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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 11/24/2000
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(Yesterday's Discussion.)

Galearis (11/24/2000; 21:39:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 42149)
@ all, a good read
http://www.plata.com.mx/plata/worldres.htm
I could not get the graph to download so I posted the link for others to try. Nevertheless, a good read about the rationale behind the Mexican return to silver coinage. I post the article for its quality and brevity:
*********snip********


February 10, 1999

¿Why are the americans smiling?

By Hugo Salinas Price

Spanish version

The Americans are delighted with their economy; they congratulate themselves on their prosperity, and offer their economic success to the world as an example. For them, the rest of the world (except for Europe perhaps, Great Britain and other anglo-saxon countries) simply does not know how to manage things.

The graph (at the end of article), explains why they are so satisfied with their economy.

In 1948, the total amount of dollars held by Central Banks around the world amounted to some $15 billion dollars – the dollar reserves of those banks. The total of gold, valued at $35 dollars an ounce, also in Central Bank reserves, amounted to some $34 billion dollars. In physical terms, the gold weighed 970 million ounces. The value of gold in the reserves of the Central Banks of the world, the U.S. included, amounted to over twice the value of the dollar reserves.

For twenty years, up to 1968, the increase in the amount of dollars in the hands of Central Banks of the world was quite restrained, although constant. The United States were careful to restrain their monetary and credit expansion, because the dollars held by foreign Central Banks were redeemable in gold. During those years, however, the U.S. were steadily losing gold reserves to those Banks, as they satisfied the demands for redemption of their dollar I.O.U.'s. (dollar bills).

In the years leading up to 1968, General de Gaulle in France had been firm about the Bank of France's policy of dollar redemption for gold. In the Spring of 1968, the good General found himself facing a near revolution, and was almost overthrown. World leaders noted the curious coincidence of events.

The flight of gold from the U.S. persisted, notwithstanding arrangements between the more developed countries, not to demand gold for dollar redemption among themselves.

Finally, on August 15th, 1971, President Nixon threw in the towel, and simply ceased redeeming dollars with gold, at any price. In 1944, the Bretton Woods monetary arrangement had stipulated that dollars would serve as Central Bank reserves as good as gold, because all dollars would be redeemed for gold on demand at the rate of $35 dollars per ounce. Nixon killed the Bretton Woods agreement.

There was no new international agreement. The Central Banks of the world simply went on receiving dollars for their reserves, without any possibility of redeeming them for gold. World Central Bank reserves, as far as dollars were concerned, became simply papers.

As the graph shows, once the U.S. were freed of the commitment to redeem dollars, they embarked on an unrestricted credit expansion. Dollars in the hands of foreign Central Banks were like checks that are never cashed. A lovely arrangement, for the United States.

From 1971 to 1997, the U.S. provided reserves to foreign Central Banks, in an amount in excess of $1.1 trillion dollars (that is, one million and one hundred thousand millions of dollars) of green paper dollars, created out of nothing by their monetary and financial system. (The amount is approximate, but the approximation is sufficient to show the colossal increase).

On the other hand, the rest of the world had to buy these dollar reserves, by exporting products to the U.S. From the U.S. to the rest of the world: papers. From the rest of the world to the U.S.: merchandise, companies, banks, properties and equity. Things of value, in other words.

The effect on the United States has been to provide them with a bonanza, a bonanza available to anyone who might have a limitless credit card, whose balance it is unnecessary to pay, and which is forever going up.

This is the postwar bonanza for the U.S., which Americans tend to think is due to their superior productive and organizational ability. Actually, it is the collection of tribute from the world, on a scale which makes the Roman Empire pale by comparison. The Americans have had an imperial "bread and circuses" at the expense of the rest of the world. No wonder they are smiling!

Their apparent success allows them to preach to the rest of the world on the need for banking transparency, on the need for more open banking systems, on the need for the elimination of corruption and cronyism from the financial systems of the rest of the world. They proclaim the need for adapting to globalization, which favors the U.S. because it allows the Americans to buy up the world with their paper dollars. For the same reason they proclaim the need for privatizations, which are indeed desirable, if privatization did not imply that Americans can buy, not with goods, but with papers, anything they desire, especially strategic resources such as, for example in the case of Mexico and Brazil, "Pemex" and "Petrobras".

Unlimited imports of merchandise – the credit card has no limit – allow the U.S. to continue the credit expansion, for cheap imports keep prices under control. The U.S. has transferred its inflation, to the rest of the world, exporting it in the form of dollar reserves in Central Banks around the world.

When dollars arrive in foreign countries, the local Central Bank purchases the dollars in exchange for the local currency. More reserves equals more local currency. More currency means prices rise; as prices rise, cheap exports to the U.S. decline. The remedy: devaluation. Other countries must devalue their currencies in order to have the privilege of receiving papers from the U.S. Devaluation destroys local financial and productive systems, because in order to persuade local savers from exchanging their local currencies for dollars, interest rates, for instance in Mexican pesos, are raised. Mexico and Brazil are classic cases.

It is a curious fact that not one Nobel prize winner has pointed out these extraordinary circumstances. The reason must be, that dollar reserves are such a gigantic tribute operation, that it is not convenient to point out these things.

Privatization, opening to U.S. investment, globalization, transparency, and the struggle against corruption, are words which hide the purpose: to concentrate unlimited power, by using irredeemable dollars to buy up the world.

The graph shows that gold in world Central Banks has for all practical purposes not increased in 50 years: there is only 12.3% more gold in their vaults, in ounces, than there was in 1948.

From the U.S., we cannot expect any advice whatsoever, that goes against U.S. interests. It is we – Mexico specifically - who must determine what our interests are; protecting them is our affair. The U.S. will never tell us that our situation, worse day by day, is the consequence of the monetary system which the U.S. controls. Brazil, the most recent victim. Ecuador, another. Argentina is stumbling. Hong Kong and China will devalue sooner or later. Chavez in Venezuela will fail to turn his country around. We are all in the same dollar reserve boat. For Mexico, dollarization, currently being suggested by some American politicians and seconded by myopic Mexican businessmen, is surrender to the U.S.

Mexico must think fast. We must reform our monetary and financial system, and base it upon a currency with a real value, which will not depend on the dollar reserve system which guarantees instability. Only a silver currency can meet that vital requirement.



Journeyman (11/24/2000; 19:49:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 42148)
Thanx @beesting

Thanx Sir beesting!!

Regards, j.


beesting (11/24/2000; 19:28:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 42147)
Try this URL for COMEX
http://www.crbindex.com/conspecs/nymex/contractsd.htm#Gold Futures
beesting

beesting (11/24/2000; 18:54:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 42146)
Hi Sir Journeyman.
http://www.cme.com/market/currency/index.html
The above link was the agency that issued the press release that I posted earlier today. They are located in Chicago. the exchange is called; Chicago Mercantile Exchange or CME.

After chasing my tail quite a while here on the PC I could only come up with the below URL which is the URL for the New York Mercantile Exchange(COMEX) which trades in Gold. It's my understanding that this is the exchange that sets the daily minute by minute prices on Gold, that everyone watches so close-ly.

http://www.crbindex.com/conspecs/nymex/contractsd.htm#Gold Futures

I also had another site that unfortunatly I lost the URL on, that listed the commodities by catagory;
Paper money(world currencies) futures was a seperate catagory.
Gold futures was listed under the metals catagory which also listed copper, Silver, Aluminum, zinc, etc. etc.

I don't think I answered your question too well, but I hope this helps a little....beesting.

turkey hunter (11/24/2000; 18:39:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 42145)
The Case for Gold, by Ron Paul & Lewis Lehrman
I've been reading this book by Ron Paul and Lewis Lehrman. As a new gold bug I find the history of gold in this country interesting. I thought I would post some paragraphs from the book since there might be new gold bugs who haven't read the book yet.

The International Crisis : 1931

The stock market collapse in late 1929 was only a harbinger of things to come. It was not until 1931 that the international bank collapses caused abandonment of gold. The first to go was Austria.

Kredit-Anstalt, Austria's largest bank, supported by the Austrian government, had for years been making bad loans on a meager reserve base. Austria had been part of the 'sterling bloc" buttressed by Britain-a development resented by France, heavy with gold chains on Britain. The formation of an Austrian customs union with Germany in late March 1931 was feared by France, who saw it as a step to political union. The French central bank now insisted upon immediate repayment of her short term loans debts from Austria and Germany. Austrian banks clearly could not meet their liabilities, and in late May, Kredit Anstalt went bankrupt, taking Austria off the gold standard. A run on German banks now started. That country had been quickly affected by the tightened American credit conditions in mid 1928 and was quite vulnerable. Runs continued, and even though Pres. Hoover declared on June 20th a moratorium on German debt, France was not immediately inclined to go along. She delayed too long; and on July 15 Germany declared national bankruptcy by going off the gold standard.

It must be said that both these nations fought desperately to maintain gold redemption, and when the end came, each regarded the act with SHAME. Not so with Britain. The country that had caused others to inflate for her and did more than any other to bring on the crisis went off the gold standand with out a fight.

As runs on British gold increased through the summer, Britain refused to defend the pound by raising interest rates. Instead, as gold flowed out of the banks, the Bank of England created new money to replenish the bank's reserves. The Bank of France cooperated loyally and didn't present any claims. The French bank held sterling claims worth fully seven times its capital, and thus feared for a Britain off the gold standard. Indeed, France joined American in offering massive loans to Britain. But the bank of England didn't even take full advantage of these credit lines, and two days after assuring the Netherlands Bank (with all its capital in sterling) that England would not go off the gold standard, that is exactly what happened. The announcement was made on Sept. 20. 1931 thus capping 17 years of gradual monetary disintegration.

Britain had for centuries been the world's preimier financial power, so that announcement left the world stunned. Moreover, other governments had been deliberately deceived. The capital of the central banks of France and Holland had been made worthless in one day. Governments could no longer trust each other's financial promises, and the stage was set for perhaps the most treacherous decade in international economic relations, a decade from which we have not yet recovered. As Chase economist and contemporary eyewitness Benjamin Anderson recalled, "An immense world asset was destroyed when the Bank of England and the British government broke faith with the world. Years later after we in the United States had also broken faith with the world, the head of the national bank of one of the Scandinavian countries said,'I have lost money in sterling. I have lost money in dollars. I have never lost money by holding gold.'"


Turkey Hunters comments. I guess what I find interesting about this section is how Britain went off the gold standard with out a fight. The next section of the book deals with American going off the gold standard and how we talked the world into holding $'s as a reserve thus starting the world on a wild roller coaster of economic uncertainty. Could it be that the Nations of the world are tired of this roller coaster ride and want a monetary system that in more reliable, thus all the articles I've have read of lately about gold coins and silver coins being used as money?

Turkey Hunter


TheStranger (11/24/2000; 17:17:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 42144)
Reminder
Planning to take the guided tour of the world's largest gold stash at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York? Be sure to arrange for tickets in advance by calling the Bank's Public Information line at 212-720-6130.



Journeyman (11/24/2000; 15:44:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 42143)
Reference or link -- a plea for help! @beesting, ALL

Sir beesting,

Thanks for opening my eyes wide! I was only subliminally aware gold wasn't traded as currency on the exchanges, or rather as your comment hi-lited, I'd never thought about it. I know the IMF regs. preclude the use of gold as money, and it makes sense that somehow TPTB would get this written into the private contracts of exchanges that might be tempted to list gold as currency.

Do you have any link to a site -- or a reference -- that I could show to a skeptic that they would find hard to dismiss?

The approach might be something like, "Isn't it odd, since noone takes gold seriously as money anymore, and gold is only a commodity, that they found it necessary to exclude gold, by regulation, from being traded as money anyway -- sort of like keeping Nader out of viewing the debates, even from the audience?"

Sorry to trouble over the holidays, but would greatly appreciate any lead you might be able to send my way!!

Regards, J.


CoBra(too) (11/24/2000; 15:08:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 42142)
As Florida determines US Politics- Nice stands for EU Reforms?
The EU-Summit early Dec. in Nice will mark the all important "reform of instititutions" and will signal some compromise between the big and small and the potential newcomers. It will also mark the watershed of political decsions in the EU - which will be majority rule for certain
deisions of major importance, which again will re-enforce the competence of the Union.
At the same time, as the EU is nearing a sort of constitution for a enlarged Europe, the US is entangled in a political debate to count -, recount and discount their formerly democratic -one person - one vote - system, and as Clinton has said: " The public's verdict counts" - and since we don't exactly know what the verdict is, we count again. And again until we go the courts, after all who else should settle a class action of 50% of American's vs the other 50%? - The legitimacy of any (of the two) presidents will always be at odds - and the typical lame duck presidency between the election and inauguration may last
for 4 further years.

In any case, this comes as a severe blow to the credibility of US politics internally - and even a more severe
(in-) credulity factor elsewhere.

The EU Summit in Nice and the Floridian recounts of ballots, are they pregnant, dimpled, pimpled or just pampered, could lastly have some relevance to the ultimate relation of the "value" between the US$ vs the euro, while the concrete causes of the ongoing disequilibrium between the two could ameliorate or reverse.
Some hard facts:
(Negative)
* The relative superior growth of US GDP vs EU
* Economic and political structures of EU need reform
* New Curency without a real state, nor constitution
* The seemingly successful launch of the euro currency
in terms of capital market and export efficiency has run
its course and is having negative effects on valuation (-id
est growing $-demand!)

As this scenario is about to reverse (Positive):
* Any slow-down in ecomic activity - be it soft or hard
landing - will undermine the strong, save haven $-myth.
* The exploding current- and trade balance deficit (reaching 2/3 of global trade surplus) will be detrimental
to the $'s value.
* The attractivity to invest - directly or otherwise - in the US
will lose relative to its disequilibrium of its currency.
* Structural political and economic changes in the EU, will furhter attract investment into this area.
* And finally the float of the real (hard coins and bills) in a yeat will enhance its use and credibility.

As Luxembourg's J-C. Juncker expressed it, Europe, aware of its political and economical structural shortcomings, will have to steer towards a common goal, (which, as I may add has been singularily achieved over the last 50 y's, considering the diverse interests of so many nationalities - even, if I've been shocked by the idiotic exclusion of Austria, lately - which may have been a catalyst to more
objectivism - big vs smll?).

As the US will have difficulty in keeping afloat the myth of the $ (Big Float), the euro will eventually be par to this myth. And as Klaus Liebscher (Gov. of Austr. National Bank) recently said, quote: " If we consider historical miscalculations of currencies in relation to real global economic competition and the natural, though strategic response from Europe (in this case) - of course influenced by psychological escapades - has everything to do with priice - though NOTHING with value (courtesy of- Oscar Wilde) ...

A'm Bushed and Go-re PM's more - do too - cb2




beesting (11/24/2000; 14:29:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 42141)
The Dark Dirty Secret Governments Don't Want Anyone to Know!
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/001124/n24442585.html
An excerpt from above news release, please go to bottom of post to see the Secret. This post may be seen as an addition to Sir Journeymans post.

[Snip]
<<December euros quietly chopped sideways to lower during the U.S. pit session after coming down from steep overall highs posted overnight. The contract touched a low of $0.83900 an hour before the abbreviated close of open outcry.
The December pound faltered on Friday as traders thought interest rates in Britain may have reached their pinnacle, one analyst said. Doumos predicted the contract would find support at the $1.3900 level.
Canadian dollar futures rose out of Friday's overall morass on last-minute position squaring ahead of the Canadian election on November 27, one broker said. Strong, lasting support for the Canadian currency was not evident, however, one trader said.
December yen settled off $0.000092 at $0.009012, euros dipped 0.00460 to $0.84100, Swiss francs fell $0.0018 to $0.5553, sterling was off $0.0106 at $1.4006, Australian dollars dropped $0.0036 to $0.5236, Mexican pesos fell $0.000100 to $0.105625 and Canadian dollars rose $0.0040 to $0.6506.>>[Unsnip]

The Dark secret:
Gold(REAL MONEY)is NOT allowed to trade on the currencies futures exchanges,(Chicago Mercantile Exchange) instead it's traded on the "commodities" exchanges, as an industrial metal! Please think about this and Greshems Law.....beesting.


miner49er (11/24/2000; 14:15:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 42140)
JavaMan - #42096, Election / Clinton, etc.
JavaMan - First my sincerest condolences to you and your family. It is always rough when you have tragic moments right at holidays. The memory of such somehow remains more acute because of it.

I am coming out of lurkenation for a moment (actually have not even been lurking much of late due to my other life as a person with a real name and Soc. Sec. No.).

Am reposting your reply to me from a few weeks back, when you hinted, that he (WJClinton) might just possibly not even depart the game.

I am rather convinced that this is genuinely a possibility. And that, it is as you say, a much bigger game, with bigger stakes involved...

I also think the fun and games have only started. Wait until the "salt the earth" destruction of Bush prone Electors begins...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#38472 - 10/7/00 Miner49er, end game indeed...or just a gambit?

A fine analogy, to be sure, but what if the time clock that the players punch is not representative of the time Clinton is in office but, rather, the time he has as a player in general? If this is the case, then all which is going on now is just a gambit in a bigger game.

You said "As I profiled in an earlier post, Clinton is intelligent and ruthless, and above all he hates losing. Bill Clinton is out for Bill Clinton. As such, where the President should view the game board and see the people to be guarded as the King, and our resources, treasures, and liberties treated as our second row pieces, all have instead become pawns, and the man playing the game has vested himself as King."

You left out American citizens...they, too, would be considered as pawns.

Does this sound like someone who would be content to resign his position "at the board" to another telling himself that he has played the game well only to fade away into obscurity? I say, not if he is, in fact, who you profile.

You also said "I mentioned also that one of the strategems he uses is surprise, as manifest in his unscrupulous ruthlessness. He allows himself to be capable of anything, and hopefully catches his opponents off-guard as they say, "Surely he wouldn't do THAT...""

This thought may turn out to have far-reaching implications as the "pawns" in this country who expect/hope for him to go away quietly will assume that "Surely he wouldn't do THAT..."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am going to post below some portions of an email correspondence I have been having with an acquaintance from the past couple of weeks, they seem to address a couple of the things you mention in your T-Day post, and the above repost. I wonder what your commentary, or anyone's might be about these matters.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11/15/00

"I believe this [Florida, et al.] will result in an obvious and absolute breach of law and the people's will, and that we will see Gore as President (if you-know-who actually decides to vacate his cube), and with it, as I mentioned, the precedent for never-ending events of this kind, until we become recognized as little different from any tin-horn dictatorship. We will have all the fanfare of being a democratic peoples with democratic processes, but there will be nothing but blatant, overt intimidation, shakedowns, and fraud beneath the smiley-face facade (as opposed to the less obvious intimidation, shakedowns, and fraud that we have been treated to up until now). If Gore and the Democrats can't somehow get the count cooked just right, they will drag this thing on into eternity.

In either case, this is only the beginning of what will become yawningly normal election technique. And the people will grow so weary of it, but instead of fighting to rid the cancer from their midst, they will acquiesce in defeated resignation, and just say 'whatever.' This of course is exactly what these people want since it lets them do what they want under the numbing cover of indifference. I stand by my assertion that this is just another sign of very bad times ahead."

11/17/00

"My guess is... this will ultimately be decided by some World Court presided over by the U.N."

11/21/00

"I believe there is more to this than simply "boys will be boys," Tammany Hall style power-mongering."

[...]

"This behavior is so bizarre as to make me state as I did above. There is more to this than meets the eye. This of course is no great revelation. There is so much more that happens that is not available to the public, naturally, that it is almost fair to say that the public knows and sees nothing of what goes on. We only see edited glimpses by whatever source reports them, the ones we like, and the ones we don't. And they themselves are only one or two steps closer to the action as it is.

Something is being hidden. My guess is that it has to do with the financial markets. It is also far bigger than simply our government, and a squabble between Dems and Reps.

I stand by what I said earlier. This could ultimately be decided by an international court, or some arm of the United Nations.

I am well aware that this is 'impossible' because of legal structures, and sovereignty issues. Yet I think at this point, it is safe to say that the minority of voices who attempt to contest any such activity is sufficiently small and powerless, that law is capable of being decreed by fiat at any level."

11/22/00 [responding to the effectiveness of a Republican Congress in 2001 (what's left of it anyway)]

"One lingering advantage the Dems have is access to copies of the FileGate FBI files that you know have been prudently tucked away. If you will note when the Republican boldness, that characterized their out-of-the-block sprint in 95, ended, it was not because of gridlock on the Budget, it really began with the files.

Not that all these guys have skeletons in their closets, but everyone who ever holds a responsible position has had tough decisions to make. Decisions that may be perfectly right, and proper, but tough. And the circumstances surrounding these decisions are complex. With access to these files, which have all this kind of information, the Dems can go find aggrieved parties to these tough decisions, find (easily done) some member of the Press who will be glad to get the lead, and spin it to their liking. Since this poor Congressperson knows that to defend himself requires the detailing of both complex, and sometimes private details, he can't possibly fit this cleanly into a sound bite of time, which is all he will have, so his courage and conviction to fight for his convictions and those of his constituents is deflated. He knows they probably have access to his files, and can cause him and his family untold grief. Even if no one ever looked at the files, just the fear of "might have" keeps a lid on things. This was the greatest sinister coup of the entire Clinton Administration."

11/22/00 [responding to query whether I think Bush is a 'savior' of some sort]

"In a President, I don't think we should be looking for the perfect man who will either hold all of our beliefs and tenets, or someone who is going to save the world. We should look for someone who will uphold most effectively the broad-based world view we maintain. If my world view sees individual freedom with a minimum of government interference as paramount, and fairness under a system where law is upheld with consistency, I should seek a party and candidate that convinces me they will work toward this end. If my desire is for government to seek solutions for the diverse ills and issues of our lives, and believe lots of regulation, and standardization is the best way to preserve order and promote advancement to our culture, then I should vote for someone who holds these principles as well."

11/22/00 (repost of something I put out at Le Metropole)

A Gore administration will continue the same wink-wink policies of its predecessor. For this reason, I maintain that global
big money is pushing hard for a Gore presidency. For this reason, the Republicans stand little hope of winning this. I
assert that this ridiculous travesty of our political system could also become a ridiculous travesty to our sovereignty.

What if this wrangling continues indefinitely? And with the arsenal of weapons Gore is willing to use, it might. And if, as I
maintain, big global money is betting on a Gore outcome, then it is not too far of a stretch for me to see the U.N.
potentially get involved. They stick their nose into every other banana republic's election business.

What would catalyze this? A meltdown in the financial markets.

Would this be the result of perceived instability in our country? No. It will probably be set off by a fuel crisis.

Will it be portrayed as the result of our election issues? Yes, of course. And as such, in order to preserve stability in the
world financial markets, the U.N. will make overtures that they perhaps become the final arbiter here. Or at least that
we accept their guidelines for conducting an election.

Since this will happen only when all hell is breaking loose in the markets and our economy, we may well take the bait.

Since we as a people are so poorly educated in matters of law, civics, government, logic, and philosophy (among all the
other things we are poorly educated in), we fail to grasp each of these actions for what it is, and end up arguing the
minutiae of ancillary details, thus legitimizing the premise.

The rule of law has been under assault in this country for decades, and each passing day, and each passing court case
further undermines it. Instead of people being in a pikes and staves furor, they are energized about "conservative" or
"liberal" slants on whatever new paradigm was just created out of thin air, thus accepting the judicial decree du jour as
legitimate.

It is under such a seduction that we will accept U.N. or some other international body's interference in our sovereignty.
And it may well happen at this time.

A plausible scenario: It will be said that because the U.S Presidential elections have produced such upheaval, and
uncertainty, the democratic countries of this world have been forced to reevaluate traditional election practices, and
have found them obsolete and in need of reinterpretation, or comprehensive reconstruction.

The level-headed, reasonable heads will expound the sobriety of developing some sort of, say, international election
template that must be followed in order to have international recognition of a country's elected officials. In outrage we
will declare this unreasonable, and after volleying back and forth, the discussion will begin to center around the
"mandatory" nature of such a proposal. The "conservative" element will state that such a template should not be
mandatory. The "liberal" element will suggest that the only way to ensure compliance, and standardization is through
mandatory deployment.

The whole premise itself should be portrayed for the illegal intrusion upon national sovereignty that it is. Instead, the
premise will become assumed de facto by arguing the details, and our national rights will be that much more eroded.

I hope I am wrong on all of this and that this is all an aberration in our history, forgotten as easily as Super Bowl
winners.

Unfortunately, with a country that is so much concerned with Super Bowl winners, and other common culture trivia, it is
no surprise to me that we should soon lose our precious liberty.


miner49er






Journeyman (11/24/2000; 12:51:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 42139)
Dollar tyranny & BIG Float from the other side @ALL
http://www.plata.com.mx/plata/salinas9.htm

EXCELLENT perspectives piece! See what BIG Float does to others
and why if the world has a lick of sense, we'll return to free-
market money!!

========
Hugo Salinas Price

The spectres of Bretton Woods

The fascinating articles which have appeared in the last few
months in the financial newspapers, dealing with the crises in
Southeast Asia, Korea and Japan, provoke a suspicion that the
debacle we are witnessing is nothing less than a long-run
consequence of the Bretton Woods agreements of 1944, which were
drawn up, essentially, by two men: John Maynard Keynes and Harry
Dexter White. Out of their two minds was hatched our present
world, in which the U.S. Dollar is the primary reserve currency
for all Central Banks.

Consider the following line of reasoning:

No currency in the world has intrinsic value; all currencies,
including the U.S. Dollar, are based exclusively on confidence.
Alan Greenspan admitted as much, in his address a few months ago
in Louvain, Belgium. The precarious stability of all currencies
outside the U.S. depends on the amount of U.S. Dollar reserves
owned by the corresponding issuing Central Banks.

No Central Bank can accumulate a growing stock of U.S. Dollar
reserves, if its country does not export more than it imports.
What we have is, in effect, a neo-mercantilism based on
conservation of U.S. Dollars. As soon as imports begin to catch
up with exports, warning bells go off. What can be done? State-
owned enterprises can be privatized, so that they can be sold off
to foreigners. This brings in Dollars, but, of course, on a one-
time basis. Another recourse is to relax laws restricting foreign
ownership of enterprises, especially banks, so that foreigners
can bring in fresh Dollars as they take over activities formerly
in the hands of local people. Finally, incentives can be created
to attract capital to invest in new productive entreprises and
bring in much needed Dollars.

Nevertheless, without a surplus of exports over imports, all
other measures are merely palliatives. Thus, the world over,
national economies have been oriented to exports - always in
exchange for Dollars - as the mainstay for the respective
national currencies and banking systems.

As soon as exports of any one country seem to fade, the
speculative sharks begin to circle. The currency is deemed
"overvalued". A devaluation is at hand. The Central Bank can cast
away all its accumulated Dollars in defense of its currency, but
in vain. The speculators are stronger than any Central Bank. The
currency must fall in value, and then will be weaker because the
Central Bank has no reserves left.

The Central Bank will raise interest rates drastically, to stem
the Dollar hemorrhage and retain or bring in Dollars. The
devaluation will wreck savings, and the high interest rates will
devastate the productive structure. The Central Bank will
continue to invest its Dollar balances in U.S. Treasury Bills
paying less than 6%. Thus even the most severely afflicted
countries are financing the U.S. Government, at a cost to
themselves.

All countries in the world are in competition for U.S. Dollars,
which they must obtain at all costs, for failure to obtain
Dollars means devaluation, ruination of savings and financial
havoc. Further, devaluations are contagious, for devaluation in
one country will likely mean devaluation by others, as each
strives to hold on to its exports and indispensable Dollar
inflows.

Everywhere, exporting has become the central economic activity.
National economies are sacrificed for the benefit of exporters.
Wage rates are depressed by devaluation, and savings are
destroyed, so that exporters may export. Banking system are
thrown into liquidation for the same reason. Those entrepreneurs
who are fortunate enough to be exporters are happy, and they are
all for globalism. They can amass Dollars, which they can sell
for more of their national currencies, or keep offshore, as it
pleases them.

The economic centre of gravity of all countries has been thrust
outside their borders, placing them all in a condition of chronic
instability. Since Dollars are the objective, the U.S. has to be
the buyer, and the U.S. must run trade deficits to supply the
world with export surpluses. How else are the Dollars to flow to
the world's Central Banks? Some analysts speculate that the U.S.
trade deficit may reach $300 billion a year, and fear that whole
areas of U.S. economic activity may be wiped out by the desperate
export efforts of the rest of the world.

Such is the prevailing condition in the world's economy. Clearly,
it is unsound for the world to depend on exports to the U.S. for
national stability. And it is profoundly unsound for the U.S., to
place itself in the position of buyer of last resort to the
world.

When economic collapse comes about, as in Malaysia, the
globalists call for pulling down barriers to the flow of capital.
However, their diagnosis of the problem lacks depth; the problem
is not "free flow of capital"; it is not even, fundamentally,
overexpansion of credit or other unsound banking practices, but
rather, in the last analysis, the Bretton Woods system of Dollar
reserves, that skews every economy in the world towards the
objective of Dollars via exports, over everything else. The
globalists' insistence on lowering barriers to the entry of
foreign capital is interpreted, correctly, as political
intrusion, for power always follows money. Predictably,
nationalism flares up. Korean rioters may not understand just
what is going on, but their hatred of the IMF and foreign
takeovers of their banks, is justified. And nationalism is alive
and well in the U.S. itself, as will become very clear when the
trade deficit approaches $300 billion a year.

Our very odd world monetary and financial system, built on the
ruins of Bretton Woods, has produced an unstable world economy,
and is headed for a serious conflict with nationalist sentiments
the world over. Picture yourself playing "Monopoly" against a
player that owns the "Bank"!

The Soviet Union fell apart because of the inherent weakness of
its statist policies; the United States may find that its decline
in the world mirrors the fall of the Soviet Union, because of the
unsound basis of the monetary and financial system haunted by the
ghosts of those two economists, long dead, John Maynard Keynes
and Harry Dexter White.

If the world is out of joint because of the Dollar reserve system
instituted by Bretton Woods, then clearly, what the world
requires is a system where national currencies do not depend on
Dollar reserves. And that can only mean one thing: gold reserves,
and their corollary, currencies convertible into gold. Either
that, or we shall be treated to the spectacle of a crumbling
world economy, and virulent nationalistic reactions.

=======

Regards, J.


USAGOLD (11/24/2000; 11:31:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 42138)
Almost sold out on the Swiss confederatios
http://www.usagold.com/onlinestore/special.html
Just a short note to say that we are quickly getting to the bottom of the barrel on the Swiss Confederatios. This is the first time we've ever had this many Confederatios to offer and our regular clientele moved quickly. We've got a small problem in that we featured this coin in News & Views this month and we suspect it will be hitting the mailboxes this weekend. We expected the coin to sell well, but not this well. George Cooper will be at the office until about 4 pm today if anyone wants to get an order in before the weekend.

We would like to thank all who participated in this offer. Those who haven't we encourage to get your order in by calling George today or using the on-line store. All orders will be logged and filled on a first-come, first served basis until we run out of our allotment.

wolavka (11/24/2000; 11:26:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 42137)
DFCT
Which one of you guys bought the dfct today, come on I won't tell??????

ge (11/24/2000; 11:14:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 42136)
Salvadoran Backs Using U.S. Dollar - Currency Blocks?
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20001123/wl/salvador_us_dollar_1.html
Quote:
--------------
El Salvador might become the third Latin American country to adopt the U.S. dollar as an official currency.
...
The move is considered a last-ditch measure for countries unable to control their economies. Ecuador adopted the dollar in September to stem 100-percent annual inflation, and Panama has long used the greenback.

Argentina has flirted with dollarization, but instead instituted a rigid currency board pegging its peso to the dollar.

But the move could win new loans for El Salvador, IMF Managing Director Horst Koehler hinted Thursday.
....

---------




Pandagold (11/24/2000; 10:29:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 42135)
Bring a little Harmony into your life

Harmony, at these prices - should be in everybody's portfolio. A quality company in every way you look at it. Not only will you get capital appreciation once gold is given a bit of leash, but this company loves to share its profit with the shareholders. I have many good dividend cheques to prove it.

As for stable government - would you call the government of the US stable? The only connection with stable is the horsing around that goes on at the White House.

When the market crash really bites, and the world starts turning in these trillions of green iou's that have been pumped into the system for something tangible, you will see how stable the US is.

Of course, there is always the chance of another 'get out' to prolong the day - create some instability somewhere else, fan the flames, and have another little (or big) war that will call for the dynamic duo (US and UK) to go in for the kill. Although, this double act is wearing a bit thin now.

Harmony, Newmont, both good, but I would put Harmony first - even the name appeals. It breathes a breath of tranquility in a currently trouble sector.

Orville Goldenbacher (11/24/2000; 10:09:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 42134)
AND WE ARE OFF!!!
IT'S TO THE MOON, BABY!!!! GO GOLD!!!!

wolavka (11/24/2000; 8:40:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 42133)
let's go
lock it limit

wolavka (11/24/2000; 8:22:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 42132)
Beans rocket soon
soybeans!!!

wolavka (11/24/2000; 7:48:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 42131)
Intervention
overdue.

wolavka (11/24/2000; 7:37:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 42130)
long term slugs
Attention Dow and Duck investors:

Waiting to buy after 1-1-2001 for the 18% capital gains reduction.

I got news for you, your u.s. tax system will never make it.
This sick, puppy will be history!!!!!!!!!!!! Govt. employees
get a job!!!

dragonfly (11/24/2000; 7:34:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 42129)
ThaiGold
http://www.plata.com.mx/plata/comHSP18e.htm

Thanks for the link on silver and south of the border.

I was impressed with the clarity of perspective exemplified by the following excerpt.

---------------------------------------------------------


<<<Rudi, you are part of an organized effort to ANNEX MEXICO to the U.S., by pushing Mexico to use the U.S. Dollar as its currency, through a Currency Board as in Argentine. In the first place, you should be aware that Mexico wishes to remain an independent country. Second, you should focus your attention on your own country, for all those bad policies which you warn us against, and rightly so, are rampant in the U.S., and your currency is far from reliable, as we shall soon find out. Finally, you should be aware that Mexico has no interest in "surrendering", as you so insolently have suggested, but does have an interest in turning to a sound currency, such as silver, and thus preparing itself for the catastrophe which is staring the U.S.A. in the face.>>>

----------------------------------------------------------

I plan to read the rest of the articles and contemplate how our closest neighbors view us. Are we to become just one more "HUBRISTIC STATISTIC"?? Why not? The world may well be a safer place if our corrupted ambitions don't metastasize any further. Bring on the 'correction' and let survive what survives is my feeling. Death isn't the worst case condition. A life compromised by cowardice and self-serving rationalization is.

Regards,
dragonfly


Belgian (11/24/2000; 7:04:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 42128)
Harmony Gold
Ten years ago, Harmony had to live with the status : marginal mine ! Today it is one of the most dynamic and promessing gold-producer, for the next 20 years ! Management culture has changed radically. They were the first ones to work on sundays. Almost a crime in SA.
High flexible mining strategies, thanks to their vast reserves and future reserve possibilities. Check their mining-plans (maps). Buying Harmony is buying, very cheap, underground gold for the next 50 years. South African politics have already survived the worst. There is still gold, underground for the next 100 years. Just go and visit South Africa to change radically, hard dying perceptions for an eyeopening reality. I've already done my job as factfinder and investor. Zero debt, profit/dividend and massive reserves. For sale at bookvalue. Direct goldsales to China (!!). Hard working and honest Harmony only needs a bit of help from POG to sky rocket away. I own Harmony stock and have no ambition for investment advise.


Cavan Man (11/24/2000; 6:45:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 42127)
Topaz
You are right on the mark regarding your comments about any pending currency transition however great or small. Thanks for the perspective.

wolavka (11/24/2000; 4:59:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 42126)
Check it out
Interesting post over @ G.E. by Ben @ nov.23 22:55.

The interpretation of century III Quatrain 13, I disagree with:

MIDWAY:::::::: Japan will sink the worthless U.S. Dollar.

Topaz (11/24/2000; 4:06:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 42125)
Thai - the King of the Castle, Au
Thai,
I recall you arriving here with beautifully structured essays extolling the virtues of "Thaigold" (the Metal) and now you're plugging Silver.
Mate!! Ag is far too important a "commodity" to upstage Au as a "currency"...C-mon!!

Topaz (11/24/2000; 3:47:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 42124)
Zenidea
Hazard a guess Zen - you've been having a "wee dram"....me too!!
They forgot to include "Fed Gov't excise" to the list of displayed prices. These "Feds" think they're OPEC oil barons and are goin to ride this Oil price all the way - Sheikh Johnny and Ayatollah Pete, DUH!

Topaz (11/24/2000; 3:31:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 42123)
PH in LA - all
This Euro/Dollar thing cannot be viewed as an Us-v-Them scenario because what they seek to do is traverse from 1 reserve currency to another - seamlessly. Many "currency Wars" thoughts, to my mind at least, fail to recognise the importance of "seamless transition" ie: the Wheels must stay on. No-one (individuals, corporations or Countries) wants to have the finger pointed at them as the root cause of the "problem". It must be allowed to, and "seen to be" allowed to evolve of it's own accord.
Far too many examples present themselves for this not to be the case. IMHO

Zenidea (11/24/2000; 3:17:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 42122)
So be it.
Cafuffle the truth : , give hundreds of options and in small print and wallah !! Problem solved. The populace discuss the media trivialities to a point of democratic confusion and in the end the majority wind up agreeing with thoughs whom agree with them. Just like the best Bank Loan search :).
Re Silver , Glad to here some discussion on the matter .
esp nothing under 250 oz min. Why put a price on ascetics ?. Ascetics is nothing a bit of pressure cant fix is it ?. :).

Zenidea (11/24/2000; 3:03:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 42121)
Lame excuses ? Teeth or no teeth?

WA to get set fuel prices
From AAP
24nov00

18:45 (AEDT) PETROL retailers
in Western Australia would no
longer be able to change fuel
prices during the day under
new laws designed to create
price parity across the state.

Retailers would be forced to
set and display one daily price
for fuel, up to a maximum price
calculated and published by the
Prices Commissioner.

The new regulations are in
response to nationwide disquiet
about rising fuel prices,
particularly in country areas,
and would apply to LPG, diesel
and all grades of petrol.

The maximum price would be
calculated according to
information provided by oil
companies on their costs,
taking into consideration
fluctuating currency prices, a
Ministry of Fair Trading
spokesman said.

"Oil companies will have to supply information about their basic
terminal gate price and cartage rates," he said.

The public would be able to see displayed at service stations the
maximum wholesale price, the cost to distributors or retailers from
regional terminals, the average cost of cartage and the retail price.

Randy (@ The Tower) (11/24/2000; 2:26:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 42120)
Allow me to offer a translation
Sometimes, but not often, one may be heard to utter "contibility" to the puzzled looks of the listeners. The meaning--to the speaker's mind, of course--is precisely that of a word better known among the population as "convertibility".

Randy (@ The Tower) (11/24/2000; 2:18:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 42119)
Part of the equation you should know
http://www.feer.com/_0011_30/p076money.html
This article from the Far Eastern Economic Review covers many bases of the current movement toward contibility of the Renminbi.

"...the determination of the current Chinese leadership to push through its programme of economic reform cannot be doubted, and the shift in the present balance of global economic power, if it is successful, cannot be understated. [...] Beijing is now pursuing a greatly accelerated timetable."

"...under the terms of the WTO agreement Beijing is obliged to open its domestic banking industry to international competition within five years of joining the organization, after which capital controls will begin to lose their effectiveness. On that day China's economy, and its currency, will assume major importance on the world stage."

"The seismic shift in global financial markets caused by the emergence of the renminbi as a tradable currency will be comparable with the consequences of the explosion in yen trading 25 years ago."

"... it is likely that in the renminbi the world will gain a new global currency, one that will upset the current balance in global financial markets and one that nations will ignore at their peril."

That's right.

ThaiGold (11/24/2000; 2:08:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 42118)
Harmony Shares
Attn: PorterSweden ... bye the way ...
PorterSweden:
Was that you, who recently asked for info about Harmony
mining shares.?. If so, you might want to be cautious and
reconsider. Harmony would be an exceptional performer, if
it weren't subject to the instability and vagaries of Africa. I feel
a blue chip North American producer, such as Newmont NEM
is alot safer. Compare the long term charts of both, plus the
regular dividends. Both are at nearly all time lows. A good time to buy either of them. But Newmont seems to react
faster to positive moves of POG the past fews days. As techie
day traders jump onto the next "favorite sector" (PM shares)
I believe they will prefer Newmont, over Harmony. Remember,
large funds tend to purchase shares that have little adverse
uncertainties. Harmony may not be on their list. Newmont is.
-not investment advice- disclaimer: I own shares in Newmont.
ThaiGold



ThaiGold (11/24/2000; 1:55:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 42117)
Gold: The Poor Man's Silver
Attn: PorterSweden (11/24/2000; 1:30:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 42116)
PorterSweden:
Welcome (belatedly) to the RoundTable..
That's an amazing prediction he made in way back 1973.

Some time ago (several weeks) I posted a scenario an essay
which I titled: "Gold: The Poor Man's Silver"....

In it, I foresaw a situation where all major currencies collapse,
with the world grasping at straws for a viable alternative that
would be widely acceptable and available to the masses. It
would not..NOT..be Gold. Nope. Because it would be too
expensive, or, paradoxically too worthless (unwanted) for the
task at hand. Instead, I postulated, Silver would become the
precious metal of choice, worldwide. Hence, in a pragmatic
way, more "valuable" than Gold. Holders of Physical Gold to
be left in the dust, hence the reverse of the old motto.
It's the kinda off-beat stuff you'd read here, by me.
Regards,
ThaiGold@OperaMail.Com


PorterSweden (11/24/2000; 1:30:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 42116)
The price of gold will rise astronomically ?
In 1973 Pastor David Wilkerson received "a vision of five tragic calamities coming upon the earth".

Some of the predictions on economic calamity from his book "The Vision":
"... the world economy will become white-hot.
... the dollar will appear to be gaining strength just before the coming major recession.
... the American dollar headed for deep trouble, but so are all other world currencies.
... I see total economic confusion striking Europe first ...
... The price of gold will rise astronomically but it will not be sustained ...
... Gold hoarders are going to get hurt - badly.
... Washington and the American bankers will be blamed."

I have seen no astronomic POG rise as yet, but I can see CLEARLY the stage is being set.
Comment?
PorterSweden






ThaiGold (11/24/2000; 1:08:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 42115)
Silver: The Real Money... Essays from Latin America Perspective.
http://www.plata.com.mx/plata/english.htm
Several very enlightening essays at this (above) link, regarding
Silver and it's upcoming/inevitable resurgence throughout the
countries of Latin America, as Legal Tender coinage. They
intend to ween themselves from Dollarization in 2001. Fed up
with IMF and World Bank trashing their economies.
You won't hear about these on CNBC...

ThaiGold (11/24/2000; 0:51:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 42114)
RePost: Current Real-Time Florida UnOfficial Vote Status
http://foxnews.com/elections/florida_recount_hand.html
http://foxnews.com/elections/florida_recount_hand.html



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