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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 7/2/2003 All times are U.S. Mountain Time (Yesterday's Discussion.) slingshot (7/2/03; 23:27:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 105361) Cometose Amen. slingshot (7/2/03; 23:10:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 105360) Future Unemployment Military bases will be closed under BRAC, which is a realignment of the armed forces for efficency. This should begin in 2005 but it is my understanding that Rumsfield will opt for sooner closures. Again the politicians will argue for the importance to keep the bases open within their districts. One of the considerations is the ablity of the displaced work force is to find work in related industry or to have an industry move to that location by using tax incentives. Will there be enough related industry to go round? And if so, will the tax incentives be enough to intice them to build new plants or relocate. Norfolk,Alameda,Pensacola, were three of six aviation depots for the miltary to be closed. The Army and Air Force will also take hits this time. The economic impact on towns or cities when loosing a major employer has to be great.So looking over the horizon more jobs will be lost.Is there plenty of pork? Yes. Just noting more to go on the BonePile in the future.Slingshot------------------------<> Dollar Bill (7/2/03; 23:02:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 105359) .,. Cometose, I know ALL of us are glad you are A-OK and may you always drive in safety. 21mabry (7/2/03; 22:40:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 105358) Silver Jim Puplava has a interesting silver article that he wrote on his website.Its on the front page upper left corner.21 bugs (7/2/03; 22:14:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 105357) Words from the trail? I know this goes much further, but with all the talk of late.. a good quote from FOA:"If I had a nickel for every time we thought the dollar was finished, I would have a bunch of nickels! Remember back in the early 80s or even further back into the 70s. All we heard was how the dollar was finished and going to crash and burn. Books about hyper inflation and the need for gold / swiss francs were all over the place."and other famous sayings:"This time it's different." Maybe it is, maybe not. Black Blade (7/2/03; 21:56:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 105356) Baxter to Cut 2,500 Jobs, Close Plants http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=580&ncid=580&e=3&u=/nm/20030702/bs_nm/health_baxter_outlook_dc Snippit:NEW YORK (Reuters) - Baxter International Inc. said on Wednesday it would cut 2,500 jobs and miss its 2003 earnings forecast, marking the third time in four months it reduced estimates as intense competition hobbled its blood therapy business. Black Blade: There go 2,500 blood soaked nonessential bones to the growing "Bone Pile". Tomorrow we get the weekly first time jobless claims data. So far we have had 19 consecutive weeks above the recessionary 400,000 level. Black Blade (7/2/03; 21:54:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 105355) AT&T Wireless to cut 1,000 jobs http://money.cnn.com/2003/07/02/technology/att_wireless.reut/index.htm Company will let about 3 percent of its work force go as it continues to trim costs.Snippit:NEW YORK (Reuters) - AT&T Wireless Services Inc. will shed around three percent of its work force this year, or about 1,000 jobs, as part of an ongoing cost-cutting program, according to a published report Wednesday. Black Blade: There go 1,000 nonessential "phone bones" to the "growing "Bone Pile". Black Blade (7/2/03; 21:44:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 105354) Evidence of market manipulation http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?guid=%7B573AFE82%2DD151%2D4252%2D9128%2DE14C21B0751D%7D&siteid=mktw Snippit:Is the stock market being manipulated? Is the Pope Catholic?The latest evidence of manipulation came Monday, the last day of the quarter. On that day, the majority of mutual funds beat the market. While that would seem to be a mathematical impossibility, researchers take it as evidence of a manipulative practice that is known in the mutual fund world as "marking the close." The SEC defines "marking the close," which is illegal, as "attempting to influence the closing price of a stock by executing purchase or sale orders at or near the close of the market." Right before the close, in other words, funds will place buy orders on stocks that they already own. That will cause the prices of their stocks to rise and thus make the performances of their funds look better than they otherwise would. Black Blade: This is nothing new to most of us of course. On a daily basis one can see massive buying of stock index futures right about 5 am est if the "fair value" is deeply negative which helps to keep the indices from falling off the charts, and in the last half hour to hour and a half of market trading hours the same thing occurs if the indices are negative or sharply lower. It is quite suspicious of course because much of this activity occurs on little if any news that could warrant such stock market moves. Some will attribute this to the actions of the President's Working Group on Financial Markets and others will attribute it to other market movers. Regardless, it is interesting how many times the activity seems to suddenly stop once a certain level is reached (for example 9100 on the DOW). A couple of days ago it could have been attributed to "window dressing" by funds (or as in the article "marking the close" being just a part of this), however, now we are in the Third Quarter and the excuse today is putting new retirement fund money to work. Illegal or not, the funds have nothing to worry about as the SEC is essentially a toothless tiger and will do nothing whatsoever. Meanwhile, the sheep are being set up for another shearing. Even the insiders are selling at a furious pace. misetich (7/2/03; 21:33:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 105353) U.S. Auto Sales Flat in June http://ad.doubleclick.net/adi/N2870.ny/B1157483.2;sz=1x1;ord=2003.07.03.03.28.35? Snip:DETROIT (Reuters) - Hefty cash rebates and interest-free loans failed to deliver a full-throttle increase in U.S. auto sales in June, as demand remained tepid in the face of the sluggish economy............That would be up from a rate of 16.1 million vehicles in May -- thanks to what analysts describe as an unprecedented blitz of consumer incentives -- but essentially flat versus 16.3 million in June last year.**********MisetichAnother bad sign for the US economy - Housing and the auto industry have been the last glimmer of hope. Is it sustainable? Chances are NOT!All On Board The Gold Bull Express misetich (7/2/03; 21:24:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 105352) California tops the list of broke US states http://personal.news.yahoo.com/us/news/ratings/getavgrate.html?locale=us&prop=news&rateid=afp/20030702/us_economy_states&type=T&cat=1519&ncid=1518 Snip:But most populous US state was just one of six that failed to pass a full spending plan ahead of the July 1 start of the new fiscal year, while at least 46 of the 50 states are lumbered with crippling budget deficits, experts said. "It's ironic that almost all states in the world's richest nation are broke, and California, the wealthiest among them, is in the worst shape of all," said University of Southern California politics expert Sherry Bebitch Jeffe. **********MisetichThe desired economic recovery pumped up by Treasury Snow is not evident at the state level, cities level, federal level and it will get worse as the shell games being played to hide the true deficits will be disclosed bit by bitAll On Board The Gold Bull Express Black Blade (7/2/03; 21:22:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 105351) Market Wrap Up – Puplava http://www.financialsense.com/Market/wrapup.htm Snippit:Although the stock market has done well recently, there is another bull market that is ongoing that few on Wall Street are talking about. It is the rally taking place in precious metals, foreign currencies, select commodities (energy being one of them), and especially in junior mining stocks. Euro-denominated debt, especially government bonds, are up between 10-15%. The HUI is up over 35% from its March low. Natural gas stocks are up between 20-30%. Small cap natural gas stocks and junior mining stocks are up even more. Several small cap juniors are up over 50-60% this year. The bull market in "things" still continues to roll on; it is just that nobody is talking about it. Black Blade: A good article tonight by Puplava. Just look at the gold chart and think back to about the end of 1996 when Robert Rubin and his band of hoods took up the cause of the "strong dollar policy" and then look at late 1999 where the spike denotes the Washington Agreement and the beginning of the end for producer hedging, and finally look at the beginning of 2001 when the rats left the burning ship as the tech bubble burst, an economic recession began, and the "strong dollar policy" slipped from their grasp. Now consumers are left holding the bag going deeper in debt to finance their lifestyles. It should get rather "interesting" soon enough. As always, get outta debt and stay outta debt, stash enough emergency cash for several months’ expenses, accumulate Gold and Silver portfolio insurance, and start a storage program of nonperishable food and basic necessities. goldquest (7/2/03; 20:03:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 105350) Test Hopefully, i'm baaaaaack! CoBra(too) (7/2/03; 19:24:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 105349) @ Nemo The only comment I'd have - this prognostication is still shy of any bear market trough, as valuations still seem too high! ... and as my latin is rusty, I seemingly recall Ovid's - Aurea Prima - ok, I'll spare you the rest of his bountiful hexameters, as you may know 'em better ... though, let's pray for a new golden era, correcting the all the wrongs of the fiat regime ... 'nuff said! cb2 R Powell (7/2/03; 19:12:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 105348) Borrow to gamble to make up for past loses http://www.traders-talk.com/site/show_article.asp?id=952 Snip: Incredibly, now that the state of Illinois has floated bonds to buy stocks for their pensions, we see that General Motors will now do the same. Borrowing money to buy stocks leverages your bet. By definition, buying stocks on margin. When an individual does it, we call it speculation. When a state or corporation does it, we call it..... investment?! Pity our poor tired and conservative analysis, but we do not see much difference. So, where are the assumed gains going to come from? Probably not stocks and possibly not at all. Long ago, we claimed that the pension story would gain in importance as time passed. Well, time is passing and the story is taking on more weight. If another bear market leg takes form, the story will become a pressing matter as corporations and public entities as well may finally come to the realization that the money will simply not be there for future pensioners. My thoughts: Wow! Maybe Belgian is right and total default is our fate. R Powell (7/2/03; 18:34:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 105347) Nemo // Cometose Nemo: thanks for the link. I passed it along to Adam Hamilton who has done some research and invested some monies based on the VIX index which is mentioned in the article you linked for us. I haven't studied it yet but will. This doesn't mean I'll understand it or be able to say anything intelligent about it but I will study it as I'm always trying to further my technical analysis knowledge. Thanks Cometose: Wow! I'm glad you are okay and still with us. Be careful, everyone! I know I want to live long enough to see how this whole thing plays out. I also want to see the POG and POS much higher, no matter what economic scenario evolves. As Cometose mentioned, the POS was active today but, as usual, the only explanations have been technical in nature, as in...the price of silver edged higher until triggering buy stops taking the price higher to...etc. At least that's all I saw. For those who always insist that the trading in silver is most always buying/selling between the commercials and the non-commercials, I agree. For those who insist that the commercials always win and the non-commercials (speculative funds) always lose money, I'd mention that as of 6/3/03 the COT reported the big commercials net short 42,323 contracts (futures only) and the non-commercials (large specs) were net long 20,748 contracts. As of 6/24/03 the numbers were.... Commercials still net short 28,010 contracts Non-commercials still net long 9,756 contracts So, if the POS is now in an uptrend, whose gaining and whose losing? Of course, these numbers don't include options or really indictate how much of the so-called commercial position is really a hedge against bought and held physical metal (not much I'd guess) but imho if the POS continues upward while the commercials are net short, how can so many well-know silver analysts claim that the commercials always take money away from the speculative guys? Just one man's opinion, as always, and a contrary opinion at that. Thoughts or silver news? Rich Goldilox (7/2/03; 18:02:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 105346) Buying Indulgences? http://asia.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=3020306 snippit:U.S. Suspends Military Aid to Nearly 50 Countries Tue July 1, 2003 11:22 AM ET WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States on Tuesday suspended military assistance to nearly 50 countries, including Colombia and six nations seeking NATO membership, because they have supported the International Criminal Court and failed to exempt Americans from possible prosecution.As the deadline passed for governments to sign exemption agreements or face the suspension of military aid, President Bush issued waivers for 22 countries.But the 22 countries did not include Colombia, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovakia and Slovenia.Goldilox:I seem to remember from historical studies that one of the reasons from becoming a citizen of Rome was to obtain immunity to prosecution from any allied (conquered) governments. Hence, the carrot was dangled to slaves who fought as gladiators. GoldCoaster (7/2/03; 17:53:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 105345) Nemo I cant comment on those predictions but would just like to say that I have asked Didier to apply the same computations to Gold.He said he will try and do that and assured me that putting some money into Gold is a very smart move indeed.Keep checking that site for Gold. Black Blade (7/2/03; 16:35:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 105344) Goldendome Yep, I was a bit tired and could not remember exactly. My mind went blank on that one. Treasure of Sierra Madre is one of my favorites too. In fact I recorded it. - Black Blade NEMO me impune lacessit (7/2/03; 16:21:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 105343) Q http://www.ess.ucla.edu/faculty/sornette/prediction/index.asp#prediction The above link is another prediction of coming heavy downturn of the stockmarkets. Has anyone seen it before...? ...and has anyone any comments. NEMO Goldendome (7/2/03; 15:52:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 105342) Black Blade--your #105322 Small, insignificant correction, that perhaps you already realize--the quote: "I'm shocked, shocked to learn that gambling is going on in this establishment," is actually attributable to Claude Raines character Louie (the police chief) from the movie, Casablanca, 1943. Being a Bogart fan myself, both movies are filled with wonderful lines, as is, Treasure of Sierra Madre in which Walter Houston plays the old miner, and has several memorable quotes about the value of gold, along with the other cast members, including again, Bogart.Best to you.-----Gdome Cometose (7/2/03; 15:34:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 105341) I'm getting warm/ WARM AND NOT DISTRACTED I was in a miracle a couple about an hour ago....Two weeks ago I had a dream about being in a congested place where lots of blue collar workers were coming and going ....( I fit right in ) ....then i was in at a Hospitalwith some celebrity type that was being released....because some type of overcoming had happened because of something he and I did together.... I thought about the dream some after it happened and it occured to me that these might be mine workers at the elevators or point of coming and going I saw in my dream.....Just an hour ago I was on my way from a small mining community to my home (70 miles ) and I began thinking about that dream 1000 yards from the driveway to the WEST ELK MINE....and I was contemplating the meaning of that dream when I came up on the entrance which I usually pass doing about 70 mph.....WHile I pondered the dream a car coming to the edge of the road caught my focus and since I was thinking about the dream I stayed focused on that car.....then the car nudged out a little .....then two or three things happened.....the driver of that car ( i was going 60 ) lost all sense of self preservation or became completely blind .....or I became invisible to him.....or something took over the controls of his brain , commandered the car.....and he drove right out in front of me,,, Anticipating that something spritiual might be taking place , I chose a point behind the car and drove my car behind him and back onto the road ....he went on without looking back or perhaps caring.......As I traveled up the pass....I contemplated what had just happened and estimated that the driver of the other car's life had been spared because of only the circumstances that were occupying my mind at the time.....I also recalled that a Police officer with the highway patrol had done the same type of thing to me 3 weeks ago outside Flagstaff on my way to Phoenix / I was also then in exceptionally dialed in on what eventuality of stupidity was presenting itself before me and unfolding before my very eyes in that situation as well.....As I held these thoughts and drew the relationship between the two incidents, It dawned on me ........that someone is trying to kill me ....SO I MUST BE GETTING WARM....as I PRESSED IN ON THAT THOUGHT ....I began reviewing somethings that I was engaged in at the time.....One of them was transporting a large check that was sent to the wrong adress that I had to retrieve for very important investment purposes.......GOLD .THE OTHER THING OF SIGNIFICANCE THAT I WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF TODAY IS the following that I think we all should take note of .........Hecla MINING and Coere D'alene are acting up ......especially Hecla......the last couple of days Hecla is up about 15%........FOr your further enjoyment , GO to FUTURE SOURCE and take a look at the monthly chart of SILVER.......THEN to get a more emphatic picture go to the SEPTEMBER MONTH /Contract and look at the MONTHLy CHART.....THERE is quite a screw / WOUND SPRING FORMATION in that SEPTEMBER CHART......Larry Williams says that sometimes there a significance in these well developed SPRING FORMATIONS>...........NOW I'm going to the BANK.....GOD : THANK YOU FOR SAVING ME THE TROUBLE OF AN ACCIDENT TODAY AND FOR PROTECTING MY UNDERINSURED VEHICLE (LIABILITY ONLY /I own my autos)from unknown damage and thank you for protecting me and my future and the future that I see for my kids from those in this WORLD that oppose themselves....YOUR KID CoBra(too) (7/2/03; 15:14:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 105340) Bad Day for EU ... and bad day for Austria!On the second day of Silvio Berlusconi's EU Presidency he already slipped up massively, getting mad at a German Journalist's question. He likened the poor guy to a gestapo KZ warden, conveniently forgetting Mussolini's role in the "3rd. Reich"! @ Belgian - wouldn't have thought that the rest of the EU's misgivings against this guy would surface as rapidly. Let's move on to a EU wide constitution ... and btw your politicians have been crucifying our conservative party by including Mr. Haider - and they've done it again! To their detriment, I presume ...Poor Austria, namely Salzburg was a contender to entertain the Winter Olympics in 2010. Vancouver, B.C. has won. I want to congratulate Vancouver, B.C.! Whistler-Blackome, feels like my second home and only second to the Arlberg - and it's got a lot more gold, which our guys and gals will bring back home - if some of your great athletes will allow for it.... Ah, shucks - let's just compete for the gold - cb2 Liberty Head (7/2/03; 14:14:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 105339) Re: msg#: 105327 The Invisable Hand I completely agree with your logical and reasoned assessment about restoring democracy, unfortunately our political future will continue to be more strongly determined by emotions than by rational thought and hard data. Unless some benevolent extra terrestrials take over our government, there will be no self-imposed limits on government spending, ever.There is a gold/silver lining to this dark cloud, though.The emotional thinkers will soon become passionate about gold and silver.Us nerds will have our revenge.Best wishes to all. TownCrier (7/2/03; 13:08:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 105338) INDIA: May imports surge on bullion, cotton http://www.business-standard.com/today/story.asp?Menu=19&story=17721 (excerpts:)July 3, 2003 -- Imports of gold, silver, raw and waste cotton and machinery and electrical goods have risen in May this year, pushing up the import bill for the month. The oil import bill, however, fell 9 per cent. Gold and silver imports rose 137 per cent to Rs 2,915 crore in May this year from Rs 1,200 crore in the same month last year. TownCrier (7/2/03; 12:12:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 105337) Proliferation of paper gold spreads to Korea http://biz.yahoo.com/rm/030702/minerals_korea_gold_1.html SEOUL, July 2 (Reuters) - South Korea, one of Asia's major gold importers, said on Wednesday it would allow gold-based bank accounts....The change, announced by the finance ministry and to take effect on Thursday, follows a decision by South Korea to suspend for the next two years consumption tax on gold trading for institutional investors and jewellery makers and traders. But private customers will still have to pay the 10 percent value added tax (VAT)....The Korea Futures Exchange said on Wednesday trading in gold had jumped to over 1,000 contracts since the tax change on July 1, from virtually nothing before.The finance ministry said in a statement it would allow gold banking, such as gold sales, gold loans and gold-based savings accounts, from Thursday.The accounts, which mirror those available in Japan, allow investors to take positions on gold price movements...----(see url)------The bigger they are, the harder they'll fall. Fortunately, there is no incentive here for the "little guy" (individual) to be drawn away from his tried-and-true old sources of metal in light of these new developments in institutional "near-gold".R. Goldilox (7/2/03; 11:27:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 105336) Bill Gates and the White House (from Radio) I heard an interesting quip on FoxSports radio last night. Supposedly, Bill went to the White House yesterday, but was refused entrance because he carried NO ID. Tom Ridge had to fetch him from the White House Guards. Maybe he needs an RFID? Then again, maybe we're about to get them courtesy of Microsoft. One might guess the Justice Department is "making amends" to Microsoft, given Al Gore's recent election to Apple's board. If the Demos are courting Silicon valey, what better weapon to join the PPT than Mr. Bill, who is not very well liked in Silly Clone Valley. USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc. (7/2/03; 11:20:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 105335) The only way you can beat this offer... is with a stick! http://www.usagold.com/gold-coins.html So save your strength -- call us today! cockerel1 (7/2/03; 10:12:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 105334) Debt! Please can anyone tell me if there is any government (country) that is not faced with a debt? (Maybe China?)cockerel1 steady (7/2/03; 08:58:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 105333) Radio Frequency Identification (RFID)? if u are concerned about them and dont want them use a moicrowave as that destroys them! microwaveable fiat money hahaha ! a nation of one (7/2/03; 08:14:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 105332) Gonlyold "...sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. :) I can't see the differentiation you're trying to establish. I don't think there is any. No doubt you have noticed, as does Glennh10, that yesterday's conspiracy theories are today's facts, and today's conspiracy theories are most likely tomorrow‘s facts."*** Of course you may be right. But in referring to Mister Greenspan, I was commenting on the actions of one man. My point was simply that the results of a grown man's actions tend to be consistent with what he intends. And that someone well qualified in a profession does not tend to get results that he doesn't want. I was saying that the destruction of our nation by economic means is intentional. Whether it involves a conspiracy is another question. Dollar Bill (7/2/03; 07:14:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 105330) ^-^ From a today link"Saudi Arabia also has a high level of domestic debt (around 100% of GDP) which it hopes to pay down."Another reason why the Sauds will not want to rock the financial boat of one of their biggest customers? The US.Anyone know a good anti bush forum somewhere so we can reccomend it to those who come here in the mistaken notion that it is a topic here? Topaz (7/2/03; 04:47:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 105329) Bonds, Gold and Dollar. http://www.futuresource.com/charts/multicharts.asp?symbols=TYXY%2CFVXY%2CDX1%21%2CGC1%21&period=D&varminutes=&bartype=line&bardensity=LOW&r=&go.x=12&go.y=10 Long bond hovering around 4.6%...doesn't appear to want to sail UP through this level as easily as it went down!! Gold/Dollar benign at present... Bond futures negative, $/Au may be lagging a little, we'll see. Black Blade (7/2/03; 04:20:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 105328) Keep gold in your portfolio if you want to sleep easy at night http://www.moneymanager.com.au/articles/2003/07/02/1056825429880.html Snippit:The past two years have proved not only that sharemarket busts follow booms as surely as night follows day, but also that reports of the death of gold were premature. The recent rise in the gold price to about $US352, after four years in a trough below $US300, has sparked renewed interest in the metal as a sound investment. While timing the peaks and troughs of market cycles is a mug's game, the sheer unpredictability of financial markets in recent years has underscored the importance of maintaining a diversified portfolio, and that still includes a smattering of gold. Research by actuary David Knox of PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC) found that a small amount of gold in a diversified portfolio acts as a buffer against extreme negative returns from traditional assets. This is because gold returns have little or no correlation to returns from shares, property, bonds or cash. The effect of gold is different depending on the period examined, but Knox found that the inclusion of gold in a portfolio has little impact on overall returns and significantly reduces volatility. In other words, investors reduce risk and sleep easy at night with little or no reduction in their financial rewards. Black Blade: Nothing like a little gold for portfolio insurance in this market. The recent economic data has not been encouraging and the long touted "economic recovery" is doubtful. The Invisible Hand (7/2/03; 02:46:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 105327) Democracy and Dictatorship RE: Liberty Head (7/2/03; 01:21:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 105324), On Democracy, RE: Goldendome msg#: 105319Democracy is the dictatorship of the majority. Granted, it is, as Hayek puts it in "Law, Legislation and Liberty", the only way to peacefully get rid of dictatorial majority.Only the rule of law, the supremacy of law, can make democracy bearable. But even the rule of law is only the supremacy of law in the sense of Gesetz or loi or lege, not in the sense of Recht or droit or diritto. Rechtsstaat, Etat de Droit still doesn't give supremacy to Recht and Droit but only to Gesetz and loi.The rise of the Welfare State after (the abolition of the gold standard (which abolition made unrestrained gvt spending possible)in) WW I was a milepost in the decline of the democratic ideal.Only the restoration of gold's monetary value (through the gold standard or the ECB's idea of freegold) can re-establish democracy. Sundeck (7/2/03; 02:33:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 105326) The buck stops – with gold http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33372 Snip:"...Either way, the consequences of the coming debt crash after the greatest credit expansion in history, delayed over decades of political expediency, banking manipulation and media camouflage, could be a disaster on a scale never before witnessed. It will give countries no choice but to buy gold, which, by then, will take over as the only game in town. In fact, this exodus of capital into the metals has already begun on a very careful, very measured basis. Nations are now starting to follow a pattern repeated throughout history, one that truly affirms gold as "history's currency." But time has not yet run out, and you would be wise to consider the dilemma of the swelling dollar. Because, if the foregoing has demonstrated anything at all, it's that the buck truly does stop with gold. ..."Sundeck: A brief summary of where we're at and why... Sundeck (7/2/03; 02:16:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 105325) American Airlines layoffs add to uncertainties for Kansas City base http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/business/6214025.htm Snip:"...Just three months ago, American persuaded its labor groups to take $1.8 billion in annual cost reductions as part of the company's plan to reduce expenses by $4 billion annually. Nevertheless, analysts say American must continue downsizing if it wants to survive current turmoil in the aviation industry...."Sundeck: It ain't all over yet for the airlines... Liberty Head (7/2/03; 01:21:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 105324) On Democracy, RE: Goldendome msg#: 105319 <the United States was now pushing democracy around the world like mobsters push "protection" on the neighborhood: Take it, or we'll burn your house down.>--------------------------------------------------A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. -- Alexander Tytler --------------------------------Looks to me like we are already in the early dictatorship stages.Oh well! Future dictators and their corupt cronys will likely accept gold as payment for services rendered, so get you some.Cheers Belgian (7/2/03; 01:19:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 105323) @ Gonlyold The EU-12 agreed to abandon VAT (value added taxes) on all "investment" Gold !!! Your investment Physical Gold in Possession AND your Physical Gold trade is NOT...noooooottttttt, TAXED !!!WHY HASN'T THIS POSITIVE FACT NEVER BEEN DISCUSSED FOR ONE SECOND OVERHERE ??? Fact AND Positive !It has been posted by our Giant, Randy Townie, as * EU GOLD DIRECTIVE * (LBMA) by Douglas Beadle, N.M Rothshild & Sons Limited...Owning Physical Gold Officially in Possession, in Euroland, is NOT a crime, illegal, anti euro or any other negative, possibly associated with it ! I want to emphasize that the euro is a Gold Friend and NOT burdened with 40 years of Gold confiscation. Not one single soul, overhere, would even suggest that *Gold* is to be or shall become ,"controlled".On the contrary, marking Goldreserves to the *** MARKET *** is an unbelievable strong signal that there is (remains) a very well defined, historical, *trust* into an outlined future for, at present, UNTAXED Physical Investment Gold (not jewelry) ! The 1% VAT didn't last for more than one year and was quickly abandonned when less Gold was accumulated for that reason !!!It should become clear by now that it is ONLY the dollar that is "hostile" towards Gold and NOT so for the rest of the world ! Isn't this of utmost significance for Gold's future, Sirs, Ladies ? Black Blade (7/2/03; 00:48:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 105322) slingshot After all, the one ounce Gold Eagle does state $50 dollars on it and as the US government determines what a dollar is - well, who are we to argue eh? I mean they wouldn't want us to lie about how much was earned right? So I would be mighty tempted to choose the face value of the gold coin over the FRN value for reporting purposes. I mean, the government wouldn't lie would they? Shocking, shocking I say! Or as in the movie "Maltese Falcon" where the police chief in the casino reponds "I am shocked that there is gambling here" when informed of the illegal activity while at the same time is handed his night's winnings. ;-)- Black Blade Belgian (7/2/03; 00:46:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 105321) Gold dinar..... Symbolises the deep frustration, of a major part of the muslim community (1,2 billion souls), towards "the" dollar as symbol par excellence of "american-ism". In a recent survey on many ME universities, young intellectuals express that strong perception of the dollar, "printed" into omnipotence, whilst they become more aware of the fact that they are the owners of the "real" oil value, getting scarce. Note that the Palestinians, recently got 1 Billion $ as a starter for the truce/armistice (?). This is adding to the general frustration that everything and everybody can and is been bought with the dollar. A similar sentiment was (is) to be found inside Russia.Chinese are much more pragmatic and not emotionally focused on the dollar as such. Don't know how Japan might react when (if) there come signs of dollar-demise ?Main frustration lies into the fact that it is impossible to *exit the dollar*, in separate factions. But all those who wish to exit the dollar-system, know it should be done through Gold...with the major help of Gold ! Gold War...>>> political wars.That's why FOA explains why and how the present (old) Gold-Market should have to implode first, that will set off a chain of events that will propel investors into using the euro as a world reserve, leave the dollar and ignite the down spiral of the dollar-system ($/IMF).The Gold dinar is an expression of wanting to have Gold traded as an asset and not as another currency. This must be backed officially by ECB/BIS policies (mark to market).The "impatient" gold dinar screams for help and broader (euro) support imo. How cautious does the oil for Gold has to proceed as for the timing of the paper-goldmarket implosion ??? Has the Iraq invasion delayed (complicated) the ongoing modus operandi ??? Who knows ? Gonlyold (7/2/03; 00:35:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 105320) Digitized Physical Gold A Nation of One (msg#: 105299) said, "What I did was merely point out that it makes much more sense to believe that the effects of an adult male's actions are intended, than to believe that they are the result of ignorance or lack of ability, particularly when the man is highly qualified in the area of his profession." I don't know ANO, but that in it self sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. :) I can't see the differentiation you're trying to establish. I don't think there is any. No doubt you have noticed, as does Glennh10, that yesterday's conspiracy theories are today's facts, and today's conspiracy theories are most likely tomorrow‘s facts.I agree with G. that the posters on this site do "pick the economic/monetary issues". But I'm not sure if they are picked "clean" with regards to abstract thinking. Much is said here, about the mechanizations of financing. And I truly want to learn and know more about these mechanizations. But I'm not sure if anyone can put on blinders, so to speak, and continue to keep economic/monetary issues separate from the effects of world events. The issue of GATA should be a wake up call that we need to look at the bigger picture: who controls what and why. The why of course would be the entry into "abstract thinking". When I read the posts, I can't help but wonder what the "the rest of the story" as Paul Harvey used to say, is. How have the mechanizations of the finance/monetary issues been molded by extraneous events? What really caused this and that? Where's this all going?For example, much has been discussed about gold being that entity which secures a value for your efforts. Fiat and paper-gold, secures a perceived value. The word freedom, I believe, has been associated with the ownership of physical gold. All this is well and good. I surely agree with owning gold. But I can't help but feel that this may not materialize given man's desire for, the greed for, power and control. No one here, I believe, will argue that commerce is now geared to and is becoming more geared to a digital currency: People want a digital currency to conduct electronic transactions for the sake of convenience. Bankers want a digital currency for the sake of power, a cashless society: you cannot buy or sell anything without going through a bank.At this point in time, physical gold has not been made into a digitized currency. It is still difficult, though not impossible, to track a gold eagle in your possession. And I believe that without the banks having the ease of ability to track and control gold in your possession, gold will never be allowed become the "security of value" nor will it be allowed to increase in value, especially to the lofty levels many hope for. (I have other reasons, but for now, this will suffice.) But the absence of digitized physical gold may change soon. Perhaps you have read of a device called Radio Frequency Identification (RFID)? It's a device, presently on the market, which is the size of a grain of sand and includes an antenna and can be activated by a nearby transmitter. Activation of the RFID triggers information, which can include the item number and name, manufacturer, purchaser, dates, and present location. Gillette Razor Company has begun placing and testing these RFID's in their products. [url]http://www.rfidjournal.com/article/articleview/258/1/1/[/url] Michelin Tire Company is in the process of embedding the RFID's into their tires. Benetton, the clothing manufacturer, attempted to do the same until negative publicity de-fused the issue. http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2133031,00.html Also see http://www.nocards.org/AutoID/overview.shtml So, how long do you think it will take for a law to be enacted whereby all gold pieces shall have embedded, within themselves, an RFID? (This, obviously, would be different than paper-gold.) Far Out? Some thought man would never fly. Once gold can be tracked to the individual person, then, I think, it will be allowed to find its value. I don't like this scenario, but for now, I don't see any other way. I would hope that gold would remain free, independent, and sovereign. A possible prevention to the digitizing of physical gold could be that the powers-that-be not want to expose the preceived thought that gold is limited in supply. (Which I don't necessarily agree with. Reasons later.) Once you start tagging all the above ground gold, you'll come close to finding out how much is out there, of course, you won't know how much can be found. How important is this I don't know, but it's a thoughtQuestion remains, can we prevent the digitizing of physical gold from happening? It's a question of control and privacy. Goldendome (07/02/03; 00:28:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 105319) Guns-Butter-and Debt Listened to some of a speech by the President given Tuesday. He addressed the growing Guerilla warfare now going on in Iraq. His voice (to me) was angry, bitter, but doggedly determined to stamp out the insurgent Iraq's and bestow democracy to the area. His tone, I thought, seemed scolding.Now I don't mean this to be a politic diatribe, so in a few more lines I'll get to the economic points.But the speech made me think of something Bill Bonner had written today. It said in effect, that the United States was now pushing democracy around the world like mobsters push "protection" on the neighborhood: Take it, or we'll burn your house down.By the way, isn't the word IRAQ contained within the word, QUAGMIRE? And isn't the presence in the first going to lead to the second?Historians suggest that the great inflation and stagflation of the 1970's was brought about by the "Guns and Butter" economy of the Viet Nam War era. Well, it's even worse today! Now we have "Guns, Butter, and Debt!"No good can come of these adventures paid for with more debt. Thanks to those on this website that keep us focused on Gold to protect our accumulated wealth and saved purchasing power, from the ravages that are now, continueing, and will worsen.Now, public presure is mounting for the U.S. to intercede in the Liberian problem. The administration is thus far resisting, but my gosh, is there no hell hole in the world so deep that someone won't want us to jump in?---------Gdome slingshot (07/02/03; 00:09:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 105318) Taxes. OOOPS, There it is. OOOPS, There it is. Black Blade Pardon me, for I am fixated on the problem of states that are unable to pass a budget. With the revenues down the choice is either to raise taxes or to cut state sponsored programs. They will raise or impose new taxes. But Nevada with an brothel tax. Puts it right up there with the beer tax, and cig tax. Oh! those sin taxes. What if they decided to use gold as a form of payment?Tenths, quarter and half ounce gold coins. Hold the gold as it appreciates and report to the IRS the Fiat value of the transaction and cash in the real value before a 1099a would have to be used. Is this not the same as cashing in at a bullion dealer? Following the Federal Guidelines.Excuse me, fellow Knights and Ladies for treading into a controversial subject. Must be the Sailor in me.Slingshot------------------:0) Goldilox (07/02/03; 00:03:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 105317) House of Saud = House of Cards http://www.financialsense.com snippit:With little exploration success since the 1960s and many of its fields showing signs of decline, Saudi Arabia is having an increasingly difficult time keeping production flat. According to energy investment banker Matt Simmons, head of Simmons and Company International, many of the country's aging fields are showing increased water cuts. Water cuts, water produced along with crude oil that is later separated, are a sure sign that a field is headed into decline. The country's largest field, Ghawar, now produces over 1 million barrels of water a day along with its nearly 4.5 million barrels of crude. With Ghawar accounting for 60% of the country's 7.5 million barrels per day of crude production, there is little hope Saudi Arabia can keep production flat if Ghawar continues to water out. Since Saudi Arabia cannot invest the billions of dollars needed to maintain current production and develop smaller fields, Ghawar has assured the world high oil prices are here to stay. Goldilox:Bill Powers excellent article on the state of the Saudi oil industry. ViewYesterday's Discussion.
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