Welcome to the USAGOLD Gold Discussion Archives. The archives of this gold discussion forum are a treasure trove of information to educate investors about protecting their wealth through portfolio diversification with private gold ownership. The discussion forum also covers the wider issues of the past, present, and future role of gold in international monetary policy and the dynamics of the modern gold markets...
The opinions posted by all guests are expressly their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the management or staff of USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals. The hosting of the public discussion shall therefore not be construed as an endorsement by USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals of any of the opinions posted here.
ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 4/22/2000 All times are U.S. Mountain Time (Yesterday's Discussion.) ThaiGold (4/22/2000; 23:05:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 29199) Warren, Where are You.?. Re: Aristotle (4/22/2000; 16:23:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 29184) ================================================================================...4-22-2000To: AristotleThank you for rising to my baited question. Your answer was not exactlywhat I had expected/baited, but a very adequate and sensible one nevertheless.I had expected the Master would reply (simply).. "It is PriceLess, Grasshopper, PriceLess.."You replied (in part):[quote/snip]So as you can see, my currency price for Gold is very flexible, andchanges with the changing paper price for a year rent.If monthly rent were $1, then my Gold price would be $12. If the monthly rent were priced at $500, then the "Aristotle price" for Gold would be $6,000.As you can see, I feel Gold is undervalued relative to other real wealth by morethan a factor of 12 because as it currently is, one ounce of Gold would not even be adequate to pay a month's rent, far short of the full year I feel would be appropriate.OK, your turn. Based on what YOU know and perceive, what do YOU feel is your fair parting price for Gold?[unquote]So now I must rise to YOUR baited question. (What is MY parting price for Gold?)My answer: It is PriceLess, Master, PriceLess...Having said that, isn't it Ironic that the "markets" perceive it so WorthLess.?.So we have a conundrum of sorts:If "Money" is *not* Gold....-and-Gold is *not* "Money"....Then why do we/mankind/markets foolishly pretend that it is, and price it soequally foolishly.?.Lastly, I'm still awaiting a response from Warren Buffet,to my baited question to him: "What's HIS Silver price.?."Have a nice Holiday, Master Aristotle, and May the Bunny Bring You moreGolden (nest)Eggs.ThaiGold...Equally PriceLess============================================================================== Peter Asher (4/22/2000; 22:32:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 29198) Solomon Weaver's Mines Short Gold AND airlines in 2050 Solomon Weaver (4/22/2000; 21:12:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 29194)Here is the prediction. (Gold really a bulk item by 2100)Solomon: About thirty years ago there was a sci-fi of a future earth where intercontinental transit was via tunnels that descended into the earth parabolically and then curved back up to their destination. Operating as a form of reverse funicular, the gravitational drop of the decent provided the acceleration and momentum to power the return back up, requiring drive power only to overcome friction. Of course there are the problems of enough strength and friction to survive earthquakes and continental drift, but technology has no bounds, yes?And fodder for new plots of disaster movies. $5 Indian (4/22/2000; 21:39:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 29197) Japan supported "Asia Central Bank" http://www.usagold.com This development of the Miyazawa banking bloc could be the door the corporations will direct themselves towards. It means Japan would become the Switzerland of Asia. Using strong currency to leverage their influences and by peaceful means which it's neighbors want to see. A military Japan would scare the little tigers into the US camp so fast. This currency stabilization mechanism including China means US looses influence in the region. We could no longer play one country against another and European lenders would also loose access to deal directly with the tigers but would compete with Japan's offers for loans and support first. Japan becomes lowest bidder on every loan it wants to make by device and design and not only by bid ammounts. It precludes cross alliances and multibillion yen inter-Asian corporate stock swaps thus cementing relationships that before were adversarial. It is the beginning of a Union of Asian States. At the threshold of such a financial shift, Japan would slowly abandone the policy of supporting the dollar and would devalue the yen not by buying dollars but by buying the other worthless currencies of the small tigers. So Japan turns to help its neighbors by supporting their paper. The trend is also a precurser to their decision to begin divesting of assets in the US that could be subject to massive lawsuit attacks as they see happening to our tobacco industry (90's). Courts apply massive liability awards against manufacturers and it drives our industries to Mexico and Canada. All Nafta was about was to make the manufacturing shift a little easier as to taxes and tariff problems. Pressures of business are like water that pile up and seek a channel to run into. Once they move it cuts a path deeper and wider until it floods the next valley. Japan will find a way out and it probably won't be a big war like what was the excuse to pull US out of its depression. If you realize how much the concept of PEACE is ingrained into the Japanese psyche having been defeated only one time in its whole history and lessons taught were learned well, it leads me to believe they will find a paeceful solution. They still sing corporate songs like we taught them to do in the 50's. The only Achille's heal they have is the vast supply lines that have to be maintained to provide raw materials. One missing ingredient and it all stops, be it oil, coal, ores, pulp, metals, or unique chemicals. So they desperately need to maintain alliances with "resource colonies" but never become too dependent on one. This is where they have failed. They relied on constant revenues from USA and the markets here are saturated. The financing of consumer debt has reached its limits of over-extension. This Asia Central Bank that Japan wants to support is like doing a "castle move" in chess then they bring out the queen and this would be the unleasing of the yen to soak up and support the worthless paper of the tigers who need the help. As a lioness swats her cubs to get back from danger so this move would be the counter move to a falling dollar and the perils of those stuck holding them. Feel free to add to or subtract from this. I'm just throwing some thoughts around. Dr. Jones (4/22/2000; 21:33:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 29196) May 4th... beginning of the melt down? http://www.grantspub.com/productivity/GR18n06a.pdf Those of you who have been skeptical of 3rd and 4th quarter productivity numbers may find the above link interesting...Harvard economics professor, James Medoff, and Needham, MA, economist, Andrew Harless, have exposed the statistical illusion presented by the BLS in 3rd and 4th quarter productivity figures. They point to two errors in the way Y2K preparations were accounted for in the second half of 1999 and predict the figures for the first quarter of this year - to be released by the BLS May 4th - will be much lower than the market expects.The findings, summarized in the above link, are as follows:"Not only did the government statistics exaggerate the output of the computer industry over those six Y2K-obsessed months (for reasons having to do with the way in which computer prices are calculated). They also grossly underestimated the number of hours worked to achieve those results. It was this twin error, that, in no small part, enlarged the legend of the productivity boom and uncorked the newest bottle of speculative moonshine. Rarely has a botched calculation delighted and enriched to many guileless people."Great reading for those who might have wondered how we could be so productive during the second half of 1999 when so many resources were being siphoned off to address Y2K...One of many indicators of the coming paper market meltdown.Got gold? Solomon Weaver (4/22/2000; 21:28:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 29195) What is money? Aristotle I saw it a different way...Let us say that we take a young fellow (American) and put in one hand a new Sacagawa Dollar and in the other a British Pound (also a brassy object).Both are substantial. Both are coins. Both are money. But the dollar "feels" more like money in his heart because he knows the coin of his realm.So, the master realizes that money (no matter how real the coin) is only a proxy for something deep in the human spirit...the willingness to work and the desire to live. Money allows the human mind to go beyond barter...to seek a "common denominator". Money in and of itself is not evil..it is not debased...in fact, it is very noble because it allows a platform upon which human action and interraction can be rewarded...it allows transmutation of material and human energy. In some way, the perfect money is the "philosopher's stone" of the alchemist. It allows lead (human laziness) to be converted into gold (human action).When the pupil asks "what is money?" he is considering the "spell" that money has over us...his real question is "what is greed?" "What is wealth and not-wealth?".Time to go over to the gold trail...Poor old Solomon Solomon Weaver (4/22/2000; 21:12:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 29194) Here is the prediction. (Gold really a bulk item by 2100) Humans occupy the thin surface of the earth.The COSTS of tunneling into the earth have always been high, and this isone of the reasons why PMs have remained expensive.But, considering the amount of space and noise which our roads take up, it makes sense that we seek ways to build low cost tunnels and move transportation underground.I believe that in the next 25-50-100 years, earth moving technology will evolve.Imagine a tunneling machine in 2050. It is basically a very large object about the size of a large business hotel. At the end where new earth is being absorbed, it quietly hums away and grinds...in the bowels of the factory, the "valuable" components of the ore are enriched. The "useless" material undergoes a chemical modification which transforms it into "smart materials" which are used to create the tunnel wall at the back end. The walls will be 100 times stronger and just as beautiful as the walls in modern subways. Digging at 50 feet per hour and 120O feet per day or about 100 miles per year, the "value" created by these machines will be the "development" of large tracts of underground space for use as roadways, shopping malls, concert halls, sports facilities, factory space, etc. the side products of these machines will be iron, copper, zinc, gold, silver, etc.Some of you will laugh at this...but just think it out...we currently go into the ground, get out steel and limestone (concrete), and then ship this all to the city where we build huge buildings and massive roadways...we drive in crowded conditions to work in the middle of one of these buildings (not seeing the light of day). As a contrast, one of the most elegant meals I ever had in Tokyo was in a very beautiful restaurant which was in the underground plaza in the business district. Japanese building companies are already designing massive underground living complexes.Our technology is going to open up "low cost" development of the underground, and in doing so create unprecedented access to the riches of the mining industry. Imagine the impact on gold if a region rich in gold ore is chosen as the site for a new sub-terra city....The hundreds of tons per year flowing out of the "excavation" work will hardly be noticed, as all eyes are looking at the way the city is created.This is still a few years away...but when it is unfolding, then gold history will never repeat itself. (And silver may replace copper as the preferred metal for electric cable.)Poor old Solomon Aristotle (4/22/2000; 21:09:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 29193) Reply to Solomon Weaver "By the way.....on your Master what is money riddle...I am correct to interpret that the master implies that in truth, money is actually nothing more than itself...only it then becomes "what we make of it"???"I'm not quite sure you're describing precisely the "solution." Real money is far more more important to be just any ol' thing that a pupil might choose to call "money." That's why Aristotle told the pupil that the answer to such a question ("What is money?") would only satisfy the questioner if he were in fact also a Master and could therefore answer his own question. Recall, Aristotle said to the pupil, "When you have a moment to do so, look at it. What you shall see is money."Aristotle knew that a pupil might indeed look at a great many things and never see money, whereas a master would recognize that in determining what it was specifically that he needed to look at in order to see what money was, he would in fact have answered his own question.Gold. Look at it. ---Aristotle Chris Powell (4/22/2000; 21:07:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 29192) What's next for GATA http://www.egroups.com/message/gata/437? GATA's plan for going to Washington to askCongress to investigate manipulation of thegold market.To subscribe to GATA's dispatches by emailand get them immediately so you don't haveto go look for them, send an email to:gata-subscribe@eGroups.com Gold Trail Update (4/22/2000; 20:49:00MDT - Msg ID:29191) The Gold Trail Discussion has been Updated The Gold Trail Discussion has been updated. Click on the link to read the latest updates. Solomon Weaver (4/22/2000; 20:37:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 29190) Why the NASDAQ deserves a somewhat higher PE ration than the SP 500 One of the great fallacies of some gold bugs is too believe that gold is the only true holder of value...just buy some and wait for the world to collapse and be rich. The only true holder of value is our ability to collaborate with eachother. We are almost completely incapable of survival without our "system" in place...I fully concur with those out there who say that putting some of your savings in gold allows one to sleep well and live honestly.My profession is not really that of a philosopher...I am a biotechnologist...I was spending some time on the internet today reading the SEC reports on some of the companies which I had on my radar screen about 3 years ago....I was amazed how many of them have burned through $50-100 million dollars researching a drug, only to find the drug almost worthless, and now they are almost bankrupt. Does this mean that the company created no value??? Certainly not. What it does mean, is that much of the research costs of discovering new drugs is now being borne by the shareholders of small technology companies and is no longer hidden inside of the research costs at large pharma companies.In the same way, much of the costs of creating the new business models for cybereconomies is being borne by the shareholders of small internet companies. Take Amazon.com for example...their aggressive move to dominate online book and music selling created a massive reaction in the retail industry to go online....I see no value in the stock of Amazon.com (except if Coca-cola wants to buy it for its trade name like Warner did with AOL), but there has been a lot of "value" created by the "fear" that Amazon struck in the hearts of the mainstream retailers.I think that we will continue to find that many of the most important companies in new areas will be companies like Netscape, Amazon, E-Bay, etc. that have almost no "profits" but have a massive impact on the state and evolution in the cyber economy...thus, for a brief time, they DO justify a market-cap, even without a PE (due to no earnings).Remember how economists point out that the baby boomers defined the trends...diapers in 50s...music in the 60s....etc. Today we have a generation of young people who may almost never read a book or magazine...but they are on the web...lots of images...call them generation X or whatever...perhaps they are brash and too cool for their shoes....not realizing that money does not grow on trees. Perhaps a good recession will do them good...but their tastes will not change.We are moving fast forward into the greatest experiment that humanity has ever undertaken...times of great technological development and massive social restructuring. Gold is certainly an important anchor...and certainly will be a fundamental financial ballast, in a world awash on the high seas of change...But, one thing we must always be wary of....history can be a teacher but it will no longer repeat itself...My next post will contain an unusual prediction...Poor old Solomon Solomon Weaver (4/22/2000; 20:03:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 29189) Yes Aristotle....Mr. Gresham is pretty close to the mark. Mr Gresham (4/22/2000; 8:19:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 29167)The Zen of Gold -- Solomon!First there is a mountain.Then there is no mountain.Then there is a mountain.------------------------------Solomon addsFirst there is a mountain. But the perception of this mountain is clouded by false understanding of the nature of the mountain. (TODAY WE HAVE A PAPER GOLD MARKET WHICH MANY DO NOT UNDERSTAND IS AN ILLUSORY PERCEPTION OF THE UNDERLYING PHYSICAL MARKET). The mountain is more related to what we think it is or what we want it to be than what it simply is. (THE "VALUE" OF GOLD IS CAPTURED IN AN ILLUSORY POG, WHICH IS MORE RELATED TO WHAT LARGE DOLLAR HOLDERS THINK IT SHOULD BE THAN WHAT THE "VALUE" SIMPLY IS.)Then there is no mountain. As the mind strives to comprehend the true understanding of the mountain it is first forced to reject the mountain, until it realizes that it is the "perception" of the mountain that is false. (AS THE LIQUIDITY OF THE PAPER MARKET COLLAPSES, MANY REJECT GOLD, UNTIL THEY COME TO SEE THAT IT IS THE PAPER ILLUSION WHICH WAS FALSE.) Then there is a mountain. The mountain was never really gone. Only the mind's understanding of it has changed. The mind now see's the mountain with a true perception which is free of illusion...and the mind, like the mountain, is at peace. (AT THE END, THE TRUE UNDERSTANDING OF GOLD EMERGES, AND ALL REALIZE THAT THE "VALUE" OF GOLD HAD NEVER BEEN GONE, IT WAS JUST HIDDEN BEHIND THE PAPER ILLUSION.)------Aristotle - I like your answer too, than when in the midst of the climb the mountain is gone...only at the bottom and top is the "mountain" just a mountain.By the way.....on your Master what is money riddle...I am correct to interpret that the master implies that in truth, money is actually nothing more than itself...only it then becomes "what we make of it"???Poor old SolomonI'm not sure it's a koan. But it does refer to the experience of the Zen (gold) student, who has gone his whole life seeing the world in a certain, limited, way. Leigh (4/22/2000; 19:47:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 29188) Scrappy Dear Scrappy: I'm SO glad you wrote in!! I've thought of you very often and wondered how you've been. Please write again sometime and let us know how things are going for you! Scrappy (4/22/2000; 18:59:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 29187) Happy Easter, everyone. I hope you are all enjoying the spring as well as I am.I've continued to lurk n' learn, and want to thank you all for the continuing education. Love, scrappy. Goldmak (4/22/2000; 17:16:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 29186) very interesting repost from Kitco Date: Thu Apr 20 2000 14:32Rick (@ ORO....here is a post from Tzadeak ) ID#413328:Copyright © 2000 Rick/Kitco Inc. All rights reservedTZADEAK* @ ORO copyright all rights reserved 4/20/00 I have been waiting patiently for my "royalties" for my contibutions to your now famous "book", ( I knew you would like that one ) ..... On a serious note, I've had an opportunity to review you latest "snippet" and have few very brief comments..... ( I understand you're testing the waters ) ..... I have included, below, my original post of 12/97, which has "seeded" many of the themes in your latest "exceptional" post...... BTW I also noticed ,you have now incorporated my "plunder'" idea, and I must say, you have expanded on it very nicely..... As I have indicated on a number of occasions, there is no "trail" ahead of us in matters realting to the fiats valuations for Gold ,real or perceived, since that necessarily involves in part a myriad of complex actions and reactions, human and others, that don't always, if ever behave the way one would expect......Gold will lay the "trail" ahead.... that being said.... I would not be as certain, in terms of a "time" frame for the "collapse".... As I had indicated in 97, the "FIGHT" for Gold has begun, the first "battle" was the so called Washington Accord.....I still chuckle at the "title" of the said agreement, when a more appropriate "title" would be the "EURO" Accord.... I also indicated that this "FIGHT" will last a long time, as I continue to believe. As an example your "missing" 800 yearly/tons is now being covered in part with "scrap" recovery and unreported Gold mining activities in number of "foreign" countries......the covert "plunder thing"..... and of course "other" means..... I am somewhat surprised that you have not expanded "further" on my 97 post's "Gold Backing" US$ in view of the very recent comments by Greenspan on that very issue...If I may suggest, re-read his comments very carefully and you may find a few "chilling" potentials..... ciao for now..... repostDate: Sun Dec 07 1997 21:36 TZADEAK* ( @ Another, "Thunder" only happens when it's Raining.... ) ID#372344: Nice to hear from you.... I see you've been lurking......I believe IMHO that we along with most Kitcoites agree a large up move in Gold is near. Our only difference appears to be in,,,, how much,,, how fast........ Here is a "thought" for you,,,,, What if the US and maybe others decided to "avoid" the coming crisis by announcing that the new "paper" $ they have been printing for the last 5 years or so is really the New "DOMESTIC $" with "GOLD BACKING" and that the US would turn "inward" much like in the 1930's with almost all its OILand GOLD ect... labor etc supply coming from The America's and leave the rest of the world holding "the bag"... ( FOREIGN $ ) ... . By the way , in the 1930's the US gave out large sums of paper $ to North American miners to produce Gold, and those stocks did well indeed. I believe ( as mentioned in my earlier post ) the GAME now is at "Who" is going to INFLATE? the US, Japan , .....The latter was an ally of the Nazis Thus know all about German HYPERINFLATION....... IMHO "THE WAR ON GOLD" will be coming to an end..... and "THE FIGHT FOR GOLD" will begin....... This 'FIGHT' will last a "long time". .....As you know paper currencies last only so long 20, 40, maybe 60 years before they are burried in the "currency graveyard".... and it is only "near and/or at their death" that the THUNDER of GOLD'S !!!POWER!!! is heard.......... It has begun to rain......... Return to Kitco Homepage ------------------------------------------------------------------------ totalamateur (4/22/2000; 16:33:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 29185) Thanks to Henri Seems we have the forum almost to ourselves this Easter! Thank you for your advice. Sounds good. I would like to talk more with you about these things. Maybe we could work something out together. Could you please contact me through forgold@hotmail.com Aristotle (4/22/2000; 16:23:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 29184) For Solomon Weaver and ThaiGold Solomon, I saw the challenge you posed to the forum--------------"...do you know the meaning of this KOAN:First there is a mountain.Then there is no mountain.Then there is a mountain.Any guesses out there?"------------and I thought you might enjoy a similar mind-expander I offered many months ago. Here it is as follows.* * * * *((Overheard near the Academy))Pupil: Kind sir, would you mind if I asked a question of you?Aristotle: (with a smile) I'd say you're about one question too late with your request. Pupil: Huh?Ari: Do you have yet a third question, my young friend? What's on your mind?Pupil: What is money?Ari: Only a zen master could answer such a question.Pupil: But that is why I asked YOU.Ari: ((smiles)) Of course, my fine friend, and yet there is this difficulty too--such a question should also be asked ONLY by a master, for only a master will understand the answer given.Pupil: But I have been in training for a long time now. How will I know when I have become a master?Ari: My, but you have a short memory! Did I not just now reveal one such suitable test?Pupil: It is true that you did. And so to discover the one or both together, I shall ask you now, "What is money?"Ari: In answer to "What is money?" I need only tell you this: "When you have a moment to do so, look at it. What you shall see is money." I must now be on my way, and shall leave you to dwell on this as you see fit.Master: ((after a brief moment of thinking)) Eureka! How could it be otherwise?!Ari: It is always a pleasure and an honor to look upon a master such as you.Master: As you already know, it's not so much what you see, but where you choose to look.Aristotle: Of course...how could it be otherwise.* * * * *In regard to your mountain question, I'd say Mr Gresham's (4/22/2000; 8:19:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 29167) is nearly spot on.To me, the three mountain phrases represent a "journey" that can be undertaken on a physical, intellectual, or spiritual level. Mr. Gresham aptly described the intellectual "journey" where the mountain is representative of a problem that requires an effort of thinking and learning to solve. Once the understanding is attained, the perception of the mountain as a problem is gone. It is replaced by the memory of the "mountain" as a problem which is now become a mountain of knowledge and intimate familiarity with every facet, rock, and crag of the former puzzle.The representation of a physical journey is very easy to grasp. You see a mountain before you on your path---"First there is a mountain." Then you toil your way to the summit, from which vantage point the mountain is gone because it is easy downhill walking in all directions---"Then there is no mountain."As you continue your easy journey in any direction you may choose, the mountain reappears behind you---"Then there is a mountain."ThaiGold, you asked--ThaiGold (04/19/00; 22:58:03MDT - Msg ID:29075)Attn: Aristotle, What's YOUR GoldPrice.?.Comment: I'm unsure anymore of what's the "actual"price of gold (etc). There's Paper_Gold. There'sPhysical_Gold. There's Spot_Gold. I post here theSpot_Gold. But I'd rather post the Absoloute MostReal price imaginable... So I'll just ask Aristotle:"At what price would you part-with an ounce of yours.?."A beautiful question, my fine friend. As I sit here contemplating you question, I have the benefit of four British Gold sovereigns spread out across the top of my keyboard for inspiration. It occurs to me that the fair price I would demand, based upon what I now know and perceive to be true, would be either three or four months of shelter/lodging for each sovereign (in lieu of paying cash rent) in a modest apartment in a typical American city. Therefore, my price per ounce would work out to be one year of quality shelter (or a little longer) per ounce of Gold.I'm sure you will agree that those terms are more meaningful than saying that my price for parting with an ounce would be such-and-such a number of currency units. This is in keeping with my philosophy that currency is to be used to increase your "net worth" in real wealth. As soon as you have made the currency exchange for the real wealth of food, clothing, shelter, or Gold, what is the sense of risking any of them on the gambling table in a bid to increase your account of currency units?Think of it this way, when someone goes to Las Vegas and gambles away the currency in his wallet, or even drains his bank account while playing the roulette wheel, we might tend to say he paid a pretty high price for his day of fun in trying to win currency. But if he left Vegas literally without the shirt on his back, and without the deed to his house, we would surely say he has a problem, and call him a "poor bastard" at that.Please also understand what I am saying here is not that I would insist that my one ounce be used directly in payment for the yearlong rent on an apartment. I would have no problem making the intermediate monetary exchange for the cash needed to settle the deal. I am only saying that I will only roll Gold wealth into other forms of wealth, I WON'T roll it into currency for currency's sake alone. So as you can see, my currency price for Gold is very flexible, and changes with the changing paper price for a year rent. If monthly rent were $1, then my Gold price would be $12. If the monthly rent were priced at $500, then the "Aristotle price" for Gold would be $6,000.As you can see, I feel Gold is undervalued relative to other real wealth by more than a factor of 12 because as it currently is, one ounce of Gold would not even be adequate to pay a month's rent, far short of the full year I feel would be appropriate.OK, your turn. Based on what YOU know and perceive, what do YOU feel is your fair parting price for Gold? RossL (4/22/2000; 15:03:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 29183) Cage Rattler $ / SDR http://users.erinet.com/3354/gold2400.htm I made a little chart from the data available at http://www.imf.org/ (click the link above) There was no data for the Euro on 4/21. It will be interesting to see if the trend continues next week. gidsek (4/22/2000; 14:22:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 29182) another factor supporting the Yen Japan is the worlds' largest (only?) creditor nation, massive amounts of Yen are owed to Japanese banks and institutions and it is necessary to buy Yen in order to make these payments. The '90 collapse of the Japanese markets and economy has resulted in a deflation due to their creditor status.It is anticipated by gold bugs that the opposite situation and currency picture will result here as the US is heavily indebted.gidsek Goldmak (4/22/2000; 14:18:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 29181) interesting, repost from Kitco Date: Sat Apr 22 2000 15:21nomercy (Is the Euro ) ID#207145:Copyright © 2000 nomercy/Kitco Inc. All rights reservedIn the last year the Euro has 'lost' over 20% of its value versus the US at the same time their growth is rising from 2% to projected 3.6% in 2000 and 3.5% in 2001. This 'devaluation' has enabled the EU to steal markets from both the US and UK. Trade deals have been made with South American countries and Mexico in the last 3 months, right in the US backyard. The UK manufacturing sector is being taken to the cleaners as they are unable to compete. It appears that both the US and UK strategy, of maintaing their currencies artificially high is going to bite them up their butt, sooner rather than later. The 'gambit' over the New Economy and the Interent hasn't panned out. The US and UK "growth" has been accelarated as they poured billions in trying to construct a 'new industry'. The question is is the new industry, e-commerce, generating enough revenues to justify the investment? Thus far, the returns have been negligible and more than 1/2 of dot.coms are cash starving. Which currency are going to going to oblivion? Oh yeah if you want to help the US and UK in making dot.com's successful don't forget to CLICK ON THE BANNERS of each site you visit. It's a fundemental method of Dot.com generating revenues. If you are a UK citizen and supporter turf out BROWN. He is incompetent Who else would be willing to sell their Gold reserves at the lowest possible price? Yeah right Canada. And who started the ball rolling in bringing Gold down? Yeah right Australia. Which Banks have the most exposure to gold derivates? Yeah right USA ...........No wonder EU wants to break away from this nonsense Richard, Oregon (4/22/2000; 14:07:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 29180) Greeting Everyone - Happy Easter Happy Easter to everyone. I don't often get a chance to write anymore and seldem to lurk (going through a career change at this late age in life). I do glean those little nuggets from time to time and really appreciate the forum. MK & Co. have done a wonderful job. God bless! YGM (4/22/2000; 13:22:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 29179) Nostradamus.....Comments on "Paper" Gold & Silver...... "Ancient Phophesy" or "Ancient Wisdom"?? "The copies of gold and silver inflated, which after the theft were thrown into the lake, at the discovery that all is exhausted and dissipated by the debt. All scripts and bonds will be wiped out." -- Nostradamus VIII.28Interesting to say the least........"Happy Easter to all"...YGM Cage Rattler (4/22/2000; 12:40:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 29178) $ / SDR The $/SDR seems to be breaking out to the downside of the 1.34 - 1.35 range that has been in effect most of this year. YGM (4/22/2000; 12:25:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 29177) CyclePro Link..... http://www.geocities.com/~CyclePro/Charts/SP500/Outlook.htm I haven't seen this site posted for along time and it also is an excellent place to visit for info...........YGM YGM (4/22/2000; 12:03:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 29176) Money Manipulation... http://www9.pair.com/xpoez/money/money.html pair...not pain...sorry.........YGM. YGM (4/22/2000; 12:00:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 29175) Money Manipulation... http://www9.pain.com/xpoez/money/money.html Vast amounts of informative reading at this site for thosewho seek sources.........YGM. Bonedaddy (4/22/2000; 11:27:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 29174) I feel so warm and fuzzy inside! Little Elian and Poppa are happily reunited. Ol' Janie reigns her mount west, into the setting sun. Father and son should be back in the land of fine cigars and rusting cars by tomorrow night. (They are going home now aren't they?????) I hope there isn't a "rule of law" that remains to be settled? Kinda reminds me of the closing scenes of Casablanca. "If you don't get on that plane, you'll regret it...maybe not today...or tomorrow.... but soon and for the rest of your life." Hey folks, if they don't get on that plane today, or tomorrow, buy GOLD soon, Flight $280 may be the last plane out. Goldsun (4/22/2000; 9:56:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 29173) Zen and the Art of Protecting Gold Alan Watts' widow once mentioned to me that he was a dedicated member of the National Rifle Association.Goldsun $5 Indian (4/22/2000; 9:29:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 29172) Go BUSH with 15 million new Hispanic recruits! Elian,"the camera is your friend" http://www.usagold.com Welcome Total Amateur to the Arena of the Gladiators of Gold. Where TGB's get stomped and carted away. Was it a free thinker's playground or just a river of dispair ready to overflow its banks due to the runoff of so many underwater long positions. Never-the-less let us not give up hope though Charlemagne dost not yet arrive to re-institute thy most sacred golden standard. Though we have a common enemy, that being our our greed for buying in too early, seldom do we unite. Enough with the drivel and back to the markets...........It's a global sellfest I tell ya, last week Nikki had a run in her stockings and upset quite a few friends at Friday's party. May we soon see "the attacks on the DAX" Ya, and probably would pull das capital out of the US Naz and Dow for margin covering. A total guess for the liquidation mess. Anyway we can surmise that the ploy of the PPT is to sustain foreign inflows into US equities markets to alleviate the monthly trade imbalances. But for her to do the triple axle she needs more momentum and methinks she is headed for a fall. When these foreign inflows abate then we know the numbers won't be easy to hide, that's the fire ready to light under gold. It's all turning to Jeckle and Hyde. I'd say we have about 20 minutes into the open to establish short positions on techy crap and it's all rolling over and down. No need to predict the bottoms as a bear market has no bottom. If it doesn't fail Mon. we can watch the semiconductors as they get soft. Its then that the rollover begins. But as you beat the tar out of a fellow TBG named Old Gold whose only crime was saying what no one else had the guts to say.........Keep on wondering on..........and get ready with your shovels to bury more metal but this time when you choose a new location, be sure to visit it a few times afterwards so you don't forget where the spot was like what almost happened last time, remember.============================================================Total Amateur, you olympic typist, where is the link to the speed reading course so I can finish your last post. Just watch out for any open sores on your legs when you wade into this sea of dispair for truely truely I assure you that ye are paranna bait. They only have mercy on you because you are new. So ask a someone who knows a little less than you to write in so the bully buryers have another victim to stomp that your psyche may endure long enough to eventually gain a fine education from this wonderful site. "We don't want no trader education" "We don't want any futures markets mind control" "No weepy sarcasm on the forum" "Hey Trader gold bugs, leave us buryers alone!" "All in All It's just another brick in the ground"It's me the paper goldbug you want, let the boy go! Henri (4/22/2000; 9:23:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 29171) Solomon's Zen Koan The refrain of the Donovan song is:"Look upon my garden wall a snail thats what it is" Henri (4/22/2000; 8:34:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 29170) total amateur -Post 29161 Find a Jr. Exploration Company sitting on top of a mountain of gold but needing financing to develop it. Cut them a good funding deal...Gold at production cost in return til debt is paid-up Henri (4/22/2000; 8:25:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 29169) Magical yen I don't trust something so foreign as 0% interest rates. Maybe they should just pay us to borrow the yen (negative interest) Take 10 million and only have to pay back 9 million. Good way to accomplish yen appreciation? Less yen around and same basis? Oh yeah I forgot they want a weak yen.What is the real difference between that and borrowing 10 million USD for thirty years at 8%. When the thirty years are up and you pay back the USD's worth only a small fraction of their worth when borrowed. Wheelbarrows of USD's for a cup of rice. Cage Rattler (4/22/2000; 8:23:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 29168) One factor lending support to the yen Figures from Japan's Investment Trusts Association show that the annual move into foreign currency-denominated investment trusts is much lower than in previous years. Initial subscription has so far amounted to 6.7 billion yen this month, compared to ten times the amount in April 1999. Investors are more attracted to Japanese stocks, and are concerned about volatility in the US. Mr Gresham (4/22/2000; 8:19:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 29167) The Zen of Gold -- Solomon! First there is a mountain.Then there is no mountain.Then there is a mountain.I'm not sure it's a koan. But it does refer to the experience of the Zen (gold) student, who has gone his whole life seeing the world in a certain, limited, way.Then the first period of Zen learning (USAGold Forum lurking/posting) shakes up that worldview and everything is turned upside down. All previous learnings are called into question, might even be thought to all be false and worthless, in this new light of revelation and the excitement of discovery.Finally, the new knowledge is integrated into the learner's life, he returns to former pursuits, family, his more consistent character reasserts itself, but he is forever changed by the learning experience.Remember! Before there was Alan Greenspan, there was Alan Watts! (Yes, I know -- the great Zen exponent was reputed to have drunk himself to death. Not the only one. Be happy for our simple lives as cultural unknowns.) Bonedaddy (4/22/2000; 8:16:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 29166) What are the chances... ....that south Florida ends up in a shootin' fracas over "lil Elian"? The governments propensity to make mountains into mole hills not withstanding, hasn't this little drama seemed too orchistrated? Anytime the American public (sheeple) are spoon fed a story for this long, there is usually an under"lying" motive. (yes, savor the double entendre there) With the Oklahoma City tragedy, the message was "patriots are hatemongers and murders". With the Colombine tragedy, the message was "those who oppose gun control support school violence". So far, it looks as if less than half of the people are buying this crap. Still I wonder, what is the point of the "lil' Elian drama" and what do the Clintonistas have to gain? Does Clintons employer (China) want El Jefe to gain a better militant foothold in south Florida? Whatever drama results can easily be blamed on the obviously senile Attorney(turned)General Janet Reno. Our economy is a house of cards. Janet Reno is a tottering old crone. Florida is tinderbox where ethnic diversity has become very strained. George Dubya's brother can be scapegoated to make George look bad. We have Pro-Castro and Anti-Castro Hispanics, the KKK, drugs, and the makings of another long hot summer. The catch phrase has become "the rule of law". The Clintonistas like to load the language with catch phrases. Watch them when they do. Amatures have a habit of telegraphing their punches. Richard640 (4/22/2000; 7:57:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 29165) THC & all--the amazing YEN How the yen has any international standing is a great mystery and a stunning victory (so far) for the fiat currency regimes--With "free" yen (zero interest rates) and round the clock running of the presses for a decade, the Yen is truly the 8th wonder of the world--If, as we say on these forums, the U.S. dollar is toilet paper, then the Yen does not have even this minimal functional value--t'is more akin to a urine-soaked gutter rag. Richard640 (4/22/2000; 7:42:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 29164) Mr. & Mrs./Ms. forum reader, meet Andrew Addison My good friend Andy consults to institutional money managers. He has been quoted in Barron's Marketwatch column for many years and has contributed articles-(Uponroof-if you could post his quote this week, I'd appreciate it). What is so unique about Andy is that for at least ten years he has been correctly bullish and uncannily predicted the step by step unfolding of this mega-bull mkt. He said way back in 19993 that by the end of the decade the DOW would be well into 5 figures--So what's my point--Just this--He makes an astoundingly bearish call on the Nasdaq--Here it is----"While rallies lasting a few days will be sharp, the entire vertical advance from late October-(at 2800)-should be retraced, and possibly back down to the 2450 low.----------Unlike prior recent sharp "waterfall" declines, this one was not preceded by an outside event. There was no equivalent of the LTC implosion, no savings and loan crisis, and no threat to the world's oil fields (i.e. Kuwait). Once these problems were attacked, the markets began to improve. This time it may take longer for the Nasdaq's wounds to heal. If the technical action of the online brokers is an indicatior, then Nasdaq's bear phase has further to go in time and price.----The double top in the 5000-5100 area....has been increasingly formidable. Displaying similarities to the 1987 double tops in the DJIA and S&P averages." ----I can't impress upon you how unique Andy is. He is not some two-bit letter writer with a 187 subscribers--He is a big time consultant and a sophisticated & brilliant manager--I know of no call of his that was not a bull's-eye. sourdough (4/22/2000; 7:41:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 29163) Asian currency http://business-times.asia1.com.sg/5/mkts/msimamk.html#deal Could this press release be related? Black Blade (4/22/2000; 5:57:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 29162) Gore just lost Florida! Looks like GW just locked up the Hispanic vote in Florida. Janet Reno is jabberin away and shaken like a leaf (parkinson's disease I suspect) - makes Muhammad Ali look quite fit in comparison. Can barely hear her above the incessant rattling of her shaking against the podium. All Billy-Bob has to do now is hold the phoney new economy together enough until Jan 20 next year, then blame the market collapse on the incoming Republicrats. Hmmmm..... totalamateur (4/22/2000; 3:15:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 29161) Investing in bullion, a few questions.... Let's say I am a billionaire grown weary and leery of the stock market and wanted to buy bullion. In what way and to what extent would the said shortage of physical gold hinder me accumulating let's say 1 billion dollars worth of physical gold?What would be the best way to go about buying this to avoid driving up the price?Anyone out there got 100 tons to spare? THC (4/22/2000; 1:10:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 29160) One other thing........ I forgot to mention one other thing:He says Japan has received clear warnings from the US to NOT raise interest rates. Apparently the 0% interest rate policy is getting old and they want to move away from it, but it would deeply damage the $ and the US markets..........or at least that is supposedly why the US issued the warning.THC THC (4/22/2000; 1:02:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 29159) Report from Japan Today I spent some time chatting with a client of mine here in Kyoto, who is the president of a local company that is currently preparing to do an IPO. He is relatively well connected, and has strong contacts with people in business, government, and educational circles.We discussed how the current "dollar based trade system" primarily benefits the US. I asked why Japan and Europe had supported such a system for so long. He explained that the Japanese leaders were aware of the issue, but due to security concerns, they have been unable to address it.However, they have developed a "Miyazawa Plan" to set up an "Asian currency/bank", and to date this plan has been strongly opposed by the United States. He mentioned that it might be easiest to implement such a strategy should there be a crisis in the US$ and/or the US stock market. Such a crisis would provide a strong impetus for Japan and the other Asian nations to set up their own currency/banking system.I thought some here my find this interesting.FWIW,THC Simply Me (4/22/2000; 0:54:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 29158) Solomon Weaver's Mountain Riddle Well, I know for sure it's a song by Donovan (late 1960s?).But I don't remember the rest of the words to the song, so Idon't know if he answered the koan. Is it a journey over the mountain itself? I love riddles! Maybe that's what attracts me to reading this forum. Gold and Stocks...Talk about a puzzle, wrapped in an enigma within a conundrum! Thank You, Poor Ol' Sol,simply me ViewYesterday's Discussion.
Permission to reprint is hereby granted where the USAGOLD name is cited along with our web address, mailing address and phone number. For electronic reproductions, citing the post heading and the http://www.usagold.com/cpmforum/ website address as the source is sufficient.