Welcome to the USAGOLD Gold Discussion Archives. The archives of this gold discussion forum are a treasure trove of information to educate investors about protecting their wealth through portfolio diversification with private gold ownership. The discussion forum also covers the wider issues of the past, present, and future role of gold in international monetary policy and the dynamics of the modern gold markets...
The opinions posted by all guests are expressly their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the management or staff of USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals. The hosting of the public discussion shall therefore not be construed as an endorsement by USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals of any of the opinions posted here.
ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 7/2/2002 All times are U.S. Mountain Time (Yesterday's Discussion.) Black Blade (07/02/02; 23:33:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 79772) Davis weighs Calif auto exhaust curbs http://quotes.freerealtime.com/dl/frt/N?art=C2002070200183w9973&SA=Latest%20News Snippit:SACRAMENTO, Calif., Jul 02, 2002 (United Press International via COMTEX) -- California Gov. Gray Davis was poised Tuesday to sign the nation's first state legislation to limit emissions of greenhouse gases from automobiles and small trucks. While supporters say the proposal would not raise vehicle prices, industry opponents warned that the requirements would limit the supply of cars available in California and result in both higher dealer prices and shortages of popular models. "The end result, because of the design requirements, is going to be fewer cars available that people like to buy," Phil Isenberg, a spokesman for a coalition opposing the measure, told the Sacramento Bee.Black Blade: This should be interesting, however, if this is anything like previous environmental laws affecting the auto industry in the Peoples Republik, it will likely never be enforced except in those areas for taxation. Some of the finer points are:1. Raise taxes on gasoline by $0.50 a gallon2. Taxing the miles you drive by two cents a gallon3. Raising taxes on SUVs and minivans by $3,5004. Reduce the speed limit to 55 miles per hour again; and5. Require everybody to have a "tire check" certification Sounds fun. Mr Gresham (07/02/02; 22:43:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 79771) USAGOLD Michael: A class act, through and through. Quality -- worthy of gold itself. I suppose hanging around with it throughout a working career rubs off on one?Like attracts like, so congratulations on attracting another catalogue of excellence in a 'Net community. Horatio (07/02/02; 22:38:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 79770) Pm sites Siochain http://www.cairns.net.au/~sharefin/Markets/Master.htm You will find links to more sites than you can view in a month at this location......Good Luck Nomad (07/02/02; 22:32:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 79769) Something to THINK about ... If it is true that the US dollar has dropped roughly 15 percent in the last few months, then at a minimum the price of gold should have risen by a proportionate amount ...i.e. Gold at $ 312 * 0.85 (roughly) = a price (in the early part of the year) of : $$$ 265 !!! $$$Amazing !This means that in fact, the real price of gold is near it's low point EVER !Anybody who can explain why my logic is wrong ??? Troy Boy (07/02/02; 22:17:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 79768) Congratulations to all of the winners! Truly a interesting place in time for us all to be able to network with such ease and hope. Troy Boy (07/02/02; 22:10:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 79767) many JJ # 79738 Maybe someone will find a way to help us spend our gold secretly or outside of the current system. Aristotle #79749 Funny you mention paper gold vs in the hand gold. I have a friend who was trying to take physical delivery of several hundred ounces (800) from the Chicago commodity exchange. The gold was purchased in a future trade paid for in May for June 2 delivery. The cash was paid. The exchange about fell over from what he said. No one had tried to take physical delivery from the exchange for over ten years. They still have not delivered and are balking at giving the money back now. Even though there was quite a bit of diligence done in the initial purchase and the delivery agreement. This tells us all something. There is a tight control on actual physical being removed from the cablas hands.Maybe I can forward him to Centennial to work a deal with them?YGM, the last time I was here you were leaving, for good. I am glad to see you made it back. Nomad (07/02/02; 22:06:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 79766) USAGOLD What can I say ... thank you very much. (and I had to read it three times to make sure my name was really there :)I guess I would like to say two things, first that this is the BEST site on the Internet for gaining understanding of the current events happening in the crazy world around us.I read each and every post here, and I have learned and will continue to learn so much about the world throught the tremendous variety and the prodigious output (BB !! :) of the posters here. I want to thank those who post things I agree with because it helps me firm my world view and for those who post things I disagree with because it helps me both understand the opposition and the thinking of those on the other side, and occassionally helps me rethink my position.Most of all I want to thank our host for setting up and policing such an extraordinary place.The second thing I want to say is I feel a bit bad for winning because I knew before submitting, that mine was an 'out-of-bounds' post and by all rights should not be considered for the contest ... but I did it anyways because I believe (and still believe) that the points contained therein were critical in understanding the dark vision of the future.I hope that the future is a nice, shiny Bright GOLD one for everyone of us smart and wise enough to visit here :)Nomad Gandalf the White (07/02/02; 22:05:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 79765) WOWSERS !!!!! SEVEN Contest WINNERS !!! Congratulations to all the WINNERS and thanks to all that entered !! Will the SEVEN WINNERS please confirm their Snailmail address to Jill at the castle by sending an email to jill@usagold.com so that the PRECIOUS METAL awards may be sent to the correct location. Thanks all!!!!!<;-) USAGOLD (07/02/02; 21:10:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 79764) In the Darkness of Night. . .No Light Graces This Hallowed Hall Gandalf. . . .Gandalf . . .Where are we? The Great Hall? Why the complete, all-consuming, inexorable Darkness? What is that you say. . .you believe the Darkness appropriate? Appropriate? Oh yes. . .yes. . .The Dark Vision Contest. I get it. Yes, I understand. . . At least we don't know have to endure those infernal trumpets. . . Oh. . .you're saving the trumpets for later. Please! Give me plenty of warning. You know what we decided in that meeting on the subject of trumpets and drums. . . .Nevermore. . .that's what we decided. . .Nevermore!! But perhaps we have gone too far, my wizardrous friend. I am not a friend of Darkness, and doesn't Gold represent Light -- the Sun? So please, Gandalf . . .Can you shed a little light on the situation? We can't be stumbling around in the Dark trying to find the winners. Please, do whatever it is you do. Snap your fingers. Blink your eyes twice. Wave that talented wand of yours. Whatever it takes. . . . . Ah, there we go. Thank you, my Dionysian friend. . . . All the candles lit. Just like that. One of these days, you are going to have to teach me that. . . . .What's that? Trade secret. Oh my. . . .What would we do without you. . .O noble and Gentle Wizard. . . .Now I can see All the assembled Table members. About this Dark Vision Contest, and all this heavy gold. . . . .What a Contest it was!! The very best by far, so much so, that our Mighty TownCrier, has established a special place in the Hall of Fame so that the posts can be read into perpetuity -- or as long as these Castle walls stand. These are visions so Dark that TC wrote this in a private e-mail: "Have you ever read any body of work more depressing in your life? Three assistant judges have already flung themselves from the roof of the Tower in fits of despair and dark hopelessness..." Move Over, Bernard Connolly. . . . .So which will be placed at the very top and be awarded the gold? I wish we had the Midas Touch. . .if so 25 would get the gold. . . but we must boil it down to Two. . . .The Brazilian 20,000 Reis goes to Aureo Speedwagon. An Orwellian vision to be sure. We are not investors who can separate gold from family and the rest of our lives. It all comes together for us. 1984 Revisited. One wonders what ASW would have done given a greater stage. . . . . We look forward to your future comments, Aureo. You deserve and shall receive the most valued prize. . . . . . . ..The French Angel goes to Waverider for the sheer plausibility of the message. The world, my friend, belongs to those who learn to live it. Own the gold; make the rules. And. . . .make your Beautiful Escape 'midst the Dophins. . . A very close second. . . . . . . .We will award not one but five silvers for some extraordinary Entries________Robot Guy. . . .A Dark Vision as the Contest demanded. Yea, its Dark enough for me, RG._______Miner 49er. . . .A poet too. And not just a simple rhyme. What a pleasant surprise._______Bounded Spirit. . . .That Yeats quote needs to be in the Hall. . .And a great entry leading into it. So appropriate for what's going on now in the markets and in our culture -- as it overlaps in economies around the world. "Turning and turning in the widening gyre The falcon cannot hear the falconer; Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world, The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity." A Dark Vision to be sure. . . . . Thanks for reminding us all of this famous Yeats description. . . ._______GuyGold. . . .For its practicality, both in vision and application of a strategy most of us could live by. Good Entry. Good message. Good advice.______Nomad . . . . Because The Fourth Turning is an important work that all USAGOLDers should read in the Dark Vision context. We maylimited control over where this economy is going, but gold at least provides a means for us to exert some control over our personal (and family) futures. Normally, we don't award prizes for quotes from third-party works, but the Fourth Turning is very salient in the context of the Dark Vision and something we highly recommend for our deep thinkers. Like it or not, cyclicality over-rules the best laid plans of mice and men.So there it is. . . I'm sure some will agree with the selections and some disagree, but this is how the Castle Review Panel saw it. I would like to thank all who participated and invite all our new posters to fully participate on an on-going basis here at the Table Round. We enjoy and look forward your company!!Congratulations to the winners. We'll do it again soon.- - - - - -And now. . . .Marie, gather up the keys. Gandalf, grab a torch (not that you need one!).To the Vaults. We have prizes to send.Now we can have the trumpets. Yes, the drums. I can tolerate it for a shortwhile. . . .Briefly, Gandalf. Briefly, please. My ears. . . . . .Do we have enough Silver, Marie? We do? Good. . . . Good. . . . .Voices fade.Trumpets rise.Drums thunder.The Table cheers the winners.Oh my. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Is all this fanfare necessary??Nevermore, I say. Nevermore. Mr Gresham (07/02/02; 21:09:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 79763) YGM Funny (actually not), I was thinking today of other places where I've read about the toll of recession and unemployment on families -- a measurable increase in divorce, alcoholism, child abuse, suicide -- actual numbers per point increase in the unemployment rate. More of that ahead of us, I guess.Being self-employed almost my whole life, I look on this from the abstract viewpoint, but then, many of us families have only been a few bumps away from these challenges anyway, for many years. It's just employees who have that sense of security, which is suddenly yanked away.I wish there was some advice I could give them -- especially the parents -- to make things go easier for them and their children. It just seems like a set up for misery, as these layoffs get programmed in by the tens of thousands.I've long thought the corporations should be mostly employee-owned, after a certain entrepreneurial period has passed (actually one of Microsoft's early strengths), and the accounting scandals reinforce that idea. Of course, the employees are usually then handed over only the ruined husk of what once was (United Airlines) once the hotshots have milked it.Anyway, just the ramblings of a Lilliputian Lunatic... Bulldog (07/02/02; 21:05:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 79762) Paper Av post #79751 I've had the same feeling for the past while. Glad you posted your thoughts because I was getting a bit paranoid. YGM (07/02/02; 20:59:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 79761) Here's a Posting from a General Electric Message Board.... Check out the attitude of a Non Gold, Mainstream Message Board..... **BTW...there message board could be another GE we know as any post against the Co. is deleted...YGM.Posting:From: profit4ALLme3 (Original Message) Sent: 7/2/2002 10:37 AM YEP. The mgrs just continue to delete my warnings. FOR 6 months now I have called for DOW below 9000 and NAZ 1000. TODAY the DOW drops below 9K and the NAZ continues its plunge to 1000. Bubbles are bursting all around us. AND the last bubble to burst is still inflating. Went out with a relative this past weekend to buy her a new house. Nice uncle I am spending my short profits on a neice. But I digress. FACT is we put in a bid on the place and ALREADY 6 bidders have beat our offer and 3 of them NEVER even saw the place. Sound familar? Sounds like 1999 NAZDAQ and S&P to me. Oh, remember what happened there. I know you do. Now what will happen to the market when the REAL ESTATE bibble DOES burst? We KNOW it will. Its going to happen sooner or later. What if it happens beginning in Q3? Right around the time all are expecting a economic recovery and arnings recovery. What if no recovery comes and the Real Estate BUBBLE begins to deflate? Can you say RECESSION? How bout DEPRESSION? Japan is a great example to see what will happen to the US financial markets. Foreign money will FLY out of this market. The dollar will PLUNGE and head toward DEVALUATION. can you believe that? Imagine the US having to DEVALUE it currency. What devistation. ARMEGEDDON. Yep. Just what I said would happen. ARMEGEDDON. AND I have not even mentioned the escalating fraud disciveries in corp america AND the impending terrorist attacks. Big question is will the US stock markets even be open when all of these events come together to form the PERFECT STORM! ANYONE who has money in STOCKS or CORP BONDS is going to lose EVEY single DIME! YGM (07/02/02; 20:47:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 79760) Sad reality for Xerox employee of 30 yrs....... From: Debby J Sent: 6/30/2002 7:09 PM I have been with Xerox for 13 years as a sales rep, sales manager and 17 years as a Agent. I just left the program in May becasue of distrust and the fact that I believe that the end is in sight for Xerox as we know it. I also quit because the Central Region Vice President told me to buy him a golf club if I wanted to keep my agency. These are the ones who need to go. The entire board should go straight to jail and be made to give all monies back that they made while on the board. That ass--le alaire should be hung as well as clinton's two friends on the board. I have 1000 shares of stock with an average price of $54 which isn't worth the paper it is written on. I will never see that money and the ass--les on the board should pay it back. Black Blade (07/02/02; 20:20:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 79759) More financial revisions expected http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/183/business/More_financial_revisions_expected+.shtml Snippit:NEW YORK - When US companies release second-quarter results this month, their accounting practices may get more attention than the numbers they produce. Investors and analysts are bracing for more revisions to financial reports following last week's multibillion-dollar restatements at WorldCom Inc. and Xerox Corp. and earlier ones at companies such as Enron Corp. and Kmart Corp.''There will be a continuing stream of these blowups,'' said Howard Schilit, president of the Center for Financial Research and Analysis Inc., an independent research firm in Rockville, Md. They represent the flip side of the 1990s bull market for stocks, ''where the most egregious behavior was rewarded,'' he said. The most likely candidates for accounting revisions are companies such as Cisco Systems Inc. that grew with the help of acquisitions. AOL Time Warner Inc., once faulted for accounting similar to WorldCom's, and 3M Co., which has taken charges for seven quarters in a row, also deserve scrutiny, he said.International Business Machines Corp. tops the list of Bill Fleckenstein, president of Fleckenstein Capital Inc., who has bet against the company by selling borrowed shares. Other candidates, he said, might include Mirant Corp., Omnicom Group Inc., Oracle Corp., and Qwest Communications International Inc. Black Blade: There's a plethora of accounting scandals and corporate malfeasance. We are just interesting that time of season again – yep "earnings season". This is the "fish or cut bait" period too. Analysts have been saying that we will see an improvement this last quarter (and the quarter before that, and the one before that, and the one….). It will very likely get very "entertaining" over the next couple of weeks. We do live in "Interesting Times".BTW, another accounting scandal - the one at General Electric" appears to have escaped the scrutiny of Wall Street. Maybe that has to do with their ownership of CNBC. Hmmm... mikal (07/02/02; 20:04:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 79758) @Jimbo How quickly gold moved from $275 to today's range. And how confidently. Tiny POG movements like today are not market typical. Were the "cabal" Central Bankers, and THEIR financiers, be "in control" as you put it, the volatility would fluctuate according to their dictates like a rigged roller coaster, planning directions for futures, options, and derivatives of their casino. Historically speaking, the paper market would have ceased to exist. A "damned good job of controlling the POG"? Hardly. YGM (07/02/02; 20:03:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 79757) Sector.... How true, How true......."And so very close I believe also to the "Question" being asked by Congress, You said....The Fed itself is one audit question away from the same kind of blow-up. A question like, "How much gold has the US loaned?"... "To whom?"... "Why?".**By The Lord Harry I'd give much to see Greenie turn Green on that day...Even he couldn't double speak his way around that one....YGMPS: Funny what happened to that fellow who volunteered to petition the Gov & Fed for an Audit of Ft Knox....Never seen or heard from here since...Probably an exchange prisioner in a Russian Gulag by now..... Black Blade (07/02/02; 19:53:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 79756) New York Heat Wave Boosts Electricity Prices to 11-Month High http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?ptitle=Energy%20News&s1=blk&tp=ad_topright_energy&refer=topfin&T=markets_bfgcgi_content99.ht&s2=ad_right1_all&bt=ad_position1_energy&tag=energy&middle=ad_frame2_energy&s=APSHfhRVdTmV3IFlv Snippit:New York, July 2 (Bloomberg) -- Soaring temperatures in the New York City area drove electricity prices to an 11-month high and caused a run on air conditioners and fans at Home Depot Inc. stores. Temperatures were forecast to reach 95 degrees Fahrenheit (35 Celsius) today and 98 degrees tomorrow and Thursday, or 12 degrees higher than normal. A Home Depot in the New York borough of Queens ran out of air conditioners last night and had fewer than 20 electric fans left, assistant manager Mike Matthews said. ``People are telling me they can't find a/c's anywhere around here,'' Matthews said. The store normally carries about 100 air conditioners. Weather in the region is ``hotter than it's been so far this year,'' forcing some utilities to buy electricity to meet peak demand, said Mike Dean, who trades New York electricity for Calpine Corp. in Houston. ``We should peak even higher than that tomorrow,'' Klapp said. The system operator doesn't expect any blackouts and won't make big users reduce electricity consumption, he said. The Independence Day holiday on July 4 ``will help us out'' by reducing demand from downtown offices during the hottest period forecast by meteorologists, Klapp said. Black Blade: A few more hot spells like these and the draw down of NG supply could accelerate into the winter season. The higher energy costs cannot be good for the "recovering economy". And this is just the beginning of summer. YGM (07/02/02; 19:53:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 79755) Jimbo....... http://www.gata.org I see you as a very cautious and nervous convert to Gold, and I can respect where you come from with your questions from time to time....Now to answer you I could take weeks giving you all the info gleaned already by most who post here but!...Instead I'll give you the best I can for your own D.D. (education if you will as you are new and missed years of primer courses :>}) Go to the link and read 'GDBC Report' top left bar....Then read some of the essays on the 'Essay Bar'....Then I'd highly recommend the 'Thoughts of Another' at the top of USA Page and also the "Hall of Fame" posts.....Jimbo the fact that market decline (crash) is very iminent and paper fiat is trashing, Gold interest is in a completely new awareness cycle and the Banks have lent out all their Gold (quite likely) to Hedge Funds who are soon to be insolvent and unable to repay, then we have the Derivatives mess like never in the history of financial markets, these things and more are the reasons why we Goldbugs are soooo confident that it will come to pass that Gold goes ballistic...Do you not know or understand the ramifications of having in the vicinity of 14,000 Tonnes of Gold already sold in the marketplace and it's not even above ground yet? The world - wide production runs about 2500 T p/yr only.....Don't just rely on our excuberance and day to day posts here. Do yourself a favor and read, read read....Then soon enough you too will be able to stay calm with your well chosen path...IMHO......Stick with it Buddy you'll get to be a believer with enough knowledge and understanding. We're all learning more daily, and we should never think we know enough.....I still read and seek more as time goes by, but I don't worry anymore about the end result for my chosen path......The Cabal and the Gangster/Banksters cannot undo 4000+ years of Gold history, even if they play God with the NWO etc......Regards,...YGM sector (07/02/02; 19:33:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 79754) @Jimbo: What Forced the Cabal's Hand in the 70's... ...Viet Nam's bills and the "Great Society" See...Congress was on a spending tear and just HAD to have a war AND a "Great Society" to boot. So they began to print and print until the World found out about the printing part.It was the "Finding out" that caused France to redeem FRNs for metal until Treasury cried uncle [After half had been shipped away] and then devalued the dollar by 10X.It will be the "Finding out" process [Which is the mechanism of market price discovery] that has propelled and will propel a shift in $USD valuation with gold. The cabal has loaned and spent 26,000 tonnes of their vaulted gold to hold pog down. They are where Enron was a little before the S&P audit questions that blew things apart.The Fed itself is one audit question away from the same kind of blow-up. A question like, "How much gold has the US loaned?"... "To whom?"... "Why?".Astonishingly, it was former DC mayor, Merion Berry, who last week said on the Hill to Administration officials regarding the debt ceiling,"If we're doing all that great, why are we broke?"That tiny exchange is still reverberating across oceans and around the world. The US is broke. The US is broke.Japan is broke too AND the government will remove the rest of deposit insurance next April. If you think about it, the West is broke.Each time you need a pick-me-up, repeat that phrase. Paper Avalanche (07/02/02; 19:30:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 79753) Psyops - Addendum Previous post will be reposted verbatim (less the double "the") as neccessary to counterbalance what has been posited in the post itself, and as allowed by our fine host at CPM. Names may be replaced as new personae are floated to get traction and serve as a diversion.We are in the the eye of one of the most turbulent financial storms in three generations. Only physical gold ownership will protect the savings, wealth and future of those who elect to enlighten themselves to the erudite forebodings of those on the golden trail who have seen what lies ahead. To know what the future portends, study the past.PA Rockgrabber (07/02/02; 19:29:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 79752) Jimbo Jimbo asks, what will it take to turn back the cabal and propell gold to 1000+? I believe once the real cabal steps in and crushes this little paper playing cabal, the game will be on. The real players are just letting the little guy carry the ball for a bit. The real gold advocates have been playing this game with the paper pushers for there own reason. I must immagine, its been and is being for the purpose of accumulating massive amounts of physical gold, and drying up the supply, while driving others off a cliff(the hole current system). When the game is up you will know it. Untill then like Aristotle just said in a previous post. Paper gold, he would sell it down the river. Why not, it is nothing but a paper promise, that does not intend to be kept. My best advise is to hike our gold trail here at USA Gold. That is a hike worth taking again and again. He will take you to the top of the mountain for you to see with your own eyes. Paper Avalanche (07/02/02; 19:17:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 79751) Psyops If I were the cabal and wanted to attempt to slow the migration of paper believers from becoming physical believers, I would find the most influential web sites visited by the the most lurkers and plant the seeds of doubt by constructing personae who seem to appear as hapless uninformed lurkers who simply were raising questions about the validity of strongly held positions and facts presented by said message board. I would make said person appear to innocently question the happenings of the day or week in such a way as to undermine the underlying premise of the boards intent, specifically to inform people of the beneifts of physical gold ownership. I would continually have the hapless "newbie" pose contiunal questions so as to sew the seeds of doubt in the minds of anyone visiting the forum for the first time so that they revert to what has been so deeply mentally engrained in them by the nice people on TV. I would name my personae Jimbo.Paper Avalanche sector (07/02/02; 19:10:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 79750) GATA's Bill Murphy Has It Right Again HUI Selloff due to a mutual fund changing... ...direction away from PMs under new "Management". And to sales of the heavy hedger equities. Let's see how long the new management lasts in a plunging market. Recall that for each market move downward, the pension funds of GM and GE move further underwater and change reported gains into billions of dollars of corporate losses.About a year ago, FINOVA filed BK. It was the lead plane in the lead squadron of an air force of planes whose credit fuel tanks were running on empty. The big boys of that air force are about to fall. Here comes Xerox.BTW, lots of experts see really high inflation breaking out in combination with pockets of deflation [Housing foreclosures]. This is called stagflation...a word not speakable on CNBC.Oh...almost forgot...we will know the "Bottom" when CNBC is replaced with cooking, gardening and "This Old House" look-alike shows. Aristotle (07/02/02; 19:00:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 79749) Eyeing the specific markets that determine prices All things considered, like anyone else whose confidence gets rocked, if it suddenly dawned on me that the "Gold" I "owned" was really nothing more solid than a paper promise, I'd sell it down the river.Given the outstanding (open interest) long positions in Comex contracts, is it really so hard to understand how or why the quoted price for Gold in the U.S. -- which is still derived largely on this market in "near Gold" -- might be seen to sell off at troubled times like these, counter to a very superficial intuition? Once you see beneath the surface, it all makes more sense.Paper Gold? Yep... I'd sell it.Real Gold. Get you some. --- Aristotle Jimbo (07/02/02; 18:56:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 79748) @YGM re. $1000 gold I like your optimism, especially about gold hitting $1000 by October 1, 2002. You probably know a lot more than I do about the factors that will bring about gold's dramatic climb. I sincerely hope you're right. However, I look at what the cabal has done to subdue the price of gold for the past 20 years and I wonder if their negative influence will be overcome (sooner than later)? I mean, they're doing a damn effective job of controlling the POG right now. And they apparently have the "staying power" to exert their influence for at least a few more years. I ask you and others on this forum, what will it take to turn back the cabal and propel gold to $1000? Can anyone remember what forced the cabal's hand back in 1979-80? TownCrier (07/02/02; 18:38:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 79747) Whither the Dow? http://www.usagold.com/goldenchalkboard/gc_stockbubble.html Nasdaq now at 1357. Do you remember the good ol' days of 5,000?The Dow Industrial Index is hanging tough at 9,000, down from "only" 12,000. Is there room yet to fall?The URL above suggests so, and points to an oldie but a goodie. (And since the time of that graph, the Nasdaq has suffered additional losses.)R. JCTex (07/02/02; 17:54:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 79746) JJ (07/02/02; 16:57:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 79738) The fact that a "black market" would exist would indicate to me that the public was ignoring anything the government endorsed or demanded. That is precisely where black markets are bred and given life. The better question might be, "which will have more black market value? a piece of gold, or a piece of paper that requires wheel barrows to take home a half days wage in?"Two things that the government might want to avoid asking for [unless they just want to p%$# people off a little more] is gold, and guns. Both will probably get them millions of "Hawaiian Peace Signs" and/or a rebellion they don't want or need. YGM (07/02/02; 17:50:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 79745) Will Xerox go down..Will it Dwarf WorldCom & Enron..Will the Dow Plummet if Xerox Falls? If Your Answer is "Yes"...... To the above questions then you may have he answer as to why the 'Extra' concerted effort the last few days to crush Gold (not very successful either, I might add) The PPT/ESF and the Gold Cabal are aware of Xerox problems you can be sure...Are they now taking pre-emptive action before the news is out?...Personaly I think they are. They know as we know the Train's coming down the tunnel full bore and they are desparate, as they should be....Dow 6000, Duck 500, Gold $1,000.00 by Octtober 1/02??? Xerox in the "Bone Pile"...YGM YGM (07/02/02; 17:34:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 79744) I Imagine The Short Sellers Read these Boards.......Looks like "Easy Money" http://moneycentral.msn.com/community/message/board.asp?Symbol=XRX From: Justiceman (Original Message) Sent: 6/28/2002 8:35 AM Who do you have faith in NOW!!!! Overstatement of earnings may run as higher than $6 Billion. Justice..... First Previous 2-9 of 9 Next Last Reply Recommend (0 recommendations so far) Message 2 of 9 in Discussion From: Clawstorm Sent: 6/28/2002 8:48 AM I'm starting to wonder if the rumors of selling Services off to PBI is more than a rumor. Reply Recommend (0 recommendations so far) Message 3 of 9 in Discussion From: bearboy Sent: 6/28/2002 8:52 AM Six billion dollars is a lot of zeros to overlook by accident. How deep is the corruption at Xerox; how many more lies are there? Does this mean they have to restate their restatments? Reply Recommend (0 recommendations so far) Message 4 of 9 in Discussion From: blaemers Sent: 6/28/2002 9:23 AM Please Anne, make these embarrassments stop... Reply Recommend (0 recommendations so far) Message 5 of 9 in Discussion From: exxrxman Sent: 6/28/2002 9:39 AM It is time for new blood in Xerox... it is time for Anne and the BOD to GO!!! Reply Recommend (0 recommendations so far) Message 6 of 9 in Discussion From: Clawstorm Sent: 6/28/2002 10:00 AM I'd rather see the BOD stay and be accountable for the mess instead of getting off with whatever golden parachute they have sown into their benefits package. Reply Recommend (0 recommendations so far) Message 7 of 9 in Discussion From: dsf Sent: 6/28/2002 11:03 AM I agree with Claw while new blood would be nice, the current board needs to stay and face the jury. Reply Recommend (0 recommendations so far) Message 8 of 9 in Discussion From: astoria Sent: 6/28/2002 12:46 PM Help me folks, I don't quite understand the WSJ "news". Is the "finding" of 1.9 Billion in un-reported new info or is this simply the re-statement of earnings that the SEC ordered? Interesting is the reported amounts of $3 Billion by SEC, and up to $6 Billion by WSJ yet the CooperLybrand et al, reports $1.9 Billion. Oh heck . . . what's a few hundred million $$ among friends! Two things you have to ask - Which employees will end up trusting this company (sales -service -admin)and Which potential stockholders will stick around? Reply Recommend (0 recommendations so far) Message 9 of 9 in Discussion From: odd body Sent: 6/28/2002 2:23 PM Astoria, to clarify, the re-statement of result was demanded by the SEC back in April. It took until today to get the figures together. The re-statement shows that our total revenues for 1997-2001 are $1.9 billion LESS than previously stated. This $1.9 billion wasn't "lost" or "made up" it will simply now be reported as part of future earnings rather than past earnings. The figures of $6.4 and $5.1 refer to the portion of our total revenue that this re-statement effects, which was previously thought to be only $3 billion. As both a stockholder and employee I'm currently "nervous" and my trust levels are "low". I will be "sticking around" until Q2 results on 25th July but if some good news isn't reported then I'll sell my stock. *****Well Mr/Mrs Oddbody..For your sake I hope Xerox isn't down to 6 Cents! by the 25th.......YGM misetich (07/02/02; 17:32:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 79743) Searching for "US economic recovery" - Not in Tech Capital Spending http://www1.firstcall.com/commentary/market/index.shtml?commentary|market Snip:An emerging problem for the second half, especially apparent in the last 2 weeks, has been an acceleration in the downward revisions to 3Q02 estimates. Since April 1, the 3Q02 S&P 500 estimates have been cut 5 percentage points from 22 to 17%. Although 3Q02 estimates for energy were raised by a similar 9% as in 2Q02, analysts have only raised 3Q02 consumer cyclicals by 5 percentage points. Meanwhile, technology estimates were cut by 15 percentage points and capital goods and communications were cut by 11 percentage points each. These deep cuts in the capital spending related sectors so far ahead of the 3Q02 reporting period are ominous.MisetichDeep Cuts in Capital spending is certainly not a good signDouble dip recession anyone?Got gold? YGM (07/02/02; 17:26:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 79742) Enlightning Discussions @ Xerox Employee Chat Group http://moneycentral.msn.com/community/message/board.asp?Symbol=XRX From: odd body (Original Message) Sent: 6/28/2002 2:44 PM All the momentum from the positive Q4 results has gone, our debt has been further downgraded with at least one more downgrade to come from Fitch, and our accounts are still in question. I read one analyst saying "This is a company that simply doesn't work". The only positive so far is the credit revolver. So, time to throw in the towel? I for one intend to take a deep breath, sharpen my resolve and continue to try even harder to turn this company around. I might not keep hold of my stock, I have to be realistic about Xerox, but that won't stop me from trying everthing (legal!) in my power to keep this ship sailing. Always go down fighting I say. You never know, something good could be just around the corner. Who's with me? First Previous 2-8 of 8 Next Last Reply Recommend (0 recommendations so far) Message 2 of 8 in Discussion From: flyovermidwest Sent: 6/28/2002 3:17 PM Get the boots on folks! This is to much B.S. to step around. Hey Odd body, I salute you for going down with the ship, along with the rest of the rats. Reply Recommend (0 recommendations so far) Message 3 of 8 in Discussion From: bearboy Sent: 7/1/2002 9:16 AM OddBod, you're not willing to risk your money so you're taking your stock off the table but yet you're willling to continue to work for the company that admittedly "cheated" its shareholders, provided HUGE severance packages to disgraced former CEO's (disgrace me!), continued to borrow money during the greatest boom era known to man to the point they had to refinance, yadda, yadda, yadda. Your allegiance is misguided my friend. Reply Recommend (0 recommendations so far) Message 4 of 8 in Discussion From: odd body Sent: 7/1/2002 3:13 PM bearboy, I'm waiting until July 25th to make a decision on my stock. I see you're quick enough to jump on txcowgirl's comment (in another thread) that "it wasn't fraud" yet you claim Xerox has admittedly "cheated" it's shareholders. I'm not aware that Xerox has admitted any such thing. We neither admitted nor denied wrongdoing in relation to the SEC settlement. I'll grant you Xerox stretched the limits of accounting because upper management wanted the results to look better than they were but they stopped well short of the levels of fraud seen by both Worldcom and Enron. How many companies do you think push the limits of accounting practice to present better results? Just Enron, Worldcom and Xerox? I've lost count of the number of companies currently under investigation by the SEC, in-fact the current market sell off is partly the result of a growing distrust in corporate accounting. My hope is that, after more than a year of investigation by the SEC Xerox now has "clean" accounts that will pass even the most rigorous scrutiny. How many S&P500 companies can say the same? Reply Recommend (0 recommendations so far) Message 5 of 8 in Discussion From: bearboy Sent: 7/1/2002 4:03 PM I stand corrected, I'm not aware either of any admission by Xerox, however in reading the SEC's complaint, the allegations are there, very clear cut and Xerox did choose to pay the "largest civil fine in corporate history" and did agree to restate their earnings and did find major problems in So. . Odd Bod, this wasn't a routine fine for a speeding ticket you know, this was a major $10,000,000 fine. Do you agree that it's OK to "push the limits of accounting practice to obtain better results" as in $6,000,000,000 in revenue? The fact that you're an employee and still don't see that this is morally, ethically and legally wrong is not a pleasant feeling. Also, the refi'ing of the outstanding debt can be looked upon as a good thing but how much is it going to cost you stockholders? Reply Recommend (0 recommendations so far) Message 6 of 8 in Discussion From: exxrxman Sent: 7/2/2002 9:01 AM you are right bearboy, fraud is fraud whether it was intentionally or unintentional...but from the period of time that the restatement covered, my guess it was done intentionally to hide the fact that the corporation was going to miss estimates from 1997-2001. I can understand if it was done in in one year but for 4+ years is a entirely different matter. Now with the revealations of financial shenanigans ( excuse my spelling..) oversees, I just think its just the tip of the iceberg. What else is Xerox Management is hiding that needs to be brought to light? Reply Recommend (0 recommendations so far) Message 7 of 8 in Discussion From: Clawstorm Sent: 7/2/2002 11:02 AM The Keller Rohrback L.L.P. and Susman & Watkins 401k Class Action suit against XrX might produce an answer to the above posted question. Reply Recommend (0 recommendations so far) Message 8 of 8 in Discussion From: bearboy Sent: 7/2/2002 11:58 AM exrxman: You ask what else could mgmt be hiding . . . as I recall the salaries and bonus structures for many of the Exec's in the "Toner Tower" are based on profit levels etc. I wonder if we'll see a "restatement" of their W-2's? Class action lawsuits are ineffective in gaining anything for stockholders/employees or in changing the way business is conducted as witnessed by the continued actions. Sure a good way to get $$$ in the pockets of attorneys though . . . misetich (07/02/02; 17:25:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 79741) Japanese banks hold 40 billion yen loan claims to WorldCom - report http://www.ananova.com/business/story/sm_620803.html?menu= Snip:Major Japanese banks have a total of about 40 billion yen worth of loans to WorldCom Inc, the US telecommunications firm that is currently caught in an accounting scandal, the Nihon Keizai Shimbun reported, without citing sources.Among the leading banking groups, Bank of Tokyo-Mitsubishi, a core member of Mitsubishi Tokyo Financial Group Inc, provided about 15 billion yen worth of short-term loans to WorldCom, it said.In addition, major Japanese banks appear to have WorldCom-related loan claims and assets in the form of corporate bonds, derivatives, stocks and other products, the report said.© AFX NewsMisetichGot gold? misetich (07/02/02; 17:18:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 79740) Moody's cuts ratings of Japan's big banks http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/money/story/0,1870,129676,00.html? Snip:The agency cites the lenders' frail financial condition as thelevel of bad debts continues to rise TOKYO - International credit appraiser Moody's Investors Service slashed its financial strength ratings for major Japanese banks yesterday due to their frail financial condition and ballooning bad debts. The ratings were cut for member banks from four of the world's largest banking groups:Mizuho Holdings;Sumitomo Mitsui Banking;Mitsubishi-Tokyo Financial Group; andUFJ Holdings. 'The downgrades...reflect these banks' very weak and low-quality economic capitalisation,' the New York-based firm said in a statement. Moody's said the banks' finances would require a high level of external support if a crisis arose. 'While Moody's recognises the significant franchises of these megabanks, their ability to translate this franchise into higher profitability is likely to be constrained for the foreseeable future in view of the very difficult operating environment,' it said. Japan's four mega banks suffered losses totalling more than US$21 billion (S$37.25 billion) in the year ended March but all predict a return to profitability this year. The lenders stepped up efforts to erase bad loans over the past financial year by getting tough with borrowers amid intense government pressure. But the overall level of bad loans increased as banks were forced to reclassify loans under new stricter guidelines imposed by Tokyo, analysts said. 'Potential credit losses in the banks' loan portfolios are, in Moody's view, still significant, and are not fully reflected in the disclosed non-performing assets numbers,' the credit agency said. Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi has made reducing bad loans at banks a crucial element of his reform plans aimed at lifting Japan out of a decade-long slump. Economists and other observers have said that an injection of more public money is inevitable if lenders are to effectively solve their bad loan headache. AFP MisetichJapanese government supporting buying stocks, injecttion of public money - banks, injection of public money - life insurance -Got gold? misetich (07/02/02; 17:09:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 79739) S&P cuts Brazil sovereign credit rating to B-plus Snip:NEW YORK, July 2 (Reuters) - Standard & Poor's on Tuesday lowered its rating on Brazil's sovereign debt citing pressures from growing public debt on the country's fiscal position, as Latin America's No. 1 economy braces for presidential elections in October.S&P cut Brazil's long-term foreign currency rating to B-plus -- four notches below investment grade -- from BB-minus, and its local currency debt rating to BB from BB-plus."Ever-tighter fiscal management is essential to maintain debt-to-GDP (ratios) at current levels, given the worsening domestic debt profile and heightened market concerns over political uncertainties," said Lisa Schineller, sovereign analyst at S&P.Brazilian markets have taken a blow in recent weeks, as leftist candidate Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, feared by Wall Street for his unclear economic policy direction, has maintained a strong lead in the polls. Copyright 2002, Reuters News ServiceMisetichGot gold? JJ (07/02/02; 16:57:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 79738) Yellow Metal Mess 79668 I looked at the Red Baron posts and they make interesting reading by ANOTHER and others. This is a quote from ZARDOZ on 25th Oct 1997 - I checked Kitco chart and that was around the time gold suffered a huge fall.Others on this forum have suggested that there will be a World currency & gold confiscation. I think wee're getting close to that point."My hypothesis is this for goldbugs and in response to ANOTHER's suggestion that bullion will be the preferred asset: neither stocks nor bullion will be of any use with the chaos that will ensue. I believe that neither stocks, options, or gold bullion will be worth anything should the markets and fiat currencies collapse. There may be a small window in which gold bullion prices soar, but if the powers to be render a market in gold bullion "valueless" as they have done in the US before (under Roosevelt, I believe ) then gold will simply be a black market commodity... those who have gold will be asked to turn it in (as they were asked in Germany and in the US) in exchange for another worthless form of a new global currency.I leave you with these draconian thoughts....but are they preposterous?" JJ (7/2/02; 16:15:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 79737) Alanka In answer to your question: Markets go up; markets go down. Usually when we least expect it. Hope that helps. mdgc (7/2/02; 16:02:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 79736) Camel's comments on Tibet I would suggest that the PRC did not "invade" Tibet as Camel suggests, they re-established the Chinese control/domination of Tibet of both the Kuomintang (Nationalists) and Qing Dynasty. Before the PLA (Chinese Army) entered Tibet in 1950, Nehru's India had sponsored meetings between representatives of the Dalai Lama and the Chinese government. These meetings produced something like the one-country/two-systems agreement with the British one the reunification of Hong Kong in 1997. The Dalai Lama would control domestic affairs and the Chinese military affairs and foreign relations. The rebellion of 1959 was encouraged, partly armed and funded by the CIA that had also trained Tibetans in Colorado. (Source: Orphans of the Cold War, Public Affairs, 1999, by the former CIA agent in responsible for Tibet, Ken Knaus). It was only after the Dalai Lama fled to India that the Chinese instituted their major reforms in Tibet. The first of these was to free the 80 or 90 percent of the population who were serfs and slaves in the feudal theocracy Tibet then was. I am always astounded by those like Richard Gere who seek the return of the god/king Dalai Lama to rule again.Camel has surely never been to Tibet. Had he been there, he would not suggest that there are now five million Chinese in Tibet and that their numbers exceed the Tibetans. This is certainly false, blatant anti-Chinese propaganda from the Tibetan Government in Exile. Only in Lhasa are there significant numbers of Chinese visible on the streets. Even in Lhasa there were many Tibetans than Chinese in April 2002. In the second and third largest cities, Shigaze and Tsedong, I saw very few Chinese.I do not doubt that there was much destruction in Tibet during the Cultural Revolution, or that Chinese rule has been heavy handed in the Maoist past. My point is that Tibet has changed just as China has changed. Communist Party rule is much less heavy handed now. Many more Tibetan children attend school. There is a university in Lhasa where formerly education was pretty much limited to the monasteries. The situation in Tibet has improved. The standard of living is rising. Tibetan resentment of the Chinese is falling with the passage of time.China's progress since Deng Xiaoping's Open Door Policy of the late 1970's has been astounding. Incomes have more than quadrupled. Savings rates are high and people have plenty money to spend and/or invest. The stock markets in Shanghai and Shenzhen are now ten years old. The gold market will open shortly and gold jewelery has been widely available for many years. China is becoming prosperous and that prosperity is beginning to reach Tibet.mdgc mikal (7/2/02; 15:56:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 79735) @Jon One reason why they still fall: magnitutude of sell orders domestic and overseas. Many days the indices should've given up 5 -10% or more, but end very different, even up sharply. Sentiment change had been so slow it was off the radar. Now it can't change/run fast enough, as we see lately, like today, high NASDAQ volume and large losses. Jon (7/2/02; 15:40:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 79734) PPT? mkts continue to fall Can't help but question alleged conspiracy to support the stock mkts. If this was indeed so, why are mkts tanking? Carl H (7/2/02; 15:25:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 79733) alanka: Gold Price http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/1149 The above link is a good summary of what is going on. alanka (7/2/02; 15:16:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 79732) gold price please somebody,out there, tell me why the gold price came down today? everything points to a higher price $ currency under pressure stocks are down. please explain misetich (7/2/02; 15:15:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 79731) Paris Market Suspends Vivendi Shares http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14387-2002Jul2.html Snip:PARIS –– On his last day as chairman, shares of Jean-Marie Messier's Vivendi Universal plunged so fast that the Paris stock exchange repeatedly suspended trading. Compounding the company's woes: a newspaper suggested Vivendi tried to fudge its accounts.............The plunge came after the ratings agency Moody's downgraded Vivendi's long-term debt to junk status Monday and said it was considering further downgrades. The agency cited concerns over Vivendi's ability to service its debt, over its recent acquisitions and its failure to complete sales of certain assets.Adding to investors' jitters was a report in the respected daily Le Monde that Vivendi sought, unsuccessfully, to embellish its 2001 accounts by 1.5 billion euros ($1.47 billion).MisetichDebt, debt and more debt - wouldn't want to be a bondholder, or banker of VivendiGot gold? misetich (7/2/02; 15:01:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 79730) US dollar set for further declines: UBS Warburg http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/economicnews/view/12137/1/.html Snip:The US' inability to contain its swelling current account deficit will cause the American currency to continue losing ground against other major currencies, European investment bank UBS Warburg said on Tuesday.Speaking at the bank's 2002 global conference outlook held in Singapore, Deputy chief economist Paul Donovan forecast the euro would rise to US$1.15 by the end of next year and the greenback would trade at 110 yen..............For the January-March quarter, the US current account deficit expanded to an unprecedented US$112.5 billion, up 18.3 percent from US$95.1 billion the previous quarter...........To finance the shortfall, the US needs to borrow from foreign investors willing to bankroll the country's appetite for imports.MisetichI doubt it very much that foreign investors are going to throw good money after bad- their US based investments in stocks must have taken a heck of a beating with all these crooked accountingGot gold? misetich (7/2/02; 14:53:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 79729) Searching for "US economic recovery" - Not in airline indusry http://money.iwon.com/jsp/nw/nwdt_ge.jsp?section=news&news_id=reu-n02368094&feed=reu&date=20020702&cat=USMARKET Snip:SEATTLE, July 2 (Reuters) - Boeing Co. (BA), the world's largest plane maker, said on Tuesday it had delivered 39 commercial jets in June, giving it a total of 112 deliveries in the second quarter and 222 in the first half of 2002.Boeing's Seattle-based jetliner unit plans to ship a total of 380 jets for the full year, down from 527 in 2001, as airlines have slashed flights amid a sharp decline in travel demand following the Sept. 11 attacks.MisetichOne of these days I'll find an industry - besides anti depressant pharmaceutical industry that is humming or will be - The airline industry is cash starved - ANOTHER bad sign Doubble dip recession, anyone?Got gold? misetich (7/2/02; 14:44:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 79728) Report: Bush in Enron-esque deal http://money.cnn.com/2002/07/02/news/bush_deals.reut/index.htm Snip:SEC reportedly found U.S. President broke securities law in energy deal, but no charges were filed...........MILWAUKEE (Reuters) - U.S. President George W. Bush brushed off a question Tuesday about whether he may have benefited from a sweetheart deal, similar to the situation at Enron, as a Texas oil man more than a decade ago, saying "everything I do is fully disclosed." New York Times columnist Paul Krugman suggested Tuesday that Bush's dealings may bear similarities to Enron Corp. and other companies that have undermined faith in corporate America and dragged the stock market down. .............The columnist said Harken was losing money but hid most of these losses in 1989 with profits it reported by selling a subsidiary, Aloha Petroleum, to a group of Harken insiders who borrowed much of the money from Harken for the purchase. Krugman said the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) ultimately ruled that this was a phony transaction and forced the company to restate its 1989 earnings. Before this ruling, however, Krugman said Bush, who served as a Harken board member and on its audit committee, sold two-thirds of his stake for $848,000 and did not inform the SEC for 34 weeks despite laws requiring prompt disclosure of insider sales. The columnist said an internal SEC memorandum concluded MisetichAs the November elections near, we can expect "more mud slinging " and hopefully disclosure by both sides on each other corruptnessThis type of news doesn't inspire confidence - especially for foreign investors.Got gold? Black Blade (7/2/02; 14:39:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 79727) Foreclosures soar http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/real_estate/article/0,1299,DRMN_414_1242052,00.html Weak economy could spur highest level in 11 yearsSnippit:Metro-area home foreclosures are headed for their highest level in 11 years, as the battered economy leads to a huge spike in homeowners defaulting on mortgages in the first half of the year. Foreclosures rose by 53.7 percent in the first six months of the year, compared with the same period in 2001, assuming that Denver and Jefferson counties continue the same pace of previous months. Those two counties have not tallied their foreclosures through June. Jeff Thredgold, economist for Vectra Bank Colorado, said the Denver area has lost about 40,000 jobs during the past year, the biggest factor in rising foreclosures. "A lot of people didn't have the financial clout to survive that and keep their houses," Thredgold said. "What made matters worse is the economic strength along the Front Range in the prior five to seven years, which fueled a level of optimism and rising home prices that people felt would last forever." Under those circumstances, many people with high-paying jobs bought bigger and more expensive homes than they could afford once they lost their jobs, he said. "I've had some clients who lost their jobs, who had sucked all of the equity out of their homes, and when they went to the closing they were lucky to break even," said David Binikowski, principal of Real Estate of the Rockies in Denver. "You have to beware of those 120 percent loans. Be wary of loans that take out all of the equity in your home. That's financial suicide." Black Blade: This scenario will play out (indeed it already is) across the US. Whatever you do – never put your home at risk. The sharks are circling and it is best to have Gold shark repellent. As always, get outta debt (and stay outta debt), stash enough cash for several months expenses, get Gold and Silver portfolio insurance, and start a nonperishable food and basic necessities storage program. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best. You'll be glad you did. off to the gym! misetich (7/2/02; 14:35:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 79726) Brazilian Currency Falls to Record Low on Debt Default Concern http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?ptitle=Top%20Financial%20News&s1=blk&tp=ad_topright_topfin&T=markets_bfgcgi_content99.ht&s2=ad_right1_topfin&bt=ad_position1_topfin&middle=ad_frame2_topfin&s=APSIEmxZWQnJhemls Snip:Rio de Janeiro, July 2 (Bloomberg) -- Brazil's currency slid to a record low as companies, banks and investors bought dollars, concerned that the nation's next government may default on $332 billion in debt. The real weakened as much as 1.7 percent to 2.94 to the dollar, driving up the cost of making payments on dollars. Bonds and stocks fell as investors bet opposition candidate Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, whose party has called for renegotiating foreign debt, will win the Oct. 6 presidential election. ``People are worried the next government won't pay the debt, so they want to move everything into dollars,'' said Alberto Alves Sobrinho, president of the Sao Paulo currency trading company Fair Corretora de Cambio e Valores Ltda. MisetichArgentina contagion continues - First Uraguay, now Brazil - US bank exposure in Brazil is large - and is a large importer of US goods and services - Got gold? MarkeTalk (7/2/02; 14:32:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 79725) More revelations to come on Xerox et al. Working here at Centennial has its perks besides the money, of course. One of those perks is information from sources close to the action. For example, I called one of my clients today who used to work for Xerox. He confirmed to me that Xerox is going down. What will trigger the fall will be most likely more upsetting revelations that should come out in the next few days. In his words, Xerox is basically a shell just waiting to collapse. For starters, the restatement of revenues ($6.4 billion in error) is just the tip of the iceberg which everyone already knows. What is not widely known is that Xerox and General Electric entered into a joint venture arrangement where a "transfer" of equipment leases was issued by Xerox Credit Corp. in the form of a loan to General Electric. Provisions included the reversion back to Xerox in the event of a default by Xerox. The value of this loan is almost $1 billion. Xerox just announced a $46 million quarterly loss which could trigger the default provision if the remaining quarters are unprofitable. At the rate the economy is faltering, this possibility could become a reality.He also said that the forthcoming 10-K report will reveal the level and nature of sales, i.e. whether there was double booking of sales in the credit corp. as well as in the sales group of Xerox itself. Other tidbits of interest are that Xerox sold off its manufacturing operations to Flextronics and that 60% of its employees are outsourced. Thus, there are really no tangible assets left in the company. The bottom line is: in the event of default, Xerox will make WorldCom look like child's play. Pundits estimate that WorldCom's liabilities at around $30 billion. Xerox's liabilities could exceed that amount easily. misetich (7/2/02; 14:31:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 79724) Searching for "US economic recovery" - Not in computer services http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?ptitle=Top%20Financial%20News&s1=blk&tp=ad_topright_topfin&T=markets_bfgcgi_content99.ht&s2=ad_right1_topfin&bt=ad_position1_topfin&middle=ad_frame2_topfin&s=APSICgRUlRWxlY3Ry Snip:Plano, Texas, July 2 (Bloomberg) -- Electronic Data Systems Corp. said it will eliminate 2,000 jobs this week as customers spend less. Shares and bonds of the world's second-largest computer- services seller fell after Moody's Investors Service said it may lower ratings on $4 billion of company debt. Misetich"Bone pile" is beginning to grow again - double dip recession anyone?Got gold? Black Blade (7/2/02; 14:31:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 79723) Currency intervention costs 3.3 trillion yen http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nb20020702a2.htm Snippit:Japanese monetary authorities have spent more than 3 trillion yen intervening in the currency market since late May, according to statistics compiled by the Finance Ministry.Black Blade: An act of desperate in the ongoing "Currency War". This truly amazing that now currencies around the globe are battling for the weaker currency. Soon only Gold will hold any value. Hell, let's make Buenos Aires the world capital. A Yen for your thoughts? Hmmm… misetich (7/2/02; 14:29:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 79722) Searching for "US economic recovery" - Not in auto industry - http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?ptitle=Top%20Financial%20News&s1=blk&tp=ad_topright_topfin&T=markets_bfgcgi_content99.ht&s2=ad_right1_topfin&bt=ad_position1_topfin&middle=ad_frame2_topfin&s=APSIDbhUGR2VuZXJh Snip:Detroit, July 2 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. auto sales fell in June, hurt by Ford Motor Co.'s 11 percent decline. General Motors Corp. sales rose 4.3 percent as discounts and newer truck models helped the largest automaker gain market share from its closest rival. .........General Motors estimated that industrywide sales fell 2 percent in June. Analysts had expected the seasonally adjusted annual sales rate to be little changed at 16.8 million vehicles. The economy's rebound from recession probably cooled to a 2.7 percent annual growth rate between April and June, according the median estimate in a Bloomberg News survey. That's less than half the 6.1 percent pace of the first three months of the year. Consumer confidence had its biggest decline since the Sept. 11 attacks in June, threatening to slow consumer spending. MisetichThe saying goes, America goes as the auto industry - well here you have it- sales and no profits - consumer debt increasing as autos are bought on "free financing".Double dip recession anyone? Soros call of 30% further US $ depreciation might just happen sooner rather than laterGot gold? Black Blade (7/2/02; 14:26:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 79721) FEDS TO FINGER BLODGET & CO. http://www.nypost.com/business/51572.htm Criminal charges are expected to fly soon against former analysts at Merrill Lynch.Snippit: Federal prosecutors are expected to level criminal charges against some of Wall Street's former high-flying Internet analysts as soon as next week, sources told The Post. While it is unclear who might be charged, those under the gun include former Merrill Lynch analyst Henry Blodget as well as others who were the targets of a lawsuit brought recently by New York Attorney General Eliot Spitzer, sources familiar with the federal probe said. Black Blade: It looks like the Street will have new food for thought next week as these charlatans are led off in handcuffs. You just gotta know this will become a TV movie. Black Blade (7/2/02; 14:20:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 79720) Grim and Bear It http://www.fortune.com/indexw.jhtml?channel=artcol.jhtml&doc_id=208550 Snippit:Do you know the difference between so-called cyclical and secular bear markets? The former is really a bear market in the middle of a bull market, like 1990 sandwiched inside the incredible bull run that lasted from the early '80s through 2000. A secular bear market, by contrast, is where the bear is the dominant beast. Any moves to the upside are just hiccups. That's what happened in the 1970s, and, it seems, is what's happening now. Oh, they'll tell you, "Stock prices have come down. It's time to buy." But, of course, earnings have come down too. In other words, stocks ain't cheap. Yes, the economy appears to be recovering. But even the captain of the cheerleading squad, Alan Greenspan, is calling it a pedestrian recovery. David Hilder, bank analyst with Bear Stearns, notes, "The economy is still producing $5 billion of nonperforming commercial loans per quarter," up from less than $2 billion a quarter two years ago. Hilder expects improvement next year, but who really knows? In bear markets analysts tend to slice, dice, and saute numbers until they create a bullish scenario. A recent Wall Street Journal article cites a study by Birinyi Associates noting that many, mostly smaller stocks have done quite nicely over the past 30 months. Fair enough, but who is nimble enough to dance in and out of stocks like Tweedlestix and Burritofish? (Please don't ask for tickers. They aren't real!) It's not as if they are the kind of stocks you stick in your portfolio and forget about for 20 years. They just happened to have been cheap. "Where," asked Morgan Stanley's Barton Biggs recently, "have all the growth stocks gone?" Not surprisingly, the ever bearish Biggs says they are nowhere to be found. For once, I agree with him. Black Blade: A fun article. It does lay it on the line though. Black Blade (7/2/02; 14:15:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 79719) Layoff Plans Rose 12 Percent in June http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/020702/economy_layoffs_3.html Snippit:NEW YORK (Reuters) - Layoff announcements by U.S. firms rose 12 percent in June, led by further job losses in the beleaguered telecommunications industry, said a report on Tuesday that suggested the labor market remains weak. Black Blade: Look for the "Bone Pile" to continue growing in spite of massaged BLS data. The economy is weakening further. sector (7/2/02; 14:05:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 79718) On Monday Morning... The Stock Market Will Still Be Heavily Overvalued...Regardless of Terrorist's Plans. AND gold and its shares will still be a safe heaven as the dollar gets ready to sink further.In addition, many many more large corporations will still face "Earnings" restatements, SEC investigations and possible prison sentences for their "Officers". Moreover, the real market culprits will still be free to continue weaking havoc on the portfolios of trusting investors and pensioners.The Fed will still issue bogus data to mislead the gullible.And...most of all, the primary market trend will still be down...towards the means.NASDAQ=600, DOW=6,000, S&P500=500 Black Blade (7/2/02; 13:59:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 79717) The Future of Physical Investment in Gold by Albert Cheng http://www.gold.org/sp_archive/docs/ACHENG-LBMA%20Speech-2002.doc Albert Cheng is the head of Head of Retail Investment for the World Gold Council. The link has his speech at the LBMA conference in San Francisco. - Black Blade Mr Gresham (7/2/02; 13:20:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 79716) Found on another forum and thought it was just right for us today, tomorrow, and maybe even after..."I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.For man also knoweth not his time; as the fishes that are taken in a net, and as the birds that are caught in a snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them."Ecclesiastes Does anybody write like this anymore? (Well, I think we come close to having some originals around here -- someday, when they publish "The Gold Testament", hmmmm... maybe...) Mr Gresham (7/2/02; 13:08:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 79715) Looks like silver's starting to move on its high again.Are Eagles (gold) starting to separate from POG? Premiums look higher today -- maybe just temporary?(This from a guy who talks about "wiggles" below -- ;-) -- I'm a wiggle-watcher with the best of 'em -- gotta cut this out and get back to work!) da2g (7/2/02; 13:05:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 79714) silver Unusual bit of divergence between silver and gold today. Perhaps not to recur, but I have been mulling over the possibility of this occurring for some time. If I had the wherewithal, and my ultimate goal was to end up with a maximum amount of gold, why not sequentially light the precious metal fuses, rather than all at once? That way the profits could be rolled from one to the other. First palladium, then roll the profits into platinum, work that metal upward, then roll the profits into silver, and after that has been profitable, finally gold.So far has worked well for me, although I didn't really plan it that way. I just need silver to make a nice run and still be able to cash out into gold. Perhaps just a figment of an overactive imagination, but the possibility intrigues me. Mr Gresham (7/2/02; 12:57:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 79713) Things I never knew...(nor cared much about) http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/p25387.asp about the construction of the S&P 500 index -- not so "scientific" as most would think. NAZ, also, but less human intervention.People are just starting to stretch awake out of their sleeping pods -- and they will sell at SPX 950 what they should have sold at 1150. And they'll sell at 750 what they might have sold at 950, driving it on down to 550, or below.Sitting on POG, with whatever they are now, just means greater compression. Compression in price, and in time. The time window for entry when it ends will be shorter. Weeks not months; days not weeks. And finally, hours.These little wiggles? Bygone memories.Kind of like a 2-hour SAT exam, to measure your entire 4 years of high school study. Not fair, entirely, but 'at's 'ow it's done.So it goes. Twas ever thus, saith Mr Natural. They never learn, saith Spanky... Have a good 'un! Carl H (7/2/02; 12:46:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 79712) Margin calls From the another chatboard:"Margin levels very high BUT rumors that FED/SEC have secretly relaxed rules to minimize damaging effects of margin calls."This would not surprise me at all. If this is true, then it makes the market action look even worse. It will also help maximize the carnage as this drags on.Over the long weekend here people will probably talk about stocks and the pessimism will reinforce itself.Got gold? sector (7/2/02; 12:35:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 79711) @G-Kahn COME ON IN The Water's FINE over here. Love your "Silver" talk! Carl H (7/2/02; 12:34:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 79710) Tyco director-'Worldcom just couldn't happen here' http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/020702/manufacturing_tyco_accountants_2.html Snip"We've had forensic accountants in here on our own," Fort said. "The current investigation is using forensic accountants as well. ... With the amount of time we've had and the amount of emphasis we've had, something like WorldCom just couldn't happen here." End SnipCarlH: Yea, right. Got Gold. sector (7/2/02; 12:32:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 79709) Germany's Ver.di Says Bundesbank Should Sell Gold, Paper Says More Propaganda from Desperate BIS Fools. Currency Europe 07/02 08:03By Sonja DieckhoeferBerlin, July 2 (Bloomberg) -- Ver.di, Europe's biggest union, proposed that the Bundesbank sell most of its gold reserves to invest in public projects, German newspaper Die Welt said. ``The Bundesbank should sell as much as possible of its gold reserves,'' Ver.di President Frank Bsirske told the paper. ``Given the current gold price, one could make more than 27 billion euros ($26.6 billion).'' The revenue should be used to improve infrastructure, child care, research and education, to improve the quality of life and create jobs above all in eastern Germany, said Bsirske, according to Die Welt. Bundesbank President Ernst Welteke earlier this year said he may sell some of the bank's gold to invest the money in better returning assets after a 1999 accord limiting central bank sales of gold expires in 2004.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++The reason that the BundesBank will not sell their gold is that they ALREADY have LOANED it into the BIS $232 Billion gold derivatives pool. They cannot sell what they do not own.Doubtless, the BundesBank is nevertheless burning the midnight oil searching for ways to explain where their gold went and who now has clear title to it. Watch for a creative way to "Swap" for those really valuable paper securities which allways go up.That way they don't have to explain how they lost Germany's gold. The Hoople (7/2/02; 12:16:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 79708) Paradigm shift hits reverse Thank God those stupid expressions have went by the wayside.As I look at the carnage of the post-bubble I remember Garry North referring to when the public finally "connected the dots". While many dots are geting connected there are many still remaining to be fully understood. I have a perspective on a few more that aren't being appreciated yet. I do believe they are signifcant.* D-O (director & officer ) insurance. Insurance for board of directors will become impossible to obtain. Insurance companies right now are already connecting the dots of just the current exposure and it will be frightening. D-O insurance most usually is "claims made" and on an aggregate basis. Simply put, the board might be drastcally under-insured and not realize it. Worse, they could be held accountable as a previous board/executive memmber, but have NO insurance since many policies only cover current members. Nobody in their right mind would want to step into a nightmare like this which will increase the chances of key positions left unfilled. Huge D-O premium increases, along with higher pay for the risk and less chance of stock option shenanigans spells disaster for much of corporate America. I have personal experience with this subject and assure you after a year of sleepless nights I have turned down every subsequent board position offerd. Many went unfilled and they were forced to downsized boards. I will "live small' as others here say.*Productivity "miracle' hits reverse too. Even though now its revealed productivity was no real miracle it will get much worse. Imagine the poisinous atmosphere of the Enrons and Worldcoms. Portfolios smashed, options worthless, no chance of big pay increases, and scared ----less surviving workers. Add to that litany lying higher ups and you have a toxic work environment. Remember how shoddy workmanship became in the 70's? I'll bet the defective product stories will hit the airwaves any time. I believe price earnings looking forward currently have none of this priced in. It makes a ridiculously over-valued stock market seem even worse. The PPT better have TRILLIONS to fire at the market and suppress gold. They will need it. YGM (7/2/02; 11:41:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 79707) More Depressing Stuff.... http://www.americanfreedomnews.com/ Pages like the above make you want to gather your Coin & family etc. and head for a peaceful Mtn valley somewhere...What next?.........I cannot imagine watching people jumpy and nervous while July 4th Fireworks entertain the children.....Sad state of affairs indeed.....YGM YGM (7/2/02; 11:31:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 79706) G-KHAN & SKYVIKE.......... Please post here where you land...... I for one (and suspect many) will miss your intellect across the way.....Drop in, as the drawbridge is down and Gandalfs' "Crockagators" are harmless if you show them some Gold or Silver......YGM."GO GATA" "Go Physical" sector (7/2/02; 10:31:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 79705) Cisco, AOL, More U.S. Companies May Revise Accounting (Update1 http://www.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?T=marketsquote99_news.ht&s=APSCyDRTgQ2lzY28s By Adam LevyNew York, July 1 (Bloomberg) -- When U.S. companies release second-quarter results this month, their accounting practices may get more attention than the numbers they produce. Investors and analysts are bracing for more revisions to financial reports in the wake of last week's multibillion-dollar restatements at WorldCom Inc. and Xerox Corp. and earlier ones at companies such as Enron Corp. and Kmart Corp. ``There will be a continuing stream of these blow-ups,'' said Howard Schilit, president of the Center for Financial Research and Analysis Inc., an independent research firm in Rockville, Maryland. They represent the flip side of the 1990s bull market for stocks, ``where the most egregious behavior was rewarded,'' he said. Schilit, who doesn't invest in stocks, said the most likely candidates for accounting revisions are companies such as Cisco Systems Inc. that grew with the help of acquisitions. AOL Time Warner Inc., once faulted for accounting similar to WorldCom's, and 3M Co., which has taken charges for seven quarters in a row, also deserve scrutiny, he said. International Business Machines Corp. tops the list of Bill Fleckenstein, president of Fleckenstein Capital Inc., who has bet against the company by selling borrowed shares. Other candidates, he said, might include Mirant Corp., Omnicom Group Inc., Oracle Corp. and Qwest Communications International Inc. Source of Losses U.S. companies are filing financial restatements to correct false or faulty accounting at a record pace this year, according to a study by New York University's Stern School of Business. The current record is 158, set last year. Restatements almost tripled from 1997 to 2001. This is more than a bookkeeping issue. Investors have lost $150 billion in the past year alone on WorldCom, which inflated profits by improperly accounting for some expenses; Enron, which hid debt through the use of partnerships; and Tyco International Ltd., whose accounting for acquisitions has drawn the attention of the Securities and Exchange Commission.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++People stay mad a very long time when they lose money…even if it was their fault. Now that there are greasy culprits with faces, names and addresses to affix blame, watch out for much more fireworks. USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc. (7/2/02; 10:23:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 79704) Stocks, bonds, currencies, fads, bubbles and governments come and go. Gold is forever. http://www.usagold.com/ProductsPage.html
Permission to reprint is hereby granted where the USAGOLD name is cited along with our web address, mailing address and phone number. For electronic reproductions, citing the post heading and the http://www.usagold.com/cpmforum/ website address as the source is sufficient.