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Welcome to the USAGOLD Gold Discussion Archives. The archives of this gold discussion forum are a treasure trove of information to educate investors about protecting their wealth through portfolio diversification with private gold ownership. The discussion forum also covers the wider issues of the past, present, and future role of gold in international monetary policy and the dynamics of the modern gold markets...   (Discussion Forum Hall of Fame) (The Gold Trail) ("Thoughts!" by ANOTHER)   The opinions posted by all guests are expressly their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the management or staff of USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals. The hosting of the public discussion shall therefore not be construed as an endorsement by USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals of any of the opinions posted here.

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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 10/2/2001
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

(Yesterday's Discussion.)

tg (10/2/01; 23:01:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 62853)
(No Subject)
Probably worth a re-read before the American ideal is lost.
think first, rather then believe all you hear.

Fake Terrorism - The Road To Dictatorship By Michael Rivero
http://24.142.63.193/perl/profile?op=show&user=Michael%20Rivero

It's the oldest trick in the book, dating back to Roman times;
creating the enemies you need.

In 70 BC, an ambitious minor politician and extremely wealthy man,
Marcus Licineus Crassus, wanted to rule Rome. Just to give you an idea
of what sort of man Crassus really was, he is credited with invention
of the fire brigade. But in Crassus' version, his fire-fighting slaves
would race to the scene of a burning building whereupon Crassus would
offer to buy it on the spot for a tiny fraction of it's worth. If the
owner sold, Crassus' slaves would put out the fire. If the owner
refused to sell, Crassus allowed the building to burn to the ground.
By means of this device, Crassus eventually came to be the largest
single private landholder in Rome, and used some of his wealth to help
back Julius Caesar against Cicero.

In 70 BC Rome was still a Republic, which placed very strict limits on
what Rulers could do, and more importantly NOT do. But Crassus had no
intentions of enduring such limits to his personal power, and
contrived a plan.

Crassus seized upon the slave revolt led by Sparticus in order to
strike terror into the hearts of Rome, whose garrison Sparticus had
already defeated in battle. But Sparticus had no intention of marching
on Rome itself, a move he knew to be suicidal. Sparticus and his band
wanted nothing to do with the Roman empire and had planned from the
start merely to loot enough money from their former owners in the
Italian countryside to hire a mercenary fleet in which to sail to
freedom.

Sailing away was the last thing Crassus wanted Sparticus to do. He
needed a convenient enemy with which to terrorize Rome itself for his
personal political gain. So Crassus bribed the mercenary fleet to sail
without Sparticus, then positioned two Roman legions in such a way
that Sparticus had no choice but to march on Rome.

Terrified of the impending arrival of the much-feared army of
gladiators, Rome declared Crassus Praetor. Crassus then crushed
Sparticus' army and even though Pompeii took the credit, Crassus was
elected Consul of Rome the following year.

With this maneuver, the Romans surrendered their Republican form of
government. Soon would follow the first Triumvirate, consisting of
Crassus, Pompeii, and Julius Caesar, followed by the reign of the god-
like Emperors of Rome.

The Romans were hoaxed into surrendering their Republic, and accepting
the rule of Emperors.

Julius Caesar's political opponent, Cicero, for all his literary
accomplishments, played the same games in his campaign against Julius
Caesar, claiming that Rome was falling victim to an internal "vast
right wing" conspiracy in which any expressed desire for legislative
limits no government was treated as suspicious behavior. Cicero, in
order to demonstrate to the Romans just how unsafe Rome has become
hired thugs to cause as much disturbance as possible, and campaigned
on a promise to end the internal strife if elected and granted
extraordinary powers.

What Cicero only dreamed of, Adolph Hitler succeeded in doing. Elected
Chancellor of Germany, Hitler, like Crassus, had no intention of
living with the strict limits to his power imposed by German law.
Unlike Cicero, Hitler's thugs were easy to recognize; they all wore
the same brown shirts. But their actions were no different than those
of their Roman predecessors. They staged beatings, set fires, caused
as much trouble as they could, while Hitler made speeches promising
that he could end the crime wave of subversives and terrorism if he
was granted extraordinary powers.

The Germans were hoaxed into surrendering their Republic, and
accepting the rule of Der Fuhrer.

The state-sponsored schools will never tell you this, but governments
routinely rely on hoaxes to sell their agendas to an otherwise
reluctant public. The Romans accepted the Emperors and the Germans
accepted Hitler not because they wanted to, but because the carefully
crafted illusions of threat appeared to leave no other choice.

Our government too uses hoaxes to create the illusion that We The
People have no choice but the direction the government wishes us to go
in.

In 1898, Joseph Pulitzer's New York World and William Randolph
Hearst's New York Journal were arguing for American intervention in
Cuba. Hearst is reported to have dispatched a photographer to Cuba to
photograph the coming war with Spain. When the photographer asked just
what war that might be, Hearst is reported to have replied, "You take
the photographs, and I will provide the war". Hearst was true to his
word, as his newspaper published stories of great atrocities being
committed against the Cuban people, most of which turned out to be
complete fabrications.

On the night of February 15, 1898, the USS Main, lying in Havana
harbor in a show of US resolve to protect her interests, exploded
violently. Captain Sigsbee, the commander of the Maine, urged that no
assumptions of enemy attack be made until there was a full
investigation of the cause of the explosion. For this, Captain Sigsbee
was excoriated in the press for "refusing to see the obvious". The
Atlantic Monthly declared flat out that to suppose the explosion to be
anything other than a deliberate act by Spain was "completely at
defiance of the laws of probability".

Under the slogan "Remember the Maine", Americans went to war with
Spain, wresting from that nation ownership of what is now much of the
American southwest.

In 1975, an investigation led by Admiral Hyman Rickover examined the
data recovered from a 1911 examination of the wreck and concluded that
there had been no evidence of an external explosion. The most likely
cause of the sinking was a coal dust explosion in a coal bunker
imprudently located next to the ship's magazines. Captain Sigsbee's
caution had been well founded.

President Franklin Delano Roosevelt needed a war. He needed the fever
of a major war to mask the symptoms of a still deathly ill economy
struggling back from the Great Depression. Roosevelt wanted a war with
Germany to stop Hitler, but despite several provocations in the
Atlantic, the American people, still struggling with that troublesome
economy, were opposed to any wars.

Roosevelt needed an enemy, and if America would not willingly attack
that enemy, then one would have to be maneuvered into attacking
America, much as Marcus Licinius Crassus has maneuvered Sparticus into
attacking Rome.

The way open to war was created when Japan signed the tripartite
agreement with Italy and Germany, with all parties pledging mutual
defense to each other. Whereas Hitler would never declare war on the
United States no matter the provocation, the means to force Japan to
do so were readily at hand.

The first step was to place oil and steel embargoes on Japan, using
Japan's wars on the Asian mainland as a reason. This forced Japan to
consider seizing the oil and mineral rich regions in Indonesia. With
the European powers militarily exhausted by the war in Europe, the
United States was the only power in the Pacific able to stop Japan
from invading the Dutch East Indies, and by moving the Pacific fleet
from San Diego to Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, Roosevelt made a pre-emptive
strike on that fleet the mandatory first step in any Japanese plan to
extend it's empire into the "southern resource area".

Roosevelt boxed in Japan just as completely as Crassus had boxed in
Sparticus. Japan needed oil. They had to invade Indonesia to get it,
and to do that they had to remove the threat of the American fleet at
Pearl Harbor. There never really was any other course open to them.

To enrage the American people as much as possible, Roosevelt needed
the first overt attack by Japan to be as bloody as possible, appearing
as a sneak attack much as the Japanese had done to the Russians. From
that moment up until the attack on Pearl Harbor itself, Roosevelt and
his associates made sure that the commanders in Hawaii, General Short
and Admiral Kimmel, were kept in the dark as much as possible about
the location of the Japanese fleet and it's intentions, then later
scapegoated for the attack. (Congress recently exonerated both Short
and Kimmel, posthumously restoring them to their former ranks).

But as the Army board had concluded at the time, and subsequent de-
classified documents confirmed, Washington DC knew the attack was
coming, knew exactly where the fleet was, and knew where it was
headed.

On November 29th, Secretary of State Hull showed United Press reporter
Joe Leib a message with the time and place of the attack, and the New
York Times in it's special 12/8/41 Pearl Harbor edition, on page 13,
reported that the time and place of the attack had been known in
advance!

The much repeated claim that the Japanese fleet maintained radio
silence on it's way to Hawaii was a lie. Among other intercepts still
held in the Archives of the NSA is the UNCODED message sent by the
Japanese tanker Shirya stating, "proceeding to a position 30.00 N,
154.20 E. Expect to arrive at that point on 3 December." (near HI)

President Lyndon Johnson wanted a war in Vietnam. He wanted it to help
his friends who owned defense companies to do a little business. He
needed it to get the Pentagon and CIA to quit trying to invade Cuba.
And most of all, he needed a provocation to convince the American
people that there was really "no other choice".

On August 5, 1964, newspapers across America reported "renewed
attacks" against American destroyers operating in Vietnamese waters,
specifically the Gulf of Tonkin. The official story was that North
Vietnamese torpedo boats launched an "unprovoked attack" on the USS
Maddox while it was on "routine patrol".

The truth is that USS Maddox was involved in aggressive intelligence
gathering in coordination with actual attacks by South Vietnam and the
Laotian Air Force against targets in North Vietnam. The truth is also
that there was no attack by torpedo boats against the USS Maddox.
Captain John J. Herrick, the task force commander in the Gulf, cabled
Washington DC that the report was the result of an "over-eager"
sonarman who had picked up the sounds of his own ship's screws and
panicked. But even with this knowledge that the report was false,
Lyndon Johnson went on national TV that night to announce the
commencement of air strikes against North Vietnam, "retaliation" for
an attack that had never occurred.

President George Bush wanted a war in Iraq. Like Crassus, George Bush
is motivated by money. Specifically oil money. But with the OPEC
alliance failing to keep limits on oil production in the Mideast, the
market was being glutted with oil pumped from underneath Iraq, which
sat over roughly 1/3 of the oil reserves of the entire region.

George wanted a war to stop that flow of oil, to keep prices (and
profits) from falling any further than they already had. But like
Roosevelt, he needed the "other side" to make the first move.

Iraq had long been trying to acquire greater access to the Persian
Gulf, and felt limited confined a narrow strip of land along Kuwait's
northern border, which placed Iraqi interests in close proximity with
hostile Iran. George Bush, who had been covertly arming Iraq during
its war with Iran, sent word via Jean Kirkpatrick that the United
States would not intervene if Saddam Hussein grabbed a larger part of
Kuwait. Saddam fell for the bait and invaded.

Of course, Americans were not about to send their sons and daughters
to risk their lives for petroleum products. So George Bush arranged a
hoax, using public relations firm Hill & Knowlton, which has grown
rich on taxpayer money by being most industrious and creative liars!
Hill & Knowlton concocted a monumental fraud in which the daughter of
the Kuwaiti Ambassador to the United States, went on TV pretending to
be a nurse, and related a horror story in which Iraqi troops looted
the incubators from a Kuwaiti hospital, leaving the premature babies
on the cold floor to die. The media, part of the swindle from the
start, never bothered asking why the "nurse" didn't just pick the
babies up and wrap them in blankets or something.

Enraged by the incubator story, Americans supported operation Desert
Storm, which never removed Saddam Hussein from power but which did
take Kuwait's oil off of the market for almost 2 years and limited
Iraq's oil exports to this very day. That our sons and daughters came
home with serious and lingering medical illnesses was apparently not
too great a price to pay for increased oil profits.

Following the victory in Iraq, yet another war appeared to be in the
offering in the mineral rich regions of Bosnia. Yet again, a hoax was
used to create support for military action.

The above photo of Fikret Alic, a Muslim, staring through a barbed
wire fence, was used to "prove" that the Bosnians were running modern
day "Concentration Camps". As the headline of "Belsen 92" indicates,
all possible associations with the Nazi horrors were made to sell the
necessity of sending yet more American troops into someone else's
nation.

But when German Journalists went to Trnopolje, the site of the
supposed Bosnian Concentration Camp. to film a documentary, they
discovered that the photo was a fake! The camp at Trnopolje was not a
concentration camp but a refugee center. Nor was it surrounded by
barbed wire. Careful examination of the original photo revealed that
the photographer had shot the photo through a broken section of fence
surrounding a tool shed. It was the photographer who was on the
inside, shooting out at the refugees.

Once again, Americans had been hoaxed into support of actions they
might otherwise not have agreed with.

While several American Presidents have willingly started wars for
personal purposes, perhaps no President has ever carried it to the
extreme that Bill Clinton has.

Coincident with the expected public statement of Monica Lewinsky
following her testimony, Bill Clinton ordered a cruise missile attack
on Sudan and Afghanistan, claiming to have had irrefutable proof that
bogeyman extraordinaire (and former Afghani ally) Osama Bin Ladin was
creating terrorist chemical weapons there.

Examination of the photos of the debris revealed none of the expected
structures one would find in a laboratory that handled lethal weapons-
grade materials. Assurances from the CIA that they had a positive soil
test for biological weapons fell on their face when it was revealed
that there had been no open soil anywhere near the pre-bombed
facility. Sudan requested that international observers come test the
remains of the factory for any signs of the nerve gas Clinton had
insisted was there. None was found. The Sudanese plant was a harmless
aspirin factory, and the owner has sued for damages.

Later examination of the site hit in Afghanistan revealed it to be a
mosque.

<http://www.accessone.com/~rivero/LIE/fake-mig.gifclick for larger
image

Meanwhile, back in Kosovo, stories about genocide and atrocities were
flooding the media (in time to distract from the Sudanese
embarrassments), just as lurid and sensational and as it turns out
often just as fictional as most of William Randolph Hearst's stories
of atrocities against the Cubans.

Again, the government and the media were hoaxing Americans. The above
photo was shown on all the American networks, claiming to be one of
Slobodan Milosovic's Migs, shot down while attacking civilians. Closer
examination (click on the photo) shows it to be stenciled in English!

Like Germany under Chancellor Hitler, there have been events in our
nation which strike fear into the hearts of the citizens, such as the
New York World Trade Tower bombing, the OK City Federal Building, and
the Olympic Park bomb (nicely timed to divert the media from witnesses
to the TWA 800 shoot down). The media has been very quick to blame
such events on "radicals", "subversives", "vast right wing
conspiracies", and other "enemies in our midst", no different than the
lies used by Cicero and Hitler.

But on closer examination, such "domestic terrorist" events do not
appear to be what they are made out to be. The FBI had an informant
inside the World Trade Tower bombers, Emad Salam, <http:
file://www.accessone.com/~rivero/POLITICS/OK/wtcbomb.html who offered to
sabotage the bomb. The FBI told him "no". The so-called "hot bed" of
white separatism at Elohim City, occasional home to Tim McVeigh in the
weeks prior to the OK City bombing, was founded and is being run by an
FBI informant!

<http://www.accessone.com/~rivero/POLITICS/OK/TRUCK/TRUCK2.gifclick
for larger image

And nobody has ever really explained what this second Ryder truck was
doing in a secret camp half way from Elohim City to Oklahoma City two
weeks before the bombing.

So, here we are today. Like the Romans of Crassus' and Cicero's time,
or the Germans under a newly elected Hitler, we are being warned that
a dangerous enemy threatens us, implacable, invisible, omnipresent,
and invulnerable as long as our government is hamstrung by that silly
old Bill of Rights. Already there have appeared articles debating
whether or not "extraordinary measures" (i.e. torture) are not fully
justified under certain circumstances such as those we are purported
to face.

As was the case in Rome and Germany, the government continues to plead
with the public for an expansion of its power and authority, to "deal
with the crisis".

However, as Casio watch timers are paraded before the cameras, to the
stentorian tones of the talking heads' constant dire warnings, it is
legitimate to question just how real the crises is, and how much is
the result of political machinations by our own leaders.

Are the terrorists really a threat, or just hired actors with bombs
and Casio watches, paid for by Cicero and given brown shirts to wear
by Hitler?

Is terrorism inside the United States really from outside, or is it a
stage managed production, designed to cause Americans to believe they
have no choice but to surrender the Republic and accept the
totalitarian rule of a new emperor, or a new Fuhrer?

Once lost, the Romans never got their Republic back. Once lost, the
Germans never got their Republic back. In both cases, the nation had
to totally collapse before freedom was restored to the people.

Remember that when Crassus tells you that Sparticus approaches.

Remember that when thugs in the streets act in a manner clearly
designed to provoke the public fear.

Remember that when the Reichstagg burns down.





sector (10/02/01; 22:47:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 62852)
@uponroof TKS...The Uncertainty Favors Goldbugs
Uncertainty about what the US military response will be...what our true enemies do about it...what happens on the other fronts [North Korea, Taiwan].

Uncertainty about the remaining US bullion reserves to be sold to keep pog suppressed.

Uncertainty about the depth of the post 911 economic shocks.

Uncertainty about how soon the inevitable inflationary waves will strike the US.

An abundance of uncertainty. Why hold stocks in such times? Unless they are PMs or even better physical.

uponroof (10/2/01; 22:26:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 62851)
sector- timing/ Jewellery and POG
sector-good points. Rescheduling, at the very least, is indicating concern. I guess this judge is not accustomed to receiving drafts from the most powerful men in the world. Perhaps he has a new resolve to seek out actual truth given all the new dynamics of this world. I hope this extra month is something you and GATA can use to your advantage. A lot of evidence being ushered out into the open these days. If anyone can spot something of use, you can.



As for jewellery...

The industry leaders and their front (WGC) are controlled by their bankers.....period.

The day Randall Oliphant, chairman of the WGC Gold Marketing Initiative Steering Committee, does anything to promote POG, will be the day all hell finally breaks loose and Barrick rolls over long like an old prostitute on a new street in a new dress. What a disgusting sham the WGC is.

Speaking of POG, it's under some pressure the last 24 hours. My suspicious mind is thinking an air stike is being coordinated with a 5-10 buck drop, hoping to limit the upside aftermath. If you're a trader, I'm thinking any such drop to the 285 or lower area should be hopped on long immediately.

Can't see how they can avoid the inevitable, but they will try to postpone regardless.

sourdough (10/2/01; 21:54:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 62850)
Asian perspective on currency
Some early lessons from the last three weeks

Avoiding US dollar the safer strategy for hedging Asian balance sheets

By
Larry Wee


IT seems like only yesterday, but three weeks have now passed since the events of Sept 11. Enough time, perhaps, to sort out some preliminary winners and the losers - and to learn some lessons from price action in financial markets.

One initial conclusion is that Asian currency holders are still better off avoiding the US dollar for now.

A first lesson is that pretty much every country in Asia will get hammered badly from the threat of a sharp slowdown - likely now a recession - in the US economy over the next two to three quarters. Sharply weaker Asian numbers such as Japan's Q3 tankan survey this week continue to confirm a grim outlook in the immediate future.


This combines, unhappily, with chronic Asian headaches like overdue bank and corporate restructuring, and a dearth of foreign direct investments as investors head for safer shores. The result is that the Japanese yen and this region's currencies have suffered a relapse versus the US dollar - topped by the rupiah's slide of more than 10 per cent since Sept 11.

Meanwhile, however, a second observation is that the greenback remains out of favour versus favourite alternatives like gold, the Swiss franc, the euro and the sterling pound.

This is mainly because of an underlying fear that the US dollar and US asset markets are still vulnerable to things going awfully wrong - for example, because of a couple of botched attempts on the terrorist campaign front, or yet another attack.

The third conclusion, therefore, must be that even holders of Asian currencies - backed by solid reserves and high domestic savings - such as the yen and Singapore dollar, would benefit from some hedge with higher yielding euros, sterling pounds or Swiss francs on corrective swings. More so if they are already owners of some greenbacks or US dollar assets.

The three have proven the most resilient on the downside even when the US asset markets - and therefore the US dollar - bounce back. Compare the experience of Asian, US and European equity indices over the last three weeks.

From levels on Sept 10, the latest levels of selected benchmark stock indices tell an important story.

Based on levels yesterday afternoon, just about every index in Asia ex-Japan is still registering double-digit losses - ranging from 11.5 per cent for Malaysia's KLCI, to 13.8 per cent for the STI, and 18.6 per cent in the case of Taiwan's weighted index.

The Nikkei, meanwhile, has climbed back above 10,000 to finish almost unchanged from Sept 10, UK's Footsie is down a mild 4.4 per cent, and Germany's Dax 9.4 per cent. Meanwhile, based on Monday's Wall Street close, the Dow is off 8 per cent, and the Nasdaq a sharper 12.7 per cent.

Translate this into currency market terms, and we find that the US dollar is now actually higher than on Sept 10 versus just about every Asian currency, including the yen - but still down about 4 per cent versus the Swiss franc, 1.5 per cent versus the euro, 0.8 per cent versus the UK unit, and a whopping 7 per cent versus gold.

Those with yen and Sing dollar balance sheets would thus have been better off hedging themselves with euros and the UK pound. Versus Sept 10 levels, the greenback was about 0.5 per cent higher versus the yen at 120.80 yen, and about 1.6 per cent better at S$1.7775 yesterday.

In contrast, the euro has risen a bit more than 2 per cent to 110.7 yen, and 3.2 per cent to about S$1.63. Similarly, the pound has risen 1.4 per to test important tops around 178.7 yen, and has advanced 2.5 per cent to S$2.6293.

We are advised of a potentially long and painful US campaign against international terrorism. And there's a very real danger that even if US Fed cuts down to 2 per cent US interest rates (eventually), it will not be reflected by better US macro stats anytime soon. Translation: Nervous and volatile US dollar moves cannot be ruled out in the near term.

But if capital preservation is a top priority, such moves could present opportunities to build long euro and sterling positions versus the yen and Sing - excluding greenbacks altogether for now. Better upside, potentially less downside, if clues from the last three weeks are any reliable indication.

Versus the Sing, watch how well first supports hold up at S$1.6110-30 per euro, and at S$2.6120-40 per sterling pound. In yen terms, watch price behaviour around euro and pound supports of 108.80-109 yen and 176.80-177 yen respectively.



Solomon Weaver (10/2/01; 21:18:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 62849)
October Madness: The Gap Between GAAP and Reported Earnings
http://www.cfo.com/article/1,4616,0|83|AD|5252,00.html
"The earnings reporting period that gets under way in a week or so should be prove mighty interesting.

Clearly, a lot of companies are going to miss their consensus forecasts. But beyond that, this next batch of earnings reports will underscore the true creativity of finance executives.

First, a number of businesses will no doubt explain away their woes with the words ''September 11'' or ''terrorist attacks.'' Some excuses will be legitimate; many won't.

Further, expect to see some fascinating numbers coming out of Silicon Valley — pro forma numbers, to be precise. If only they were.

The fact is, technology companies have been the biggest embracers of pro forma results, which are really only hypothetical numbers. Or, more aptly, they are the numbers that the companies want you to think about — even though those numbers rarely reflect the true health of a company's ongoing operations.

Obviously, pro forma numbers are generally much different than the ones companies must submit to the Securities and Exchange Commission. Those results, which must be calculated under Generally Accepted Accounting Principles, are frequently buried in corporate press releases.

If you don't think there's a disparity between pro forma results and GAAP results, chew on this: The Associated Press did an in-depth analysis of earnings reports by the 100 largest technology companies in northern California. The wire service calculated that, under GAAP standards, the 100 companies have reported combined losses of around $71 billion. Using pro forma figures, however, these same companies reported a tidy profit of $10 billion."

. . . . . . . . . .

Real profits vs. paper profits. POS



nickel62 (10/2/01; 21:00:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 62848)
Hello Pandagold.
I was warmed to see you post again. I have myself been gone for a long time and miss when I return the brillance of Aristotle and Oro and people like yourself. Thanks for making a comment..It is strange times and all of us are rethinking our successes and our hopes..Maybe the river is working for us now. I realized for the first time in five years my performance is much better than any one I know..it is funny after so many years as a portfolio manager to be happy about such subdued performance when all it really is is staying in place...gold get you some..

mhchuck (10/2/01; 20:35:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 62847)
Cavan Man
The Euro must not repeat the mistakes of it's predecessor to gain credibility in my eyes. I think Trail Guide has said something to the effect that it would take another fifty years for the Euro to get to where the dollar is now. That just perpetuates a game that will do nothing to improve the world your daughters are going to live in my opinion.

I find it incomprehensible that some gold advocates believe that gold is "only a hedge," thereby acceding to a system that has put the world on the brink of economic collapse. This latest massive infusion of liquidity is yet another temporary fix. If this keeps up, the kids of today are going to need two million dollars (or twelve Euros?) to buy an average home. I guess that's nothing to fret about if interest rates are set at zero and remain there, in addition to the minimum wage being raised to $250 an hour. Hell, it's going to my house at two million dollars that they "wished" they could buy, so why am I griping?

"The earth belongs to the living not the dead.….we may consider each generation as a distinct nation, with a right to bind themselves, but not the succeeding generation. The modern theory of the perpetuation of debt has drenched the earth with blood, and crushed its inhabitants under burdens ever accumulating."

Thomas Jefferson.

After President Bush hunts down the terrorists, let's hunt down the terrorist's of the gold market and those whose polices have drenched the earth with blood.

Best Regards,

mhchuck


Mr Gresham (10/2/01; 19:53:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 62846)
Buying and Selling Patriotism
http://www.bearforum.com/cgi-perl/bbs.pl?read=187297
Civil Bear says it all here.

Chris Powell (10/2/01; 19:46:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 62845)
Howe case delayed; gold industry goes ga-ga over mere jewellery
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/899
If only they put even a tiny fraction of this
kind of promotional money into exposing the
gold price suppression scheme....

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/899


To subscribe to GATA's dispatches
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you don't have to go look for them,
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sector (10/2/01; 19:23:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 62844)
@escapethematrix About the Howe/BIS Delay
There are reasons for optimism. First the judge moved the Oct 9th hearing time from 3:30 PM to 2:30PM. Now he adds a month and schedules the hearing for 2PM on a Monday thus giving a full afternoon for arguments.

Analyzing the sequence of court actions one can reasonably conclude that the judge sees more in this case than can be handled by a summary dismissal. He needs more time to assess the issues. The defendants are now exposed to another month of gold market rigors. They must continue to manipulate the price of gold hoping that any leaks in their operations stay plugged...that World gold demand [in a wartime environment] can be managed.

Along those lines the, IMF earmarked gold shipments for July fell to zero from a 40 tonne per month clip since last September. Have the cabal run out? Time will tell.

One thing is certain -- the price of gold won't go down.



Cavan Man (10/2/01; 17:47:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 62843)
mhchuck
Hi. It's time. All this text relating to the Euro and political will etc. requires not so much a resolution but, "in your face" progress in the form of an easily recognizable sign if you will. If not now then, never. Can we begin all over again with easy money, borrow and spend, strong dollar and massive, cheap imports to keep inflation low etc.? My bet is no, heck no. It is October and inflation on a large scale beckons. take care.....CM

sourdough (10/2/01; 17:46:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 62842)
Hysteria???
eBalita ® ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

October 3, 2001

Peso:Dollar Rate : 51.600 - $1
Previously :P51.40=$1

THOUSANDS HIT BY FLU VIRUS IN METRO
Over a thousand students have contracted influenza forcing some schools in Metro Manila to suspend classes on Tuesday, officials said.

In the 3 p.m. report by the National Disaster Coordinating Council (NDCC), a total of 1,041students from 10 schools, most of them located in the eastern section of Metro Manila, have absented themselves after contracting the flu.

Saint Paul's College in Pasig City reported the highest number of students affected, forcing school officials to suspend classes until Monday.

NDCC also reported that La Salle Greenhills in Mandaluyong reported 241 cases; Xavier School in San Juan, 41; Poveda Learning Center in Mandaluyong, 100; Saint Paul's College in Pasig City, 500; Immaculate Concepcion Academy in San Juan, 17; Dominican College, San Juan, 41 and Saint Bridgett in Quezon City, 24.

Initial reports also showed that San Agustin School in Makati City reported eight cases, while Claret School in Quezon City had nine and Don Bosco Technical Institute, 10.

Saint Paul school officials immediately ordered the suspension of classes and announced a thorough clean up and fumigation of the premises.

Health Secretary Manuel Dayrit said initial findings indicated that the victims contracted "Influenza type A strain H1N1."

"This is a common Influenza virus which has existed for many years in the country," Dayrit said.

"Based on our own calculations, [there] seems to be an steep increase based on the percentages of children that appears to have taken ill," he added.

Dayrit said authorities will continue their investigation and collect throat-swabs from affected students to firmly confirm the causative strain of influenza.

Dayrit downplayed the possibility of influenza epidemic and said the number of reported cases merely reflect the present trend.

"The number of students who have been infected is within the range consistent with the Influenza season," he said.

Epidemiologist Eric Tayag of the Department of Health, however, admitted that the number of reported cases were quite "unusual."

"This is very unusual, but if that should be the case, then we will have to declare an influenza outbreak and take precautionary measures," he said.

Tayag explained that the months of September and October are considered the twilight stages of the influenza season. "We have given enough information to the public, but this was apparently overtaken by the World Trade Center [incidents] in the United States," Tayag added.

Even as Palace officials downplayed reports of a possible influenza outbreak, President Arroyo ordered Dayrit to make a detailed progress report.

Presidential Spokesman Rigoberto Tiglao and National Security Adviser Roilo Golez said reports of influenza outbreak and possible chemical warfare in Metro Manila are "too hysterical."

Golez earlier downplayed the reports and even blamed media for reporting a possible epidemic in the schools.

"Let us remain calm here. We have not received any report from hospitals of any kid taken there for possible illness. Apparently, all of the private schools have been affected and also public schools. There is a possibility that this is a result of passed-on information," he said.

Golez claimed that the reports were simply "amplified," blaming the ABS-CBN News Channel (ANC) for reporting the number of victims. He said some text messages have been quoting ANC reports.

Golez even suggested for a media blackout until authorities finally determine the cause of the supposed influenza outbreak.

Meanwhile, United States Embassy officials said that they have been checking the reported outbreak of influenza in several schools in eastern Metro Manila.

Embassy telephone lines were jammed with calls from their nationals, officials who asked not to be named said.

Other diplomatic missions are also looking into the reports. They have appealed to their nationals to remain calm.

MILITARY UNCOVERS PLANS FOR METRO MANILA BOMBING
In retaliation to a US attack on Afghanistan, terrorists linked to Osama bin Laden will be unleashed to bomb strategic points in Metro Manila and place the population under a state of fear and confusion, a military intelligence official said yesterday.

At the same time, military intelligence has reported that the brother of Bin Laden's Filipino right-hand man has sneaked into the country to help the saboteurs make the bombs that would be used to sow terror in the metropolis.

Speaking on condition of anonymity, the intelligence official said "raw reports" from various sources showed that the terrorists are in safe houses in different parts of Metro Manila awaiting the order to strike. (Parang bigla yatang gumaling ang 'intelligence gathering' ng AFP! Halos talo pa ang CIA at FBI sa mga scoop re: terrorism. Don't you get the feeling na parang gusto lang sumali sa uso? Wag naman sana. -m)

"We received information that they are just awaiting actions that would be taken by the US," he said.

But the intelligence official said police and military officials are taking the report seriously as the government would not want to be caught flat-footed in case of any emergency.

"We (intelligence community) are closely monitoring the situation although these reports are still considered raw information, but we're not taking chances," the official said.
Intelligence reports said Talib, brother of a certain Amuran, who is reportedly a former Abu Sayyaf member, is helping the Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF) prepare and assemble bombs.

"Around 800 sympathizers of the Abu Sayyaf have committed themselves to joining a wave of terrorist bombings in Metro Manila for the next two months," intelligence reports said.

Intelligence reports said Kunting Ashraf, alias Abu Khalid, who is a student of Amuran, has also arrived in Metro Manila, along with five Abu Sayyaf and two MILF members for a still unknown mission.

The Abu Sayyaf has a tactical alliance with disgruntled members of the MILF and the Moro National Liberation Front (MNLF), intelligence reports added.

The intelligence official said authorities are looking into reports that some non-government organizations, set up by Bin Laden's brother-in-law Mohammed Jamal Khalifa in the early 1990s, are conduits for foreign funds for the Abu Sayyaf.

Army officials said Bin Laden's al-Qaeda group continues to finance the Abu Sayyaf based on information given by captured Abu Sayyaf leaders Nadzmie Sabdullah and Jimmy Theng.

Armed Forces chief Gen. Diomedio Villanueva said communications between the Abu Sayyaf and al-Qaeda have waned but remain open

BR549 (10/2/01; 17:45:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 62841)
The removal of Freedoms takes an instant to lose and sometimes an eternity to recover
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,35605,00.html
"Attorney General John Ashcroft has asked Congress for authority to investigate and detain individuals suspected of involvement in terrorist activities. The bill also seeks, among other things to:

• Allow law enforcement authorities to obtain nationwide "pen register" and "trap and trace" orders that permit them to learn the incoming or outgoing phone numbers from a particular telephone.

• Extend the amount of time a court order can be used to conduct physical searches from 45 to 90 days and electronic surveillance from 90 days to one year.

• Place no limit on the length of time an alien suspected of terrorism can be detained without filing charges.

• Extend the roaming wire tap authority already in existence to multiple forms of communications, including the Internet.

• Allow authorities to use intelligence information from foreign sources that would have been illegally obtained under U.S. constitutional provisions."



This is a tough one! Not for the rights of the terrorists, they have none, but for the rest of us.

BR549

mhchuck (10/02/01; 17:00:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 62840)
@Cavan Man

Hi Cavan Man,

A true competitor would have to flex its golden muscles.
Is 15% muscle to body fat enough?

mhchuck

slingshot (10/02/01; 16:48:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 62839)
MhChuck Msg# 62833
Friends
Talk about God and your friends leave the area.
Talk about Guns and your going to kill someone
Talk about Gold and you become a Nut
Talk about Guts and now your a troublemaker

Who needs them!
But they sure as hell come running to you for advice when they are in trouble.
Slingshot

slingshot (10/2/01; 16:41:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 62838)
PandaGold
Hello PandaGold,
Good to here from you again.
Slingshot

MarkeTalk (10/2/01; 16:33:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 62837)
Thanks, Strad Master
RE: Ed Dames, Art Bell, etc.
Thank you, dear Sir, for informing me of the track record of these two gentlemen. I remember the Heaven's Gate cult from the newspapers but did not know that Ed Dames was the catalyst behind their ill-informed decisions to commit suicide. I can understand your feeling about being secure from terrorist attack if Ed Dames had predicted it. But I believe I read or heard that the FBI and other law enforcement people still consider Los Angeles to be a viable target.

Pandagold (10/2/01; 16:31:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 62836)
It is the best of times and the worst of times

Well, it seems a long time since I last contributed to this forum. I've glanced in once or twice, as I do with other open portals where there are like minds - and quite a few unlike ones, but where a subject close to my heart is the main topic of conversation round the fireside - albeit a metaphorical one. Hope you don't mind if I drop in for a couple of minutes.

I saw the competition, and read one or two very interesting entries. The thread title got me thinking - not too deeply as I have not the time; too busy making money in the market. Anyone not is losing out. Sure gold is manipulated, what isn't these days. But sooner or later, the pattern becomes more or less predictable if you stop listening to the media pundits and newscasters, and focus on what the market is doing and telling you.

Do you remember that story "Wind in the Willows" (one of my favourites); when Ratty told Mole when he was proudly pontificating about the river, his river, and how the river would speak to him? This was because he was focused on something that held an important place in his life, and from which he derived much pleasure.

The market, to me is like a great river twisting and turning as it seeks its level and the least line of resistance. Sometimes swollen and flowing fast, at other times so low you can see the bottom and there's barely a trickle. But always interesting, and there is always a freshness, and excitement about it. And if you watch it, and listen carefully, I guarantee, it will speak to you.

I know the competition is over, and this is not, nor was ever, intended as an entry
It is meant purely as a thought to share.

Has there been change? Yes, there has been change, and yet there's been no change. I have adapted a Dickensian paradox "It was the best of times, and the worst of times" (Tale of Two Cities).

To illustrate, I quote "Let the influx of money be ever so great, if there is no confidence, property will sink in value. The circulation of confidence is better than the circulation of money" (James Madison 1751-1826)

I need add little to that. You all, or at least most, are astute enough to understand what that means.

As we know, it was all happening before September 11th. It is merely now being more emphasised and intensified, because there is something to blame.

All Life, all history, is one of change, adapt, and a repetition of man's folly in how he does so. Change is an ongoing process, in ourselves and what is around us. As Marcus Auralius said 2000 years ago - "It is not what happens to us, but how we relate, and react, to what happens that is important".

Where does gold fit into the picture? I said in many of my earlier posts that gold's primary role at present (I said primary, not only) is psychological. While gold is restrained, there is no panic. An orderly evacuation is enabled.

When something is restrained, that means there is a strain. All you have to do is make your way to the lifeboat in a calm manner, and steady nerve, but keep an eye on that 'strain' - everything has a breaking point, eventually.

Good luck in all your endeavours, and don't miss out by letting the gloom that is around blind your vision.

escapethematrix (10/2/01; 16:09:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 62835)
October 2, 2001. Court Hearing Rescheduled to November 5, 2001
http://www.goldensextant.com/commentary19.html#anchor3931
On October 1, 2001, Judge Lindsay entered the following SCHEDULING ORDER:
The clerk has scheduled for hearing, on Tuesday, October 9, 2001, the several motions to dismiss this action. Because of the number of such motions and the myriad issues they raise, I will require more time to study the parties' submissions. Accordingly, the hearing in this matter is rescheduled to Monday, November 5, 2001, at 2:00 p.m. SO ORDERED.
/s/ Reginald C. Lindsay, United States District Judge

Justice delayed....Hopefully not to be denied.


Cavan Man (10/2/01; 16:08:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 62834)
mhchuck
The casualty is the dollar. The dollar has competition.

mhchuck (10/2/01; 15:54:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 62833)
A View from the other side.

"Personal Finance"……. I'm not certain, but I read somewhere that they have 200,000 subscribers including myself. (No, I don't buy stocks-just like to read.) Stephen Leeb's forecasts have been correct more often than not. My E-mail to him is included at the end of the post.

From the Desk of: STEPHEN LEEB, editor of Personal Finance, Oct 19th.

Wall Street came back yesterday, and what a return. For all the optimistic talk on radio and TV previous to the opening about everyone's patriotic duty to buy, the first day of trading after a 4-day hiatus proved again that the market is efficient, not sentimental.

The stock and bond markets reflect our economy and that's wholly different than representing the American collective consciousness about the terrorist attacks in New York and Washington, DC. We knew we were in a slowdown before 11 September and now that slowdown has been exacerbated by those terrible events.

That's why the Federal Reserve cut rates a half point before the market opened, the government has approved a $40 billion aid package for starters and are looking into a $12.5 billion check for the ailing airline industry. All this showed up before trading opened Monday morning.

And frankly, the market held up pretty well considering. On the most fundamental level-the sheer ability to trade-yesterday was a roaring success. It was the busiest day in NYSE history and everything went off with nary a hitch just four days after a crushing blow was dealt to the financial center of the financial capital of the world. And in percentage terms, the loss didn't even make it into the top 10.

As far as where we go from here, expect the market to have a downside bias for the next month to month and a half. Then the liquidity that the Federal Reserve and the federal government have added to the system will start to percolate through the economy.

You can already see the anticipation for re-energized economic growth in the bond market. Rates on the short-term end are falling and long-term rates are taking off. That reflects two things: People are scared and parking their money in the safest investments around (US short-term paper); and with all this money being poured into the economy, inflation is just a matter of time.

I expect by year-end stocks will be in an uptrend, as recovery seems more a possibility than it does here.

Two things to bear in mind throughout this ordeal:

1.)*******Any problem that can be solved with money is no fundamental problem. If we can spend or grow our way out of this, which I'm convinced we can, this is a short-term problem for long-term investors. And we'll soon have a historic buying opportunity.******* End. (Stars are my emphasis)

2.) We're much safer now than we were on 10 September. The acts last Tuesday were unimaginable but so was an enemy like this. Two thousand years ago Sun Tzu said, "Hold your enemies closer than your friends." It's always better
to know your enemy, so you can defeat him. We're on that path now, albeit at a horrific price.

From the desk of Personal Finance Editor Stephen Leeb, Oct 28th.

It's the worst quarterly point loss on the Dow in history. Fortress America has been breeched. More than 100,000 jobs are gone from the economy is two weeks. Military reserves are patrolling airports and the nation's air space.

And I'm very optimistic.

I know it sounds insane and I should be wringing my hands over biological warfare, a growing global economic maelstrom, and a fundamental shift in our well-worn way of life. That would be easy.

But you have to look beyond all these emotional trigger points. The markets deal with real numbers and real value. They're rational-at least most of the time.

Coming out of such extreme circumstances it's only taken a couple of trading weeks to start to see stability comeback to stocks and bonds. The speculative fervor has died down and investors are looking at earnings reports and housing starts and confidence numbers again. Most aren't as horrible as the recent days on the Dow would have us believe.

********I've always said that a problem that can be solved with money isn't that big a problem. And while the terrorists may have accelerated our recessionary trajectory I wouldn't give them an ounce of credit for putting it in motion. They may have bruised our collective psyche but the market is simply struggling through part of an economic cycle. ********** End. (Stars are my emphasis)


My E-mail to Stephen Leeb sent today.

Hi Stephen,

I have been a subscriber for several years and have noted for well over a year now that you have been heralding more inflation. The Tragedy on Sept 11 has caused the FED, as you say, to add even more stimulus, an amount that is possibly historic in nature. My Question is, "Why do you only rarely mention gold, or gold stocks in your commentary?" Since inflationary monetary policy has within it the seeds of its own destruction, this stimulus you speak of can only be another temporary "fix." I think you should educate your readers more on the nature of money and not just be a perpetual bull tagging along with a monetary system that will ultimately collapse the world economy.

Best Regards,

Chuck

Market bulls, Politicians, Media, The "Something for nothing crowd," (About 99.99% of the population) tacitly understand that Gold and it's advocates are their mortal enemy. Standing against their illogic and dishonesty has made me stronger. There is a downside however: I don't have any friends. (Boo Hoo!)

Gold: It's more than you think.

Mhchuck


BR549 (10/2/01; 15:47:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 62832)
What happens when you dial 911 and nobody answers?
Slingshot---

I love it!

"Good" gold coins will outpace "good" gold future's and spot prices in its accelerated future value just as all physical gold will outpace all kinds of paper in future paper values. If not, why are some pre-1933's more valuable now?

Regards,

BR549

slingshot (10/2/01; 15:11:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 62831)
Americans Arming Themselves, ABC NEWS
Well ABC News has got that right! Went to the Gun Shop to get ready for Blackpowder season and the shelves were somewhat bare. You name it, it was selling.

Have the basics? God, Guns, Guts and Gold.

The article is at World Net Daily. Guess there is enough bad news to make any Goldbugs Head spin right off his shoulders.

Things are getting alittle nervous in the USA.
And the Talking Heads sing, Don't Worry, Be Happy.
Slingshot



Usul (10/2/01; 15:00:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 62830)
Gold Industry Plans US$200 Million Gold Marketing Initiative
http://www.stockhouse.com/news/news.asp?tick=ABX&newsid=922456
"With the support of gold producers from across the world, small and large, we intend to launch this campaign in the spring of 2002," said Randall Oliphant, Chairman of the Gold Marketing Initiative Steering Committee and President and Chief Executive Officer of Barrick Gold Corporation."


Usul (10/2/01; 14:56:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 62829)
The truth about gloom and doom
http://news.excite.com/news/cbsmw/011002/12/stwatch
"Martin Weiss of "The Safe Money Report" has been preaching about the bubble for years. In the wake of last month's terrorist attacks, he stepped up his bearish attitude, saying, "Right now, most Americans have no cash." Weiss says he talked recently to automobile dealers in Palm Beach County, Florida. "Even though GM (GM) and Ford (F) are offering zero-percent financing for new cars, the dealers are getting no takers. None. Zilch." The Weiss advice: Buy U.S. Treasury bills directly from the government and sell almost all of your stocks, except for gold-mining companies."

One might also consider buying physical gold and taking delivery- the basis for this still seems to escape practically all people of "mainstream" thought. See earlier comments on leverage.


Mr Gresham (10/2/01; 14:56:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 62828)
Usul
http://www.columbia.edu/~ram15/grash.html
...including Mundell's essay on Gresham's Law, which is still beyond me to comment well upon. Oh, for a week to spend in the HOF! Aristotle is missed...

My hierarchy had to do with tangibility in a time of banking crisis, when fractional reserves proved inadequate to meet many "promises to pay." So, I would put PMs first, trade goods second, small denomination currency next, paper currency of any denomination (This is the cut-off point for ANY tangibility -- here we go digital, or at least to "paper" holdings;) ), demand deposits, debt paper, equity paper, and finally, any of what are now called derivatives on the above.

I expected (expect?) that at some cut-off point, government/Fed will attempt to placate demand deposit holders with long-term government paper, to buy time for system recovery (or just for favored parties to escape under cover.) Future tax revenues are an unknown, but have a history of compelling some faith in eventual repayment, so these will be thrown into the breach, and eventually discounted by the market, of course.

It is not whether something "circulates" as "currency" or not; EVERYTHING economic is for sale, or trade, at a price. Everyone will make his or her own estimations as to relative values.

Paper fiat currency now and always rests upon the expectation that others will accept it, and in a time of collapse, it will be heavily discounted from its prior valuations. Those valuations may plunge suddenly, or slowly, or zigzag up and down (Weimar, Confederacy, Continentals).

We are always surveying the views of others toward the acceptability of paper, and, should paper be questioned in its value, that "reading the public mood" will become a major daily activity.

Perhaps we confuse ourselves with the TWO uses of the word "Paper"? Paper currency in hand is at least not trapped in a paper "promise to pay" by a financial institution under siege. It is subject only to your neighbors' subsequent willingness to accept it as against other means of payment.

Perhaps the definition of "good" vs. "bad" money is any tradable medium that is either rising or falling in public estimation at that time and over the usable time horizon held by the viewer?

Gresham might say that people will try to trade out of the falling medium before it loses more value, while holding the appreciating one. The market will adjust to their differing views. Those who act on the more accurate views will preserve and grow capital.

His Law also considers the effects of government support or diktat affecting the market for money, saying that people will arbitrage around that as able in order to protect their own purchasing power.

Usul (10/2/01; 14:47:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 62827)
Telecom sector pooh-poohs Fed cut
http://news.excite.com/news/cbsmw/011002/14/sector_telecom
"The Fed's expected move -- reducing both the fed funds and discount rates by another 50 basis points, the ninth cut this year -- seemed to have been discounted by the market, with telecom shares initially selling off on the news before stabilizing"


Usul (10/2/01; 14:45:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 62826)
Corporate bad news keeps pouring in following Sept 11
http://news.excite.com/news/r/011002/15/attack-earnings
"The spate of warnings have emanated from every sector and appear to be spreading further through the economy every day"


Usul (10/2/01; 14:41:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 62825)
Is economy facing a blip or a bump?
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/today/oct02/Businesstel/facingablip.shtml
"After the [events of] September 11 the economic scene has changed. Outside the defence related industries, the new environment can only be described as less secure. That may be an understatement."


Usul (10/2/01; 14:36:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 62824)
Duke Realty is braced for slowdown
http://www.newsobserver.com/tuesday/front/Business/Story/825469p-816984c.html
"Clearly the whole of corporate America stopped running [and] some people are still stopped," he said. "We had a number of deals that were very close to signing that have gone away now"

Usul (10/2/01; 14:33:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 62823)
British manufacturing worse off than in last recession
http://www.economictimes.com/today/03worl01.htm
"UK manufacturers could shed 300,000 jobs

BRITISH manufacturers are suffering worse conditions than in the country's last recession a decade ago and expect to shed more than 300,000 jobs this year and next, the Engineering Employers' Federation said on Tuesday..."



escapethematrix (10/2/01; 12:49:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 62822)
U.K.'s Blair Says U.K. Should Join Euro, If Ready
http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?mnu=news&ptitle=Currency%20Europe&tp=ad_uknews&T=news_storypage99.ht&ad=euro_currency&s=AO7n5iBKLVS5LLidz
Snippet:

Brighton, England, Oct. 2 (Bloomberg) -- Britain should have the courage to join the euro in the current five-year parliament if the government's economic goals are achieved, Prime Minister Tony Blair said.
``We should only be part of the single currency if the economic conditions are met,'' Blair told Labour activists in Brighton, England. ``If met in this parliament, we should have the courage of our argument to ask the British people for their consent'' in a referendum


escapethematrix (10/2/01; 12:40:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 62821)
PRESIDENT PUTIN: RUSSIA WILL BUILD ITS ECONOMIC RELATIONS WITH EUROPEAN NATIONS IN LINE WITH INTEGRATED EUROPE'S INTEREST
http://english.pravda.ru/economics/2001/10/02/16876.html
Russia is going to build its economic relations with European nations in line with the interests of an integrated Europe, Russian President Vladimir Putin said Tuesday as he met with representatives of the Belgian business circles in Brussels.
At the Russia-EU summit in Moscow this past May, the European Union came out with an initiative to create a common European economic zone that would incorporate Russia, the President recalled. "We are certain that such an approach will promote deeper cooperation between Russia and the EU," he said.
Putin also pointed out that Russia hails the spread of Euro-denominated contract payments between Russian and European companies, with Europe accounting for over 40 percent of Russian foreign trade. The President assured his audience that the Russian government will promote and create conditions for broader cooperation with Belgium and the rest of Europe.


BR549 (10/2/01; 12:40:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 62820)
National ID Cards
Belgian (msg#: 62816) ---"One example : Since birth, I do have an ID-cart that has been upgraded (sophisticated) already many times. We never felt this as a threat or whatsoever. And I can't come up with one example where this complete personal identification has ever been abused. "

How do you know? Did you ask the person that is constantly monitoring your ID card if you were good today?

Do you believe in the right to privacy? Do you believe in the notion that since I have not done anything wrong, then I have nothing to hide so why not a national ID card? Do you believe in freedom or just limited freedom? Is it OK if the government tracks your whereabouts constantly? Why not, you haven't done anything wrong have you? The statement that carrying a national is no threat is OK for you as long as your agree with everything your government is doing. But what if you don't? What happens when you change your mind?

Why an ID card? Why not just implant a computer under your skin?

BR549


Netking (10/02/01; 12:29:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 62819)
@Belgian - ID cards
http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,47127,00.html
Your future ID card?(that is before the "mark" on ones right hand or forehead) . . . . as the article says; "You never leave home without it" . . . but I'm sure they plagiarized that from somewhere<grin>.

BR549 (10/02/01; 12:28:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 62818)
In 1558, Sir Thomas Gresham got it wrong then and others have it wrong now
"Perhaps a short lesson is in order for those new to this realm of thought. In 1558, Sir Thomas Gresham made his observation that whenever there was latitude in tendering payment (as could be seen in the major medieval cities where coins from many lands came together in the course of trade--as we covered in the case of Amsterdam,) inevitably the money of poorest quality was offered while the better money was retained. In describing the circulation of currency, Gresham's law says that bad money drives out good. (The inferior money circulates, while money of superior quality is held.) In our new system herein described, paper currency will circulate while Gold money will be saved."

Poppycock! There is no "good" or "bad" money. If gold coins are circulating in mass quantities as currency, then they would be spent along with all other currencies. There is no such thing as "inferior" money. There are however hoarders and "collectors" and there always will be. I saw a $1,000 FRN bill for sale on TV for $3,800+. Was this bad money in the 30's when it was printed? Is it bad money now? Neither, its value is, it is a collectible.

Similarly, I doubt that rare coins would circulate long because of savings and hoarding. Are they the same? Savings is generally thought of by classical economic theory as being healthy for the economy and hoarding is not. Healthy economies thrive on rapid non-inflationary economic flows. That's why the media is trying its hardest to get you to spend your hoarded money now. Take a cruise, fly on an airplane, buy that TV that you have always wanted, do it now.........

When economies contract, then available goods and services increase, supply outpaces demand, people become afraid of the future, then hoard rather than spend, and the economy slows down and sometimes even stops. If citizens hoard gold, then gold becomes wealth. If citizens hoard currencies, then deflation occurs, then recession, then depression.

Collectibles, especially gold coins, will never circulate as money because of hoarding. If gold coins are mass produced and pegged at a real value (as opposed to say the $50/US$ American Eagle), then a certain amount will circulate and a certain amount will always be hoarded by collectors. Russia's new coin is intended to extract FRN's from underneath their citizen's mattresses. Is the hoarded FRN in Russia bad money? Does the monopoly money from the originally produced board games circulate? If a deflation hits the world and gold drops to $10/US$oz. would American Eagles circulate?

The difference between savings and hoarding is just a matter of degree. In uncertain economic times we save currencies to cover short term needs AND hoard gold, food, water, .........

BR549

nickel62 (10/2/01; 11:53:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 62817)
Belgian I completely agree...
I personally have little problem with a national security card. That was not the reason for my posting of part of Mr. Chapman's International Forcaster. It doesn't happen to concern me that much or at least not as much as some of the other manipulation of market issues that the article raises. I cut much of the report to keep it focused on what I thought were interesting insights and inadvertantly left in the concern that many of the civil libertarians are feeling currently with an identity card.

Belgian (10/2/01; 11:43:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 62816)
@ Nickel 62 # 62813
Sir,
This week-end, I dived into that NWO-thing on the web.
Absolute dominance by an elite is as old as the earth-crust.
It is part of the succes that negative doom and gloom is generating so easely, by the general public. I'm not having any sleepless nights on this temporary succes-story.

One example : Since birth, I do have an ID-cart that has been upgraded (sophisticated) already many times. We never felt this as a threat or whatsoever. And I can't come up with one example where this complete personal identification has ever been abused. So let us have some salt with this type of projections that have a very strong tendency to exaggerate and divert the serious attention of the factions, where there is manipulation and/or abuse.

Usul (10/2/01; 11:14:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 62815)
Greetings, Mr Gresham!
http://www.usagold.com/halldiscussion.html
There is indeed a worthy discussion in these halls that mentions the law of your namesake. (link)

Gresham's Law
http://wcu.edu/~mulligan/gresham.html

Let's assume that derivatives are worse "money" than credit money- will they drive out everything, including cash and checking accounts? How can we obtain our groceries with derivatives? A disturbing thought.


nickel62 (10/2/01; 11:07:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 62814)
This piece and the prior post are from "Chapman's International Forcaster"
GOLD, SILVER, PLATINUM, PALLADIUM AND DIAMONDS

On Wednesday, 9/26/01 four Swiss and hedge fund sellers turned buyers. Goldman Sachs tried its best to bury prices. Gold is over $290 an ounce and things are heating up again. The Aussie dollar creeps lower and the hedged gold producers are in big trouble. A break below A$0.48 would send gold flying as hedgers covered their shorts. Producers worldwide have written calls and with gold clearing $290 they have to buy them in, in the spot market.

Gold Fields says a decline in global gold supply is looming. It will be here in 2-3 years. John Reade of UBS Paine Webber has put NEM on is focus list. That is the first thing positive they've said about gold shares in 10 years. The banks that lent gold have to be very nervous.

Gold continues to inch its way upward. Open interest, the number of contracts in the market, has risen more than 12,000 to 129,840 contracts. Every night it's up all over the world and when it trades in New York and Chicago it is bashed. Technically gold is firm to strong. Recent share upgrades and initial coverage by brokerage houses is adding an air of respectability again to the gold market.

As the gold cartel acts each and every day to knock the price of gold down it is assisted by the world media, including the WSJ, Barrons and the Financial Times, among others. The Russians, Indians and others can't buy it fast enough. Even gold bullion coins are at an 8-10% premium, the demand is so great.

The Swiss National Bank will sell another 283 tons of gold through Sept. 2002. They still have 980 tons left to sell from an earmarked 1,300 tons. It fits within the Washington Agreement. Now you can see why Alan Greenspan was at the BIS in Basel last week. This is why Alan Greenspan and Robert Rubin are having secret meetings with Congress. All of Washington knows what is going on and every politician knows if the gold manipulation scam is exposed the whole financial system is coming down. That is why they won't pursue an investigation. It doesn't make any difference, because by June the whole conspiracy will come unraveled. Long-time gold bear, Andy Smith of Mitsui Global Precious Metals, says, "He is looking for a very large, probably delayed but possible sustained rise in gold prices."



nickel62 (10/2/01; 10:59:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 62813)
The following is powerful stuff..not sure what to say about his insights but they ring true to me..
U.S. MARKETS


All the terrorist attacks in the world and all the wars are not going to cover up what the elitists have done. They have pulled the biggest stock scam in history. They have created the biggest financial bubbles in history. Who are they? They are Alan Greenspan and the Fed, the FOMC, the major investment banks and brokerage houses, the media, particularly CNBC, our government, full of kept disgraces to humanity, and the secret organizations to which they all belong. US markets have now lost over $10 trillion and we just began stage 2 of a 3-stage collapse. The markets were deliberately taken up to enrich the elitists’, giving them even more power and we can promise you they are short on the way down. The goal is the financial rape of the American public, depression and war and from this they can synthesize a New World Order. The creation of a giant gambling casino was created to draw the suckers, naive Americans, into what they thought was a never-ending game called, prosperity. Once they had 55% of the public hooked they pulled the rug from beneath their feet and forced the market to collapse. The next step was the terrorist incident that was to cover the collapse of the market. We began writing about this possibility in April of 2000, when we predicted the collapse of world stock markets. There are no coincidences. The elitists have used the same formula in many ways to keep mankind subjected for the past 1,000 years. Never do you hear anything or see anything in the US media regarding the elitists’ manipulation of the gold market. The bozos paraded across CNBC everyday and quoted in press and financial publications won't even admit we are in a bear market. They are too busy appealing to the patriotism of decent Americans so they can relieve them of more of their assets and then send their children off to make-believe wars to have them slaughtered and returned home in body bags. Americans, you are being deceived by your leadership in government and business. Two years from now we'll be in a contrived depression with several wars raging simultaneously. You will be stripped of your constitutional rights and the new Homeguard will strip you of your weapons. Americans just keep doing what you are doing and we'll guarantee your slavery. You just don't get it. How can 98.2% of market experts be so wrong about the market? This is not a coincidence. Remember the market had been going down for 16 months and a few experts discovered there was anything really wrong. You have been had, you are in denial and you are demoralized. You are frozen in the headlights. Get out of the market while you still have some assets left. If you are not a trader in commodities or indexes or in precious metals stocks, get out, losses or no losses. God is not going to keep our freedom for us; we have to defend it and our assets and families ourselves. The market itself is nowhere near capitulation. The investment public, who should have never been in the market in the first place, because it wasn't suitable, has now been distracted by the patriotic show. We'll stick together and be good Americans while Wall Street walks off with our assets. The mainline entertainers put on their shows and likewise our politicians and the investors and the public are lulled into a stupor. The elitists know exactly what you are going to do before you do it. You are going into a cocoon disturbed with your stock market losses and stop consuming. As you get laid off you won't be able to pay your mortgage and debts and two of the last three bubbles will be broken. The real estate and debt bubbles. You are very predictable. Your leaders know what you'll do and that is why they don't want to be blamed for your stock market losses. They are going to save you from those mad Muslim fundamentalists. These are the same people who are saving you from higher gold prices by selling 87% of America's gold reserves, while you slept. You had best be vigilant or you'll lose everything, even perhaps your life.

The US is busy lining up a successor to the Taliban to rule Afghanistan. He is Afghanistan's former king, Mohammad Zahir Shah, who has met with the UN in Rome. He is 87 and has lived in Rome since his ouster in 1973.

The New York Mercantile Exchange's $240 million in gold and silver still hasn't been removed from the remains of the WTC. It consists of 379,036 ounces of gold in 100-ounce bars worth $100 million and $140 million in silver bars.

Tourist spending in Florida has dropped $20 million a day or by 1/3rd since the NYC tragedy. At that rate the $50 billion a year industry could drop to $33 billion if tourism continues at this level. It would be devastating for the state if that were to happen, especially in the Miami and Orlando areas.

A supposed bipartisan congressionally mandated group headed by former philanderer ex-Senator Gary Hart and Warren Rudman, have had their recommendations included in a bill introduced by Rep. Mac Thornberry (R-Tx), for the creation of a National Homeland Security Agency, to be run by Pennsylvania Governor Tom Ridge. The Agency would consolidate FEMA, Federal Emergency Management Agency, with the Border Patrol now in the Department of Justice, the Customs Service now in the Treasury Department and the Coast Guard now in the Transportation Department. When legislation was originally introduced it got nowhere, but now since the tragedy the administration is attempting, during a period of fear and grief, to ramrod the legislation through. Let's see how many more of our Constitutional rights will be taken from us.

The pullback in the American economy will be of mega proportions. Expansion by business is at a total standstill and we don't need to remind you of the massive cutbacks in production and the unprecedented layoffs, both of which have only begun, consumers are gradually pulling back and returning to more normal shopping habits and they are being very cautious about big ticket purchases, like cars, homes and entertainment. Entertainers and sports entertainers are finally going to be paid what they are worth that is 1/10th what they now command in income. They'll all play to many empty seats. The business cutback hasn't really gotten underway. Yes, they began cutting a year ago, but consumers didn't. When consumers cut back there will be a second wave of cuts by businesses and industry. Imports will fall off a cliff. The emerging world is about ready to head back to the caves. Widespread damage to the economy will come in this second wave as consumers cut travel, effecting airlines and aircraft makers, hotels, convention centers, gambling, computer manufacturers and car dealers. Used car auctions are getting hit with waves of used cars from owners’ turn-ins and leased cars and trucks. The value of used vehicles has already dropped 20-30%. This effects new auto sales, steel, electronics and farm equipment. The economy is shrinking and will shrink much more as the real estate, debt and derivative bubbles pop. You haven't seen anything yet. The second wave will shock you and the third wave will paralyze you. We previously stated recovery could begin at the earliest in early 2003, but since the shock of the WTC tragedy and eminent protracted war, that has changed and we are looking for a flattening of the depression in 2004 or 2005. Almost all the forecasters, including the FED and Alan Greenspan, are a year or more behind the curve. Their foresight is myopic and that is because it's politically correct. If they step out of lock step with the elitists they lose their jobs. That's why you get lied to all the time. It's like the police in Hamburg in1940. At the war crimes trials the Chief of Police of Hamburg was asked why he rounded up all the anti-Nazi dissidents and Jews and shipped them to camps, even though he hated Hitler. He replied I was obeying the law and keeping law and order. I didn't want to lose my job. This is the same mentality that persists in America today. The only difference, in reference to Germany, is today no one has yet taken away our guns. Thus, the weak and passive go right along with the elitist program hoping they will be the last victims devoured by the alligators. Uncertainty has entered our lexicon. Fear has been reinstalled. The non-challenge is gone. Debts are going to be liquidated and the credit cards torn up. The forecasters can no longer tell you which way the economy and life are headed, because they are out of touch with reality. That means investments and consumption delayed or gone forever. The elitists have deliberately plunged us into a coming depression so they can convince us that we want one-world government while we are on our knees. That is what this is all about, Wake up America. If you don't you'll wake up to the smell of napalm in the morning. This is the final push by the elitists. They are going for it all and if we don't stop them our children and generations beyond will live in bondage. No one, or any business is immune. We are all going to feel the sting of going without. The handwriting is on the wall; all you have to do is read it.

America will only be able to recover when there is a massive change in psychology. We say this in a mode and atmosphere where we haven't even approached, our depth of difficulties as yet. Yet, if you want an answer that is it. There are the pundits – experts, who say from a long-term standpoint, right now stocks are undervalued. Let's get something straight that we learned in 42 years in the markets, long-term is 8:00 a.m. tomorrow morning. There is no such thing as long-term in investing and what is happening in your life. Long-term is not a saleable product. Those in the investment community and government say it over and over again, because they don't have any answers. It is a copout. It relates ignorance. This is why those viewers of CNBC and Bloomberg are buried in their stocks. This is why few real experts could foresee what was going to the market and the economy. These people are not stupid. They just don't understand that things are not the way they seem to be because behind the scenes there are those who are manipulating the future and the present. They are afraid to embrace the truth because they don't see it or they do and they want to remain employed. They are not about to tell you foreigners; investment houses, brokerage firms, mutual funds and money managers were the sellers in the market after the tragedy. How can they when they are asking you to be patriotic and buy. $5.9 billion was removed from mutual funds in the three days prior to the tragedy and $66 billion went into money market funds. The market was about to collapse and that is why the terrorists came in such a rush to complete their missions. The only real opportunities in the stock market now are gold shares, money market funds that don't use derivatives and very special situations, and it has been that way for 17 months. Thus far, unfortunately, we have been right, let's hope it stays that way.

An aspect of unemployment seldom discussed is underemployment. Executives are taking pay cuts of 10 to 30%. Companies furloughed workers for as long as six months with partial pay and are mandating two weeks of unpaid vacations for everyone else. Some firms are having workers stay home on Friday's three weeks a month. All these moves are to forestall further job cuts and retain workers that were expensive to recruit and train. Companies have a great deal of money invested in their employees. These mechanisms to avoid layoffs are expensive because as business and profits drop overhead doesn't drop a commensurate amount. This approach skews unemployment figures making them unreliable and a distortion. Workers by and large have embraced the changes fearing the alternative is much worse. Unfortunately, these moves do help, but in the final analysis the economy will be purged with great difficulty.

We believe Osama bin Laden and other terrorists were behind the recent terrorist attacks, but we also believe Iraq played a prominent, if not, controlling role. This would include Lebanese Imad Mughniyeh, head of special overseas operations for Hizbullah and Egyptian Doctor Aymean al Zawahiri, a senior member of Al-Qaeda and a possible successor to Mr. bin Laden. Mughniyeh is the world's most wanted outlaw and is probably in Egypt. He is bin Laden's chief representative. These two men were financed and received logistical support from Iraqi Intelligence Service (SSO). It is believed Mughniyeh is a psychopath and for worse than bin Laden. He recently attempted to blow up an El Al Airliner at the Tel Aviv Airport using a Lebanese terrorist posing as a Brit. In 1984 Mughniyeh kidnapped William Buckley, head of the CIA station in Beirut who he tortured and murdered. The CIA has a $2 million price on his head.

Most equity funds are now sitting on more capital losses than gains. This presents a potentially favorable situation for those who buy funds because of tax losses carried forward to be used against any future capital gains. The big question is will we have reached the bottom by the end of 2002?

As the economy spirals downward the number of credit card accounts overdue at least 30-days on 9/21/01 rose to 3.93% from 2.99% in the quarter, and 2.99% for the same period last year. The previous high was in 1996 when it hit 3.72%. The tax rebates and home refinancing haven't made a dent in debt. The consumer delinquency ratio for closed-end consumer loans rose to 2.51% from 2.4% in the first quarter. It was 2.30% in the same quarter of 2000.

The US is getting full cooperation from Uzbekistan and Tajikistan, two former Soviet republics. The Taliban rulers of Afghanistan have tried to spur militant uprisings in both neighboring states.

As we reported six years ago, in 1995 Uzbekistan and the US signed an agreement to conduct joint military exercises. This was done to outflank Russian interest in the area. US Army Commandos advised the country's 80,000-strong armed forces. In 1999, 16 Uzbek officers from the 65th Special Operations Battalion visited Fort Campbell, KY and Fort Bragg, NC, home of US Army Special Operations Command. The US will deploy small groups into Afghanistan fighting head to head and will do so until they catch up with Mr. bin Laden. Most of the US operations will be at night.

The sales job is underway to sell Americans the need for a new Homeland Security cabinet department. They must be made to accept the merging of a number of agencies into a consolidated agency. The problem is each agency has little in common with the other. All the editorialization we have seen thus far is very negative concerning existing agencies and their operations.

House Democratic leader Richard Gephardt (D-MO) says congress should quickly move to open debate on security measures, such as a national ID card. The card would have a photo, thumbprint digitized and embedded in the ID card. 3rd way Tony Blair of Britain has already approved ID cards for Britain., and they have also been approved in Canada. A big propaganda campaign is afloat in the UK to get citizens to accept the card, which will give the federal government total control over them. That is what they are up to here. The last major government with ID cards was Nazi Germany, where lack of proper identity cards resulted in immediate arrest. If passed, you will need this card for all life functions and if you are critical of the government, as we are, your card will be voided and you won't be able to subsist. This is what the government is after with an ID card. It will lead to total suppression of the population. This card means enslavement and 2/3's of Americans polled think it is fine. Government does something like this after every major negative event. The mind control apparatus goes into motion at their weakest possible moments.



Usul (10/2/01; 10:59:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 62812)
Jitters May Dampen Cut Impact on Stocks
http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/011002/business_markets_stocks_outlook_dc_2.html
..."GLOOM ON WALL STREET"

"Fear still reigns on Wall Street. Traders worry about U.S. reprisals to the terror attacks, a weakening economy and more companies warning of profit shortfalls.

``Those three issues overshadow the positive effects of the continued Fed rate cutting,'' said Erik Gustafson, portfolio manager at Stein Roe & Farnham, which oversees $22 billion. ``We have a crisis in confidence right now, and until that confidence is rebuilt, until we see a lower level of fear, the markets are going to continue to struggle.''..."


Usul (10/2/01; 10:54:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 62811)
White House's Hubbard-Attacks boost recession chances
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/011002/n02308763_1.html
"White House economic adviser Glenn Hubbard said on Tuesday the Sept. 11 attacks have ``significantly'' increased the likelihood that the U.S. economy, already shaky before the deadly incidents, is in a recession..."

"One of the keys to the economic recovery is the confidence of businesses and consumers, which has been shaken in the wake of the attacks, he said..."


Usul (10/2/01; 10:51:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 62810)
Consumer credit 'slow to recover'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/newsid_1574000/1574934.stm
"Fears are growing that the UK could be in for a more prolonged dip in consumer confidence than initially thought, following the terror attacks on the United States."

"In the first concrete sign that consumers have reined back significantly on their spending, financial information company Experian has reported a slowdown in consumer credit applications"

Usul (10/2/01; 10:49:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 62809)
French consumer confidence tumbles
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/newsid_1574000/1574987.stm
"Consumer confidence in France has fallen to its lowest level since late 1998, according to a government index which dropped for the seventh time this year...

The September survey did not fully reflect the impact of the attacks on the United States..."

Usul (10/2/01; 10:48:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 62808)
Corporate collapses leading to worker disillusionment
http://www.abc.net.au/news/business/2001/10/item20011002163009_1.htm
"High profile corporate collapses are beginning to take their toll on worker confidence.

Training and development company Leadership Management Australia, says its latest survey of managers and workers from more than 400 businesses, shows rising levels of dissatisfaction and disillusionment..."

Usul (10/2/01; 10:47:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 62807)
Business confidence worse than BOJ report shows
http://home.kyodo.co.jp/all/display.jsp?an=20011002089
"Heizo Takenaka, state minister in charge of economic and fiscal policy, said Tuesday that corporate confidence in Japan may be even worse than that shown in the Bank of Japan's latest survey because of the impact of the terrorist attacks in the United States..."


Usul (10/2/01; 10:46:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 62806)
Global Economy
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/011002/sp5942_6.html
Consumers gloomier, airlines suffer as Fed meets

"France and Sweden reported declining consumer confidence and the European Commission announced euro zone economic sentiment was at its lowest in nearly four years, based on data gathered mostly before the September 11 attacks suggesting the worst is yet to come"


Mr Gresham (10/2/01; 10:09:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 62805)
Usul
Well, you're finally bringing back to us that expression that Americans are about to learn, most of them for the first time in their lives: Fractional Reserve. Well spoken by you, and helping us to develop the many gentle ways we must learn to one day explain their predicament to them.

As we here have gone on and learned about certain derivatives (another new word for them) in the financial markets, we then backtrack and realize that the "money" we've all been passing around is but another derivative.

This is one of the central realizations I had when I chose my handle and entered this forum two years ago. At that time, I believed that one day (soon, of course ;) ) we would be seeing a 100-dollar bill exchanging for 85 one-dollar bills, or thereabouts. And a twenty only getting about 19 ones in return. As people got poorer, and the Fed flooded the country with 100-dollar bills (as they did for Y2k), a basic supply/demand discrepancy would erase the characteristic of fungibility among currency denominations that we now take for granted.

I suppose that a corollary to G's Law would be that the "bad" money TRIES to drive out the "good", or more usable and acceptable, money, whether fiat or PM, but it winds up just getting discounted more heavily as all "moneys" trade side-by-side in an inflationary depression.

Usul (10/2/01; 08:43:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 62804)
Derivatives: Leverage on top of Leverage
http://www.usagold.com/GreenspanDerivatives.html
Mr. Greenspan: a Proponent for Derivatives (link)
"It is our view that derivatives have come to have too much impact on our stock market. We suspect that huge amounts of hidden leverage exist through derivative speculations"

When LTCM went belly-up in 1998, it needed a bail-out to the tune of $3.625 billion, caused by a wrong turn against its derivative leverage, which at the end of 1997 amounted to $129 billion of "assets" leveraged 28 times against $4.7 billion of "capital". Had they not been bailed out, the cross-defaults might have threatened systemic collapse.

But what of the leverage of bank credit against deposits? And underneath, the leverage of fiat currency over its cost of production?

In today's financial environment, how do we know to what extent central control (e.g. of key interest rates) is still effective, when much of the "assets" have been created by leverage outside of the central source?


RS (10/2/01; 08:29:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 62803)
Fiat currency combined with fractional reserve banking...
Weapons of mass destruction?

----------------------------------------------------
The "Federal" Open Market Committee meeting today...
CNBC is still debating whether we "are already in a reccession".
Oh you people...



Galearis (10/2/01; 08:06:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 62802)
@ Netking re your #62784
But the real "news" nugget was at the end of the piece
If anything geopolitically positive comes from this so-called war it may just be this:

snip****
On Tuesday, the Pentagon ordered 2,000 more reservists to duty. Later, the House approved a $343 billion defense bill that diverted $400 million in funds from missile defense to counterterrorism efforts. In all, $6 billion has been allocated for counterterrorism.
unsnip****

Like the arms race in battleships prior to WW2, wherein the US was constructing these ships for alleged world dominance and (even) creating tensions with Great Britain, the missile defense spending re-initiated by Bush is similarly devisive vis-a-vis the US and Europe. (The economies through the '30s were faltering too, of course.) Now it seems that the priorities are a little more realistic.

During the '30s Great Britain launched its battleship building spree for what they considered at the time a future war against the US.

Assuming the news item is anywhere near accurate, of course.

G.




Cavan Man (10/2/01; 07:59:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 62801)
US Equities
(Reality Check)
"Worldwide semiconductor sales dropped 42% in August from a year earlier......... The semiconductor sector's woes typify a widespread phenomenom in the US stock market: Earnings are falling faster than share prices. The result is that even though stock prices have dropped substantially, valuations remain very high. A YEAR AGO THE S & P 500 INDEX WAS SELLING FOR JUST UNDER 29 TIMES ITS TRAILING 12 MONTH EARNINGS. SINCE THEN, THE INDEX HAS TUMBLED MORE THAN 27%...NOW THE S&P 500'S RATIO IS A POINT HIGHER."

Eric Fry reporting at Bill Bonner's DR.

Usul (10/2/01; 07:51:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 62800)
Bankrolling the world into chaos
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~bamr1/w2a.htm
Not only are paper promises to pay leveraged on top of their basic cost of production.

The banks multiply the paper promises to pay by the process of fractional reserve banking, whereby loans are created on top of a small fraction of actual deposits.

"a staggering 97% of the entire UK money stock consists of bank credit, created by the action of lending to borrowers"

"most money today consists simply of numbers - credit relayed between bank accounts via computer systems, and created almost out of thin air every time a loan is made"

How much leverage is in the power of bank numbers to be exchanged for goods and services, compared with their cost of production?


Cavan Man (10/2/01; 07:38:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 62799)
Thanks Strad Master
RE: Bell & Dames et al
Kooks, charlatans and nit wittery; only in a world so far removed from The One True God can thoughts such as these take root in weak minds and even weaker spirits.

Usul (10/2/01; 07:26:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 62798)
What is paper money?
Is it money made of paper? Or just paper and ink?
Take a look- what your piece of paper, or even plastic film may claim to be is a "note", or a "promise to pay". Nowadays, no paper currency is linked to gold. Your banker, with a straight face, will give you in exchange for your paper money, more of the same, and consider the promise met. A bank note costs a tiny amount to make, compared with what it promises to pay, yet it can be exchanged for goods or services worth a great deal more than its cost. It might be money, as described in the dictionary, but it is a different kind of money to gold money. Few people stop to consider by what mechanism that paper leverages its exchange for goods and services, or what might possibly go wrong with that mechanism.


Christian (10/2/01; 07:15:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 62797)
99% of all stocks and bonds are in street name-
Stocks and Bonds held in street name DO NOT BELONG to the people who paid for them. Money flows through the stock market rather then being in it. It simply becomes someone else's working capital. All stocks, bonds, home mortgages, etc are property of the FED. Debt cannot repay debt in the aggregate. Only earnings can retire debt. Our money system represents debt that has and will continue to be monetized. The interest cost on this debt is rapidly annihilating the middle class and delivering the nation into third world status. The arrival of raw materials times price man debited, nature credited is not allowed to deliver earnings because commodity prices are manipulated by the means of paper commodity trading. Paper gold issued through the London Bullion Market Association has encombered all physical gold in ground and above ground supplies. That is why U.S. gold reserves went from Reserves to Custodial to Deep Storage. Money is digital information. The current monetary system is being turned into an instrument of surveillance and control by our government. Homeguard security at work. How long will the American people endure the comming military battle before they consider Cede+Co is shorting their holdings under street name to protect the holdings of irresponsible bankers that make up the FED. $45 million of that just went to Bin Laden+ Co. Bin Laden is, was has been a CIA "asset" The CIA (Can't Identify Anything) when it comes to looking for a bleeding lost elephant in the snow. Banksters love war because they can loan money created out of nothing to both sides. This has been going on since the beggining of time, why should it change now or in the future.-- Anyone have any ideas where I can place the money still left from my 401k which is now a 001k savings account??

Usul (10/2/01; 06:55:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 62796)
U.S. Civil War, Effect on Gold
http://knottingley.org/history/civilwar/war_strategies.htm
The war, like all wars, called for great sums of money to pay troops and to supply them with equipment...

As in the South, though to a much lesser degree, paper money dropped in value in relation to gold, and inflation rose sharply.


Grubstaker (10/2/01; 06:14:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 62795)
For those who have eyes to see and ears to hear..
http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2001/2834chervonetz.html
Anyone who has seriously considered the FOA/ANOTHER scenario will find "the rest of the story" here. I believe this to be a major source for their discourses. I am not a subscriber to this newsletter nor am I affiliated with this organization in any way. It is time for the veil to be lifted. The paper game is over.

Spartacus (10/2/01; 06:08:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 62794)
Monetary Rules
http://www.federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/speeches/1998/199802272.htm

Remarks by Governor Edward M. Gramlich
The Samuelson Lecture, before the 24th Annual Conference of the Eastern Economic Association, New York, New York
February 27, 1998

…..The question of whether the Federal Reserve Board should use rules in the conduct of monetary policy is almost as old as the Fed itself. For a brief time in the Fed's history it used a policy-making rule based on monetary aggregates, and today many are suggesting that it use a rule based on the federal funds rate. Other countries have used policy-making rules that are based on explicit inflation targets. While at this moment the Fed is an institution where members vote on monetary policy using their own best judgment, the issues illustrated in discussing the question of rules are still interesting and controversial….


Belgian (10/2/01; 05:14:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 62793)
@ Netking
Yep, Sir...keep the focus on Saudi Arabia : Provider of 25% of global crude and reserves for X-years !

What will most probably happen : More muslims want re-distribution of the OPEC oil-wealth. That's the underlying motive for possible palace-revolutions, from inside or outside induced. A very important bin Laden (side) effect.
It is, what europeans (falsely - !!!) call, democratisation. How long will POO (21$) remain at the service of the global economy and how long will it take before crude-revenues, will be more democratisized for non terrorizing ME-muslims ?

How will the anti-terror-coalition-crusade act on : IRA /ETA/Yasser Arafat/Corsica/Algeria/Chechnya/Kashmir...?
Uncle Sam, suddenly gets a lot of requests to come over and eradicate all terror-nests on the globe. If the cost of these operations, have to be compensated again with cheap/cheaper oil....we are back to the origins of Desert storm. Is there a bright sight on this live (Monty Python)

Spartacus (10/2/01; 04:10:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 62792)
Intervention
http://www.mises.com/fullarticle.asp?control=794&month=37&title=In+Defense+of+Public+Intellectuals&id=37

....We should never tire in our mission to point out that there is an alternative to the Politically Correctly Left and the Militarized Right: that there is freedom itself, the genuine article, and a tradition of thought in defense of freedom unmatched by any other in its rigor and dedication. This ideal will continue to rise from the ashes, again and again, to point the way forward to peace, prosperity, and liberty.....

BR549 (10/2/01; 03:54:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 62791)
Hey!!! vin Laden my credit card doesn't work anymore! How am I supposed to pay for my flight school training? What's going on?
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/10/01/inv.frozen.assets/index.html
"We've frozen 30 al Qaeda accounts in the United States and 20 overseas, and we're just beginning," Bush said, referencing the network led by suspected terrorist mastermind Osama bin Laden, branded the "prime suspect" in the September 11 attacks.

- As much as $100,000 was wired in the past year from Pakistan to Mohamed Atta, a suspected leader of the terrorist hijackings, law enforcement sources said. The sources said the wire transfers from Pakistan were sent to Atta through two banks in Florida. Then, Atta would obtain money orders -- a few thousand dollars at a time -- to distribute to others involved in the plot in the months before the hijackings. "

How are these terrorists supposed to do their jobs done without adequate financing? How about some economic rights for these terrorists?

BR549





Spartacus (10/2/01; 03:49:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 62790)
Take two Aspirin
http://www.capitalinsight.co.uk/Home/Article.asp?ArticleFile=011001aspirin.pdf

....US M3 has risen more in the last twelve months than it managed in the first 197 years of the Republic, from the Declaration of Independence to the break up of Bretton Woods....


Netking (10/2/01; 02:44:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 62789)
Weapons of mass destruction in the Middle East
http://cns.miis.edu/research/wmdme/map.htm
An interesting inventory (per above link) of just how much "dry powder" is lurking in the M.E.

And a brief summary of what assets the U.S. has now assembled:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1557000/1557140.stm

Belgian (10/2/01; 02:07:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 62788)
@ Auspec @ Upon the roof
Auspec # 62773: Thanks for the pony express.
The call for Gold-Fund-Activation, was of course ment for the WGC, who responded that many Funds around the globe aren't allowed to invest/accumulate, physical Gold ! And that was it. No further explanations as to "why" it isn't permitted or no further indications of how this could be changed. What better evidence "again" that these 140.000 tonnes of aboveground Gold (the Valuation), are so barbaricly important and fragile ! Another aspect of the totally un-logic consideration of Gold. And than we zap to the 1.000 tonnes of Swiss Gold, shining upon the roof (# 62773). The ultimate swing-stash ! What interest do these Swiss have in selling their 1.300 tonnes of Gold at rock-bottom prices ? 1.300 tonnes, aqcuired (accumulated) over how much time and at what average price ? And again for the 1.300 and one-th, time : who is buying ?

The sale (?) (exchange) of these WA 400 tonnes a year, must have a completely other reason, than the ones they are trying to make us belief. I lack the intelligence to find out what might be the real purpose. But not stupid enough to sell, no one's liability (in full possession) for quasi nothing.

Let us couple the immobile Gold-Valuation on the global tendency for declining interest rates (IR)...yes even zero rates. Free paper money, as much as you desire, to do what ? An universe of paper fiat with a neglectable rent-price, available in excessive amounts, and usable for setting up, new paper generators. And still, nobody seems to jump on it and conquers the world. What does that mean ?
Entrepeneurship and consumption is saturated and immobilized (suffocated) by Debt. A high risk of complete standstill. And yet the Washington Agreers, do continue to sell (supposedly) that one and only debt-less yellow stuff.
Where is the minimum of logic in all this ? It is a complete "absurd" situation to me. And it is a global phenomina, now !

All our suppositions on Gold-sales, don't make any sense anymore. There is a vital missing link. Even if Gold-Reserves are used to bridge a very difficult (catastrophic) period (financial collapse)...you do realise you can only sell it once and fini...gone ! My kind of action would be of letting IR, rise and allow massive defaults, with much more chances for, "restart", afterwards.

Or is it EMU's devillish (TG's) plan to use Gold as the terminator and savior ? There must be a *PLAN* for and with Gold. Can't find any other explanation for so much absurdness in action. Or is there something completely wrong with me (not excluded)?

FOA: Are there differences in thoughts, amongst your associates ? Looking forward, hearing from you soon. Many thanks.



Netking (10/2/01; 01:45:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 62787)
Saudi Royal Politics Are Quicksand for U.S.
http://www.stratfor.com/home/0109262300.htm
This from 'Strategic Forecasting'(Strator) gaives a timely look on the interesting unfolding Saudi situation including the family power struggles from sources believed reliable - Netking

Snippets:
"King Fahd's long-failing health poses a serious question about succession to the Saudi throne. The eventual passage of power seems clear at the moment. Prince Abdullah is set to become king. But after this, a period of potential uncertainty seems likely to descend as Abdullah, 75, casts about for his own successor. This, in turn, seems likely to cloud the foreign policy of Saudi Arabia, trigger another round of intrigue within the royal family and generate doubt within the population at large, which is already divided by money, tribal ties and rising Islamic fundamentalism.

Stratfor Analysis;
On Aug. 24, King Fahd left Saudi Arabia for Spain. A monarch for 17 years, Fahd's health has worsened since a stroke in 1995. Saudi Defense Minister Prince Sultan reported Sept.15 that the king was in excellent health, and remained in Spain on holiday. . .?

The Saudi government is divided between factions that favor working with the United States -- partly because of economic benefits and the resulting boost to their own power -- and those who oppose engagement with the West. The internal debate reflects a larger split within Saudi society over the extent and context of engagement with the United States and on the impact that engagement has on Saudi domestic and foreign policy. As the United States prepares for war against an Islamic threat, this debate will escalate, further straining Saudi-U.S. relations.

Ultimately the quarrel stands to undermine future military and economic cooperation between the two countries. It also could widen the divide within the royal family and possibly set the stage for a power shift.
The Saudi Succession

King Fahd's long-failing health poses a serious question about succession to the Saudi throne. The eventual passage of power seems clear at the moment. Prince Abdullah is set to become king. But after this, a period of potential uncertainty seems likely to descend as Abdullah, 75, casts about for his own successor. This, in turn, seems likely to cloud the foreign policy of Saudi Arabia, trigger another round of intrigue within the royal family and generate doubt within the population at large, which is already divided by money, tribal ties and rising Islamic fundamentalism.

Analysis

On Aug. 24, King Fahd left Saudi Arabia for Spain. A monarch for 17 years, Fahd's health has worsened since a stroke in 1995. Saudi Defense Minister Prince Sultan reported Sept.15 that the king was in excellent health, and remained in Spain on holiday."

* " . . . refusal to allow the United States use of the Prince Sultan Air Base for retaliatory strikes against any Muslim nation came as an apparent surprise to Washington. Only days before, Air Force Lt. Gen. Charles Walk, commander of the U.S. Central Command's air operations, moved his home base from South Carolina to Saudi Arabia.

At first glance the refusal appears a reversal of Saudi government policy, but another explanation is more likely: It may have been the result of compromise between pro-U.S. and anti-U.S. factions in Riyadh. After rejecting Washington's request, the government moved quickly to sever ties with the Taliban -- appeasing the United States. The government, however, was likely less concerned with appeasement than maintaining a crucial political balance within the royal family and Saudi society.

The House of Saud achieves social harmony -- solidifying its position as the kingdom's ruling family -- by maintaining a complex system of checks and balances. This system is easily upset by change and is therefore conservative and highly resistant to outside interference.

The royal family commands the allegiance of various other tribes that populate the Arabian Peninsula through a system of patronage and social spending. But within the family itself, the struggle for power is a game of constantly shifting alliances and intrigues that impact domestic and foreign policy. . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------
You boys would like Euro's for oil huh? - Netking

Strad Master (10/2/01; 01:44:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 62786)
Response to Market Talk's most recent posting
Ed Dames and "Remote Viewing"
The reason there hasn't been any news articles about Ed Dames predictions regarding the Diablo Canyon Nuclear power plant and terrorism is that no one takes his crackpot predictions seriously except Art Bell who is so open minded that his brains fell out years ago. I have listened to Art Bell (and consequently) Ed Dames for a long time since I sometimes flip him on while I eat my supper. Art's and Ed's fear-mongering is an endless source of amusement for me since virtually nothing they ever say comes to pass. Remember, it was Ed Dames, after all, who described in great detail how his remote viewers saw that the comet Hale-Bopp was really an alien space ship and that it had discharged a canister full of alien biotoxin that supposedly landed in Africa. We are all supposed to be dead of that pandemic disease by now. Hmmm... I guess not. Sadly, his preposterous predictions did directly lead to the "Heaven's Gate" cult suicides since it was from Major Dames on Art Bell's show that those pour souls got the crazy notion that Hale-Bopp was a spaceship and all they had to do was kill themselves to be instantly on their way to alien Utopia. Major Dames and Art backpedaled furiously after that tragic incident and Dames wasn't a guest on Art's show for awhile. He's back, though, and subseqeuently has made a whole variety of other silly predictions - none of which have happened. Unfortunately, people have short memories, so they persist in hanging on Ed Dames' every word as though he actually had a track record of success. No doubt, if his psychic stuff were worth anything they'd have brought Bin Laden's head back on a golden platter by now, but I suspect that the US Army probably will just have to find him the hard way. Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if it was Ed Dames who hacked his own website to make it appear as if he had someone took him seriously. Personally, I find it very comforting that Ed Dames saw the Diablo Canyon plant being a target for terrorism. Since I live in LA a terrorist hit on that could be a major problem, but since Ed Dames predicted it, I can rest easy since it isn't going to happen. There are plenty of other REAL reasons to own gold, though.

BR549 (10/2/01; 00:25:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 62785)
More terrorism---You had better hurry bin because the good times are just about over for you and your fellow thugs.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,35524,00.html
"Blair is prepared announce the strikes will be directed at bin Laden's training camps and Taliban military and financial targets.

Military action will be "proportionate" and "targeted" and everything possible will be done to minimize civilian casualties, the official said. A timetable for the attacks has not been set, he said.

Blair's speech comes as the United States continues a massive military buildup in the region around Afghanistan. The aircraft carrier USS Kitty Hawk left Tokyo on Monday to join other U.S. forces being positioned for possible action.

Blair's speech comes a day after Pakistan's president said he had all but given up on efforts to mediate the standoff. Gen. Pervez Musharraf, suggested that U.S. military action now seemed inevitable."

The economic war continues to confiscate murderers assets and cripple future cowaradice terror plans while the other war of the 21st century is poised for military action. Go deeper into your holes bin laden, there is a pig blanket watiting for your burial.

BR549



Netking (10/2/01; 00:15:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 62784)
Bin Laden prepares new attacks
http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/breaking_4.html
Snippet:
Osama Bin Laden is preparing to launch new terrorist attacks over next few weeks, according to information obtained by western intelligence.

Officials said Bin Laden is believed to have ordered his agents in both Europe and the United States to scan targets and prepare spectacular strikes that could resemble those of the Islamic suicide attacks on New York and Washington on Sept. 11.

Bin Laden's plans have alarmed both London and Washington as well as several European capitals, Middle East Newsline reports. Officials said their concern is based on intelligence information obtained over the last two weeks.

"I understand he is preparing for high-impact terrorist attacks in the coming weeks, if he's able to," British Minister for Europe Peter Hain said. "We've got to track him down. We've got to stop him."

British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw agreed. Straw told the British Broadcasting Corp. that Bin Laden is preparing attacks. Western intelligence agencies, he said, do not know Bin Laden's targets.

"There continues to be a risk of them making further attacks," Straw said. "We don't know exactly where. On the one hand none of us wish to raise anxiety in the minds of the public, but we would be complacent and irresponsible not to warn of the risks."

Officials both in London and Washington assess that Bin Laden has hundreds of agents based in Europe and the United States on call for suicide attacks. They said the attacks could be launched even if Bin Laden is killed in a U.S. military campaign against terrorism . . . . "(end snip.) This is logical as he is an intelligent, organised & well funded terrorist(or freedom fighter).

Meanwhile the FBI believes it thwarted a terrorist attack on the nation's tallest building – 110-story sears tower, Chicago five under arrest & the US Prepares for Bio-Terrorism.

PS: One of my TV network's has just minutes ago reported a Russian news item that said it looks like "things are on the move" with regards to the impending action against Bin Laden with film clips of the Kitty Hawk on the move & transport planes landing in the area . . . . guess we'll know soon enough huh with 700+ media in Pakistan!
- Netking

BR549 (10/2/01; 00:03:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 62783)
A line in the sand. WAR now!


Enough diplomacy! The World Alliance has had enough time to calibrate its cruise missiles to target the cave doors of terrorists.

The time for patience grows thin. It is fairly obvious by now which side is for the good and who is for evil. This WAR knows who its true enemy is. The preventative strike for war is a strong and determined attack. Let's throw everything we've got at them. Why wait? What possible good will procrastination serve. Out friends in the trenches are taking on many casualties. How much worse can it get? Over the top and let's show them out best?

Go General Alan, a full point cut. Nothing less is appeasement! All out victory over gold is ours!

BR549




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