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Welcome to the USAGOLD Gold Discussion Archives. The archives of this gold discussion forum are a treasure trove of information to educate investors about protecting their wealth through portfolio diversification with private gold ownership. The discussion forum also covers the wider issues of the past, present, and future role of gold in international monetary policy and the dynamics of the modern gold markets...

The opinions posted by all guests are expressly their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the management or staff of USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals. The hosting of the public discussion shall therefore not be construed as an endorsement by USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals of any of the opinions posted here.

ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 1/21/2001
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

(Yesterday's Discussion.)

SHIFTY (01/21/01; 23:16:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 46110)
Gold takeover talk has market guessing
http://www.bday.co.za/bday/content/direct/1,3523,776795-6094-0,00.html

Price may be stumbling block in AngloGold-Gold Fields union
MARKET speculation about a tieup, friendly or hostile, between AngloGold and Gold Fields intensified on Friday as shares in both companies rose dramatically.

While a rumoured written proposal by AngloGold to Gold Fields has not been forthcoming, sources have indicated the two parties are in talks.

At one stage on Friday, Gold Fields was up close to 10% on the day before settling back to end at R28,70 a share, up more than 5% on the previous day and more than 15% on its close the previous Friday.

AngloGold gained 1% to R220 a share on Friday.

While a tie-up has been cautiously welcomed by the investment community, the price tag on such a deal has investors guessing and could prove a stumbling block, particularly in the case of a hostile bid.

A rumour that Barrick Gold could partner AngloGold in the deal has gained credibility, given Barrick's strong balance sheet and overseas operations which create dollar revenue and profit.

Gold Fields is valued at more than R13bn by the market. A hefty takeout premium would have to be made for investors to consider an offer, with most of them seeking cash rather than shares due to their exposure to both companies, and their wish not to overexpose themselves in either the equity or gold sector.

An offer of R20bn in cash would be inconceivable for AngloGold on its own at present as the group's gearing is at its highest yet.

Some of its debt is also dollar- denominated, meaning that against a weakening currency, AngloGold could become overgeared in spite of improving overseas operations helping its offshore cash flow.

An analyst said AngloGold could look to its parent for help, but it was unlikely that Anglo American would want to be part of such a deal. It was, reportedly, the Anglo American nonexecutive directors of AngloGold who voted down a proposed hostile bid by AngloGold for Gold Fields last year, underwritten by Chase Manhattan Bank, when it seemed such a bid was forthcoming.

The analyst said his reading of Anglo American's plans was that it was too heavily invested in gold as things stood. Apart from its 54% stake in AngloGold, the group also has stakes in Avgold and Western Areas.

While he agreed that Anglo American did already have a stake in Gold Fields, he said it would make more sense for Anglo American to sell this stake, valued at about R2,2bn, to an offshore company such as Barrick if the company was indeed looking for SA assets.

Anglo American would earn dollars for this stake, which could be used to expand its growing base metal operations.


Journeyman (01/21/01; 22:51:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 46109)
Prosecutorial Discretion and the Rule of Law @PH in LA, Peter Asher, ALL

I believe they call it "prosecutorial descretion." It means that those in charge get to pick which CASES they will prosecute and which they won't. Like Ken Starr's successor decided Friday not to prosecute Clinton for lying in the Paula Jones case.

But this is symptomatic of a ludicrous so-called justice system that has not only so many CASES they can't even begin to all be tried, but so many LAWS they can't even begin to all be enforced.

Just for example, the Clinton Administration added 870 new pages of regulations to the Federal Register on Thursday, this on top of the 29,000 -- that's right, twenty-nine thousand -- new pages they previously added in the last three months.

So, since it's impossible to enforce all laws and prosecute all cases, Democrat, Republican or Martian, it's ALWAYS a matter of "which laws and which cases will I enforce and which will I ignore?"

Does this sound like the rule of law to you - - - or does it sound more like the rule of men, using arbitrary prosecutorial descretion and an infinite number of laws to punish or reward those they arbitrarily choose to pursue their own arbitrary agendas?

This is what we've come to, and if you're dismayed, it's probably because you watched too many Perry Masons as a kid.

Regards,
Journeyman


SHIFTY (01/21/01; 22:36:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 46108)
Periodic Ponzi Update PPU
http://home.columbus.rr.com/rossl/gold.htm
Nasdaq 2770.38 + Dow 10,587.59 = 13,357.97 divide by 2 = 6,678.98 Ponzi

Up 103.03 from last week.

Thank you rossL for your link.

$hifty

elevator guy (01/21/01; 21:51:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 46107)
US vs THEM (satire for all polemics)
I would like to sound the alert!

THEY have evil intentions of taking away our liberty, and THEY are hell-bent at dominating us, and taking away our rights.

THEY use unfair tactics, and THEIR latest efforts fly in the face of our sensibilities.

THEY will lie, cheat, steal, and manipulate us, in order to shove their ideas down our throats.

THEY are untrustworthy, and break their deals.

THEY don't respect GOD.

THEY rip the heads off of poor little kittys.

WE need to mobilize our friends, and do something to prevent an all-out victory by THEM. If WE dont act now, it may soon be too late.

WE are the good guys, who ride white horses and wear white hats.

WE rescue little kittys who are stuck down wells, or up in the branches of high trees.

WE are GOD's favorite group.

We are the side that is right, and so we must detest other peoples with every fiber of our being.

Are you with me in this? If you are not with me, then you are against me. You must take a side, or be left out in the cold. Join US, and then everything will be alright. Join now, you coward!

(satire)

Sierra Madre (01/21/01; 21:49:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 46106)
Some musings on Europe and Europeans, if I may....
Over the years, upon returning to the U.S. from Europe, I have repeated to my patient wife, the same remark: "When you come back to the U.S., you get the impression that Americans are like children."

I think Herodotus mentions that the Egyptians felt the same way about the Greeks. So, there's something to be said for a culture that is as greedy for novelty as a child. But there is much to be said for the gravity and prudence of older cultures, who have suffered so many terrible shocks in their long history.

The world we live in is a European world. Has it been becoming an Americanized, Hollywoodized world? Might be. However, as long as businessmen wear coats and ties, they are saying, "We dress as Europeans". The Japanese, the Chinese, the Koreans, most of the business people all over the world in fact, wear European dress. This is significant.
In fact, across the world, whatever active, productive people wear, men and women both, is principally European clothes. I realize I generalize excessively - what I am driving at, is that the world today, is a European creation, and that includes the U.S.

It would seem to me, that Europe, after 55+ years of subservience to the U.S. - a childish, upstart nation - is finally "getting its act together". The French and Germans don't love each other, but they detest U.S. domination even more. So the European Union and the Euro is a manifestation of the profound desire of Europe to master its own destiny.

Ortega y Gasset wrote in the 30's words to this effect: Europe is the result of a process that has been going on for hundreds of years, a process of building Europe. Where does it go from here (1930's)? There must be a project, because Europe without a project withers and dies. There is no going back. ("Revolt of the Masses")

Evidently, the European Union is Ortega y Gasset's prophecy come true: the Union, the blurring of borders, with difficulty at first, and finally accepted; and with time, the realization of a great project to capture the European imagination: a United Europe.

The Euro is going to be the world currency, I do not doubt. The American Empire has been squandered by internal divisions which have caused reckless spending and indebtedness, abetted by the use of the Dollar as the reserve currency of the world since WWII - the poison of such a privilege has ruined the great U.S.A. Unfortunately for Americans, their élite "Wasps" lost their way amid the babble of ivory tower intellectuals, and joined them in their own destruction. We all know the very sad story. The American Empire is going down, but...it may cause a lot of problems on its way down!

As Pandagold has, I think wisely, said, the Euro is being soft-pedalled until it is strong enough to take the brunt of its new mission: the world currency.

Perhaps we may witness, if we live a few more years, Europe regain its old position as the center of the world, as it was before 1914. (One piece is still missing: a European Army!)

Perhaps then the world will be led by a mature, adult Empire, one with well over two thousand years' of history, and not by a childish nation with childish ideals of an absurd equality and unlimited debt for all.

Such an Empire will be sure to reinstate hard currency, a merciless hard currency which will also be a just currency, one that does not dissolve like sugar in the mouth of the saver. Only an adult and mature European culture, one that has taken the hardest knocks of life, can have the guts to prefer justice (and survival!) to weak-kneed compassion (with other people's money, of course!)

I do see some clouds ahead for Europe as head of a world empire: 1. insufficient population growth, excessive entry of non-Europeans into Europe. 2. a question regarding the vitality of Europe - image of Europe as an aggregation of "old people". "Old people" do not Empires make. (However,they can certainly be hardnosed about MONEY!)

That's what I see coming, friends. Maybe we won't like it when we get it. But as Bill Clinton said, "It was a great ride!" The ride's just about over for America.

Or is it?



Old Yeller (01/21/01; 21:43:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 46105)
Economists;soothing entertainers or hard edged realists?


Good evening,everybody.It's good to see the cyber brouhaha
slowly slipping away,now we can get back to discussing the
politics that really matter;the politics of the dollar.

I may have painted all mainstream media economists with the same brush yesterday,which is unfair to the dismal science.
There are some out there that offer a differing perspective
than the usual talking heads.One of my favorites is Paul
Kastriel at northerntrust.com.I've seen him quoted several
times in various wide circulation financial publications.
He seems to be somewhat jaded in regards to the new economy
dream scenario and uses a wealth of data and charts to back
his arguments and predictions of future directions.

This excerpt is from the daily economic commentary from January 17,2001,I found this paragraph to echo some thoughts from others at this forum.

"As an aside,the majority of the FOMC,perhaps a majority of one,has made it clear that a recession will be fought at all
policy costs by the Fed.Although overall inflation,no doubt,will moderate in 2001 as energy prices stabilize,it is unlikely that it will return to the 1.6% to 1.7%of 1997
and 1998.So,the US economy will embark on a new economic expansion in the second half of this year with a higher inflation starting point.This scenario has 1967-68 written all over it.Greenspan may be about to embark on a squandering of the Fed's hard won credibility as an inflation fighter."

Also, in regards to the strong dollar policy,I would like to thank Auspec for his #46030 posting of FOA's thoughts on the matter.This is part of the incredibly complex,thought provoking debate that was waged by the traveler and FOA.
I spent many hours over the quiet holiday season reading
and re-reading this exchange between the two,but for some reason,I didn't print out this post.I am surprised this
debate isn't in the hall of fame,it is certainly worthy of consideration especially in light of the recent develop-
ments in the unfolding drama.

Thanks all,and have a golden tomorrow.



Peter Asher (01/21/01; 21:43:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 46104)
Makes sense to me, must be a catch somewhere.

Davis Confers Daily With Former Treasury Secretary Rubin so 'Wall Street
Understands What We're Doing;' Says California Will Not Drag Rest of
Country Into Recession

NEW YORK, Jan. 21 /PRNewswire/ -- California Gov. Gray Davis tells Newsweek that he
plans to appoint a ``power-plant czar'' this week who will ``honcho'' the completion of five
power plants currently under construction and will expedite the permit process for several more
in the energy-needy state. Davis tells San Francisco Bureau Chief Karen Breslau in the January
29 issue of Newsweek (on newsstands Monday, January 22) that altogether he plans to have 15
new plants under construction before his term ends in 2002. The plants would be the first in the
state since the 1980s.
(Photo: http://www.newscom.com/cgi-bin/prnh/20010120/HSSA005)

Davis, who was criticized for not acting faster, is now trying to increase energy supplies and
drive down prices. And he tells Newsweek that he talks ``three times a day'' to former Treasury
secretary Robert Rubin, now a co-chairman of Citigroup, ``to make sure Wall Street understands
what we're doing.''

But the cost of the power crisis and subsequent disruptions are already costing billions of
dollars and many experts now fear that the problems of the nation's largest state economy may
spill over to the rest of the country, writes Senior Writer Adam Bryant, in a separate story on
California's energy crisis. But Gov. Davis dismisses any suggestion that his state's energy
problems will weigh heavily on the country's economy. ``California will not drag anyone into
recession. It will outperform the rest of the nation.''



Peter Asher (01/21/01; 21:20:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 46103)
PH in LA (01/21/01; 21:00:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 46102)

Whatever!

PH in LA (01/21/01; 21:00:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 46102)
Peter Asher's Fact Finding Committee

Peter Asher:

Just mentioning a word in a sentence is not the same as writing about that subject.

If you read carefully the sentences you so gleefully post in your msg#: 46084, you will see that it is about "father" Dubya. Not about power in California. My intention was to underline the words of a soon-to-be chief executive saying that he would "do everything...to circumvent existing... laws". This from the person soon-to-be-sworn to uphold and execute the laws of the land. All the laws. Not just the laws he agrees with. Normally, society puts people who think they only have to obey the laws they like, in jail.

Yes, I did mention power in California. However, I was writing about Dubya. Not about power in California. I stand by my comment to Leigh.

And while we're here, why not ask her why she thought someone else should have come riding to her defense. Isn't that what conservatives are always preaching about? Personal responsibility? Oh I know. That personal responsibility thing is mostly just reserved for those other guys, and for all those insects in California, isn't it?

ThaiGold (01/21/01; 20:29:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 46101)
New WebSite for a New Era
http://users.sisna.com/ThaiRanch/EagleRanch/index.htm
Hi Lady Leigh:
Here's a little-something to soothe your jangled nerves today:
Checkout the special Pix-of-the-Day link at the top-right of the
HomePage (klik on above underlined link)... Enjoy.!.

Hi $hifty:
I spent the entire day installing a bunch of new [faster] charts
with more [deluxe] features at the site. Goto the HomePage,
then hit your "END" key on your keypad. That'll take you to
the bottom of the page where you will see [on the right side]
listed 8 new sets of metals charts. They are:
*Live 3Day Overlay GOLD
*Live 3Day Overlay SILVER
*Live 3Day Overlay PLATINUM
*Live 3Day Overlay PALLADIUM
*FAST Gold
*FAST Silver
*FAST Platinum
*FAST Palladium

These all load superfast, and won't burden your cache with
all the usual kookies and glitz from Kitco, that take forever to
load. Hit your BACK button to return to the HomePage. These
charts [like all of them at my website] can be refreshed at any
time, in an instant, by hitting your "F5" Key.

Your "HOME" Key will take you back to the top of the page
for the other links and features. Or you can scroll up and down
thru the page using your ARROW Keys.

As I continue to relentlessly add features and tools that may
be of interest to everyone, I'd like to invite all the New Posters
to visit the site and make use of it in it's myriad ways of fast
access to all the major markets and metals. There's even a
quick Link directly to this USAgold CPM Forum RoundTable.!.

Poke around and see what all is there. I've tried to make it a
versatile one-stop-location for all your needs, sorta like a mini
"office", over there in the dusty corner nearby the RoundTable.

Just a mouse-klik away is a complete library, news, market,
and even some fun-stuff for the kids to enjoy on dull days.

But on fast-moving days, which we can expect soon now, it's
a site that could be very helpful to anyone of the Forum.

Literally, a New WebSite for this New Era.

Thanks everyone, for giving it a try.!. I hope you all enjoy it.

Cordially,

ThaiGold@OperaMail.Com


USAGOLD (01/21/01; 20:24:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 46100)
Announcing a New Wing to Hall of Fame . . .
In conjunction with the contest now in progress, I have talked with Randy @ the Tower and we have decided to construct a temporary wing of the Hall of Fame where all the contest entries will be enshrined for the duration of 2001. I suggest we call this wing "2001 A Gold Odyssey: Predictions On the Upcoming Year from Round Table Members (As posted late January, 2001)." The winner and runners-up of course will be specially honored as they should be. The "Exhibit" will remain open until December 31st, 2001 and we hope that the Table Round will find it a source of discussion (and yes, Auspec, even amusement) for the duration. Under the circumstances and in the interest of fair play, anyone who has already made a post and would like to alter it, we welcome you to do so. Please send a note to the sitemaster with the message number you want included in the Hall.

Peter Asher (01/21/01; 19:59:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 46099)
Mr G @ Leigh
That kitco spike is the typical staggered pattern of a computer glitch. March Silver is at it's high up 1/2 cent.

Gold however is real @ up $2.00 and holding.

Dollar Bill (01/21/01; 19:50:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 46098)
****2001-2002.......a Gold Odessey*********
Message below

Peter Asher (01/21/01; 19:49:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 46097)
Hey Mr G
Good one! lets hope this time it's not going to hold up,er ah, down.

Peter Asher (01/21/01; 19:45:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 46096)
Post Inaugeral Rally

I wouldn't pin a prediction on a two hour rally but it could be possible that the PM market shares the sentiment that the new folks in Washington might be a better breed of leadership and therefore more in agreement with "Fair play for Gold"



Dollar Bill (01/21/01; 19:42:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 46095)
The coming year of more of the same.
When the 15 european countries (including England) tried thier last gasp at upending the dollar and supplanting it with the euro, when they claimed that they would not support gold leasing...........
They caved in and now the BIS is the one that is charge of
derivitive record keeping and keeps doing what is neccessary to support the dollar.
Clearly the big boys of the fiat dollar world are determined to carry this world economy onward with credit and liquidity as neccessary. How many years can this be sustained? More than we like to think about here.
So, I say this year will be another year of controlled gold.
The upending of the dollar at this point would crash the world. All the very top big boys value thier comforts and power perks way too much to disrupt the goose that lays the golden egg in thier lives. While I am a Doug Nolan devotee, I see the limits of his vision. I dont wish him to change however! But the very top guys are not doing what they are doing with the view that he thinks they have.
You know, for the sake of us that mainly try to read here, maybe there could be another forum for all the very off topic sentences that get typed here.



Artie Farkle (01/21/01; 19:39:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 46094)
Putting things in perspective
Let's see if we can find our place on the map...
The life span of our sun is 10 billion years. It has used up about 5 billion. Assuming we do not master intra stellar travel, we humans have less than 5 billion years before the sun expands and consumes the earth.

Modern humans have been around many thousands of years. Up until six thousnad years ago, the population was only about 50 million people. Today the population is around 6 billion!!!! We are quickly headed for eight billion.

Oil and natural gas became popular in the last one hundred years. Oil discoveries peaked in the early 1960's. Oil production is expected to peak around 2006.

Food production increased greatly with the use of petroleum products to produce fertilizer and pesticides; thus, the 6 billion people.

People, food and oil, that's what it's all about. When the oil Production begiens to taper off, so will the food production. The mortality rate will go up.

There are other problems, like how we water our food or which political party is the bad one, democrat or republican (I think they both suck). We have drugs, rap music, Rush Limbaugh, Jessie Jackson, Michael Jackson....

FINALLY: Here is my point. The list of problems goes on and on but, we don't (at least not in the physical sense).
In the big scheme of things, we aren't even a speck on a gnats behind.

A SUGGESTION: Let's use the great analytical minds here to determine if and how we can best use gold and silver to make our lives a little better. :O)

Mr Gresham (01/21/01; 19:37:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 46093)
Leigh -- HiYo Silver!
Looks like someone fell asleep at the short-selling desk in Australia. "R-i-n-g! R-i-n-g!" "Huh? Oh, ya. Right, mate. Get right on it..." There, it's back down again.

megatron (01/21/01; 18:56:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 46092)
'unemployment ' looming
It's tommorow in Asia and judging by the Kitco charts I'd say some people have given up and are emptying thier desks
or are busy shredding paper a la' the "Bubba"

auspec (01/21/01; 18:40:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 46091)
CoBra{too}
AEIOU?
I know of a,e,i,o,u, and sometimes y, but know not of which you speak. History lesson please.
Yes, your interest and love for this country is obvious, should many {most} Americans be so inclined! We may just have to adopt you.
I did forget one more thing: we can {temporarily} balance more derivatives on the head of a pin than the rest of the world combined! What a country. Fairly gracious 1st Lady too, wouldn't you say? Bet our 1st Lady {now} is lovlier than your .................Stop already.
Wish they would give the ants and grasshoppers seperate parts of the country in which to live out life's "hopes". We could send them IMF money and enslave them to the US banana {you know the more I think about that I realize that's what is already happening}.
See ya tomorrow, same goldtime- same goldstation

SHIFTY (01/21/01; 18:37:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 46090)
Kitco Chart
GOLD is looking a bit frisky tonight!!

$hifty

Pandagold (01/21/01; 18:29:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 46089)
Buena Fe - Rex Nutting's article


So Rex Nutting poses the question -what will Bush do.
Answer - Exactly what he's told to do.

Whatever Bush is, or isn't, I believe he's long enough in the tooth politically, and biologically, to know which side his bread is buttered on. He will want to serve out his presidency the full term, and not finish up, half way, on some mortuary slab.

At least his Secretary of State will appear to have a little more credibility when trying to broker any Middle East peace deal. The last administration's choice, Albright, when sent trying to sort out the Palestinian/Israeli problem was akin to sending a fox to mediate a dispute between a fox and some feathered inhabitants of a poultry farm.

It was incredible that they could have believed it was even remotely possible. Perhaps they didn't, perhaps it was never really intended. If so, their choice in Albright, would be understandable. She was one evil woman both in looks and deeds - her remarks during the Bosnian crisis where appalling. To see her replaced is one giant plus, for me, in the whole election debacle.

Hope I haven't upset too many of you Albright fans, I know there is no accounting for taste in this world. But I could never see her being good for gold, on the reasoning that I could never see her being good for anything that could have a positive connection.

Leigh (01/21/01; 18:18:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 46088)
Silver's Going Up!
Check out the price of silver on Kitco! Up 12 cents!

CoBra(too) (01/21/01; 18:13:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 46087)
"AEIOU" *-
Hi Auspec, as I suspect(-ed) you'd teach me an historical lesson.
And my country in need to learn your ways and concern - though where have you been, when our scream after
Versaille's treaty was seen as historical alert to Adolf's Regime? - you couldn't be heard and not even discern, the appaesement politics of your old country's leaders, still smarting from tearing apart the continent's girders, maintaining the semblance of an equilibrium to all.

As you know I love your country, and for what it stands - and stood for - and hope it will stand forever for individual liberty - ... and as I've been old enough to have read George Orwell's "1984" before it happened, big "Brother" is watching you ... cb2

* Motto of Emperor Fraanz Joseph - Any Qu's?



Randy (@ The Tower) (01/21/01; 17:46:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 46086)
"The Early Bird Gets the Worm" ... or ... "GOLD: You either have it or you don't"
http://www.usagold.com/onlinestore/special.html
Michael sends word that the gold 10 Guilder young Dutch queens have now all been spoken for, and efforts to secure additional quantities have not proven fruitful thus far. Congratulations to all (myself included) who acted early enough to secure an order of these beauties.

So, while the "sold out" sign must come up on those items, MK has been able to land enough additional Kings to keep that offer up for the time being. Don't be shy...gold in the hand is worth $XXXXXXXX???? in contract form when cascading counterparty defaults show paper for the poor wealth substitute that it is.

Peter Asher (01/21/01; 17:21:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 46085)
auspec

ROLFL and thanks

Peter Asher (1/21/2001; 17:18:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 46084)
From fact finding committee to Leigh and All
From fact finding committee to Leigh and All
PH in LA (1/20/2001; 10:32:50MT -#: 45987)

Did you agree with "father" when he said yesterday that the power industry can count on him to do everything in his power to circumvent existing environmental laws on clean air to give power companies, and investors in power companies, even more right to pollute our air?

Isn't the right to breathe the very air on our planet something we owe to every living thing on
God's earth? Isn't that more important than any "investors' rate of return"?

PH in LA (1/21/2001; 13:02:29MT msg#: 46061)

You cannot find one word that I have ever spoken, written or
otherwise expressed about the power situation in California. Period.

auspec (1/21/2001; 17:04:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 46083)
CoBra{too}
Flack?
Wouldn't think of disappointing you! You must have just peered in at this weekend's fracus and felt a little left out. I bet you won't draw any more ire than Journeyman did, in spite of both of your conscientious efforts. It's not as easy as you guys think it is, more of an art form. You can't just move in for instant confrontation, much better to continuously goad your "object" over a period of time first. It's also better if you fail to take the Doctor's prescriptions for a few weeks prior to actual contest, or eat 2 banana $plits 2 hours before the event. Learn from your teenagers, they have it down pat!

Anyway, so as to not totally leave you left out, and in the lurch, a few insults are coming your way. I'm not a history major, but certainly your fine country has been defeated or rescued, or possibly both, by the country you so casually malign {pretty standard so far}. When I go to work tomorrow will likely do the work of two of my American equivalents and four or more of your cohorts {take that cb2}. Ready for another? Shall we bring up the issue of socialism {splitting hairs now}? OK, better sit down for this one: your single malt scotches are twice the price of my aged rum and don't taste any better! This from a Scottish-American!
Here's the last one.......My Oligarchy is better than your Oligarchy!!! Actually Siamese Twins. You are GLIB {that one is for Peter}.
Gotta go for now---- better get some ice on that!
See ya soon friend.

Buena Fe (1/21/2001; 16:31:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 46082)
grats
auspec.......thanks for your responses yesterday!
Cheers

Buena Fe (1/21/2001; 16:29:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 46081)
US$ (banana)
http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/current/capitol.htx?source=htx/http2_mw
I had to dig deep for this one.......bingo!

Not a landslide but a sea-change
Bush's pro-business agenda will alter Washington

By Rex Nutting, CBS.MarketWatch.com
Last Update: 6:00 AM ET Jan 20, 2001

....The next crisis could be an attack on the dollar. As the U.S. economy weakens, foreigners will see less reason to finance the $400 billion current account deficit. If foreigners pull out their capital, the dollar will weaken, pushing up import prices and fueling inflation.

Consumers will scream, but U.S. exporters will cheer silently.

The question is, what will Bush, O'Neill and Lindsey do?




Journeyman (1/21/2001; 15:50:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 46080)
Quite correct @Canamami

Yes! Largely because Ross Perot got significant percentages in both Clinton's runs, Clinton won with less than half of those actually voting, reducing his support even among voting citizens to 46% (I think) in his first race.

Further, less than half the registered voters even bothered to vote at all in Clinton's second race, thus the turn-out in the "Bush/Gore" race shows a minor come-back for voting registered voters.

Both Clinton terms were served with less than half of the voting public having cast votes for him, and in the second term, less than half the registered voters, not to mention that well under 50% were even registered at all.

The figures make it untenable to argue that what these people do while occupying their office represents the will of the majority.

This is healthy, as it shows the appropriate level of supprot for folks who violate their oaths of office from the minute they take them.

Regards,
Journeyman


CoBra(too) (1/21/2001; 15:50:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 46079)
"A Nation torn asunder?" ... and in denial of the reality of its problems!
No, not by a few thousand votes, alledgedly not counted, re-counted or discounted, nor by the fact that the courts had the final count - imagine the count (or is it toll) by the street- but for the fact that a vast majority may have waived their "democratic" rights, or is it obligations, for the obvious farce John Grisham has so aptly described in his latest bestseller "The Brethren". Is it the the denial of reality - or better we'll do everything for our health, individually, though forget about the health of our family, state, country and globe - be it socially, politically, economically, environmentally, or is it plain ir-rationality or -responsibility?

You don't need any admonishment by any European, African, nor Asian or anybody else, you will say, which is more than true. But then, most of the rest of us has had to use your currency contracts to obtain, no, not your goods, though necessary resources of minor importance to a well balanced first world economy, as such trivial low tech. and seasonal volatile goods (or "bads"} as natural resources, primary energy, clean air, water and soils, to produce natural food, uncontaminated by herbicides, pestizides and genetic engineering, which are as untested to their long term effects, as the use of nuclear power, in the aftermath of Tchernobyl.

And while the international division of labor does work, as long as the fruits of the same are shared on an equal basis, it seems something in this equation has gotten totally out of whack. May it be that all scales of measurement are calibrated on the medium of exchange, the hegemonial US $ supremacy, based on raw power, giving it the right to dictate not only the state of the nation, but the globe.
And while I'm not considered a green environmentalist, I can envision a global warming by blasting our refuse into space and its effects, the pack ice and the glaciers melting, natural castatrophies mounting and lastly the greed induced fallacy of improving our food base by chemical and genetical horrors, which have arrivced to haunt us forever.
Another fervent environmentalist, you may say! So, just look to parts of the ex-communist block. It is just across our (Austrian) borders and you'll see devastated areas as big as Arkansas, depopulated of trees and depopulated of man tomorrow. Vaster areas of depopulation in the neighbourhood of Chernobyl and in the Ural's and have you ever come across the vast new beaches of the Baikal Sea, well toxic stretches of desert, which once was the largest inland lake of the globe.
... And now I'm seeing a country, leading the world via a paper pyramid derivative scheme, telling the rest of the not so well off world (LDC's) to trade their emission rights in order to pay back the same paper, and in real goods, they've never asked for.
... and if some don't believe in the good words, spoken by the new President, I still feel without civility and compassion, liberty is just a hollow word - As the US-$ is only fiat paper, backed by hollow promises to fulfill or default on obligations of yesteryear.
... Your "Talents" may be weighed against GOLD!

cb2

PS: Looking forward to the flack.

Randy (@ The Tower) (1/21/2001; 15:46:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 46078)
A contest is afoot! Notice is served to those just now arriving from afield to our Round Table...
*REPOST*

USAGOLD (1/19/2001; 11:27:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 45919)
Hear Ye. . . .Hear Ye. . . . A Call to Contest. . .
A test of your thinking, predicting and posting skills to occur from now until midnight (MST) on Tuesday, January 23rd. We stand at the first month of a new millennium, a time to stop and think what the future might bring. So the contest is simple as it is challenging:

To wit: Will 2001, a market Odyssey, be a positive one for gold or a negative one? Is this the year of the big breakout? More of the same? A disaster? You make the call, support it with knowledge, skill and erudition and the prize is yours!

We ask contestants to treat the potential economic, political and financial scenarios as a basis for their opinion. We stand at a threshold -- not just of a new century but a time of uncertainty as the winds of change sweep through the world economy. There could be no better time for a contest with such a theme than now.

Your post must be at least 30 words and it must contain in the subject box the following:

**** 2001 -- A Gold Market Odyssey ****
(Surrounded by stars as shown....to help get our attention when we gather the many entries together at the deadline.)

The prize will be a .1867 ounce pre-1933 French Rooster gold coin. There will be two runners-up who will receive a one ounce silver Eagle each.

Also, we will have another contest to guess the price of gold for the February contract at the close Friday, January 26, 2001. All entries must be posted, however, by midnight (MST) Tuesday, January 23, 2001. The winner of will be the one whose arrow falls most closely to the mark, and shall be rewarded a tenth ounce prize that shines with the light of gold. All price guesses must be accompanied by sound reasons for your prediction to gain the prize. And as has been done it the past, it would please our judges if you would use standard arrows in the subject line of your post when you take aim to enter this 2nd contest. Like this:
>>>========= $300.00 ==========>

Also, all first-time posters will be awarded a one ounce silver Eagle if you post during the contest period -- from now until Tuesday midnight, January 23rd, 2001.

To qualify for the prize, you must e-mail jill@usagold.com confirmation citing the message number once you've made your first post. We will check each first-time poster's claim, so don't feel like you can get one by us.

We wish you good luck, good fortune. . . . . .And. . . . .

Let the contest continue!

Peter Asher (1/21/2001; 15:34:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 46077)
Pandagold re Saddam

You point out an interesting thing there. We gave him and his cohorts, by the sanctions, a great vehicle for obtaining personal wealth in a regimented society: Scarcity!

Top notch post on Gold 2001.

auspec (1/21/2001; 15:19:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 46076)
Pandagold
post #46055
Excellent post! I believe and "hope" you are spot on. You would think a Pandagold would be a bit more "bearish" on POG.....................Sorry, couldn't help it. Start thinking of a place to keep that coin. Best.

canamami (1/21/2001; 15:12:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 46075)
Neither got 50% of even those who voted + earlier questions
No candidate received 50% of the votes cast. Neither did Slick Willie in his two wins. (In fact, Gore received more popular votes than Clinton ever did). One pundit made a good comment: the talking heads were unimpressed by the candidates, but the American people weren't unimpressed... voter turnout increased this election. In retrospect, I submit both Dubya and Gore will be viewed as solid candidates.

I still haven't received a reply from anyone to my earlier questions re the nature of a "reserve currency" in the post-1971, post-gold era. Maybe they're silly questions, but I believe terms are sometimes throw about without being defined.

Journeyman (1/21/2001; 15:01:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 46074)
CORRECTION!! @Farfel, PH in LA, auspec, ETC.

Apparently auspec was right! I'm a poor and deluded shell of a poster, believing I could draw fire from both sides by attacking "Dubya" AND Clinton AND ALGore with my woefully inadaquate and completely impotent post yesterday.

O.K. I concede. I promise never to attempt to diss these folks in the middle of a hostile crowd ever again.

However I'd like to point out to Farfel and PH in LA that NEITHER Bush NOR Gore got half of America's votes. The last census put the population here at about 280 million and only a total of a little over 100 million votes were cast for both these candidates combined.

So, who ever it was that "won" did so with a little over 50 million votes. Simple math shows that:

1. Total non-voters overwhelmed total voters by a healthy 180% margin.

2. The winner, who ever it was, won with the approval of only about 50 million divided by 280 million or 17.9% of the population.

3. Clearly non-voters completely swamped the voting competition by any measure you choose to use.

Regards,
Journeyman

P.S. In case you think our opinion doesn't count unless we register to vote, _still_ only a little over 50% of those registering actually voted. So by the most optimistic measure, the winner has the support of no more than about 25% of the population motivated enough to become registered voters.

Take that!!


auspec (1/21/2001; 14:49:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 46073)
megatron
I've got gold & hope, you've got gold and are "hope"less. I can live with it. Best to you!

Pandagold (1/21/2001; 14:34:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 46072)
It's that man again





Sorry, but I can't help but admire him - he's got guts.
I suppose, though I never fully realised it, that I have a tendancy to like who the media tell me not to like. I wonder why?


Baghdad booms as Saddam turns sanctions into gold

Jason Burke in the Iraqi capital finds Saddam stronger than ever and a class of entrepreneurs exploiting the UN embargo to make fortunes

Special report: Iraq

Sunday January 21, 2001

Khalil Al-Suhail has a problem. If he opens his restaurant too early it fills up with Western businessmen and he cannot seat the local officials whose influence he needs to keep the place open. But if he raises the fake drawbridge of the Castello - Baghdad's latest fashionable nightspot - too late in the evening the staff will not get the tips they have come to expect and they are likely to mutiny.
But al-Suhail knows it is not much of a problem. Jammed in the road outside the four-month-old fake fort are rows of Mercedes, BMWs and Japanese 4x4s. Most of his tables have been booked for days. 'I've been in worse situations in the last 10 years,' he says. He smiles and crosses his arms and his silver watchstrap reflects the neon that glares from the false battlements above.

He is not alone in his high spirits. From the nouveaux riches sampling the Castello's châteaubriand to the beggars who have barely tasted meat in a decade, everyone in Baghdad agrees that things are looking up. Once, the city's streets were full of rubble and stank of sewage, rotting rubbish, violence and fear. Now - as the trade embargo imposed after the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait moves into its 11th year - they are full of traffic, brightly lit shops and consumer goods. There are still spots of appalling misery and deprivation, but everyone says things are changing, that the worst is over, that they have survived.

In fact, they have done more than survive. Baghdad is now a city where $35,000 cars are bought within minutes of being driven into showrooms, where women in leopardskin coats and miniskirts go to the National Theatre to watch the latest avant-garde plays, where you can get a PlayStation2 without waiting, where the cafés are full until late and markets open around the clock.

Baghdad is also a city that is proud: proud of having survived the sanctions, proud of having survived three bouts of bombing by US and British planes, and proud, above all, of the man whose heavy, jowly features are on a wall in every office and classroom, on a corner on every street, on 20ft-high posters, placards and banners, on book covers, newspapers and magazines.

Last Wednesday - the anniversary of the start of the air war in the Gulf - Saddam Hussein, now 63, received a 21-gun salute and addressed the nation on television. He spoke of the great victory won in the Umm al-Marrik (Mother of all Battles) against the 650,000-strong allied forces 10 years ago. The victory, he said, was continuing and growing. The Iraqi people, and the Arab and the Islamic worlds, could expect further greatness in the years to come.

Saddam's satisfaction is understandable. Ten years ago he was a pariah. Defeated militarily and diplomatically, his economy was in tatters and his hold on power looked shaky. Now everything is different.

The 500-mile-long road from Jordan to Baghdad cuts across one of the bleakest, hottest deserts in the world. Only when you reach the Euphrates, after 10 hours of driving, does green begin to spatter the dirty, blasted monotony of sand and rock. But, though long, it is a surprisingly easy drive. The road from the Jordanian capital of Amman may be crowded, bumpy and narrow, but once across the border, and past a recent statue of a sword-wielding Saddam on a rearing horse flanked by four flaring Scuds, you hurtle along a new six-lane motorway complete with laybys and picnic spots.

On the old road that still runs parallel, a stream of trucks and tankers rumbles west. They are carrying oil, dates, grain and dozens of other products out of Iraq and out of the United Nations- imposed embargo. Soon the sanctions-busters will not even need a road. Two or three times a week flights take off from Amman for Baghdad - again a contravention of the UN resolutions. Similar flights, all supposedly banned under the sanctions, are planned from Egypt and, it is reported, from Moscow.

There have already been flights into the newly re-opened Baghdad airport from almost every Gulf state. There have been planes from France, Italy and, indirectly, America and the UK.

The marbled lobbies of the five-star hotels in the capital are now packed with businessmen fighting over lucrative contracts. Two months ago 1,450 firms from 30 countries laid out their wares at a trade fair. Ironically, the US company SmithKline Beecham was selling its drugs at an exhibition last week to combat 'depression/anxiety, panic and obsessive compulsive disorder'.

At a government level, Iraq has signed new commercial agreements with Turkey, Russia and Libya. There have been secret negotiations with the Syrians, themselves suspected of receiving huge quantities of smuggled oil by rail in recent months. Last week the details of a huge, new trade treaty were being thrashed out with Cairo.

Even British companies have been negotiating with the regime. One consortium recently opened an office in Jordan - as close as they can get without breaking the embargo - so they are well-placed when the nation with the second biggest oil reserves in the world officially opens for business once more.

'The sanctions are crumbling,' said Professor Humam al-Shamaa, a key government economic consultant. 'They are becoming a joke.' Few, even in Whitehall and Washington, can honestly disagree with him. For four years after the Gulf War the Iraqi people suffered terribly. Many across Iraq, particularly in the south, are suffering still. UN reports suggest hundreds of thousands, particularly the young and old, died as a result of the embargo. Five years ago Saddam agreed to a deal that allowed him to sell oil as long as the earnings, placed in a UN-administered account in New York, were used to buy food and medicine. Much of the cash is soaked up by payments to the UN and war reparations to Kuwait. Red tape, and alleged wilful hindrance, have meant that shortages, particularly of drugs, are common.

The result has been serious damage to the country's health. And though the dying children in Iraq's hospitals are cynically exploited by a wealthy regime to impress visiting journalists, in many cases the UN supervisory system has failed. Permission to import equipment used to treat cancers - for fear of use in weapons programmes - is denied. But it is those weapons - and Saddam's unwillingness to reveal their details - that are at the root of the problem. If, the British and American governments say, Saddam allows international inspectors to check he is no longer able to make nuclear, chemical and biological weapons of mass destruction, then the sanctions will be lifted. They have hinted that the 'no fly zones' in the south and north will be ended too. But while the rest of the world is aiding the collapse of sanctions, Saddam has little incentive to make concessions.

One Western diplomat told The Observer : 'The British and the Americans have painted themselves into a corner. They can't lift the sanctions, because it will hand Saddam a major victory. But the system is collapsing anyway. Either way they'll end up looking like fools - and stupid, vindictive [fools] at that.'


Before Khalil al-Suhail invested in his restaurant he did some market research. 'Soon I knew I'd be fine,' he said. 'I knew I could rely on "embargo gold".'

The harsh truth is that the sanctions, in addition to inflicting suffering on millions, made many very rich. Uday, Saddam's psychotic eldest son, has run the bulk of the regime's oil-smuggling operation and made his father one of the richest men in the world. Sources estimate the dictator's wealth at more than £3 billion.

Through contracts and franchises handed out to associates, a wider circle of loyalists has made a fortune. Thousands of young Iraqi entrepreneurs have taken advantage of the distortions in demand and distribution caused by the sanctions - almost always with a nudge and a wink and a pay-off to the regime. The rationing system maintained under the 'Food for Oil' programme has allowed big farmers to make huge sums selling grain and other commodities. And the huge reconstruction projects - such as the motorways - have made many more rich.

Support for Saddam among the majority of Iraqis - despite his well-known brutality - is in no way diminished.

The al-Hashemi family are the sort of people Western planners hoped would oppose Saddam. Intellectual, politi cised, educated (and even with vital military connections), they remember 'the good days' before the wars and the sanctions.

'We have suffered a lot in the last 20 years,' says Mohammed, now a government servant whose $25 monthly salary, added to the government food rations, just about keeps a decent standard of living for his five-strong family.

He is scathing about the 'profiteers' and 'merchants of war' who now comprise Baghdad's elite. But he says - and given that he only agreed to meet in secrecy (his name has been changed) he is probably telling the truth - he is now a supporter of the President. 'As the grip has tightened on our country more and more, we have got closer and closer to our leader. He is now the embodiment of the spirit of our nation and we are proud of him.'

Such support is unlikely to erode soon. For a decade Iraqi schoolchildren have learnt about the great victory of Saddam over the vicious, Muslim-hating, neo-colonialist West. In recent months Saddam's prestige has been boosted by his outspoken support for the four-month-old Palestinian uprising.

At Friday prayers last week at the 700-year-old shrine of Sheikh Abdul Qadeer al-Gilani in old Baghdad a packed congregation heard a sermon condemning to hell those who stood by and allowed their fellow Muslims to be harmed. It was a sideswipe both at those who ignored the Palestinians and those who have failed to support Iraq. Afterwards the imam, Sheikh Afif, told The Observer that the Iraqi people had showed 'the patience of Job' in their suffering.

He recited an Iraqi proverb. 'A journey of a thousand miles starts with just one step,' he said. 'We started directly after the American and British aggression. Now our thousand miles are nearly travelled. Our victory is nearly complete.'













Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2001


AUtistic (1/21/2001; 14:13:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 46071)
How Perfect---- PH & Leigh&etc. etc.
Fighting like siblings in your backyard, while the neighbor kids sneak in & steal the very toys that are the seeming objects of your squabblings.Ever hear of DIVIDE & CONQUER?????????????

megatron (1/21/2001; 14:11:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 46070)
auspec
'Hoping' is a foolish waste of time. Gold is not.

Peter Asher (1/21/2001; 13:57:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 46069)
@PH and auspec

auspec: hopefully I will be able to desist in responding after this post and avoid your contemplated "medical intervention" I shudder to think of what mind numbing disablement you might send me by the more permissive via of E-mail. (:-))

PH has again raised the issue reverberating across the land of the fact that 50% +500,000 folks cast there vote for "That other guy." While that "popular majority" may boast of this as a proof of what is best for all of us, it can just as well prove the opposite. I hold this truth to be self evident to all who per Al Fulchino are "a person who sees what they see." Gore won the popular vote because the majority of the vote casters were blinded by their inability to see through the smoke screen of manipulated data and opinion. To me the fact of that majority vote is proof that we live in dangerous times. I personally believe that an "An act of God" is a composite of the power of good-willed beings to jointly effect their spiritual intentions. It follows that they do not have to be in the ‘majority' to do so.

Mr Gresham (1/21/2001; 13:51:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 46068)
Sometimes...
it's just better to not say anything.

Ahhhhh, grasshopper...

auspec (1/21/2001; 13:38:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 46067)
megatron
Per your post: "They are all sociopaths and your only defence is gold and offshore.PERIOD. It does not matter ONE IOTA what his 'beliefs' are to you and me."

I respectfully disagree. They are NOT all sociopaths, any more than all internet posters are internuts. Gold is a great defense, but it matters a great deal to many what our 'leaders' believe. It matters to me! You are welcome to speak for yourself, but please don't presume to speak for the entire Forum. The term 'Oligarchy' is an expression of the reality of the situation, however much anyone approves GWB. My mind is open to what he may be able to accomplish in spite of not caring much for George 1. Some of us are blindly accepting, some moderately skeptical, some extremely cynical. Such is life.
Got Gold and Hope?

Peter Asher (1/21/2001; 13:27:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 46066)
CavenMan, Leigh, Al, Farfel, ET, PH

First to address CM on the subject of Forum subject. Gold as money, storage of value or vehicle for capital gain is joined at the hip to humankind's economic activities. In our current time there is a rather rampant tendency amongst many, to want to get "something for nothing." The vias to obtain that are, in simplistic terms, crime or the political process. Ergo, in a world of "I vote to tax you" the political process directly affects economic exchange and it's true lynchpin, Gold

Now PH in his, PH in LA (01/20/01; 20:43:50MT msg#: 46031) says "But if the votes don't get counted to everyone's satisfaction, what legitimacy does an official have, anyway?" Good grief, man: How many elections will fit on the head of a pin? Do we vote on whether the vote was acceptable and then vote on that vote ad-nauseam in a process of democracy run amuck? But here is perhaps the crux of the economic crises, Where is it written "Satisfaction Guaranteed"?

When PH "IN LA" says, >>>Did you agree with (Bush) when he said yesterday that the power industry can count on him to do everything in his power to circumvent existing environmental laws on clean air to give power companies, and investors in power companies, even more right to pollute our air? Isn't the right to breathe the very air on our planet something we owe to every living thing of God's earth? Isn't that more important than any ‘investor's rate of return'? <<<< We have the key to the dilemma. Here is the California, screaming for a clean environment, unable to sustain an emergency relief order by complying with a requirement to conserve only 5% of their usage. Then when they are offered salvation by a relaxation of standards (Hopefully temporary) to stave of economic disaster, the provider of the solution is attacked. Brings to mind a quote from the last energy crises "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem."

Los Angeles along with the rest of the State, is becoming the "under glass specimen" of people demanding someone else be responsible for their needs and wants. Just for a start, there are the decades of being sustained by long standing water rights to the Colorado river. Other peoples water provides the life blood to the city even while destroying in-State environments such as the Former Salton Sea, now a salt encrusted cesspool due to the river that fed it being deprived of most of its water before it gets there. This lays the ground work for the mind-set of needing to be contributed to.

I totally agree with PH regarding "Isn't the right to breathe the very air on our planet something we owe to every living thing of God's earth?" But, the answer to that does not lie in the way of the modern Democratic party, of demanding the solution be provided by someone else's production.

All sorts of clean technology exists to create abundant clean energy, the combustion of hydrogen leaves only water a byproduct, Micro-Sats CAN be put in orbit to beam down solar energy. Solar powered desalinization plants can be built as a water source, with the byproduct of mineral extraction included. The barrier is "Cost effective" and that is the exact blind-spot of our society.

The major negative of the capitalistic, free-market system is the failure to deliver what is needed for the common good. Homo-Americanus sees the solution as tax and spend thy neighbors money. What is ignored is the extent of existing and potential productivity that goes into the reward of legal but parasitic activity. Every dollar that goes to non-productive capital gain, every potential producer rendered incapable by drugs and inept educational methods, every hand idled by day-trading and other activities rendered glamours and entitled to by the brain washing of television and it's accompanying social malaise; this is all part of a gigantic, untapped productivity that could create a world of debt free, clean-aired economic fulfillment. What is needed to bring this about is a major advancement in the state of ethics and responsibility throughout Mankind.

Even if yesterdays fine and elegant words were not said in total true intention, it would be far better to see them as an inspiration for us all to follow nevertheless, rather than denigrate their inspirational image with statements such as "prating, braying, blubbers and empty platitudes."



auspec (1/21/2001; 13:17:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 46065)
Catharsis Continues
Intervention Required
Time For Medication!

megatron (1/21/2001; 13:15:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 46064)
our new 'friend'
I'm finding it quite perplexing and comical the perceived
reverence for George from ANYONE who has hung around this site for more than 5 minutes. The minute the man spewed out the perfunctorial crap about the bible and religion it seems half of you got all 'warm and fuzzy'. THEY ALL SAY THAT!!!!! WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN!!!! They are all sociopaths and your only defence is gold and offshore.PERIOD. It does not matter ONE IOTA what his 'beliefs' are to you and me.
Does anyone not understand this?

auspec (1/21/2001; 13:08:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 46063)
Socialist Redistribution Systems
Ramble {not Rant
Washington D.C., California, Atlanta City Hall, the mindset of at least 50% of Americans. Take your pick whether you want to be dumbed down or beaten down. Or you could join the Cultural War and lend a hand to gaining victory for truth and free market forces, as all on this prestigous Forum are doing.

Scoop for the day----- GATA closely reads and follows FOA {what a shocker!}.

Note---- Believe I heard GWB use the term Democratic Republic one time, but heard the term Democracy endlessly. Anyone else hear these terms. We must fight for our Republic as just being a Democracy will only further entangle us with a world government. The severely watered down US Constitution stands in the way still.

For what it's worth--- IMO GWB is as decent and honest a man as we've seen in MANY decades as US President. He is however trapped in the center of the Oligarchy frequently mentioned on these pages, and these forces are much larger than he. W can hold back the clock a bit with various judicial appointments, etc; whereas Algor would have accelerated the time schedule to the entire breakdown of the Constitution. Will take the victories small and large. They may destroy America, but the American spirit will live on.

As far as Hill in 04, I say "bring her on" for a repeat performance of the goofy candidate Michael Dukakis. That plastic grin of hers is really going to look special with an Army helmet on. I earlier vowed to leave under a hill presidency, but now think it would be too much fun to miss.

Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (1/21/2001; 13:05:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 46062)
ET your post said it well, however, if I may correct a common fallacy.....
Breaking out of a routine is harder to do as one becomes older, and also as knowledge is lost to the passage of time. Nothing currently demonstrates this as the manner in which rice is grown in the USA.

Rice is one of the rare grain crops that can be grown in a submerged field. It has in the distant past and will continue to be grown that way for the foreseeable future in Asia for instance. The land in which it is grown is too wet for much of the growing season in order to raise other grain or vegetable crops. Pressure on fine Asian cropland (by western standards) has been intense for hundreds of years. Coupled with that fact and the reality of the predictably seasonal monsoons, the blessing afforded by a grain crop that can be grown on such otherwise agriculturally poor land is obvious. Much protein is added to a diet which would otherwise be devoid of protein by the opportunity to polyculture the rice crop with fish. This makes sense for Asian farmers and others with similarly poor land.

The rice farmers in Kalifornia,USA are indeed a breed apart. They artificially create the submerged cropland on which to grow their rice for one of two reasons. The first is that thats the way it has always been done! The second is because it is cheap weed control and cheap irrigation. Of course it is cheap as you well pointed out because of government subsidy at the expense of all taxpayers and the average citizen who must pay their water bill in Kalifornia!

The saddest thing about this situation is the utter irony it represents. Less advanced cultures use an abundant resource (water and naturally saturated land) to raise a crop vital to their survival. While the advanced culture mimics the practice of the less advanced culture in raising the rice in submerged fields, on otherwise arable land, at tremendous cost in taxpayer $$$$ to supply that water, IT IS UNNECESSARY!

Unnecessary, since rice, like wheat and corn, grows beautifully on the same cropland. It is only because rice is able to grow while submerged, that it is grown that way in Asia.

PH in LA (1/21/2001; 13:02:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 46061)
Replies to the conservatives, Farfel and Leigh
OK Farfel,

You think you have something new to say about any of this political rubbish? So why don't you say it! Otherwise, leave me alone. Yesterday was the day that Dubya was sworn in and this "special day" was being wallowed in by several posters. Princess Leigh found it a "bright and happy" day. You, yourself, seem to think that Bush was elected by 50% of Americans. But of course, this is not true. You (and James Baker) can say it as often as you like (repeating the big lie ala Goebels and company), but it will never be true. Never! Not ever.

The truth is that Gore got more votes than Bush did.

So I probably speak for more people than you do. I say what I like. And I don't need your permission nor your approval to do so.

As I have tried to articulate, (and as you seem unable to comprehend) I do not care in the least whether the irregularities in Florida might have, or might not have given the election rightfully to Gore. I care far less about that than you do, or Leigh or Peter.

What I do care about is the behavior of the Republican party.

"Stop all that counting, right now! It's not fair. Etcetera, etc. etc."

This is just not behavior that I am prepared accept without comment. Even if it is over.

Beacuse it's not over. Having gotten away with it once, it will now become normal behavior from now on. We can expect nothing but more of the same from now on. Count on it! And all because people like you accept it.

Now, Leigh:

How feminine! Stand up and call people names, then disappear hoping that everyone will jump up and defend your idiotic ideas. Well, I'll tell you why it didn't happen.

Because they are idiotic ideas. You cannot find one word that I have ever spoken, written or otherwise expressed about the power situation in California. Period. Not only "don't (you) know whether (I'm) a sore loser or not", you don't have the faintest idea what I think about the power situation in California at all. Whatever seems to you like grasshopper behavior is solely and completely the product of your own unoriginal imagination which has obviously been inflamed by the mere fact that I live in California. You might inform your imagination that Mr. Farfel also lived in California for years. Does that make him a "grasshopper", too?

It also appears that someone has taught you that "name-calling, properly done, can be the most elegant of arguments because the writer has torn through layers of fluff to get to the heart of the matter." Let me assure you that your own name-calling has failed to tear through the heart of anything at all since the only fluff involved is that created by your own poor imagination. Furthermore, you might be well-advised to control your "knee-jerk reactions to perceived unkindnesses "both to Peter and to the legions of conservatives who were rejoicing at that very hour over the new administration" by considering what I said to Farfel above: The legions you so blithely invoke represent less than half of Americans who voted in the last election. If you want to worship arithmetic, you should consider that Al Gore (with all his shortcomings as a candidate) actually got more votes than your shabby hero, George Dubya. With those numbers in mind, I was probably articulating the thoughts of more people than you and your legions. As if I need some justification to express whatever I think. Here. Or anywhere else.

ET (1/21/2001; 12:18:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 46060)
Thomas J. DiLorenzo
http://www.mises.org/fullstory.asp?control=592&FS=California%27s+Enemy%3A+The+State

From the article;

"California's periodic water "crisis" is another unnatural disaster caused by
government regulation. The big problem is that most of the water in the
state has been regulated for decades by the Federal Bureau of Reclamation,
which heavily subsidizes the irrigation which delivers water from the
northern part of the state to the bone-dry southern part. (Seventy-five
percent of the water comes from the north, whereas 75 percent of the
population is in the southern half of the state).

"Some 85 percent of the water is used for agriculture and is sold at
government-imposed, below-market prices. Some farmers pay as little as
$3.50 per acre foot for water that costs $100 per acre foot just to pump
through the government-run irrigation system. At these prices it is
"economical" to grow cotton and rice in the desert, even though the
Mississippi Delta and the rice paddies of Vietnam are more natural habitats
for these crops. California grows prodigious amounts of both.

"Government-subsidized water use for one purpose alone -- irrigating
pastures for grazing sheep -- exceeds the water used for all other purposes
in California, residential and industrial. In one recent year $530 million in
taxpayer dollars were spent on pumping this water to sheep ranchers when
the gross revenues of the sheep ranching industry in that year were less
than one-fifth of that amount, $100 million.

"Meanwhile, cities throughout the state suffer such severe "water shortages"
from time to time that government toilet monitors have been employed to
enforce three-flushes-a-day regulations. (I am not making this up).

"The Federal Bureau of Reclamation's crazy central planning scheme is the
main cause of California's periodic water supply crises. As with electricity,
only a free market in water can put an end to the insanity."

auspec (1/21/2001; 11:52:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 46059)
Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape
Welcome SLATT
Welcome to a new cyber home- may your retirement years indeed be golden {wonder how that expression came about?}.
Thanks for your thoughtful "Gold Odyssey" post, makes me wish I hadn't felt compelled to put up a farcical Odyssey. Maybe they'll give me another entry.....naw, I'll stand pat.
As per Euro "backing" with gold, believe it is actually 15%. Of course it is not a real backing because there is no exchange available, but worthwhile nevertheless. As per the country with brand new leadership {figureheads to a degree}, what is happening with our reserves? Clearly leaving port to defend the US Banana, for who knows how much longer. Those presses are not running at capacity because all is well in River City. Makes me worry a bit that all of 2001 will not be available for cheap accumulation. Hang tight,Al!
This is a fine site upon which even my irreverence has been largely made welcome, and we in turn welcome your insights. Spend as much time as you can in Archives and HOF as they are there for good reason, if I may give a piece of advice.
Best to you.

canamami (1/21/2001; 11:43:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 46058)
Reply to ET and general points
Environmentalist extremists need to hide the cost of their policies, lest they lose public support very, very quickly.

I'm surprised that such instrusive power regulation exists in the US and that there is not some legal remedy for the power companies to use against the California state government. Perhaps the current, more conservative Supreme Court would be willing to (re)visit this issue? I believe that the limitation on impairing the obligations of contracts has been given some new life.

I may skip the current contests due to time pressures. Further, I have trouble making sense out of the current gold picture. There are a number of plausible theories and hypotheses, but I don't have the background or the time to ascertain which one is the most true.

Quaere what is a "reserve currency" in post-1971 period, where no currency is gold's alter ego, and where gold no longer serves as a form of mandatory settlement on other central banks? To what degree does the IMF mandate the use of the dollar? What role can other strong fiat or SDR's or gold serve, per the IMF statutes and other international arrangements?

ET (1/21/2001; 10:45:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 46057)
Chad Reichle
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/reichle1.html

From the article;

"If we had deregulated consumer prices, this would not have happened. We have plenty
of power, but since it's artificially cheap, we use more of it. So the obvious alternative
to the State shutting down people's power randomly is allowing people to buy the
power they want or need. There is no need for rolling blackouts except as a political
tool to convince the unaware that more State authority is the solution.

"Ladies and gentlemen, those of you who haven't "got it" yet, this is a fundraiser. As
Harry Browne is fond of saying, the State has broken the legs of the power industry in
California and is now attempting to foist crutches upon them so that it can claim credit
for the solution to a problem that would not exist but for its machinations. These
Soviet-style shortages (rolling blackouts) are the result of a policy more designed to
increase the State's power than to actually "provide" power to anyone."

"The consumer groups are rabidly accusing power companies of terrorism and
encouraging the Governor to use the National Guard to intimidate the power
companies into selling their assets (thus removing their ability to do business), and
lower their prices (thus putting themselves the rest of the way out of business). This
would also have the effect of establishing California as an official police state. Papers,
please? House-to-house searches for generators?

"Have no doubts, those making these suggestions (using the military to forcibly control
industry) are Fascists, in the most basic way. They are arrogant, self-righteous,
power-mad control freaks. The so-called consumer groups here in California are
separated from Nazi Germany only by racial rhetoric and fashion sense."

auspec (1/21/2001; 10:33:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 46056)
Lady Leigh
Hey Leigh,
This guy meant NO criticism whatsoever of anything you posted yesterday. I'm sorry that that was somehow conveyed to you. You have nothing but the most sincere motives in my simple mind. As far as to coming to your defense- you were defending your cause so nicely, there was no need. Another gentleman squirmed a bit under your "name-calling" and protesteth a bit much, but I saw no other castigation from anyone else.
Farfel pretty much summed it up in his post earlier today. What a lot of us struggle with is the REDUNDENCY of certain posters and arguments as if endless repetition is going to accomplish something. I have had several opportunities during discussions to make what I felt were important and explanatory points to he who represents an opposing viewpoint, only to have these explanations ignored or totally dismissed. My response--- time to move on as opposed to continuing to thrash that dead carcass with a corresponding dead mind and ears.
As far as to my possible objection to name-calling, please re-read my post yesterday "One More For The Rhodes". It can be quite divisive, but IMO it can also be a clearcut form of communication. I only stand up for the west coast guy's right to speak out, as I certainly also do your's. Now if you used the term "loser" or "Grasshopper" 26 times we might need to drop a few hints for you {smile}.
Best to you-- Go Lady!


Pandagold (1/21/2001; 10:25:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 46055)
****2001 -- A Gold Market Odyssey ****

****2001 -- A Gold Market Odyssey ****



First I will give the basis on which my premise on the trend of POG in 2001 is based. Though it may seem a little long, it is necessary to understand, and evaluate, the reason behind what has been happening, is happening, and is about to happen to that ‘barbarous relic’ as termed by Keynes, at least, in the way I (and my money) see it.

Gold is first and foremost a political metal and, therefore, dependent on ‘the government's’ overall agenda – and that covers a wide spectrum, not merely monetary or fiscal.

I am also using the term ‘government’ very loosely and not referring to any particular national government. The world has come a long way since there was any significant relevance concerning major international issues and individual national governments. And it (the relevance) grows less each day.

True, certain governments are used more than others, at particular times, in order to affect an agenda, in the same way that a carpenter or other tradesman might select the right tool, from his tool box, for the job in hand.

We currently look to the United States for direction, because that country, at present, (note I stress present) is the best tool for the job.

Sometimes a tool, through over use, can become less reliable, but, through habit, we find it hard to let go and replace though, for practical reasons, we see the need. Sometimes we can't replace it immediately as an alternative isn't available. (Are you beginning to follow the analogy?)

The international scene is, currently, in the process of metamorphosis. The US and the dollar cannot be replaced overnight. In fact, because of the present tenuous international financial and economic structure, only by treading slowly, and carefully, can any changes be made - as one would pass through a minefield if one hoped to reach the other side in one piece.

What we are now seeing is the ‘transfer of power’ from dollar diplomacy to Euro. The dollar is over worked and tired. The US by its, perceived, belligerence (depending on which side of the fence you are sitting) on the world stage has become an embarrassment, and hinderence, to those that are promoting and projecting the ‘new world order (though, they made it so).

The union of Europe, though a dream of many over the ages, is still an untried experiment in the process of development. So also is its new currency that doesn't take tangible form
until January 2002 (not too far away now).

Two large and nationalistic countries like France and Germany do not give up their beloved francs and marks lightly. They know that once done, it is almost certainly irrevocable. The key behind the success of the experiment has been to dip in one toe at a time – hence the wait for the actual surrender of the ‘national’ coinage.

There is also the tradition of currency backed by gold inherent in the European psyche. France, or should I say, the Frenchman, in particular, has a long historical love affair with gold, and a strong suspicion of fiat money. He has only to look, and reflect, eastwards at his German neighbour to know what can happen to fiat money in hyperinflation; then south to Italy where the lira has become a farce – an unemployed from the Bronx could almost make it as an Italian ‘millionaire’ with his welfare hand out.

Against this, we have Switzerland with its (so far) strong, gold backed, Franc and years of financial and economic stability.

As stated, we are in a transition period. Transitions, in general, take time – the transition from an agricultural society to an industrial one took a good century before it was firmly established. There is also a strange phenomenon associated with such transitions, the early days are hardly noticed, or identified, as radical change taking place. People are just aware that something is happening that is making them feel uncomfortable, and they hit out at anything in their way with which they are familiar and they can believe, or told to believe, is responsible.

There is not just ONE reason why the price of gold is manipulated – in this case – held down. Because of cause and effect, and one effect being another's cause, there is rarely just one reason for anything, and this is especially true in the world of economics and finance.

One of those reasons, though, and a main one, is that in order for the Euro to take root and grow strong, there must be no other drain that sucks away its food supply. If gold had been at the mercy of free market forces, where do you think the food (money) would have been sucked– long before now? Certainly, I am sure you'll agree, not by the Euro.

This would be a disaster for the whole European experiment. Though it may have delighted many, in particular, the proverbial, goldbugs.

Remember, I stated that there is never just one reason. Time does not allow me to cover other reasons, but there is a number of other important ones which has allowed those with the agenda, to get a lot of mileage from this particular ‘deceit ‘.

Because we are posed with answering the question – will 2001 be favourable or not for gold, the transfer of power from the dollar to the Euro, and the establishment of the Euro as a dominant reserve currency, is perhaps the reason offering the greatest influence.

The agenda, of which I have mentioned, is NOT something NEW. It is very old, it is just that it is now in its final, and most delicate, stage. If you accept this, then you will understand that very little is not well premeditated and, consequently, various scenarios and emergencies planned for.

For instance, it would be obvious the ‘manipulation’ would eventually become discernable and then VERY discernable. But even this, on the surface negative, could be turned into a positive (an art for which they have a penchant, and expertise). Big money outside the Cabal, the type that could have sent alarm bells ringing ( and software ‘flashing’), would observe the writing on the wall ‘KEEP OFF GOLD’, the power of the perpetrators recognised, and would find another outlet for the preservation of their wealth instead of fruitlessly complaining, and moaning about ‘what's happening to the price of the precious metal’.

We have seen a dramatic rise in the other key PM.s, some you hardly ever heard of
a decade ago. A number of weak excuses have been given for their apparent defying of gravity, but the most shallow is the one that they are used in the automotive industry – and this at a time we are seeing huge auto manufacturing cut-backs on an international scale.

Platinum and Palladium have been used for the preservation of ‘serious’ money to replace gold and silver. Reason? They are not, by tradition, political and not associated with ‘fear of inflation’, by the masses. The demand and activity in the physical has caused the paper dealings to flourish, allowing greater participation than would otherwise have been possible.

At this point, a word about silver would be appropriate. In order to diffuse the focus on just gold, and its manipulation, it needed a bedfellow – silver was the appropriate choice. It really is as simple as that. It is embarrassing now, but how would it have been, for the manipulators, if silver had also been reaching for the stars?

So, wither gold in 2001? This year will be the turning point for gold to start catching up on some lost ground. The hold will be released a little, and in the process there will be some volatility – not wide swings, but swings.

The Euro should reach dollar parity, and be showing strength by the end of summer. The dollar will be obviously declining. There will be volatility on the stock markets to keep people guessing, and keep many ‘locked in’. Mining, along with other commodity shares will be moving up which will seem strange as there is a perceived general economic slowdown – especially in the US.

What will really be happening is that serious money will be taking its positions ready for the great march forward again, but this new economic era will not be in a way that repeats the past, and not with the US calling the shots – or should I say, the US being used as the voice that calls the shots. (Detect the subtle difference?).

What we should never do is to let what appears to be the negative blind and frustrate us so that we don not see the positive. In Chinese, the character for crisis is also the same as for opportunity. We will eventually see that what has happened is good for the gold industry. It has forced belt tightening, searching for cheaper methods, and amalgamation – something that has been going on in other industries for some time.

2001 will see the worst over for gold and the mining companies that have stayed the course and are now leaner, meaner, and through acquisitions, bigger and stronger

The POG, I expect to finish up 2001 around $300 to $350. However, there will be much volatility, for a number of reasons, and some swings may appear wide, but when viewed on at least a five-year chart will be seen more in context.

.2002, however, will be the year that really provides the rewards for those who got in early while the blood was running in the streets (or down the mine shafts) and we should see gold up in the $400's.

While this is still below where it could, and should, be (there will always be manipulation, though perhaps more covertly) we must remember that the mining companies will now have a lower cost base and therefore be more profitable, and highly responsive to any gold price increase.

I will leave you with the following:

"………………..You have to chose (as a voter) between trusting to the natural stability of gold, and the natural stability, and honesty and intelligence of the members of the government. And, with due respect to those gentlemen, I advise you, as long as the Capitalist system shall last, to vote for GOLD."

(George Bernhard Shaw)


Peter Asher (1/21/2001; 10:22:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 46054)
ET, Galearis

ET, thanks for the Ryan McMaken article. Weel said, that.

Galearis: Re--"When ONE has to watch what ONE does or says in relation to ONEs (pun intended), THEN ONE can start defining ones political environment in terms of fascism."

That makes the "Politically correct" phenomena specifically Fascism. Thanks for enabling me to put it in it's proper perspective.

ET (1/21/2001; 10:10:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 46053)
Lew Rockwell
http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/business-cycle.html

Business-Cycle Primer

by Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr.

Sometimes it's painful to read the business press, and never more so than during an
economic slump. Reporters flail about for explanations. They quote stock analysts,
politicians, day traders, other journalists, and even, from time to time, academic
economists. But they never seem to arrive at anything approaching an explanation.

If you are purporting to examine the merit of various anti-recession measures, you
surely need some explanation of the recession's cause. The most common attempt at
a theory has something to do with consumer confidence. The press likes this one this
year, because this is the Clinton administration's theory as to why, day by day, the
economy becomes weaker.

You see, Clinton's spokesmen have repeatedly said that the incoming regime is
threatening recession by the mere fact that Bush and Cheney are talking about it.
Remarkable. Bush isn't even president yet and the Clinton crew is blaming him for the
economic conditions of the past two quarters!

The idea is this. If consumers believe the economy is headed down, they might save
instead of spend. The business sector, afflicted with the same fears, doesn't invest.
The two forces merge to create a decline in overall demand for goods and services,
and, next thing you know, it's straight into the economic gutter.

So is there anything to the "talk theory" of recession? As Frank Shostak has pointed
out, this theory implies that underlying economic reality has no meaning. Whether we
are rich or poor depends on our collective state of mind. A recession becomes
nothing but a national bad mood.

On the same theory, you could also claim that the economic boom of the 1990s was a
result of happy talk from government officials. And maybe, based on this idea, the
best way to avoid recession is to turn off our radios, televisions, and computers. We
should just sit back and meditate on government press releases. That'll keep the boom
going.

Gosh, maybe we can talk our way into perpetual prosperity. If only we knew the magic
words, we could print them in a book and ship it to the developing world where they
can all talk their way into prosperity too. Maybe there should be jail sentences for
naysayers, who, after all, threaten the national well-being.

Does it sound absurd? Of course. But the business press, woefully uneducated in
economic theory and relentlessly biased, reports it straight, as if those pushing the talk
theory of the business cycle might not have a political purpose in mind. And that
purpose is obvious: deny the reality of the situation and promote an illusion of truth.
That's the Clinton way.

Another theory going the rounds is that business cycles are like Clemenza's theory of
familial war from Godfather I: "This thing's gotta happen every five years or so – ten
years – helps to get rid of the bad blood." And sometimes there seems to be a
superficial plausibility to the idea. But to say something happens in cycles is not to
explain it; it is only to observe the obvious.

Business cycle theories are legion and they come and go. But the only explanation that
has stood the test of time was first advanced in 1912, in Ludwig von Mises's
masterwork, The Theory of Money and Credit. Elaborations on the theory, by Mises
and his student Hayek in the 1930s, culminated in the Austrian theory of the business
cycle.

The theory begins by observing the profound effect that interest rates have on
investment decisions. Left to the market, interest rates are determined by the supply of
credit (a mirror of the savings rate) and the willingness to take risks in the market (a
mirror of the return on capital). What throws this out of whack is manipulation by the
central bank.

When the Fed feeds artificial credit into the economy by lowering interest rates, it
spurs investments in projects that eventually don't pan out. For example, the high-tech
and dot-com manias resulted from a decade of sustained money growth via lower
interest rates. When the Fed stepped on the brakes to prevent prices from rising, it
prompted a sell-off, and hence a downturn.

What's tricky to understand is what can't be seen. Just because prices aren't going up
doesn't mean the money supply is in check. Just because people in some sectors are
getting rich doesn't mean that the prosperity is on solid ground. Just because the stock
market is going up doesn't mean that the architecture of investment (to use James
Grant's phrase) is in good working order.

Right now, conventional wisdom says that the Fed needs to flood the economy with
money and credit. But as we can see, it is precisely this path that created the problems
to begin with. Besides, Japan tried this trick in the 1990s, even lowering interest rates
to zero, without effect. No Austrian economist was surprised when the Fed's dramatic
intervention this month produced no lasting effect on the markets. Clemenza is correct
to this extent: there is bad blood in the economy and it needs to be drained.

There are ways to make recessions easier to endure. Cutting taxes is one of them.
Getting rid of regulations that hinder enterprise is another. The outrageous hounding of
Microsoft among many others facing the antitrust guillotine, as well as the many
trumped-up suits against businesses for "racism," must stop. These are prosperity
killers. The purpose of freeing the market is not to stimulate demand (as Bush's
advisers seem to think) but to unshackle entrepreneurship and permit the consuming
public more choice in using their money.

As you can see, this theory is at once too sophisticated and too clear
for most business reporters to grasp. They aren't interested in reading a
dusty old treatise on monetary theory. Neither, I'm afraid, are Bush's
economic advisers. But at least Bush's intuitions are on track. A big,
immediate tax cut won't stop the slide, but it will cushion a hard
landing.

January 19, 2001

Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr., is president of the Ludwig von Mises
Institute in Auburn, Alabama. He also edits a daily news site,
LewRockwell.com.

Copyright © 2001 LewRockwell.com

ET (1/21/2001; 9:37:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 46052)
Ryan McMaken
http://www.lewrockwell.com/mcmaken/mcmaken16.html

Sorry - missed the link.

ET (1/21/2001; 9:36:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 46051)
Ryan McMaken

From the article;

Statistics on the federal law enforcement presence released last year by the Bureau of
Justice Statistics illustrate unmistakable increases in the numbers of federal agents,
prosecutions, and convictions. From 1997 to 1998, the number of federal criminal
court cases increased 13 percent. The number of people brought to trial by federal
police increased 12.7 percent from 1997 to 1998. The number of federal
law-enforcement officers has increased from 69,000 in 1993 to over 83,000 today. The
number of federal inmates is up 90 percent since 1990 from 57,000 to 109,000 people.
Most of them are in prison for drug or immigration offenses.

Some of the statistics are attributed to the federalization of crimes that were formerly
state offenses (in itself a bad development), but much of it can be attributed to federal
police officers’ willingness to take on ever smaller and more insignificant cases.
According to the National Association of Criminal Defense lawyers, the threshold for
triggering federal prosecution has declined in recent years and continues to do so.
Smaller and smaller amounts of drugs are necessary to trigger possession
prosecutions and businessmen from smaller and smaller companies are being harassed
for hiring the and firing the "wrong" people. Federal agents have fewer and fewer
qualms about shutting down businesses who do not sufficiently cater to the special
interest groups to which the DOJ has been pledged to serve at any given time.

This is the federal law enforcement situation that the next Attorney General will inherit.
It is a federal department committed not to protecting the rights and property of
individuals. It is committed to disarming Americans, harassing them with unending
legal intimidation, and sanctimoniously denouncing as "criminals" anyone who doesn't
openly embrace their edicts and their interpretations of federal law. It is difficult to see
how the very existence of the Justice Department and the office of the Attorney
General is at all congruent with the philosophy of American rights and liberties.

John Ashcroft may be a fine man, but it is unlikely that he will ever be able to truly
combat a bureaucracy so committed to spying on, harassing, and prosecuting average
Americans of average means. After a decade of expansive federal law under Bush I
and Bill Clinton, it is impossible for any ordinary person to know what is expected of
him from the federal government. The millions of pages dedicated to governing the
actions of every small businessman, every worker, and every citizen are impossible to
follow. Ashcroft's enemies question his ability and willingness to enforce the laws of
the United States. They complain that he may be unwilling to browbeat the American
people into accepting the legislation wrought by urban intellectuals, recipients of
corporate welfare, and hysterical loudmouthed "activists". One can only hope that they
are right.

Galearis (1/21/2001; 9:35:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 46050)
@ ET re fascism
that recent fascism question
Apologies for the lateness of my response to yours of yesterday.

You said:Yes - what you say is correct if your assumption that the US government is functioning as a democracy or representative republic is correct. I would disagree that this is the case. The US government seems to be controlled and has been for quite some time by banking interests. We are led to believe our votes count, etc., but there seems to be little evidence that those we elect represent those that elect them. It would seem the banking interests purchased this government at least 90 years ago or so and haven't relinquished control to the masses that I've been able to determine. This government seems to be a corporate/banking dictatorship controlling commerce, social policy, and above all monetary policy.
*****************
I do not wish to dismiss your views with a brief response, but I am on the run today. What you say is indeed the case, however, this character of democracies, that vested interests (government and non-government)are more in control than the electorate is a constant throughout political history (of world democracies) regardless of jurisdictions. Welcome to the real world. In other words, what you see is not only what you get, it is as good as it gets (more or less). One cannot get rid of corruption and vested interests - even the individual citizen voter has those. But when a government ceases to have to pay a political cost for its policies, then the citizen will start to have grounds for complaint and worry. The first stage of this is often an oligarchy structure - when the system "devolves" in form gradually. A right or left wing revolution of extremism can precipitate the problem immediately of course. Or one can elect an extremist right or left wing government democratically and they can restructure within to maintain appearances while the process is corrupted. We had this event in Ontario very recently.

You in the US have and have had this process go on in state legislatures too. Note however, that a feeling of disenfranchisement is not necessarily symptomatic of the reality.

Gotta run; duties call.

Galearis




Belgian (1/21/2001; 8:22:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 46049)
Thirty Years of Dollar and GOLD .
While staring for hours at these 30 yrs-charts...can we give correct explanations, for rise and fall of both ?
Is there an economic logic behind the 5-10-5 yrs (1980/2000) move of the US$-index ? 5-up / 10-down / 5-up.
Is there any relation between these up/down-waves ?
Who dares to pinpoint the exact reason, why, the world wants him and, why, they don't want it anymore ?
Each individual on this globe changes his/her opinion on
"store of value" in the relation to mass-trend. It takes too much effort to "argument" " WHY " we do this or that.
A trend starts, develops and ends. Arguments are time-consuming, and not anticipative. Perception is the only force, that makes trends happen. Fear and Greed are the fences. Trust and value are reason. Price is perception.

Economy is the result of the emotions of the masses. Economy has little to do with mathematics.

Looking at both, dollar - POG, 30 yrs charts, give the perceptual feeling that they are out of synchronisation.
30 yrs is most probably not enough time, for coming into harmonic balance. Some fragments of these 30 yrs, do inter-relate. But are not confirming the Big Picture.

Each one of us is daily confronted with the same question :
what to do with the excess paper, after having satisfied all consumer-needs ? This is the vital perception point.
We do not use our reason here, but look at what people around us are doing. We listen to their story, buy it and act upon it. The trend has started.
POG, between 250$ and 350$ is....still a continuation of the existing down-trend. A 13 yrs downtrend, within a 21 yrs downchannel. Nothing, but the 350$-price is going to change this trend and its dominating perception.

We are convinced that our arguments are rocksolid for justifying, our early (?) anticipation. Are the past 30 yrs, giving us enough evidence, for being resolute ?
Is it the US$-dominater or World-economy, who's going to trigger the perception shift ? Can the gold-procers, force a turn-around of the down-trend ? What are the consequences of a strong revaluated Gold-value ? Shift from dollar-hyperconcentration to Gold-hyperconcentration is another creation of imbalance ? The dollar has the capacity of destructing itself, by destroying the bad dollars for the good ones. Will Gold function as a transitionnal value ?
Is Gold, panic-affective ? The dollar plunge of 1985, resulted in a slim Gold-doubling. What is different NOW ?

Cavan Man (1/21/2001; 7:58:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 46048)
Politics Discussed at a Gold Forum
Beginning about the time of the November election and with the ensuing controversey, I have a new perspective on the discussion of politics to wit:

"Leave the endless and divisive discussions about political matters to the politicians, the very rich and, the underemployed. Take good care of your business and your family."

Cavan Man
2001

I'm off to Divine Liturgy....

Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (1/21/2001; 6:19:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 46047)
****2001 -- A Gold Market Odyssey ****
I believe this year will be very positive for gold. Both from the standpoint of a higher price and greater acceptance of gold ownership. More people will realize that they were forced into risky financial endeavors, all of which were truly out of their control. They were forced into financial speculation; the stock market, real estate, collectibles etc., because they could not afford to merely save their increasingly worthless fiat money. Inevitable inflation quickly robs their fiat money of all value, long before they reach their retirement age. Those people that realize this in the first place, and were lured into the purely speculative pursuits under the guise of increasing social acceptance by the Orwellian triangulation of repressive taxation, unrelenting pied piper investment propaganda from entertainment portrayals and news media "reporting", and the freedom afforded to the "little" investor to trade with the Big Boys by the internet, these people will become strong proponents of gold and silver.

It is those people who never felt comfortable with the risk they were assuming by feeling pressured and in reality forced to risk their savings, the collapse or continued slow devaluation of the stock and real estate markets will be a bitter pill to swallow. They will slowly move into the political arena demanding the only answer that history has ever supplied to people in such a situation. That answer is simple: Money has to have INTRINSIC WORTH in order to maintain a STABLE VALUE for social justice to prevail. The fraud of fiat money forces good people to gamble with their savings, just to try to stay ahead of inflation to maintain the purchasing power of their savings.

The system we now have forces the earnings out of the hands of those who work, into the hands of others. This loss of control over ones destiny is most cruel to those who would be content in merely SAVING what they earn. More people will realize that the Euro is backed by 10% gold for sound reason, not gimic. They will also take notice that government to government transfer of wealth is performed with gold, not the fiat money the average person is forced by law to earn and spend. It is this realization as expressed in our political system that will return our country to where the founding fathers launched it; with a monetary unit named a dollar that is fully backed by gold or silver on demand.

The fruits of ones labor from 40 years past will again be as valuable as if that labor was performed today. With a dollar fully backed in gold and silver this will occur even if the money has been kept under the mattress for the past 40 years. This is the honest way of "buying time", in which to reflect on a life lived in comfort and honor, and financially able to further invest in the next generation.
The more people run away from the past, the quicker the past becomes the future. Truth, like fact, always prevails. Gold is forever.

Boxman (1/21/2001; 5:51:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 46046)
lord of the rings
http://www.lordoftherings.net/
For you Lord of the Rings lovers, I found this on the Timebomb 2000 site. Thanks to Carl Lilly. Enjoy, providing you haven't already found this site.

<<Any Tolkien fans out there, the official website now has the movie trailer up... me and my boys are drooling waiting for the first to be released in December

Edited to add that word has gotten out, and you may have a hard time trying to access the clip, their server can't keep up with the requests Try again later tonight or tomorrow.>>

Mike


Leigh (1/21/2001; 5:45:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 46045)
PH, auspec, Mr Gresham
I waited until this morning to respond to everyone's posts. I was really hoping that someone would come to my defense; instead, I see that I am still being castigated for name-calling.

You guys, I believe that garrulousness (wordiness) does not necessarily equal intellectualism. Or rationalism. Often it is the sign of someone who hasn't boiled his argument down to a few simple points. Name-calling, properly done, can be the most elegant of arguments because the writer has torn through layers of fluff to get to the heart of the matter. (This is NOT to say my post yesterday was elegant; it was a knee-jerk response to a post that was unkind both to Peter and to the legions of conservatives who were rejoicing at that very hour over the new administration.)

PH, I don't know whether you're a sore loser or not. But it was tactless of you to write what you did yesterday. You weren't going to change anyone's mind, and you took some of the brightness off a very happy day for many people. However, you DO sound like one of Black Blade's grasshoppers, and for that I do not apologize. As for California being willing to purchase power from other states (versus stealing it): if California were willing to pay what the market demanded, if the utilities' credit were worthy, and if other states felt that they could spare excess power, it seems that a mutually acceptable arrangement could be made. However, California has DEMANDED that other utilities give up their power, and (judging by your comments) its citizens STILL don't seem willing to have power plants in their area; this is why people are resentful of California.

Auspec and Mr Gresham, please judge motive before you criticize.

Thank you.


Knallgold (1/21/2001; 3:45:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 46044)
TrailGuide,what if if not?
Given your age you revealed here (I guess between 50 and 65 years,you don't sound like a retired man JUST working in the garden,you seem to tend also the Golden flower in the professional world.Or do guys like you never retire???),anyway,you think Comex will default in the not too distant future,and assuming you don't wanna miss that one ;-]
What will happen in 2004 when the ECBanks are going to review the Washington Agreement and Comex did NOT default?

I can understand that the present Gold pricing system has to die on its own weight (BTW,what does paper weigh?),but what if those 95% western thinkers will still be happy with buying paper substitutes (sounds like prostitutes..) and yet the system is not going to deliver anymore cheapest physical Gold to those like you and me ready to buy tonnes of it?Or did I answer my own question ?

The Invisible Hand (1/21/2001; 2:45:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 46043)
Off topic (or is it?): NG and Y2k
http://www.webpal.org/list.htm
Date: 21 Jan 2001 00:12:47 -0000
Mailing-List: ListBot mailing list contact Y2KFIND-help@listbot.com
From: "Y2K People Finding People" <language@webpal.org>
Delivered-To: mailing list Y2KFIND@listbot.com
Subject: Missed Opportunities
Sender: Y2KFIND-return-220-44953900@listbot.com

Y2K People Finding People - http://www.webpal.org/list.htm

Missed Opportunities

Times and situations have come and gone.
As I have repeated ad nauseum in these letters -
I was never a Y2K believer in TEOTWAWKI
although even Y2K was a bit milder than I expected.

But I thought there was great potential for catastrophe
in July of 2000
as we led up to the Millennium Conference in September -
which was a Great Flop,
as I said it would be if we did not have the catastrophe first.
….
Before Y2K I said that we wouldn't see gas problems -
showing up until March 2000.
I wrote an article saying that Natural Gas was the Smoking Gun.
Problems now occurring -
but the Nay Sayers have convinced everyone that it wasn't Y2K
and the microprocessors.
(Beach when will you come off that?)

But - less natural gas -
less electric generation -
higher electric costs -
more plant shutdowns -
more employment layoffs -
maybe even effect on the controlled stock market.

Some would blame it on Bush -
others on Clinton -
none on Y2K.
But what is the problem?
Sudden more demand for natural gas?
(Nope not as much being transported).
Less natural gas in the ground?
(Nope - the Lord's still left it all there.)
Less ability to get it out.
(Not so - say the Nay Sayers).
Just a political - market - schmoggle.
(You think?)

But not to worry -
in spite of the fact that there has been a RECESSION
EVERYTIME a Republican administration has taken office
for the last EIGHTY years.
Who said "it was the economy stupid" -
it MUST have been because of the democrats before them.

But, what, "Me Worry?"
Not me - I am with Alfred E. -
and besides I have bigger worries.
Doomers never die,
they just find something else to worry about.

Lots of things for a doomer.
…
Bruce Beach
survival@webpal.org



SteveH (1/21/2001; 1:38:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 46042)
Thanks Al
and a humerous repost from ge.

nasdaq optimism, why?
(kirk) Jan 21, 00:31

A friend of mine recently gave me his theory for stock market optimism. After being rewarded for almost any trade made on the nasdaq,these investers thought that they had it all figured out. Their confidence increased with every profitable trade. Now that the bubble is broke, they still think their methods of picking stocks are sound. Nobody told them that" even a turkey can fly in a tornado".





lamprey_65 (1/21/2001; 1:21:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 46041)
Shermag
Yes, you are correct...we have fallen far, indeed.

Do not weep for us, though - we are will only reap what we have sown.

I learned recently a very illuminating tidbit. According to a friend - the last year an average family of four could afford to support a family on one income AND own their home AND be able to send their children to college was...

1963.

Silver was taken out of U.S. coinage in 1965 (the year of my birth). The "guns and butter" policies (Vietnam and the "Great Society") of Johnson began during this same time period.

Our culture is now unbelievably course. Our children, for the most part, are poorly educated. Our military can't find enough recruits (Oh, we've recently made the black beret of the U.S. Army Ranger -- who EARNED the right to wear it -- the standard headgear for all soldiers...it's going to help with recruiting, you know <give me a break>).

As you observed, we can't even provide ourselves with sufficient amounts of energy.

Yes, we're in trouble, but 50% of us are not surprised in the least. It's the other 50% who are in for the rude awakening.



Farfel (1/21/2001; 0:34:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 46040)
@PH in LA...DROP IT!
You are sounding like a pathetic bitter old man (aka a curmudgeon), and your rant against the Republicans is tired and redundant.

Why don't you follow the good advice of all your fellow Democrat heroes, who urged Americans to drop the issue of Mr. Clinton's abject irresponsibility and moral turpitude, and who succeeded in keeping the impeached criminal in office?

Mr. Bush is now your new president, we are starting with a clean slate, drop your ad nauseum rant about electoral malfeasance and all the rest of your childish complaints, because you owe it to the 50% of the nation that voted for Mr. Bush to put the recent elections behind you.

If you do not see the analogy between Americans' acceptance of the Clinton presidency and Bush's election victory, then you are blinder than blind. But just as Democrats screamed at Clinton antagonists to stop visiting the past (namely the Lewinksy blow jobs), you best follow your own party's advice and stop returning to the election topic. Otherwise you prove that you are no different in any shape or form from the Republicans you so despise.

Thanks

F*



Shermag (1/21/2001; 0:25:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 46039)
Peter Asher, First look at Dubya
I too recently had the opportunity to see your new President for the first time in an interview. It was last evening with Barbara Walters on 20/20. I had similar impressions to yours. He seemed to present himself with a sincerity, humility and self assuredness that led me to see him as likeable. In response to the question " What do you see as the impression that you will leave with the American people?" (if I recall the questiuon properly) He stated " I believe I will be seen as someone who is comfortable with who I am." He certainly left me with that very impression. He also did not to me ever indicate that he deserves any reputation as being a bit "slow" and "not so bright".

Here's hoping that he will not dissapoint.

Shermag



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