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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 11/2/2001 All times are U.S. Mountain Time (Yesterday's Discussion.) Netking (11/2/01; 23:45:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 64585) Gold and Silver warehouse stocks http://www.futuresource.com/news/news.asp?story=i4198634307117121537 Comex - Nov 2. Mr Gresham (11/2/01; 22:41:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 64584) tg : von mises -- Citizenship ""No one can find a safe way out for himself if society is sweeping towards destruction. Therefore everyone, in his own interests, must thrust himself vigorously into the intellectual battle. "That's a wonderful quote; Mises sounds like, guess who, Ralph Nader. We live in a pathetic age when someone needs to suggest to us that we each spend, not one hour a day, but one measly hour a week being CITIZENS of this free land.(Every time the President says "consumer" in public, he should immediately be strapped down and forced to say "Citizen, citizen... " 100 times.)It begins with SELF-education, and it is obvious that we and the denizens of a hundred other 'Net forums do more than our share in that regard.(And look -- we even end up coming to some opposite opinions after that -- but the important factor is the INTELLIGENCE showing in and after the effort at self-educating.)A majority of Americans are far from even beginning that self-education to participate in democratic citizenship. (Are we here, perhaps, over-compensating for them?) Some of that time would be better spent getting these ideas of Mises and Nader -- about becoming true CITIZENS, WHATEVER your opinion turns out to be -- to our families, friends and neighbors. BR549 (11/2/01; 22:13:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 64583) Gold and 21st Century WAR http://www.usagold.com/gildedopinion/Jensen/index.html uponroof (msg#: 64571)---Your posts are right on the money. Still no proof on this site of the Allies intentionally "slaughtering innocents" in Afghanistan. Collateral damage occurs in all wars: The Pentagon says the (Taliban civilian death) figures are exaggerated, but admits that civilian deaths are impossible to avoid in an air war, a.k.a., collateral damage. No INTENT here like with 911.tg (msg#: 64582)"...we all must keep in mind that all that is needed for evil to triumph is to misunderstand the nature of evil, and to target the wrong "enemy.": In reference to "evil" I quote Holger Jensen—"There have been some dramatic foreign policy realignments at home and abroad, and one can safely say that bin Laden has achieved none of his purported goals. In the words of British Prime Minister Tony Blair, "Out of the shadow of this evil should emerge lasting good."Terrorism is different that any other war that we have fought because the evil is spread around the globe in over 60 countries. The Allies will eventually target the "right" enemy but unfortunately many civilians will pay the ultimate price in the meanwhile.Mr Gresham (msg#: 64575)--I read your link to Doug Noland -- Credit Bubble Bulletin. A great link but the horrors there, may have been more suitable reading on Halloween.(Ha!) "Lotsa" problems. Rea good stuff there.BTW-I get your message and since Gold is indeed a "political metal" that the new economic and military war that that is being waged against terrorism is relevant to the world's economic situation and ultimately to the POG. Listen to the words I do agree with about this new war of the 21st Century:"Bin Laden's greatest mistake, perhaps, was in creating an alliance that no collection of religious zealots or Muslim states can hope to defeat. ..."He may or may not yet prove able to foment a Muslim uprising of great breadth but, by inadvertence, he seems to have made a far more potent alliance nearly inevitable. Only a strategic blunder even greater than his own will prevent the United States, China and Russia from joining now in common cause to protect the order and security of which they uniquely are guarantors."--Holger JensenThanks for the advice though.BR549 tg (11/2/01; 21:37:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 64582) (No Subject) http://www.dailyreckoning.com/ BR549 & Uponroof - As Joseph Sobran said, "You delude and flatter yourself if you think someone hates you for your virtues." Their deep hatred is rooted in years of bullying by the U.S. government, whose embargoes, bullets, bombs, and cruise missiles have been brought to bear on them whenever and wherever American politicians felt it in their own interests to do so."No one can find a safe way out for himself if society is sweeping towards destruction. Therefore everyone, in his own interests, must thrust himself vigorously into the intellectual battle. None can stand aside with unconcern; the interests of everyone hang on the result. Whether he chooses or not, every man is drawn into the great historical struggle, the decisive battle into which our epoch has plunged us."(ludwig von mises)I agree, but we all must keep in mind that all that is needed for evil to triumph is to misunderstand the nature of evil, and to target the wrong "enemy." BR549 (11/2/01; 20:50:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 64581) The time between first discovering gold deposits and actually beginning to mine the gold can be as long as five years. Last year, this resulted in a positive $1.5 billion contribution to the nation's balance of trade. http://www.goldinstitute.org Some tidbits that I found while attempting to find the total production of Gold. The est. total is 1454.35 millions of troy oz's. The U.S. is solidly in 2nd place behind S. Africa in production. "For many years, 75% or more of the gold needed by U.S. manufacturers was imported from other countries. From 1980 forward, however, U.S. gold production climbed steadily -- from one million to nearly 11 million ounces annually -- due to important advances in exploration, mining and processing technologies. Today, the U.S. is the world's second largest producer and can meet all of its domestic gold needs while still making 36% of U.S. production available for export. Last year, this resulted in a positive $1.5 billion contribution to the nation's balance of trade.""The time between first discovering gold deposits and actually beginning to mine the gold can be as long as five years. This planning and preparation process is also expensive, often requiring an investment of hundreds of millions of dollars before the first ounce of gold can be produced.""And because gold is biologically inactive, it has become a vital tool for medical research and is even used in the direct treatment of arthritis and other intractable diseases." Maybe someday a future cure for anthrax?So if these Gold mines go out of business via too low a price, it will take years to bring the production back. I wonder who is buying the $1.5BB the U.S. is exporting? An interesting site for other uses of physical Gold for those who have not visited in a while.BR549 slingshot (11/2/01; 20:00:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 64580) Black Blade Body Count As the number of unemployed approaches 1 million and those who have been removed from the roles of benifits one can only imagine the hardships that will befall many families in the USA and around the world. Even if they find work at pay well below their past earnings they will still find themselves in dire straits. The industrial base of The USA has long gone to rust with the introduction of High Tech.Has the plan been to reduce this country to a third worldparticipant even if it has superpower status in name only?I feel that goldbugs at this time are fortunate to buy gold at this price while we still have jobs. For how long? The destruction of the middle class would be a major win for TPTB. Who would then buy the bullion while they struggle to put food on the table? While they frown at the mention of Gold they only condemn themselves to be servant to the ruling class. As one has mentioned before if each one of us would buy one ounce we would put such a demand on gold that it could free gold from manipulation.As I have read over time your Body Count and your warnings have become more urgent,I wanted to show a direct corellation between the body count and the purchase of gold.Unemployment, availability and a rise in the price of gold would put most out of reach to accumulate. The time is now to put away for the rainy day.On the flip side, most people that lurk here will understand unemployment and not all the market terms use in this forum and they may become Goldbugs.Slingshot tg (11/2/01; 19:46:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 64579) Uponroof WW2 - Hiroshima,Nagasagi, Dresden. All aimed at instilling fear and killing as many innocents as possible. ( a bit like 911 dont you think)1969 - when Nixon and kissenger launched their secret and illegal bombing of neutral Cambodia, witn American pilots logs being falsified to conceal the crime. Between 1969 and 1973 American bombers killed 3/4 million Cambodian pesants1996- Israel massacred 102 refugees including women and children in a UN base in Qana, South Lebanon.If you ask I will give you 100 more.Its only a crime and acts of terrorism when it happens to us, Its a war when it happens to them. We are all murderers no matter which way you try and justify it Galearis (11/2/01; 19:33:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 64578) @Old Yeller re: JP's Storm Watch Update http://www.financialsense.com/stormwatch/update.htm I especially like the finish:snippet*************I go back to my original questions posed at the beginning of this article. How bad will this recession get, how long will it last, and what will the recovery look like if and when it emerges? That depends on many things that may be beyond the government's ability to control. It will depend on whether there are further terrorist acts and how quickly we are able to end this war. It will depend on consumer and investor confidence. It will depend on the strength and confidence of the dollar. It will rest on chance that there will be no more financial contagions or brush fires that will have to be put out. It will be based on the hope that inflation doesn't resurface, that energy prices remain stable, and the price of gold and silver can be kept from rising. "Depends" and "if" are big words in a time of recession and war. It will take more than countermeasures to keep them from striking their targets. ~ JP*****************Especially the reference to gold AND silver...G. Black Blade (11/2/01; 18:05:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 64577) Bush says higher jobless rate "not good news" http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/011102/n02338695_3.html Snippit:WASHINGTON, Nov 2 (Reuters) - President George W. Bush made an urgent appeal on Friday to the U.S. Senate to pass his economic stimulus package, decrying last month's surge in unemployment as ``not good news for America.''Black Blade: "Not good news" - I'd say that is an understatement. Black Blade (11/2/01; 17:52:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 64576) Forbes Body Count http://www.forbes.com/2001/01/30/layoffs.html As the humongus pile of "Bones" grows ever higher, these few nonessential "Bones" just were added. It will get much worse of course as companies struggle to remain viable. The 5.4% unemployment number is only the "Bones" that qualify for benefits and not the disqualified "Bones" or those sore old "Bones" that have given up. The unemployed now are about 7.8% of the qualified US population. The number is likely to grow upwards to 14% to 22% in the intermediate term and probably in the 22% to 28% range when correlated to historical data (projected worst case). Definitely get prepared for the other shoe to drop - get out of debt, get basic necessities, gold and silver portfolio insurance, defensively realign the investment portfolio (be very "picky"), and have enough cash set aside for several months expenses. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best. Mr Gresham (11/2/01; 17:47:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 64575) Doug Noland -- Credit Bubble Bulletin http://216.46.231.211/credit.htm Hey, the gang's all here (Is it Friday night already?) slingshot (11/2/01; 17:24:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 64574) interstate Msg# 645548 potassium iodide Potassium iodide which is in some brands of table salt does have the capability to ward off radiation sickness when the thyroid is saturated. But is by no means full protection. Also if you are allergic to iodine can cause death.First reaction would be hot flashes. I know cause I am alergic to iodine and beside table salt, seafood can do me in. Anyhow it looks like Goldbugs are thinking about plenty of things that could happen.The price of Gold is back to $280.00 Good,I can still buy some. Silver at $4.11 and my coin dealer still at $5.75.Have to do some looking around,yes?Slingshot Pandagold (11/2/01; 16:52:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 64573) Uponroof Peace and - stay happy Uponroof I have said my piece, and Mr Gresham has made a very valid comment which I will take to heart.However, in your feeling that you know where I am coming from, I do hope you include that I am, as yet, not totally convinced of who really is responsible for Sept 11th.I have learned not to trust what politicians want me to believe. I also believe in our system of English justice that a man is innocent until proven guilty by an impartial judge and jury- whatever the crime.Maybe I am just old fashioned, or just too British.Cheers, stay happy Pandagold (11/2/01; 16:33:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 64572) Mr Gresham Agreed You are so perfectly on the mark. I vowed never to let anyone get me in that trap again. It is so easy to be led astray if you drop your guard. No one wins, everyone loses - even the 'innocent' bystanders.Back to gold and things directly related ( I will repeat that mantra until I fall asleep tonight.) I promise uponroof (11/02/01; 16:26:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 64571) Pandagold I see we are going to have to agree to disagree here. Quickly, let me end with this: E Hemmingway, someone who lost a war with himself, is hardly a source for what war is about. You may prefer his idealistic view of it being 'a crime', I understand it as a necessity in this cursed world. Pandagold: "...Uponroof: I checked back to your original post. You did not make it quite clear that you wanted incidents in this particular 'conflict' of slaughtering innocents by Britain and the US. However, you cannot divorce what precedents are set on one occasion from another. Once these things are done they become examples. The greatest teaching is by -'monkey see, monkey do..."You have replaced the examples I seek with your theory of "precedents set on one occasion from another...monkey see, monkey do...". No good. No accountability. We could justify every homicide since the Garden of Eden through this philosophy. I would like to see something equivalent of the very intentional killing of 5000 completely innocent civilians, which was perpetrated on the Taliban. While you're at it please try to explain why these 'oppressed muslims' are executing women for expressing themselves as equals. If not, that's OK. I have a very good idea of where you're coming from now. My understanding of your position is enough. Persuation through a keyboard is almost impossible. Perhaps another time in a pub over beers my friend. Till then the endless quest to change others opinions will wait. Cheers. auspec (11/2/01; 16:18:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 64570) ORO Good Sir, may I direct a question you way in regards to the various 'independent' Central Banking institutions across the globe? The pupil is in search of the teacher. Would love one of your extensive and in-depth analysis, but will settle for what you are willing to explain, or even a pertinent reference. These questions have been expressed a couple times in the last week or so w no takers. I have no doubts that you are more than capable of expounding on this issue if you would be so gracious.Starting with our own Fed, its owners are known and fairly available to a 'seeker'. Of course there is a degree of common ownership between the Fed and the BoE, and I will further venture this 'commonality' extends outwards to Canada, South Africa, Australia, and New Zealand just for starters.How about the various EU countries? There have certainly been 'mergers and acquisitions' throughout the centuries, no? The simple fact that the same folks keep marrying the same folks speaks for commonality of CB ownership here.China is most intriguing to try and figure out along this line of thought. Are they strictly centrally planned w/o outside influences, or have the ancient European and Chinese passages left footprints? Brits to HK to China? Same goes with Russia {even more so} with their previous monarchy.How about South America, which has deep European ties, being former 'colonies' to a degree at least? Of course there are many methods of 'influencing' a country such as Ecuador into gold market participation, really no point in elaborating right now. Common partial ownership or undue influence wouldn't hurt the cause.I would guess that the Islamic world of CBs is a world unto itself. How does all this break down?Are CB ownership 'chips' subject to transfers or M & A's? Hostile takeovers? Can you advance this line of thinking for many of us?Thank you in advance, ORO.Kind regards,auspec Mr Gresham (11/2/01; 16:02:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 64569) Panda & BR549, & liquidity thoughts on a walk You've both been doing so well for us lately, keeping us thinking about the bigger picture we're living in. When you go slightly OT to make a point about gold & economics, we follow. When you go far down one of the trails, we hesitate. When you quarrel over a fork in one of the trails, and it starts to sound personal, we feel embarrassed and wish we were somewhere else. We want you to come back to the context where we so much value your contributions.Me, pondering the infla,defla, lala question once more: It seems much more important just WHO gets the newly-"printed" money in a time of collapse, and then what THEY do with that money, doesn't it? It starts to get much more directly traceable (wish it were, anyway) to individual institutions and their investment positions.For example, Fed looks like it's going to end up propping up the FNM and other GSE paper, by purchasing it with Fed fiat. That cushions the crucial housing market when paper prices are dropping all around it. But, most important, it bails out GSE paper-holders, makes them whole. First ring of preference, after T-bond holders? They get a check, and the Fed gets to work out our future mortgage payments. (?Does it point this way?, check me on it)The former GSE paper holder now has $ in his checking account. Liquidity seeks inflating assets. He knows that values are crashing down around him, and housing will follow eventually. His move must be into unleveraged REAL assets, like PMs.Unless he is bound under some terms of the Fed bailout to keep his money in the desired arena, his self-interest calls for moves in our direction.The questions during a recession are: WHO has the cash, and WHO has pricing power?This is how Fed money-"printing" moves gold up, in otherwise deflationary times. Old Yeller (11/2/01; 15:02:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 64568) Storm watch update http://www.financialsense.com/stormwatch/update.htm Interesting times. Leigh (11/2/01; 14:13:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 64567) Where is Aristotle? Didn't Aristotle promise to come back a couple of weekends ago? What could have happened to him? Centennial Precious Metals, Inc. / USAGOLD (11/2/01; 14:03:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 64566) It's all about quality (and quantity, too) http://www.usagold.com/ProductsPage.html
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