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Welcome to the USAGOLD Gold Discussion Archives. The archives of this gold discussion forum are a treasure trove of information to educate investors about protecting their wealth through portfolio diversification with private gold ownership. The discussion forum also covers the wider issues of the past, present, and future role of gold in international monetary policy and the dynamics of the modern gold markets...

The opinions posted by all guests are expressly their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the management or staff of USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals. The hosting of the public discussion shall therefore not be construed as an endorsement by USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals of any of the opinions posted here.

ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 11/21/2000
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

(Yesterday's Discussion.)

Peter Asher (11/21/00; 23:53:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 41968)
Comments while answering an E-mail from Al

Re Washington's comments, wasn't it John Paul Jones a few years later,
that flew the flag with a snake emblem and the slogan "Don't tread on
me."

I find it a bit sad to be celebrating Thanksgiving this year with the pall
of this Outrage hanging over us. Maybe it will be best to have it all out
in the open finally. This "Virtual" Civil War has been festering for a
long time. It's between the "Thinkers" and the "Think-nots"

Journeyman (11/21/00; 22:43:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 41967)
The majority @Auspec, Thai Gold, ALL

I agree with you: "They" are NOT "us." Guess I'm just not a LARGE-group player.

But we can't impeach the American people or even those ill advised enough to choose to vote. Only a maximum of about 25.5% of the _registered voters_ only were even more illadvised enough to vote for Algore. And many didn't register, therefore less than 15% of our countrymen were deluded enough to vote for him.

Regards,
Journeyman


Gandalf the White (11/21/00; 22:35:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 41966)
Did anyone else post this ?
http://www.gold.org/Gra/Pr/CIORStats.htm
World Gold Council
News Release
Changes in official reserves statistics (Nov)

LONDON: 10 November 2000 - Each month the World Gold Council attempts to explain movements in published data on gold reserve statistics. The table is based primarily on data published by the International Monetary Fund in International Financial Statistics but is at times supplemented by additional or more timely information that is available. The latest few months are shown below; a longer table showing changes since July 1999, and including notes on individual countries, is available for download in Microsoft Excel format.

Changes in IFS over the last three months (tonnes)
====
Sept
All countries
-39.9

Sales/ Purchases
Switzerland
-27.4
Uruguay
-16.9

Swaps
Zero

Trading
Zimbabwe
1.4

Accounting and other adjustments
Zero

Other/ Unknown
Dominican Republic
1.9
=====

August
All countries
3.0

Sales/ Purchases
Canada
-1.8
Uruguay
-6.8
Switzerland
-24.9

Swaps
South Africa
26.7
Russia
9.9

Trading
Zero

Accounting and other adjustments
Zero

Other/ Unknown
Zero
=====


July
All countries
-32.8


Sales/ Purchases
Argentina
-9.7
Austria
-30.0
Switzerland
-19.4
UK
-25.0

Swaps
South Africa
29.3
Russia
4.0

Trading
Zimbabwe
-2.9

Accounting and other adjustments
Japan
10.0

Other/ Unknown
Sweden
1.0
=========


September Notes

1. Switzerland is a signatory to the Washington Agreement on Gold limiting sales from 15 European central banks to approximately 400t a year.

2. Uruguay announced in August that it intended to sell just over 23 tonnes of gold during the second half of 2000. This completes the sale.

====================
General Notes

There are a number of reasons why the reported levels of a country's gold reserves can change. Some of the more common are as follows:

Outright sale or purchase of gold with the intention of decreasing/adding to gold reserves. Note that when gold has been sold (or purchased) on a forward basis the transaction will not show up in reserves figures until delivery occurs.
A change in the amount of gold out on swap. Here countries' accounting treatment varies. Some include gold out on swap in which case a change in swaps makes no difference to the reported level. Some do not in which case the reported level of reserves varies with the extent of gold swaps. The Special Data Dissemination Standard (SDSS) on reserves data established under the auspices of the IMF and BIS specifies that gold out on swap should be included; countries who currently do not follow this practice can be expected to change when they adopt the Standard.
Borrowing and repayment. South Africa announced in June 2000 that it had arranged to borrow $500m worth of gold to boost its reserves. When this loan is drawn down the gold should therefore be added to South Africa's reserves. On repayment it should be deducted. Note that when a gold-holder lends gold there is no change to the country's reserves statistics since the country still owns the gold.
Central banks of some gold producing countries act as marketing channels for newly mined gold. Some will include such gold in their formal reserves. In that case reserves will fluctuate as gold is acquired and, later, sold. A number of central banks in these countries have a policy of gradually increasing their gold reserves. Some will also engage in swaps. It is impossible to distinguish which movements are due to which reason and changes in reserves held by these central banks are all allocated to the "trading" column in this table.
Some changes are due to accounting and other adjustments. Periodic fluctuations in the amount of gold held by the USA, for example, are due to arrangements for purchasing and then supplying gold to the US mint for the manufacture of bullion coins. (Gold from the reserve is normally used for commemorative coins.)
Gold interest. Central banks who lend gold to the market sometimes receive the interest due in gold. In general such increases are too small to be separately identified in this table which attempts to allocate only changes of one tonne or more.
In many cases the reason for the movement in a country's gold reserves is known or suspected. But in others it is not. Allocations in this table will at times be tentative and the final column will include a number of instances where the reason for the change is not known. The World Gold Council would welcome any information that enables us to improve the accuracy of the table. Such comments should be sent to mailto:matthew.turner@wgclon.gold.org
===============
<;-)



ThaiGold (11/21/00; 22:29:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 41965)
Emperor's Clothing
Attn: auspec (11/21/00; 22:19:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 41964)
auspec:
I agree wholeheartedly, where you wrote:
[qoute]
Sorry, Trail Guide, I cannot share your glossing over of serious social, political, and spiritual ills in the US by painting us all together with a wide brush.
[unquote]

Myself, felt his entire post was off-base, left-field, appalling;
and beneath his perceived intelligence in this Forum. However,
it's not a popular thing, to criticize him here, ... so I won't.

ThaiGold





auspec (11/21/00; 22:19:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 41964)
Graciousness
Just heard Algor speak and he is certainly gracious all of a sudden! "Let's all meet", "I don't want any defecting Electoral votes", and so on. Now that his schemes are coming to fruition he can slough off any unnecessary desperate tactics TODAY. I'm with Cavan Man, this country is not what it used to be and there is little sense of right and wrong. Wally and Beaver would be appalled! We may all be what makes up this country, but I believe we are also in serious jeopardy and well past the point of no return. Sorry, Trail Guide, I cannot share your glossing over of serious social, political, and spiritual ills in the US by painting us all together with a wide brush. This guy will disavow the clintons, gores, dershowitzs, and renos until the chads come home. Algor may be a reflection of 50% of the population, but he is an anathema to the other somewhat less than 50%. I love the people of this country, but I hate what many of them do. It is very sad. Maybe the US has always been this polarized, but somehow don't think so. George Bush is now going to have to make some decisions as to fighting for principles, if he cannot fight for them he is not worthy of the Presidency. Will not respect the man if he loses this election to dimpled chads w/o showing them his southernmost dimples.
Now as far as posting some "extreme" positions on this and other internet sites, I say help yourself. It does serve a purpose in release of frustration if nothing else. It also is a method of taking a stance for convictions. Phil in LA shares little of the same political outlook as I, but so what? We can have a reasonable discussion and it is a great practice of our freedom of speech, as long as it is available to us. Whatever I write I know and don't care that "Echelon" may be tuning in, will speak out of the heart regardless. If we do not express ourselves we will soon lose the ability to do same.
Am rambling now, thanks for your ear, have a great Thanksgiving!
With higher auspec{tations} for this blessed country.

ThaiGold (11/21/00; 22:06:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 41963)
Attn: dragonfly
The RePost had a garbled/missing first sentence.
So, if you wish to print it, it's best to go to the original post
on 11-19-200 which I referenced, to get the full context.
PS: I've emailed it (on that date) to ABC, NBC, CBS, & PBS.
But as you said, they're too "Mediyoptic" to pick up on it.
Regards
ThaiGold

dragonfly (11/21/00; 21:58:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 41962)
Correction
Attention Sir ThaiGold

I just reread my post to you and realize the word "better" was not the right word to convey my actual thoughts. "Other" is much more like it. I actually think your suggestions are very well chosen. Whatever the differences in political philosophies around this table, I would hope that most agree that we are going to need the best leadership available for the times shortly ahead. Certainly calling respected men out of retirement is a wise move especially with the bi-partisan twist, as well as the need to have someone with the respect of the military. Thanks for reposting. I printed it out this time and plan to present the idea in full to folks tomorrow. I'll report back later.

Regards,
dragonfly

ThaiGold (11/21/00; 21:58:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 41961)
US Congress Making Plans Already to OverRule Electoral College
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2000/11/21/112457.shtml
[snip]
Congressman Says House May Decide Presidency
[by] David M. Bresnahan
Tuesday, Nov. 21, 2000
PROVO, Utah – The final vote on the next president of the United States could be made in the U.S. House of Representatives, according to a former member of the House Impeachment Committee.
"It appears to me that there's a very good possibility that the [Florida] Supreme Court will overturn the election process in Florida, and that the Congress may end up electing the next president," said Rep. Chris Cannon, R-Utah, in an exclusive NewsMax.com interview.
Cannon was critical of the hearing held by the Florida court on Monday. He said the jurists were acting improperly.
"This Florida Supreme Court, who are supposed to be a bunch of impartial jurists, is grabbing the headlines by responding on their own. They issued an order staying [Secretary of State] Katherine Harris from acting. Then they held a circus for the whole world to watch as some of these relatively ignorant jurists – I thought, at least from the part I saw – asked silly questions and setup questions of the Democrat counsel," Cannon complained.
He said he believes the Democrats are doing everything possible to obstruct the election process in Florida. They will stop at nothing in an effort to steal the election through vote fraud, ballot manipulation and abuse of power.
"I think the point of the Democrats must be obstruction in this case to hold all of our institutions up to public ridicule and thereby weaken the influence of our institutions that keep us a great country. It's amazing to me," said Cannon in the phone interview.
Cannon has been looking into instances of voter fraud that were reported to his office. He found that 120 Florida residents who attend Brigham Young University in Utah were prevented from voting by absentee ballot because of a paperwork technicality. He said he also discovered that a Florida National Guard unit was prevented from voting.
"A large unit in Florida of several hundred people were ordered out on maneuvers at the last minute, two days or so before the election. They couldn't get absentee ballots because it was too late for that, and they couldn't vote because they were out on maneuvers," said Cannon.
He said the Democrats are very clever in their efforts to eliminate the military vote. Other reports have surfaced of military units being shipped out just before the election without warning, absentee ballots that did not arrive in time for military in foreign countries to vote, and efforts to disqualify ballots that were received.
Cannon was pleased that a court decision on Monday would enable many disqualified military ballots to be counted that Democrats had previously objected to because they did not have a postmark.
"It doesn't take a genius to figure out that if the College Republicans at BYU come up with 120 ballots, those people are going to vote for Bush," said Cannon. "It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the people in the military loathe this administration. They loathe Al Gore and they're going to vote against him.
"What did this administration do? Everything it could think of, everything that every liberal wacko nut could imagine, was done to keep people from voting for George Bush in Florida," said Cannon.
Will the Democrats give up if the vote is certified for George W. Bush?
"No. They're not going to give up," said Cannon. He added that he is very concerned about the efforts being made by Democrats to find members of the Electoral College who can be persuaded to change their vote from Bush to Gore.
"The concern here is that you might have people that are susceptible to a bribe or other kind of motivation," he explained.
He said the many problems with the election will lead to more problems in the Electoral College, and Congress will decide the results of the election.
"I think there's a very good likelihood of that. It's all obscure right now, but if you look at the various trails or threads of a path that you can come up with, frankly George W. Bush is the likely winner in virtually all those paths – including the recount now," said Cannon, who is confident that Bush will come out on top eventually.
A clerk with the Congressional Research Service (CRS) confirmed to NewsMax.com that CRS has prepared documents for members of Congress who asked for guidance on the procedures in the event the election is placed in their hands.
So many individually asked for the information that CRS sent the documents to every congressman. The clerk said members of Congress are acting as if it is inevitable that they will soon be voting for the next president in a very historic election.
[unsnip]



ThaiGold (11/21/00; 21:47:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 41960)
Reno RunAround: Miami Vote Frauds ... Legendary.. Documented...
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2000/11/21/110744.shtml
[snip]
Vote Fraud in Miami-Dade – Count On It!
[by ]Jack Thompson
Tuesday, Nov. 21, 2000
In the frightening book "Votescam: The Stealing of America," the authors proved that crooked poll workers in Miami-Dade County secretly punched holes in the computer punch card ballots before the election in order to predetermine the result. The authors had clandestinely videotaped the punching, and they had grabbed the boxes of ballots when the workers left them unattended.
The authors took the ballots and video to then State Attorney Janet Reno to give her evidence with which to prosecute these crooks. Instead, she prosecuted them for "stealing" government property! On the day of their trial for "theft," Reno dropped the charges because she knew the trial would blow the lid off the practice in Miami-Dade of stuffing the ballot box with fraudulent computer cards.
She subsequently consistently used her office to protect vote fraud rather than prosecute it.
However, in the wake of "Votescam's" revelations, the governor of Florida appointed well-known Miami attorney Ellis Rubin as an ombudsman to investigate the vote fraud. Rubin's report concluded that massive vote fraud had occurred. The fraud was so bad, said Rubin, that it "shocked and sickened" him.
When I ran against Reno in 1988, I called on her to join me in my campaign pledge to get rid of these computer punch card ballots, hanging chad and all. She refused. She knew something.
Today, amidst Republican charges that ‘funny things' are going on with the computer cards during the crucial hand recount in Miami-Dade, the Republicans need to know something immediately. I was dismayed to find how far behind the fraud curve Bush's Florida team has been ever since I uttered, 12 days ago, to Bush's Florida general counsel a phrase he had never heard before – "hanging chad."
Dade's supervisor of elections when the above-related pre-punching ballots was going on, who participated in Reno's prosecution of the whistleblowers rather than the criminals, was a man by the name of David Leahy. Guess who is presently the supervisor of elections overseeing the hand recount right now? Right. David Leahy.
You can bet that a man who did nothing to stop pre-election punching of ballots is going to do nothing to stop post-election punching of ballots.
Reno's non-prosecutors are still in place here to protect the scam. Before Reno went off to Washington to serve as Clinton-Gore's firewall at Justice, she handpicked her first lieutenant, Katherine Fernandez Rundle, to replace her. State Attorney Rundle will not prosecute vote fraud, because her mentor Reno will not countenance her doing so.
It is time for Gov. Bush to say something about what is going on in Miami-Dade County.
I stated on national TV, in a debate between Alan Dershowitz and me on CNN 10 days ago, that I and others could prove vote fraud in Miami-Dade right now. CNN found the charge so scintillating that I have received reports from overseas that CNN ran my charge repeatedly on their overseas broadcasts.
It is now time for Bush himself to step up to a microphone and aver that there is a history of vote fraud in Miami-Dade – and this time it may steal the election. I and others can make the charge stick. If he doesn't, it may cost him the presidency.
[unsnip]


dragonfly (11/21/00; 21:19:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 41959)
Extremes
Bonedaddy

Hello Sir Bonedaddy. I just read your post to my father-in-law (he's 80) and he said he might just have to get on the internet to get hear some sensible discussion. He said to say thanks for the sentiments.

He also said justice was supposed to be blind, not senile.

Regards,
dragonfly




ThaiGold (11/21/00; 21:17:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 41958)
RePost: Compromise Scenario (Nunn + Powell)
Attn: Dragonfly ... It seems to be headed this direction ...
ThaiGold (11/19/2000; 4:37:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 41742)
After The "Election" ...
... A scenario to consider ...
If the Florida state Supreme Court decides (Monday) in favor
invariably appeal it into the Federal Courts. And eventually it
would be somewhat settled by the US Supreme Court. But
then what.?. Certainly not the end of it. If Bush prevails, the
Electoral College members will be hounded and paid-off or
blackmailed to switch their votes. (There's already evidence of
Gore doing "research" into the backgrounds of Bush Electoral
Voters). So, by hook or by crook, Gore would receive their nod
and be "elected". But wait. It wouldn't end there. The 50/50
congress would be irate or bemused, but certainly see that
Gore would be so "tainted" as not to be a viable President.
What to do.?. Under the Constitution, one Senator and one
Representative could challenge any Elector's vote. Or more.
And probably would. Tilting it back to Bush. And ditto, would
be the response from an opposite party Senator and Rep. Now
we have a mushrooming crisis that even the most dense or
fanatically partisan politico can see would devastate the USA
for the next four years. Hardly anything could get done, not
even their Pork Agendas. So here's what will happen:
Congress will nullify *all* Electoral voters (Constitutionally) and
then the Congress will (Constitutionally) choose an alternate
COMPROMISE President and VP (only one of each) and
promptly draft/elect them into the vacant offices. They will,
unlike Clinton, rise to the occasion and finally put America's
best interests first. Almost unthinkable, but will come to pass.
Who then will these stalwart compromise draftees be.?.
Acceptable to both sides, for four years.?. And with promises
by each, not to seek reelection...
Try: For President: Retired Senator Sam Nunn (D) Georgia,
and For VP: Retired General Colin Powell (R).
I'm sure both of those men would welcome the opportunity to
serve their country meticulously, one more time, with Honor.
PH_in_LA .... F*arfel .... What would you think of that.?.
Comments anyone.?....
ThaiGold@OperaMail.Com


dragonfly (11/21/00; 21:05:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 41957)
Alternates
ThaiGold

Hello Sir ThaiGold. One thing you suggested the other day has stuck with me and I have been presenting the idea to co-workers and family to interesting effect. The idea is a compromise President and Vice-President such as Sam Nunn and Colin Powell. No one has as yet taken the ball and run with it (as in suggesting a better pair with reasoned arguments) probably because of media-myopia affecting the longer-range functioning of the human brain. Mediopia?

It has become a very useful device to get others thinking more widely. Thank you very much. It's quite a bit of fun as well if presented properly. A friend and I even have a bet going and he gave me 3 to 1 odds, with Silver Eagles at stake.

Maybe others here could come up with better combinations with an eye towards individuals who could help this country weather the storm that's coming without sinking the boat or losing too many passengers and who would regard the Bill of Rights as sacrosanct.

Regards,
dragonfly

ThaiGold (11/21/00; 20:54:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 41956)
Hecla CEO Bullish on Silver: Attn: Gene & auspec
http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/001120/id_hecla_m.html
[snip]
During its 110-year history, Hecla has been
well-known as one of the United States' premier silver producers. We have increased our silver production more than fourfold
over the past five years in anticipation of a future increase in the price of silver. I think we could be in the 'darkest before the
dawn' period of this low silver price cycle. We believe the fundamentals of supply and demand and silver's current deficit
situation are bringing us closer to the time when we may see a sustained increase in the price of silver. Demand for the metal
continues to increase each year, and our position as a producing silver company puts us in position to benefit from that price
increase when it occurs.
[-and-]
Hecla Mining Company mines silver and gold at three underground mines in Alaska, Idaho and Venezuela. Precious metals
exploration projects and properties are located in the vicinity of the existing mines, as well as the promising Saladillo silver/gold
exploration property in central Mexico. The company expects to produce approximately 8 million ounces of silver and about
130,000 ounces of gold in 2000.
[unsnip]


Bonedaddy (11/21/00; 20:53:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 41955)
HEY FLORIDA, KISS MY DIMPLED B....ALLOT!
Another Banana Republic???
I just heard the news that the FL extreme court is siding with mobsters. O.K. fine. Lovers of freedom will be asked to boycott all Florida orange juice, travel, tourism, ect. Any high tech manufacturing in FL? Lots of competition in that arena too.
Since the military vote is not important to Florida. We will contact our U.S. Representatives about moving Florida's military bases to back to America. Anyone from Colorado remember when Patsy Schroder started dissn' the military bases? A base was eliminated in her district and her political career was ended.
This rigged election will put the dollar on the slide soon. Stock market dollars will be chasing very limited supplies of GOLD. USA Gold's recommendation for pre-33 coins is very sound advice indeed. At the first sign of financial trouble Gore (El Hefe) may try confiscation.

dragonfly (11/21/00; 20:44:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 41954)
Euro and Oil and Dollar
Cavan Man

Hello Sir Cavan Man. It's my pleasure to provide the links.
Glad you like them. I was just reading some FOA Hall of Fame material and thought I'd post a couple of paragraphs here and comment.
-------------------------------------------------------
FOA >> Just as a high gold price would expose the dollar by presenting it's true past inflation (world dollar money supply growth), a rising oil price exposes the US economy to the super leverage it contains. Especially if one can grasp how that economy was built on oil backing through dollar settlement. Once the threat of a dollar slump is made possible by high oil, expect big oil to run to Euro settlement for international trade. Perhaps run is not a good word? Let's just say a transition will begin that shows the world the trail ahead. This is the period when the Euro will rise very much against the dollar (2.00 or 3.00 Euros per dollar?). As oil becomes cheaper in Euros, their local economy (Euroland) will experience a dramatic positive shift in activity relative to the US and other countries tied to US trade. Does Japan sound like one on the wrong side? (TownCrier, yes, no?)

Because the ECB has no pressing need to keep gold prices in place, gold could initially run in Euros also. Still, eventually Euro gold prices will not be anywhere close to dollar gold prices as international dollar reserves are liquidated. In effect, the disgorging of dollar reserves will show no negative accounting on ECB books as gold prices more than make up for dollar reserve destruction. In fact, once the Euro becomes the world reserve, there will be no reason to hold dollars at all.

Onward, looking only forward:

In fits and starts, oil prices will keep rising based on an expected reserve currency transition, not dollar oil use economics. Any substitution of alternate oil resources in the US will run head long into a local cost inflation roadblock. $200 dollar crude will not be seen as enough to drill for reserves nor switch to other fuels.
---------------------------------------------------------

It seems to me that alot of folks must "see" this coming and the planning for it on all sides must be extremely intense due to the implications for those whose "power" is measured in dollars.

What say thou?

Regards,
dragonfly

ThaiGold (11/21/00; 20:43:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 41953)
Bulletin: Florida Supreme Court Decision Issued...
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/reuters20001121_3740.html

WIRE:11/21/2000 22:14:00 ET
TEXT-Statement on Florida Supreme Court
ruling
 
 TALLAHASSEE, Fla (Reuters) - The
following is a summary of the Florida Supreme
Court"s decision in the legal battle between
Democratic Vice President Al Gore and
Republican Governor George W. Bush over
Florida"s votes in the presidential election. The statement
was read to reporters on Tuesday by court spokesman
Craig Waters: "The court has issued a 42 page opinion this
evening in the presidential election cases. "In its opinion, the
court has reversed the two orders of the trial court. "It did
so based on long-standing rules that govern how to
interpret a general statute containing conflicting provisions
as is the case with Florida"s election code. "In dealing with
similar conflicts in the past, the court has consistently held
that the right of people to cast their vote is the paramount
concern overriding all others. "To achieve this goal, the
court holds that amended certifications from the county
canvassing boards must be accepted by the Election
Canvassing Commission through 5 p.m. on Nov. 26, if the
secretary of state"s office is open for the special purpose of
receiving amended certifications. "If that office is not open
for this purpose on that date then the Elections Canvassing
Commission must accept amended certifications until 9 a.m.
on Nov. 27. The opinion of the court is unanimous. Thank
you and I will not be accepting any questions."


gidsek (11/21/00; 20:11:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 41952)
SteveH
"SteveH (11/21/2000; 5:51:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 41904)
I remember now what the guest commentator said...
on CNN this morning.

He said that the large growth of both Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac has caused Graham and Baker (Senators?) to look carefully at their derivative positions and deterimine if they have lived up to their intent of keeping mortgage rates low."
----------------------------------------
I just saw (heard actually) a strange ad on TV. In it a husband and wife were arguing the family finances, the husband taking a cavalier attitude to payment of the family bills.

A voice over broke in saying that failing to pay bills in a timely way could adversely affect ones credit rating and refered viewers to one of the GSEs (Fannie I think) for a pamphlet pertaining to credit.

This is a far cry from %125 mortages from Datek-Online!

I'd appreciate it if anyone else who got a better look at this ad to post about it.

It sounded like some "consumers" were about to get the rug pulled out from under them.

gidsek



Cavan Man (11/21/00; 20:05:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 41951)
dragonfly
Thanks for the link references. I really believe the Euro will settle oil in expanded trade next year. It just makes too much sense to me. Given all that we have learned here at this table during the las eighteen months (and leave out FOA/Another if you wish), I see Euro settlement of oil as simply inevitable and the next logical step in the evolution of global monetary real politik. Thanks again.

auspec (11/21/00; 19:20:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 41950)
@Gene
It is a waiting game with silver. In the 1940s silver above ground stocks were about 10 Billion ounces of silver. This has been drawn down drastically over the years to what a lot of people estimate is now around a couple hundred million ounces. The annual deficit may be up to 150 million ounces per year according to the Silver Institute. When do they hit the wall? Who knows, but I plan on being there. Bought silver for under $5 in 1973! Was not patient enough, this time the silver is in strong and patient hands that will take advantage of their folly. This is a mega short position in an essential commodity that has a supply much smaller than gold does. The silver is basically used and GONE. Best to you, Agspec also

Tate (11/21/00; 19:13:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 41949)
INTEREST RATE SPREAD !!!!
I posted on possible and likely scenario that Euro currently is involved in carry trade. Interest spread between USD and Euro is sufficient for it to be played.

Very strong indicator is the fact that with all this political limbo in USA it does not effect Euro downward trend against USD. This makes me believe other forces are active to keep that pressure.

In my opinion, since Strong Dollar policy is unsustainable in the long run, until is reversed we see further Euro slide with periodical ECB interventions.

Strong Dollar policy gradual or sudden switch definitely be catalyst for gold rise.

In fact Strong Dollar policy appears to includes manipulating CPI index and unti-gold propaganda.

What really bothers me that this SD policy may be supported by some European bank officials and until they experience substantial inflation in Euro land they are happy to have competitive trading edge over US exporters.

Soros and other prominent players do mention interest rate spread between US and Europe.

As TG mentioned Fed faces two negatives : inflation and trade deficit.

According to VP from Yrkton Securities in Toronto, deficit is lesser one.

Early capital inflow to US markets was attracted by rising stock markets. Inflow of additional capital was sustained through higher interest rate.
Interest rate spread between USD rate and other leading currencies will determine
type of landing we have.


auspec (11/21/00; 19:03:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 41948)
ThaiGold #41944
Great point regarding"bonafide perforations"! The ballots should show whether a particular person was capable of making a full perforation. If any part of the ballot had a full or "partial" perforation that renders the indentations meaningless as far as counting as a vote. Thank you, have not seen this clarity mentioned on a national level. The 80 year olds that I talk to are insulted that they would not be able to adequately perforate a ballot. What a joke this is now and becoming more so.

Mr Gresham (11/21/00; 18:42:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 41947)
Before you get too enthusiastic...
http://mediafilter.org/caq/BushFamilyPreys.html
Thought while driving: Hmmm, why not do a Search on "Prescott Bush"?

Also some old "Trading With the Enemy Problems" duriing WW2. Nazi finances & the like. Who knows... there's dirt on everyone, idn't there? How great fortunes are made...

The really big money stays out of political spotlight altogether, eh?


dragonfly (11/21/00; 18:22:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 41946)
More Oil for Euros
http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/news/ntm90846.htm

I wonder how long this idea has been percolating?

Here's one from 1999 ----


UAE sees Euro to become part of oil pricing

14-01-99 United Arab Emirates oil minister Obaid bin Saif al-Nasseri said that oil may eventually be priced in a basket of currencies that would include Europe's Euro.
"There is a possibility that in the future oil and some of the main commodities will be priced against a basket of currencies in which the dollar is the main currency along
with the Euro and the yen, provided that the Euro is stable and successful," he told.
"It is known that oil trade is currently handled primarily in the dollar and the launching of the Euro has created real competition for the dollar...," he added.

Nasseri said the launching of the Euro in most European Union countries would encourage Gulf Arab oil producers to boost their trade with those states in the future,
especially when the Euro is strong and stable compared with other currencies.
He said a unified, strong European currency would facilitate easier trade with Gulf Arab states.

Regards,
dragonfly

dragonfly (11/21/00; 17:57:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 41945)
Euros for Oil
http://www.europarl.eu.int/pes/De/News/Press/prelease/prs02286.htm#top


Seems to be a hot topic over there in Euroland.

Maybe Mutt and Jeff are just doing their best to distract us???

Regards,
dragonfly

ThaiGold (11/21/00; 17:25:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 41944)
Baffling Ballot Bull
... Orwell's 1984 was never this bad ...
It seems patently outrageous to me, that anyone..ANYONE..
can pretend that an unperforated-ballot ("dimpled chad") can
indicate a voter's intent to be anything more than an intent to
*not* vote for any given candidate upon that immediate list.

Especially when the remaining portions of the ballot have real
bonafide perforations for subsequent offices and measures.

To allow a partisan clique of hacks to decide an election upon
such baseless and clueless misconceptions, as a "sincere"
attempt to "determine the true intent of the voter" smacks of
dishonesty of the highest magnitude. And it flys in the face of
everything that America stands for. Somewhere, long ago, I
read that our political system was based upon a one-person,
one-vote concept, of an "informed electorate". And I believe
that the US Supreme court once ruled that such an informed
voter had a responsibility to study the issues, candidates, and
balloting proceedures adequately prior to casting his ballot. In
the event instructions were not followed precisely, such ballots
had every right to be thrown out, so as not to penalize those
who exercised their voting rights properly. And laws are on
most state's books, which act accordingly, to disqualify such
ambiguous ballots during the counting process. These laws
generally are implemented as a feature of the count process
or the counting machine's program. ie: no mark = no vote. And
double-marks = invalid ballot. It's the only logical thing to do.

Why the News Reporters; Anchors; and nit wit Analyists
cannot comprehend, or choose not to question the motives of
persons who would distort an election by doing otherwise, just
baffles me to no end.
Perhaps I'm just Old Fashioned.

ThaiGold


TheStranger (11/21/00; 17:04:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 41943)
$34 Billion And A Timely Recommendation
How the dollar managed to hold on to its gains today after last month's trade deficit was announced is beyond me. But I do think it interesting that gold mining stocks were among the leaders on Wall Street today. Once again, that old adage comes to mind, "never sell a dull market short." Well, things in the gold market have been pretty dull lately. That's for sure.

A bullish call on gold yesterday by Morgan Stanley's two precious metals analysts may have played a roll. In their weekly update, Michael Durose and Brian Markovich pointed to several influences which may power the yellow metal higher in the weeks to come.

First, they cite an increasing chance that both the U.S. economy and the U.S. Dollar, which have been dual juggernauts for most of the past five years, have finally peaked. If so, a weaker dollar could be just the ticket to frighten recently emboldened short sellers into covering some of their positions.

Secondly, Durose and Markovitch believe that tech stocks, which were,up until recently, all that investors wanted to talk about, have now been sufficiently discredited to foster interest elsewhere. And what better place to diversify, they argue, than in woefully underpriced gold and goldmining stocks?

For evidence that interest in gold has already begun, the two point to the results of the most recent U.K. gold auction, an event which uncharacteristically just about escaped notice here at the politics forum (I'M JUST KIDDING!-Sheeesh...). Anyway, here in their own words is what they had to say:

"What is noteworthy is the upturn in the subscription rate and the reversal in trend of the allotment price. The most recent auction was oversubscribed 3.3times, and the allotment price was marginally (.20 U.S. Dollars) above the market price at the time of the auction. The four prior auctions had both lower subscription rates and allotment prices... We think this could be signaling a change in sentiment."

And then, of course, there is that trade deficit to worry about....$34 billion in a single month. Wow.

Gene (11/21/00; 17:01:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 41942)
Harmony
Other than the low price of gold, I think the reason SA gold mining shares have taken a tumble is political. The SA gov't is planning to get involved in the industry in order to empower more blacks to overcome prior racial imbalance in mining.Who knows what this could lead to? Look what's been going on in Zimbabwe.Yes, I too think HGMCY, GOLD,& DROOY all look good.

Gene (11/21/00; 16:48:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 41941)
Silver Shortage
I have read quite a few items in the last week or so about the shortage of silver and the impending price explosion.I would like for someone to explain to me how the silver shorts can hold down the price.Where are the manufacturers who use silver getting it? They must use the real thing, not paper silver. If there was a real shortage, the price would already be going up, wouldn't it? TIA.

dragonfly (11/21/00; 16:46:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 41940)
Oil for Euros
http://www.middleeastwire.com/uae/business/stories/20001017_meno.shtml


Greetings. I am glad to see that some of my digging has been useful to others here. Thanks for the notes SteveH, Journeyman and j'bear.

This one is a month old and others may be well aware of it, but I was surprised when I read it that the subject of oil for Euros is so much "out in the open" so to speak.

See what you think. Below is an excerpt.
--------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------

Santer Calls On Gulf States To Switch To Euro For Oil Exports
Monday Morning (Beirut)

Posted Tuesday October 17, 2000 - 05:20:31 PM EDT

Beirut - Former European Commission president Jacques Santer has urged the Gulf Arabs to price their crude exports in the euro rather than the American dollar as a means to bring the two trading blocs closer. "It could be the instrument to
consolidate oil markets" and would be less affected by US foreign policy, Santer told a Gulf-Euro conference in Dubai, the region's trading hub.

CoBra(too) (11/21/00; 16:42:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 41939)
Wolavka's 5 Monkeys - Replaced?
Ok - let's see - Rubin left the cage - in time I may add ( in time to cash in on GS float) So there are still 4 monkeys out there.
Billy, the kid monkey is still there - though on his way out - and hopefully taking Summers (equivalent to economic winters) with him. Madeleine and Janet reduced themselves to banana status as well - so all are accounted for - except big Al Gore - sticking out as a sore - scout of more - of the same - shame or scam to blame as before.

While putting away
the dem's today
there's only young Bush
stopping the rush
to gold as real money
(I've told you so, honey)

Stay tuned to the net
and buy dips, don't fret
CNBC recommends
no ends
to the chance -
to lose reality - without pretense!

Me too - cb2

PS: Cavan Man - re WGC & GMS (just occurred - sounds like GFMS - the other group of contenders to the lime award!) - go bananas, or gold!?!
True? cb2 -

wolavka (11/21/00; 15:33:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 41938)
GOLD MONKEY
Start with a cage containing 5 monkeys. In the cage, hang a banana on a tring and put stairs under it. Before long, a monkey will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the banana.

As soon as he touches the stairs, spray all the monkeys with cold water. After a while, another monkey will make an attempt with the same response----all of the monkeys are sprayed with cold water. Keep this up for several days.

Turn off the cold water. If, later, another monkey tries to climb the stairs, the other monkeys will try to prevent it even though no water sprays them.

Now, remove one monkey from the cage and replace it with a new one. The new monkey see the banana and wants to climb the stairs. To his horror, all of the other monkeys attack him. After another attempt and attack. he knows that if he tries to climb the stairs, he will be assaulted.

Next remove another of the original 5 monkeys and replace it with a new one.. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiam.

Replace the third original monkey with a new one. The new one makes it to the stairs and is attacked as well. Two of the 4 monkeys that beat him have no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs, or why they are participating in the beating of the newest monkey.

After replacing the 4th and 5th original monkeys, all the monkeys which have been sprayed with cold water have been replaced. nevertheless, no monkey ever again approaches the stairs.

Why Not???????????????????????




"BECAUSE THAT'S THE WAY IT'S ALWAYS BBEN DONE AROUND HERE."

SteveH (11/21/00; 15:22:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 41937)
Mainstream gloom and doom
http://www.msnbc.com/p/cnbc/493184.asp?bt=cnbc
read away!

Journeyman (11/21/00; 15:22:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 41936)
"Sombody stop me." -actor Jim Carey

"It's irrresponsible of you to tell them I'm cheating -- if I get away with it and win, it'll 'posion the well.'" -The Subliminal Al Gore

Regards, j.


wolavka (11/21/00; 15:12:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 41935)
Team work
Light volumne and thin trading, they will try to force the floor to move prices lower and take out all stops accumulated for last 19 days.

We need to pound them during nite session and jump start this gold corpse.

A lousy $3.00 move would explode this mkt to upside.
Come on girls!!!

Mr Gresham (11/21/00; 15:09:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 41934)
Galearis
Thank you for engaging with our esteemed companion Journeyman on topics that you are both much more qualified to comment upon than I: Libertarian philosophy and environmental damage.

I have just erased below this sentence a multi-multi-paragraph post on differences in political philosophy. (Cheers from the crowd! "Mr G, that windbag!") Sheesh! You guys get me going! I saved it elsewhere, but on re-reading I realized it just did not do you both justice.

I had wanted to get my thoughts into just one sentence, so here goes:

How can citizens join together to solve a pressing problem without creating an addition to the power structure that persists and takes away their liberties?

Cavan Man (11/21/00; 15:01:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 41933)
GM Stanley and WGC
I'd accept Mr. Stanley's position at half the pay and deliver twice the value to his constituency.

CoBra(too) (11/21/00; 14:51:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 41932)
Re; SA - Mining web's interview with with G. M-S at WGC -
Thank you Goldhunter to bring this telling tale to the attention of our forum.

Snip-" every trade be it paper or physical has an impact on the POG" - Kind'a happy even WGC understands, though not the real impact since they've mis-spent any miner's $ in order to belittle AU as just a mere commodity for jewelry - Anglo, Barrick and such may be delighted - though I'm afraid reality will catch up with their virtual derivative schemes as gold manifests itself again as the only true money - and the eternal measurement, yardstick or barometer of well-being of the currency system (s).

I would be inclined to promote and move MK's 2 latest mkt. letters to HOF, though I understand you can't promote the founder's articulate remedies to a better place than to the
place they already, deservedly, have. Thank's MK - great work and even greater insight!

In view of the oppressive record 34+ billion trade (un-) balance (monthly, make no mistake) the US paper has to
hike its (un-) value again to unsupportable levels in order to hide the underlying, though raging inflation.

The perfect scenario for the creditors
to dump their lump of excess non-valeurs
with grace and face the force majeur's
by buying out the financial jongleur's (jugglers)

Buy gold and so should you - cb2

PS: I'm not paid to promote CPM - though I haven't come
across fairer pricing! tku too.


megatron (11/21/00; 14:20:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 41931)
portersweden
Technical indicators are almost useless in this market, fundamentals could be useful but mainly the question is,
can you handle the slide to $1.00 or lower? Look at Kinross or Eldorado.

PorterSweden (11/21/00; 13:36:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 41930)
Harmony Gold Mining / Question.
Gentlemen, this is my first post at your forum, which I have been following closely during the last year. I am impressed by your high standards and want to express my great gratitude.

HARMONY Gold Mining [HGMCY], being unhedged, has been mentioned here as a promising investment alternative. This company is trading at US$3.50, show earnings estimates for the present year at above US$1.00, paid dividend this fall at 20 cents (5.7% return), has mining reserves and resources that could last a century. Is this low price indicative of High Risk and if so, what risks may I have overlooked? Political?

From this Swedish outpost I extend my thanks to GATA for their great gold investigations!! Carry on! Give them support!

PorterSweden


goldhunter (11/21/00; 13:26:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 41929)
Article: Gold Issues: G.M. Stanley
Central banks set to continue plugging gold's supply deficit

MONEYWEB: We move now to George Milling-Stanley, who is the manager of Gold Market Analysis at the World Gold Council. George, start off by telling us what it is exactly that the World Gold Council does.

GEORGE MILLING-STANLEY: We're essentially trying increase gold consumption. Our members are leading gold mining companies from all around the world, and they pay a levy based on their production, currently $1 an ounce, and we do our best to increase gold consumption. Associated with that, we're trying to persuade people who do own gold, in particular governments and central banks, to hold on to what they have.

MONEYWEB: A big part of your business is collating data. Do you study the paper market quite as aggressively as the physical aspect of the gold market?

GEORGE MILLING-STANLEY: We obviously have to study all aspects of it. My primary responsibility is the research into what's going on in different markets around the world. We have just put out a large piece of research into the derivatives market, and we have more such that is on the way, because that is an ill-understood part of the business.

MONEYWEB: Just how influential is the non-physical factor like futures, over-the-counter markets, and Comex?

GEORGE MILLING-STANLEY: Oh, I think that any trade in gold, whether it is a paper trade or a physical trade in gold, is obviously going to have an impact on the price, no doubt about that, and I wouldn't really see a difference between the two.

MONEYWEB: There's a lot of talk about the de-regulation of gold in China. Tell us why the regulations exist in the first place.

GEORGE MILLING-STANLEY: Well, if I can give you just a little history here, India and China have a similar sort of sized population, give or take a billion people, and per capita incomes of more or less the same order of magnitude. Ten years ago each of these countries took in about 200 tons of gold. India started to de-regulate in the mid 1990s and consumption has quadrupled to more than 800 tons. China has not yet really begun to de-regulate, they're still at the same level as ten years ago, at 200 tons a year.

MONEYWEB: Now if they do de-regulate completely, how do you expect that to impact the gold market?

GEORGE MILLING-STANLEY: We would certainly expect to see a big increase in consumption in China. They are people with a 1000-year-old tradition of liking gold, it's really part of the fabric of the society. We would expect consumption to double or even triple in a very short period of time, once people are easily able to get hold of good quality gold products.

MONEYWEB: Currently the Chinese are major supporters of platinum jewellery - do you think it might hurt demand for the whiter metal?

GEORGE MILLING-STANLEY: I don't think these things really substitute for one another, frankly. They take about 200 tons of gold jewellery a year, they're currently up to I believe 25 or 30 tons of platinum jewellery, but I think that we haven't seen a major decline in the gold jewellery - so I don't think it's substituted. I think this is really additive.

MONEYWEB: It's been highlighted time and time again that gold demand remains strong, yet that's not really reflected in the gold price. Why is it that the gold price is geared towards more sentiment than actual fundamental aspects?

GEORGE MILLING-STANLEY: Well, there are fundamentals in play here, you have obviously got to look at the supply side, mine production not really changing very much at the moment and, if anything, likely to decline slightly in the near future, but the gap between each year's mine production and each year's consumption has been filled by suppliers from the central banks for several years now, and it looks like they will continue to fill that gap. That's why the good demand figures are not being reflected in upward movement in the price.

MONEYWEB: We had Bill Murphy, the president of GAAT on the show about a month or so ago, and his conspiracy theories sound rather convincing. At the World Gold Council do you buy into any of those ways of thinking?

GEORGE MILLING-STANLEY: Well, I mentioned the study that we just did on the derivative market, we've just published this study, by a premier researcher into the market. She was unable to uncover any evidence at all of collusive behaviour. I think that many people were moving their trades in the same direction, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they were colluding to do so.

MONEYWEB: What about the future direction of gold, just to close of with? Some of our local gold technical analysts, like Clive Roffey, have been long talking about a catapult targeting a price of anywhere between $310 and $330 an ounce. Instead we've seen the gold price deteriorate, currently at around the $265 per ounce level - where do you guys see it going?

GEORGE MILLING-STANLEY: I think that the major negative influences over the past few years have been falling US inflation, and the rising US dollar and I don't see that either of those can continue to move in the same direction as they have, so they will be less negative, so I'm rather optimistic as far as the price is concerned.

MONEYWEB: Just how optimistic is optimistic?

GEORGE MILLING-STANLEY: I would love to see the $330 forecast that you mentioned borne out. I don't know when it will happen but I don't think we'll revisit the lows of last year.

MONEYWEB: That will certainly be good news for the gold bugs. That's George Milling-Stanley, the manager of Gold Market Analysis at the World Gold Council.

By: Byron Kennedy
Return to
Miningweb
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lamprey_65 (11/21/00; 10:40:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 41928)
SteveH
Thank You for the Paul Harvey post. Some here might not see the connection to gold, but I sure do...

...the mentality that both gold and gun ownership are ideas whose time has past.

...the understanding that both stand for individual freedom at the most basic level.

My NRA membership renewal form has been sitting on the kitchen table for over a week. Thanks for the kick in the butt!

Lamprey

Galearis (11/21/00; 10:36:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 41927)
@Journeyman
The Libertarian "environmentalist"
Hello Journeyman,
I am a little disappointed that you did not send me your email address. I spent considerable time over your installments and think you would have enjoyed the read of my additions. Unfortunately it would have involved a lot of space on this page and I did not feel comfortable in posting such volumn.

I have responded briefly to your last posts - but again your essay was long enough as it was and I tried, perhaps successfully to paraphrase my position. Hopefully this did not diminish meaning too much - or pass over some points you hold strongly.
You said:

Belief and predictions based on them are endemic. Religions,
politics, economics, science, and just about anything else are
all beset by predictions based on strong belief. So while there
are strong convictions that, say, the ozone holes are a disaster
and global warming is in our future, there are equally strong
convictions to the contrary.
********************

This is a fairly common position for the thinking person who lives in a world of
muti-complexities - as is the arrogance of many, the "I as god" concept of the
so-called expert. The "I as god" self-serving position is even common to the expert.
Some even deserve it, most do not. Pure academia is not supposed to be related to
ego and ambition. But his happens also. We are all human. Pure academia is not
supposed to be influenced by vested interest, be it personal ambition, corporate
ambition or political ambition. This too happens. The real question is the extent by
which all of this affects truth and accuracy. This situation is a constant.
Remember always that pure academia is a search for truth as a response to the
curious mind. It never quite achieves this, but often comes close. Humans would
never have walked on the moon, or studied geology and astronomy if the search for
knowledge was constrained in our past.

But now to have a little fun with a misconception or two with your examples:
First the hole in the ozone situation. My lesser background in meterology would
seem to confirm the dynamics for a concentration of fluor-hydrocarbons etc. in
polar regions. There is other more anecdotal proof as well involving the rise in skin
cancer incidences of Inuit to problems with cataracks of sheep in the Falkland
Islands. Yes it is a problem. There is more reason to believe ozone depletion does
exist as a serious concern than not.

Environmental info has been impeached more than once: Moe Udall,
Jimmy Carter's Interior Sec. was my first "Gotcha!." He endorsed
Sears phosphate free laundry detergent as the cause for
eutrophication of America's lakes.
Turns out the science was less than rigorous, and in fact it was
later discovered that the cause was nitrates from agricultural
run-off due to over-fertilizing. I'll come back to this incident
in a moment because it illustrates several points.
*******************************
This one I find particularly amusing - as you became a victim as a member of the
dumb public who has consistently kept him or herself ignorant of the real world. I
can say that without worrying too much about insult because my family also bought
the scam to some little extent.
This wasn't science, it was marketing with misinformation. It is easy to blame the
scientific community for these things, but I can guarantee that the ecologists must
have been amused by Proctor and Gamble's ploy. Such marketing misinformation
is an accepted methodology in our culture, and an unfortunate one in that it casts a
credibility gap on other "green" products that are credible. Obviously the solution
to this was some regulation and tightening of phosphorus use by farmers. Pretty
hard to do.... Nevertheless I don't believe Libertarians would agree with this
(apparently most other jurisdictions haven't either - so the damage is on-going). Dead
lakes are a price "we" pay for irresponsible behavior. Population pressure and a
need for food would dictate that we can do little about this. So the loss of lakes
becomes "normal" for most of the population. They accept gradually, as they always
do, these more visible degradations and losses. Much in the same way that most of
the population accepts a landscape of farms - and consider still somehow that they
are "out in the country". Same thing. It's the cost of doing business. (smile) Does
this landscape kill people and make they unhealthy. Yes to that too. But this too
they get used to as just part of the landscape. Property rights will simply give people
more latitude to be irresponsible - because most are too incompetent about
hydrology, run-off, pesticide impacts, - all that technical end (even discounting the incredible rationalizations of self-interest) - to make responsible
decisions. They are all meat on the table to the "Proctor and Gambles" out there
(smile). I don't think I am being illogical here. I see this every day.
I just talked to a lady on the phone who needed directions to my house. I used a
large woodlot as a landmark. She did not know what I was talking about because
she never noticed this large area of woods. It was not something she "saw" even as a local. A little sign on
the corner, she noticed. (smile)
**Oil spills are another environmental "disaster" that is regularly
used in less than a candid manner. It's clear that while more
frequent than in the "natural" environment, they are no more
damaging than an equivalent natural oil seepage, one of which in
Titusville, led to the first commercial oil well -- not to
mention the theme-song of The Beverly Hillbillies. As reported
in Science News, a year after the massive Iraqi oil revenge in
the Gulf, researchers could find few signs anything had happened.
***********
Correct, the total minor leaks from millions of crank cases etc are greater totals than the larger greater spills.
*****************

Another example is so-called "acid rain" which persists as urban
myth despite the largest most expensive scientific study to date,
referreed by none other than Paul Erlich himself. The
conclusion, after two (or was it five) years of study was that
acid rain, if it exists at all, is a rare and attenuated
phenomenon. (This isn't to say other problems from coal burning
power plants don't exist, just that "acid rain" isn't one of
them.) Subsequent research suggests, for example, that the acidification
of the Adirondack lakes is caused by rain water passing through
the decomposing pine needles from the trees now surrounding them.
The previous stands of pines were logged out early in the
century, allowing the lakes to reach a more neutral ph, at which
point what was thought to be "base line" data was recorded, but
once the trees regrew, what was actually the more "normal"
acidity returned.

At any rate, let's just say that environmental claims must be
closely examined for veracity now, just as any other claims which
have taken on political content.
*********
I really love this one. This is total disinformation and I can say with absolute
confidence that this was one of the "bought" studies. This is MY area of expertise. In my locale I
can drive around and get an accurate reading of bedrock geology in terms of
lime-bearing or no lime lithology just based on the health of the trees growing on
these structures. I do this for amusement -verification comes when I pass the rock
cuts. Trees don't die from the tops down. They die from the bottoms up.
That Reagan position that acid rain did not exist was aired on sixty minutes. It was
bogus and obvious (to me) the possible result of a political agenda. Most people do
not understand lakes or apparently do not even notice the vegetation surrounding
them much. We live in pine country too (moreso even than the Adirondacks) and I
can guarantee that few lakes are totally surrounded by pines. Also lake levels are
NOT just maintained by run-off. Most do not have internal drainage (actually this
is rather rare and peatlands generally evolve in these situations), but are networked.
Lakes represent the level of the local water table. They form in depressions that are
below the water table. This alone would make that study conclusion you describe as
ludicrous. The adirondacks are similar to the Algonquin Dome in Ontario. Same
geology. It is a huge are of lime-poor rocks - no buffering available for the lakes. The
lakes normally have a low pH. But acidification from rain is gradually killing them
now - where before they were in the bio-mass sense simply not very rich.
Does it happen in other areas. Yes. I live in a relatively lime-rich area. I see the
symptoms. Most people do not know trees. They miss the symptoms and accept
what they hear on the media.
In Ontario they are doing a study to establish the baseline you mention - a lake that
they gradually acidify. This very large model conforms to what the reality is. Acid
rain is a severe problem. Reagan lied or was duped. Sixty Minutes either lied or was
duped. It does not really matter. The population was emminently "dupeable".
Libertarian philosophy seems to imply that the natural process of all human behaviors will
follow market directions (and as an academic and a resonsible human being who knows
there is more to life than economic activity) whereby the system of feedom in a reactive
sense will address all concerns for the betterment of all.
I have read all your words and visited the Libertarian with considerable interest and am at
best unconvinced, at worst I am alarmed. We will not convince each other the errors of
our views in this venu. Time limitations alone would not permit this. My experience in my
field took years of academic training and thirty years of field observations - and a lot of cold
objective thinking. . I am fairly acquainted with the environmental problems out there -
also the cultural/political/economic and historic roots of them. It would take the same time
and similar learning curve for you to incorporate and assimmilate what I know in order to
come to the same conclusions as I have. In that the Libertarian Party has NO position on
this proves to me that in this omission or naivity or movement to a reactionary direction
that this implies is a road to an excelleration of "environmental" problems. To not have a
platform or position on "ecological environmental" problems currently existing is a
defacto dismissal of their importance. There is simply no other way to look at this.
So, at the risk sounding arrogantly dismissive, I say this. But I say this also with little hope
that mankind will prevail long on the planet in his relationship with the planet life support
system.
Now I make a statement that I am sure will be taken out of context by most on this forum.
It is not a moral position, it is not one that gives me much personal comfort or
reassurance. Virtually all "environmental" problems are based on socio-economic factors
and fueled by over population. As a realist and I hope an objective one, the salvation of
the species I am sure will now come down solving the population problem. Perhaps this
could mean whether or not we solve the AID's problem. If we solve the AIDs problem,
then we are probably doomed. If we do not, then population levels will in time be lowered
to a point possibly low enough and soon enough that ecologies will recover their health. A species specific disease would likely
cause less collateral damage, for example, than a war.
There is also the ecological way of looking at the human being as simply a life-form among many
on the planet. THAT I believe is a demonstratively objective view. Looking at this with total objectivity without any spin whatsoever, one can
even say that ecologically, the human organism functions as a disease against other life
forms. A disease that progressively reduces the life support systems of a whole planet.
No I don't think Libertarians offer many solutions to this. I think any Libertarian society
would win the race to the bottom.

That seems to be my non-ideological position. It offers little comfort to me because I care about an area (natural history) that most of the population (apparently by their actions against it) consider as dismissable. I say this in terms of realpolitics and behaviors not political posturing.
I do not have a vested interest in my belief system in this area. This alone would imply objectivity by most standards.

I pursue this interest out of curiosity and a thirst for knowledge.

So in a way I am both the incomprehensible heretic to the materialist, and a rebel with a cause. But I am not one of the bought, I am not an ideologue, and I don't put round pegs in square holes. I cannot ignore the fact that they do not fit.

To my knowledge. (smile)

PH in LA (11/21/00; 10:12:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 41926)
Wierd is in the air
http://espn.go.com/page2/s/thompson/001120.html
For fans of Hunter Thompson only!

ORO (11/21/00; 09:42:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 41925)
Overheard - life begins...

when the kids leave the house...



wolavka (11/21/00; 09:27:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 41924)
dollar index DXH
close , 11745-50 trend line. they wait for the news of court to break it.

wolavka (11/21/00; 09:20:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 41923)
Tell the truth
Okay, is this an O.J. RERUN????

USAGOLD (11/21/00; 09:18:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 41922)
Now at the Daily Market Report page:
http://www.usagold.com/DailyQuotes.html

"Dissecting the Good News: You Don't Need a Weatherman to Know Which Way the Wind Blows"

Journeyman (11/21/00; 08:57:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 41921)
Abortion @ALL

ORO's right and pro-lifers are right. Our ancestors fairly often killed un-fit babies. And the old and decrepit -- often with their own complicity. The myths survive the acts: Spartan women who threw their club-footed baby sons off a cliff. The Amerindians who gave the old a day's worth of food and left them in some shady glen. Ditto the Eskimos (minus the glen usually).

Such decisions were never easy. Put put yourself in the picture. Your baby, if you're a woman. Could YOU leave your mom with a day's worth of food, knowing she would almost certainly die. Imagine it. Could you do it? Such things fly in the face of nearly all our basic instincts.

I've helped several women who had gone through abortions, and believe me, though they knew what they were doing and would have again under the circumstances, they were not happy campers.

Especially in our archaeological past, it simply wasn't possible for our small subsistence groups to support the infirm or a club-footed child or adult who would never be able to survive on his or her own. So what do you do?

My mother is talking about it being time to go. She hurts alot, can't read easily anymore (her favorite pass time) has trouble getting around, etc. She says all the little pains and frustrations are sucking all the rewards from living away from her. I really don't like this, but I can see it's true. I can see how this, in combination with subsistence-group fragility, could lead to the shady glen scenario -- and it would be a difficult and emotional situation indeed.

Someone yesterday posted traumatic reactions of some women he'd councilled outside an abortion clinic. We don't need to worry about "casual abortions" or casual euthanasia for the old -- unless it becomes somehow institutionalized in a "government." In the rare instances they really are casual, it's probably just as well. The woman involved probably isn't ready for motherhood. And there's no shortage of humans -- there will be plenty more of us don't you think?

We have less excuse today because, physically at least, we're no longer subsistance groups. But we regularly farm-out our old parents to nursing homes (usually better described as warehouses), rather than leaving them in the glen. I believe that's largely because since "one parent works to support the family and the other to support the government," in terms of free time which would enable us to care for our older parents, we are still indeed "subsistance groups."

Regards,
Journeyman

P.S. Egypt just recalled it's ambassador to Israel, citing increasing violence as the reason.


Silverback (11/21/00; 08:23:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 41920)
BORING!
Normal late morning drop in gold prices. Same old thing, up on the open, midmorning drop, and then we fight back to little or no change. Is today the same old same old?

Journeyman (11/21/2000; 8:04:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 41919)
PREDICTIONS!! (and y'all know to watch-out for them cause they're ALL uncertain & thus dangerous!)

At least this one's from a PROFESSIONAL gambler! He may be "talking his book" -- but he's shown some genuine social response ability lately. Like Clinton, he may be thinking about his "legacy." He could also be wrong -- or right!

"As for concerns that the low U.S. savings rate puts the dollar at risk, Soros said that, contrary to
some negative prognoses, the current state of affairs "can be sustained quite long." In a bear market,
the foreign investors who have enabled the U.S. economy to keep humming despite a paucity of
domestic individual savings are unlikely to feel safer in repatriating funds to their home countries.
Even amid a downturn, Soros said, the dollar "is likely to remain strong."

And it's not the savings rate per-se.

The essence of the prediction is his read that foreign investors "are unlikely to feel safer in repatriating funds to their home countries." Can Soros know this? Can anyone?

If the dollar were defined as a certain amount of gold and paper/megabyte dollar promissory notes were dependably redeemable for this gold as per the US Constitution, would there be any probability foreigners would feel at all unsafe holding them under any imaginable circumstances? Would repatriation be even a mild probability?

Regards, j.


Journeyman (11/21/2000; 7:48:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 41918)
The link!! (from last message)
http://www.usagold.com/gildedopinion/bigfloat.html

Duh!!

j.


justamereBear (11/21/2000; 7:42:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 41917)
Cavan man 41912

Sharefin is a retired or semi retired Aussie fisherman who is one of the nice people of the world. Hangs out on the other side mostly. A chartist, he spends up to 18 hours per day maintaining his site and educating others. I don't understand charts, but I have a lot of time for what he has to say and read most of his posts.

j'Bear

Buena Fe (11/21/2000; 7:40:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 41916)
wally world?
http://www.msnbc.com/news/493037.asp?0cm=c20
Trade gap soars to record
ASSOCIATED PRESS

WASHINGTON, Nov. 21 — The U.S. trade deficit surged to a record $34.3 billion in September as Americans’ appetite for cars, clothes and other foreign goods hit an all-time high while exports shrank slightly.

Excerpt:Critics of the Clinton administration's trade policy, however, argue that the exploding trade deficit will come back to haunt the country when domestic growth starts to falter.
Economists also worry that the billions of dollars transferred to foreigners to pay for all the imports represents a threat to the U.S. dollar and could trigger sharp drops in the U.S. stocks if foreign investors suddenly decide to dump their U.S. holdings.
A blue-ribbon U.S. Trade Deficit Review Commission created by Congress to study the problem divided sharply along party lines earlier this month on causes of the deficit.

Journeyman (11/21/2000; 7:37:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 41915)
Levels of ignorance @ORO, ALL
Hi ORO,

A few days ago you posted, suggesting that these guys (Gush and Bore) must know what they're getting into. I think we tend to overestimate the intelligence of the so-called experts out there. Remember justamereBear's characterization of especially forex fund managers as essentially "momentum gamblers?"

Another point on that line:

-The trade deficit came in at another record high of $34.26 billion in September. Mark Hanes (anchor) and Kathleen Hays (bond reporter) banter: Hanes says that the trade deficit thing should be watched, but it confuses him. Kathleen Hays agrees. Hanes dismisses it, commenting that "buying all that stuff from overseas is a sign of industrial strength isn't it?" -CNBC, 21 November, 2000, ~9:16:48 AM

If any of you readers take their lead and think the trade deficit thing should be watched -- and you too are confused (and believe me, by Mark Hanes statement, THEY are), if you haven't before, check-out the link above for some grounding!

Regards,
j.


Pandagold (11/21/2000; 7:09:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 41914)
Sorry
Sorry about the duplication readers, it was an error when submitting

Cavan Man (11/21/2000; 7:06:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 41913)
Jack Frost
25 inches in Buffalo and a foot in Cleveland today. That's a lot more normal than last 3-5 years.

Cavan Man (11/21/2000; 7:05:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 41912)
SteveH
Steve, any idea who this sharefin chap is?

Pandagold (11/21/2000; 7:04:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 41911)
Some thoughts, on gold, to ponder
Some thoughts (of others on gold) to ponder:
"The most important thing about money is to maintain its stability, so that a dollar will buy as much a year hence or ten years hence, or fifty years hence as today, and no less.

With paper money, this stability has to be maintained by government. With a gold currency it tends to maintain itself even when the natural supply is increased by the discovery of new deposits, because of the curious fact that the demand for gold in the world is practically infinite.

You have to chose (as a voter) between trusting to the natural stability of gold, and the natural stability, and honesty and intelligence of the members of the government. And, with due respect to these gentlemen, I advise you, as long as the capitalist system shall last, to vote for gold

George Bernard Shaw

"........But it (gold) has two defects, it isn't hard enough, it wears itself out quickly, leaving itself on the linings of our pockets and in the sweat of our skins. Every year, the worlds stock is invisibly reduced by friction. I said that gold had two defects.......The other and by far the major defect is that it is the talisman of fear.

Fear, Mr Bond, takes gold out of circulation and hoards it against the evil day. In a period of history when every tomorrow may be the evil day, it is fair enough to say that a fat proportion of the gold that is dug out of one corner of the Earth is at once buried again in another corner.

Ian Fleming, Goldfinger (1959)

These, and many others that could be quoted, are sound judgments on gold's place in the world. But we who follow these edicts by men of knowledge, and our own instincts, are confounded by the behaviour of gold today. Even though we could accept that it need not be reaching for the skies, it is hard for us to understand why it should be plumbing the depths.

Maybe, of all the observations, part of the answer lies in that of Tolkien - " All that is gold does not glisten" (Lord of the Rings) It is certainly a prophecy of today's financial markets.

There is much prophecy and philosophy in song. Remember - "It was only a paper moon, shining over a cardboard sea.........."

In our virtual real, 21st Century, world, the tangible has been replaced by the intangible. The amount of gold being traded on the world's markets far exceeds its physical existence. In other words, as long as there is paper, the economic fundamentals of supply and demand of physical gold has less and less relevance, and will continue to confound traditional economists who believe their discipline a science consisting of irrefutable, and unchangeable laws.

The financial system, not because of manipulations per se, but of their excesses, could be diagnosed as now having terminal cancer. It could die tomorrow, or drag on for years. Unfortunately, when death comes, as, unless a miracle cure is found it must, the fact we have been forewarned will be no less devastating. Some 'insurance’, however, may alleviate the pain and suffering that will follow.

There is one unfortunate consideration; with modern medicine, they can prolong life, even when it has reached the. unnatural, terminal stage; as a consequence, the insurance may only benefit our heirs.

Pandagold 11.2000


Pandagold (11/21/2000; 7:04:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 41910)
Some thoughts, on gold, to ponder
Some thoughts (of others on gold) to ponder:
"The most important thing about money is to maintain its stability, so that a dollar will buy as much a year hence or ten years hence, or fifty years hence as today, and no less.

With paper money, this stability has to be maintained by government. With a gold currency it tends to maintain itself even when the natural supply is increased by the discovery of new deposits, because of the curious fact that the demand for gold in the world is practically infinite.

You have to chose (as a voter) between trusting to the natural stability of gold, and the natural stability, and honesty and intelligence of the members of the government. And, with due respect to these gentlemen, I advise you, as long as the capitalist system shall last, to vote for gold

George Bernard Shaw

"........But it (gold) has two defects, it isn't hard enough, it wears itself out quickly, leaving itself on the linings of our pockets and in the sweat of our skins. Every year, the worlds stock is invisibly reduced by friction. I said that gold had two defects.......The other and by far the major defect is that it is the talisman of fear.

Fear, Mr Bond, takes gold out of circulation and hoards it against the evil day. In a period of history when every tomorrow may be the evil day, it is fair enough to say that a fat proportion of the gold that is dug out of one corner of the Earth is at once buried again in another corner.

Ian Fleming, Goldfinger (1959)

These, and many others that could be quoted, are sound judgments on gold's place in the world. But we who follow these edicts by men of knowledge, and our own instincts, are confounded by the behaviour of gold today. Even though we could accept that it need not be reaching for the skies, it is hard for us to understand why it should be plumbing the depths.

Maybe, of all the observations, part of the answer lies in that of Tolkien - " All that is gold does not glisten" (Lord of the Rings) It is certainly a prophecy of today's financial markets.

There is much prophecy and philosophy in song. Remember - "It was only a paper moon, shining over a cardboard sea.........."

In our virtual real, 21st Century, world, the tangible has been replaced by the intangible. The amount of gold being traded on the world's markets far exceeds its physical existence. In other words, as long as there is paper, the economic fundamentals of supply and demand of physical gold has less and less relevance, and will continue to confound traditional economists who believe their discipline a science consisting of irrefutable, and unchangeable laws.

The financial system, not because of manipulations per se, but of their excesses, could be diagnosed as now having terminal cancer. It could die tomorrow, or drag on for years. Unfortunately, when death comes, as, unless a miracle cure is found it must, the fact we have been forewarned will be no less devastating. Some 'insurance’, however, may alleviate the pain and suffering that will follow.

There is one unfortunate consideration; with modern medicine, they can prolong life, even when it has reached the. unnatural, terminal stage; as a consequence, the insurance may only benefit our heirs.

Pandagold 11.2000


Black Blade (11/21/2000; 6:43:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 41909)
API numbers out this afternoon - Black Gold
Source: BridgeNews
By Renee Lawrence, BridgeNews

London--Nov. 21--IPE January Brent crude futures were trading firmer late Tuesday morning as players began to buy ahead of the Thanksgiving holiday break in the United States, brokers said. IPE December gas oil futures were weaker on profit-taking after a bullish run on Monday, brokers added. At 1154 GMT, IPE January Brent futures were trading at U.S. $33.18 per barrel and December gas oil futures were at $319.00. "Brent's been up and down this morning but there is more buying expected ahead of Thanksgiving, we'll see more movement tomorrow morning after the APIs are out," one broker said. --Weekly U.S. oil stock data due out later Tuesday from the American Petroleum Institute (API) is expected to show that inventories of crude oil fell by 500,000-900,000 barrels last week, while gasoline stocks are also expected to have declined by 1-1.4 million barrels, according to brokers and analysts. Distillate fuels are expected to have fallen 500,000-900,000 barrels, while refinery runs are seen higher by 0.5 to 0.9 percentage points of capacity.

Black Blade: This afternoon's API inventory numbers could be interesting ahead of the Thanksgiving Holiday season. Any lower than expected numbers could trigger much higher price spikes than usual due to positioning ahead of the short trading week. Could get fun!


DaveC (11/21/2000; 6:42:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 41908)
wolavka (11/21/2000; 5:28:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 41899)
Don't scare me like that. I had to look at my charts again!

Long and strong.


DaveC (11/21/2000; 6:39:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 41907)
SteveH (11/21/2000; 5:46:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 41903)
Careful, don't take Soros at face value. George will put George first and anything he says is for a reason, and not just help enlighten us. IMHO.


DaveC (11/21/2000; 6:35:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 41906)
JeffC
If I seemed a smarta$$ my apologies. Technoman and analogman are just cute terms used recently by another writer to identify those who were wrapped up in the NASDAQ mania and those that sat it out.

What I was trying to show, I will repeat again, is how words are used to change the debate on any given subject. Abortion was chosen because it has meaning to my original intended audience, members of my wife's family to be exact, and because it is a subject that has been in the spotlight for a long time.

I was also only trying to outline how we have been programmed to not consider life precious anymore. We are now killing at both ends of the spectrum, young and old. There is no outrage. And when there is, it's directed at inanimate objects like handguns instead of at the real causes, like poor role models, no fathers, and a society that makes women fell less than human is they are not out working and competing with the men.

But the argument is changed by the mass media and the citizens are programmed to be "enlightened" zombies.

I repeat, I have never advocated laws prohibiting the practice of abortion, as I do not believe they would work.

I am an illegitimate child. My mother and father married before I was born in 1958. They did the right thing. However my father left soon after never to be seen again. So as you can see, if my mother, who was 35 at the time with a career and childless, was as "enlightened" as today's "modern" woman there is a high percentage probability that I would not be here, and frankly, I do not like that idea.

For some reason you keep going back to technology in your essays. Technology to me is overrated in many cases and especially in this case. For me, life has become to precious to be wrapped up in trying to determine when it might begin scientifically. I think we are moving way to fast technically and we, as humans and as a society, are not ready for it. Therefore I have to ignore your constant references to technology.

Same with the legal argument. Shoot all the (*&^%$# lawyers, politicians and judges for all I care. The country would be a whole lot better off.

As for determining when life begins, I think it rather arrogant of us to make this determination. No one knows and no one will ever know. But that little guy in there has a beating heart, moving limbs and a developing brain just like me right now. Is he self-sufficient? No. Neither is a 2-year-old who can't wipe his own butt and we don't kill them, yet.

If I take a 6-month-old "fetus" out of the womb and put it in a room alone will he survive? No. If I take a 1-year-old away from his mother and put him in a room alone will he survive? No. What's the difference? Since neither can survive alone, when does "life" begin?

And no where in nature do animals kill their UNBORN. Only "enlightened" Homo sapiens do that. We are part of nature. We share many common traits with animals and we are different. But we can learn from them also.

I hope this ends this discussion as I grow weary of the constant technological arguments. I have been in the high-tech field for 24 years and it never ceased to amaze me how difficult "technoman" can make things.

I have a little saying that I like to use when talking to people about things like this, or whether the US Constitution is "outdated."

"Times may change, but basic fundamental ideas do not."

Basic fundamental ideas to me are summed up in such easy to understand documents as the Ten Commandments and the Bill of Rights. It is unfortunate that in our techno-savy, legal happy world we don't stop to smell the roses and remember the basics.

Good luck.


SteveH (11/21/2000; 5:57:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 41905)
repost
http://www.safehaven.ca/GIC112100.htm
snippet --

In an attempt to clarify our hypotheses, allow us to review our intermediate expectations. We suspect that the oil problem is really a dollar problem and believe that we have provided enough evidence to make that a strong argument. Hence, we had expected and fully expect that the US Administration will continue to apply one Band-Aid after another on a brewing storm, which has much more to do with dollar inflation and much less to do with "oil" supply imbalances than Uncle Sam is letting on.

(thanks sharefin)

SteveH (11/21/2000; 5:51:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 41904)
I remember now what the guest commentator said...
on CNN this morning.

He said that the large growth of both Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac has caused Graham and Baker (Senators?) to look carefully at their derivative positions and deterimine if they have lived up to their intent of keeping mortgage rates low.

As a follow on, I remember hearing yesterday that if Mr. Gore becomes the Pres., he will be seriously considering officials from these (see above) organizations as Secretary of Treasurer. This, of course, must be seriously called into question. I believe the practice of appointing top bankers or persons from the above organizations into the top money spot in the Executive branch is a gross conflict of interest, much akin to appointing the fox to guard the hen house. No wonder the ESF is suspected of financial meddlings.

SteveH (11/21/2000; 5:46:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 41903)
Soro's
http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/current/soros.htx?source=htx/http2_mw
snippet--

As for concerns that the low U.S. savings rate puts the dollar at risk, Soros said that, contrary to some negative prognoses, the current state of affairs "can be sustained quite long." In a bear market, the foreign investors who have enabled the U.S. economy to keep humming despite a paucity of domestic individual savings are unlikely to feel safer in repatriating funds to their home countries. Even amid a downturn, Soros said, the dollar "is likely to remain strong."



SteveH (11/21/2000; 5:43:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 41902)
Watching CNN this morning...
the guest commentator said that Sept 2001 is when their projections showed defaults in Credit markets peaking. Anybody else watch that guy? He said a few other interesting things, I was half asleep though and didn't register them fully.

SteveH (11/21/2000; 5:38:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 41901)
Fazio's Speech
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_00/fazio112200.html
snippet --

This view appears to be shared by the central banks of the leading industrial countries; when they signed the September 1999 agreement, they stated that gold continued to have an important role to play in the management of global reserves. It is up to economists to analyze whether and to what extent, in an international monetary system that has surely not yet become fully consistent in many of its parts, reference to gold, which performed a monetary function for thousands of years, can still contribute, in the decades ahead, to preserving that fundamental condition for orderly economic activity — price stability.



DaveC (11/21/2000; 5:36:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 41900)
Black Blade (11/21/2000; 0:05:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 41892)
BB, Now that you mention it, Kent State did come up in one of our conversations. Whoever we were talking to had heard about it. I think it was my British friends.

The other interesting topic was the late 60s riots, as I lived close to Detroit and remember watching it burn, baby, burn in 1969.

But history never repeats.

Wish I had some money to buy some more silver right now!


wolavka (11/21/2000; 5:28:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 41899)
CREATURES
Watch for large swings in range, if you evolved you'd be an evolver and we all know that's what kills people.

dec gold stops run down to 262-263 range.

SteveH (11/21/2000; 5:19:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 41898)
I don't know if Paul really said this, but it is interesting
Paul Harvey Commentary

For thousands of years of governments have been killing people.
Eventually, some people figured out a way to create a balance
such that this could not happen again. And for hundreds of years it
worked. But then, people decided it would be a good idea if
society ridded itself of the balance, because there was some
inherent danger. Hmmm? Are you considering backing gun control
laws??? Do you think that because you may not own a gun, the
rights guaranteed by the Second Amendment don't matter?

CONSIDER THIS... In 1929 the Soviet Union established gun
control. From
1929 to 1953, approximately 20 million dissidents, unable to
defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915-1917, 1.5
million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up
and exterminated.

Germany established gun control in 1938. From 1939 to 1945, 13
million Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally ill, and others,
who were unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and
exterminated.

China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20
million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were
rounded up and exterminated.

Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981,
100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were
rounded up and exterminated.

Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979,
300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up
and exterminated.

Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one
million "educated" people, unable to defend themselves, were
rounded up and exterminated.

That places total victims who lost their lives because of gun control
at approximately 56 million in the last century.

Since we should learn from the mistakes of history, the next time
someone talks in favor of gun control, find out which group of
citizens they wish to have exterminated.

It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were
forced to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed, a
program costing the government more than $500 million dollars.
The results Australia-wide: Homicides are up 3.2%, Assaults are
up 8 %, and Armed robberies are up 44%. In that country's state of
Victoria, homicides with firearms are up 300%. Over the previous
25 years, figures show a steady decrease in armed robberies and
Australian politicians are on the spot and at a loss to explain how
no improvement in "safety" has been observed after such
monumental effort and expense was successfully expended in
"ridding society of guns."

It's time to state it plainly; Guns in the hands of honest citizens
save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws only affect the
law-abiding citizens. Take action before it's too late. Write or call
your delegation.

Paul Harvey


SteveH (11/21/2000; 4:39:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 41897)
Nominate for HOF
I hereby nominate Al Fulchino (11/20/00; 20:58:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 41876) for the USAGOLD Hall of Fame.

Why?

I was moved by Al's simple and powerful argument that our nation today must hold on to its founding principles in order to remain strong today. It is our roots that must be watered and cared for or else the tree will fall. I took his message to heart and feel it deserving of preservation in the HOF.

Any seconds?


SteveH (11/21/2000; 4:36:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 41896)
for DaveC from JeffC
a pass-through:

Steve,
I signed up for the forum, (screen name of Jeff C.) however the
confirmation / approval has not yet come through. In the interest
of keeping this discussion current, I would appreciate it if you
could post the following response from me.

Dave,

I am unfamiliar with the terms "technoman" and "analogman", so I
cannot tell you which I consider myself. However, I can reassure
you that I am not "wrapped up in the science". I personally feel
abortion is wrong and almost certainly the sin of murder (excepting
cases of rape or where it is necessary to save the life of the mother).
However, I was not talking about what is a sin. I was talking about
how human laws can deal with the issue. And human laws, especially
in this country where everyone is free to practice their own religion
(a good thing), of a necessity must deal with science. Regarding the
reference to "nature", I fail to see the comparison. Animals, from a
religious teaching, have no soul and from a humanistic teaching, have
no intellect, and from both have no "free will". Therefore they can
have no morals - good or bad - and cannot sin. Just because
something happens in nature, does not make it right for a human
being, and by the same token, just because it does not happen
does not make it wrong.

This issue is a direct result of increasing technology. Every increase
in technology has potential benefits and the potential for abuse. If
medical technology had not advanced to the point where it was
possible to perform an abortion, this issue would not exist. It would
also not be possible to perform surgery on an unborn baby. Two
sides of the same coin. However, I feel that God guides us to find
a way out of moral dilemmas such as this that we make for ourselves.

In this case the dilemma is how to enforce a legal prohibition against
murder, while at the same time upholding a legal prohibition against
slavery (for what else is it when one is forced to give up control of
their own body?). Prior to the ability to perform an abortion, it was
widely accepted that life began at birth (with the noted exception of
devout Catholics). Afterwards the issue was brought to open
debate that perhaps life began earlier than that. The result was the
first laws prohibiting abortion. You will note that I phrase it as a
"legal" issue. That is because my personal religious beliefs are that
the moral portion of the issue is between the individual and God
exclusively.

When the court overturned the anti-abortion laws, they determined
that an unborn baby was not a person. That finding was (at least
partially) based on the technology of the time. Now, with more
advanced technology, it is possible to say that at a certain point in
fetal development before birth, the baby can be removed from the
womb and not only live, but develop normally. This gives weight to
a legal argument to consider a unborn baby a person after they
reach that stage in development. As technology advances further,
allowing a baby to develop normally outside the womb from an
earlier and earlier stage, that legal argument that it is a person can
also be made at an earlier and earlier stage.

To argue that human life begins at the moment of conception, and
that a fertilized egg has all the rights, under the law, of a human
being is noble. But to apply it in a legal framework on society
requires you to follow one of two paths of reasoning:
1) As human life begins at conception, and the taking of a human
life is murder, every miscarriage must be investigated as a homicide,
with appropriate penalties for any woman who did not go to the
"proper" lengths to protect her unborn child. No cop-outs of "I
didn't know I was pregnant", that would have to be considered
negligent homicide at least. It also means that a woman, from the
moment she has sex (and might be pregnant) until the moment she
gives birth, is an absolute slave to that baby she carries and the
whim of whatever government sanctioned doctors might decide
is in the "babies best interest".
or
2) Being that it is obscenely intrusive (not to mention impossible)
to investigate every miscarriage in this manner, it must be left to
God to determine if the mother committed murder. Which means,
since last I heard God hasn't given us someone who currently lives
on earth that absolutely speaks for him, that society could neither
charge nor convict her of any crime regarding her unborn child.

As the first path is not practical, or even possible in current society
(not to mention being repulsive), and the second path would mean
that all the pro-life organizations would have to stop trying to
prohibit abortions, then arguing that a fertilized egg has all the
rights of a human being from the moment of conception is doomed
to failure unless your only purpose is to educate and/or foster a
religious / ethical debate.

Best regards,

Jeff C.





Black Blade (11/21/2000; 4:34:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 41895)
Let em Freeze!
Lack of preparation hit home in Southern California last week. California power plants had been stressed last summer as the electrical grid came close to collapse and prices for gas generated electricity went higher. Last week the grid nearly collapsed once again as their supply of Natural Gas was cutoff. They were lucky since their old power plants are duel-fuel facilities and were able to burn oil for electricity. This is a problem of course as oil is polluting, and the beautiful people in California become outraged at the thought. Perhaps they would feel better shivering in the dark. New power plants are single fuel facilities, and virtually all of them are Natural Gas fired power plants. Burning oil creates three times as much pollution ands that of course cuts into a power company?s air pollution emission credits (also known as carbon credits). The moral of this story is quite simple really. There is a push to build clean burning Natural Gas power plants even though there is no real reliable Natural Gas supply. This puts the nation?s electrical grid at risk, and therefore is also a severe threat to the economy, including the - gasp! - "New Economy."

State of California officials had hoped to put construction of NG fired power plants on the fast track, but oops! They look to be building themselves out of an electrical problem and straight into a gas problem! You see, diversification works in other areas of life as well, not just in investing. No one seemed to considered the importance of multiple power sources. They thought that a single fuel like NG would be sufficient. Of course I should not pick on California (but damn they make it so easy!), the New England states look to be facing much they same problem. The whole infrastructure for large NG fired power plants simply does not exist! There are not enough or large enough gas pipelines to meet the needs of consumers as well as to feed NG to large power plants. It?s probably all moot anyway. Gas storage levels are down sharply from last year?s levels. Because power plants ran full bore last summer, the winter storage levels are at about 50 billion cubic feet compared to last year?s 87 billion cubic feet. That is 43% less NG! Nationally storage levels are off 8% and the rest of the nation does not feel to charitable toward California. Maybe it is partly because they did not prepare in a classic Aesop "Ant and Grasshopper" style fable situation. Now it?s time to pay the piper. High NG prices push up electricity prices. In California the current average price for electricity is $228 per megawatt hour, that?s double over last year and five times as much as last year. Then again in California there is a NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard) culture when it comesto building power plants. As Dirty Harry would say "That?s a high price for being fashionable." All I can say is - "Get used to it."

- Black Blade



SteveH (11/21/2000; 4:12:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 41894)
Protecting Gold Poster
http://www.jpfo.org/poster-disarm.htm
Caution: Mature audiences only. Must be 21 to view. Material may be sensitive to some.

wolavka (11/21/2000; 3:42:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 41893)
dollar index
should drop today, gold, dec , resistance 270 272 276.
no advice.

Black Blade (11/21/2000; 0:05:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 41892)
RE: DaveC
Your story reminds me of when I was in Myanmar (formerly Burma) a couple of years ago. I was talking to one of the people who had been involved in the Democracy Movement. He went on talking about how the military killed protesting unversity students after the elections were nullified and the military took over. He said "America would never do such a thing!" I said, "Obviously you never heard of Kent State University." He was stunned!

Black Blade (11/21/2000; 0:04:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 41891)
RE: rr and Beesting
http://m1.mny.co.za/MGGold.nsf/Current/4225685F0043D1B24225699C00303590?OpenDocument
The link is to the article "The Real Price of Gold" by Paul van Eeden that you both refer too. I tend to agree with much of his analysis as far as Gold has been an excellent currency against all currencies except the US Dollar. Gold has outperformed the Yen, Euro, Pound, etc. and especially well against the other third world currncies as well. That said, he does not believe that the CB sales and Producer Hedging programs have been a cause. Here is where I tend to disagree. Immediately after the Washinton Agreement where Central Banks put a limit on leasing and sales, the POG rocketed upward in US dollar terms, only to splash down when some obscure Central Banks revealed continuing sales. When Jay Taylor, CEO of Placer Dome Gold (PDG) announced that his company would curtail it's hedging program and begin to unwind current position, the POG rocketed upward once again, only to splash down as Barrick Gold (ABX) announced that not only would they continue to sell forward, but would increase their forward sold position, even bragging that they were financial wizards by doing so, which leads to the possibilty about fears of a rising POG, but that is another story ala Ashanti (ASL) and Cambior (CBJ). However, the article is well worth the read if for anything it does show that gold as a competitive currency is only second to the US Dollar, and when the Dollar devalues, Gold will do exceptionally well.



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