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Welcome to the USAGOLD Gold Discussion Archives. The archives of this gold discussion forum are a treasure trove of information to educate investors about protecting their wealth through portfolio diversification with private gold ownership. The discussion forum also covers the wider issues of the past, present, and future role of gold in international monetary policy and the dynamics of the modern gold markets...   (Discussion Forum Hall of Fame) (The Gold Trail) ("Thoughts!" by ANOTHER)   The opinions posted by all guests are expressly their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the management or staff of USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals. The hosting of the public discussion shall therefore not be construed as an endorsement by USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals of any of the opinions posted here.

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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 1/22/2006
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

(Yesterday's Discussion.)

Gandalf the White (1/22/06; 20:47:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 140763)
WOWSERS !! There goes the US$ !! (see LINK)
http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=NYBOT_DX&v=s
88.8 was washed out with a BEAUTIFUL Waterfall following !
GO YELLOW and SUPERBOWL bound "HAWKS" !
<;-)

David Linkley (1/22/06; 19:41:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 140762)
@Belgian
Agreed that gold and other markets have been "managed" increasingly over the past several decades. The reason that gold came back under control during the 1976 -1982 years is that Paul Volker had the backing politically to break inflation's back even at the expense of a terrible economy. The US at that time still had a surplus of overseas reserves and needed to show the world that the economic system could function without a gold anchor from Nixon's action in 71'. Today is much different and your theory about the ECU selling gold to facilitate a rising gold price defies logic and wisdom. To be sure someone wants the price to rise at this time as any market anywhere in history has never been completely free from manipulation. I only wish your theory were true for it would be a great benefit to all of mankind. In any economic scenario a smart player will keep their original economic seed capital "for CB's gold" as a strong base, just as a wealthy person will only spend their interest not their principal.

Any sales of gold without the consent of the public supposed to own it shows an arrogance and disregard of freedom. To then turn around and trust these same people to have the entire world's best interests at heart is very incongruent thinking. I agree with you Belgian that times are a changing very quickly but before we can reach your promised land you can be sure it will be bought and paid for in blood not gold. Gold without the other factors necessary for freedom (rule of law, informed public, etc.) will just be used by tyrants. Your theory is a pipe dream without the full participation of the public who have been fed nothing but bullshit for years. The public who you describe as so stupid knows full well in their guts that the something is seriously wrong.

A cleansing crisis is on the way and the pendulum will swing back towards gold and freedom but not from the idiocy of CB's, in fact I predict many won't make it through the next several decades.

Rook (1/22/06; 19:14:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 140761)
.,.
Is this a viable way to keep the housing market up and running?...........Change the mortgage rules.
To make housing expenses continue to be affordable, morgage expense must lessen more and more. What else can lessen in the area of housing expenses?
Debt is one area that is wide open, and making debt less costly is one bereneke way possible.
Is there another way?
To be ahead of the curve, I would guess that they will not raise interest rates again.

Randy, the gold customer will return not in february, but in early March. I pitched the idea to 2 of his freinds, and they also agreed that it is likely that he will go for it.

Smeagol (1/22/06; 18:53:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 140760)
Ssssss!
Ssir Clink, we owes you one for that!!! (cackle) ~>8-)

Clink! (1/22/06; 16:34:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 140759)
Perspective on nuclear energy
http://www.teamliberty.net/id215.html
The attached link has some more political material that I won't go into, but there was an interesting purely factual section which I found useful :-

The fact is that Iran wants nuclear power. It wants to join a growing list of countries that already enjoy the benefits of nuclear power. Which countries currently have nuclear power plants operating within their borders? The list might surprise you. Argentina, Armenia, Belgium, Brazil, Bulgaria, Canada, China, Czech Republic, Finland, France, Germany, Hungary, India, Japan, South Korea, Lithuania, Mexico, Netherlands, Pakistan, Romania, Russia, Slovakia, Slovenia, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Taiwan, Ukraine, United Kingdom, and the United States. According to the Uranium Information Centre[1] there are a total of 441 operable reactors in these countries.

Countries that are exploring or actively seeking nuclear power capabilities include Egypt, Indonesia, Iran, Israel, North Korea, Turkey, and Vietnam. The countries that are known to have stockpiles of nuclear weapons are Russia, the United States, France, China, Great Britain, Pakistan, and India. Israel is considered a de facto nuclear power by most observers, although it has long maintained that it will neither confirm nor deny whether it has nuclear weapons. North Korea is suspected to have joined the list of nuclear powers in 2005. South Africa once had nuclear weapons but has since reportedly destroyed the weapons, but not the capacity to manufacture them again if necessary.

Given the fact that nuclear power plants are currently operating in 31 countries with 7 more countries in pursuit of atomic energy, is it possible that the United States of America is honestly threatened by Iran seeking nuclear power capabilities? And given the fact that there are currently approximately 31,000 nuclear warheads deployed or in reserve in the stockpiles of eight countries: China, France, India, Israel, Pakistan, Russia, the United Kingdom and the United States, is it plausibly that Iran, even if it had 20 nuclear warheads, wouldn’t be pulverized if it ever attempted to launch a nuclear weapon against the United States or any of our allies? Nuclear or not, Iran will never be a nuclear threat to the United States. It is a mathematical improbability. According to Nuclear Age Peace Foundation, of these 31,000 nuclear warheads, about 13,000 are deployed and 4,600 of these are on high alert, i.e. ready to be launched within minutes notice. The combined explosive yield of these weapons is approximately 5,000 megatons, which is about 200,000 times the explosive yield of the bomb used on Hiroshima.[2] None of these nukes are in Tehran’s control.

end snip.

C!

Clink! (1/22/06; 16:25:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 140758)
Way more serious than my last post
I followed the UrbanSurvival to the bellaciao.org site. Here is a snip :-
Point #3 Bank Of America and Compass Bank managers (probably all other U.S. banks too) have been instructing their employees in the last few weeks on how to respond to customer demands in the event of a collapse of the U.S. economy - specifically telling the employees that only agents from the Department Of Homeland Security will have authority to decide what belongings customers may have from their safe deposit boxes - and that precious metals and other valuables will not be released to U.S. citizens. The bank employees have been strictly prohibited from revealing the banks’ new "guidelines" to anyone. (however, employees have been talking to friends and family)

Have they been talking to any friends and family who happen to post at this forum ?

C!

PS. Disclaimer - I have no idea how "serious" the bellaciao website is.


Clink! (1/22/06; 16:03:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 140757)
@ Smeagol
http://www.lecour.net/richard/downloads/the-one-ring-800x600.jpg
And why stop at coins and bars. Here's a quality image of something you might appreciate ! (Oh, we teases, we teases cruelly, yess we does, prreciousss ....)

C!



Psilver Psyched (1/22/06; 15:58:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 140756)
Test
Since a message I wrote on 03/07/1998 was repasted today, I was jst curious if my password still works...

Thoreauly (1/22/06; 15:00:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 140755)
@ bskija
I apologize for the length but cannot resist:

I, GREENSPAN
by Bill Bonner

I, Alan Aurifericus Nefarious Greenspan, Chairman of the Federal Reserve Bank, holder of the Medal of Freedom, Knight of the British Empire, member of the French Legion of Honor, known to my peers as the "greatest central banker who ever lived," (I will not trouble you with all my titles. I will not mention, for example, that I was the winner of the prestigious Enron Prize for distinguished public service, awarded on November 1, 2001, just days after Enron began to collapse in a heap of corruption charges) am about to give you the strange history of my later years.

For I will dispense with childhood…even with young adulthood, and those dreary sessions with that terminally dreary woman, Ayn Rand, who couldn't write a compelling sentence if her life depended on it. I'll also dispense with my own dreary years at the Council of Economic Advisors, and pass directly to the time I spent as the most powerful man in the world. For here are my real titles: Emperor of the world's most powerful money, despot of the world's largest and most dynamic economy, and architect of the most audacious financial system this sorry globe has ever seen.

Yes, I, Alan Greenspan, ruled the financial world. But who ruled Alan Greenspan? Ah…I will come to that, and tell you how, while presiding over the biggest boom ever I became caught in what I may call the "golden predicament" from which I have never since become disentangled.

This is not by any means the first thing I have written. I have written much over the years. But it was all written for a purpose, which only a few were able to discern. Most readers foolishly saw the cluttered mind of a dithering economist or the clumsy, stuttering pen of a professional bureaucrat. Many listening to my wandering speeches and twisting sentences thought that English was not my first language. They thought they detected a faint accent, like that of Henry Kissinger or Michael Caine. They mocked me as "incomprehensible" or "indecipherable." They watched what they thought was an obsequious bureaucrat squirm. They had no idea what I was really up to and what I can only now reveal.

But they admired me, too. I knew it. Because they saw in me a kind of genius…a Bernoulli of banking…a Newton of numbers…a Leibnitz of lucre…a Copernicus of currency. My mind worked at such a high pitch, they believed, that my thoughts were inaudible to most humans. They counted on me to keep the great empire's economy trundling forward. Little (actually nothing) did they know of my real thoughts and designs.

But now, all has changed. Now, I can write clearly and speak the truth. For now I am leaving my post. There is no further need for me to dissemble; no further need for me to pretend to kow-tow before Congressional committees; no further need to hide the real facts from my employers and the American people. Now, I swear by the gods, what I write comes from my own hand, and not from some overpaid, anonymous flack.

Some are born in crisis, some create crisis, and others have crisis thrust upon them.

Let me begin at the beginning. Scarcely had I settled into to the big chair at the Fed when a crisis was thrust upon me. And it is true, I responded in the conventional manner. There is no manual for central bankers, but there is a code of behavior. Faced with a financial crisis of any sort, a central banker's first duty is to run to the monetary valves and open them. This I did in 1987. I was new to the job and probably didn't open them enough. The U.S. economy lagged its rivals in Europe for several years. My old boss, George Bush, the elder, lost his bid for re-election in 1992 and blamed it on me. I resolved never to make that mistake again. Faced with a slew of challenges, shocks, uncertainties, crises and elections…ever thereafter, I made sure that every valve, throttle, level, switch and sluice gate was wide open.

But it was on December 5, 1996, that I had my first epiphany. That was the year that I made my celebrated remark about stock prices. I wondered aloud if they did not reflect a kind of "irrational exuberance." In truth, whether they did or did not, I do not know. But what I came to realize was this: 1) People, especially my employers, actually wanted prices that were irrationally exuberant. And 2) they could become far more irrationally exuberant if we put our minds to it.

I was 70 years old at the time. I had weaseled (why not be honest about it?) my way to the top post by knowing the right people and by making myself generally agreeable, and helpful, and by not saying anything anyone could disagree with. That was the original reason for what the press called "Greenspan speak." My private thoughts remained mine alone. All the public and the politicians got was gobbledygook, but for good reason.

They would not have wanted to hear what I really thought. So, I did not tell them. For I knew well and good what generally happened when politicians and central bankers got their hands on soft money and a compliant central banker. I was not born yesterday. They use their control of the money to cheat people. It is as simple as that. (I explained this early on in my career; fortunately, no one bothered to read what I wrote. Otherwise, I never would have gotten the job.) If central banking were an honest métier, there would be no reason to have it at all. Private banks could do the job better.

But people are ready to believe anything. Somehow, they think that a collection of rich financiers and power-mad politicians got together to create and run a central bank for the benefit of the people! Well, I've got news: it doesn't work that way. Money is only valuable when it is rare. It is like stock in a company. The shareholder is happy to hold a few shares. But imagine how he would feel if the company issued a few million more shares. His own ownership of the valuable thing is diluted. He would be cheated.

Likewise, an honest banker cannot dilute his depositors’ money. He cannot create real money "out of thin air," as if he were issuing new share
certificates, without cheating his clients. But that is exactly what central bankers do. They issue a certain amount of currency. Then, they issue more and more of it. So, the people who got it and saved it lose a little bit of the value each year. In effect, the value is lost by the savers holders and captured by the people who control the currency. It is really a very simple swindle. Who but an octogenarian Fed chief, on his way out the door, would have the courage to say so?

People today act as if they had invented money themselves. But money, central banking, and currency debasing have been around a long time. In 64 A.D., Nero decreed that the number of aureus coins minted from a pound of gold would increase from 41 to 45 (each coin would be about 10% less valuable). The silver denarius, meanwhile, lost 99.98% in the five centuries before the sacking of Rome. Paper sheds value even faster. The dollar has lost 95% of its purchasing power since the Fed was set up to protect it in 1913.

A successful central banker, in the age of compliant paper money, is one who is able to control the rate of ruin so that the rubes don't catch on.
A little bit of inflation, they believe, is actually healthy. Haven't the economists told them so? Issuing a little bit more money each year makes people feel richer…so they spend more; they hire more people; they build more houses. Everybody is happy. Everyone feels richer. What an elegant fraud! It's almost a perfect crime, because no one objects as long as it is done right. (My replacement at the Fed, Ben Bernanke, specializes in controlling the rate at which central bankers can steal from dollar holders without getting caught. He says that if necessary, he'll "drop money from helicopters" should the currency fail to lose value fast enough. I predict that there will be a lot of people who will want to drop him from a helicopter…for reasons I will explain here.)

I return to my narrative. After I made my remark about "irrational exuberance," I was called into Congress. The politicians who confronted me were the usual oafs and know-nothings. They made it clear that if I wanted to hold onto my job, I would have to stop worrying whether asset prices were too high; instead, I would need to do all I could to goose them up! It was on that very day, I recall it well, that what I had previously seen only in foggy theory came out into the clear, bright daylight of applied central banking.

No one wants honest money. No one. The politicians, bankers, investors, voters, and householders – anyone with a voice in the matter wants "easy"
money. It is just too delicious to resist. (I wondered what kind of a central banker would stand against them; he would need a backbone of titanium like Paul Volcker, and a head as thick and hard as a vault.) Debtors want a little inflation to lighten their burdens and put a wind to their backs. Creditors want inflation to swell their asset values. Politicians want to be re-elected. Businessmen want customers with money to throw around. Is there anyone who doesn't appreciate a little inflation?

And yet, of course, I always knew the answer. Easy money only works by defrauding people into thinking they have more money than they really do.
Easy come; easy go. They get it; they spend it. Before you know it, you have a boom. But people soon adjust their expectations. Prices rise to catch up to new money. Debt levels increase, and with them come heavier debt service costs. The magic fades. What can a central banker do? He can do the right thing. He can "take the punch bowl away," as my predecessors used to say. But this is where the trouble begins. Take away the punch bowl, and they begin punching you! I recall they burned Paul Volcker in effigy on the Capital steps when he did it. They would have burned him alive if they could have gotten their hands on him.

Why should I, Greenspan, suffer such a fate? No, it was not for me. This was the "golden predicament" I faced. Yes, I knew well that the nation would be better off if the punch bowl were removed, but I knew that I would be removed too, if I did it. And I knew, also, that it would be just a matter of time until the pressure for easy money would overwhelm any resistance a Fed chairman could put up. No pure paper money system has ever lasted. People can never resist the temptation to make the money easier and easier…until it is so wobbly and woozy it falls on its face. It's better that it falls sooner rather than later. It's better that the lesson is taught now, rather than 10 years from now. It's better that the lean times come on the next man's watch, not on mine! That's what I owe to old Ayn; she taught me who rules Greenspan - Greenspan! Ayn taught me the number one rule: Look out for Numero Uno.

I remember it so clearly. I was sitting in a House committee hearing room. My tormentors kept asking questions. I kept giving the kind of answers for which I later became famous…answers that didn't say anything. And I thought to myself: if these lardheads want easy money, I'll give them easy money. I'll give them the easiest money the planet has ever seen! I'll give it to them good and hard!

And so, I did.

Since I joined the Fed, outstanding home-mortgage debt has jumped from $1.8 trillion to $8.2 trillion. Total consumer debt went from $2.7 trillion to $11 trillion. Household debt has quadrupled.

And government debt, too, exploded. The feds owed less than $2 trillion in the second Reagan administration, a figure that had been almost constant for the previous 40 years. But under my direction, the red ink has overflowed like the Nile in flood - to over $7 trillion.

During the two terms of George W. Bush alone, the feds have borrowed more money from foreign governments and banks than all other American administrations put together, from 1776 to 2000. And more debt will be added in the eight Bush years than in the previous two hundred. The trade deficit, too, more than tripled since I've been at the Fed, from 150.7 to 756.8 billion, and will reach $830 billion in 2006. When I came to power, the United States was still a creditor. Now, it is a debtor, with more than $11 trillion worth of U.S. assets in foreign hands, a more than 500%
increase since 1987.

Who can argue with such a record? Who can compete with it? Who would want to?

But that is the smooth, perverse pleasure a cynical old man takes in his achievements. I have practically ruined the nation, and I know it. If you distributed the cost of the federal government's programs, promises, and pledges to the voters, along with the nation's private debt, the typical household, and the nation itself, would be broke. And yet, almost everywhere I go, I am revered as a maestro…saluted as if I were a war hero. It is as if I had won World War II all by myself. The same numbskulls that wanted easy money 10 years ago, now praise me for causing what they call "The Great Moderation," as if there were anything moderate about America's borrowing binge.

Others say that my real legacy is that I finally "made central banking work." Yes, I made it work…just like it's supposed to work, giving the people enough rope so they could hang themselves. That's what they've done. Now, they dangle from a long rope of mortgages, deficits and credit cards.

And I am delighted. Soon, people will be able to see how central banking really works. And poor Ben Bernanke will get the blame for it. He and his stupid helicopters…he almost deserves it.

RAP (1/22/06; 14:30:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 140754)
correction!
Not cash it in but roll it over into gold in hand out of the goverment eyes.

RAP (1/22/06; 14:14:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 140753)
Gold IRA question?
http://www.usagold.com/IRA.html
I have all my savings in a gold IRA.
Is it time to cash it in?

bskija (1/22/06; 13:14:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 140752)
Greenspan
I think the criticism of Greenspan is unjustified. Didn't he warn investors about irrational exuberance? What did they do, laughed at him. He was well aware that the country was in big trouble if they didn't change their ways (they didn't). In order to try to fix the economy temporarily, because the country and the people were getting deeper and deeper in debt, he tried to buy time with artificial bubbles and by lowering interest rates. This action only put off the day of reckoning. He was well aware of this, but was hoping a miracle would somehow happen. The government and the people continued to spend their butts off. The peoples’ savings went to a minus number. To address inflation he had to increase interest rates. As a result, more and more people who purchased homes that really were not qualified to do so, found it impossible to keep up with the mortgage payments. Home owners joined into the party by using the equity on their homes to buy their butts off. What will the banks do if they don't get paid? They will sell the owners’ homes. This will increase the supply and lessen the demand there-by lowering the price of homes. Some of the new laws passed in Congress will emasculate peoples’ ability to buy and to meet their obligations. The people used their plastic to obfuscate their dire financial situation. Do people know at twenty five percent interest their debt will double in less than three years? Since two thirds of the economy depends on the consumer buying things, how will they accomplish this when they will be unable to do so? Look not at Greenspan, but rather the government and the people that you see when shaving in the morning.

Belgian (1/22/06; 13:11:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 140751)
@OvS
It is NOT the naked theoretical/academic truth about gold, that is of greatest importance...but... which aspect (out of many) that "they" want to be (officially) attributed (associated with) to gold !!! "They" >>> being the gold-controllers (or mangers, if you prefer) on duty (in power).

Main problem with this (mine) theory : The general public (gold loving) does not like to hear this. It confuses them...and certainly when it is disturbing their personal vision (perception) of gold...that often fail to evolve sufficiantly. Dominated by confusing doubts. That's why the goldprice management + official statements (in combination) are so important for the building of the general public's perceptions on gold and MANY other items.

And BTW, this (theory) also happens for 85% in our global debt-driven-political-economies !!!


If "they" want the public and states to leave gold alone..."they" simply repeat the 1976-1980 event : Push/power the goldprice skyhigh and shoot it down. I don't see this happening, anymore. Watching the goldprice-behavior of the past decades + all the guiding official statements...I stick to the "process" theory. No devastating drama during the initial launch period (present) into revaluation stratosphere.

And the CBs goldctions had to be labeled as "goldsales" rather than "redistribution" for reasons of global gold-perceptions (and other reasons of course)!
The general public is as stupid as simply accepting that the UK (and other CBs) is as stupid as to sell half of its goldreserves at AT-lows ! What a joke.
And now, the general public is told that the goldprice is rising because (the stupid) CBs stopped selling gold ! Jesus !

CBs and international institutions...HAVE BEEN MANAGING THE WORLD'S GOLDPRICE ALREADY FOR MANY DECADES !!!!!!!!!!!
This is NOT a new fenomenon in an historical context.
The great change NOW is...THAT A MAJOR COALITION OF CENTRAL BANKS WANT TO STOP MANAGING THE GOLDPRICE !!!!

And what we saw in this present decade is NOT a temporary fenomenon that will fade away and bring gold back in line with the general perceptions that were builded in the past 3 decades (since 1971).

How many different deceptive lies are we going to have served about the evolutive oilprice !? How can we possibly check the oilreserves in Kuweit (or many other places), when 98% of the commentators hardly know where Kuweit (or Kazakstan) is located ?

But it is no secret at all for the general public, that the era of cheap (seemingly valueless) oil, is definitely over. Soon, the perceptions on oil's -value- will have changed regardless of all its utilities. Same story is building for gold !

Smeagol (1/22/06; 12:54:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 140750)
Kim Thanh
Yess, Ssir MK we would like to ssee these... and more!

How about an 'art' gallery, with high-quality images of all the different bars and coins of the World? And people could contribute images of rarer ones or ones you (CPM) doesn't have on hand?

Jusst a thought...

S.

OvS (1/22/06; 12:13:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 140749)
MK
Yesterday I made a 450 mile
roundtrip (nice to get away
from the family) to a table-
tennis tournament. While I
was driving along I thought
more about MK vs.Belgian.

The function of gold is in
the mind of the beholder,
defined by his financial
and physical circumstances.
vs.
Gold is the only uncorrupted
anker for a world-monetary-
system and the only true
measure of wealth; all other
functions can be replaced by
other means.

?OvS



Caradoc (1/22/06; 12:11:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 140748)
@Goldilox
http://urbansurvival.com/week.htm
You get the credit/blame for me checking into the urban survival site on a regular basis.

Here's snip of their latest:
************
* With all due respects to whale lovers, the biggest story out this week, which will likely prove a driver for all other international events in short order, is the revelation that Kuwait's oil reserves are not even near what they were supposed to be and that Peak Oil is a real problem - right now, now 10 or 20 years off in some hypothetical future somewhere. That's why the price of oil was up again this week, coupled of course, with the problems afoot in places like the Ivory Coast and Nigeria.
* A Bella Ciao article (specifically point #3) today alleges that U.S. banks are receiving instructions from the Department of Homeland Security that in event of an economic collapse, bank officials may be told not to allow people to remove gold (and we assume silver) from their safe deposit boxes. Now, this is only an allegation, but it's something to ask yourself: If there were a breakdown of civil order, how would you fare? Ask your bank next time you go in there.
* Part of the reason why the US Dow Industrials blew off more than 200-points in the Friday frenzy was the word that Iran is moving virtually all of its financial assets to Asia, a move that is synonymous with throwing in with China/Russia as we postulated earlier in the week.
* We also speculated that Iran and Syria almost certainly have a secret (or not so secret now) mutual defense pact in place. Stories about that are starting to percolate up through the media fog today.
******************

Regards,

Caradoc


Belgian (1/22/06; 12:08:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 140747)
error > correction
...Yep they will NOT...

Belgian (1/22/06; 12:06:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 140746)
@MK
Now I do agree with your fine (complete nuanced) post for 100% ! And as an established bullion trader, you are very well placed to communicate "all" gold's utilities.
But...of course, but...

Will the future 3 decades of gold be a copy of the past 3 decades, you describe correctly !? Yep they will : The emphasis of gold's many utilities is already shifting towards the "wealth" function ! And you are gradually going to meet old and new clients who's gold perceptions have changed, are changing.

Just like gold's perceptions have been build (!!!) during the past decades. The one word for gold will gradually (increasingly) become "wealth"...on a broder and broader basis.

States and international institutions, were "always" concerned (rather worried) about the general public's perceptions on gold ! Of utmost importance.

The established gold-houses in Brussel and Paris developped that expert feeling about their clients (gold public) perceptions and actions (buy and sell goldmetal).
I don't know about your clients, but here folks have started to look (experience) gold, fundamentally different. And what is most important...this change in gold perception is very little based on its recent price rise but rather on a much more general feeling.

In lilliputan land, Belgium...we are having now more and more gold prizes (1 KG bars) in public contests. Same is happening in Germany and Russia. This never happened before ! And it is not happening accidentally and/or temporary.

And let us agree on the fact that most of the past 5 milliniums, Gold's main utility was definitely associated/linked to wealth (consolidation and reserve).
And this happened under many forms of course.

Gold for profitable trade (through leverage) will make (much more) place for gold the wealth consolidation. It is this shift that I wish to bring under the spotlights as to provide all gold owners with another opinion...an idea about the future (another purpose) of their goldmetal.

Of course, goldmetal should be traded. Wealth must have a minimum of liquidity. But in order to have gold evolving towards its full wealth status...the present forms of gold-trade must change also. And it is exactly here that we are seeing/feeling a shift towards a more/broader (global) conservative look on gold.

The forces that are presently moving gold's behavior, also changed from the past 3-7 decades. The general public (sheeple) will follow...are already following ! They will go on buying and selling goldmetal for 1001 different reasons. But their goldtrade "behavior" will change gradually, because the gold forces are working on gold's (new) perceptions through new gold fundamentals.
This is happening on a global scale in many different forms of course. And the goldmetal advocates (consultants-hum) are gaining the overhand, worldwide.


MK (1/22/06; 11:09:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 140745)
Belgian: Gold as a utility (smile)
Gold is many things and different things to different people.

It is an insurance.
It is wealth.
It is a hedge.
It is an asset of last resort.
It is money.
It is vehicle for profit.
It is adornment.
It is savings.

For you or I to define it as one thing only is to deny its utility to any number of people to use as they see fit.

More than anything, gold is a financial tool. And just as a hammer can be used to drive a nail, it can be used to tear down a wall. So gold can be an insurance, a representation of wealth, a hedge, an asset of last resort, a money, a vehicle for profit, an adornment, a form of savings -- any or all of the above depending upon the need of the individual utilizing it.

Given any population sampling around the world, if you were to ask the question -- "What is gold to you?" -- you would have a distribution across the spectrum listed above. Since no one has done that as yet, we cannot ascertain the result with certainty.

After more than thirty years of meeting the needs of gold investors, I can tell you without equivocation however that that 90% of the people who contact our offices open the conversation by telling us that they wish to buy gold to protect themselves. You can label that any way you like. I use the word "insurance" for the most part to contrast my viewpoint with those of others who see gold as speculative, investment vehicle purchased to make a return. I don't have a problem with gold for profit (we supply people all the time who have that as their goal); it's simply that most people don't buy gold for that reason. I hope by my reference to gold as an "insurance" to convey the essence of gold ownership from my experience -- asset preservation.

By the way, I recently had the opportunity to purchase ten Kim Thanh from a Viet Namese client I met through this web site. Some of you may recall the story in "The ABCs of Gold Investing" about the Viet Namese couple that sold me their Kim Thanh in the 1970s to finance a new business in the United States. These were boat people who got out of Viet Nam with nothing but the clothes on their back and the Kim Thanh they brought to me to raise funds. Some years later I sold my Kim Thanh and regreted it all these years. Needless to say, I was very happy when I was contacted with more Kim Thanh.

I will ask Randy to photo it and put it up at the site so all can see what Kim Thanh looks like. For me, this small circle is comlete. I bought that gold before the 1970s gold bull market. So now I have my luck back -- a good omen for all.

Allow me to conclude with the following from the first chapter of The ABCs:

"I kept those golden Kim Thanh for many years. They became
something of a symbol for me—a reminder of the
power and importance of gold. Today, when economic and
financial problems have begun to signal deeper, more fundamental
concerns for the United States, I still remember that
Vietnamese couple and how important gold can be to a family's
future. Had the couple escaped with South Vietnamese
paper money instead of gold, I could have done nothing for
them. There was no exchange rate for the South Vietnamese
currency because there was no longer a South Vietnam!
Wisely, they had converted their savings to gold long beforethe helicopters lifted U.S. diplomats off the roof of the
American Embassy in 1975.

Over the years, I have come to understand and appreciate
the many important uses of gold—artistic, cultural, economic,
and industrial. Gold is unsurpassed for jewelry and as
a high-tech conductor of electricity. Gold has medical applications
in dentistry and in treating diseases from arthritis to
cancer. Gold plating is used in computers and in many other
information-age technologies. All of these pale, though, in
light of gold's ancient function as money. As an asset of last
resort, gold makes its most important contribution to the general
welfare. Through the many economic debacles in human
history runs one common thread: those who survive financially
do so because they own gold. In recent years, gold has
regained its glitter among American investors. This renewed
interest in gold is not so much a hedge against the devastation
of war but against something much more subtle—the potential
destruction of wealth from an international collapse of the
dollar and a subsequent economic breakdown.'

_____________

As you can see, Belgian, I remain consistent in my description of gold's redeeming qualities. I do not say what I say about gold to challenge you. Gold is a big tent that holds many beliefs and viewpoints -- including yours and mine. Let's not narrow the field by demanding that others hue to our own definition of the metal and its most appropriate uses. In the end, can any of us truly define gold (by a single word)? At the same time though, we can agree on its utility with respect to the owner.

_____________

And yes the winter sky here is orange and blue.

Go Broncos!


Smeagol (1/22/06; 10:00:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 140741)
It will be interessting...
...to see whether newspapers, radio and TV news-wires in the US-country pick up that UPI sstory, Ssir Belgian... or sweep it under the carpet.

We read through Another's commentary yessterday... it appears that gold will ssoon (is in the process of) be bidding for oil (through the euro), that the ssituation has extended much farther that even Another thought possible, and that the US, insstead of going along - by marking it's remaining gold reserves to market, perhaps? - may attempt to keep it's dollar hegemony AND take the oil too.

Thiss can only end badly.

We found these possts ssingularly interessting in regards to current events:

"Date: Sat Mar 07 1998 23:16
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:

Date: Sat Mar 07 1998 20:01
Neophyte ( Another - ECB gold holdings? ) ID#390249:
Do you know how much gold the ECB will hold as part of its reserves?

Mr. Neophyte,
I do not know. I have knowledge of some discussion for 15% with a individual country holding that is very high. If this is as a final outcome, many CBs will be forced to call in lent gold and buy. I have reason to find this to be as fact!"

"Date: Sat Mar 07 1998 20:17
Psilver Psyched ( @Another ) ID#216217:
The USA has been openly courting Venezuelan oil?

Mr. Psyched,
Please reread the most recent posts from Another. Your question should be: Why would the USA buy most of it's oil from Venezuelan when it would be far cheaper to buy it from the ME using gold? It is possible that the new oil bid will come about with the introduction of the EURO and give that currency the oil backing!

All:
If the EURO is backed with gold in a large way, oil may be purchased with EUROs and even a smaller amount of gold!"

"Date: Wed Mar 25 1998 23:58
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:

REPLY;

Date: Wed Mar 25 1998 23:13
Junior ( ANOTHER @ ) ID#248180:
Copyright © 1998 Junior/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
It appears to me that the strongest position of Oil Exporter Nations outside of the USA is the "Threat" or actually the "Move" to full production resulting in very cheap oil for an extended time period. Does this equal the "Change" or trigger the "change"?

I do not understand?

You state: "The USA/IMF and its' Hegemoney currency could not withstand cheap oil prices."

Mr. Junior,
Be very sure to understand this: They can "stand cheap oil prices". But, it is the loss of having the US$ removed as the "world reserve currency" that makes them "fight" a lower oil price, and the new "world oil currency" that it would bring!

Bring this thought into focus and you will inderstand why Iran and Iraq did fight so long. And why Iraq invaded. The warships are an attempt to keep prices from "falling"! You think long and hard on this!

All:
Look now and see if the US dollar does not "fight" for a high oil price! In every way, the question of supply disruptions is shown as the need for other suppliers. But, other suppliers cannot produce at a lower price? If the gulf states are allowed to bring oil "down" to it's true "fair" production price, in terms of a "correctly higher revalued" gold price, the US dollar would no longer be priced and backed by oil. Any paper trading currency would do. I would say, "if the Euro is strong in gold, and crude oil is allowed to be devalued by gold at $10,000 to $30,000, then all other paper currency reserves held against the EURO would be , "for show?"

"The world is going off the dollar standard as the dollar is going off the oil standard ", find this event "in your time"! We watch this new gold market, together, yes?"

Yes. How can we not? It's happening right in front of us now.

S.

mikal (1/22/06; 09:51:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 140740)
Iran currency stays
http://www.latimes.com/business/nationworld/wire/ats-ap_business10jan22,1,2970236.story?coll=la-wires-business&ctrack=1&cset=true
Iran Insists It Isn't Withdrawing Currency - Los Angeles Times - 01/22/06
Two denials, from a foreign ministry spokesman and from the Central Bank, that up to 50 Billion reserves have been moved from Europe. Said they will keep reserves in banks they trust, and act expediently to move them if necessary.

*How fast will success come to their new oil bourse and currency exchange?
*Can Sec. Snow's "strong dollar" policy continue to elicit support from it's reserve status privilige, from competitive currency devaluations, from corporate repatriations, from Carribean trades?
*Can oil rise much beyond $68 barrel?
*How many new dollars and world currencies will be added to reinflate and cushion economies, governments and banks?

Toolie (1/22/06; 06:07:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 140739)
Abandon parochial currencies
http://www.financialexpress-bd.com/index3.asp?cnd=1/22/2006§ion_id=4&newsid=13387&spcl=no
Snip: Benn Steil 1/22/2006
Of all the objections that have been raised against globalisation - including its alleged damage to income equality, workers' rights, democracy and the environment - none is even remotely as compelling as the devastating periodic havoc wreaked by currency crises in developing countries.
Economists with the most impeccable pro-globalisation credentials, such as the Financial Times' Martin Wolf and my colleague, Jagdish Bhagwati, acknowledge capital flows as the Achilles heel of globalisation.
....
Anti-globalisers will be aghast at such a blow to "monetary sovereignty". But that concept is among the most damaging sovereignty fetishes to have emerged in the 20th century. Spanish and later higher-quality Mexican silver coins circulated freely throughout the US until the late 19th century. Medieval popes actually condemned rulers for debasing currencies, which is today's fatal state solution to every economic toothache.
One need only look at Argentina, generating double-digit inflation once again, to see the anti-globalisation backlash that inevitably emerges from the wreckage of failed experiments with national monies that no one wants to hold. Globalisation's earlier golden age has taught us that capital flows need not be the Achilles heel of today's reincarnation. The key is to refound globalisation on monies that people will hold without compulsion.
........................................
The writer is director of international economics at the Council on Foreign Relations and co-author of Financial Statecraft: The Role of Financial Markets in American Foreign Policy.
— FT Syndication Service
(end snip)


bskija (1/22/06; 05:59:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 140738)
Blue and Orange Sky
Cometose, you might be correct with your blue and orange sky. I have a picture from a digital camera with a blue and orange sky. This picture is proof that they can't dispute. Unfortunately this message system doesn't allow pictures to be sent. Will the bookies change the odds because of this phenomenon?

Belgian (1/22/06; 05:14:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 140737)
Seeker/Druid/Flatliner
http://upi.com/InternationalIntelligence/view.php?StoryID=20060118-052333-1392r
Answer to your question is found in nuanced/balanced text (link). The writer evidences that the he is understanding much of what goes on beyend the screens and what is "played" in front of them. Read it with all the attention it deserves.




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