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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 11/23/2000
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

(Yesterday's Discussion.)

PH in LA (11/23/00; 23:22:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 42113)
Headline: Duisenberg agrees that presenting the Euro as a rival to the dollar was a mistake
http://www.elpais.es/p/d/temas/euro/11eur18.htm


Has anyone seen reference to the following (that appeared in El Pais-Madrid on November 18) in the American press. Of course, there hasn't been interest in much of anything other than the election lately, either. Comments invited:


Headline: Duisenberg agrees that presenting the Euro as a rival to the dollar was a mistake

The strength of the Euro as a currency of international use is a gradual and slow process and the hopes of those who sponsored the European currency as a rival to the dollar have not been realized. This was the off-hand message that the presidente of the European Central Bank tried to develope yesterday (Nov. 17). Duisenberg, in a banking congress in Frankfort which was being celebrated under the theme "the rebirth of Europe". The ridiculous rhetoric that some have used describing the Euro as a rival to the dollar gave rise to false hopes" said the person whose is responsible for the monetary policy of the European Union.

The Euro, in any case, had a bad day yesterday. The European foreign exchange markets marked an official value of .8513 dollars versus .8557 although in the afternoon it fell to .848. Duisenberg recommended to not give excessive importance to the impact of the internationalization of the Euro in monetary policy and noted that the ECB has a neutral position concerning foreign use of the currency.

Financial experts in Frankfurt tried to guess the interpretation that the markets will give to the decision of the ECB to publish their internal statistical analysis with the purpose of improving the understanding of their economic policy and to defend against acusations of secrecy. The first figures will appear in the monthly bulletin for this coming December.

Duisenberg, who claimed to be in a hurry and refused to answer questions, referred to partial information concerning the international role of the Euro since its birth almost two years ago. In private transactions the dollar continues to have the main role in the payment of goods and services and it should not be hoped that quick changes will take place concerning this situation, although the Euro plays a central role in transactions between residents of the European zone.

In the public sector, the Euro constitutes 13% of official reserves, in accordance with statistics of the IMF. The IMF has decided that the basket of five currencies that make up the SDR will also include the Euro.


ThaiGold (11/23/00; 22:39:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 42112)
Clinton's Vietnam Ego Trip
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2000/11/23/92234.shtml
[snip]
It took 26 C-5 transport aircraft, 33 C-17 aircraft, four C-141s, ten KC-10s, and one C-130 for the military to transport Bill Clinton, his ego, and his entourage around Vietnam last week.
A retired military source told NewsMax.com that Clinton's trip may have tied up so many aircraft that it affected defense readiness in Korea...
...How much did all of this cost U.S. taxpayers?
A cool $65 million...
[unsnip]



Peter Asher (11/23/00; 22:25:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 42111)
ThaiGold @All

I think the bottom line is in the answer to --Which scenario do the "Men behind the Curtain" want?

If Gore wins via all this recognized manipulation, sore loser , image degrading shenanigans, we will have an ongoing political and economic disaster amongst a disgruntled and demoralized population.

Therefore, "They" would see that Bush prevailed.

Unless, of course, they WANT an ongoing political and economic disaster amongst a disgruntled and demoralized population.

ThaiGold (11/23/00; 22:19:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 42110)
Attn: Bascom -- Best Dimple Explanation
http://www.rense.com/general5/dimples.htm
http://www.rense.com/general5/dimples.htm
==================================
[snip]
A guy had been in Fla not too long ago. His group was working in a warehouse where about 150 voting machines were being stored.

Of course they ended up "playing" with the machines, and it seems that if more than one ballot was inserted, the first one was "punched"..the second one had a hanging chad, while the third one had a "dimple"....
[unsnip]


Bascom Toadvine (11/23/00; 21:56:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 42109)
Dimples in Florida
How do we know the dimples weren't on the ballots when they were handed out?

Bascom Toadvine (11/23/00; 21:50:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 42108)
Al Fulchino Msg #42089
Hi Al,
It's me Henri using my alter ego :-) Yes , I'm away from home again. When I originally posted tthe first 11 of Washington's rules, I didn't realize I'd started a controversey. They did seem a bit advanced for a 14 yr old GW. Anyhow the tome I got in Valley Forge from which they were quoted did not say he composed them...merely that he had "written" them. Now I don't feel so bad about passing them on. It's not as if George Washington wouldn't have done it.

BTW, Interesting about the tides....blew me away...still reading.
Henri

ThaiGold (11/23/00; 21:47:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 42107)
Attn: Peter Asher
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2000/11/23/183228.shtml
Chickens aren't hatched yet. Beware.
The above (link) commentary suggests the "Fix is in".
For Gore, and will catch Bush off guard and blindsided.


ET (11/23/00; 21:20:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 42106)
Joseph Stromberg - Chalmers Johnson
http://www.antiwar.com/stromberg/s112100.html

From the article;

"Early in the interview, Johnson remarks that
leaders of both parties now contending for the
presidency believe in the same US world
mission. The US elite "seeks to extend its might
into every corner of the earth" to bring about a
particular "world economic system," whatever
this costs other countries.3 I will only add that,
whatever else this economic world system may
be, it can hardly be seen as the logical result of
private property, markets, and trade, as such.
Notions like neo-mercantilist imperialism come
quickly to mind.

"Yet every empire has run into trouble, in time.
The late Soviet Union fell because of "imperial
over-extension," not because of "competition
with the USA or an incapacity for reform" (my
emphasis). But America – one assumes
Johnson means US leaders – has "little talent
for change," yet thinks itself "immune to
Russia's fate." Forgetful of historical pattern,
US leaders remain "arrogant, overweening,
self-confident."

"It is a matter of reaping what US leaders have
sowed, says Johnson. But "our politicians,
lulled by absurd wealth, are third class." Thus
the US "props up its power with cruise
missiles, aircraft carriers and financial
manipulations instead of resorting to
diplomacy, development aid, and international
law." At the heart of this super power "without
brains" stands "the most corrupt capital in the
western hemisphere." Its disappearance off the
earth would hardly be noticed in, say,
California."


ET (11/23/00; 20:52:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 42105)
Arianna Huffington
http://www.ariannaonline.com/columns/files/112000.html

From the article;

"At the same time, voters in Utah and Oregon passed by enormous
margins -- 69 and 66 percent, respectively -- initiatives designed to
make it harder for police to seize the property of suspected drug
offenders. Just as significantly, all proceeds from forfeited assets will
now be used to fund drug treatment or public education programs
instead of to fill the coffers of law enforcement agencies. Both
measures were backed by people from across the ideological
spectrum concerned with property rights, civil rights and racial justice."

ThaiGold (11/23/00; 20:23:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 42104)
Monetary and Financial Reform in Latin America based on Silver
http://www.plata.com.mx/plata/silver.htm
...
..
.
Silver Coinage:
Basis for the formation of a Latin American
Common Market in Century 21
============================================
[snip]
Monetary and Financial Reform in Latin America based on Silver:

Our plan is simple and feasible; it takes advantage of impulses which are
natural to the human being, impulses which have no frontiers. Nature loves
what is simple and generally destroys what is complicated. Our plan does not
require costly parliaments for its implementation. It will not cause regional
dissatisfaction. It will not injure nationalist feelings, but rather, reinforce
patriotism. It functions in accord with laws which govern economic behaviour
of the individual, in a quiet but powerful fashion, just as water flows downhill.
It is made up of the following measures:
1. Win the consent of the various mints of Latin America, to coin pure silver
currency with weights of one ounce, ½ ounce, ¼ ounce, 1/10 ounce and 1/20
ounce. These coins already exist in Mexico and can be reproduced in the
other countries of Latin America, with the sme characteristics but with their
own national symbols. The mints will consent to coin, at cost, all silver which
is presented to them for coinage.
2. These coins must be despositable in the banks of the country, which are to
give in return receipts for the quantity of silver they have received, and which
will be returned to the depositor, with interest at the term contracted, in silver.
The banks are to effect silver loans with the silver in their vaults, at terms
similar to the terms at which they have received silver on deposit. It is vital
that legislation provide banking regulations in the sense that there is to be no
"borrowing short and lending long" in silver, since this practice is absolutely
fatal to banking, in that it causes inevitable illiquidity.
3. The introduction of silver to the economies of our brother countries of Latin
America, is to be in parallel to the existence of our present paper currencies.
All our paper currencies are to continue operating as usual. Silver will be
adopted without any problem. We are simply offering the peoples of our
countries the opportunity to use it to do business, to save, to contract loans,
etc., as an alternative to seeking refuge in the Dollar.
Benefits
By implementing these extremely simple measures, we shall achieve important
benefits:
a) The people of Latin America will begin to save in silver, and will restore to
this noble metal a use which it has had since time immemorial.
b) The monetization of silver, means the privatization of money. Central
banks cease to be the suppliers of discredited paper money, and the miners
of Latin America assume the extremely important role of purveyors of
currency.
c) The common currency of Latin America becomes automatically the
world´s best currency, and wins worldwide acceptance.
d) The remonetization of silver means that its price rises, and benefits the
miners.
e) The people of Latin America are already willing to save silver without the
benefit of earning interest. (All silver coinage disappears immediately) How
much more willing to save silver will they be, if they are given the opportunity
of depositing their silver in savings accounts denominated in silver, in the
banks which are most responsible and enjoy the best reputations? Internal
savings surge and foreign capital ceases to enjoy a privileged position, and
becomes only ancillary to popular, national savings.
f) The banks are able to attract long term deposits in silver and at low interest
rates, and are able to make long term loans in silver at low, real interest rates,
thus avoiding the subordination to foreign interests which is implicit in Dollar
loans.
g) The unfortunate link between exports and stability is destroyed: lower
exports no longer signify monetary and financial collapse. National savings
can be channeled to general productive activites, and not primarily to export
activities.
h) Any silverized country can import merchandise or machinery for the total
of its exports, and will not be forced to import only a fraction of exports.
Presently, a surplus of exports is imperative in order to obtain Dollars for the
reserves, which are used in turn to purchase United States Treasury Bonds.
Even the poorest countries must finance the United States Government by
purchasing its bonds.
i) The spectre of devaluation disappears, and with it a curse of the Twentieth
Century for Latin America. Silver currency has its own intrinsic value, and
once monetized, silver will no longer be subject to the vagaries of foreign
industry. If foreign industry wishes to have silver, it will have to pay for it a
price sufficient to persuade the holders of silver to hand it over. In other
words, there will be an important internal market in Latin America, and not
only an external market, as at present.
j) All the various silver coins, wherever they have been minted, will circulate
freely and without distinctions as to origin, all over Latin America. Peruvian
and Bolivian coins will circulate in Mexico, and Mexican coins will be found in
Patagonia and Chile.
k) On the basis of a common currency, we shall have created immediately a
true common market.
l) Since the monetary substance will be identical, rates of interest in Latin
America will exhibit a trend to harmonization and equalization, at real rates.
Capital transfers and commercial transactions will cease to threaten the
obsolete requirements for Dollar reserves. Capital will flow to and through all
parts of Latin America, and commerce between nations will flourish.
ll) Politically, patriotism and stability will take hold, since devaluations have
for decades threatened not only our economies, but the stability of our
governments.
m) We achieve Diversity within Unity, through the medium of a true currency,
the silver coin of intrinsic value.
n) Most importantly, Latin America finds the way to a bright future of solid
growth, of enduring prosperity, and of new pride in its discovery of its own
strength and creative power. This new sentiment of pride, perhaps the most
important sentiment any nation can cultivate, brushes aside those wounds
which a century of experiments in paper money have caused us.
[unsnip]


Tree of Life (11/23/00; 19:41:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 42103)
Global Warming
It is an undeniable fact that atmospheric carbon content is increasing annually at approximately 3 giga tons per annum. An approximate scientific tabulation is as follows:

Source Emission Resumption
Deforestation 1.5 – 2.0
Terrestrial Activities 100 102-103
Fossil Fuels & Cement 6.5
Surface Ocean 90 92
Total 198.5 195

Of the current atmospheric 750GTC we are increasing at a rate of 0.4% per annum. Bearing in mind, real human population growth only began at an accelerated pace in 1830 when we crossed the first billion people mark. It took us only 169 years to reproduced the entire world's population 5 times when from the dawn of man to the first billion was almost an eternity.

To be honest, do scientists really know much about global warming? No! they don't

Was the atmospheric carbon concentration the major cause for observed warming? No! they cannot be sure.

Can the scientists not sound the alarm? No! their responsibility dictate them to do us.

Who are the scientists responsible to? They are responsible to the foundations and endowment; the ones that fund them to do these type of research.

What is the effect of the Kyoto Protocol? The signatory parties to the Protocol should reduce on average 5.2% of emissions to those prevailing in 1990.

What does that means in simple layman terms?

Let's us first look at today's energy usage as compared to those in 1990.

1990 1999 Changes

USA 1930.8 2204.9 14.2%
Canada 202.1 227.8 12.7%
Mexico 99.0 124.6 25.9%
Total 2231.9 2557.3 14.6%

France 220.9 252.4 14.3%
Germany 351.8 330.9 -5.9%
Greece 24.0 28.8 20.0%
Hungary 27.1 24.0 -11.4%
Iceland 1.1 1.5 36.4%
Ireland 8.5 13.0 52.9%
Italy 149.8 165.8 10.7%
Netherlands 76.4 83.7 9.6%
Norway 22.0 24.7 12.3%
Poland 105.3 92.6 -12.1%
Portugal 14.7 22.1 50.3%
Spain 89.0 119.1 33.8%
Sweden 43.1 42.9 -0.5%
Switzerland 23.5 25.0 6.4%
Turkey 49.5 76.2 53.9%
United Kingdom 212.6 222.4 4.6%
Other Europe 48.2 34.8 -27.8%
Total Europe 1741.4 1800.8 3.4%

Australia 89.0 102.8 15.5%
Japan 428.3 507.4 18.5%

TOTAL WORLD 7855.7 8533.6 8.6%

That countries like USA & France will need to cut their present day energy consumption by 20% to achieve the standard.

Will it be politically possible to achieve the Kyoto Protocol in every signatory country? No! But for sure, there will be legislation to move every developed country towards that goal. Then energy and environmental issues will be formally incorporated into the risks assessment system of the capital markets. The issue, be it true or false will permeate through the economy and society.

The ultimate goal is energy to control the nations and food to control the people.








Canuck (11/23/00; 19:02:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 42102)
Goldcorp
FYI,

In case anyone is interested CanWest (Global) is running a half-hour documentary on Goldcorp Sat. Nov. 25 07:30pm eastern.

I believe it's entitled "The rush in Red Lake" (or facsimile of).

Canuck.

Peter Asher (11/23/00; 17:17:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 42101)
Journey(Super)man (11/23/2000; 12:27:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 42093)

Death in the family,alone with the kids, Making Thaksgiving Dinner: And writing the above and other posts.

INCREDIBLE!

Perplexed (11/23/00; 14:45:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 42100)
(No Subject)
The Enviroment How much is a salmon worth?

How many thousands of dollars is a salmon worth? That is the question in this part of the world. (Snake River Valley of Idaho) The White and Salmon rivers confluence at Lewiston, Idaho-Clarkston, Washington to create the lower Snake. There are now 4 dams in Washington State on the lower Snake river, all producing electricity, impounding water for irrigation, and creating a river depth necessary for barge traffic.

Needless to say a fish caught in a hydro turbin can expect a very short live cycle, so the solution is to breach the dams, right. Well to the Nez Perce Indian tribe, The River Wild Organization, Sierra Club and other assorted Inviro and political organizations, the answer is a resounding YES,that is all they can see.
But wait a minute! How about those of us who depend upon the impounded water for our well being. Lewiston Idaho is a seaport thanks to these dams. The Lower Snake, confluences with the Columbia at the Tri Cities area of Eastern Washington, so if the dams are removed the river will no longer support barge traffic; barges which very efficiently, economically and in an enviro friendly mannner transports much of the wheat produced in Idaho, parts of Oregon and Montana to Portland Oregon. This means that trucks will be required to do what these barges now accomplish, trucks numbering into the hundreds of thousands, pumping diesel exhaust into the air, and clogging an already inadaquate road system.
And this is to "save" a wild salmon run yet the only way a wild salmon may be identified from the hatchery fish which co-mingle with them, is by clipping the forsal fin before the hatchlings are release into the system. Last summer, a hiker with a video camera, happend into an area where employees of the Oregon game and fish department were destroying tens of thousands of the hatchery fish which had managed to get by the dams. Very embarrasing when it hit the papers.
Clinton, before he leaves offices, is attempting to lock up between eight and ten million acrea of Idaho into a permenant wilderness designation. Wolves introduced by the Federal government a few years back, are protected even if they are caught killing live stock, and are known, even now to be a major menace to the deer and elk herds. Reintroduction of Grizzly Bears, is expectied next year, and is not any more popular than the wolves.

These agendas are being imposed upon citizens who enjoy very limited political power, by groups with stong backing, and are not required to live with the consequences.

AND YOU WONDER WHY ENVIRONMENTALISM IS A DIRTY WORD.


Still Perplexed

justamereBear (11/23/00; 14:40:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 42099)
Javaman

My sincere condolences to you, your wife, and family. As you say, "until you met a man with no feet".

The good lord generally only sends problems that we can somehow deal with, and you seem to be doing well. You are providing lifelong "warm and fuzzy" memories of family and hearth for your children, even during a time of adversity. May god bless.

j'Bear



PorterSweden (11/23/00; 14:28:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 42098)
Harmony
Thanks to all for your opinions on Harmony. I shall be buying.



Peter Asher (11/23/00; 14:26:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 42097)
This should nail the lid on it!
Galearis, J-Man, I'm out the door to TGD Will respond to Glbl Wmg

Court Won't Order Dade Recount


Updated 3:03 PM ET November 23, 2000

By LINDA DEUTSCH, AP Special Correspondent

TALLAHASSEE, Fla.(AP) - The Florida Supreme Court on
Thursday refused to order Miami-Dade County officials to resume
a handcount of presidential election ballots, dealing a blow to Al
Gore's efforts to cut into George W. Bush's lead in the state.

Gore had asked the court in an emergency Thanksgiving Day appeal
to restart ballot counting in the county, which they said was "being
frustrated by a deliberate campaign of delay and intimidation of
local officials."

"The writ is denied without prejudice. No motion for rehearing is allowed," the court said in
a statement read by spokesman Craig Waters.

The court's action means the lawyers can refile on different legal grounds or can take their
case to another court.

The justices conferred by conference call, interrupting their Thanksgiving holiday to
consider the petition by the Democratic presidential candidate.

Miami-Dade, the largest county in the state, suspended a full manual recount after the
Florida court set a Sunday deadline for counties to report adjusted vote totals.

Requesting court action, Gore's campaign said in its filing, "Determining the will of the
voters cannot be frustrated by the whim of local officials."

Bush campaign spokeswoman Mindy Tucker brushed off the Gore appeal. "The court has
already extended the statutory deadline for an additional 12 days, and now Al Gore wants
them to extend it yet again. It seems Al Gore wants the court to keep extending the deadline
until he can count the votes enough times to change the result."

The Gore filing came the morning after Bush lawyers moved on another legal front, asking
the U.S. Supreme Court to overturn the Florida Supreme Court and bar the use of hand
counted ballots.

"The outcome of the election for the presidency of the United States may hang in the
balance," the Bush lawyers said in urging the high court to take up what it said is essentially
a state issue.

Miami-Dade Canvassing board officials made the stunning announcement Wednesday that it
was impossible to complete their task by the Sunday deadline set by the Florida court and
they were abandoning counting altogether.

Gore's brief had suggested that the court consider giving that county an extension of time if a
full recount could not be completed by the deadline.

"If no action is taken," the brief said, "the Miami-Dade Board would be allowed to achieve
what this court, just two days ago, held that the secretary of state could not do: reject the
ballots of thousands of Floridians for reasons of mere administrative convenience."

The 29-page Gore brief alleged that that board members were intimidated by an escalating
campaign of intimidation, which began with personal attacks at board members and election
personnel.

"Scores of noisy demonstrators engulfed the counting floors. Many were yelling and some
pounding on the doors and windows in close proximity to the election department's staff,"
the brief said. "Democratic personnel were physically assaulted within yards of the vote
counting while in the lobby below prominent Republicans launched vituperative attacks on
the Canvassing Board members and its staff."

The importance of the hand recount in Miami-Dade was indicated by results of a sample
recount, the lawyers said, citing initial figures that gave an additional 116 votes to George
Bush and 272 more votes to Gore.

At the very least, the Democrats said the canvassing board should count as many votes as
possible by the deadline.

"To be sure, some level of inconvenience is presented, but surely urgency and public
necessity warrant the additional staffing and longer hours that may be needed to correctly
determine our president," it concluded. "... the board's refusal to act is indefensible."



JavaMan (11/23/00; 13:35:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 42096)
All...
http://www.mises.org/fullstory.asp?control=552&FS=Destroying+the+Rule+of+Law
I have just put the turkey in the oven, started to play a Mozart piano concerto, and am sipping a nice chardonnay.

Regarding the global warming discussion, G.E. Griffin provides terrific insight on the issue of global warming in his book titled "The Creature from Jekyll Island" with his coverage of "The Report from Iron Mountain".

On page 525 concerning the validity of the report he says: "In the final analysis, it makes little difference. The important point is that The Report from Iron Mountain, whether written as a tink-tank study or a political satire, explains the reality that surrounds us. Regardless of its origin, the concepts presented in it are now being implemented in almost every detail. All one has to do is hold the Report in one hand and the daily newspaper in the other to realize that every major trend in American life is conforming to the blueprint. So many things that otherwise are incomprehensible suddenly become clear: foreign add, wasteful spending, the destruction of American industy, a job corps, gun control, a national police force, the apparent demise of Soviet power, a UN army, disarmament, a world bank, a world money, the surrender of national independence through treaties, and the ecology hysteria. The Report from Iron Mountain is an accurate summary of the plan that has already created our present. It is now shaping our future."

JavaMan: It includes sections on "The New World Order", "America is the Target", "A New Definition of Peace", "A Sophisticated Form of Slavery", "Finding a Credible Global Threat", "The Environmental-Pollution Model", "Environmentalism- A Substitute for War" and more.

Must Reading!

Reminds me of a ‘70s spoof on James Bond movies, "Our Man Flint" starring James Coburn. The plot was world domination by a group of scientists. In the end, they offer Coburn a position in their organization and he turns them down. His response..."because its your idea gentlemen...not mine." and he proceeded to single-handedly dismantle their operation.


Shifting gears...from the link above: "He was impeached but not convicted, which truly placed him above the law. Is there any wonder that his understudy, Al Gore, brazenly attempts to commit vote fraud in broad daylight, in front of television cameras for all the world to see? Most Americans, in their ignorance and laziness, have become indifferent to the rule of law. If such indifference continues the tyranny and criminality of the Clinton years will pale in comparison to the destruction of freedom that is yet to come."

I tried to make very much the same point in a recent post. I also stated my position that while I don't believe Bush to be the salvation of the U.S., the single greatest benefit of him winning the election is that he will, most likely, name three or four justices to the Supreme Court and that they will be conservative rather than liberal. The recent behavior of the Florida Supreme Court should be sufficient to illustrate the far reaching implications for our nation.

Consider, if you will, our country's Pledge of Allegiance: I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation "UNDER GOD" (my emphasis), indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

The Old Testament is full of examples of what happened to God's chosen people when they "forgot" that they were "under God". God "abandoned" them and left them to experience the consequences of their actions. I pray that we, as a nation, don't repeat this folly.


RE: Thanksgiving, I would like to say, every one of us has a great deal to be thankful for even though for me, personally, it seems to be a time of great loss. Years ago, my father died the day before Thanksgiving, then our dog, a Great Dane, died on Thanksgiving day...found by our daughter, and just yesterday, my father in-law died, so today, I will be cooking the turkey for my children while my wife is away in another country attending her fathers funeral.

All the more reason to be thankful for what it is that we do have. I am continually reminded of the story of the man who complained that he had no shoes...until he saw the man who had no feet.

As we watch the current events unfold, I encourage all of you to contemplate all that you do have and be thankful...and consider just who it is that you should be giving thanks to.

God bless you all and happy Thanksgiving.



DaveC (11/23/2000; 12:48:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 42095)
Mount Everest Losing Altitude Due to Global Wamring. YIKES!
Run for the hills! No wait. The hills are losing altitude. What is a poor boy to do? Sing in a rock and roll band!

Global B***S%%%!

BEIJING-- Mount Everest, the world's highest peak, is shrinking as a result of global warming, China's XINHUA wire reported late Wednesday.

Researchers at the State Bureau of Surveying and Mapping discovered that the thickness of snow on Everest's peak had decreased during the last 30 years, the agency said.

MORE

Using a global positioning satellite system (GPS), researchers also discovered that Everest is moving between 2.4 and 2.8 inches at an azimuth angle of 54 degrees [northeast] every year!

Surveys over the past 30 years show that obvious changes have occurred in the area through crustal vertical movement, and experts said that these changes are the result of a large rupture on the northern side of the Mt, XINHUA reported.

Researches also showed that these changes correspond to seismological periods.

Researchers found that the snow cover on the top of Everest has been descending over the past three decades. "This has a connection with global warming," they said.

Previously, China carried out surveys of Mt Everest and the area to the north of the mountain three times in 1966, 1975 and 1992. END

So maybe it's just flattening out!

BTW, where are the oceans rising? I was in southwest Turkey two years ago, visiting some ancient cities near Ephasus. These places WERE built very close to the Med shore. Now they are two miles away.

Maybe that's what happened! All the water left the Med and went someplace else!

Nothing but fear mongering to scare the masses into giving up their lifestyle.

Fitting on turkey day.

Go Lions!


Knallgold (11/23/2000; 12:29:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 42094)
Dec. delivery,wolavka
Bill Murphy mentioned months ago in a GATA message that someone will take delivery big time before(?) the election,Bill had the information personally from the guy,allegedly a 100million man.Bill also asked us if we knew people of the same stature because he could mediate a meeting with his anonymous rich.Never heard anything new in this story again.

Some Goldshares showed heavy volumes recently,Don_L.'s option cube shows only very few paper left after Dec.option expiry,and the ceiling seems to be at the 350-400.Maybe we will face a nice runup very soon,probably good for a short time speculation.But remember FOA's words that the possibility of a sustained bull move in the paper Gold market is 10%.

Hey wolavka,is it you who was mentioned by Bill Murphy?Are you gonna screw Comex ?


Journeyman (11/23/2000; 12:27:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 42093)
Environmental optimism @Galearis, MrGresham, Peter Asher, ALL
http://www.usagold.com/LureofAbstract.html

Hi Galearis!

We are attempting to understand not only gold here, but also the
perspective of how it should function in an economy, mostly a
free trade economy. Including "externalities" in the economic
process, particularly ones that are subsumed under "ecological"
considerations, is a most difficult enterprise and high-lights
many important free market economic issues, so I would suggest
this discussion is entirely appropriate for this venue.

And there are advantages to on-line correspondence as happens
here at the forum, as others get to "look over our shoulders" and
learn right along with us. So far, there don't seem to be any
objections with this environmental thread -- but I'm watching!

First, Galearis, I am largely on your side. I'm not an advocate
of capitalism or big business, just of free trade --- there's a
big big difference. If you're interested, I can point you to a
post or two on this difference. As it turns out, government
almost always gets captured by the moneyed interests, meaning as
Nader knows, by those who buy government through those 22,000
lobbyists infesting D.C.

Second, please note, I don't claim free markets solve all
problems nor do I claim they are "perfect," only that they work
way better than the alternatives. In combination with some of
the processes suggested below to bring environmental
"externalities" into businesses' bottom lines, market forces are
potentially some of the most potent weapons we have. Here are
some examples:

A chemical called "Alar," sprayed on apples to retard
ripening, is reported to cause childhood cancer. This is
discovered by the Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC).
Meryl Streep becomes the spokesperson. At the behest of the
Apple Grower's Association, the United States Department of
Agriculture (USDA) issues a report saying their tests show
no traces of Alar and its use poses "no significant health
threat." NRDC reveals that USDA's report is based on
outdated technology which can't pick up low levels of Alar
and that levels found with new tests _are_ carcinogenic.
Despite USDA assurances, apple sales plummet. Apple
growers, after losing between $60 million and $140 million
reluctantly change their procedures and stop using Alar.
Uniroyal, the manufacturer of Alar withdraws it from the
market. -_The Ruling Class_, by Eric Felten, The Heritage
Foundation, p.19->23, etc.

Intel, the worlds largest computer chip maker,
announces a flaw in its Pentium processor which would
cause an error once every {240} years for the average
user. Intel says it will replace the chip for any user
that proves a need. -~25 Nov 1994; After complaints
from users and a drop in its stock, etc., Intel
apologizes for its "arrogant" policy and agrees to
replace defective Pentiums for any user "on demand."
-CNBC, 20 Dec 1994 ~10:40:12 AM

And here are two examples of WHY businesses must be hyper-
sensitive to market forces:

Snapple is striking back against rumors it supports the
KKK and the radical anti-abortion group "Operation
Rescue" by launching a full blown ad campaign. In the
recent past, other businesses were severely damaged by
negative rumors. A drink called Tropical Fantasy lost
70% of its sales because of a rumor the drink was
designed by the KKK to sterilize black men. Corona, a
Mexican beer, suffered a 50% loss in sales when it was
rumored it was contaminated with urine. -CNN MONEYLINE,
4 Sep. 1993 ~9:50:59 AM

Which brings me to Mr.Gresham's excellent question:

"How can citizens join together to solve a pressing problem
without creating an addition to the power structure that persists
and takes away their liberties?" -Mr. Gresham msg#: 1509

I think there are some very good solutions to this question,
particularly ones that function more or less automatically once
they are installed in our cultural "memenome." Particularly those
solutions which influence businesses, often -- next to
governments -- the most intractable environmental malefactors.

My favorite of these is strict respect for property rights
enforced when necessary by unrestricted class damage suits.
REMEMBER Galearis, these DON'T require an informed populace --
and, Mr. Gresham, only a legitimate use of the part of the power
structure which already exists (the courts) and which should
focus ONLY on protecting property rights -- especially if you
include your own body as part of your property.

It takes only a few lawyers and experts who can convince a jury
that someone or their property has been damaged. How about a
class action damage suit against chloro-fluro hydrocarbon
manufacturers and any companies who used it on behalf of all the
additional people who got melanoma as a result of it's release
into the troposphere for example?

Out-and-out purchase of natural areas and resources which
environmentally conscious folks believe worthy of protection is
another such powerful, perhaps the _most_ powerful, method. If
property rights are indeed respected, this is one of the most
effective and permanent, and requires the power structure only to
abstain from violating property rights. An example is the
environmental group buying up tracts of Brazilian rain forest.
There are other such groups buying other areas as well.

Another approach, one I failed to mention previously, is boycott.
This is extremely effective in influencing businesses, so much so
that pro-business right-wingers usually dislike them intensely.

And as far as those uninformed sheeple, well, look on the bright-
side: If they can be "programmed" (not really so easy as
sometimes assumed) to believe sex is bad, government is good, and
gold is dead, they can certainly be "programmed" to believe green
is great. Recent events prove such "green" programming has been
relatively easy, probably because it resonates with many many of
us, and may even have a genetic component.

I understand why many in the ecology movement are pessimistic.
They are discovering what libertarians have always known:
Government (meaning force) is in general rarely a solution and
usually central to the problem. Environmental considerations are
no exception.

Like government solutions to anything in general: 1. Government
environmental solutions are invariably a compromise with moneyed
interests getting things shaded heavily in their direction, 2.
government solutions, in order to be "just" and conform to "equal
protection under the law," must be monolithic, one-size-fits-all
in nature (even towns in New Jersey without any elevators are
required by law to have an elevator inspector for example), 3.
Even though such compromises may be poor and mono-lithic
solutions, it's difficult to get them implemented for many
reasons, bureaucratic lethargy and organized opposition (often
due to the monolithic nature of the solutions) being main ones,
4. government solutions are inherently inflexible -- once
implemented in law, they are almost impossible to update, change
or eliminate even though new information and research suggests
they should be, and 5. Government solutions regularly supplant
and displace NG (Non-Government) solutions which are less likely
to be compromises, are easier to implement, are usually multi-
lithic, and are flexible in response to changing information and
research.

I'm optimistic on the other hand, because I see major improvement
in the environment already, and I understand the motivations
causing it and many processes which are quite effective in
bringing further positive changes about without involving
government. Many of these processes are cultural, others are
market oriented, some are technological and a few are an amalgam.

None the less, it _is_ unfortunately impossible to make an omlet
without breaking eggs. Or to walk across the glen without
leaving tracks -- and eventually waste products. The dinosaurs
left big tracks -- and does a bear dump his tanks in the woods?

Ultimately, we could eliminate ALL waste and tracks caused by
humans -- by utterly eliminating ourselves. Entirely. Of
course, unless we use nukes, the bears would still be doing un-
nameable things in the woods. The more reasonable question then
is, how many tracks and how much waste -- and what kinds -- are
acceptable? And _where_ are they acceptable? Which brings us
back to property rights and unrestricted class damage suits, etc.

And, as proven by the recovery of the atolls after nuclear tests,
Krakatoa, and yes, the Iraqi oil revenge, the environment is
remarkably resiliant. And while things won't return to exactly
"the way they were" they don't stay the same anyway. That's what
"evolution" is all about isn't it? Now we get into what rate of
change is too fast -- which brings us back to property rights and
unrestricted class damage suits, etc.

And finally, to repeat, world population is leveling off.
Challenge me on this point, and I'll dig through my stuff till I
find the links and references.

I know much of what I say is not in sync with the main-stream
propaganda script. The stages of enlightenment are ignore-ance,
rejection, anger, and finally acceptance. I'm not suggesting I'm
necessarily correct, just that, it seems to me, you are in the
ignore-ance stage as far as what I'm saying. It simply doesn't
fit within your frame of reference, so even though you read it,
it doesn't register. Apologies if I misread you.

But if you do care about the wider environment, THINK about the
approaches I have suggested. They're relatively simple, do-able,
and don't require a totally informed population. They resonate
with large parts of that population none the less, and while they
may not solve all environmental problems, they'll go a long way
toward solving a large portion of them. They may turn you into
an environmental optimist! Perhaps even a libertarian?

Regards,
Journeyman

P.S. As far as academia, may I suggest a read of a most apropos
article to be found at the link in the header to this message --
it's in the "Guilded Opinion" section of this very forum.


Galearis (11/23/2000; 12:10:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 42092)
@Peter Asher
Correction to my last post....
Darn slippy fingers - that is 2.3 b years, not 3 b.y.
Sorry. But what's 700 million years between friends, yes? (smile)

G.

elevator guy (11/23/2000; 12:07:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 42091)
Happy Thanksgiving!
Trade your gold for some family togetherness and warmth of human kindness!

Sharefin (11/23/2000; 11:28:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 42090)
Gold production spreadsheet
http://www.sharelynx.net/temp/Production97.xls
Cannuck
'Other mining sector' refers to whether the company is a pure gold producer or mines other metals.
Some of the companies are present under gold & silver as well as producing other metals.

Here's a spreadsheet on the Dow stocks
http://www.sharelynx.net/temp/DowStockFalls.htm

Cut & paste the url.



Al Fulchino (11/23/2000; 11:15:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 42089)
(No Subject)
Hi, tidying up time before the family beckons:

One uncovers much when doing some searching. And so far none has pointed to finding the quotes that I attributed to President Washington. When the holdiay is over I will call the company that produced the brochure with the quotations. Until then, I did find another possible Washington forgery. This from the site linked below:


http://www.virginia.edu/gwpapers/faq/index.html

Q: Did Washington actually write the Rules of Civility?
A: No. In fact "The Rules of Civility and Decent Behaviour in Company and Conversation" have been traced back to the sixteenth century. Some of the maxims were so fully exemplified in Washington's life that biographers came to regard them as formative influences on his character.

One thing DID happen though according to this site:

"These maxims originated in the late sixteenth century in France and were popularly circulated during Washington's time. Washington wrote out a copy of the 110 Rules in his school book when he was about sixteen-years old. "

So in a way he DID write them. Lots to learn when you do some checking. I wonder what else I have been wrong about? I do know what my intent was. And if I do have to adopt the words as my own, I will gladly. I just will not attribute them as anyone else's. In fact, I do not know how one can ever truly attribute anyone's words to them unless we see it on TV or hear it radio. Afterall even if we read it in the speaker's own hands, we would need some witnesses to confirm it.



As far as the HOF nomination goes. It was never an intent to be so elected. I am not into that sort of thing, but not so above it that I do not recognize that it means someone thought it was valuable. Anyone can appreciate that thought.

So what is left? Well, this is a nice place. It has informed and searching people. As I stated my intent was sincere and I am comfortable with the entire outcome. Hopefully my quick apology gives me acknowledges my commitment, as opposed to someone who shouts fascist or Buke the Puke and then hides for a couple of weeks, and then claims personal reasons,( personal reasons that may well be true, but also does not excuse such an extremely learned and detailed man who takes great amounts of time here. Enough people in this country have tainted conservatives with the fascist/hitlerlike lable that I feel enough is enough. For anyone to presume that he would not read back to see what his comments brought would be extreme foolishness and would taint anyones perception of him) But that is my take. Others can worship who they wish. Thank God for free speech.

I maintain that it was/is important to attach your name to anything you ever say. I have done that here. And to ramble a bit more, must say that I have learned much more that I have contributed. Expressing my thoughts here was a good experience. It reaffirmed to me that one can learn not only by example, but by correction. Thanks Steve and others.

On this Thanksgiving I want to say thank you for meeting so many fine people.


Galearis (11/23/2000; 10:34:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 42088)
@Peter Asher on global warming
Hello Peter,

We have not talked for some time. .It is good to hear from you.

Global warming and cooling is a function of any number of factors. I am sure you are
familiar with ice ages. Ice ages have been noticeable events for hundreds of millions of
years.(smile) There are ‘fossil’ tills of Precambrian age to prove this and I have as recently
had my hands on such formations as late as last summer. This fossil morainic material has
been dated at around 3 billion years. The latest morainic material of course is
unconsolidated and dates from present (Greenland, alpine montain flows) to our own
modern Pleistocene of say 8,000 +- At present we are in a warmer interglacial period.

That is the long view historical to give you some perspective.

But your question pertains to human affects. This warming, caused by a variety of so-
called greenhouse gases began to accumulate with the onset of the industrial revolution of
last century - associated with the increased burning of fossil fuels. This I am sure you
know. I may be a little off on the actual rise in atmospheric temps but I think this
amounted to a bit over 1 degree F. in a century. Of course with the rest of the world
rapidly industrializing and consuming fossil fuels, at least at the rate of arithmentic
progression, the warming continues at a similar rate. 1 degree may not sound like much,
but locally in some of the southern mid-west states of the US this has expressed itself in
killer summer temperatures. But the warming, as I said, is excellerating.

To add confusion to all this climate data are cycles within cycles of shorter term durations
of cooler or warmer conditions on a more local basis. This too is normal. The 1990s have
been a warm decade for us in Ontario, but there were some record cool summers here too.
As a rule, if we in the east are cool, those in the west are warm. This is jet stream effects -
and sometimes jet streams stall out over an area for long periods during summer (or
winter) and we have aberrant weather (cooler or warmer). Then one can add El Nios (sp.? I
never could spell that) etc. phenominon. So these smaller cycles, and "normal" aberrations
within the larger cycles cause even more confusion.

Nevertheless, the trend has been warmer. Record warmer in many locales.

However, having said that:
If Mr. Singer is correct then how then can he explain the GLOBAL rising of sea levels?
This is quite alarming to low-lying island countries where it was most noticeable. One can
visit Prince Edward Island on our east coast and see right now where house foundations
built in the last century on the coast are now underwater. Similar sights can be seen with
some Roman ruins in the Aegean.

It would take considerably longer than since the 1940s to achieve the billions of gallons of
polar ice melt to accomplish this. Rises like these are not due to a couple of rainy summers.

If you hear some experts talking about this trend of warming making large areas of arid
lands of the southwestern US virtually uninhabitable by the end of THIS century, I would
suggest to you that this is VERY possible. I would not be prepared to say that this is absolutely true, I simply say it is more likely than not - the timing may be a little off.

It almost begs a different attitude on rising oil prices, yes? Or is there any connection with
an oil lobby group to Mr. Singer.

For example, forestry/logging corporations in B.C. "sponsored" studies by professor(s) in
the Univ. of British Columbia that "prove" that clear-cut logging does not cause flash
floods, landslides and mudslides.

I hope this helps, and of course it is only my view....
I have to run and get some work done now...Thanks for the interest!

Regards,

G.

Sierra Madre (11/23/2000; 10:10:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 42087)
USA GOLD.....sorry about the error!
In my previous post to Thai gold I addressed a message to Bart, who is master of the "other" page.
The Lord and Master here, I understand, is someone known as Mike Kosares, if I am not again mistaken.
Anyway...
The idea is that there is a site in Mexico known as Todito.com, and they sell silver and gold coins.
The Central Bank of Mexico is promoting the sale of silver coins through the Mexican banking system, and included in the promotion is Todito.com.
Suggestion for your consideration:
Link up with Todito.com so that USAgold.com can distribute the Mexican coins in the U.S. They are beautiful and cheap!
Currently about $6.14 at the banks.

Jeff C. (11/23/2000; 10:07:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 42086)
California making it illegal to own an unregistered assault weapon
Oops. I mistyped. Corrected paragrph below.

Registering gold? Unlikely. Far more likely that they would either ban private possesion (which has been done before) or require those who deal in gold to be licensed. The latter would effectivly limit its use as an alternative currency. Especially if they added something that required a person to show a reciept for purchase that either predates the law or was from a licensed dealer or pay an exorbitant "tax" upon the sale.

Jeff C. (11/23/2000; 10:05:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 42085)
California making it illegal to own an unregistered assault weapon
Registering gold? Unlikely. Far more likely that they would either ban private possesion (which has been done before) require who deal in gold to be licensed. The latter would effectivly limit its use as an alternative currency. Especially if they added something that required a person to show a reciept for purchase that either predates the law or was from a licensed dealer or pay an exorbitant "tax" upon the sale.

Sierra Madre (11/23/2000; 10:04:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 42084)
Thai gold...saw your post addressed to me
Thank you Thai gold! I was thinking of posting a message to you as I was scrolling through and found your meesage addressed to me.
Yes, the silver coins are on sale in Mexico through a widespread network of bank branches including BBv-Bancomer, Banregio, Bital, and the Internet site www.todito.com
The price is being announced daily on T.V. and (I haven't checked personally) it appears that the ounce is going for about $56 pesos, perhaps $58 pesos. That's about $6.14 U.S.
Todito.com is selling the coins in Mexico.
If you go to their site, you'll se at the top of the page a lot of silver coins. Click on them, and you'll go to the page selling coins, and you'll easily understand & find what you want. "Silver" is "Plata" and "Gold" is "Oro".
They might be a little high in price, I think they weren't buying right, but this is going to be taken care of, I am sure. You might send them a message if the price is not to your satisfaction.
Try purchasing say 5 ounces - some $31.00 U.S. - for delivery in the U.S. and see what happens. Should be no problem, or if there is a problem, let's find out, and correct it.
This silver thing in Mexico is going to be the beginning of something important. Just starting...
I had not mentioned Todito.com on this site, out of respect.
Note to BART: contact TODITO.COM AND REPRESENT THEM OR LINK UP WITH THEM FOR U.S. DELIVERIES OF MEXICAN SILVER!!!!

SOMEONE PLEASE TELL BART ABOUT THIS!!!

Journeyman (11/23/2000; 9:22:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 42083)
Global warming as propaganda @Peter Asher, MrGresham, Galearis, ALL
http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=000114832908976&rtmo=qxdextb9&atmo=ggggg3JK&pg=/et/00/11/23/wclim23.html

Good link, Sir Peter! (Repeated above)

This illustrates very strong division among academics over a core assumption of recent environmental research regularly used for political ends. I stumbled on the idea of global warming as a "sophomore" (much too long ago) in high-school when it was a relatively new idea and I was thus hooked when it finally became a main-stream issue -- and I have followed the developments surrounding the idea rather closely. Originally, I was a proponent of global warming, now I'm not so sure.

Singer is a remarkably effective researcher and spokesman -- but he isn't alone. There is a huge and increasing contingent of researchers who side with him.

A few years back, when the political contingent essentially hijacked the editing of a key report (from the Buenos Aires meeting, I believe) and distorted the synopses of major sections to imply alarmist things most researchers did not agree with, there was a major rebellion amongst the contributors. Somewhere I have some of the coverage of this political-environmental scam -- or a link to it.

This is a chief reason I suggest you must be very careful of which environmental research you believe -- it's possible to edit Jesus the Christ into a radical anti-government rabel-rouser, gold as dead -- and good environmental science into Nazi propaganda.

Regards,
Journeyman



Galearis (11/23/2000; 8:07:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 42082)
@ Beesting,
your 14.56 posting of yesterday
Hello Beesting,

Thank you for your kind words.

I only wish I had the endurance and way with words - not to mention the expertise in
things fiscal and economic - of many on this forum to be able to contribute so much and so
often. Unfortunately I find myself "lurking in" so to speak, dropping a word
or two (often in haste and with a syntax flaw or two) then dashing out.

But your words sparked a speculation on my part (a continuation even, perhaps) on the
role of values vs materialism (wealth) as a motivator of direction for the individual, and a
corrupter or society. Hopefully I cover most of your points.
You said (as a younger student of 50 years ago):
*******snip**
Sir, the reason I'm going to school is to eventually get a good job,THAT PAYS LOTS OF
MONEY!
**********
There is nothing wrong with this agenda. Many I am sure have exactly this aim. I am
equally sure that while your goals may have reflected those of your peers (and, of course,
I do not know what role you were pursuing), those who accompanied the way with me
were not nearly as dedicated to this end. Most wanted to go into teaching, research, or to
run the family business - a great number of personal goals. I do not remember a single one
professing to the goal of pursuing wealth as an ends. I do remember a great many,
however, that had not even chosen what walk of life to pursue - and this was quite
worrysome to them. I am Canadian, however, and my experience may reflect the values
and times of my country and part of academia with which I was associated.

I am equally sure that had I been in an MBA course, or taking political science, I might
have heard such wealth aspirations more frequently. Lawyers and politician "wannabees"
would likely have little to discuss with my "geographer" crowd, yes?

Nevertheless, a lot of our student values was not a reflection of the commonly held
positions of the "moral majority" parents who were investing their devotion in sending us
to university (college, down south). Most did (and still do) send their children to these
schools in "order to get a good job".

But curiously, when I went through for teaching, they of this "finishing" school, drummed
into us the concept that an education is first "an enrichment in itself" and the job aspect is
something that can be developed from it. (I did find this out to be true.) So this school was
taking even then the societal view of the value of education. Perhaps this is (besides the
personality learning mode associated with most commonly part of the individual teacher's
mindset) the foundation for the teacher's altruistic motivation. They surely do not go into
it for the wealth motivation. (An you can imagine how insulted they get when attacked by
governments for being "inefficient" and not worth the expense.)

Similarly, I feel that your average auto mechanic, cherry picker, bricklayer, carpenter is
not pursuing wealth in his or her choice of career. I have asked many of these people I have met
in passing over the years what their backgrounds were and why they do what they do. (I
am curious especially about those who seem to enjoy with industry something that I find
abhorrent [smile]). Many times it was a factor of "it was what I could get", and variations
of the same - but often the lifestyle ran in the family, or they simply liked working with
things. (The latter case would represent the learning mode of the individual.) In other
words, the simple pursuit of wealth may be a motivator of only a segment of the
population and most just "wannabe able to do what they like" and to have a secure and
stable life and contribute with satisfaction to their community. Different ambitions, yes.
Laudable? Of course!

Most of these same people want a stable and fair government that represents a quality of
response to the taxes they "invest" in it. Do they get it. Probably not as a whole.
Corruption and vested interest manipulations DO do a diservice to the majority, a kind of
"trickle down economics" of a different kind. Yes?

I feel I shouldn't comment on the structural deficiencies of the US system. I am not nearly
familiar enough with it to do so. But I feel much more comfortable in a comment on our
own. Again with taxation bang for the buck as pertaining to well-being of the masses:

during the 1950's corporate Canada contributed and bore the burden of tax contributions
to the tune of 20% of the whole. Modern Canada sees this contribution down to 8%. As
you might surmise, individual tax burdens are bothersome up here to many on an
individual basis.

At the same time the civil service employee on average makes considerably less than those
in the private fulfilling the same job descriptions. For years this was tolerable by THEM,
because they knew they traded income for SECURITY. This now, due to government
cut-backs is changing. The Canadian governments are down-sizing. Canadians can tolerate
the loss of services because they still see a corresponding drop in their tax burden. Should
at some time in the future they detect a disparity (a no gain for the voter or an inequitable
element) in the process, there will be a corresponding backlash on the political front. A
swing back to the left will result. So we see things working similarly up here to the US,
yes?
Note that I do not take a position of right or wrong on this process. I only point out that it
is the process. Things do balance out in the end - or society becomes increasingly
disfunctional whether the swing is to the right or left.
Now I do add a value judgement: heaven help us if a society loses its social conscience!

I had not, like you, started out with this length of essay in mind. But I have enjoyed
exchanging thoughts.

Gold, get you some (more) (smile)

Regards,

G.

Orville Goldenbacher (11/23/2000; 7:54:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 42081)
surely another sign of the end!!!
Tell the crips and bloods they're going to have to register all their gold chains??? I don't think they're gonna like that!!!

SteveH (11/23/2000; 7:04:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 42080)
California making it illegal to own an unregistered assault weapon
http://www.latimes.com/news/state/20001120/t000111584.html
Is gold next?

SteveH (11/23/2000; 6:13:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 42079)
Hi Jeff C.
eom

SteveH (11/23/2000; 5:49:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 42078)
Hmmm
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/metro/chicago/ws/item/0,1308,46649-46819-48299,00.html
Illinois case excluded dimpled ballots!

ThaiGold (11/23/2000; 5:04:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 42077)
Attn: Topaz
http://www.perthmint.com/olympiccoins/silver/body.html
Itwasn't at the link you posted... but I found it at a sub-link
shown above.
Gee. ... With coins that big for the Olympix, who needs
a discus.!.
PS: Our Post Offices only sell stamps. Paper Wealth.


Topaz (11/23/2000; 4:53:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 42076)
"sold-out" @Thai
In some (not all) cases the "Bill Clinton pocket book on dubious meanings" comes into play here. (The stories I could tell!)
Off to watch "Boogie Nights"
Happy Thanksgiving - All.

Topaz (11/23/2000; 4:41:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 42075)
Big coins 2
http://www.perthmint.com/olympiccoins/about/index.html
If you scroll down to the bottom of the page (above) you'll find the KILO Olympic Coin (the BIG Mother ref'd below).
Most Post Offices here in OZ carry a variety of PM coins for sale but the trouble is the margins are prohibitive.
STILL the best play here IMHO is the round A$0.50 @ A$ 2.50 (if you can find em) 1/3 approx ounce Ag.

ThaiGold (11/23/2000; 4:39:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 42074)
Attn: wolavka
... Long Term Investments ...
To stock traders on the Vancouver BC (Canada) exchange,
"Long Term" is ... overnite ...



ThaiGold (11/23/2000; 4:35:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 42073)
Attn: Topaz
Yes. I noticed that too, about where they decreased the face values. Odd. Example, initially their 1 Kilo Kookaburra coin
had a face value of AUS$150, then was decreased to AUS$30

Is that inflation; deflation; or just good marketing.?.



ThaiGold (11/23/2000; 4:30:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 42072)
Attn: Topaz
Wow.!. That Perth Mint website is fabulous. Just browsing it
fully will require me alot more time than I have right now. But
looking at most of their Silver issues, it strikes me how quick
they all "sold out".
Which causes me to wonder, why these government mints,
worldwide, do not ramp-up production and get more of the
miner's product into general circulation. Seems the demand is
there, by the people, but the mints just are laggard. Perhaps
that's the key to getting these gold and silver markets moving.
ie: Simply mint enuf coins, and put them into the banks where
the common people can purchase them at will, without any
markups and delivery hassles.
I guess that's too much to ask. I mean, having a government
actually mint real money, for real people.
Thanks again. ThaiGold


ThaiGold (11/23/2000; 4:23:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 42071)
Attn: wolavka
I believe you're onto something, predicting a massive delivery
of dec gold. I posted a bit earlier, about how the gold shares
(good ones) (NEM example) -- soared 7.5 % on Wednesday,
and is possibly a precurser of the event which you foretold.
We shall see. Happy Ho;iday to you too. Thanks.

Topaz (11/23/2000; 4:17:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 42070)
"face" value @ Thai
While checking the link I noticed with the "nugget" coins, they have had a reduction in "face value" over the years which kinda eases my mind re: Legal Tender issues.
That extra NINE looks mighty inviting YES?

wolavka (11/23/2000; 4:04:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 42069)
Thai Gold
Yes , I will take delivery, holding from 272, down to 264.40
long term investment.

I expect a nice run till first of year.

Have a nice Holiday.

Topaz (11/23/2000; 3:58:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 42068)
BIG Coins @ Thai.
Same link for the Ag Kook's mate. That site gets a workover pretty regularly and it's amazing to go there on a semi-regular basis to note the changes. 2 yr's ago they were plugging Au Bullion Coins for all they were worth but nowadays it's all their "value added" lines. (a few other changes relating to Gov't guarantees for Unallocated Deposits are quite eye-opening!! (nudge-nudge)
The BIGGEST coin doing the rounds at present is the Olympic Silver Coin (forget it's name) but it's a Whopper!
About 5 inches Dia. Fancy lugging 20 of them around as pocket change eh?

ThaiGold (11/23/2000; 3:36:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 42067)
Sorry for the triple post... my browser just went ballistic



ThaiGold (11/23/2000; 3:34:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 42066)
Silver Kookabura 1 Kilo Coin
Attn: Topaz
Hi Topaz
Thanks for the link... I'll delve thru it next.
Meanwhile, I saw an item at another (censored) site that
lists a 1 Kilo Kookabura Coin. That must be a whopper.
Ever seen one.?. There's no pix at that (censored) site.
ThaiGold


ThaiGold (11/23/2000; 3:33:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 42065)
Silver Kookabura 1 Kilo Coin
Attn: Topaz
Hi Topaz
Thanks for the link... I'll delve thru it next.
Meanwhile, I saw an item at another (censored) site that
lists a 1 Kilo Kookabura Coin. That must be a whopper.
Ever seen one.?. There's no pix at that (censored) site.
ThaiGold


ThaiGold (11/23/2000; 3:32:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 42064)
Silver Kookabura 1 Kilo Coin
Attn: Topaz
Hi Topaz
Thanks for the link... I'll delve thru it next.
Meanwhile, I saw an item at another (censored) site that
lists a 1 Kilo Kookabura Coin. That must be a whopper.
Ever seen one.?. There's no pix at that (censored) site.
ThaiGold


Topaz (11/23/2000; 3:26:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 42063)
Hi Thai!
http://www.perthmint.com/content.htm
G-day Thai,
I think they're A$100 face...(NOT prepared to go and dig em up to check <wink>)
If you persevere at the above link no doubt you'll find what you're looking for.
They (the Nugget series) are the "garden variety" Bullion Coin here in OZ. Generally available @ Spot + 3-5% buy, and Spot sell.

ThaiGold (11/23/2000; 3:15:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 42062)
Attn: wolavka
... Check your positions... It may be YOU, taking delivery ...



ThaiGold (11/23/2000; 3:13:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 42061)
Is there a 1oz Kangaroo/Nugget Coin.?.
Attn: Topaz
If so, what's it's face value.?.
And do you have any link that shows it's design
and features, purity; size, etc.?.
Thanks in Advance. ThaiGold


wolavka (11/23/2000; 3:06:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 42060)
Stick my neck out again
Something doesn't fit:

It appears as though somebody is gonna take delivery @ first notice in Dec comex.

Topaz (11/23/2000; 2:43:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 42059)
Bleeder Update and welcome rc
The Tug-o-War with the "bleeder" began in earnest yesterday seeing a rise from it's all time lows to finish the day at 52.6 us cents (a 2 cent recovery). Reportedly, the National Aust Bank bought the Aussie with a Billion US and I'm guessing this was supplemented by RB-A activity.
A positive showing by POG no doubt aided and abetted the A$.....Let's see if the trend continues o/nite or will the specs press the short side?
G-day rc,
The problem looming large on the Horizon is the short position taken by Banks and speculators who, under duress, are obliged to return Bullion to cover their positions.
It is "they" who borrow the Metal and in turn finance Mine development...see the difference?
When the Ashanti thing hit the Fan,... who called the Margin?... Not a Gov't but a Bullion Bank who probably had his head in a Noose himself.
Yes rc, there's far more to the Gold "mystery" than is revealed through WGC databases and internet Forums (sadly)and Physical Gold advocates don't rate the "paper" nearly as strongly as the physical, given all the above.
Thanks for being here.

justamereBear (11/23/2000; 2:03:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 42058)
Couple of interesting URL's from the other side
http://woodrow.mpls.frb.fed.us/economy/calc/cpihome.html

http://www.msnbc.com/news/493184.asp?cp1=1

The first gives a FED calculater of CPI and inflation.

The second speaks of $4 tillion wiped out since stock market peak-- 40% of USA total economic output for a year.

j'Bear

ThaiGold (11/23/2000; 1:54:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 42057)
Mexico New Silver Coin: url / link confirmation
http://www.silver-investor.com/
Attn: Sierra Madre:
Here's a url/link that seems to confirm what you posted earlier
about that new Mexican coin.
Later, I asked MK/CPM if he would be able to obtain/offer any
of them to us. He apparently didn't see my request...

From the above url/link:
[quote]
Breaking News
"The Bank of Mexico has launched an aggressive campaign to promote silver as a savings of wealth for the future. "This is a very significant event, since Mexico is the world's largest silver producer and any silver demand by the public in Mexico will detract from available supplies to industry." The Bank of Mexico - Mexico's Central Bank - has announced that one troy ounce .999 silver coins produced by the Mexican Mint, founded 1535, are on sale at $60 pesos a piece ( about $6.35 U.S. ) tax free, through some 2,500 bank branches of the Mexican banking system, in Mexico. The announcement was made via national Mexican T.V. chain T.V. Azteca, in a beautifully produced promotional "spot" of 60 secs. duration. (Posted November 21, 2000)
[unquote]

ThaiGold


Peter Asher (11/23/2000; 0:16:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 42056)
Galearis, Your opinion please.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=000114832908976&rtmo=qxdextb9&atmo=ggggg3JK&pg=/et/00/11/23/wclim23.html
Excerpt
>>>> Bob Watson, chairman of the IPCC, has used the surface
temperature records of the past 20 years to claim that the
20th century is the warmest for 1,000 years, but Mr Singer
disagrees. He places greater faith in the "proxy" records of
temperature, contained in tree rings, ocean sediments, ice
cores and so on, which he says show no warming since
1940.

He said: "Thermometers may not be quite correct. Proxy
records say the global temperature has not increased in the
past 20 years." He believes that "heat islands" caused by
urbanisation have distorted thermometer readings. He
produced graphs from research conducted by the
University of East Anglia and analysis of Greenland ice
cores over 100,000 years published in scientific papers to
support his point.<<<<



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