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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 2/23/2002
All times are U.S. Mountain Time
(Yesterday's Discussion.)
ji
(02/23/02; 22:46:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 70674)
barnacle bill re: Greenspan quote
http://www.goldensextant.com/commentary9.html
Responding to a question by Congressman Ron Paul (Rep., Tex.), Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan spoke to the subject of the nation's money in his Humphrey-Hawkins testimony on February 17, 2000:
By definition, all prices are indeed the "ratio of an exchange of a good for money." And what we seek is what that is. Our problem is we used M-1 at one point as the proxy of money, and it turned out to be a very difficult indicator of any financial state. We then went to M-2 and had the similar problem. We have never done M-3 per se because it largely reflects the extent of expansion of the banking industry. And when in effect banks expand, in and of itself, it doesn't tell you terribly much about what real money is.
So our problem is not that we do not believe in sound money. We do. We very much believe that, if you have a debased currency, that you will have a debased economy. The difficulty is in defining what part of our liquidity structure is truly money. We have had trouble ferreting out proxies for that for a number of years. And the standard we employed is whether it gives us a good forward indicator of the direction of finance and the economy.
Regrettably, none of those which we have been able to develop, including MZM -- has done that. That does not mean that we think that money is irrelevant. It means we think our measures of money have been inadequate. And, as a consequence of that, we, as I have mentioned previously, have downgraded the use of the monetary aggregates for monetary policy purposes, until we are able to find a more stable proxy for what we believe is the underlying money in the economy.
Question by Dr. Paul: "So it's hard to manage something you can't define?"
Answer by Mr. Greenspan: "It is not possible to manage something you can't define."
John Doe
(02/23/02; 20:45:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 70673)
@Kludge
"Why are the gold conspirators maintaining gold at the same relative value that it's held for 2000+ years? Is this part of the logic of their plan? After all, no one would suspect anything was "wrong" if nothing had changed, right? How better to hide their manipulation than to keep things just as they have always been."
Hi Kludge. One is perhaps best served by viewing on-going monetary processes in future terms. The game is exactly that, to keep things "just as they have always been", specifically in order to first deny and then delay what "things are going to be."
An intelligent person may well ask, how can one tell the difference between the absence of manipulation and a manipulation that does a thorough job in appearing not to exist? The short answer is monetary history provides the basis for an automatic assumption of eventual manipulation for this class of monetary regime. The longer answer is, seek and you shall find. There are more than a few interesting clues about that are characteristic of past preludes to devaluation.
USAGOLD
(02/23/02; 20:14:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 70672)
Trapper. . .
http://www.usagold.com/cpm/hoppe.html
You raise some interesting questions. Let me try to get you on the right track.
1. Gold ownership in the United States is a privilege not a right as Rep. Ron Paul has asserted the result of his own experience in trying to get gold-owner favorable legislation through the Congress. No matter what you think is right, or what you think is moral, ethical or legal, that is the reality that we must deal with. What you do politically to alter that is your business, but where the rubber meets the road is how you design your gold portfolio in the first place to maximize your ability to hold on to the gold you purchase.
2. The concept of ownership of pre-1933 gold coins as the safest form of gold ownership with respect to the current law is borne of much legal research and legal precedent, but it is not a guarantee that you will be able to keep your gold if you own it in this form. However, it offers the best odds that you will be able to retain your gold in the event of a call-in. From 1933 when gold was criminalized and 1975 when it was re-legalized, gold owners could own and trade in pre-1933 gold coins like there was never a confiscation in the first place. You just had to know and understand this loophole in the law. I encourage you to go to the link above and request "You Can Survive a Potential Gold Confiscation." All the reasoning is there in detail along with the legal precedent (as Appendices) required for you to understand why moving in this direction may be your saving grace. This is not a casual report the basis of which we pulled out of thin air. It is built on the work of intellectuals and gold advocates who have gone before us and laid some very important foundational work -- including Donald Hoppe and H.M. Holzer, Ayn Rand's attorney.
3. The Treasury Department will not come to your door knock on it and demand your gold. They will simply make it illegal to trade in it and that's all they need to do. When Roosevelt put the kabosh on gold, all he was concerned about was bullion because he feared huge stores of money leaving the imploding banking system for gold. (Consider how the Argentinian government reacted similarly in their recent financial meltdown). The U.S. government let the pre-1933 coins go because they did not pose a threat to the currency controls the Roosevelt administration was imposing. These are serious considerations that every gold owner need understand.
4. You do not have to pay exorbitant premiums to get into this kind of material. Some think you have to buy exotic coins with a Grand Canyon between the metal value and what you pay. That simply is not true and we can guide through this aspect of the process. Please call George Cooper or Marie Ballard who are well versed in these matters.
5. As for Canadian, British and European laws at the time, we do not know at this time, but we are hoping at some point in time gaining some knowledge in that respect as our clientele grows in those countries. I believe that the Nazi government in Germany confiscated gold, but I don't know the details, just the Hitler quote that "anyone who deals in gold should be marched off to the camps" or some such nonsense. Let me just say this: For the premium you would now pay for pre-1933 gold coins at a time when the gold price is artificially maintained at historically low levels, it is a small price to pay for the peace of mind. When gold moves as most of us think it will, that premium will be obliterated and you will be glad you've done everything you can to protect your holdings. Believe it!
There is much more I could say on this account, but I'll leave at this for now. The ill-founded and unfair ties that the U.S. State Department recently made between gold and terrorism were a warning shot across the bow for some. It reminded us all how easy it would be for an unscrupulous government to mount an attack on gold based upon erroneous presumptions. Their real goal would be to limit its dissemination among the population. These are important discussions now being entered into at this forum. I only hope to provide some foundational thinking. Be disciplined, my friends. Consider your alternatives as best case scenarios not absolutes. There are no real guarantees as most of you understand. One just does the best they can under the circumstances and hopes for the best. Pre-1933 world gold coins fit those criteria. I don't speak about this often publicly. This is the sort of thing I share with our clientele normally in private. My best to you, Trapper. I understand your concerns.
Canuck
(02/23/02; 19:47:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 70671)
Snip of an article I sent to sister
"If you think the world will solve wars, energy depletion, health issues, corrupt politics, malignant accounting, horrific demographics statistics, crooked government, bought financial institutions, political instability and massively indebted countries SIMULTANEOUSLY on or before the year 2006, then don't buy gold."
Trapper
(02/23/02; 19:23:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 70670)
Gold confiscation
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_02/smithf022502.html
This is a good link as it provides the law use to call in all the gold from the people. I have somewhat of a problem as to claims that pre 1933 gold will be exempt. Just what gold coins were to be turned in if the call to do so was in 1933? Perhaps ALL PRE 1933 Coins! In 1933 there were no 1934 coins ( or '86, '99 '02 etc.)to turn in. The only coins that were called in were pre'33 coins. So here is my question can anyone from Canada tell me if you had the same call of gold. Next can a US citizen get a bank box in Canada? Folks these bankers and politicos are not fools, they have way more info on the collapse that we do.Anyone belive we are the only ones who know about JPM positions. The same as last time('29-'33). Why is Buffet's silver out of the US? Any ideas on protecting our gold will be recieved with gratitude. I still say we need a pre-emptive law asserting our rights to gold and silver. Live small.
RJ
Max Rabbitz
(02/23/02; 17:48:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 70669)
Sir Kludge and the True Gold Value
http://www.ancientcoinmarket.com/ds/worth/1.html
A gold aureus of Marcus Aurelius (remember the movie Gladiator) was worth 25 silver denari and about one months pay of a Roman Legionary soldier. A gold aureus was about a quarter an ounce of gold. At this valuation how long would the current gold price pay a modern soldier?
The argument over the historical value of gold misses the point. I am reminded of the remark make by Catherine Austin Fitts to a statement made from the audience during the question period of the recent GATA Washington Conference (C-span). The person claimed the price of gold could not be manipulated because the price had not gone up relative to the 1950's when it was $35 an ounce, and inflation is such as such since then. I thought it obvious the gold price was controlled (set) by the U.S. Treasury in the 1950's. But Ms. Fitts didn't want to spend time to argue these points. She in essence said it's pointless to argue the real value of gold when the only way to know is to have a free market.
GATA has shown the market is rigged. Allen Greenspan himself has said so. Surely even Sir Occam and his razor would have caught on by now!
Best Wishes and read the GATA findings.
Max
TownCrier
(2/23/02; 16:20:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 70668)
Photographer Kochaniec back behind the lens.
http://www.usagold.com/gildedopinion/Jensen/20020218.html
"To win a Pulitzer Prize, traditionally one must elevate his or her journalism to a level where the work might alter people's perceptions to such an extent that the way is paved for change. When we ran the first installment of Holger Jensen's MidEast series, we were criticized in private e-mails by those supporting the Palestinians. Later when the second and third segments appeared, we were likewise criticized by those supporting the Israeli position. The strong reactions from both sides tell me that Mr. Jensen is doing his job. Personally I believe that this is the kind of material both in the written word and the photography that comprises prize-winning journalism.
"It is not our function to present a solution to the Middle East problem -- and I doubt that Mr. Jensen harbors any illusions on that scale either. At the same time, I do not think I would be stepping out on the limb to say that he hopes, as we do, that the presentation of this information -- a glimpse at the human drama involved -- might provide the impetus for a solution. This is something the world should see. If you think my reaction a little stronger than it needs to be I invite you to take a look at the faces of the children in the photo accompanying the main article. The remainder of the article and supporting photography are equally compelling." --MK
---
And of course, the economic relevance of all this is found in the nature of our global economy -- like the ripples from a pebble cast into still waters, disturbances half-a-world-away can impact you and your financial security, too.
goldquest
(2/23/02; 16:18:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 70667)
Sorry!
http://www.the-privateer.com/greenspan.html
Try this one.
goldquest
(2/23/02; 16:14:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 70666)
Another Link
http://www.the-privateer.com/greespan.html
to help you save time.
goldquest
(2/23/02; 16:05:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 70665)
@barnacle bill and HopeingII
http://www.federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/speeches/2002/default.htm
Greenspan speeches and quotes can be found at this link.
A Canadian
(2/23/02; 15:10:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 70664)
@ KLUDGE
Should have read both your posts..... ROMAN ARMY BOOTS? what the?....GOLD IS THE ONLY &*^%ING THING THAT SURVIVED THE LAST 2000 yrs!!!!!
Did you buy land in Italy 2000 yrs ago? sorry about the invaders; you no longer have title. How about a nice little franchise? Swords are Us ? Sorry , no longer in business. Termites ate the chariot, slaves died of STD's', livestock was eaten during drought, Thank GOD your father had the foresight to accumulate some physical because that, my friend, STILL HAS VALUE!
slingshot
(2/23/02; 14:56:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 70663)
Greenspans Miscalculation
Selling of the Gold
Looking back at all that has happen to gold, It is my opinion that Greenspan and the CB's fatally miscalculated the assumption that Gold was dead. In order for their perpetration of the fiat money they had to pronounce gold dead, verbaly or physcologicly. Their dumping of gold on the market did indeed surpress the price of gold and making it appear gold was a poor investment/insurance only to be met headon by scores of battle hardened goldbugs and the new goldbug who remembers the spike of $850.00. Are they now just minting bullion coins assuming that if they are available to the general public, that the public will not buy them? If that was their intention, they are truly in big trouble. I see gold being brought. The same goes for silver. Should there be a undercurrent of gold moving into private hands, I hope the bankers can not see it. When gold finnally is set free may this undercurrent of gold purchasing hit them in the head like a sucker punch. The bankers are now the frog in the pail of water and each time we buy an ounce we turn the heat up a little more till we cook them. Frog legs anyone? When are they going to sell some more and bring the price of gold down again? THis German banker did me a favor.
Fe Fi Fo Thumb
I smell banker gold,and I want some. (MORE)
Slingshot
barnacle bill
(2/23/02; 14:55:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 70662)
HopeingII Msg#70655
Greenspan quotes
In addition to the 2 quotes you are looking for; there is another one I am looking for. That is when, during Congressional testimony, Greenspan could not define what a dollar is. The exchange went something like:
Questioner- So it is difficult to manage something you can not define?
Greenspan- It is impossible to manage something you can not define.
The discussion dealt with the dollar. If you stumble across it, please post.
A Canadian
(2/23/02; 14:32:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 70661)
@ KLUDGE
All "Investment" vehicles be it stock, land or GOLD are subject to ups and downs ; all sorts of trends + situations dictating eventual outcomes.
What separates the winners from losers is TIMING; dictating profit or loss, negative or positive income.
It is illogical to speak of a 2000 year trend (which would result in 0 or 1,000,000 per ounce , take your pick.)
If one has done their economic homework (as opposed to picking ponies from the sportspage) it is a no brainer to determine what the CURRENT TIMING is and where the chips must be laid.
The store of wealth pill is very difficult to swallow. The best way to explain is by answering your question: NO I WILL NOT TRADE IT FOR FIAT (only a fool relinquishes his wealth).
nickel62
(02/23/02; 13:49:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 70660)
Sir Kludge,
I am so glad you showed up. We most likly haven't had the benefit of your profound insights these last few years and needed such a compelling analysis to enlighten us all. Thanks
Trapper
(02/23/02; 12:23:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 70659)
Sir Kludge
Part of what you say is correct, the hiding in plain sight for sure. In the exact letter there is no conspiracy. Did anyone conspire to violate the US Constitution depriving us of a gold and silver money? No they just ignored it. Did Greenspin hide the fact that there would be plenty of gold to all who wish to short it? No he told us in public. Did Clinton after losing in congress for funds to bail out Mexico go ahead and bail them out anyway? Yes he just used the ES Fund to get the money. Conspiracy not by definition, legal not sure buy GATA might find out. As to the goverment minting gold for us to have, I'm not so sure. One of the things discussed often here is if they just let us use the gold until they want it back and presto, another goverment decree and you must turn it back in. All of this, and more is right out there for us find if we look. We (govt and the shadow govt) are your leaders we do as we wish we don't care about the laws or that damn constitution of yours set down shut up. Live small.
RJ
sourdough
(02/23/02; 12:17:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 70658)
cost of loss
continued
I would recommend they use the coming gold price explosion to try and create spending wealth in the hands of the Japanese consumer. Japan is the biggest economic problem facing the world. The problem is people have money but are scared to spend it. If they could be enticed to spend, the economy would get back on its feet. Profits will be made if your derivatives are bet on a domestic economic recovery.
Convince the Japanese people to purchase gold, force their savings out of the banks,make your government stumble, appear confused, "appear" to be doing nothing, while all the time directing the consumer to gold.
The rest of the world is kept confused, with threats of cental bank sales, etc. Fine tune the yen/u.s. dollar/euro/ and gold to the price most acceptable to get the Japanese to buy. The rest of the Asian business press is not recommending gold, why?, Japan is the target.
The world economy is one big entity. The Japanese subsidiary is in trouble. The board has decided to use gold to get Japan profitable again.
Japan cannot re arm and make war to fix their economy. That is why it cannot snap back. Military spending cannot be used as in u.s.
If you as a consumer/investor buy a 1 kg bar of gold at 300 an ounce, which then rises to a value of 1000 an ounce, are you not going to spend some of your other savings?
Consumer led recovery!
Place your bets on gold and a Japanese recovery.
The right derivitives and these same people who(may) would lose on gold will win on the effect of a Japanese gold engineered recovery. So long yen?, short dollar?
escapethematrix
(02/23/02; 11:52:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 70657)
The Smoke and Mirror economy
From Lemetropole Cafe
The following snippets are taken from an excellent 3 piece article from The "Short Sellers" Nightmare by a Mr.
Thomas Q. Nichols. It gives great insight into what is going on today....Some of it will sound very familiar to we "Hikers of the Trail" .....Enjoy, and a good weekend to all.
Snip:
The title of this treatise bears special significance to the fore knowledge of those in Washington. A "short-seller" is of course a party who chooses to sell a futures contract in anticipation that the price of the underlying commodity will decrease. How many traders are aware of the Statutory provisions in the United States Code that, in certain conditions, the Government can raise commodity prices virtually overnight, requiring traders to pay, as in the case of some grains, a margin call of $29,000 per contract. These are not SEC regulations that can be manipulated, but rather Federal Statutes that can only be addressed by Congress. The Statute is not improper; the system that masks reality and requires the Statute is the problem.
The GATA, Gold Anti-Trust Action group, and their loyal army have done the most work in bringing these revelations to the light of day. Yet the public still does not see the picture, or more pointedly, the establishment media does not want to pursue these facts and make them front page headlines. The gold army is 'at the door' of exposing the largest quagmire to ever hit the banking industry. We say quagmire because their practices and methods are calculated and deliberately orchestrated to enslave humanity for global objectives.
In retrospect, the Raw Material Council's research surrounding the events of 1929 revealed that the depression of 1929 was attributed to the Stock Market Crash, but that was the finale of the show, not the opening act. The opening act was a reduction in raw material prices, starting in 1925 and culminating in 1929. The reduction in raw material prices can be attributed to our financier's desertion of "People's Capitalism" in search of what they thought were higher profits in other lands.
Doesn't NAFA, WTO, fast-tract trade authority and free trade all sound like failed experiments we tried before? It appears our national leaders are implementing trading procedures identical to those of the 1920's, and the results will be much more severe.
When we look at money as a "medium of exchange" we get a clearer picture of the past, present and future. Recently Alan Greenspan was touting the strength of the dollar versus the Euro and Europeans and made similar characterizations about their medium of exchange in relation to ours. The representations are misplaced. The two Continents could just as well have been exclaiming the supremacy of the Fahrenheit temperature scale versus the Centigrade scale and vice versa. Just because the temperature reading, as measured by the respective scales, goes up or down, it does not mean the measuring device is nearing destruction, but rather, the "environment" upon which the readings are taken is changing
Unfortunately, institutional arrangements-- trading houses, banks, government itself-- have been used not to assure par exchange, but to enhance predatory business profits, and, in the case of government, social programs are implemented to keep the worst effects of predatory profits from showing. That is why we have institutionalized poverty, low cost housing, relief checks, Medicare/Medicaid, food stamps, and government as the employer of last resort." (From "Parity, the Key to Prosperity Unlimited", by Charles Walters Jr.)
Typically when producers complain of low commodity prices they are met with the deafening excuses of "supply and demand". The gold and silver bulls have proven beyond doubt that demand for these two metals has outpaced supply for at least a decade, and yet gold and silver prices do not rise. The GATA group has proven that the reason for this anomaly is price manipulation made possible with "paper" gold and silver. When true supply and demand forces attempt to take prices higher, the cartel steps in to sell "paper" gold and silver to depress the price. The cartel has had a good teacher because the same operation has been working magnificently for the grain trade for 40 years. In the agricultural sector, grain traders sell "paper
Bretton Woods was scrapped in 1971 because those foreigners who understood our mischievous economic policies would have eliminated our gold reserves. (Foreigners could trade their commodities for undervalued, in terms of US dollars, gold). Conversely, the market price of wheat decreased in price by about 10 cents per bushel over those same 26 years. The economic conditions of the early 1970's are very similar to today, except today's distortions are significantly and dynamically greater.
Those of us who remember the Energy Czars under the Administrations of the 1970's, and their gas rationing and allocation programs, certainly have a healthy sense of apprehension and skepticism for today's Office of Homeland Security. Today the world stage is set for exactly these types of events to re-occur, only on a proportionately much larger scale.
The gold cartel is artificially holding down the price of gold and inflating the currency at the same time. The inflation has not shown up (yet) because we export it, by purchasing cheap foreign manufactured goods and sending our dollars overseas. Those goods compete with domestically manufactured and produced goods, forcing American manufacturers to lower their prices until bankruptcy. This manufactured appearance of low inflation rates and stability invite foreign currency flows (our dollars returning home) into our Bond and Stock Markets, and while public attention is focused on the Wall Street circus, the Nation is being looted. There is a "head of steam" building behind the price of gold valued in U.S. dollars because these manipulators have distorted economies and monetary systems on such a clandestine scale. World wide, these globalistic policies have uprooted social and political establishments and their pleas for help fall on deaf ears, or worse, they are given more of the same poison. While we watch from afar as Argentina introduces a new currency, our thoughts should turn to our 30 trillion dollar debts and ask ourselves: How far away from a new currency are we? The gold cartel has their sights set much higher than simply the gold and silver markets.
sourdough
(02/23/02; 11:47:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 70656)
The loss cost
Has anyone ever come up with the number of U.S. dollars that would be required to get the gold market balanced.
We read ,305,320 etc. will panic the shorts, the hedgers, etc.
I see numbers for JP MORGAN derivitives.
I see mention of a rising gold price creating an abyss.
If central banks do not call in gold loans, but renew them into the future, perhaps at a higher lease rate, this buys time for the borrowers, such as J.P. MORGAN.
If Barrick will receive 365, they will still mine at a profit on those sales. They will sell the rest at spot for much higher prices.
How much money is it going to cost to get even?
Will they get even by 600?
If they are square at 600 and continue to go long, knowing in advance (cabal)gold will rise to 1000 or 2000. How much will they really lose?
How much will it cost to get even?
How much will they make going long?
Can they not still come out on top?
If the gold price cannot be held down, preparations "must" be underway to make profits on golds` rising price.
Investments in mining stocks, south african currency positions, etc.
It is also my thinking that the "cabal", knows gold has to go up, they cannot stop it from going up.Once this is accepted, they would focus on how to achieve the greatest benefit from an exploding gold price.
É
HopeingII
(2/23/02; 10:21:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 70655)
LOOKING FOR HELP
Would someone(s) be so kind as to help me out here.
I am looking for three infamous quotes.
Two from Greenspan.
1) the quote about CB's being ready to supply the market
should the price rise.
2) The one about Gold being the ultimate form of payment,
where he gave the example of the German's only being able to procur supplies with payment in Gold during WW II
I think it was.
3) The Eddie George quote about looking into the Abyss
after the Washington Agreement.
Thanks in advance, Don
Going out now, BBL
kludge
(2/23/02; 09:54:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 70654)
(No Subject)
invest - to put (money) in business, real estate, stocks, bonds, etc. for the purpose of obtaining income or profit.
preserve - to keep up; carry on; maintain
So, throughout history, has gold been a good "investment", or has it proved to be the best way of "preserving" wealth?
I didn't think I'd get a HOF nomination for that post, just trying to offer an alternate opinion on why the POG has fallen for so long, why it seems to have bottomed and is now trending up, and why it may go down again once FUD about the economy subsides.
If any look to gold as an investment, it just seems to me you're betting against a 2000 year trend. Sure it's purchasing power has spiked before for short periods, and I think it's beginning to again. Will you trade it for fiat if it does?
In my mind, 2k years of history is hard to refute - if you want to preserve your wealth NO MATTER WHAT MAY HAPPEN, buy gold.
nickel62
(02/23/02; 08:06:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 70653)
I agree, thanks for the comment.
I thought he was simply a boor. My mistake.
AU_Poor
(02/23/02; 07:57:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 70652)
msg#: 70644
I see the short-sellers have tired of preaching to the choir on another site. That site deteriorated, last I looked, into an unrecognizable mass of confusion.
This one spends a few pages telling us that gold is a terrible place to put your money, then tells us he's buying it, and recommends Centennial and our host.
@USAGOLD: Is this person buying from you in quantity? If so I withdraw my criticism. If not, let him return to preach to the choir.
Waverider
(02/23/02; 07:46:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 70651)
Banking crisis?
http://www.viewswire.com/index.asp?layout=display_article&doc_id=180300
Snippit:
"Is Japan headed for a banking crisis? The roll-back of government- sponsored deposit insurance, and a change in the way some bank assets are valued, could lead to a sharp outflow of funds at end-March, triggering a banking meltdown. Yet the Economist Intelligence Unit believes serious trouble can be averted. The government has the means and the motive to inject enough capital into the banking system to prevent the collapse of any of the major institutions. If a crisis is avoided, however, it will be at considerable cost to taxpayers, and to the reputation of the increasingly unpopular prime minister, Junichiro Koizumi."
The four major banks in Japan are simply "too big to fail".
Waverider: Yes, and so was the Titanic! Cheers.
Boilermaker
(2/23/02; 07:07:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 70650)
Andy Jackson on taxes, money & banking
http://www.theamericanpresidency.net/farewellaj.htm
Andy Jackson's farewell speech delivered 3/4/1837 puts some historical perspective on the issues we deal with on this forum. Andy was a controversial guy who drove the Cherokees into Oklahoma where they could find "a situation where we may well hope that they will share in the blessings of civilization and be saved from that degradation and destruction to which they were rapidly' hastening while they remained in the States....". He was arguably the first "commoner" to make president having been born into circumstances similar to Lincoln's but who became a wealthy plantation and slave owner.
snippet from farewell speech;
"In reviewing the conflicts which have taken place between different interests in the United States and the policy pursued since the adoption of our present form of Government, we find nothing that has produced such deep-seated evil as the course of legislation in relation to the currency. The Constitution of the United States unquestionably intended to secure to the people a circulating medium of gold and silver. But the establishment of a national bank by Congress, with the privilege of issuing paper money receivable in the payment of the public dues, and the unfortunate course of legislation in the several States upon the same subject, drove from general circulation the constitutional currency and substituted one of paper in its place.
It was not easy for men engaged in the ordinary pursuits of business, whose attention had not been particularly drawn to the subject, to foresee all the consequences of a currency exclusively of paper, and we ought not on that account to be surprised at the facility with which laws were obtained to carry into effect the paper system. Honest and even enlightened men are sometimes misled by the specious and plausible statements of the designing. But experience has now proved the mischiefs and dangers of a paper currency, and it rests with you to determine whether the proper remedy shall be applied. "
Comment;
Andy had it nailed 165 years ago. When will we ever learn.
Cheers and Happy Weekend
nickel62
(2/23/02; 06:10:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 70649)
My mistake!
I guess that should be Kludge not Klude. Sorry, didn't mean to be insulting by spelling your screen name incorrectly. Welcome. You will learn much in life if you listen.
nickel62
(2/23/02; 05:59:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 70648)
Klude, if that is who you really are.
Thanks for enlightening us with your insight. After thirty years in the investment business and three years reading here, it is good to know there is a simple solution to these things.
Black Blade
(2/23/02; 03:07:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 70647)
Daily Market Summary - Lance Lewis
http://www.dailymarketsummary.net/Today.htm
Snippit:
Oil rose 12 cents. The XOI rose 2 percent, and the OSX rose 2 percent. People are starting to watch Iraq fairly closely again. I'm not so sure a US attack is coming this soon, but it's a pretty good bet that President Bush spent the last few days testing the waters for his plans during his trip to Asia. Gold traded a little higher overnight but took a dive shortly after the New York open. By the close, the "little metal that could" managed to recoup most of its losses to end unchanged on the day. The HUI rose a touch.
Robert Champion de Crespigny, the founder and former chairman of Australia's Normandy Mining, made some comments at the Australian Mining Club last night. Citing low interest rates, volatile gold lease rates, as well as the erratic behavior of central banks, he proclaimed that the days of hedging gold are numbered. De Crespigny said, "I think we are going to see some blood in the streets sometime if people are in the business of being derivative miners." Word to the wise: make sure you know what a miner's hedge book looks like if you're going to buy their stock.
Black Blade: As I have been saying - The day of the hedger is over. It's a bad deal and many are going to go tits up. As De Crespigny said, "I think we are going to see some blood in the streets sometime if people are in the business of being derivative miners." I hear that - three names come to mind right away - Barrick, AngloGold, and Placer Dome.
Black Blade
(2/23/02; 02:43:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 70646)
J.P. Morgan Had Many Ties With Enron
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55054-2002Feb22.html
Snippit:
J.P. Morgan Chase & Co. was deeply involved in Enron Corp.'s finances, simultaneously investing in the company, buying Enron stock for funds it managed and recommending the energy company's stock to investors.
The bank's complex involvement with Enron was not unique. Citigroup, Merrill Lynch & Co., Credit Suisse First Boston Corp.and Morgan Stanley Dean Witter & Co. are among firms that had many-sided relationships with Enron, according to Enron's records and those of the other companies.
Congressional investigators and shareholders' attorneys are examining how big a role those Wall Street bankers may have played in Enron's rise and fall and the impact on investors. On Wednesday, an analyst from J.P. Morgan will join representatives from five other banks before the Senate Government Affairs Committee to answer questions about their ratings of Enron.
J.P. Morgan's Enron investments meant that the bank would benefit if the Houston company's stock price rose. Its purchases of Enron's stock and "strong buy" recommendations boosted share prices. At the time J.P. Morgan analysts recommended Enron stock, other bank officials knew that the energy company had major off-balance-sheet debts. The bank also was a major investor in one of Enron's largest outside partnerships, LJM.
Black Blade: After looking over my tea leaves and turning over some tarot cards, I see many lawsuits in JP Morgan's future. Ditto for Citigroup, Merrill Lynch & Co., Credit Suisse First Boston Corp.and Morgan Stanley Dean Witter & Co. "Oh what a tangled web we weave ……."
Black Blade
(2/23/02; 02:34:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 70645)
J.P. Morgan Debt Default Insurance More Than Doubles
http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?ptitle=Top%20Financial%20News&s1=blk&tp=ad_topright_topfin&T=markets_bfgcgi_content99.ht&s2=ad_right1_topfin&bt=ad_position1_topfin&middle=ad_frame2_topfin&s=APHanYxUXSi5QLiBN
Snippit:
New York, Feb. 22 (Bloomberg) -- J.P. Morgan Chase & Co., the second-largest U.S. bank, has suddenly become a growing risk for bond investors.
The cost of insuring J.P. Morgan Chase's $43 billion of notes and bonds against default more than doubled in the past month. Some investors are concerned the bank holding company's credit rating may be lowered because of $3.8 billion in potential losses related to Enron Corp., Global Crossing Ltd., Kmart Corp. and Argentina that analysts estimate the bank made.
``The exposure they have to some of these risky companies is larger than the market would like to see,'' said Michael Pohly, executive director of credit derivatives for Morgan Stanley Dean Witter & Co., which matches buyers and sellers for the insurance.
Black Blade: It appears that debt default may be in JP Morgan Chase's future. At least the insurance companies see significant risk in the viability of JPMC. Perhaps that partially explains the drop in share price, not to mention an investigation into "off the books" deals with bankrupt Enron. Maybe JPMC isn't too big to fail.
kludge
(2/23/02; 01:49:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 70644)
Occam's Razor
Why are the gold conspirators maintaining gold at the same relative value that it's held for 2000+ years? Is this part of the logic of their plan? After all, no one would suspect anything was "wrong" if nothing had changed, right? How better to hide their manipulation than to keep things just as they have always been.
It may be this status quo that allows them to hide the "deal" with the oil states from the masses (except us of course!). The conspirators must wield some pretty hefty influence to keep all the OPEC nations quiet about the deal for so long. Any idea when the oil states will decide they have enough gold and oil to rule the world and play their cards (since they always stick together with never any dissention)? I'm puzzled why Saddam didn't blow the whistle considering a decade of sanctions, though. The Bush's probably persueded him to keep quiet, their families go way back - just like the Reagans' and the Khaddafis'. Even more puzzling is that Israel is keeping quiet on the oil for gold conspiracy, knowing the power that the Arab/Muslim states will wield in the future. Of course, maybe the conspirators have managed to hide the truth from the Israeli's, which everyone knows have one of the worst intelligence agencies in the world. Or maybe they just bought off Sharon to sell out his people. I wouldn't doubt he sold out, he's been anti-war/pro-Arab his whole life.
So... how many conspirators have been involved in this collusion through the years? 1,000? Certainly more, I would suspect. Incoming and outgoing high ranking Gov't officials around the world, rich private interests, royal families, bullion bank CEO's/COO's and some traders, and probably a close circle of some friends and family. Certainly some in military intelligence are aware also, as lowly enlisteds around the world collect and decrypt COMINT and SIGINT from foreign countries - particularly foreign gov't communications. How are they able to keep this quiet with so many people "in on the secret" do you suppose? I guess it's easy to explain, who would risk their life just to get rich? Probably never happen. I guess none of the cablist's are "sleep-talkers" with angry ex-spouses either.
Their timing is also to be admired! Let the gold price fall while the DOW rises (over two decades!), then allow it to bottom and slowly rise as the markets continue to descend over the past year or so. They are making it seem like demand for gold is slowly increasing, as if investors are getting dis-illusioned with the stock market's losses and finally turning to gold in small numbers. Hiding in plain sight, a masterful plan!
How shrewd the minting of bullion coins by the governments too, making physical gold available to any that want it at "Cabal Club" prices, this also allows the masses to have some minor amount of control over physical supply and demand - no doubt that was at the suggestion of the Strategic Psychological Tactics Division of the cabal, "give them what they want, and they won't want it anymore"? Don't laugh, did you think that a team of top-notch psychologists WEREN'T on the cabal payroll? No one even attempts a conspiracy without a set nowadays.
But still, it's apparent that no one here has actually stumbled on the real proof yet, else they likely wouldn't be heard from anymore. In fact, it's conceivable that some of the old-timers here have been "silenced" and replaced by imposters, minions of the cabal, because they got too close to putting it all together. This IS a secret worth a death or two, yes?
By the way, thanks for the replies to my prior post Sir Mr. Gresham and Sir nickel62, if that's who you really are...
I'm surprised our host has been allowed to continue to operate. I would have thought the IRS or the FBI would have forced them out of business by now with malicious, vicious audits, and/or unfounded charges on any number of interstate commerce laws due to their sponsoring of this forum.
It's dizzying when one consider's the complexity of this operation, it crosses borders, philosophies, and religions. It requires the cooperation of age-old adversaries. To me it seems, almost?, unbelievable.
(HEY!?! Just noticed one of my slippers is missing. Could be the dog stole it, could be that aliens abducted it. 50-50 chance either way, right? :-)
++++++++++++OK, playful sarcasm aside now.++++++++++++
Just trying to make the point that perhaps the simplest theory that fits the facts is the correct one (hence the subject line). So here's a simple theory:
The US stock market has traded significantly higher since the 80's, while gold has significantly fallen. This could simply be due to a number of easily reasoned factors; the cold-war ending, 401k's pumping in $$, Reaganomics, then greater fiscal discipline, full employment, tame inflation, Gulf War victory, easy credit, and any of the other good news for investors from the 80's and 90's.
When some FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) does creep in from terrorism, war, bankruptcies, unemployment rising, etc., safe haven plays rise until the FUD factor subsides. In a fast moving market (how many shares traded this week?), people want to be "in the game" and not miss out on the next big bull run. So FUD gives way to greed, then the safe haven is sold and invested in higher-risk, higher-reward securities.
Gold didn't rise much, and it doesn't fall much on the pullouts. It's just slowly eaten away at due to "better" investments that return a huge profit in a rapidly rising securities market that lasts two decades. Why doesn't it spike higher on bad news? Maybe because many have forgotten it's value and move to money market funds or bonds instead, or maybe because the even riskier, greedier people short gold on any price spikes - selling before the "new bears" decide to turn bullish again. Maybe gold never bottomed before because bonds and savings interest rates were still attractive. Maybe a combination of all these. It's not an exciting or complex theory, and it's certainly not original - but it's simple and fits the facts quite nicely I think.
I like gold, I own gold, I am acquiring more gold, and I suggest you do, too (preferably from our host). It PRESERVES YOUR WEALTH across generations. Know how much a pair of Roman Legion Army boots cost in 50 A.D. when bought with the gold coin of the time? About $62 after converting the gold it contained into US$ today. Certainly not what I'd call a good multi-millennia investment.
kludge
PS:Congrats also to Jlfletc and Boilermaker!!! If that's who you really are...
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