail Update (04/24/01; 06:03:57MDT - Msg ID:52445)
The Gold Trail Discussion has been Updated
The Gold Trail Discussion has been updated. Click on the link to read the latest updates.

Simply Me (04/24/01; 04:54:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 52444)
Who used to be a millionaire?
http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/invest/2001-04-23-who-used-to-be-millionaire.htm
By Jim Hopkins and Jon Swartz, USA TODAY
<snip>
Melisa Paye-Mose was dumbstruck to learn
she had become a millionaire.

Her husband, Jeff Mose, employee No. 16 at
wireless software maker Aether Systems, had
struck gold, 1990s-style. His stock options in
the newly public company exploded from
pennies a share in 1999 to $45, then blew past
$100, $200 and $300 a share.

"That was when it really hit me," Paye-Mose
recalls. "We were going to have some money
to do things with � some real money."

Indeed, when Aether peaked at $345 a share
on March 10, 2000, the Baltimore-area couple
living paycheck to paycheck just a few years before
� were worth $4.4 million. "Your son's a millionaire!"
Mose boasted to his mom.

But then the roller coaster screamed south, snatching with it the couple's portfolio. Its value today: $600,000.
<unsnip>
<snip>
"There was an unbelievable sense of smugness and a 'We're the best' attitude when prices peaked," says Ben Fuller, 33, who wore the millionaire stamp for 10 months. "Now, it's an unsettled feeling of, 'How do we handle being out of
vogue?' "
<unsnip>
<snip>
David Callisch, 40, a self-described blue-collar guy in San Jose, Calif., and former spokesman at Alteon WebSystems, had stock worth $8 million shortly after it was bought by Nortel Networks last year. He held on and saw it plummet to less than $1 million.

"I blew it," he says. "It was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity that I let slip away. It's frustrating and embarrassing."
<unsnip>

And lot's of similar stories.
Will folks with their gold "on paper" people be telling similar stories in a year or two?
FWIW,
simply

PS.....Mother's Day is coming soon. Here's a recommendation from the veteran of many, many, Mother's Days. Next to hand-made cards from the kiddies, the perfect gift is gold coin jewelry! The 10th ounce makes a beautiful necklace...and there are shiny new Pandas, and beautiful old French Angels and Roosters to choose from. Maybe Randy could come up with more suggestions.
Hope my husband and kids read this!

Topaz (04/24/01; 04:19:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 52443)
Slingshot, all
Thanks mate.
Thinking more on this Shell/Woodside thing, it's curious to note certain factors/events in this play.
1. Shell, I thinking, would be "Eurocentric"
2. The play (hostile Takeover) was pitched at only 55%, ie: sufficient to control W-side, whose responsibility in the NW Shelf venture (tipped to become Australia's "primary" Primary Resource) is the global marketing of the NG.
3. From the time of the T/over announcement until now, a "freetrade" agreement has been ratified with the US and a swarm of Aussie pollies have been beating a path to Washington to suck up to the Americans.
4. The rejection of the Bid was totally unexpected.

It's not often the $US/E "battle" is visible on the surface.....this..I think...is one of those times.

Sadly, the logical conclusion is a "peg" to the Dollar (overt or covert - doesn't seem to matter nowaday's) @ $0.50 is in the wind and NG will flow to your West Coast.

The Gold Gamut is still in place though, should be played within 6 weeks...........Let's watch!

Belgian (04/24/01; 04:08:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 52442)
Gandalf the White (worker)
Yes Sir, the same amount of tired people overhere in Europ.On average, only 35% of actives are working. This number is still on the decline. Can't figure out how much of this 35% is "Productive". And I keep on wondering how we manage to keep up and even improve that standard of living.
This paradox (more wealth for less work) is only to be explained by the stealth DEBT proliferation.

How this happened is through a rather simple process :
The Individual has been completely DE-RESPONSIBILIZED in exchange for an illusionarry COLLECTIVE responsability.
The individual goes on claiming all rights possible, while all obligations are shifted to the collectivity. This process is in full unstoppable swing. Politically translated : socialists and liberals melted together into an ugly troop of spoiled adults with infantile appearances.

This debauchery will lead to the discovery of Gold by the Individual. The more we discover that official gold is being mismatched and treated with arrogant disdain...the sooner, more individuals will aquire a self-defense reflex and find its final way to Gold. "GOLD", because all other tangibles will be increasingly taxed by the hungry collectivity. I strongly suspect that such a cycle excists.
The US/Germany Gold-swap is evidence of the "lightness of being" of the official collectivity. They mis-manage the left-over fat of the rich meat-pots. Official Gold is the last value that they can use (give away) for extending the illusion.

Watch the USTB-30 rising : pivot=5,90% and trend-change=6,40%/6,5%.
Fibonacci applicated on the inverse SHS-pattern (sholder/head/sholder) of EURO/DOLLAR, suggest high probability of Euro-Dollar parity at yearend. My guess is POG=290$ (corresponding parity). I see that same SHS pattern in AU (?)

nickel62 (04/24/01; 03:50:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 52441)
Market Manipulation has been questioned by some....Here is a rare insight into the nature of modern markets....
Notice why Citicorp wants to offer back office clearing of retail stock trades for several brokers in the article from the Financial TImes quoted below:

Citigroup eyes retail investors
By Patrick Jenkins
Published: April 22 2001 19:25GMT | Last Updated: April 23 2001 13:38GMT

Citigroup has joined the growing number of big banks that want to process the share trades of private investors.

On Monday, the group launches Citiconnect, a back-office trading system for retail stockbrokers that will rival services launched last year by Goldman Sachs and Merrill Lynch.

Citiconnect will execute, clear and settle trades domestically and cross-border using the services of Citigroup companies - Salomon Smith Barney for execution and Citibank for clearing.

Analysts said the idea was unoriginal, but presented a credible challenge to existing services. "Citibank is one of the few players that the competition will be worried about," said Huw van Steenis, banking analyst at JP Morgan.

Most of the banks' retail business plans were conceived in the excitement of last year's first-quarter stock market boom, when technology stocks gripped the imagination of Europe's private investors and sent retail order flow up to two or three times previous levels.

Since last March, order flow has slowed significantly in line with market downturns.

Citigroup insisted that the decline in trading volume was "probably helpful" because it would allow the new service to bed down gently.

Vincent Barnouin, deputy head of European equities at Salomon Smith Barney, said: "There is no time pressure on us. Overall, our long-term business model is intact."

The group said that Citiconnect simply opened up an existing institutional trading platform to retail business. Investment was "virtually nil" and there had been no specific capital injected into the project.

<<Analysts said the great attraction for the big banks in harnessing retail order flow was the intelligence it enabled them to glean about all stock market activity, not just from traditional institutional clients, and the consequent power it gave them to influence pricing.>>

Mr Barnouin said the flexibility of the service would make it more attractive to retail stockbrokers than rivals' offerings.

Brokers would be able to mix and match Citiconnect execution and settlement with other back-office providers if necessary.

Citigroup will charge brokers on a per-transaction basis. Prices would be set "competitively" within the current charging range of E9-E15 (�5.50-�9).

Citiconnect already has three live clients, signed up during the pilot phase. A further 10 are close to sign-up, Citigroup said.

Leigh (04/24/01; 03:47:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 52440)
GATA Gets WorldNetDaily Headline!
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=22541
You guys! Check out today's article in WorldNetDaily entitled "Proof of Fed's Gold-Market Intervention?" !!

WorldNetDaily has, I believe, the highest readership of any internet newspaper. It is VERY popular.

Simply Me (04/24/01; 03:46:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 52439)
Welcome and Thanks
Welcome back Another and Trail Guide! And thanks for your time and attention to this forum. Your words are water in the desert and it's been too long between oasis.

Thanks to everyone else for posting the questions my understanding is too poor to come up with.
I read every word.
simply

Simply Me (04/24/01; 03:39:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 52438)
Much to think about concerning oil supplies and dollar use.
http://www.sanluisobispo.com/rc/business/docs/08298271.htm
Monday, April 23, 2001
"U.S., Mexico, Canada create energy working group"

By Doug Palmer
<snip>President George W. Bush told reporters after
meeting with Canadian Prime Minister Jean
Chretien and Mexican President Vicente Fox he
wanted the United States to turn to its two
neighbors for more of its energy needs.
<unsnip>
<snip>The three leaders met after the Summit of the
Americas, which brought together 34 countries from
North, South and Central American and the
Caribbean to discuss ways to boost trade,
prosperity and democracy in the region.
At a news conference to close the summit, Bush
said he wanted fewer restrictions on energy trade
throughout the Western Hemisphere, starting with
the United States and its two North American
neighbors.

``It is important for our hemisphere to not only trade
liberally but to move energy...as needed,'' Bush
said.

The newly-created North American Energy Working
Group will examine ways to boost the efficiency of
energy markets in the three countries, the three
leaders said.
The United States can do its part by building better
pipelines, allowing cross-border permitting ``and
welcoming supplies of natural gas regardless of the
country of origin,'' Bush said.
A draft Bush administration energy task force report
obtained by Reuters last week said the White
House would recommend overhauling cross-border
energy trade regulations to boost supplies for
power-strapped California.
In line with that, Bush said the United States wanted
to work with Mexico to develop electricity supplies
and was anxious to import more crude oil from
Canada, which is already the largest supplier to the
U.S. market.<unsnip>

Black Blade (04/24/01; 03:18:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 52437)
RE: SteveH

You would also find that if a juror or prospective juror were to bring up the subject of "Jury Nullification" during jury selection or during the trial, he/she would also be held in contempt. It's not just markets that are rigged. The judicial system is a farce as many already know. The stack is loaded against the citizen since the system should not fail. Therefore you have such laws as "asset forfeiture" laws for example. These came about because "suspects" with the means could hire attorneys that made prosecutors look like a gaggle of buffoons. This would not do, so legislators dreamed up "asset forfeiture" laws where property could be legally stolen by law enforcement. It should be noted that if prosecutors were so good they would be working in the private sector earning much more. The system is designed to be rigged. It is simply a case where the ruling class must win at all costs. Even if the cost is to deny justice and subvert the Constitution of the US. It should come as no surprise.

SteveH (04/24/01; 02:53:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 52436)
The Juror
Interesting repost.

FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE DATED APRIL 22, 2001
THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz
'For handing out constitutional propaganda'

A reporter for Colorado's Aspen Daily News coined an interesting
phrase
in a March 14 article, forwarded by the kind folks at the Jury Rights
Project (www.levellers.org/jrp.)

It seems a 43-year-old local ski instructor named Jerry Begly -- former
member of the Army Special Forces and a Second Amendment advocate -- had
received a summons to appear for jury duty at Colorado's Pitkin County
Courthouse March 9.

Mr. Begly reported as ordered, but was promptly dismissed from the jury
pool and ordered to appear five days later to "show cause" why he should
not be held in contempt of court, after he was spotted passing out
leaflets
to other prospective jurors in the hallway before jury selection started.

The pamphlet Mr. Begly was handing out was a widely circulated
palm-sized
booklet containing quotations from the founding fathers and such past U.S.
Supreme Court justices as Oliver Wendell Holmes and Samuel Chase, on the
subject of jury powers.

This "Citizens' Rulebook" also contained "unattributed quotes, such as
'The only power the judge has over the jury is their Ignorance!' and 'One
juror can stop tyranny with a "Not guilty vote!" ' " reported Aspen Daily
News Staff Writer Rick Carroll.

The ski instructor, who told the Daily News he's for "far less
government," complained his free speech rights had thus been infringed.

The follow-up story came on March 14, under the headline: "Judge drops
charges in jury leaflet case." Summarizing what had gone on to date,
reporter Carroll told his readers Mr. Begly had been "dismissed from jury
duty last week for handing out constitutional propaganda to juror
candidates."

Isn't that a delightful phrase: "constitutional propaganda"? One
imagines
some basement room full of clattering old mimeograph machines, where a
sneering, modern-day Joseph Goebbels -- or should that be Tom Paine? --
holds court, masterminding a sinister scheme to convince the American
people they're actually supposed to be living under a form of government
where the judges, bureaucrats and other functionaries have powers sharply
limited to those specifically listed, while the people at large --
including citizens called to sit on juries -- have the freedom to say or
do
anything they please, so long as it's not specifically (start ital)banned
(end ital) by written law.

Talk about a subversive notion!

As it turned out, rather than grant Mr. Begly the public forum he was so
anxious to exploit, local Judge Erin Fernandez-Ely found discretion to be
the better part of valor, ruling, "In the interest of judicial economy,
the
hearing is vacated and the juror discharged from any obligation with
respect to this case and this Court." Case dismissed.

"A juror is required to follow the law as instructed by the Court,"
Judge
Fernandez-Ely went on to assert, having safely buffered herself from
having
to confront the very citations from our founding fathers which refute that
erroneous doctrine.

It was in Colorado, of course, where the now famous case of obstinate
juror Laura Kriho unfolded a few years back. After the suburban Denver
jury
on which she was serving had withdrawn to the jury room, Ms. Kriho had the
nerve to violate the judge's "orders," discussing the sentence a young
woman might receive if convicted on a minor drug charge, and also
questioning the reasonableness of such drug laws.

A fellow juror snitched on Ms. Kriho.

In that 1996 case, District Court Judge Kenneth Barnhill dismissed the
jury and declared a mistrial (though Ms. Kriho had been given no chance to
try to win over other jurors to her perfectly reasonable point of view.)
Laura Kriho was put on trial for contempt of court -- apparently for
failing to leap to her feet during jury selection and announce she opposed
the Drug War (though it turned out no one had specifically asked her about
that.)

Denied the jury trial she's guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution, Ms.
Kriho was convicted by one of Judge Barnhill's brethren of the Gilpin
County bench, but that verdict was finally dismissed on appeal last year.

The D.C. Court of Appeals held in the 1972 Vietnam draft case U.S. vs.
Dougherty that "The pages of history shine on instances of the jury's
exercise of its prerogative to disregard uncontradicted evidence and
instructions from the judge. Most often commended are the 18th century
acquittal of John Peter Zenger on charges of seditious libel [the case
that
gave Americans our freedom of the press] and the 19th century acquittals
in
prosecutions under the fugitive slave laws."

The problem comes when we're asked "What specific statute gives juries
the right to disobey the judge's orders and acquit just because they think
the law is bad, or has been misapplied?"

There is no such law, of course. Neither can you find a law that says
you
have a right to fly a kite, or walk your dog. The problem here is the very
notion that there must be a law to (start ital)allow(end ital) us to do
something, when in a free nation we should be taught from childhood a
different paradigm, a different "default setting" -- that we citizens are
free to do anything not specifically (start ital)prohibited(end ital) (and
that the government is further sharply limited in the range of things they
can even seek to regulate or ban.)

No law allows the government to appeal or overturn a jury acquittal, nor
for any juror to be questioned by authorities, or charged or punished in
any way for voting to acquit, even if the judge sits there in all his
solemn majesty and says: "This jury is instructed to convict: I am giving
you no choice."

It's all one big bluff. If you ever sit on a jury deciding the fate of a
fellow citizen who you believe is being railroaded for nothing but
angering
a bunch of smug bureaucrats -- that he or she has never really harmed
anyone -- try it. Acquit on all charges. You can, you know.

For further information on the Fully-Informed Jury movement, check out
Web site www.fija.org.

Black Blade (04/24/01; 02:50:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 52435)
Lease Rates Up Nicely
http://www.kitco.com/market/LFrate.html
Gold lease rates just bounced higher and gold edges into positive territory. Could get interesting by NY open.

Parsifal (04/24/01; 01:13:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 52434)
Comments/Questions on Latest Trail Hike
http://www.usagold.com/goldTrail/default.html

Tail Guide:
The ECB is using the current leveraged paper gold market as a way to force the dollar faction to break itself. Their marking gold to market is a hangman's roap, just waiting for the prisoner to climb the stairs. When the US "WALKS" FROM HONORING CUSTODIAL GOLD, once again like in 1971, that will be the end! The system wide banks of the ECB will allow the dollar gold market to soar. Creating a wealth reserve not unlike their holdings of other currencies, only far more true to human perceptions. As the dollar crashes on foreign exchange markets, these CB dollar holdings will be just cast down, as Another said. No need to spend them.

Me:
And to the question as to why "the end" comes this time, and did not come in 1971, the answer is the euro. The euro exists now and provides an alternative currency that did not exist as an escape route before. The answer is reasonable.

Trail Guide:
I suspect the gold in West Point was reclassified in a show of good faith to those that own some international gold paper. I'm talking about people who's reasonably priced product you cannot live without.

Me: Now who would that be? Saudis?

Trail Guide:
While the ESF has the right to trade currency swaps against other's gold (and they do do this). Our gold has yet to be possessed by others.

Me: POSSESSION. Very important, no? Got gold?

Trail Guide:
Just as in 1971, when many dollar holders thought US gold was "in custody" for them, so to does the current world dollar gold markets.

Me:
If the U.S. held gold in custody for others, and then reneged on the custodial arrangement and denied the rightful claims others had on that gold, that would be outright fraud, theft, no? I expect that theft of gold has been going on since forever.

Trail Guide:
We maintain that most of the leverage created in this arena has been done with the gold of private Western owners. Modern GoldBug owners that once held physical gold but now seek gold leverage and gold industry investment instead of gold wealth.

Me: Would be interesting to learn how the gold is enticed from its owners. Trail Guide? How is that done?

Trail Guide:
There is no logic in that the Bundesbank would risk it's gold. They were major supports of the Washington Agreement.

Me:
Why do any of the EU CBs lend any of their gold at all? If it is so valuable, why lend it a such low rates (into certain default?) and why are they so anxious to sell it? It seems the sales quotas were met very quickly.

Trail Guide:
Eventually, the US will walk right up to the gold window with the intentions of selling, only to fall away as they stair at a mountain of foreign CB dollars.

Me:
I don't understand this part. Would that be the U.S. govt. doing the selling? What would the U.S. be selling, physical gold or paper gold? And what would the U.S. be trading for, U.S. dollars or something else? And what do you mean by "fall away?" Do you mean that the U.S. would not be willing/able to conduct the transaction? Please explain.

Parsifal

Black Blade (04/24/01; 01:05:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 52433)
Is There an Energy Crisis? - A lot of Denial and Cover-Up
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/abc/20010423/bs/energycrisis_010423_1.html

Snippit:

From all the talk about an energy crisis, you'd think it's time to start hoarding cans of gas and candles. But is there really a crisis? The answer from experts is pretty much a flat "N-O."

Black Blade: They conveniently leave out expert opinion and rely on consumer advocate rhetoric. I guess that prices are high for no reason.

Snippit:

Coming from such high sources, "crisis" talk represents strong language indeed, evoking images of the country's last dire energy shortage, in the 1970s. Then, the oil embargo by the Organization of the petroleum Exporting Countries led to seemingly endless lines for motorists at the gasoline pump, and contributed to the recession and rampant inflation that plagued the decade.

Black Blade: In 1973, there was a plethora of analysts and experts that said that there was no energy crisis. Hmmm� Maybe history should be our teacher.

Snippit:

"We have no crisis," says John Lichtblau, president of the Petroleum Industry Research Foundation, a non-profit group in New York. "There is an energy crisis in the West Coast, but that's entirely a domestic crisis. In fact it's a regional crisis, and it has nothing to do with the petroleum markets."

Black Blade: Let's see here - energy crisis in California that's affecting all the western grid, highly likely power crisis in New York and New England overall, and possible $3.00/gallon gasoline in the midwest. Hmmm� Add enough regions together and I guess it becomes a national crisis. Looks like this rocket scientist - Mr. Lichtblau doesn't see the big picture.

Snippit:

And the country does not use oil as an across-the-board source of energy the way it used to. Oil has been replaced as a source of electric power and is used less in manufacturing than it was in the past. Currently, about 50 percent of electric power plants are fired using coal, with about 30 percent using natural gas and 20 percent relying on nuclear power.

Black Blade: Let's see: 1) coal plants run until their carbon credits are used up each year and then they shutdown unless they purchase more credits from other coal plants. Also, no new coal fired plants are being built. 2) Virtually all new power plants are natural gas fired and there is declining NG production and record low storage levels. And; 3) No new nuclear power plants have been built in over a quarter century.

Elwood (04/24/01; 00:48:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 52432)
Trail Guide

You will forgive me if I don't give up on Mises and Rothbard just yet? (smile) As to your words, I will consider them��.

If Arab oil agree there be fiat, then the world will have fiat, since Arab has oil to destroy fiat and other weapon to destroy oil?

Elwood

Black Blade (04/24/01; 00:40:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 52431)
Feds May Restrict Energy Prices
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010423/bs/power_prices_1.html

Snippit:

WASHINGTON (AP) - Federal energy regulators are reviewing a proposal to restrict wholesale electricity prices in California during the severe power shortages expected this summer. The commission has faced growing political pressure to find new ways to address allegations of price gouging in the Western power markets, where wholesale costs have been ten times what they were a year ago, and likely will go higher in the coming months.

Black Blade: Restrict prices and then this will also mean that producers will restrict production and sales to Kalifornia. Sounds like a plan.

Black Blade (04/24/01; 00:30:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 52430)
New Power Plants Raise Concerns
http://biz.yahoo.com/apf/010424/power_natural_gas.html

Snippit:

LOS ANGELES (AP) -- As California tries to build its way out of its energy crisis, the state is deepening its dependence on natural gas, a fuel source that is increasingly expensive and scarce. That reliance could keep costs of wholesale power high for the state and its utilities even when California eventually generates enough electricity to keep the lights on. As millions of California ratepayers know from their rising utility bills, the price of natural gas has skyrocketed since last winter. Much of the price hike is due to increasing demand nationwide combined with a lack of pipelines -- or access to pipelines � in California, which imports most of the natural gas used to run its power plants.

Black Blade: These rocket scientists are just beginning to see the big picture. Keep building NG-fired power plants and then worry about the NG. Smooth move. They had better build a few pipelines as well since they won't drill for hydrocarbons. Kommissar Davis and his Komrades got themselves in a real pickle. "�and they danced, sang, and played all summer�" This summer should get "interesting."

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