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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 6/21/2000
All times are U.S. Mountain Time
(Yesterday's Discussion.)
Leland
(06/21/00; 23:44:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 32710)
From Jay Ambrose...Some Honest Newspapering...
June 22, 2000 12:00 a.m. EDT http://www.nandotimes.com) - Perhaps when it investigates the
nation's oil refineries, the Federal Trade Commission will discover they colluded to send
gas prices skyrocketing in the Midwest, but if the FTC is honest, other findings are a
thousand times more likely.
For one thing, the FTC will learn what the Detroit News and other newspapers already
are reporting, that the refineries did miscalculate by waiting for the cost of crude oil to go
down before building up their inventories. They then got caught with inadequate
supplies. Theirs was a gamble that backfired on consumers whose demands in the
summer driving season have helped send gasoline prices in some cities higher than
$2.30. That is not the same as collusion, however. That is not illegal price-fixing.
Without too much detective work, the FTC will also find that OPEC's earlier tightening of
supplies was made especially grievous in the Midwest because of busted oil pipes. And
by simply opening their eyes wide, the FTC agents cannot help but notice what may be
the chief culprit, the Environmental Protection Agency, which has required reformulated
gas with ethanol in a number of Midwestern cities.
The Congressional Research Service, in a study publicized this week, says the EPA
dictum accounts for at least 25 cents a gallon of the cost surge. The blend, it seems, is
tough to put together and is costly for a variety of other reasons noted in press reports,
including the fact that a company called Unocal has a royalty-requiring patent on the
least expensive ways to produce reformulated gas.
If there is going to be an investigation, here is what really needs investigating - these
newly instituted clean-air policies that may do more to clean out wallets than to clean up
the air. Reputable critics have argued the new rules will benefit public health either not at
all or scarcely at all, and some governors and members of Congress have called for
their suspension.
But other politicians will utter no such words. They have supported the EPA policies and
are not about to concede error in an election year. Instead, these politicians are
scapegoating oil refineries that happen to be subject to competitive pressures and
probably could not pull off a price-fixing conspiracy even if their executives were willing
to risk a possible consequence of that activity: prison time.
President Clinton's press secretary was quoted as saying that holding the EPA policies
at fault "just doesn't stand the test of logic." But what seems illogical to a Cato Institute
analyst and others is that the oil refineries are guilty of anything more than seeking to
stay profitable, which, the last time we looked, is one of the things businesses are in
business to do.
(Fair Use Protections Apply.)
TheStranger
(06/21/00; 21:33:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 32709)
In Which Reports Of Inflation's Death Are Called Premature
Those tiptoeing back into the big tech names these days are doing so just incase the Fed's work is done. Don't you believe it. Recent reports indicating a slowing economy are only partly true while reduced inflation pressures are part anecdotal coincidence and part bureaucratic legerdemain. Inflation is permeating the economy now in ways that simply cannot be reversed while unemployment still hovers near 4% and oil clings to $30 a barrel. Sure, the Fed may do nothing on this go round, but, trust me, their work is not yet finished.
The greatest irony here is that the one area where a real slowdown has probably begun is in technology. Remember, growth alone will not hold a hot stock aloft indefinitely. It is the ACCELERATION of growth which is required, and the days of growth acceleration are long gone for the PC. Meanwhile, dot coms are quickly piling up on the ash heap of history. Just today, the whole industry was dealt another blow when a hacker successfully shut down Nike's site for an extended period. Never before has so much money been so mal-invested in so short a period of time. Just think of all those people trying to get even, and then consider that most of them almost certainly never will. (That includes you, Regis Philbin).
At the very time when improved productivity might have afforded Americans a lower cost of living, errant Fed policy has brought inflation back to life. Over the summer, I suspect we shall be treated to reports of still higher trade deficits and spreading price increases. The Fed will have no choice but to continue to raise interest rates, even though it's an election year. Those who do not understand the investment implications of this scenario will no doubt pay a price.
Goldsun
(06/21/00; 20:46:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 32708)
Secret Soros & Safra Stuff
http://users2.50megs.com/mysite/coverups/secretsoros.html
Interesting 1996 article. The author has a definite leftist bias, but the information seems fairly credible.
Comments on the reported gold pump-n-dump? That took place before I took my place at the round table.
Goldsun
ax
(06/21/00; 20:35:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 32707)
BMG added to Gold Mine Data
6-21-00
This is a modified repost from 6-13-00 whereat some comparative listings of p/e ratios and dividend yields for
some gold mine companies were listed. Below Battle Mountain
Gold is added.
Gold Mine Data ( with BMG added)
Some comparative data on some gold mining companies:
As of May 26, 2000:
P/E Ratio /// Dividend Yield
Battle Mountain Loss /// 0.0% since 2-02-99
Newmont 46 /// .5 %
Barrick 19 /// 1.2 %
Anglogold ads 13 /// 8.1 %
Franco-Nevada 29 /// 1.7 %
Placer Dome 21 /// 1.2 %
Homestake 68 /// .7 %
Rio Tinto ads 16 /// 3.6 %
Freeport B 37 /// 0.0 % since 12-9-98
Freeport A 16 /// 0.0 % since 12-9-98
As of June 13, 2000 on the JSE *
Gold Fields Ltd 19.65 /// 1.86 %
Harmony 11.52 /// 2.86 %
Anglogold ord 15.13 /// 6.71 %
*( due to recent market movement the div yields could have been somewhat
higher and the p/e ratios somewhat lower on May 27,2000 as is the case
with Anglogold
included in both time frame groups to illustrate this difference )
Journeyman
(06/21/00; 19:19:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 32706)
Inflation misdirection @TC, ALL
When we're talking inflation, it's good to remember (I know most posters here do) that prices CAN'T go up on, oh, let's say labor UNLESS prices on other things decrease equivalently. Well, that would be true if there was a relatively stable amount of circulating "money" and money substitutes. You might think of this as the law of the conservation of money.
If prices rise across the board, as they are, this means there has been an increase in the amount of money and/or money substitutes in circulation. Why do "they" imply pay increases are the cause of general price increases - - - which couldn't happen without more money or substitutes? Where did the extra money and money substitutes come from? (A rhetorical question, of course!)
Regards,
Journeyman
aunuggets
(06/21/00; 19:02:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 32705)
Listing of Biblical references to "gold" by chapter & verse
http://wwwboard.net/bbs1/NuggetShooter's/messages/975.sht
Good reading reference for a rainy night. Enjoy !
HI - HAT
(06/21/00; 18:30:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 32704)
Town Crier..msg. 32692......Witch Doctor Watch
Headline: Fed officials say US economy is still growing too rapidly
The blow-hard witch doctor Federal Reserve Board officials naturally will want to cause a little pain here and get some blood sacrifice as per usual from the over-jobed underclass.
Well, between the dollar exchange rate, trade deficit, inflation, etc., they are between a rock and a hard place.
Just so , they should be real careful on what stretch of the trail the apple-cart tip's, because if the morons are going to riot like in LA over good news, it sure is going to be interesting to see the reaction to bad news.
HI - HAT
(06/21/00; 18:07:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 32703)
Town Crier msg. 32694..........The savings man and interest on tax
Pirates.......now is the time to come out of the closet
Brother, it looks as if you and Aristotle, are going to be spot on right, regards holding the wealth gold "discreetly", before this is over with.
Playing the game above board is getting to be like buying a ticket to the theatre of abuse.
The Governmental Class organized crime wave is getting to the point of Control Central Absurdity.
They want total control and their "take", from the unwashed slaves.
The spectacal has become one of watching their filthy hands reaching in and grabbing chunks out of the pie with no regard to having a mannerly proper function slice.
They are desperate. They are morally bankrupt. See if they don't fall, and break their backs.
Hill Billy Mitchell
(06/21/00; 16:21:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 32702)
Official release
http://www.bog.frb.fed.us/releases/H15/update/
Official: Federal Reserve Statistical Release
Release Date: June 21, 2000
Rates for Monday, June 20, 2000
Federal funds 6.49
Treasury constant maturities:
3-month 5.79
10-year 6.03
20-year 6.25
30-year 5.90
upside-down spread FF vs long bond = (.59%)
Hill Billy Mitchell
(06/21/00; 16:12:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 32701)
Leigh and RS
RS (6/21/2000; 13:52:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 32690)
Question - "how would anyone "do away with gold", except by confiscation?
HBM from the hip: In the context of Ezek 7:19, the gold simply would not buy anyone out of (deliver from) the Wrath of the LORD, ergo in the sense of delivery from, not the 'Beast', but delivery from the fierce anger of the LORD, the gold in THAT DAY, would be worthless to them. I purport that this would not apply to members of the body of Christ who will be removed from the scene just prior to the unleashing of God's wrath. If one plans to be here for this great event it would be of grave concern to him/her. My point for the 'body of Christ' is that there will never be a time prior to that great event when gold will not be the great deliverer, all talking head arguments to the contrary.
Question - "Is it possible that the original scripture refers to paper money rather than precious metal coin and was translated to read, "gold"?
HBM from the hip: RS, you either have done your homework or else you have some very uncanny perception. I have done just a little research in the Hebrew text (between jobs) and the first thing I noticed is that the Hebrew word "keceph" is translated many times as silver and many times as money. I lean toward the true meaning being silver metal in Ezek. 7:9; however I have a goodly number of hours in study yet to perform before I would come to a definite conclusion. Concerning the Hebrew for gold here translated I must put you off. You could be right but I am inclined to think that the gold is the physical stuff, coin or otherwise.
Leigh (6/21/2000; 12:56:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 32689)
The reason I am staying with the disdain of gold in this "end of the age", "Day of the LORD'S wrath", is that those who once thought they could count on gold to deliver them find it to be worthless as a ticket from this new danger. The new danger new dread is much greater than anything the "Beast" could impose upon them. When the "wrath" is unleashed all other considerations will be of little consequence in comparison to a way to escape from the wrath to come. The only way of escape would be deliverance prior to the arrival of the wrath or to be among the remnant of Israel who will be miraculously protected by the sign on their forehead and or by the place of protection which God has promised to provide for them.
This does not preclude the clear scriptural point you make that a digital mark will be required in advance of the "Day of Wrath"; however should the "Beast" confiscate precious metals in conjunction with this, all 'physical metal' would not be gotten by him due to his lack of omnipotence. Plenty of individuals would keep their hidden hoard for future delivery from capture only to find that they need delivery from the "wrath of the LORD", not delivery from the wrath of the Beast" Please, you may ask questions and make your points as you like, I do ask that you not hold me to these rambling thoughts as I will have been studying these things for many years and only feel sure about a few things thus, I call my comments "from the hip".
We are dealing with two distinct contingencies here:
1) deliverance from the control of the "Beast"
2) deliverance from the wrath of the "LORD"
I consider deliverance from # 1 above to be possible via physical gold holdings, whether an edict of confiscation is issued or not.
I consider deliverance from # 2 above to be an impossibility via physical gold holdings, period.
A.W. Pink is the man.
More later.
HBM
JavaMan
(06/21/00; 16:09:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 32700)
Leigh, HBM, RS...
And he causeth all, even the small and the great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hands or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he who had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Revelation xiii. 16 - 17
It appears the rich will be as the poor if they do not posses the mark of the beast. Under this scenario, money of any sort will be useless without the mark. Keep in mind its not your "money" that the beast will be interested in.
RS
(06/21/00; 15:33:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 32699)
Leigh........ my mistake. Thanks for your response!
That'll teach me to divide my attention between work and 'net discussion forums!
It is worth noting how often precious metals are refered to in Scripture, usually as a standard of value. Imagine that.
It's a privilege to share in the discussion at this forum, though I don't have much to contribute personally.
Best wishes to all, and may we (someday) see the day when honest money is restored to this great nation.
SHIFTY
(06/21/00; 15:25:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 32698)
NY Ponzi
Nasdaq 4,064.01 + Dow 10,497.74 = 14,561.75 divide by 2 = 7,280.87 Ponzi
UP 56.63 ponzi points
Leigh
(06/21/00; 15:17:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 32697)
RS
About your second question: The word "money" is used lots of times in the Bible, for example, when Jesus said, "When your money fails...." These verses seem to specify gold and silver. HBM, how's the research coming?
Al Fulchino
(06/21/00; 15:13:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 32696)
Thanks
Knallgold (6/21/2000; 10:11:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 32681)
BMG and NEM merge
Thanks for posting that. I own both.....and couldn't be more pleased.
Leigh
(06/21/00; 15:08:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 32695)
RS
Read my first sentence again.
TownCrier
(06/21/00; 14:59:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 32694)
The tax man and interest on savings
http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?ptitle=U.S.%20Economy&s1=blk&tp=ad_topright_government&T=markets_fgcgi_content99.ht&s2=blk&bt=blk&s=AOU_aJRURRVUgdG8g
HEADLINE: EU to Bargain With U.S., Switzerland, and Offshore Tax Havens Before Taxing Savings
At issue is banking secrecy and whether there should be automatic tax withholdings of approximately 20-25% on earned interest on accounts.
After losing out to price inflation and the tax bite on generated interest (not to mention Fx risk), there's really not much appeal to be found in bank accounts these days. As a tax-free exchange, it sure is nice to have gold as a savings options.
Leland
(06/21/00; 14:39:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 32693)
It Just Keeps Going Up and Up!
Oil&Gas Journal
Online Story (Jun 21, 2000)
Top Stories
Petral: Inventories, regulations responsible for Midwest gasoline crisis
During the past few weeks, officials from the Clinton Administration and other government bodies have
publicly criticized the US refining industry's performance and response to the surge in conventional
and reformulated gasoline (RFG) prices in the Midwest. Petral Worldwide Inc. (PWI), a Houston-based
consulting firm, has analyzed the situation and concludes that low inventories and tighter
environmental restrictions are responsible for the price spike.
PWI analyzed the underlying causes of the rapid rise in gasoline prices in the US Midwest. The
analysis focused on RFG production rates from refineries in the Midwest and Gulf Coast and RFG
inventories in the Midwest.
PWI says its review of statistics published by the US Energy Information Administration indicates that,
nationwide, RFG inventories have been steady at 40-45 million bbl and are in line with 1999
inventories. Based on total US RFG demand of 2.4-2.5 million b/d, RFG inventories are equal to 17.5
days of supply.
Midwest markets, on the other hand, have only 2 million bbl of RFG inventory compared with demand
of 300,000 b/d, says PWI. RFG inventories in the region are equal to only about 6 days' supply.
"Effectively, RFG markets in the Midwest have very little usable inventory and rely nearly exclusively on
daily RFG production from local refineries and from refineries in the Gulf Coast [region]."
EIA statistics indicate that RFG production from refineries in both the Midwest and Gulf Coast declined
by 50-60,000 b/d beginning in mid-May.
"Gulf Coast refineries are the primary swing supply sources of RFG for the Midwest and the East
Coast," said PWI. "Since Midwest markets have virtually no spare RFG inventory, the decline in Gulf
Coast RFG production quickly created supply shortages in the Midwest markets.
"This analysis shows that EPA was unprepared for RFG supply problems in the Midwest," the firm
concludes. "The decline in refinery RFG production is directly related to EPA's insistence that stricter
RFG regulations be implemented as scheduled on June 1. Furthermore, EPA officials denied all
applications for temporary waivers to stricter RFG regulations."
(Fair Use Protections Apply.)
TownCrier
(06/21/00; 14:36:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 32692)
Inflation Watch in the U.S.A.
http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?T=special_news2.ht&s=AOUlPexRyRmVkIE9m
HEADLINE: Fed Officials Say U.S. Economy Is Still Growing Too Rapidly
At a speech last week in Vienna, Austria, Richmond Fed Bank President J. Alfred Broaddus said prices beyond those of food and energy have shown signs of accelerating, and that "Labor shortages are now widely reported in a number of sectors and industries. On their present course, U.S. labor markets will eventually tighten to the point where competition for workers will cause wages to rise more rapidly than productivity, which sooner or later would induce businesses to pass the higher costs on in higher prices."
Raising another cautionary note while giving a speech in Grand Rapids was Chicago Fed Bank President Michael Moskow, saying "Increased productivity growth raises our potential growth, which represents the supply of goods and services we produce domestically. There's evidence that demand has been outstripping even this higher supply, and the presence of this imbalance has been an important factor in recent monetary policy discussions and decision."
TownCrier
(06/21/00; 14:19:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 32691)
Inflation Watch
http://quote.bloomberg.com/pgcgi.cgi?T=markets_newsfeat99.ht=&ptitle=EMU%20Top%20Stories&touch=1&s=AOVD68BZ1SXJlbGFu
HEADLINE: Ireland to Introduce Measures to Combat Inflation Within Days
With a 0.7 percent rise in consumer prices during May, year-on-year price inflation in Ireland has been lifted to 5.2 percent...which Bloomberg reports is the highest level seen there in 15 years.
Members of the Irish government said they would take measures to "remove restrictions on competition and curb price increases," indicating that prices were aggrevated by "anti-competitive activity and profiteering" in sheltered sectors such as beer prices in pubs that currently enjoy legislative protection from competition. Higher prices were also said to be a result of the rising cost of oil and tight labor markets. Sound familiar?
RS
(6/21/2000; 13:52:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 32690)
Leigh..... if I may ask (re: your MSG 32689)
How would anyone "do away with gold", except by confiscation?
Leigh and HBM:
Is it possible that the original scripture refers to paper money rather than precious metal coin and was translated to read "gold" ?
Leigh
(6/21/2000; 12:56:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 32689)
Hill Billy Mitchell
I'm not a prophecy scholar at all, but it seems that "their gold shall be removed" does mean confiscation. It seems as though the Antichrist won't allow any means of payment except for his own digital mark. Otherwise people will have a means to buy and sell outside his system. So he'll have to do away with gold.
I'm looking forward to what Mr. Pink and others have to say.
Leigh
(6/21/2000; 12:12:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 32688)
Golds Revenge
Has anyone been paying attention to Golds Revenge's messages lately? They're getting more and more ominous! He's naming names. Today "Alan" was the one crossed off the list of bankers from whom he's getting his gold back. To follow the history of his postings, do a search of "Golds Revenge" on the Kitco search engine.
Hard assets...Easy access
(6/21/2000; 12:09:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 32687)
Centennial Precious Metals, Inc.
http://www.usagold.com/onlinestore/special.html
The value of gold-in-hand...
From 1933 to 1975 it was illegal for Americans--arguably the free-est people on Earth--to own gold. In the years following President Roosevelt's 1933 gold confiscation, however, there were legislative concessions allowing for the ownership of certain gold coins that have over time come to be recognized generally as the class of gold coinage minted prior to 1933. If you were an American in the 1960's or early 70's, and you wanted to own gold as insurance or an investment, these pre-1933 coins were your only option. So what was the market valuation of gold-in-hand?
On May 31, 1971, Barron's reported that the prior three years had marked a substantial increase in the value of certain gold coins. The cited that the U.S. "Double Eagle" had been selling at a 45% premium over its gold value in May 1968, and by May 1971 that premium had risen to 69% over its gold value. (The gold value at the time was officially set at $35 per ounce in defining the international dollar-convertibility for gold.)
In another example, the German Mark piece in May 1968 was selling for 75% premium, while in May of 1971 it had climbed to sell at a premium of 175% over the official gold value.
At nearly the same time, U.S. News and World Report indicated in its Sept. 25, 1972 issue that while gold bullion had been pegged at $38 per ounce as the official government price, the "free-market price in Europe recently has been nearer $65 or $70."
The moral of the story is to do what you can to keep your gold in hand.
Let Centennial assist you with all of your precious metals needs. It is your decision to do business with Centennial that makes this website possible. Thanks for your support--past, present, and future.
Twice Discipled
(6/21/2000; 10:55:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 32686)
Newmont buys out Battle Mountain
http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/000621/tx_battle_.html
The saga continues.
SHIFTY
(6/21/2000; 10:53:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 32685)
Beesting
I agree with you. I hold a good pile of the yellow. It's real, it's honest ,it's beautiful, it's GOLD!
SHIFTY
(6/21/2000; 10:45:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 32684)
Gandalf
THANK YOU!!
That makes sense. I think my problem understanding the whole deal was the wording. ( 35 shares of FN for every 100 GOLD common shares that they own.) They did not say in exchange for. I like this company and hope to keep it a long time.
beesting
(6/21/2000; 10:39:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 32683)
Gold Fields Ltd./Franco Nevada,,,A Good Case for World Monetary Valuations Denominated in Gold!
Hi Sir SHIFTY, a part of your # 32665:
<Goldfields Ltd/ Franco Nevada
I need help understanding this deal>
SHIFTY my friend, everyone needs help understanding these deals, because of the added complexity of converting locally used currency,(In this case Rand,Canadian Dollars,U.S. Dollars, and other currencies where the stocks of the 2 companies are listed.)and then converting shares(Another form of paper money)into the currency you the shareholder is familiar with.
To ease your worries,(I also have been thru this before)large banks and investment houses are also major shareholders in these companies, and have the money to hire lawyers, and accountants to make sure everyone involved(shareholders) gets the same approximate value for there share ownership after the merger(if approved), as they had before the merger.(if approved)
Even though the amount of shares held may change quite a bit.
Having said that, my understanding is,IF APPROVED:
1000 shares of GOLD will equal 350 shares of the newly formed company, if approved.New name GoldFields International.
Franco Nevada shareholdings will remain the same only the name of the company will change.
Goldfields International share value will be the same as Franco Nevada's after the merge is completed. As a shareholder you should receive a report from your company explaining everything in great detail.
Now what could throw some ice water on the whole deal is if the price of Gold skyrockets(don't laugh it could happen at any time) and the share of one of the companies rises disproportionately to the other.We'll see!
Part Two of Post:
Since the whole corporate world is in an international merge frenzie,involving many different currencies with constantly fluctuating values relative to each other, and the Euro may start trading internationally to further confuse things, I ask you;
"""Wouldn't it be much easier to openly value ALL currencies worldwide in relation to the current price of GOLD?"""
Didn't that system work from antiquity worldwide until 1971?
Hasn't history shown us(Thanks to FOA)that ALL paper currencies self destructed over time, when the paper was not backed by physical assets?(Gold or Silver)
The Fed,IMF,Worldbank, and others have purposely made currency conversion an instrument of mass deception in a currently almost infallible method of creating a money pump for themselves(Thanks ORO)and tracking the international flow of money with the ""PRETENCE"" that every one in the world is dishonest except themselves!!
The only thing that causes mostly honest people to think about becoming dishonest is unjust and unfair TAXATION!
Lets go back to using ""GOLD"" the only honest money the world has ever known!!!
Thanks for Reading....beesting.
Gandalf the White
(6/21/2000; 10:30:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 32682)
SHIFTY's Questions -- < ; - )>>
WHOA there SHIFTY -- I think I see where you get your "Handle"!! -- Let us go very slow and not slip off the rocky road. -- The first question was:
SHIFTY (6/21/2000; 0:58:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 32668)
Before the deal I had 5,700 Goldfields Ltd. worth about $22,000.00 -- What do I have now?
*****You have less total number of paper shares ! -- at the EXCHANGE rate of 35 FN for 100 GOLD (YOU MUST send in your GOLD shares (paper) and in return you will get FN shares (paper)! -- if you have 5,700 Shares of GOLD -- you will EXCHANGE them for 1,995 shares of FN !! -- That is what you have -- a nice nestegg!! --- now for the other question.
---
SHIFTY (6/21/2000; 1:30:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 32672)
I went back and reread my post. I don't expect to get any cash. I'm trying to figure out if the value of my investments went up ! Am I now or soon to be the proud owner of 1,995. shares of Franco Nevada ? If at some point ( I think in Sept.) when the new Gold Fields International is born do I end up with 7,695.shares? ----
*******WHOA -- see above !! -- yes, you have ONLY 1,995 shares of FN and no shares of GOLD -- When the new company is formed, (International Goldfields) -- you shall have ONLY 1,995 shares of that NEW company as the thought is that it shall be a one to one exchange at that point!
--
CONCLUSION => -- ONE does not always immediately gain on mergers of this type, -- BUT by such merger, is considered to be far better-off than separate companies could have been. -- I believe that the NEW company will continue MERGERS with additional smaller companies and become a much stronger company. -- THIS NEW COMPANY is NOW among the BEST of the PAPER gold mining companies.
<;-)
Knallgold
(6/21/2000; 10:11:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 32681)
BMG and NEM merge
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/000621/co_newmont.html
Some candys for the poor Gold mining share holders...
Jason Happy
(6/21/2000; 9:39:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 32680)
Hypothetical Gold Interest rates
http://www.geocities.com/bibleprophesy/goldrates.htm
Starting with gold at $850 in 1980...
03.0% takes us to over $1500 in the year 2000
06.7% takes us to over $3000 in the year 2000
18.5% takes us to over $25,000 in the year 2000...
Why these particular rates and figures? See the table and explanations at the geocities link above.
USAGOLD
(6/21/2000; 9:12:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 32679)
Today's Gold Report: All Eyes on Vienna
http://www.usagold.com/onlinestore/special.html
6/21/00 Indications
Current
Change
Gold August Comex
287.80
-0.30
Silver July Comex
5.05
-0.06
30 Yr TBond Sept CBOT
96~28
-0~14
Dollar Index June NYBOT
107.00
+1.06
Market Report (6/21/00) Gold was down this morning tracking opposite the dollar trend in quiet
trading. Gold demand has been buoyed in recent by inflationary expectations while the price has
been capped by low follow through volume on the COMEX -- the chief price setting mechanism in
the gold market. A four million barrel decline in U.S. oil stocks, as reported by the American
Petroleum Institute, is sure to stoke the inflationary fires in the United States and keep investor
interest in physical metal running at a steady rate. This could be double trouble for the American
economy when coupled with concerns that the publicized 2% increase in OPEC production might
not be enough to stem the run-up at the gas pumps. The eyes of the financial world will be on
Vienna today as OPEC begins crucial meetings on what it intends to do about oil production.
Meanwhile, in what appeared to be a 1970s deja vu, beltway politicians called yesterday for a
Congressional investigation into price gouging by the big oil companies. FWN reports gold
buying from Japan and quiet trading in London. Standard Bank of London characterized today's
London trade this way: "Gold seems unsure whether to move higher on the back of Fund buying
or lower in the face of producer selling and poor physical demand. Perhaps oil will hold the key
with OPEC set to decide if it is going to pump more crude to calm the rising oil price." That's it for
today, fellow goldmeisters. We'll see you back here tomorrow.
URUGUAY FIVE PESO UPDATE: We are toward the end of this offering. If you have an
interest in acquiring this scarce item, we recommend quick action. Orders will be filled on a
first-come/ first-served basis. We have less than 200 coins remaining. We would like to thank you
for supporting USAGOLD and making this offer a success. Order ONLINE( click above) or by calling
800-869-5115.
Leland
(6/21/2000; 8:29:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 32678)
Vronsky Never Ceases to Amaze me..
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_00/shulze062100.html
This one is by Terry Shulze...
elevator guy
(6/21/2000; 8:00:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 32677)
@Topaz
Thanks for your even handed, non-prejudiced reply. I dont feel like an outcast now.
Leland
(6/21/2000; 7:07:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 32676)
tedw, You may Want Your Secretary to Read This...
Talking Stock: Profit growth squeeze
By Philip Coggan
Published: June 20 2000 10:10GMT | Last Updated: June 20 2000 10:21GMT
Andrew Smithers is a well-known bearish commentator
who, together with Stephen Wright, produced a recent
book (Valuing Wall Street: Protecting Wealth in Turbulent
Markets) arguing that US equities are massively
overvalued.
Not a man to rest on his laurels, he has just issued a
research note on the growth of US corporate profits in the
1990s. He finds that while the return on equity has
doubled in the 1990s, the return on capital has risen by just 13 per cent.
The difference between ROE and ROC is caused by changes in depreciation,
interest payments, tax and leverage. It is these non-operating factors that have
driven the apparent rise in corporate profitability.
At least half the improvement in the return on equity has been prompted by lower
interest rates. These have meant that interest payments as a proportion of profits
have dropped from 40 per cent in the late 1980s to less than 20 per cent today.
That improvement has come in spite of the fact that leverage is close to a
post-1945 high.
Corporate taxes have also fallen as a percentage of profits. This is not due to a fall
in tax rates but, Smithers suggests, to a greater use of tax loopholes and
accounting techniques that inflate profits.
The first factor cannot be indefinitely maintained. Short term interest rates seem to
have settled down into a 4.5-7 per cent range but seem unlikely to drop to 2-3 per
cent. Corporate bond yields have started to rise, relative to government bonds,
reflecting the greater risks implied by more leveraged capital structures.
Similarly, while the ingenuity of accountants is never-ending, there comes a point
at which diminishing returns set in.
A good example can be found in the latest edition of Fortune, which highlights the
rise in earnings per share at IBM. IBM's eps have grown at an annual rate of 27
per cent since 1994, helping the company's market value to grow more than
sixfold.
But revenue growth has been just 5 per cent per year over the last five years and
gross profit margins have narrowed. Earnings per share have been pushed
higher by share buy-backs, asset sales and the strength of its pension plan.
Arguably, those three items should not be regarded as recurring income and
should not be used to justify a high p/e. Indeed, the market should put a much
lower multiple on profits derived from such sources.
Of course, quite the reverse has happened. As profits have grown with the help of
lower interest rates and tax payments, the market p/e multiple has risen.
The crunch will come when the market realises that profit growth cannot be
sustained at the rate achieved during the 1990s.
(From THE FINANCIAL TIMES (London), And Fair Use For Educational/Research Purposes Only.)
Black Blade
(6/21/2000; 6:37:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 32675)
Morning Wakeup Call! The battle wages on! OPEC decision today!
Sources: Various
THE FAR EASTERN FRONT:
Asia Precious Metals Review: Spot gold consolidates in thin trade
By Polly Yam, BridgeNews
Hong Kong--June 21--Spot gold consolidated at the U.S. $286 per ounce level in quiet trade in Asia on Wednesday, dealers said, adding bearishness was still prevailing. Spot gold could move lower in Europe and U.S. trading, they added. European players marked down silver prices early in European trading after the price hardly moved during Asian time, they said. Buying from Japan supported the price of gold early in the morning but the price failed to rise further on a lack of follow-through buying, dealers noted. Higher gold prices attracted more selling interest, they said, adding heavy selling interest is believed to exist around $288. Gold mostly traded at $286.20-286.50 per ounce in Asia but neither selling nor buying was active, they said. Gold's nearby support is set at $282 and resistance is at $288, dealers said. Spot platinum failed to build on its overnight gains in U.S. trading, as few Asia players wanted to open fresh platinum positions given recent price volatility, dealers said. Japanese players who normally dominate platinum and palladium trading in Asia concentrated their trading on the local Tokyo Commodity Exchange (TOCOM), they added. "The wide bids and offers for spot platinum and palladium have been keeping Japanese players away (from the spot market), as such a large spread can lead to huge losses," one dealer said. On the TOCOM, the yen's firmness against the dollar continued to depress the price of gold futures, dealers said, adding that a lack of fresh leads to support spot gold also encouraged investors to sell TOCOM gold. TOCOM platinum futures rose sharply Wednesday following the jump in NYMEX platinum futures in the U.S. overnight. Dealers said many TOCOM investors remained bullish on platinum as global supply was still tight. However, platinum's sister metal, palladium, fell on the TOCOM market on profit-taking after recent gains.
Black Blade: The turtle is still on its back. Get out the paddles, charge em’ up, and stand back, Maybe we can revive this sucker yet!
ABS data shows Australian mineral exploration spending at 7-year low
Sydney--June 21--Data released Wednesday by the Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS) showed that expenditure on mineral exploration had fallen to its lowest level in seven years during the January-March period. The ABS said that after 11 consecutive declining quarters, expenditure was at its lowest level since April-June 1993. (Story .23845)
Black Blade: Yep, and it takes a very long time to go from exploration to production. Look at the problems we have with petroleum, and correlate this to mining!
THE WESTERN FRONT:
Europe Precious Metals Review: Gold capped at $287, silver quiet
London--June 21--Gold prices continued to loiter around U.S. $286 per ounce in light trade Wednesday morning, perching above there mid-session to probe resistance around $287 before shirking away back to $286 again by late on. Silver eased below $5.00 in thin conditions, being pressured lower by the southbound 10-day moving average around $5.01, while platinum and palladium remained still at overnight levels. (Story .2270)
Black Blade: OOPS! I thought we had a pulse.
Commodities - Oil up, platinum hits 11-year high
NEW YORK, June 20 (Reuters) - Crude oil futures surged more than $1.30 per barrel on Tuesday on last-minute buying ahead of the July contract's expiration and on jitters that an anticipated OPEC production increase may fall short of expectations. Platinum futures reached an 11-year high amid tight supplies of the metal, which is widely used in automobile exhaust systems. Wheat futures closed higher as rain delayed the Midwest harvest and threatened to hurt the crop. In crude oil markets at the New York Mercantile Exchange, traders scrambled to buy back July ``short,'' or sold, positions before the contract expired. The contract peaked at $33.40, up $1.71 in volatile trading before closing at $33.05, up $1.36. ‘`It's the last trading day on July crude, so you are seeing some wild moves...but the market is also moving on uncertainty on OPEC,'' said a NYMEX trader. Crude oil for delivery in August was swept up by July's strength and rose to a session high of $30.84 before settling at $30.65, up $1.01. Oil's rise came one day before ministers from the Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries meet in Vienna to discuss production increases. It has been assumed in world markets that the ministers will agree to increase production by 900,000 to 1 million barrels per day. Current OPEC production is 24.7 million bpd. ``An effective increase of almost 1 million barrels a day would be enough to push prices down into a range acceptable for both OPEC and G7 countries, particularly the United States,'' said energy analyst Michael Rothman of Merrill Lynch. Analysts also say it would be at least six weeks before any increase from this week's OPEC meetings would affect U.S. gasoline prices. Spot gasoline was unchanged but deferred contracts were up more than 1 cent per gallon. July closed unchanged at 105.26 cents per gallon, while August jumped 1.07 cent to 99.34 cents a gallon. July heating oil rose 2.57 cents to 76.13 cents per gallon. Platinum futures prices reached an 11-year high at the New York Mercantile Exchange on speculative buying prompted by concerns about tight supplies from Russia, which provides about 20 percent of the world's platinum. ``The move higher in platinum was not on the back of any major news,'' Alaron Trading metals analyst David Meger said. ``We have come down and tested that $525-$530 support level several times, and this is a technical bounce in reaction to holding that support.'' NYMEX July platinum gained $13.80 to close at $562.30 an ounce. The contract peaked Tuesday at $566.00, the highest level for a spot contract since $566.20 in April 1989.
Black Blade: Lemme see, no or very low inflation, core rate CPI shows that inflation is benign, petroleum is not important to the economy as it was 20 years ago, gas is cheaper this last month, Gold is down so no inflation says Larry Kudlow. Well then, I guess there's nothing to worry about. Hmmmmnnnn……………
Houston, I think we've got a problem!
Sunken Ship's Gold Brings in $2.9M
NEW YORK (AP) - Gold recovered from a sunken ship brought in more than $2.9 million Tuesday during the opening session of a two-day auction at Sotheby's. The SS Central America was carrying three tons of California gold when it sank off the coast of South Carolina in 1857 during a hurricane. More than 400 people were killed. The gold consisted of uncirculated coins from the U.S. Mint in San Francisco and gold bricks weighing nearly 80 pounds each. Researchers from Ohio found the ship and began removing the gold in 1989. The lots for auction at Sotheby's were put up for sale by the companies that had underwritten the ship's voyage in the 19th century. Ninety-two lots were offered for auction on Tuesday night, ranging from gold bars to nuggets. A second session was to be held on Wednesday. The total sale for the night was $2,988,425, above the expected sale of $2.7 million, Sotheby's said in a statement. The sale total
includes the auction house commission. The top-seller was a gold bar, weighing in at 652.23 ounces, which sold for $308,000. A large gold and quartz nugget that had a pre-sale estimate of between $15,000 and $25,000 went for $121,000.
Black Blade: Barbarous Relic My A**!!!!
Meanwhile, Au up +$1.00 at $287.20, Ag up +$0.02 at $5.00, Pt sliding back -$10.00 at $560.00, and Pd holding up +$1.00 at $682.00. Oil down -$0.25 at $30.40/bbl while FTC plans investigations into price fixing (Duh! That's why OPEC is called a Cartel sherlock!). Besides, no one complained at $10.00/bbl oil now did they? S&P Futures down -5.90, and fair value down -2.54 indicating a slightly to moderately lower open on Wall Street.
Hill Billy Mitchell
(6/21/2000; 6:19:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 32674)
Leigh (06/20/00 msg#: 32663)
Leigh,you ask:
Hill Billy Mitchell
Does "their gold shall be removed" mean CONFISCATION?
My response:
Cool question!
My gut says no to your question, however I must do some fresh research into the Hebrew and Greek and re-read A.W. Pink before responding to your question. I will get back to you on that one. Have you studied this? What is your take?
Regards,
HBM
tedw
(6/21/2000; 2:53:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 32673)
Waking up in a world gone mad
http://www.usagold.com
True story:
Just recently my secretary was considering buying some junk silver coins as a result of watching my purchases in the gold and silver market. However'she was quite concerned about losing her "money". After answering a few of her questions, I explained to her that up until 1964 that the silver quarters,dimes,and 50 cents were real money and that in reality she was in a lot more danger of losing her real wealth or savings by keeping it in paper fiat notes. I pointed out that a $1 of pre 1964 silver coins would buy $5 worth of goods now, and that was just a another way of saying that paper Federal reserve notes had lost 4/5 of their value over the last 25 years or so. In other words, i
explained she had been hypnotized into believing that false money was real money and that real money was not.And that is the truth. She bought the coins.
*********************************************************
All it will take for gold and silver to rise is for the investment community to realize the same thing. There is trust and confidence now that paper money is real money.
I dont think it takes a lot of insight to see that INFLATION
signs are what will spook investors. Higher oil prices and higher energy costs spread throughout the economy and make that INFLATION undeniable.
*********************************************************
SHIFTY
(6/21/2000; 1:30:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 32672)
Black Blade/Gandalf
Black Blade / Gandalf The White
I went back and reread my post. I don't expect to get any cash. I'm trying to figure out if the value of my investments went up ! Am I now or soon to be the proud owner of 1,995. shares of Franco Nevada ? If at some point ( I think in Sept.) when the new Gold Fields International is born do I end up with 7,695.shares?
Leland
(6/21/2000; 1:12:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 32671)
Just Gotta' Love This Guy, Matt Drudge...
THE LONGEST DAY 2000
By Matt Drudge
The longest day.
The biggest state dinner of the Clinton presidency.
A Summer Solstice celebration in honor of King Mohammed VI of Morocco,
dubbed the "king of the poor" back home.
"The unbearable sufferings witnessed in many African countries make it a
moral obligation for us...," the 36-year old king declared between servings
of gazpacho and an orange sherbet dessert called ‘Moroccan Oasis’, scooped
from a circular band of white chocolate.
Earth, Wind & Fire on the White House Lawn, under the big tent: "You're a
Shining Star, that's what you are."
A toast to the African famine, with guests Ted Danson, former wire queen
Helen Thomas, sex therapist Dr. Ruth Westheimer and Tom Freston, chairman
of MTV.
Lemon garlic crusted lamb:
For her continued loyalty, Jill Abramson, Washington editor, New York
Times, was once again invited to party at the White House. [She also
celebrated New Year's Eve at the mansion.]
"Thanks, Sidney."
Warm goat cheese tarts:
Naftali Bendavid, national correspondent, Chicago Tribune, rewarded with an
invite for his dynamic expose on pesky Judge Royce Lamberth.
Seared salmon:
Cheryl Mills, senior vice president Oxygen Media, for not asking Vice
President Al Gore the tough questions during a televised interview last
week.
Field greens splashed with assorted peppercorns:
Lindsey, Podesta, Maggie Williams, Lockhart.
First Lady Hillary Rodham Clinton, multitasking, raced back to Washington,
fresh from the trail. With a snap, and no nap, changing from campaign day
to cinderella night, slipping back into Donna for the cap.
Down to Arkansas in the morning, up to the Bronx in the afternoon.
Snap.
"Oh my gosh, we may be out of power soon."
No nap.
It was the longest day.
(Fair Use Protections Apply.)
Black Blade
(6/21/2000; 1:08:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 32670)
SHIFTY and Gandy, re: Goldfields and Franc-Nevada.
http://196.36.119.130/MGCurve.nsf/Current/42256803004869EE42256904004F3E59?OpenDocument
The following from theminingweb.com is a little spin on the merger. I especially like the last part. This looks to be a tough job putting these two together. A good fit IMO though, but a tough sell none-the-less. Black Blade.
Why knickers are in a twist over Gold Fields
There has been a good deal teeth-gnashing about the value at which Gold Fields is placed ahead of its proposed merger with Canadian company, Franco-Nevada. At about R28 a share, Johannesburg analysts are disappointed it wasn't at R34; and they're also wondering what happened to Gold Fields' own internal valuation which put the company at R50 a share. They have a point, at least in terms of shareholders' short-term interests.
But there's another consideration (and we are in no way implying sour grapes here). Jo'burg analysts have taken a dim view of Gold Fields merging with the Canadians because, in some cases, it will see the Canadian analysts taking up direct coverage of the company demoting our local boys to backroom status. For Gold Fields is to take a primary listing on the Toronto Stock Exchange – assuming, of course, it receives approval from the South African Reserve Bank.
I wonder if Chris Thompson felt a twinge of embarrassment tackling his first teleconference with Franco-Nevada shareholders. Daunted no doubt by the apparent political risk of investing in a South African mining company, Franco-Nevada's North American shareholders have questioned the wisdom of their company's actions.
So with stories of rampant crime, corruption and all the other third world stigmas attached to his company, what was to be heard in the background as Chris Thompson opened his address: the very audible wail of a cavalcade of police cars, naturally.
By: Pitcher
Topaz
(6/21/2000; 1:07:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 32669)
elevator guy
G,day e-g.
One small gripe- you would have roughly 17 oz of Au- rather than $5k, no?
As you correctly state, trading and accumulation are worlds apart ie: one is entered into for $ profit, the other for wealth insurance. If I'm not mistaken, a good portion of the $65k found it's way into physical anyway eh? I certainly don't begrudge you that and I dare say neither does anyone else.
One thing about this wonderful Internet so often overlooked is the "timeframe logic" of those who actively participate in these forums. My perspective at 50 odd yr.'s old is logically different from that of a 30yo and different still from a 60yo et al, however in this format, our vastly different "TL's" aren't considered when posting/ reading thoughts as put into word's. Entirely different in Face-to-face, TV, telephone, etc where one factors age into the equation (either consciously or otherwise).
So basically what works for you may not necessarily work for mois.
Apart from that, all credit to you Sir and "good trading".
SHIFTY
(6/21/2000; 0:58:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 32668)
Gandalf The White
Before the deal I had 5,700 Goldfields Ltd. worth about $22,000.00 What do I have now?
I found the letter in history, it reads : "Today we announced a proposal to merge Gold Fields Limited and Franco Nevada into a new global gold mining company,which will be known as Gold Fields International. Under the terms of the merger agreement, shareholders of Gold Fields will receive 35 shares in Franco Nevada for every 100 Gold Fields common share that they own, which constitutes a 29% premium for Gold Fields ' shareholders over the average for the five trading days prior to the Cautionary Announcement issued on 25 May, 2000.
Gandalf the White
(06/21/00; 00:05:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 32667)
SHIFTY -- read slowly !
SHIFTY (06/20/00; 22:40:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 32665)
Goldfields Ltd/ Franco Nevada
I need help understanding this deal.
--
The Hobbits think that you may be making this too difficult. -- Please read this slowly. -- You will receive only 35 shares of FN for each 100 shares of GOLD that you held. -- NO CANADIAN $ !! (unless for portions of full shares) -- They also intend to list on the NYSE soon.
<;-)
--
(Reuters) - Canadian gold company Franco-Nevada Corp. Ltd. CA:FN said on Tuesday it would take over South Africa's Gold Fields Ltd. in an all-stock deal worth C$2.7-billion ($1.8 billion), creating a gold powerhouse that will rank third in the world.
Although both companies termed the deal "a merger of equals," Gold Fields shareholders will get 0.35 of a share of Franco-Nevada for each Gold Fields common share. Franco-Nevada, which is mainly a gold mining royalty company with some North American gold assets, will issue about 159 million shares to cover the purchase.
ViewYesterday's Discussion.
Permission to reprint is hereby granted where the USAGOLD name is cited along with our web address, mailing address and phone number. For electronic reproductions, citing the post heading and the http://www.usagold.com/cpmforum/ website address as the source is sufficient.
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