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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 9/23/2000
All times are U.S. Mountain Time
(Yesterday's Discussion.)
Trail Guide
(09/23/00; 23:12:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 37351)
Last post
Aristotle (09/23/00; 22:13:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 37347)
----do you see Alan Greenspan agreeing to "play ball" now for the greater global good after having been the beneficiary of many fixed innings? Or does he believe the dollar can yet be salvaged? Or does he have no choice in the matter but to put on a brave face against the inevitable (in which case, again, "playing ball" would seem the appropriate course of action)?-----------
-------------
Aristotle, I know he believes in America and all it stood for in the past. But who can fault him for his apathy with all that is going on around him? This nation is changing,,,,, has changed and will never again be the place he knew. How could his policies ever undo all the wrong our debt has brought and paid for and still pay off our debt?
As strong as the Federal Reserve's purpose is/was, we,,,, as a nation have tied their hands with our own doings. Blaming it on the banks and the Fed is a nice way out,,,,, but the fathers of this generation and this generation itself have built our undoing by believing the bookkeeping lies they
were told. A simple person knows we cannot spend ourselves rich, but then we do not think ourselves simple,,,,, do we?
Yes Aristotle, he will play ball now. Just to keep us out of harms way a while longer. No longer is the dollar system something to salvage, it's just become something to manage to a lesser end.
Thank you and everyone here for this time. As Another always said:
"We watch this new gold market together, yes?"
Yes!
Trail Guide
canamami
(09/23/00; 22:52:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 37350)
Final Points and Replies
Town Crier, re post #37309 ... it was good of you/CPM to provide the contest, and it is good that people of modest means will be able to build up a store of precious metal coins.
Re Gold Coins:
9. A modern gold coin at modern valuations would serve as a double hedge for "mild" goldbugs - a hedge against possible currency inflation (provided by gold content) and against possible gold demonetization (provided by the face value). Such a coin would perhaps be appealing to some who presently don't view gold coins as a hedge.
10. It is unlikely a later government would be able to seize circulating, working gold coins... they'd be too widely diffused, and unregistered.
Now, truly, goodbye all.
Trail Guide
(09/23/00; 22:37:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 37349)
Reply
Cavan Man (09/23/00; 21:40:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 37345)
TG
Do you recall your comment about the KRand and stating that because there was no currency value indicated on the coin, "they've already taken care of that"?
------------
Hello Cavan Man
Yes, that is part of the reason. They had to have "thought long and Hard" on that aspect because FreeGold was but a distant Thought then.
The other is the Legal Tender problem we also discussed. While I'm not concerned with official gold confiscation, the US and it's Australian / Canadian partners may call in all their Legal Tender in some form of currency exchange. Most of our modern Western gold is "Legal Tender"! . For this
reason alone, especially when things get rough one should have brought some of the old coins. K-Rands are better than local bullion but a better mix would include a bunch of the old fractional coins. Or at least begin building on them now.
But, as a further point:
I would not suggest to anyone that they wait for the Euro gold coin before buying gold. That would be some mistake, indeed! Gold will most likely be in the thousands before they come out. Even then, a limited manufacturing capacity may limit them to Euro Zone circulation for years. It may truly be a master stroke for MK to be operating in Europe. Looking down the road and thinking out loud,,,,,,,, CPM may be one of the few dealers that could offer these new items back into the US???? You never know how things will turn out.
Thanks for reading Cavan Man
TG
canamami
(09/23/00; 22:22:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 37348)
Various Replies and Gold Coins
This will be my last message for a week, which is sad due to the great posting activity this weekend.
Trail Guide, it is good to see you on a "posting frenzy" this illustrious weekend.
Stranger, re post #37303, thx for the kind words.
trurl, re post #37331, the US Supreme Court upheld Congress' outlawing of gold clauses in a 1935 decision. Congress restored gold clauses in 1977. This right has been emphasized in a series of cases involving the Troestel heirs in a case concerning a long-term commercial lease in Des Moines, Iowa. The heirs must now be paid in gold coins of a certain denomination, which helps remedy the gross underpayment they endured under the pre-Depression lease terms. I thank the Stranger for bringing this case and the underlying law to my attention.
MK, re post# 37310, I assume that you named me in the title because I advocated the minting of gold coins with the central banks' gold reserves, at current currency values, said coins to be actual "working" coins. Thx for remembering those posts, some of which must be over a year old.
Advantages of minting gold coins at somewhat current values - e.g., perhaps $Cdn500.00 per one ounce coin:
1. It is better that the CB's mint gold coins with their gold, rather than skewer the gold market with leasing or sales activity.
2. CB gold is monetary gold dating from when gold was the basis of the national currency, and sometimes procured by confiscation or government monopoly. Using such gold as currency accords with the monetary nature of such gold, rather than treating it as a commodity, thereby harming the existing commodity gold and gold mining industry, which arose in response to CB's NOT treating their gold as a commodity.
3. Rather than just whine at the CB's about their gold sale and leasing practices, the gold coinage option provides gold advocates with a useful suggestion to offer to those CB's that may not want to keep their gold.
4. Americans now have a legal right to use gold clauses in contracts. These clauses require that there be gold coins denominated in dollars, and the government should mint such coins to give effect to Americans' legal rights. Such clauses can be a good safeguard against inflation in long-term contracts, and are not dependent on government CPI figures like COLA clauses. Gold clauses are real and can be useful; just ask the Troestel heirs.
5. If government contracts contained gold clauses, there would be an incentive not to allow the currency to be debased relative to gold. Gold could thus indirectly check monetary growth, a task it did directly under the old gold standard.
6. Most young and middle-aged people no longer equate gold with money. This is true of young central bankers also, who have never used gold as money in their private lives and thus can see no reason why gold should be a reserve asset any more than oil or wheat. Gold coins used in the real world would recreate the association of gold with money, without which gold loses much of its value.
7. Gold's value was to great extent derived from its role as the basis of the national currencies. This was gold's "utility". Gold coins help recreate this role. Quaere how gold can be treated as a better form of wealth preservation than other hard assets if at some point it is not a form of transaction money or debt settlement?
8. A gold euro could be a useful tool. If indeed the Sharia law prescribes the use of precious metal money, and proscribes debt-created paper money, the gold euro could become the meeting point of the Western and Islamic commercial worlds. The Islamists could rationalize its use due to its gold content, and it could be a currency within the Islamic world. The gold content would give it staying power beyond the ECB's existence, and beyond Euroland's possible demise. Being denominated in euros at a realistic modern level, it could meet the accounting and taxation needs of the Europeans. A gold euro would appear to be focused on external use; internally, for example, a 500-euro coin (roughly one ounce gold) could crowd out a 500-euro paper note.
However, one caveat: Mundell is just a private academic, albeit a greatly respected one. This was just a suggestion by a private individual, so it's better not to get carried away.
Good bye all (this time I mean it!).
Aristotle
(09/23/00; 22:13:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 37347)
Hello right back at ya, Trail Guide
It strikes me as encouraging that a stranded soul may find a way to put a message in a bottle for reliable delivery to a specific ship cruising in the deep water.
Getting to the mainland---ahhh...now that is the REAL sign of success. How does one launch a message capable of reaching even the fine folks deep inland, say, Nebraska, that their dollars are closer to cornhusks while only Gold is suitable representation for the corn within? Over time, with letters written across the sky, you've shown the mission can be accomplished most adequately when people are inspired to THINK for themselves--with a little help from their friends.
But all of this public perception stuff aside (and left to the fullness of time), do you see Alan Greenspan agreeing to "play ball" now for the greater global good after having been the beneficiary of many fixed innings? Or does he believe the dollar can yet be salvaged? Or does he have no choice in the matter but to put on a brave face against the inevitable (in which case, again, "playing ball" would seem the appropriate course of action)?
Wealth. Get you some. It's never been easier. ---Aristotle
Trail Guide
(09/23/00; 22:12:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 37346)
Reply
PH in LA,
Well, I was just about to post your item. Had copied it from that day. You know, their fuel prices are changing faster than ours so some of that looks wrong. The oldest rates are OK and well before EMU, but overall,,,,,, over time the comparison is good.
But actually, PH,,, because the dollar has risen against the Euro Zone native currencies and the Euro itself, these rates indicate more of a recent uptrend in fuel costs for them (convert it back to Euros at today's rates). This is the only area where local costs have gone up in line with the dollar's appreciation. Yet, if the G-7 is forced to take the dollar back to Euro par, then their total basket will look very good compared to ours.
Their fuel prices are way higher than ours and always have been. I think you know this, your people are in Spain, no? On the surface, we must understand the uproar in Europe over fuel costs is mostly from exchange rate adjustments that are on top of rising dollar crude prices. If oil is settled
in Euros all this will change dramatically!
TG
Cavan Man
(09/23/00; 21:40:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 37345)
TG
Do you recall your comment about the KRand and stating that because there was no currency value indicated on the coin, "they've already taken care of that"?
Trail Guide
(09/23/00; 21:33:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 37344)
Reply
Bascom Toadvine (09/20/00; 11:23:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 37040)
Trail Guide
I think the western bankers left the yellow brick road when they saw the "Emerald City" (Wall Street?) of no inflation and a stock market that goes up forever. But now they have fallen asleep in the fields of poppies surrounding the city. What will they find when Glenda the good witch of the north wakes them up?....or will she? They are definitely not in Kansas anymore!
-------------------
Hello Bascom Toadvine,
Nice handle. I think the good witch will wake them up. But only after she has found them in a country like Mexico. Truly, America will wish it was in Kansas again.
TG
Simply Me
(09/23/00; 21:28:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 37343)
Gold Coins
Just thought I'd drop a line of thanks for all the good discussion here tonight. Time for me to get out of the way and let the big boys play. Thanks for posting your thoughts here, FOA and ALL!
My two cents (and that's all it's worth): I almost laughed out loud, even though everyone else in the house is asleep,
when I thought of the Euro's gold coin circulating...as in Mundell's suggestion...along with the U.S. Sacagawea "Golden Dollar"!! Let's see now, which coin do I want to add to my savings....Hmmm, that American Indian girl sure is pretty, but.....
And it makes me a little sad to think how many Americans would not know the difference in value between xxx number of Sac. dollars and a gold coin. I still run into people who think there is some gold in the "Golden Dollar". I tell them it's like the rest of the US economy...all PR and nothing to back it up.
FWIW
simply me
Cavan Man
(09/23/00; 21:28:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 37342)
Hello TG
I've just returned from a long day at a fundraising event and am preparing for same tomorrow. I thought I would catch up on the forum here; it is truly all I read. I am beginning to think the only reason to own gold is your presentation on current events. Believe it or not, I (with small brain) do understand all you present very, very well. In fact, I can see "it" no other way.
I can offer nothing else at this time except a humble thanks. Sincere regards....CM
PH in LA
(09/23/00; 21:26:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 37341)
Early inflation indicator? Or just noise?
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/gas1.html
Greetings FOA,
Did you by any chance see my post from last Wednesday? (follows)
Are these numbers actually valid ones? They do come from the Dept. of Energy. And if so, are they harbingers of things to come? ie. lower inflation in the Euro zone. Or are they (in your opinion) just numerical noise?
PH in LA (09/20/00; 17:32:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 37061)
Interesting gasoline price quotations from DOE.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/gas1.html
Did anyone else notice the following series of numbers while scrolling past most of the posts at
Kitco this morning?
Is this evidence of FOA/Another's predicted contention that inflation will impact the US while the
Euro zone becomes a stable system with low (or at least lower) price inflation? What say you
FOA? Has Kitco poster SDRer uncovered something here? Are these numbers real? Is this
already the first manifestations of price stability in the Euro zone while the UK/US/IMF world
shifts into inflation overdrive?
Date: Wed Sep 20 2000 01:09
SDRer (CALL TO ARMS, grab your scalpels…) ID#246299:
Copyright © 2000 SDRer/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
...Please spend some time with these figures [asking pointed questions all the while!] These are
Department Of Energy figures.
Weekly Retail Premium Gasoline Prices ( INCLUDING TAXES )
U.S. Dollars per Gallon ( Premium leaded for Belgium, France, Italy, and U.K.; premium unleaded
for Germany, Netherlands, and U.S. ) [DOE figures, please note]
Date Belgium
09/02/1996 $4.02
09/09/1996 $4.05
09/01/1997 $3.60
09/08/1997 $3.63
09/07/1998 $3.52
09/14/1998 $3.56
09/06/1999 $3.60
09/13/1999 $3.35
09/04/2000 $3.63
09/11/2000 $3.58
09/18/2000 $3.47
LESS!
Date France
09/02/1996 $4.02
09/09/1996 $4.02
09/01/1997 $3.48
09/08/1997 $3.53
09/07/1998 $3.51
09/14/1998 $3.57
09/06/1999 $3.60
09/13/1999 $3.55
09/04/2000 $3.76
09/11/2000 $3.66
09/18/2000 $3.70
LESS!
Date Germany
09/02/1996 $4.08
09/09/1996 $4.05
09/01/1997 $3.44
09/08/1997 $3.45
09/07/1998 $3.36
09/14/1998 $3.41
09/06/1999 $3.55
09/13/1999 $3.45
09/04/2000 $3.52
09/11/2000 $3.42
09/18/2000 $3.47
LESS!
Date Italy
09/02/1996 $4.20
09/09/1996 $4.21
09/01/1997 $3.64
09/08/1997 $3.68
09/07/1998 $3.63
09/14/1998 $3.69
09/06/1999 $3.70
09/13/1999 $3.64
09/04/2000 $3.75
09/11/2000 $3.64
09/18/2000 $3.63
LESS!
Date Netherlands
09/02/1996 $4.49
09/09/1996 $4.38
09/01/1997 $3.73
09/08/1997 $3.73
09/07/1998 $3.64
09/14/1998 $3.69
09/06/1999 $3.72
09/13/1999 $3.68
09/04/2000 $4.02
09/11/2000 $3.96
09/18/2000 $3.91
LESS!
Date U.K.
09/02/1996 $3.29
09/09/1996 $3.27
09/01/1997 $3.80
09/08/1997 $3.76
09/07/1998 $4.00
09/14/1998 $4.03
09/06/1999 $4.29
09/13/1999 $4.30
09/04/2000 $4.37
09/11/2000 $4.29
09/18/2000 $4.24
M O R E !!
Date U.S.
09/02/1996 $1.38
09/09/1996 $1.38
09/01/1997 $1.42
09/08/1997 $1.42
09/07/1998 $1.19
09/14/1998 $1.19
09/06/1999 $1.42
09/13/1999 $1.43
09/04/2000 $1.71
09/11/2000 $1.74
09/18/2000 $1.73
M O R E!!!
Trail Guide
(09/23/00; 21:22:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 37340)
Comment
Mr Gresham (09/16/00; 15:40:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 36807)
FOA -- The Trail
You put the story together, again, all in one place. I'm amazed at your patience in doing so for us, but each time I think a little more sticks to my synapses.
Question: What have the oil producers been doing with their excess dollars since early '99's oil rise? Were they still bought off by paper gold deals? Or, not really in a hurry, they could wait to phase out of those and buy physical longer-term? Or did some of them have dollar debt to work out of first, in the process of paying off now?
How cynical are they? How much pressure is put on them in other ways to give the dollar more time? Why are they so patient, so far?
In other words, why didn't physical get a jolt from them before now?
-----------------
Mr. G,,,, Hello again:
I'll be conducting a hike on that very question. Next time on the trail.
TG
Trail Guide
(09/23/00; 21:18:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 37339)
Comment
Clint H (09/16/00; 20:48:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 36811)
FOA (09/16/00; 10:02:54MD - usagold.com msg#37
<<Yes, a few gold mining companies will make it and so too will some in the gold banking industry. It's possible they will do extremely well, but the gains will only compare evenly to the gains in physical gold. It's that simple! >>
Powerful!!!! Compares to "nothing can travel faster than the speed of light?"
--------------------
Hello Clint H,
I think the man that gave us E=Mc2 would also be a gold owner at this time! He understood the speed of light very well (smile).
TG
Also: Hello Aristotle!
Trail Guide
(09/23/00; 21:12:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 37338)
Reply
da2g (09/16/00; 22:12:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 36813)
Swiss Gold Sales
This question is respectfully asked of FOA, but however I would appreciate anyone who would address it (and perhaps it has been addressed before, if so forgive me). What is the motivation of the Swiss to divest themselves of so much gold?
--------------
Hello da2g,
They are also doing some of the same maneuvers as the British (as stated below). But, as I understand it,,,,, that gold is also flowing in a round about way into the ECB system,,,,,, for Euros. The BIS (as the official selling broker) has many ways of moving gold between CBs without it ever being on the books. I think we will all see more of this gold trail once the dollar really begins it's fall.
Then,,,, every official gold owner in the world will be proclaiming their ownership of this bullion that suddenly appeared out of nowhere.
We da2g, must accept that eventually the Swiss will become part of the Euro system. Perhaps they will enter in some two tier market plan? I don't know yet, but they will be very hurt without some form of membership. To this end their gold will best work for them if it's under ECB control in an
EMCB format. We shall see.
TG
Al Fulchino
(09/23/00; 21:12:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 37337)
Trurl
re your
4. The joke about a rich man going to heaven with a sack of gold, and being asked why he brought pavement has been told here. But – turn it around. Can anyone name anything else we know will be in the Christian concept of heaven, that you can hold in your hand here on earth?
That was an interesting post in all. Your last thought caught my eye. I don't believe we will holding a solitary thing. Instead I believe we "will be held" by what we loved here on earth. And taken to a dimension that welcomes its own kind.
Aristotle
(09/23/00; 20:59:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 37336)
Buena Fe--your GoldMoney post and its concept is beautiful in a visceral sorta way--
http://www.usagold.com/halldiscussion.html
but I'm afraid Gresham's Law will take it down, hard and fast.
Mundell's "trial balloon" must be considered in this full context also.
My opinion.
Gold. Get you some. ---Aristotle
Trail Guide
(09/23/00; 20:57:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 37335)
It's just some wood with string on it, no?
Do you mean to tell me a strad is worth over $40,000 now?
(huge grin)
TG
Strad Master
(09/23/00; 20:56:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 37334)
Oops! I take it all back.
Mea Culpa!
I realize I didn't even read your enlightening post correctly. Too bad I don't have any IBM shares to buy Strads with...
Strad Master
(09/23/00; 20:51:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 37333)
Trail Guide
A Quick (and totally meaningless) Correction (:-)))
I go through life thinkng how many houses my Strad will buy. NOT the other way around! (Smile!) Thanks for your always enlightening postings.
Trail Guide
(09/23/00; 20:48:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 37332)
G7 ready for further euro action
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/newsid_936000/936917.stm
Saturday, 23 September, 2000, 19:35 GMT 20:35--- UK
---It was widely reported that Mr Summers had finally agreed to help boost the euro because of the collapse of US company profits in Europe, which has led to a sharp stock market sell-off.
The high value of the dollar against the euro makes US goods more expensive in Europe, and has been hurting their sales. ------------
--------------------------
Did we just talk about this?
TG
Trurl
(09/23/00; 20:45:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 37331)
Perceptions
Perception is reality
1. POG. Visit www.bls.gov. Look at the ‘all urban consumers’ CPI stats in the data area. I picked May ’33 as a comparison point. The index was 12.6. The most recent index was 172.7 ( 1984==100 ). If you divide recent POG of $276 by this ratio, you end up with a May ’33 adjusted price of $20.13. If you ever wished you could buy gold at the ‘old’ fixed price of $20.67, look! Its on sale!
2. Why do "official" notes, contracts, etc, never use the dollar sign($)? Check out a US federal reserve note. Lots of text, but the one thing missing is the $ symbol. Look at the ‘deed’ to your house. Note the transfer tax and other amounts listed. At least on mine, no $. I was told that using the $ symbol would invoke the provision of constitutionally defined dollars; originally being 371.25 grains of pure silver. Note that NO USA COIN EVER, has had a $ on it, except the recently started platinum eagle series. I guess I could take a 1/10 oz one of these and demand $10 constitutional money from the US treasury. Why don't I? I learned early on you don't annoy a coiled rattlesnake…
I've never heard this concept mentioned at this or other gold sites; does any attorney or others have more or better info on this????
3. With a present western mind set ( all too true, FOA! ), just how high a price would you pay for gold? I know I would have troubles at much over $600, unless I had paid all my debts, given to charity, had groceries, and little other use for the legal tenders.
4. The joke about a rich man going to heaven with a sack of gold, and being asked why he brought pavement has been told here. But – turn it around. Can anyone name anything else we know will be in the Christian concept of heaven, that you can hold in your hand here on earth?
Just things to think about.
Trail Guide
(09/23/00; 20:29:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 37330)
Comment
beesting (9/22/2000; 13:26:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 37229)
ORO is Right! The second part of ORO's # 37224 covers "EURO Intervention" today by the U.S. FED, BOJ and ECB.It's Right On!
Well my guess it was to try to show the Group of 7 (G-7) meeting tomorrow in Prague that "We(U.S. FED/BOJ)have things under control." Because, if they(FED) hadn't taken this action today, the G-7 would have devalued the U.S.Dollar by a much larger percentage at the end of their meeting. We watch together.....beesting.
------------
Hello Beesting,
In a way I echoed ORO's nice post in my trail talk today. Truly, it's the dollar that must fall and do it in Euro terms. Our present situation is in no way comparable to past dollar problems. Our US policy must now be one of intervention as raising interest rates to a degree that would work will not be allowed.
This will be the last inflation, my friend. The last and the longest! We will find that in time all our markets will reflect this with rising prices and changing terms of trade.
If we think the G-7 cannot be maneuvered, just look at what they did to the dollar in 1985. Then it was the Yen that was so low it somewhat threatened the US. Yet, the Yen was nothing compared to the Euro Project, especially when one considers that ME oil is what helped shape it. Yes, the political will was Old Europe and BIS to the core, but oil is what made it so.
Further:
England recognized this and began making conditions to join EMU even though their public is negative. That's because they only have half the story. Britain is selling it's gold in such a strange format so as to somewhat bail out a few of it's favorite gold players. But only a few will make it.
Most of them will be eaten as the London / American gold markets evaporate. Can you imagine the Brits thinking in Euros? Ha! Ha! I have to live long enough to see this!
TG
Trail Guide
(09/23/00; 19:58:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 37329)
Reply
Michael,
I'll reply in order:
USAGOLD (09/23/00; 17:24:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 37319)
FOA. . .
Your comment: "When reading his speeches I almost feel like I have talked to him before."
Maybe because the logic looks familiar? I've often wondered about the same ideas coming to largenumbers of people at the same time. You see it all the time -- even in considerably soft scienceslike political economy not to speak of the highly disciplined hard sciences. I think it is because
shared knowledge and analysis logically leads people to similar conclusions. Sorry..........I drift .........
----------------------
I never thought of that as drifting. Sounds more like thinking (smile).
-----------------------
Your post:
-----------
If you were to go pure Rothbard (and FOA) on this thing, the coin would not be marked with a currency value, but I always have had trouble with that because, practically speaking, how do you use such a coin in day to day transactions. I can just imagine going to the scooter shop to buy
transportation and having to get a calculator out, call the gold broker, etc. to determine how many ounces of gold it would take to complete the transaction.
--------------------
Well MK, try thinking of it as a internationally secure asset you don't use for transactions. Consider; how many assets we all hold and think of as our wealth savings? Yet none of us can spend them as a currency? Stocks, real estate, oil reserves, rare pictures, antiques, violins (Strad Master (smile)? You go through life with some idea of how many cars your house could buy,,,,, how many violins
your IBM shares could bring,,,,, but never the exact amount without a quote. Why some people even own millions in 30 year bonds,,,,, an actual currency debt,,,,, but only have an idea of it's tradable worth because of market changes.
All of these items form part of our wealth and are just as much spend able and tradable as any digital currency. But first one must convert a portion (or all) of them into a modern digital transactional currency before spending. So why not hold gold the way it was always intended; not
as an officially denominated currency but as an officially declared savings asset ,,,,,, and be as a part of our real wealth in coin form?
Think further back. Back into the time of your earliest rare coins. These gold coins were the actual currency, but no one knew the street market for gold? When Marcus went into his Roman scooter shop did he know the gold price? Even if these official coins were a "gold coin of the Roman Empire equal to 25 denarii", he did not know the value of a denarius unit. No, he just knew how much weight in gold it would take to make his purchase. This many tiny coins of so much gold
weight. It's tradable value was not in the denarii, rather it was in the scooter.
A gold asset has a moving value whether it's denominated in currency units or not. That's because the value in gold comes from how much weight it takes to trade for anything else,,,,, and in real life everything else is always changing in value from our human demand.
Even deeper; again,,,,, if gold is used as a currency it has no fixed value even if denominated in so many units of the realm,,,,,, because the value of everything is always in a state of change,,,,, Therefore, official Gold value must not be fixed if it is to be worth saving as an asset. Us hard money types always promote the history example of how gold kept everything so stable. Yet, everything was always in a state of value evolution, even in gold terms.
I hope I'm not drifting alone here (smile).
From your post:
-------------------------------
But when you go on this line of reasoning, you are confronted with a major question:
What would EU put as a currency value on that one ounce gold coin? Now that's something to think about. . . . . If you do not put a currency value on it, you make exchange risk a factor in every transaction. I don't think that's what Mundell has in mind, though I could easily be wrong on that.
Am I missing something here, FOA? Each method provides its unique advantages and disadvantages.
-------------------------------------
But Michael, exchange risk is inherent in everything we own. Only a currency system that can recognize and base itself on the flexible nature of gold value can survive in the long run. As a high speed, modern, global trading society we are not going to drive digital currencies away because gold is becoming more valuable. If that were the case we would already be using stock certificates to buy our groceries (grin). FreeGold will allow us to use the timeless traits of gold wealth to protect ourselves from currency inflation.
From your post:
----------------
I'm with you all the way on this being a trial balloon. I think there are those in Europe who know what it's going to take to overcome the euro's problems and what better way to float the gold euro idea than through a Nobel Prize winner who happens to know what he's talking about. In the recent
interview of Judy Shelton (another economist I admire) by Robert Novak, she mentioned that gold was going to make a comeback as the international arbiter of value because it is the only true international money -- money without a country, as I have said before. She said gold was perfect
for the direction the world was going -- breaking down international trade barriers, etc.
----------------
Yes, I think we are well on the way to using gold as an international free asset in monetary affairs. The difference this time is that the next reserve currency has learned to use gold in the same way we have,,,,,,,, by allowing it to protect their system from political tinkering. Rather than use gold to force responsible currency creation through currency denomination of it's weight (something that
history has shown will always fail),,,,,, FreeGold will make the very best meter to indicate currency inflation. A meter for all to see!
-------------
again, your post:
---------
Another thought, FOA. . .
Either way, wouldn't adopting such a proposal virtually put an end to gold sales and leases out of Europe? Perhaps the Washington Agreement was Prelude?? Talk about logic. . .
-----------------------
"The Winds Of Change"!
TG
Mr Gresham
(09/23/00; 19:02:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 37328)
Oro, Peter, ...
Peter: Bingo! "It has also been asked often here why some big player doesn't make a buy run and trigger the short squeeze panic to make a killing. My answer is that the BIG players are in it to Buy And Hold!" Privacy and secrecy are their middle names. If we're on to their game, we'll never be told in advance. We either are "walking in the footsteps of giants", or we aren't. Risk/reward looks pretty good either way.
ORO #37224 -- there you go again, that thoroughness! Why weren't my economics textbooks that thorough, graspable, and imaginative? Oops, gotta go. I coulda said more, but you know...
lamprey_65
(09/23/00; 19:02:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 37327)
Buena Fe
http://www.goldmoney.com/announce/pr_2000-02-07.html
You may have found something very important...
Check the link above for explanations which include the following quote:
GoldMoney, based on several US patents for transacting with electronic gold is backed by some of the world's leading gold mines, gold analysts and gold marketers. GoldMoney is presently tying up gold vaults and on-line merchants willing to try the system. "Only the world's most reputable vaults
are being approached as security and credibility are our primary concern so consumers have peace
of mind," said DaVanzo.
-----
Hmmm, based out of the Isle of Man. They mention that gold has "bottomed-out" and therefore "the spending power of gold can only go up in the future." Convenient, heh? The best time to introduce an electronic-based, gold-backed payment system IS during a paper-created, artificially low valuation period for gold (just like switching to Euros for payment when it is in an undervalued situation would make sense).
Keep an eye on this.
Lamprey
Trail Guide
(09/23/00; 17:59:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 37326)
Comment
JavaMan (09/23/00; 17:21:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 37318)
Trail Guide...good to hear from you! You said...
"...the oil is really there in the SPR but only in IOU form."
------------------------
Ha! Ha! JavaMan I know that oil is there now (as we speak). But, if they start draining it this time, I doubt it will ever, ever be replaced again. The US knows the oil pricing dynamics have and are changing today. Truly, fundamental supply and demand was never the driving force. Real payment
for oil was!
We have made a mistake in deciding to inflate the paper gold currency supply like it was a fiat. Today, without Europe's gold backing, that American portion of paper no longer can control the dollar pricing of oil! Mainly because paper gold is held in the same memory banks of minds that knew 1971. This play will not be performed again!
TG
Ragador
(09/23/00; 17:52:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 37325)
@USAGold sorry wrong person
My question was directed at Trail Guide......
Ragador
(09/23/00; 17:49:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 37324)
@USAGold
Could you direct me to a link explaining Free Gold? I can think of gold associated with a currency value or a bullion coin. Free gold must be something else.
Buena Fe
(09/23/00; 17:47:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 37323)
oops!
I hope I haven't violated the Forum code with that last post.....I didn't think of it as possibly competing with Centenial PM's........no offense intented.
Trail Guide
(09/23/00; 17:45:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 37322)
Reply
Buena Fe (09/23/00; 17:20:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 37317)
-----."ride the winds of change with direct "physical gold ownership/possession" to preserve and enhance your wealth!"-----
-----do you for see this process still taking a few years, or is it truly "unpredictable" in its timetable?--
----------------------
Hello Buena Fe!
I'm happy you are coming to terms with all of this. It's a real broad thing to get one's mind around. Yes, we will all,,,,, in our time "ride these winds of change"!
As in all political conflicts, the actual timing of the event is impossible. The actions can indeed be there and also out of sight,,,,, but the other side must also make a choice to react to these events either in the open or out of sight. Nothing spills into public view until all the jockeying is exhausted.
I personally know the now year old Washington Agreement as an public showing that one part of the contest was now exhausted. In other words, we were as I said then "on the road to high priced gold"! But nothing happened right then. Indeed, that spike was nothing compared to what could
have happened.
We as free agents must take this time frame to prepare for the time when an uncontrollable spike closes the dollar paper gold markets for good. I would say this is in the pipeline but when will it spill out?
TG
Buena Fe
(09/23/00; 17:38:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 37321)
Free Gold!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.goldmoney.com/home/
HEY GUYS AND GALS DOES THIS MONETARY SYSTEM SOUND INTERESTING? OR WHAT!!!!
GoldMoney® is an Internet currency system now under development and expected to be operational in Q4 2000.
GoldMoney is combining cutting-edge Internet technology with gold, the world's oldest money. The result is GoldGrams™, which are grams of gold, circulating world-wide on the Internet as gold electronic currency.
GoldMoney Secures New Venture Capital
(Douglas, Isle of Man, 2 August 2000) - G.M. Network Ltd. has today announced that it has accepted a new venture capital investment. These funds will be used to continue the development of GoldMoney, which aims to become the currency of choice for global ecommerce.
The investment has been made by Hyde Park Holdings, Inc a New York investment group. Under the terms of the agreement, US$600,000 is immediately available, and Hyde Park Holdings at its option can invest another US$600,000 within six months. Additionally, Hyde Park Holdings will nominate one director to the board of G.M. Network Ltd.
James Turk, the Managing Director of G.M. Network Ltd. and the founder of GoldMoney said: "These funds will be used to complete the development of GoldMoney, which is scheduled for our initial product launch later in the year."
GoldMoney will provide a non-repudiable method of payment that is made in real-time while costing only pennies, so it will therefore offer a significant improvement over existing ecommerce payment systems. GoldMoney aims to provide consumers and international businesses with peace of mind, ease of payment and control of costs in their ecommerce transactions by using gold as the medium of exchange.
"We are taking the world's oldest money - gold - and using 21st century technology to enable gold to circulate as currency in global ecommerce. Hyde Park Holdings is excited about the tremendous potential to make GoldGrams™, the basic unit of account of GoldMoney, become the common currency of global ecommerce for businesses and consumers. But in addition, they are very interested in expanding our intellectual property into other applications as well," continued Turk. G.M. Network Ltd. has been awarded two US patents, and a third patent application is pending.
"We are very pleased about this new investment and look forward to working with Hyde Park Holdings to make GoldMoney the world's leading ecommerce payment provider," said Turk.
GoldMoney will work on the principle that its users will transact with one another with gold stored in major bullion vaults. When a person purchases a good or service on the Internet, they will enter their GoldMoney number instead of a credit card number. The corresponding value of gold will be immediately transferred from the holding of the consumer to the holding of the vendor without the gold ever leaving the vault. The aim is to create a community using GoldMoney as the medium of exchange. GoldMoney will have appeal especially among corporations and international business people engaged in cross-border transactions.
goldfan
(09/23/00; 17:27:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 37320)
Journeyman (09/20/00; 10:45:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 37037)
Sir Journeyman, concerning your interesting and stimulating questions.
QUESTION OF THE DAY ONE: If the banks could issue what were
essentially counterfeit notes at will, why didn't banking and
money completely collapse during this extremely prosperous period
(growth-rate of six or seven percent per year) of over 100 years?
Why didn't these free banks simply print so many un-backed
counterfeit notes that the currency went into hyper-inflation?
QUESTION OF THE DAY TWO: Why did "regulated banking," under
control of the Federal Reserve, turn in such incredibly worse
results -- and manage do it in less than 20 years?
QUESTION OF THE DAY THREE: Did business/government finagled
"regulation" in the form of the Federal Reserve Act improve
banking? (Yea. I know. This one's a throw-away.)
In the days when scrip money was issued by local banks, people everywhere had a healthy fear of loss of wealth. They were well aware their local bank, if it was robbed, could not replace their savings. They knew that they depended on the banker to keep their gold savings safe, and not get over extended on risky loans, even in hard times, when everyone needed help. Local banks were subject to local controls. Yes, they could print unlimited amounts of scrip, but did not often do so. The banker had a stake in his local community. His reputation and his community friendships depended on his probity in safeguarding their savings, and making credit available when needed. He was kept in check, by the need to maintain an appropriate level of reserves in real gold, as well as the knowledge that if he did not, there was no central bank, or lender of last resort to bail him out. If he failed in his task, he hurt his friends and wrecked his reputation. It is not commonly understood that reputation is all a banker has. They have no particular skill, like say, a blacksmith, or a cobbler, or a computer programmer. The records of local banks are scrutinized locally, and any excess of debt, is punished by threat of a run on the bank, with no bailout possible. And it is only that particular bank that gets punished, not the whole system.
Now that central banks, and behind them, the public, have become a "lender of last resort", local bankers are no longer bound by the fear of failure, and worry about their local reputation. All they worry about is increasing their profits, and making greater contributions to the earnings of the corporate headquarters, increasing the value of executive's stock options. They now take pleasure in accommodating their friends needs for credit. They look for opportunities to shower debt on a public that is sure that if they can't pay what they owe, it won't hurt their local bank, because the government will always bail them out.
So we have had a switch in public attitudes about money and wealth and savings, from the old days, when we knew we relied only on each other, locally, for survival, and therefore had a healthy fear of making poor investments. Now we have no such fears. Now we operate under the blind certainty that the central federal government will always compensate for our mistakes, our only fear becoming that we will miss the boat if we don't invest heavily in every ponzi scheme put in front of us.
Paper can be printed by anyone, dot.com promoters, corporate ESOP's, hedge funds, and become in frenzied demand, because not enough of the 20 to 50-year olds have any experience of loss, any fear of loss. They have only the shame of not being "with it", the ecstasy of greed seemingly rewarded. Scrip that is easy to get is not precious. We neither safeguard it on behalf of ourselves, or of others.
Greed now rules, instead of fear, and that will be our undoing.
Get some gold, start a "real" bank!!!
Thanks for the questions that prompted this screed.
Goldfan
USAGOLD
(09/23/00; 17:24:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 37319)
FOA. . .
Your comment: "When reading his speeches I almost feel like I have talked to him before."
Maybe because the logic looks familiar? I've often wondered about the same ideas coming to large numbers of people at the same time. You see it all the time -- even in considerably soft sciences like political economy not to speak of the highly disciplined hard sciences. I think it is because shared knowledge and analysis logically leads people to similar conclusions. Sorry..........I drift.........
If you were to go pure Rothbard (and FOA) on this thing, the coin would not be marked with a currency value, but I always have had trouble with that because, practically speaking, how do you use such a coin in day to day transactions. I can just imagine going to the scooter shop to buy transportation and having to get a calculator out, call the gold broker, etc. to determine how many ounces of gold it would take to complete the transaction.
But when you go on this line of reasoning, you are confronted with a major question:
What would EU put as a currency value on that one ounce gold coin? Now that's something to think about. . . . . If you do not put a currency value on it, you make exchange risk a factor in every transaction. I don't think that's what Mundell has in mind, though I could easily be wrong on that.
Am I missing something here, FOA? Each method provides its unique advantages and disadvantages.
I'm with you all the way on this being a trial balloon. I think there are those in Europe who know what it's going to take to overcome the euro's problems and what better way to float the gold euro idea than through a Nobel Prize winner who happens to know what he's talking about. In the recen t interview of Judy Shelton (another economist I admire) by Robert Novak, she mentioned that gold was going to make a comeback as the international arbiter of value because it is the only true international money -- money without a country, as I have said before. She said gold was perfect for the direction the world was going -- breaking down international trade barriers, etc.
Another thought, FOA. . .
Either way, wouldn't adopting such a proposal virtually put an end to gold sales and leases out of Europe? Perhaps the Washington Agreement was Prelude?? Talk about logic. . .
All: I will be gone the early part of this evening and just wanted to get this post up before I left. Anyone else have input on this? Have there been other articles and did Mundell expand on this anywhere?
Will check back later. . . .
JavaMan
(09/23/00; 17:21:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 37318)
Trail Guide...good to hear from you! You said...
"...the oil is really there in the SPR but only in IOU form."
And I say, only in IOU form...maybe!
And only if the price is cheap enough that the refiners feel its in their best interests to return it (maybe). Or what happens if they don't? Does anyone know what the specifics are of such an arrangement?
And what can we expect after we have "drained our last line of defense."? Seems like Clinton and company have little regard for our national security.
The last time the SPR was tapped was during the Gulf War, and, perhaps, with good reason. Today's circumstances hardly compare with those times. This is blatant intervention in free markets. So what's new? Perhaps, this is an effort to demonstrate how potent Al Gore is...what a "take-charge", "qualified-to-be-President" kind of guy he is.
Yes, we shall see...and it won't be long either.
Buena Fe
(09/23/00; 17:20:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 37317)
TG & MK
Thank you Mike for this Forum (and a belated Happy Birthday! wishes to all), and Thank you Trail Guide for sharing your perspectives relating to this world's changing of the Monetary Guard! As I've participated in this "Hike" over the past two years I appreciate more and more the simplicity of your's and Anothers message...."ride the winds of change with direct "physical gold ownership/possession" to preserve and enhance your wealth!"
I'm sure that the behind the scenes discussions (among the competing elite) have almost reached the exploding point on several occasions.....it is great theater. The most enlightening sentences I've seen in a while where penned (typed) in your last Gold Trail Post #39....."The very existence of a Euro today makes oil policy in America as never before. One way or Another oil production control is going to expose the "best" system for future use. The one that most values and allows real wealth pricing in currency terms. The first system that allows the price
of physical gold to rise will see it's currency price of oil fall."
As I see it, the system (bankers) less greedy wins the day, and thats good for all in the long run! As the power groups involved try and massage the transition......without a crash......with out a war...do you for see this process still taking a few years, or is it truly "unpredictable" in its timetable?
Gold IS Precious!
Trail Guide
(09/23/00; 17:17:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 37316)
(No Subject)
USAGOLD (09/22/00; 20:31:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 37267)
A Toast. . . I want to thank all of you for making this a memorable celebration.
-----------------
Well Michael,
I'm having my toast as Starbuck's coffee in one of their stainless steel mugs. For me, this is the usual! (smile) Perhaps a good wine with dinner tomorrow.
TG
Trail Guide
(09/23/00; 17:10:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 37315)
Comment
ET (09/22/00; 22:16:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 37281)
Markets
------"As the meter runs on California's electricity crisis, shock over this summer's price spikes is giving ,,,,,,,,,,,
Geez - what a quandry! The free market is intersecting with our collectivist friends in California.
-------------
Hello ET,
Boy, it just goes to show you how quickly a solid contract can be driven into the dirt when "Physical Electricity" is suddenly priced too high (smile). Don't think for a minute that our free market ideals are limited to being only represented by this action in Southern Cal!
Our friend Goldhunter (good poster here) will learn soon enough how a rising physical gold price will make the free market in contract gold fall apart also. People today only honor contracts if they are within accepted bounds. Once things get out of hand, it's time to settle up at the other man's loss!
TG
Trail Guide
(09/23/00; 16:56:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 37314)
Comment
JavaMan (9/23/2000; 9:42:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 37298)
As I understand it, the SPR draw-down is actually a swap in that at some (undetermined?) time inthe future, the refiners will have to replenish the inventories they took, presumably at the lower prices expected in the future. -------------
Hello JavaMan,
That's the way I read it too. In fact, it almost sounds like some sort of oil lending? Kind of like paper oil? Let's see; the oil is really there in the SPR but only in IOU form ,,,,,, like gold lent from a CB. No?
I can just hear the producers getting all excited at the prospects of us draining our last line of defense. I bet poster "Oldgold" is even wondering why the USA,,,,,, with all his reporting of American influence over the ME oil producers,,,,,, is now resorting to such an obvious weak ploy!
My take is that something else is exerting more pressure on our "political will" than the usual arm twisting can overcome. We pointed out on the trail and here that the Euro presence makes pricing concessions the norm. We shall see!
TG
HappyGoldLucky
(09/23/00; 16:49:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 37313)
General concern over outlook
There was a newsclip of World Bank President Wolfenhsohn coming out of some G-7 meeting in Prague, where the bigshots are chewing the fat. He said he was "concerned about the future, and there was a lot to be concerned about". Coming from someone like him makes me wonder what these people know and are telling each other. Draw your own conclusions, but rough seas ahead, methinks!
Trail Guide
(09/23/00; 16:43:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 37312)
Comment on MK's post
Hello USAGOLD!
That Mundell is something. When reading his speeches I almost feel like I have talked to him before. (smile)
My take on his latest (in your post) is that the gold coin part is a trial balloon. This isn't the first time we have driven in this direction. So, it's not the real end story. I always knew the Euro concept would eventually contain a gold Euro. But getting it past the crowd would take some doing,
indeed.
They may try to peg it's value in Euros initially, but the thrust will be to issue it as a Market Gold Euro. Perhaps it's name will be what you, Aristotle and myself would call a "Free Gold" Euro. I know this discussion will fly in the face of every past hard money thinker, but it not only will work, it will happen. We must watch this closely.
TG
Trail Guide
(09/23/00; 16:10:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 37311)
(No Subject)
online
USAGOLD
(09/23/00; 15:54:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 37310)
Canamami, FOA. . . .Mundell Wants Gold Coins to Circulate in Europe
Nobel Laureate Mundell Says Euro Needs Floor At $0.85
Dow Jones Newswires
PRAGUE -- A Nobel prize-winning economist known as the "intellectual godfather" of the euro Friday said the
Group of Seven leading industrialized nations should seek to maintain the euro's exchange rate above $0.85.
In a speech during the annual meetings of the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank, Columbia
University economist Robert Mundell said the euro's exchange rate should also be capped at $1.15.
"If the euro drops below $0.85 it's very much undervalued," he said. "I would start today with a floor at 85 cents
and a ceiling at 115 cents."
Speaking to CNBC later Friday, Mundell called on G7 finance ministers meeting Saturday to agree to a $0.85
floor for the euro.
"I think the G7 meeting should agree to do that," he said. "The important think is to eliminate the sentiment, the
possibility that the euro might drop to 82 cents or 79 cents as some people in the market are thinking."
Mundell was speaking after the European Central Bank intervened in the foreign exchange markets in support of
the euro. It was joined by the Bank of Japan, the U.S. Federal Reserve and other central banks.
Mundell received his Nobel prize last year, largely for work on optimal currency areas that provided much of the
intellectual justification for the launch of the euro in January 1999.
Mundell told CNBC the euro's exchange rate isn't justified by economic fundamentals in the euro zone.
"The fact is that the exchange rate has no relation whatever to competitiveness or any other aspects of the
European program," he said.
Mundell said that in order for intervention to be effective, it should take place in the forward as well as the spot
market. It isn't yet clear whether Friday's intervention did take place on the forward as well as the spot market.
In his speech, Mundell also said the euro zone should use its excess gold reserves to produce gold coins in order
to proved "a tangible manifestation of what the euro is."
He said the euro zone's decision to introduce euro notes and coins in 2002 - three years after the currency's launch
- was a mistake.
"It was a mistake to delay for three years the introduction of the paper currency and coins and the production of a
gold currency would heighten general interest in the euro," he said.
-By Paul Hannon Dow Jones Newswires; 44-7776-200 927 paul.hannon@dowjones.com
__________________
Comment: One wonders what Mr. Mundell has in mind with regard to minting that gold coin. He also talks of a "gold currency." To me that implies a circulating gold coin with an established, marked currency value on the coin. The ECB would be forced to defend that value. Mundell makes a bold proposal which if adapted would no doubt draw much attention among tradition-oriented money people both in the public and private sectors. Think for example, how the Gulf might respond to such a proposal, or even Americans looking to hedge their investment portfolios. With a gold euro, you would not only get a stand-in for gold at an expressed currency value, you would likely draw an interest rate (though it would likely be small).
Those of you who wonder about the modern roots for such thinking: Hear the voice of the late Murray Rothbard echoing in the Mundell proposal. One wonders if it will be taken seriously, though there is little doubt it would solve the problem of whether or not the euro should be taken seriously. I see the roots of extraordinary gold demand in this proposal and commend Mr. Mundell for what amounts to an act of bravery. (The critics will likely try to shout him down.) To maintain the imprinted currency value of the coin, the ECB would have to be prepared to issue whatever number of gold coins demanded at that value. This is serious business. He talks of a "gold currency" because he knows issuing another bullion coin would lack any useful purpose in terms of establishing and defending the euro.
TownCrier
(09/23/00; 15:43:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 37309)
Sir canamami
http://www.usagold.com/onlinestore/special.html
Nice effort on the "archery" contest.
Regarding the 30-coin thing...I don't know how that one got by me, but it's looking much better now. Glad to see you agree. The greatest journey (life) always starts with baby steps...
TownCrier
(09/23/00; 15:21:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 37308)
Contest #3
It was a longshot that anyone would claim the very large gold prize for this Olympic medal contest...with odds slightly better than the powerball lottery.
The gold medal standings after 127 events following the conclusion of the USAGOLD Forum Birthday celebration:
US . . . . . .18
China . . . . 14
France. . . . 10
Judging for contest #1 will take us few days. It was a grand success, and we thank all of you who took a moment to share your thoughts!
Peter Asher
(9/23/2000; 13:51:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 37307)
Stranger, >>>Governments simply cannot print gobs of money and then outlaw inflation. <<<
You would be amazed at what governments think they can outlaw.
At the onset of the automotive age out in the then rural Hamptons area of Suffolk county, a law was passed stating:
"An operator of a motor vehicle shall, when being approached from the other direction by a horse drawn carriage, pull of the road and dismantle the body of the vehicle so as not to frighten the animal." (Quote approximate)
Twice Discipled
(9/23/2000; 13:11:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 37306)
Ug! Brain and fingers not connecting ...
"He also" not "If also"
Twice Discipled
(9/23/2000; 13:09:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 37305)
Leigh - current pricing (local)
Bought 100 oz silver rounds this week and paid $5 each. Walked in to the local dealer I do a lot of business with and he offered to sell to me at $4.90 + sales tax.
If also told me that MS63 Saints bottomed at $370 (in his view WAY oversold) a few weeks ago and he bought several from the big nation-wide guys. The same ones are now $420.
He said buying is really picking up and he is moving a lot of gold, but has several thousand ounces of silver sitting around that he would like to move.
He said he "thinks" the market for slabs has bottomed and should inch up from here.
Just a local view.
auspec
(9/23/2000; 12:43:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 37304)
British Gold Sales/ Gore Oil Sales
Anyone else see the similar modus operandi between British gold sales and Gore's release of SPRs? This incremental unloading has been quite successful to date for the Brits and friends as it has served as an overhang on the market psycologically and also has served to buy time for them. Gore only needs 6 weeks and they can release 5 million barrels at a time with great fanfare each time. The underlying threat is that there is more that can be released as needed. Who doubts that they would do this? It is really quite clever as neither the Brits nor the USG have that much supply of these respective commodities, so might as well get the maximum impact for what they do have. Someone should get a nice promotion for this, but where do you get promoted to once you make partner at Goldman Suchs? Oh, nevermind.
AUSPEC
TheStranger
(9/23/2000; 12:27:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 37303)
Black Blade, canamami, All, ET and Cavan Man
BB - My, how your fingers must fly over that keyboard of yours. Still, I am in awe of you even more for your quality than your quantity.
For what it's worth,I agree that Einhorn's concluding paragraph is at odds with the rest of her message. She carefully explains the bottlenecks which exist, but then she discounts them when discussing next spring. I wonder what is supposed to change between now and then.
canamami - Thanks for calling me a heavyweight (if you only knew...). I haven't listened to Coxe, yet, but I think he is mistaken if he thinks energy prices aren't going to be reflected throughout the economy. Furthermore, rapid money growth has made demand exceed supply in areas which go far beyond just energy. As you know, this is especially true when it comes to the supply and demand for labor, a consideration which has even broader inflation implications than does energy.
Anyway, thanks for your compliments. You know that is exactly how I feel about you, too.
All - Greenspan has now let two FOMC meetings pass without raising rates. This may be partly for political reasons, but it may also reflect an unwillingness to risk a recession. Undoubtedly, he is proud of his record long peacetime expansion and wants history to remember him for it. If so, this is a vanity he can ill-afford.
If there is no inflation, why is Clinton tapping the SPR? Why is Sacramento trying to force stockholders of California's three major electric utilities to eat $4 Billion in higher expenses rather than pass them on to rate payers? Leftist actions such as these smack of the Nixon price controls.
While we should expect to see more of this kind of foolishness, we should not expect it to succeed. Governments simply cannot print gobs of money and then outlaw inflation. Such policies merely create shortages of the very products and services which are in question. (Those of us who are old enough to remember the hording of the early seventies know exactly what I am talking about). Interestingly, the Barron's article, which Black Blade has generously reprinted above, mentions the hording of heating oil which is now taking place. Except for the stories about Y2K alarmists, it has been a long time since we have heard about hording in America. The last time was during the Nixon wage and price freeze, and the fact that we are hearing such stories now is no coincidence. Sooner or later, the hording will turn to Gold.
ET and Cavan Man - thanks, as always, for your recent inflation reports. I am flattered that you've addressed some of them to me, and I hope you will keep it up. Perhaps others in the forum have similar examples to share as well. I hope so.
Peter Asher
(9/23/2000; 12:16:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 37302)
USA now stands for United Socialists of America
http://news.excite.com/news/ap/000923/11/news-oil-release?printstory=1
>>>Clinton directed that $400 million in federal aid be released "to help families that can least bear the burden of high energy prices<<<<
And Bush finally makes an intelligent and creative statement. Well, a sentence at least
>>> Bush accused Gore of using the reserve as a personal "strategic political reserve." <<<
Clinton Explains Oil Reserve Tap
Updated 11:33 AM ET September 23, 2000
By H. JOSEF HEBERT, Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) - President Clinton said Saturday that tapping the
government's emergency oil reserve is "plainly the prudent thing to do" and
announced a series of other actions to shield low-income families from
exorbitant heating costs this winter.
"Families shouldn't have to drain their wallets to drive their cars or heat
their homes," he said at the White House before leaving on a political trip
to California.
Clinton directed that $400 million in federal aid be released "to help
families that can least bear the burden of high energy prices." He said it
was the largest such release ever.
The president defended the decision Friday to put 30 million barrels of the government's
petroleum stockpile into the market and rejected Republican charges that the move was
politically motivated to help Vice President Al Gore.
Referring to the critics, Clinton said, "I doubt if they are relying on home heating oil this
winter."
Overall heating oil inventories are more than 20 percent lower now than they were at this
time in 1999, Clinton said. Inventories are down 50 percent on the East Coast and more than
60 percent in New England, raising doubts about adequate supplies in the coming months.
Responding to claims that he has not developed an adequate energy policy, Clinton took a
slap at the Republican-controlled Congress, which he said has "chopped, blocked and
ignored" administration proposals aimed at promoting energy efficiency and development of
renewable energy sources as alternatives to oil.
"For every dollar we've sought to invest in cleaner, efficient sources of energy, they have
provided a dime. I urge Congress to get off the dime and take action," he said.
Defending his use of the emergency reserve, Clinton said, "It's plainly the prudent thing to
do. ... This is the right thing to do. It's good energy policy. It's good national security policy
and good family policy."
In addition to the $400 million in energy assistance, Clinton said he also was:
-Asking the Environmental Protection Agency to help states identify ways to use more and
different kinds of heating oil in an effort to build inventories further.
-Directing federal agencies to make early contractual commitments to purchase heating oil to
give wholesalers "the confidence to build inventories in advance." Wholesalers have not
built up stocks, anticipating wholesale prices may decline later in the year.
-Asking state public utility commissions to make sure that factories and businesses that use
heating oil as a backup keep adequate reserves.
"Taken together, these steps will enhance our nation's energy security and help to cushion
families from high heating bills," Clinton said.
Analysts were uncertain how much of an impact the additional oil will have as it is released
from the government reserve over the next 30 days. Republicans called it an election-year
ploy aimed at getting votes for Vice President Al Gore.
"This is not political," Energy Secretary Bill Richardson insisted as he announced the oil
drawdown Friday - as a "swap" for future oil - from the federal Strategic Petroleum
Reserve. The reserve on the Gulf Coast has about 571 million barrels of oil for use in
emergencies.
It is only the second time since the emergency reserve was created after the 1973-74 Arab
oil embargo that oil has been ordered taken to deal with supply problems. The other was in
1991 when 21 million barrels was drawn just before and during the Persian Gulf War.
While hailed by many Democrats, the action was denounced by Republican lawmakers and
GOP presidential nominee George W. Bush, who called it a favor to Gore "to achieve
short-term political gain."
The reserve should be used only "in case of war or major disruption of energy supplies," not
to manipulate prices, said Bush, echoing some GOP congressional leaders.
Speaking to Pennsylvania Republicans by satellite Saturday from Orlando, Fla., Bush
accused Gore of using the reserve as a personal "strategic political reserve."
Critics said the oil reserve was created to address acute supply disruptions or other
emergencies that do not now exist. Bush said use of the oil now could leave the country
without an adequate reserve when needed.
Refining companies that obtain the oil are obligated to return oil to the reserve, plus an
additional amount, before the end of next year.
Richardson cited Energy Department figures that show distillate inventories - heating oil and
diesel fuel - are 25 million barrels, or about 19 percent, below normal nationwide.
Richardson said the oil will be offered for bid beginning Monday with releases to continue
for a month. He did not rule out further action later if necessary.
While even a 30-million barrel infusion of government oil into the market is small - about
the amount used in two days by the nation's refineries - the impact of government action
could be significant if it signals that the government is ready to intervene, some energy
specialists said.
"We're projecting that by Halloween the crude prices will be $25 to $27," said Bill
O'Grady, an energy analyst at A.G. Edwards & Sons in St. Louis. On Friday, November
crude was trading down $1.32 at $32.68 a barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange.
"Down the line it could help some," said Wilfrid L. Kohl of Johns Hopkins School of
Advanced International Studies. He said "perception" often plays a role in dictating future
oil prices.
canamami
(9/23/2000; 11:16:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 37301)
Reply To Town Crier - Re Post# 37253
TC,
The absence of the 30-coin minimum is good news indeed! Some posters - ipse dixit - would be deterred by or have trouble making or financing such an order. To play on some of the Forum's early language: baby steps precede giant's steps.
Bon fin de semaine, tout le monde.
canamami
(9/23/2000; 10:59:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 37300)
Happy Birthday, USAGOLD! and Don Coxe's Call and "Now or Never"
http://www.jonesheward.com/commentary.cfm
Happy Birthday, USAGOLD!!!! It has been an interesting and educative two years of camaraderie and education... long may it continue.
MK, re your dealings with the various bureaucracies, remember this: Government couldn't make a gravity waterfall run properly. Hopefully, CPM will be able to expand its operations to Canada.
Re Don Coxe's call, at about minute 19:35 there is a discussion about energy which segues into a discussion concerning (as I understand it) whether monetary growth in the US flows from a drawing down of Eurodollar accounts (Coxe's theory) or whether this is driven by the Fed. My interpretation is that Coxe's position stated earlier in the call (that an increase in oil prices will not set off a period of inflation) is conditional on his position concerning the drawing down of Eurodollar accounts being correct. In the previous week's call, he addressed what looked like or could be a breakdown in the inverse relationship between the Euro and the US tech sector.
My question: If European money and Eurodollars stop coming into the US tech sector, will it keep coming into the US (though in other sectors) or will a greater portion of it go elsewhere? What will be the implications of such a shift? Is it possible that, for all its weaknesses and trade imbalances, the US is still the place to have one's money?
The weakness in the Euro, IMHO, may not be politically sustainable. Is it time for the rubber to hit the road (hopefully Michelins instead of Firestones) for oil's desire for a counterweight to the dollar? In other words, will the Euroland leaders say to the Arabs and other oil producers: "It's now or never, if you want this new currency to work, give us Euro oil settlement now, or this project will fail and you will be stuck with the dollar for the rest of your lifetimes"?
I have a brutal work weekend and week ahead, and will not have access to a computer for posting, though I will lurk on occasion to see what's being posted. I see that Trail Guide will be posting, and perhaps the Stranger, MK, Oro and the many other heavyweights will join in to make this a great birthday posting celebration.
Trail Guide
(9/23/2000; 9:46:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 37299)
(No Subject)
Hello everyone!
I'm going to be out a little while (few hours) and then return to this board untill very late. Hope to catch up on a number of overdue comments to old posters and new ones (smile). Great ongoing work Black Blade.
JavaMan
(9/23/2000; 9:42:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 37298)
Sir Black Blade, Lady Leigh, and All...
As I understand it, the SPR draw-down is actually a swap in that at some (undetermined?) time in the future, the refiners will have to replenish the inventories they took, presumably at the lower prices expected in the future.
I wonder what the impact will be of taking that supply off the market as it goes back into the SPR. Hmmmm.
Also, consider what will happen if those "lower prices" fail to materialize,
(a) to the price of oil in the future, and,
(b) to the SPR...
if/when the SPR is "running on Empty".
Gold Trail Update
(9/23/2000; 9:26:11MDT - Msg ID:37297)
The Gold Trail Discussion has been Updated
The Gold Trail Discussion has been updated. Click on the link to read the latest updates.
Black Blade
(9/23/2000; 8:28:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 37296)
Barron's Article
$40-a-Barrel Oil?
But prices should slide by next year
By Cheryl Strauss Einhorn
Demand is outpacing supply. That's why the price of crude has been hitting 10-year highs almost daily. That's also why there's a 25% chance that, even with sales from federal reserves, oil will reach $40 a barrel this year before
falling into the high 20s in 2001. That's also why the U.S. can expect rolling mini-crises in the near future, even though the impact on the overall economy shouldn't be too great. Essentially, demand is keeping pace with GDP growth. But supplies haven't kept up.
Three years ago, when Asia's economies collapsed, so did demand. But since supplies lag demand, it took a while for production to shrink in line with consumption. In the intervening period, the world became awash in oil. Storage tanks filled up, refineries were idled and prices plummeted. At around $10 a barrel, crude actually traded at prices below many companies' cost of production. Producers eventually reined in supplies, and when demand began rebounding, they didn't begin boosting output again. Instead, they waited to see if the recovery was sustainable and they also waited for their cash flows to improve. Now capital expenditures are up.
Oil rigs in operation total 200, up from a low of 110, but way below the average of 330 for most of the 1990s. Part of the problem is that not many rigs are available; many are already busy looking for natural gas. In fact, the
natural-gas rig count stands at 818, a record high that clearly will keep needed equipment from the oil fields, for a while. It will take time -- perhaps a year -- before increased drilling brings new stocks to the market. By then, the growth in worldwide demand should have slowed, largely in reaction to high energy prices. Between now and then, OPEC has promised to add 800,000 barrels to its current daily output of 29 million, and by yearend, analysts project, the group will further boost output by the same amount.
Still, that won't be enough. Seasonally, daily demand picks up by three million barrels as winter begins in the northern hemisphere. Furthermore, consumers have begun to hoard supplies. Domestic demand for heating oil is up 10%, versus last year's level, and well above the average of 2.5% for the past two years. But this makes little sense because people aren't heating their homes now; instead, they're simply stocking up because of increasingly irresponsible statements by politicians about how high prices may be this winter. Yet the current energy crisis isn't just about total supplies, it's also about the supply chain itself.
Little new storage has been built in the past 30 years. Thus the difference between a full global tank and an empty one has shrunk as demand has grown. In the early 1990s, the world could store 20 days of oil supplies. Now, global capacity is only 10 days, and with the current supply shortage, the world has much less than that put away. In addition, tankers and refineries are running close to flat out. This is why the sale of 30 million barrels from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve -- something the government agreed to do Friday and the rumor of which was a factor in November crude's settling at $32.68 -- is a bad idea. Refiners will now either have to stop taking foreign crude or store Uncle Sam's.
Unfortunately, the market is in "backwardation" -- meaning supplies for current delivery are dearer than those for future sale. Such a price environment makes it not only expensive, but uneconomic, to put oil into storage. Refiners would lose money.
The world is stuck for now and that's why we've seen "rolling mini-crises," as Goldman Sach's director of commodity research, Steve Strongin, puts it. We saw heating oil prices spike last winter when we had a cold-snap in the Northeast and we saw petroleum briefly command $100 a barrel in the Midwest this summer when a pipe burst in Michigan. Still the adverse impact on gross domestic product has been minimal. Strongin estimates it has cut GDP by 0.25-0.75 of a percentage point, much of which we've already felt. "This should lead to a moderate slowdown in growth, but not a global recession," he says. Expect more volatility ahead. But by next year, as new supplies come to market and demand growth eases, prices should fall, to an average of around $27 per barrel.
E-mail: cheryl.einhorn@barrons.com.
Black Blade: Good article but still have a few minor disagreements which her conclusions. She's beginning to come around since she would not have made similar statements a couple of weeks ago. First of all, I don't expect to see oil prices pull back unless we see a global recession take hold. The supply is not increasing, and refinery capacity is going to be a problem. She's dead on about the rig count and that most rigs tied up in NG exploration are not coming back on line for oil! I will say it again – NG is going to become the bigger story before this winter and coming spring is through! And yes, backwardation is a serious problem as I said before because the refineries don't want the political-favor SPR oil with potentially falling prices.
Bonedaddy
(9/23/2000; 7:37:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 37295)
Woke up to a foot of snow this morning :)
Black Blade, Phoenix and others already know this, but...
A point to remember about refining capacity, currently at 95%. 95% is wide open. There isn't another 5% to be had. This 5% is maintenance downtime, or a process bottleneck, or a labor dispute somewhere.
Sometimes an accident happens.
Prices are higher than ever. There is a shortage brewing.
You can smell it in the air. What does a field boss tell his crew?
"Hold 'er wide open boys! And go till you SEE BLOOD or SMELL s#!&."
Black Blade
(9/23/2000; 7:26:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 37294)
Inside Petroleum News Briefs
High gas prices could cause price controls, taxes
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
High natural gas prices this winter could spawn a renewed call from federal regulators or Congress for price controls or even a windfall profits tax -- measures that would only exacerbate a bad situation, some participants warned Wednesday at the Governors Natural Gas Summit sponsored by the Interstate Oil & Gas Compact Commission.
Yet today's market represents a crisis of prices, not shortages, participants said. The market is working, and natural gas producers are responding to the higher prices by beefing up drilling programs, they said. For the week ended Sept. 15, there were 816 rigs drilling for natural gas working in the US and Canada, up 8 over previous week and up 246 over the same period a year ago. "We are in control of the situation," said Gov. Tony Knowles (D-Alas.). "We are not subject to a foreign cartel controlling supply and price."
Gov. Bob Taft (R-Ohio) added that the worst thing that could happen would be the imposition of price controls. This could turn into a crisis if rigidities are introduced into the market. But gas prices are expected to increase this winter in most of the northern consuming states. Residential gas customers can expect price hikes of 20-40%, and industrial users will be hit with 100% or higher jumps in their bills.
Black Blade: There is a shortage of NG in storage and prices have risen, and will continue to do so. It is inevitable.
Middle-East
~~~~~~~~~
Kuwait took the unusual step Tuesday of issuing a press release to announce its intention to invite neutral observers to witness its drilling operations along its border with Iraq. Recently Iraq complained Kuwait has used horizontal wells to drain reserves on its side of the border, which Kuwait denied. Kuwait said it wants to prove the falsity of the accusations.
Black Blade: Sound like tensions are rising a bit in the ME.
The Invisible Hand
(9/23/2000; 6:27:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 37293)
test
test
wolavka
(09/23/00; 02:18:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 37292)
P.S.
interesting, when asked how do you view gold, "Gold is Viagra."
wolavka
(09/23/00; 02:12:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 37291)
VIEW FROM THE EAST
Met with chinease .
Oil: spr release viewed by them as political and shift of attention off coming problems
mkts in general, all manipulated, focus on shift in and out:
Specific: Gold: Its' time is coming to be manipulated (one sided trading until now) roll over into gold will see frenzy feeding.
Peter Asher
(09/23/00; 01:27:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 37290)
Journeyman (9/22/2000; 8:06:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 37199)
A thousand pardons please my Fellow Knight.
I got so caught up in my raving and ranting over oil and the ME and conspiricies and replies to the others, that I lost track of my response to your heartwaming post this morning.
Coming from the Bard of Free Trade, the prolific and "Jovial" journeyman, that was quite a compliment. I am pleased that I was able to create a virtual reality that enabled some of us to experience what it would be like if we did live in the same town.
Maybe we could all chip in and buy a few hundred acres out in some "God's Country" and build one!
SHIFTY
(09/23/00; 01:06:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 37289)
Peter Asher
I like .999 the brite gold, it glows.
$hifty
SHIFTY
(09/23/00; 00:50:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 37288)
Black Blade
http://www.deadshow.com/
You my like this site. I donated one of the shows,enjoy.
$hifty
Black Blade
(09/23/00; 00:39:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 37287)
SPR News Release, and The Insiders Viewpoint (IN CAPS)
Oil Slides As Clinton OKs SPR Release
By Gene Ramos
NEW YORK (Reuters) –
THE TEMPORARY SHOCK AND PRICE DROP! FROM A MEASLY 30 MILLION BARRELS?
U.S. oil prices tumbled for the second straight day on Friday in the run-up to President Clinton's order for an emergency release from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve for only the second time in history. Clinton ordered 30 million barrels of crude oil to be released over the next thirty days, as rising home energy costs came to the heart of the presidential election debate.
THE POLITICAL FAVOR FOR ZINC MINER, INVENTOR OF THE INTERNET AND OCCIDENTAL OIL-MAN AL GORE
Energy Secretary Bill Richardson's announcement came after markets closed, but prices had already fallen on the growing realization that Clinton would heed presidential nominee Al Gore's call to release strategic reserves. Crude for November delivery fell $1.50 barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange (NYMEX), to hit $32.50, its lowest mark in three weeks. It last traded at $32.65 a barrel, bringing losses in the last two days to more than $2.50. ``I have recommended strongly that we have releases from our Strategic Petroleum Reserve, several releases, six or seven, of 5 million barrels each ... over the next month or so,'' Gore said at a union hall meeting in Pennsylvania.
EXCESS OIL? MAKES NO DIFFERENCE IF IT CAN’T BE PROCESSED AND DELIVERED! SOON REALITY SETS IN! - IT'S ONLY A PSYCHOLOGICAL IMPACT
The release is the equivalent of 1 million barrels per day over a month, equal to 5 percent of the 20 million barrels in crude oil and petroleum products the United States consumes each day. ``The impact ... is much more psychological to the market than anything else,'' said Ken Miller, an oil market analyst at Purvin & Gertz Inc. in Houston.
EXCESS OIL NEEDS TO FIND A HOME – BUT WHERE? STOCKPILES WILL BEGIN TO GET BACKLOGGED AND STILL NOT ENOUGH DISTILLATES COME TO MARKET FAST ENOUGH
The impact of the SPR release could be increased as it will coincide with fresh barrels producers from the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC), whose latest output increase of 800,000 barrels per day (bpd), or three percent, will start hitting the markets on October 1.
A LOAN! WHAT GOOD IS THAT? THEY COULD REPLACE THAT LOAN TODAY, TOMORROW, NEXT WEEK, NEXT YEAR……., THEY DON’T NEED MORE OIL! THEY NEED MORE REFINING CAPACITY!
``That may be positive in softening prices,'' Miller said. Under the release oil from the reserve would being effectively loaned to oil companies who would replace the borrowed oil at a later date with more barrels once prices fell.
SOCCER MOMS NEED CHEAP GASOLINE TO DRIVE THEIR SPAWN AROUND TOWN AND GO TO THE "BIG BAD PRICE GOUGING OIL COMPANY PROTESTS", AND BESIDES, WE DON’T NEED NO STEEKIN’ NATIONAL SECURITY!
Gore's Republican rival, George W. Bush, has denounced the Democrat's proposal, calling it a political ploy and saying the plan could endanger national security.
WHAT DO WE CARE? YOU INFIDELS ARE JUST ENTERTAINMENT FOR US.
On Friday, Kuwait Oil Minister Sheikh Saud Nasser al-Sabah said on Friday he would welcome a release of U.S. emergency petroleum reserves if this helped to stabilize the energy market. ``We are not going to interfere in something that is an internal American issue,'' he told reporters. ``But we welcome it if it leads to market stability.'' Earlier this week, OPEC signaled it wanted to wait and see the impact of the additional barrels coming Oct. 1 before taking new steps to ease high prices. In the share markets, oil and energy-related shares moved lower. No.1 Exxon Mobil Corp (NYSE:XOM) was down 2/16 at $86-3/16 while No.2 Chevron Corp (NYSE:CHV) was off $1-1/8 at $84.
Peter Asher
(09/23/00; 00:25:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 37286)
@Black Blade, Shifty, RossL and HappyGold Lucky
Re Purity
You may all know this already but consider the pupose for diluting gold with copper, is to harden it so that it won't wear out in circulation. Note that the most widly circulated Krugerand is the lowest in purity and the least attractive in color.
Therefore, when choosing by purity per -se, one could consider what role their coins will play in the future they envision. If there is anticiation of an economic meltdown that would result in gold as currency again, than hardened coins may win out.
However for storage of value, long term I have switched over to .99. the last coins I got from MK were Philharmonics, brilliant color and also the highest currency value based on the legal tender aspect of the face stamping. I believe that these are tender for about $100 vs. $50 for the 1 oz. eagle.
ViewYesterday's Discussion.
Permission to reprint is hereby granted where the USAGOLD name is cited along with our web address, mailing address and phone number. For electronic reproductions, citing the post heading and the http://www.usagold.com/cpmforum/ website address as the source is sufficient.
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