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Welcome to the USAGOLD Gold Discussion Archives. The archives of this gold discussion forum are a treasure trove of information to educate investors about protecting their wealth through portfolio diversification with private gold ownership. The discussion forum also covers the wider issues of the past, present, and future role of gold in international monetary policy and the dynamics of the modern gold markets...

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The opinions posted by all guests are expressly their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the management or staff of USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals. The hosting of the public discussion shall therefore not be construed as an endorsement by USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals of any of the opinions posted here.

 

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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 2/23/2003
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

(Yesterday's Discussion.)

USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc. (02/23/03; 23:49:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 98267)
In bookstores for $14.95. Get yours directly from the author for $5.95!
http://www.usagold.com/cpm/abcs.html

The ABCs of Gold Investing

ABCs of Gold by MK"Without waxing philosophical, a few words are helpful concerning the mind-set with which you pursue your interest in gold ownership. Some enter the gold market to make a profit, others to hedge disaster, some to accomplish both. No matter into which category you fit, make sure you understand why you are going into the gold market. Convey that understanding to the individual with whom you are structuring your gold portfolio. The whys have quite a bit to do with what you end up owning.

"Frequently investors will say that any kind of gold will do because after all gold is gold, isn't it? This type of attitude has helped a great many coin shop owners unload unwanted inventory they hadn't been able to get rid of for years. This is probably a good deal for the coin dealer, but it could spell disaster for you. In the same vein, I have talked to hundreds, probably thousands, of investors in nearly a quarter century in the business. Quite often, potential investors have no more reason for buying gold than 'everybody else is doing it.'

"In Chapter 16 on portfolio planning, you will find some details on this important subject. For now, consider the inscription over the entrance to the temple of the ancient Delphic Oracle: 'Know Thyself.' Study. Read. Learn what's going on around you. Call a few gold firms and ask questions. There's nothing like conversation to stimulate thinking. Take time to lay a little groundwork. Then make your move. The political and economic situation being what it is, there is no better time to start than now. Know thyself -- your goals and needs -- and you will be a more confident, happier gold investor." (more)

Please Remember: It is your purchase from USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals that nourishes these pages.



Black Blade (02/23/03; 23:06:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 98266)
Conquest of Iraq no guarantee of lower oil prices
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/02/23/1045935278340.html

Snippit:

Many people expect that a US-led victory over Saddam Hussein will eventually result in a gusher of oil from a liberated Iraq, bringing down petroleum prices. But the recent fate of neighbouring Iran's energy industry suggests a different future - one in which it could be years before new Iraqi oil has any lasting impact on what consumers pay for fuel. A huge new project called South Pars, on Iran's Persian Gulf coast, attests to the billions of dollars foreign oil companies have invested in Iran since the country launched its "New Dawn" plan in 1991. Tehran aimed to revive its oil industry, ravaged by years of revolution and war with Iraq. Yet today, Iran can't pump any more crude than a decade ago. The reason: new production has only offset the rapid decline of Iran's other giant fields that have been pumping oil for decades. Attempts to revive the Iraqi industry are likely to face the same knotty problems Iran faces: the glacial pace of negotiations to clinch contracts and the years it then takes to tap large petroleum reservoirs, even as output drops from tired old fields.

Buyers of Iraqi oil already note a decline in the quality of the crude coming from the prized Kirkuk field, an indication output capacity may be waning at the huge reservoir, which has been producing oil for 64 years. Iraq's other major reservoir, the Rumaila field in the south, also has been pumping for decades. A United Nations study of Iraq's oilfields a few years ago painted a grim scene of failing wells and equipment, environmental devastation and rampant safety hazards. Since then, little solid detail has emerged on the fields. Even with a pro-US government in Baghdad, it might take years for Western oil giants to nail down deals, oil veterans say. Depending on the extent of the damage to Iraq's infrastructure and how long it takes for a stable government to emerge, it could be five years or more before oil from new developments boosts world supplies.


Black Blade: The POO could drop quickly after the invasion begins, however, once the extent of the damage to Iraq's oil infrastructure becomes known and that a new influx of oil does not emerge it is very likely that oil prices will quickly rebound as inventories fail to recover.



ElGordo (02/23/03; 22:58:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 98265)
ECB rate cut hurting Euro
http://reuters.com/printerFriendlyPopup.jhtml?type=usDollarRpt&storyID=2273587
Much of the market's attention in the early going was focused on Fukui, who analysts said was unlikely to depart from the policies pursued by Hayami, an adamant opponent of inflation targeting.

"With Fukui (as governor), we're not expecting to see the yen come under strong selling pressure as he has been against adopting an inflation target," said Hideaki Furumaya, head of interbank desk at Trust and Custody Services Bank.

Finance Minister Masajuro Shiokawa told reporters on Monday that he thinks Koizumi will probably decide the next governor in the afternoon.

Koizumi reiterated he wants someone who will actively fight deflation as the next BOJ governor, but declined to give a specific name.

Furumaya, however, pointed out that Fukui's selection would be neutral to the market and said Monday morning's downtrend in the dollar/yen rate was mainly led by the euro's broad-based weakness.

"The ECB's view on a possible interest rate cut caused broad-based euro-selling, especially against the yen. A further drop in euro-yen should put more pressure on the dollar/yen rate," Furumaya said.

"I think the fate of dollar/yen totally depends on how the euro/yen rate performs," he added.


Waverider (02/23/03; 22:54:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 98264)
Yen Rises; Fukui May Head BOJ
http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?ptitle=Top%20Financial%20News&s1=blk&tp=ad_topright_topfin&T=markets_box.ht&s2=ad_right1_topfin&bt=ad_position1_topfin&box=ad_box_all&tag=financial&middle=ad_frame2_topfin&s=APlmuRhQBWWVuIFJp
Snip:
"The yen rose after the Yomiuri newspaper said the government will appoint Toshihiko Fukui to replace Masaru Hayami as head of the Bank of Japan. Fukui has spoken out against the bank setting an inflation target. "Fukui is seen as less aggressive in taking steps to re-inflate the economy, which would partly mean deliberately weakening the yen,'' said Noriaki Masuda, a currency trader at UFJ Bank Ltd. ``His appointment, at least short-term, is seen as yen- positive.'' Fukui, former vice governor of the BOJ, will probably be named the next central bank chief as early as today by Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi, the Yomiuri said without citing anyone. Unlike some candidates, Fukui hasn't spoken in favor of deliberately trying to increase inflation. He said in December the BOJ shouldn't be pressured into adopting an inflation target, which means setting a goal for prices and pumping money into the banking system until it's met, a move which may dilute the yen's value, traders said. ``There's not that much difference between Fukui's position and Hayami's,'' said Tomoya Masanao, a portfolio manager in Tokyo at Pacific Investment Management Co.,``He's said the BOJ needs to maintain independence from the government, and he's an anti- inflation target person.''

Black Blade (02/23/03; 22:18:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 98263)
Market Indicators
http://www.mrci.com/qpnight.asp

This is quite "interesting" as US market index futures are higher with the USD soaring. Howeverm even with Gold flat, oil is back to $36/bbl on the new contract and NatGas soared to over $7 mbtu, and I mean soaring. The NOAA and NWS now admit that their weather predictions for this winter have been way off the mark as a much colder than normal winter has been the reality. It appears that the next 15 day outlook will continue to be cold driving petroleum much higher. This of course brings us to why the US market index futures and USD should be higher. It leads only to one of three conclusions. Either the market is discounting the fact of much higher energy costs (in effect ignoring them and burying their head in the sand), or else the few players left in the market have no choice but to place their bets somewhere. The last possibility would be simply institutional money (President's Working Group on Financial Markets) working to draw in the suckers and with such low volume that isn't too difficult these days. Regardless, the rapidly rising energy costs are going to slauighter the market longs.

- Black Blade

Pizz (02/23/03; 21:24:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 98262)
Ever see a 5.8 oz. nugget?
Just came back from Eastern Washington State. The Cascade range has some gold mines.

The Blewett Pass area has several old mining towns and there are still old timers living there in cabins that regularly work claims.

There's an old bar and restaurant called Mineral Springs that is the half way point on our trips that we frequent for some great food and conversation. Tonight there was a picture over the bar of 5.8 oz nugget that "Billie" came up with last fall. The owner also works claims and was showing us pictures of their mining operation on a creak up the mountain. They are getting ready to work hundreds of tons of ore bearing rock and gravel after they broke into an old 50 year plus mine shaft that has some good potential.

About half way thru dinner, the owner pointed over his shoulder as old Billie and his wife came in for a drink.

Got introduced and had a nice chat with him. Seems he is the local nugget bloodhound, since the 5.8 is his second and has another from a couple years back that's over six ounces.

I pulled the gold eagle I carry in my pocket and set it down in front of him and laughed and said his was bigger than mine.

These guys don't follow monetary history and the markets as we do, and when I told them it sure appears that gold is heading into a bull market, Billie asked if I thought gold would ever go back to 800 bucks. Seems he sold about ten years worth of mining at 525 back in the late seventies.

Told him as long as he had a fairly long time frame in mine - say 5 years plus, he'd more than likely see it break 850 higher.

The owner was concerned, since all these independents have been holding on to their gold for years and he was afraid that at 500 if they dumped their gold it would drive the price down. Told him not to lose too much sleep over that.

Fun evening. . .

Pizz


elevator guy (02/23/03; 21:11:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 98261)
remain calm, and go back to work (With a straight face)
Recently, it has come to my attention that many posters beleive that there is some sort of conspiracy regarding various issues such as the Federal Reserve, control of our nation's monetary policies, so-called dollar hedgemony, and allegations of a Euro/Dollar battle played out in a war of conquest with Iraq.

These ideas are the ludicrous inventions of a lunatic fringe, who pass their time imagining all sorts of cloak and dagger skullduggery, having absolutely no basis in fact. Such paranoid ramblings are detrimental to the health of our great country, and anyone who deals in such subversive behavior will be detected and shot as traitors to democracy. If you hear of any neighbors speaking such treason, please report them to authorities.

Everything is fine, the country is sound, our money is good, there is no war of conquest for oil, the Federal Reserve is just a service branch of the government, and there is no reason for alarm. The two political parties govern with duly elected representatives of the people.

Remain calm, and go back to work. There is nothing to worry about. The State is caring for you.

physicalman (02/23/03; 21:07:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 98260)
Daniel Druff-silver
Silvers primary resource for 5500 years up until 1964 was monetary. Graanted silver has thousands of industrial and other applications and about 450 new uses are discovered every year. Those disposible camera's you harp about have over 94% of the silver recycled out of them. Recycling of all photographic films in the US is around 83% and would be 90% except for patient x-rays kept on file for many years.
Solving the silver problem requires that the price go to a point that reflects supply/demand and stay that way so mining of primary and secondary deposits can be done profitably. This will not happen until the paper silver burns and severe enviro restrictions are beaten down/abolished and america can restore herself as one of the world's leading producers of minerals and industrial commodities.

knotakare (02/23/03; 20:42:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 98259)
Add an unpopular war to the Dollar baggage
I hear from many sources in the financial press corps that that the US Stock markets will rise with the start of the Gulf War 2. But I can't believe this. I think that this war has the potential to send the dollar into a freefall. All the risk that I can see is on the downside.

Once the war begins, uncertainty and risk multiply exponentially. This is exactly the opposite of what the mainstrem media is expousing.

As Black Blade says, things are "going to get interesting".

Cytek (02/23/03; 20:28:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 98258)
Gonna Hit The Wall
http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?ptitle=Top%20World%20News&s1=blk&tp=ad_topright_topworld&T=markets_box.ht&s2=ad_right1_windex&bt=ad_position1_windex&box=ad_box_all&tag=worldnews&middle=ad_frame2_windex&s=APlfCzxVVVS5TLiBH
02/22 13:34
U.S. Governors Say Deficits Worst in Decades, Seek Federal Aid
By Todd Zeranski


Washington, Feb. 22 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. governors called for more federal help to pay for rising health care costs and homeland security, saying their states' deficits are among the worst since World War II and could more than double next year.

The 50 states have a combined deficit of about $30 billion for the fiscal year ending July 31, according to the National Governors Association. Next year, that figure could rise to $80 billion.

``We can get through this year, but next year we're going to hit the wall,'' association chairman Paul Patton, Kentucky's Democratic governor, said at a press conference opening the group's winter meeting in Washington.

State tax revenue has plummeted because of the country's stalled economy and stock market losses. According to the National Conference of State Legislatures, eight states have fired workers to cut costs, and in 24 others either the governor or legislators have proposed raising taxes. The organization estimates the total deficits for the states will reach $94 billion by mid-2004.

Patton cited his decision earlier this year to release 900 felons from prison before their terms were up as an example of the difficult choices governors have to make to balance budgets.

`We're taking in less revenue because people are earning less, and they're spending less because of less disposable income,'' Johanns said.

Cytek - Too many parallels to WWII popping up. What i find most interesting is releasing felons before their terms are up. Jobs are difficult to find for the experienced, where are these guys going to go? Hmmmm, back to the life of crime. Along with Gold and Silver, stocking up on some lead and iron might be a good idea too.




ElGordo (02/23/03; 19:32:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 98257)
Sector-new article on kurds/turks
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/02/24/wirq224.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/02/24/ixnewstop.html
Kurdish leaders in Iraq gave warning yesterday that American-sanctioned deployment of Turkish troops in northern Iraq would lead to fighting.
------
"The Turks are only coming for oil," he said, "those Turkomen who ask the Turks to come here; we don't like them, they are like spies for the Turkish government."


ElGordo (02/23/03; 19:12:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 98256)
War and Budget
Goldendome- The budget deficit looks to be the biggest
on record - and growing during the decade. Who knows
how much the war will cost. The deficit numbers will
be scary.

Sector- The hold-up with Turkey was over more than
money. This area in the north, Kirkuk and Mosul, could be
the scene of much fighting for some time to come.

Druff- Silver for rocket motors uses very small amounts
of silver-I mentioned it just to show the powerful catalyst effect
when mixed with Hydrogen Peroxide. Biocide uses will potentially consume millions of ounces.

mikal (02/23/03; 19:01:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 98255)
@glennh10
http://www.usagold.com/goldtrail/default.html
He is also known as Sir Douglas and you will find the earlier writings of his mentor, "Another", at the same link.

mikal (02/23/03; 18:57:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 98254)
@glennhh
FOA is Friend of Another, also known as Trail Guide, author of the uniquely contemporary and incisive gold explorations found at the "Gold Trail" section of Usagold. Click on the heading above each page or go to link that follows.

glennh10 (02/23/03; 18:45:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 98253)
Re: FOA News Articles
Please forgive my ignorance, but if someone here could tell me, what is "FOA"? I see the reference from time to time.

Thanks.


mikal (02/23/03; 18:41:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 98252)
China's currency critics promote gradual revaluation
http://www.cbsmarketwatch.com
China learns the currency game
Commentary: What comes around, goes around
By Allen Wan, CBS.MarketWatch.com - Excerpts:
Last Update: 7:54 PM ET Feb. 23, 2003
WASHINGTON (CBS.MW) -- One of the more interesting developments at this weekend's G7 summit meeting in Paris is Japan criticizing China for using its currency to boost its exports at the expense of its global rivals.
It's ironic as Tokyo has used -- and still uses -- the same weak-currency strategy to incredible success over the years. Ask the United States, which adopted "managed trade" and other protectionist measures to fend off the Japanese export machine.
In Paris, Japanese Finance Minister Masajuro Shiokawa urged the world's richest nations to pressure China to drop its currency peg to the dollar -- which has been locked at around 8 yuan to the greenback since 1994. To the chagrin of the Chinese, the rival Japanese are attracting listeners as the U.S. and Europe indicated support for such a move.
Japan's probably right
As funny as it to see the Japanese squirm as the Chinese beats it at its own game, they make a compelling argument for a revalued yuan currency -- stopping global deflation, for one. They say product prices have been kept inordinately low as result of a flood of cheap manufactured goods from China.
Here are some others: with annual growth at around 8 percent over the past decade, China has emerged as the world's sixth biggest economy -- with no currency appreciation to show for it.
A weak currency has also helped Beijing build a huge unsustainable trade surplus with the rest of the world. The surplus with the U.S. topped $100 billion last year -- a fact that President Bush and his economic team will probably address when Iraq and North Korea are no longer a distraction.....
It may not, however, take much to ask the Chinese to experiment with a slight appreciation of its currency as part of broader measures to stimulate growth, along with foreign investment and economic reform.
At a recent Asia Business Conference held at the Harvard Business School, noted Harvard University sinologist Ezra Vogel said that it's becoming clear that China is becoming the reluctant fourth wheel of the global economy after the U.S., Europe and Japan, especially given the important role it plays in Southeast Asia....." End snippits


mikal (02/23/03; 18:01:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 98251)
Rumsfeld taking no human shields prisoners
http://cbc.ca/stories/2003/02/23/shields030223
'Human shields' camp out in Baghdad
Sun, 23 Feb 2003 17:36:55
BAGHDAD - Fifteen self-described 'human shields' set up shop this weekend at a Baghdad power plant in an effort to keep bombs from falling on it.
The volunteers, from Sweden, Spain, Italy and Finland, are among the first groups of peace activists who say they'll use their bodies to speak out against war. Overall, there are close to 200 activists in Baghdad.
Plant workers in Baghdad gave the activists a warm welcome, but critics say they are being used by the Iraqi government. Last week, U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said any Iraqi officials who helped deploy the human shields could be tried for war crimes.
But Ken O'Keefe, founder of the human shield group, said that's nonsense. "People around the world do not support this war, yet the United States and the UK governments are leading us directly into it," said O'Keefe.
"If we wait for them to do the right thing, we will be waiting until the end of time."
Other members of the group plan to set up a peace camp along the Iraqi-Kuwaiti border.


sector (02/23/03; 17:46:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 98250)
@ElGordo The Kurds, Turks, Mosul, Kirkuk, Saddam and Bush
No Shots ...yet...
...and the vbattle lines are drawn in the mountains of Iraq.

The land in Mosul and Kirkuk is Kurdish land...Kurdish oil...Kurdish homes stolen by Saddam. The Turks are seen as invaders and will be met with ferocity by the Kurds who know for a fact that they will be once again shafted by the bureaucrats in Washington and savaged by the Turks.

They will not "trust" the US to broker their homes back to them if Turks are there. The US will be their enemy. They've been gassed [Probably by the Iranians] and they fear nothing and...worse, have absolutely nothing to lose.

The US hasn't heard the first shot and the war has already taken an ominous turn.

The Amerivcan Waterloo awaits.

Cavan Man (02/23/03; 17:44:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 98249)
US Tac Cut Plan: Commentary from EU
Go to war and cut taxes; huh?
Europeans attack US tax cut plan at G7 forum
By Alan Beattie and Christopher Swann in Paris
Published: February 23 2003 20:58 | Last Updated: February 23 2003 20:58


The heads of the European Central Bank and eurozone finance ministers have expressed deep scepticism about the US administration's $690bn tax cut plan.


Wim Duisenberg, ECB president, and Nikos Christodoulakis, the Greek minister who chairs the "eurogroup" of eurozone finance ministers, attacked the plan at the meeting of the Group of Seven leading industrialised nations in Paris at the weekend, saying it endangered the world economy.

Mr Christodoulakis said the re-emergence of "twin deficits" - fiscal and balance of payments - "may create sustainability risks, which in case they materialise would have significant ramifications well beyond the US itself". The tax proposal "in terms of size, composition and timing" did not dissipate these concerns.




Goldendome (02/23/03; 17:37:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 98248)
Inflation Vs. Deflation
In a recent lengthy commentary entitled, "Deflation fears are Irrational", Ed Bugos of the Goldenbar Report, lays out his thoughts on this subject. I excerpted a few of the areas that I found particularily interesting, and certainly hope I am presenting them in an acceptable manner. ----Goldendome


...up until now, their [peoples] experience with inflation has been good. It's been so good that Americans now routinely beg the government to "do something for their economy." They mean inflation, more of it, but the good kind. Not the kind that makes the value of the currency fall. Rather, the kind that stimulates commerce and, uh, of course, stock prices! The kind where the perceived rate of return in capital markets is real and caps the relative price of gold (this is how they kept inflation in check through the nineties).


No wonder investors still aren't really listening to the gold argument. They don't want to believe it. They want to believe that the government and Fed are doing all they can for the economy, and their dollar assets, to stimulate commerce. Believe me, they are. Only, there's no gold left in that coin, and the entire world owns dollars, still waiting on those positive real returns to de facto hold down the relative value of gold.

...the deflation argument implies the dollar's monetary value would be unaffected in a credit crisis, or that the crisis would cause it to rise in value relative to most goods as the credit crunch results in contracting "money supplies." This idea originates from the auspices of elastic money theory.


But the theory only works in one direction in reality, expansion. When since Roosevelt took America off the gold standard has a contraction ever been the case for longer than six months? The reason is always the same. No matter how governments try and restrict or control inflationism, it never works. We've already noted the pushing of the string analogy is more applicable to the effects of monetary policy on real growth than it is to the ability of the King to shave more gold off the coin of the realm, if you will. A contraction in the monetary aggregates is a restrictionist's or deflationist's pipedream...

Finally, let me be clear on something else. As gold's monetary value increases, to the extent it [gold] gradually becomes money, we will be experiencing deflation. The price of most things will fall in value relative to it[gold], particularly those assets whose value is tied to the dollar's. That is going to be our only deflation. In terms of gold..



Daniel Druff (02/23/03; 15:59:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 98247)
ElGordo
The Monetary Benefit
And don't discount the monetary benefit of silver. If it's used as money in circulation you can always use it for killing bacteria in a pinch. Just use your pocket change for quick cures. It's beautiful acting stuff.

Thank you

Daniel Druff (02/23/03; 15:53:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 98246)
ElGordo
Silver and Rockets
Kind Sir, I beg you...please stay away from the Industrial use of silver. Silver is much too important - as a Resource - to be used in rockets or any other vanishing act you might conjure up.

Should we act surprised when a great competition for physical silver develops between the Medical Sector and the Industrial Sector? Again I beg you, don't hook up with the teenagers.

Thank you

[First it's film for throwawayy cameras and now we have rocket fuel...what next? This waste really must end, soon.]

Boilermaker (02/23/03; 15:40:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 98245)
Leigh
Thanks for the rec. on "Gods and Generals". My neighbor's 7 year old son came by this afternoon and told me that his grandfather took him to see it and he loved it. I've watched "Gettysburg" with him twice, he's a mini Civil War groupee. Someday there will be a financial civil war flick along the lines of Prometheus' vision. I'm already in the trenches waiting for the command to CHARGE!

Boilermaker

Golden Bear (02/23/03; 15:23:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 98244)
Brett Woods (msg#: 98238)
Yes you are right. There is no need to have your eyes checked, the photo is gone - for what reason, I do not know.

I have saved a copy of it for posterity's sake. Such choice evidence going against the flow of propaganda can't be allowed to be swallowed up into the abyss called revisionist history...

Cheers.

Leigh (02/23/03; 14:35:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 98243)
Mr Gresham - "Gods and Generals"
"Gods and Generals" is a terrific movie! Our family (my husband, me, and the two kids) went to the Richmond, VA premiere last Tuesday night. The governor was there, the director (Ron Maxwell), Robert Duvall, and numerous other members of the cast. It was a very glamorous occasion, and we had the best possible seats - front row center in the balcony.

The movie is a long one, with an intermission. But it is most definitely worth seeing. The Southern viewpoint was definitely represented (the northern viewpoint will be represented in the sequel), but you could also appreciate the humanity of the Union troops. It showed that the issues were not clear-cut (many of the Southerners also disliked slavery; the Union was fighting against the idea of states' rights even more than the idea of slavery; the slaves loved their white masters and their homes while at the same time fervently desiring freedom).

This is the prequel to "Gettysburg," and there will be a third movie made to round out the series.

Mr Gresham (02/23/03; 13:36:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 98242)
Oh, that again!
http://i2.ifilm.com/detail/?filmid=2454149
New Civil War movie out -- Ted Turner, Robert Duvall, Bob Dylan -- snippets here.

It's _always_ time to review history. Big questions always in the air. Why? Was it necessary? Was sacred icon Lincoln just a little bit off his nut? If you can't even think about it, then why bother "living in a democracy"?

We've done some good ones, and some awful ones. I think that's why WW2 has been played up so much in our lifetimes. Blot out the bad stories we've never really delved into. There are plenty.

But -- the nation ITSELF should welcome, should sponsor, impartial review of all our actions. Not discourage it, beat it off, so as to corral the ready availability of fingers on triggers needed for the next executive policy of the moment.

Your military is an _insurance_ policy you use to protect what you've built and worked for and love. Not a "profit center" to go out and score some quick income off of. Make too many claims on your fire insurance, and someone might suspect you of being an arsonist.

And, oh, the missed opportunity to make a strategic run around Osama's weak flank and INCLUDE Islam's populace in today's world. Cui bono, cui bono?

Could the educated populace of a great nation decide to go to war? Yes, they could. But not under these circumstances. Where are the grownups?

Goldendome (02/23/03; 13:26:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 98241)
@ El Gordo., your #98218 –Debt Time Bomb

I always enjoy reading pieces on the projected budget deficits, because regardless the current machinations and price fixing in the current Au and Ag markets, it gives comfort to know that we are doing the correct thing as accumulators, for eventually paper is doomed as we know it now.

Mort Zuckerman, owner of US News & World Report, recently reported that he believed this current years budget deficit would come in around $400 billion. Mort's no more an economist than you or I, but I tend to believe his number more than the official gov. projections, that we know as self-serving.

It's always dangerous to attempt economic trends with a straight edge on a trend line, so I'll just use an old envelope here and come up with my own projections for the year 2013, Let's see here:

Start with current official budget deficit………………………………………………………....$250 Bil..
Add the current amount of the supposed SSI surplus now used to plug the deficit gap…………$300 Bil.
Add in new or increased social spending, drugs, medicare, defunct pension plans, etc………. $ 50 Bil.
Goldendome's total projected deficit for 2013 ………….$600 Billion


Note : This budget deficit doesn't include more tax cuts, nor the cost of a war, so it too, may be way to conservative. Add another 20 years on to it, when the country is supposed to start using the SSI surpluses (that have already been spent) to plug those deficits to pay the oldsters in their dotage, and I could come up with a really bizzar number. Will the world continue to fund all of this, maybe, but I doubt it.


Daniel Druff (02/23/03; 12:44:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 98240)
Sector
"Regarding silver -- we see comments from floor traders "You don't want to be short silver for the rest of your life-time". We see lease rates moving up. We see the price making a tiny move up. We see Paul O'Neill now on the Kodak Board of Directors [What the heck is HE doing THERE?]." Sector

I think you've put your finger on it. Midas passed on the "don't short silver" warning the day before the O'Neill/Kodak announcement. The former Secretary of The Treasury is now a board member of one of the largest consumers of silver in the world.

Is it too much of a stretch to anticipate a big play for silver in the very near future? I think not.

Perhaps Mr. O'Neill should be asked how $15 silver will will effect Kodak's bottom line...$20 silver and Mr. O'Neill loses this job too.

Thank you


Brett Woods (02/23/03; 12:06:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 98238)
@GoldenBear msg#98167

Rubbing my eyes...is it just me? Where has the picture gone? Saddam shaking hands with his friend (Donald Rumsfeld) 1983-85? Friday 21st I see it, Sunday 23rd it's gone.

ElGordo (02/23/03; 11:42:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 98235)
On to Kirkuk! (its the oil)
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=PWZDJV03Z1G2SCRBAELCFEY?type=topNews&storyID=2272535
He said Turkey was also worried over who would control Iraqi oil fields around the cities of Kirkuk and Mosul if the United States invades over Iraq's alleged weapons of mass destruction.

Yakis said Turkey was concerned that Iraqi Kurds expelled from the two cities by the Iraqi government would rush to reclaim their homes and possibly claim the oil fields too.

"The formulation we are nearing agreement on is that those areas will be under U.S. control," Yakis said.
-----

In Tehran, Iranian Kurd parliamentarians also voiced concern about Turkish intentions in Iraq and accused Ankara of seeking to control Kirkuk and Mosul, once part of the Ottoman empire.

The 22-strong Iranian Kurdish parliamentary faction wrote to U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan, European Union leaders and Iranian President Mohammad Khatami, urging them to prevent any Turkish military incursion into northern Iraq.

"Who in the world does not know that Turks have a desire for Kirkuk oil and annexation of Kirkuk and Mosul to their soil?" the letters said. "Authorizing a Turkish military presence in Iraqi Kurdistan means authorizing genocide and termination of Iraq's territorial integrity."



sector (02/23/03; 10:48:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 98234)
Brief on Silver
The LBMA Silver Volume Linear Regression Line Intercepts...
...zero near the end of the first quarter 2003. That would be pretty much now.

For several years since 1997 the falling silver volume in London has been on a straight line to zero. The Confidence value [R^2] is .787 -- not a slam dunk, but respectable as a predictor. The volume is falling because fewer and fewer traders are willing to trade at today's absurdly low prices.

Now to the cryptanalysis. Yep. That's what this stuff is since we are in a gold war with a big cartel [The Fed and its friends]. Conventional wave analysis has been useless becuase it cannot account for official intervention.

The Fed is the same kind of cartel as OPEC...with exactly the same disinformation campaigns, misleading double-talking statements and hidden secret coalitions, alliances and policies. OPEC wants to convey that they can hold back crude production anytime to drive up the price of crude oil. The Fed posits that they have an endless supply of gold to sell and fiat paper to print.

The Fed cartel is a gold and fiat currency cartel. They want to conserve gold while still suppressing its price and they choose to print dollars while scheming, mostly with derivatives, to inflate the dollar's perceived value.

Regarding silver -- we see comments from floor traders "You don't want to be short silver for the rest of your life-time". We see lease rates moving up. We see the price making a tiny move up. We see Paul O'Neill now on the Kodak Board of Directors [What the heck is HE doing THERE?].

We also know for a fact that gold was and is controlled by official selling. Therefore we can deduce that silver, too, is similarly controlled but who could be the big official seller? Recall that there is no mountain of central bank silver to dump on the longs so there must be a big silver producer who is the culprit. Mexico is the only logical source for official selling.

We saw Vincente Fox snub the President in January 2001 by not attending his inauguration -- a very big insult. Then we saw Bush go hat-in-hand to meet Mr. Fox.

The possible deal cut at that meeting likely had to do with silver -- the only thing Mexico really has to offer the US -- silver to suppress it's price and hold up the dollar. Now it's two years later [To the week of Bush's visit] ] and the US may not have renewed the deal. Why not renew?

Perhaps the president knows the price of silver is going way up as the result of a planned devaluation of the dollar and a deal to reimburse Mexico extra funds for selling its silver below market prices would cost too much.

The O’Neill factor makes sense if they, too, know all this [Which they would from the former SECTRES] and are trying to curry private favors with the Mexicans on their own.

Mexico has just announced it won't back a second UN Security Council Resolution on Iraq.

"You don't want to be short silver for the rest of your life-time".


slingshot (02/23/03; 10:14:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 98233)
MidEastGold
When it all runs out. The Throw Away Society
Ten million barrels a day. Made into plastic to make toys for us to enhance our lives. How much of it is waste. Game boys to play stations. Each day there is a new cell phone and each computer made scrap by the next advancement in technology. Our junk yards are filled with plastic cars and plasic plates and silverware thrown away at each meal.Yes, I am guilty of using these products but, I also realise that one day I will wash the dishes and ride a bike and my grandchildren will have to use their imagination to play together. If gold has any connection to oil and how the economy of the world functions, you better get some soon.
Thank you MidEastGold for your answer. Welcome aboard.
Slingshot-----------<>

Noble1 (02/23/03; 09:06:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 98231)
Tonto

Thank you for your responses(#98206) to my #98200 post yesterday. As far as metal detectors(question #1) being able to discover the Gold eagles in possession, it does not matter. I am not trying to hide them. I just want to know how many Gold eagles I can take out of the country without having to report them. Your response to q#3 makes sense but what if I offer an item(e.g. real estate) for $1,000.00 face value in Gold Eagles and someone comes in with that amount in FRNs. Am I required to accept them or risk being sued for specific performance?
Basically, what I am trying to establish is when our government considers a Gold Eagle to be legal tender and when it must be accounted for at it's bullion value.

Remember: Paper burns. Gold melts. What you you rather be left with?

MidEastGold (02/23/03; 08:25:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 98230)
answer to slingshot
For the US which imports 10 million barrels a day that would be 322,580 oz. a day. or a little over 10 tons a day. Maybe the oil producers would start settling for silver?

CoBra(too) (02/23/03; 08:23:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 98229)
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_03/holloway022403.html
Haven't seen this covered here.

Seems a very convenient way to block a lot of people from buying physical under the pretext of fighting money laundering. On numerous occasions in the last 20 years similar tactics have been introduced, effectively curbing cash transactions and moving closer to totally control and regulate the financial and foreign exchange markets.

Even as global perception is moving away from paper towards hard assets - foremost gold and silver - the PTB is trying to denigrate the move to safety. The US-$ has taken it squarely onto the chin and may fall even further (a lot according to any precedent), the administrationäs move may prove to be only a short term barrier.

Wonder how you see it, MK. Regards cb2

steady (02/23/03; 07:50:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 98228)
the golden revolution
this revolution will not be televised
this revolution is dangerous.
this revelution is the revolution.
like in days of old where chivalry was the code,
will war honor be upheld?
with instant communication and direct lazer guided bombs can an instant be to long.
whose name will be glorified in song when our war is done and we are long gone.
this revoluton will not be televised.
this revolution will not be editorialized.
this revolution will take place in your mind
this revolution wil be of ideas.
this reveolution will matter.
especially when body parts start to get splattered, lives becoming tattered, nations shattterd and the elite safely away getting fater,
no thius revolution will not be telivised.
it will be cauterialized, neutralized, sterelized packaged to keep the population terroriized of.. of.. of.... terror!
we know the real bearer of teror comes from the night sky...
silent
programed to hit some coordinate on a grid
not even thinking there may lie a crib
or a bed
either way they are both dead!
the programer fred drives back home comfortably cause he is free. yes u see free from any moral delima as it was just two corordinate on a grid.
no! no way will this revolution be televised, for the prize is to ... to... to.. to.. to grand, to free no, no money can be made off the prize, no corporate sponshor ship, no promotions to take your money and promis a trip no none of that,
this prize is your mind, your reason, your energy, and your lablor, your capital. can they take it? will you let them take it?
no, no way will this be televised it cant be.
this revolution is the revolution now or never.
the concept, the understanding of what free is free from lies from those who do it with out batting an eye.
free from a fake cry to apeal to our emotions before they wave there money taking potions that make us poor as croations at the hight of the balkan insurrction
no this revelution will not be televised
this revolution will take place in your mind
in his mind
in her mind
in there mind
in our mind
in the worlds mind
in the universis mind
this revolution must be carried out!
this revolution is what evolution is about
growing, streching, testing, and eveolving!
failing fiat money to be flaing
so protect yourself and stop your wailing
for this revolution can be spread
this revolution must not be allowed to become dead
this revelotion will not be televised
this revelotion has begun
this revelution is being spread by word of mouth by the spoken word
the typed word
this revelotion will contine................

gold get u some and give it a silver lining!

slingshot (02/23/03; 07:02:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 98227)
A little bit of Gold for a barrel of Oil
If the oil producing countries demanded that payment is 1 gram of Gold for 1 barrel of oil, how long would it take to drain the existing gold reserve from that importing country?
Who would run out first? The oil or the Gold. The petromoney
could be the Dollar/Euro/Ruble as long as oil is paid in gold grams. The launch of the Gold Dinar could dictate which would be the current petrodollar. Imagine if gold is priced in Euro's instead of the US dollar? Is the US making a run on the oil fields to save the dollar and the reason why Europe is not playing the game?
Slingshot-------------------<>

Toolie (02/23/03; 06:10:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 98226)
Trimming the hedges
http://www.dailytelegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2003/02/23/cnash23.xml&sSheet=/money/2003/02/23/ixfrontcity.html
Snip;

Ashanti Goldfields, the London-listed mining group, is to raise about £50m in a rights issue within the next few weeks as part of a plan to stabilise its balance sheet. The company has been struggling to recover from huge losses caused by its policy of hedging the price of gold.



Jonah said he expected global economic uncertainty to help the price of gold remain strong and added that demand could be boosted by several Islamic countries that were exploring the introduction of a gold dinar as a trade currency to replace the US dollar.

Toolie; Seems the Dollar can't get a break.


silvercollector (02/23/03; 05:42:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 98225)
More baloney........
http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/breaking/breakingnewsarticle.asp?feed=OBR&Date=20030221&ID=2336627
...consumers are relieved CPI has not skyrocketed.....

Has anyone told this clown that PPI and CPI do not march in lockstep?

Anyone with a theory on the lag time of CPI (against PPI)?

Topaz (02/23/03; 03:27:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 98224)
Conspiracy theories.
If someone or group had the audacity to pull off an actual conspiracy the likes of which we are continually being subjected to nowadays, don't you-all think that as part of the actual "conspiracy" it would also be prudent to engineer a "shadow-conspiracy" to deflect the attention from the actual conspiracy?
That's what I'd be doing!

No slight on GATA intended.

Mr Gresham (02/23/03; 02:52:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 98223)
Invisible Hand
But of course, part of the job of an ambitious young (or old) reporter these days would be to sit up nights in his p.j.'s cruising websites about far-out topics to steer his investigations in fertile directions. I mean, these posters have done investigative journalism quality research for you already, provided the links, outlined the story, asked the questions.

And in the morning, he can actually CALL the Famous Names, with his newspaper's name behind him. And create the story -- Fresh! -- from his own research. Never mention the wacky webbers, of course.

Not really downing it -- just the reality of the world today. I'd be doing it just about the same (but I would sign on anonymously at a site or two... but then, what would I say? Hmmmm... probably just listen.)

What I really want them to go after is the "little bit of gold" for each barrel of oil POO-control dollar-saving story of the 80s and 90s told by Another and FOA. It's right here on our site! Why doesn't anyone chase it?

You could stay in your p.j.'s for life, Mr Wood-stein, just on the film rights alone...(I mean, it even STARTS with Nixon, didn't Ollie Stone do one on him???) A Greider-Stone-Murphy production?


Mr Gresham (02/23/03; 02:28:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 98222)
ge
http://www.observer.co.uk/contacts/page/0,7646,573067,00.html
Faisal Islam seems a little young at 25 to be our esteemed TG (I know you were kidding) but he seems a quick study on matters close to our pursuits these years past. Maybe he's a one to send IN QUEST of our mystery mentors, but then, Internet phenomena (except virus attacks) are not yet news items on their own, so our education is still an event taking place in the shadows. I'm sure there's a "Deep Throat" type character to be placed in Prometheus' screenplay, but it would be fun to think of anyone we even know by name in banking or oil who could even make it into an interesting revelation, if true.

Mr Gresham (02/23/03; 02:19:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 98221)
OK, it's Sunday morning...
<cree-e-e-ak> comes the soapbox out -- it's been a couple years...

I'm uncorking here, because I realize I just veered off from a post I wanted to make earlier this week, and that last one (below) woke it up again. I owe some people some representation, on the airwaves, with my words.

My question: (and I know people this has happened to) Why do young yahoos in various large, loud and screeching vehicles give the finger to (and throw heavy objects at) people standing publicly with signs opposing war? People who look very much like their own grandmothers?

Let's see if we can suss this out? See if it leads anywhere...

Whose water are they carrying? Who do they think will look the other way if they harm someone demonstrating for peace? (And they do think so. Open season, boys.) Do they pick on these people -- instead of some guy in a bar -- because they KNOW they won't fight you back? Bra-a-a-a-ve boys! Let's enlist -- we want YOU! (Yes, I know the good ones, too -- Duty, Honor, Country -- our kids are in school together.)

Does this speak well for the sum total of motives and reason for going into war? (I know it does not determine the argument against it either, but grant me some interrogatory powers here.)

Does war awaken the eternal question of bravery and cowardice in a man's breast? Which, unresolved, he flounders about in some very warped and stupid actions designed to get at that mystery in himself?

(Could this ever affect -- da-da da-da -- drumroll please -- The Men At The Top? "Never" "Never?" "Well, hardly ever...")

My question earlier this week was, Does going to war offer him the thrilling prospect of being permitted, no, ordered, to do what is all of his life forbidden within his own society, that is, to tear another's body to shreds? And in a grouping of his own fellows he feels just safe enough to hope he can get away with having that experience. (Milosevic recruited just enough pathological types to spearhead "ethnic cleansing" but I'm talking about basic youthful thrill-seeking going a bit beyond burning ants.)

Very few young men decide decisively at an early-enough age against approaching that experience. Most are passively acquiescent in being led to the front, hoping luck steers their experiences. Few are rationally convinced of what they are doing. But then, thought is not the action most desired by their commanders. Well enough, in some circumstances.

Very few really probe the borderlines of courage and cowardice in themselves. (Just saw the film "U-571". That one really sets the question in stark terms. You should not contemplate war in the abstract, without some time spent placing YOURSELF in the particular event.)

And those who stopped the diseased insanities of Hitler and Japan had their moral engines firing on all cylinders, thank God. Finding the courage to face death in combat is more than enough to deal with, without wondering if political hacks have steered you toward a fruitless, or wrongly-directed campaign.

When you see today's politicos (Perle, etc.) lined up in all their splendor, few of whom even LISTEN to the warnings of actual combat veterans, you wonder if the next war is really the fabled "Quest for Cojones"? Or the "I can out-Realpolitik Henry K" Awards.

My largest question is, disregarding the likely red herring of tarring this as "pacifist" quibbling: Is the national policy being made from the platform level of national interest it ought to be made from? Or are personal agendas, if not neuroses, being stirred into the mix?

And how are we to tell, and judge, and decide? (How are we to tell if our Prez is playing high-stakes Texas Hold'em for a chance to bluff a dictator out of his palaces without shootin' up the town? I'd judge by how smart I'd seen him play his other hands. I'd really love to see this one turn out to be some really smart infield Triple Play action, Powell to Rumsfeld to Bush. I'll watch, but not wait, for it.)

As I said before, I'd be listening, for the rattlesnake to rattle...

Call me a dinosaur, in my hopes. And I'll probably be gone when America reaps its bitterest rewards. (Hey, maybe it never will. It'll all work out...muddle through. Maybe.)

But I remember a book titled "Endless Enemies" (Jonathan Kwitny, I think it was by) and the title exemplifies what will happen to a blundering Empire, that goes low-riding through the neighborhood pre-empting potential rivals. People who weren't particularly animosity-driven before they got shot up.

(But then I see American and North Vietnamese vets getting together, putting war behind, bringing prosthetic limbs to crippled children -- humans! -- GO FIGURE! Nobility is squeezed out of some tragic disasters.)

Rather than America artfully shaping -- with its own SPECIAL GIFTS, gifts the world has acknowledged and admired longer than they might have == GOD! LET'S BELIEVE THEM FOR ONCE! and act like THEY still see us -- shaping the world to its own (and others') greater good. Low cost, high reward! Sheesh! Easy to see, says Mr Magoo(And I don't mean some NWO crapola -- just maybe following what those lowly buck privates Washington and Eisenhower counseled, when they weren't ducking incoming...)

Something about being a good neighbor, and cast your bread upon the waters, and do unto others as...

We are so far from that course... and now, internally, we are throwing away so much of our own remaining spirit.

(All right, I'll jump into my foxhole now...catch a few z's before they vector in on me. ;-)

ElGordo (02/23/03; 02:12:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 98220)
Columbia war to escalate?
US considers intervention in Colombia

Washington mulls tough response to kidnapping of CIA 'agents'

Martin McNamara in Caqueta, Colombia
Sunday February 23, 2003
The Observer

The United States is considering direct military intervention in Colombia for the first time following the murder of an American and the kidnapping of three others, all suspected CIA agents.

The US embassy in Colombia has recommended Washington make a 'major response' to the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (Farc) rebels responsible, and American officials have confirmed that military action is being considered to recover the men from the dense jungles of the southern province of Caqueta.

The Invisible Hand (02/23/03; 01:54:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 98219)
More FOA newspaper articles

ge (02/23/03; 01:24:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 98217)
The Observer article - When will we buy oil in euros?
http://www.observer.co.uk/business/story/0%2C6903%2C900867%2C00.html
FOA writing newspaper articles?

The Invisible Hand (2/15/03; 17:06:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 97713)
Iraq's oil exports paid in euros since 2001
http://www.observer.co.uk/business/story/0,6903,896202,00.html
Iraq nets handsome profit by dumping dollar for euro

The Invisible Hand (02/08/03; 17:16:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 97138)
Don't know what the article says, liked the title
http://www.observer.co.uk/business/story/0,6903,891682,00.html
Return to an old standard?

ElGordo (02/23/03; 01:26:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 98218)
Deficit Time Bomb
http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?guid=%7B348DC032%2DCDFB%2D4D52%2DB738%2DAF4741791A8F%7D&siteid=mktw
Deficit shocker #1

The $304 billion excludes the deficits of agencies that are guaranteed, backed or sponsored by the U.S. government. If you include these, you'll find that the real federal deficit is now over $800 billion, even before adding the cost of the Iraq war and any other new outlays.

Want proof? Check Table F.4 of the Federal Reserve's Flow of Funds, which shows that the government raised new money at an average annual rate of $810 billion for deficit financing in the first three quarters of 2002. The third line of the Fed's table, "U.S. Government securities," even shows the government was borrowing at the annual rate of over $1 trillion in the second quarter of last year.

Deficit shocker #2

The $304 billion deficit Mr. Bush has proposed does not include one dime for the upcoming war in Iraq, which will cost anywhere from $50 billion to $200 billion, according to government and private estimates.

Deficit shocker #3

The Bush budget includes nothing to account for proposed tax changes that are expected to cost $500 billion over the next 10 years.

Deficit shocker #4

The Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC) announced in late January that its $7 billion surplus of year-end 2001 has now turned into a $3.6 billion deficit at year-end 2002 -- a staggering loss of $10.6 billion in 12 months. In addition, the Director of the PBGC estimates that the pension funds it insures are under funded to the tune of about $300 billion. That implies a new infusion of federal funds into the PBGC and more red ink in the federal budget.



ge (02/23/03; 01:24:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 98217)
The Observer article - When will we buy oil in euros?
http://www.observer.co.uk/business/story/0%2C6903%2C900867%2C00.html
FOA writing newspaper articles?

Black Blade (02/23/03; 01:19:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 98216)
Brown's gold sell-off leads to £850m loss
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/story.jsp?story=380847

Snippit:

Gordon Brown's gamble in selling off part of Britain's gold reserve has cost the country almost £1bn, according to the latest figures. Conservatives are calling for Mr Brown to be held to account for his "bad housekeeping". The Tory MP Cheryl Gillan said: "I don't know why 40 per cent of our gold was invested back into euros because it is an untried, untested currency."

Black Blade: Gordie's bungling of the Gold auction just won't die.



Mr Gresham (02/23/03; 01:11:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 98215)
That's why God gave rattlesnakes rattles...
...so you could listen for them!

Some words from a writer on chemtrails (No, I don't know anything about them), Julian Penrod, that could apply to dealing with just about any "official story vs. conspiracy theory" jawing back and forth. Echoing precisely my thoughts I've never gotten down in words. (Hint: It's all in the ATTITUDE!)

"If conspiracy theories really were untrue, those who subscribed to them would be deluding themselves. They would be genuinely wasting their time. That is a tragedy, and would be approached as a tragedy, by those with genuine honor and the kind of concern and regard for others that would be consistent with telling them the truth. The arrogance and disregard to be seen among the conspiracy theory debunkers is that to be found in those incapable of the truth, or of any display of honor or decency. Their very malignance proclaims their assertions utterly untrustworthy and specious.

"There is every reason to believe, indeed, that those who call themselves debunkers are, in fact, quisling shills for government, trying to keep the truth from the people. They willingly admit to being considered that by many conspiracy theory examiners, and just as quickly - and without proof - dismiss the accusation, but it seems very near the truth, if not the truth itself.

"And this demonstrated malevolence of character, more so than much else, pronounces conspiracy theories far from unreliable; indeed, anything but unproved, or disproved. "

G: What a great concept, eh? Listen for the _honorable_ voice. Recall the retort to McCarthy "Have you no shame, sir?" And as Chris Powell said earlier today (approximately), be glad there is someone still _willing_ to DO something in these tranquilized times.

The amazing thing for me is that, right or wrong, there IS a GATA, that there are people willing to BE a GATA! Talk about a non-profit cause!

This to me is Honor. I will probe for accuracy later, as I need to. But I will first attempt to act honorably, and place myself in honorable company. If I am deceived, or make mistakes, at least they will be honorable mistakes, and I will not hereafter be ashamed of my own conduct. (I will attempt to keep observing, and learning, and not immerse myself in complacency and smugness...)

There are few areas of our lives where we may aspire to such a clear standard. And very cheaply, too (No sitting in broiling convention halls through a Philadelphia summer.) A few moments at a keyboard through our phone lines to the Internet...

(And yes, I am aware that Conscience rarely has had so cheap a price upon it. This may be only the early, easy part. I will hope to pass through the other parts as wisely as I may.)



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