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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 9/20/2001
All times are U.S. Mountain Time
(Yesterday's Discussion.)
BR549
(9/20/01; 22:29:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 62066)
Catching up
@cb2---
I got your message and I hear you. I have not responded to many of your brilliant posts because I have been distracted by the inane words of those not who are not in the same universe with your incisive thoughts. Putin is indeed capable of 911 and there is ample evidence that Russia silently is attempting to regain its former economic and military prominence. An interesting thought that Russia may be directly/indirectly behind 911. I think that this terrorism has deep roots in Iraq and Afghanistan (along with 60 other countries). I do think that it is possible that Russia encouraged this cowardly act via encouraging Saddam. Derivatives may also play a part. I still believe that Afghanistan is running out of time to do avoid what is coming. It is going to take more than the Taliban asking nicely for bin Laden to leave their borders after President Bush's speech tonight. I am afraid that the Taliban will not be able to do without the terrorist bribe money that sponsors their very poor government and their "relatively good life". No more wasted posting energy on my part. Again, thanks for your brilliant posts and your objective words from a far perch.
@Gov. Tom Ridge---
I am glad that President Bush likes you. If he didn't he would have probably given you a dust pan and a mop and sent you into a dying nuclear power plant with orders to clean it up instead of just having to clean up terrorism. God Bless for taking one of the toughest jobs imaginable.
Liberals like pretty pictures of bridges and conservatives like to build bridges that people can drive across---Tom Clancy
It was my understanding that Israel was among the 62 countries who lost their lives on 911 at WTC. How about a real source for these 4K that took a vacation day.
Bill Maherer, CBS-"We have been cowardly lobbing cruise missiles from miles away." In a recent interview he concedes that terrorists blew up our embassies in Africa, which he was against. Two major sponsors have canceled and let's hope that TV his show will soon go the way of the world's terrorists cells.
Interstate (msg#: 62036)—Identities----"I am really getting confused. It seems that Leigh, Karen Sue, BR549, and HBM are all talking to themselves. In other words, posting messages to themselves. Duplication of personages or a case of multiple ego? That's fine for me. Get your kicks anyway that you can so long as noone else is hurt."
BR549-Interstate, how did you know?
@KarenSue—
I have studied insider trading and found a positive correlation between the rise (or fall) of a stock and the buying (or selling) of the corresponding stocks by corporate insiders. The problem is by the time that the disclosures are made public, the timing does not benefit the general investor. I am not sure what the rules for stock buy backs are, but if the SEC felt it was necessary to relax the regulations, then based on my past knowledge, I am sure it was not for the benefit of the ordinary investors. A very interesting topic for future discussion.
So KS it was a good post, let's talk some more. I hope that my multiple EGO is just not just talking to itself (again). In fact I don't remember when we have posted at each other before. Do you? Sorry, I was just talking to myself.
Regards,
BR549
Netking
(9/20/01; 22:05:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 62065)
Signs of the PM squeeze evident - Midas Commentary
WWW.LEMETROPOLECAFE.COM
From the 'MIDAS' COMMENTARY FOR SEPTEMBER 20, 2001:
". . . I received a call from Europe this morning from someone involved in the gold physical market. If you want to
buy 100 ounces of gold, the price is $300 to $303. The spreads between bid and asked were $20 yesterday, $12
today. The disconnect between the physical market and
the paper market has begun. And there is no silver of
any size for sale at all in Europe . . . "
-----------------------------------------------------------
No surprises here huh despite the rhetoric to the contrary from the PPT! As we've said, they'll confess abundance of physical gold & silver right down to the last bar! Countdown for the gold & silver Thermonuclear meltdown has begun . . .
- Netking
auspec
(9/20/01; 22:03:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 62064)
Cavan Man
http://www.manartv.com
This is the link previously put up by Sierra madre, but I have not tried it. I clearly heard GWB mention that over a hundred Israelis died in the WTC tragedy. You know that as soon as this attack happened there would be people talking of some with advance knowledge of the event yet failing to stop it, whether true or not. Sure enough, Skolnick did his shtick for starters only. There is so much information and disinformation out there one can be confident of very little in world events.
Regards,
auspec
annie
(9/20/01; 21:31:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 62063)
Re: American Flags
I was leading into this story in my previous post, then got side tracked. I heard today that Walmart and other stores shipped all their stock of American Flags to NY and Washington for funerals. Brought a tear to my eyes. annie
sector
(9/20/01; 21:23:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 62062)
@tedw About a long and drawn out war...
...Powell is the expert in such matters. There will be replays. No handcuffs.
There are ways to smoke them out that the Russians lacked. There are ways to bait them out in ways that the Russians couldn't appreciate. There are ways to communicate with the watching terroriat nations that previous leaders set aside.
Such was the nature of the weapon of mass destruction used against us, and the abyss between freedom and the enemy'e culture of killing that the Taliban shall recieve no half measure, although they cannot imagine it. And the world expects it. Thus, intensity is guaranteed.
Firemen asked for and recieved their last rites from priests as the entered the burning WTC. At MIdway, decades ago, the men and boys of torpedo squdron 8 also they knew they would not live to see their families.
Take their last man. Only then will they recognize what a mistake it was to harbor the killer BinLaden. Only then will the dark side see what is in store for them.
Mercy? For this alien species? This cultural carcinoma?
Change their US time table. Here is the big war. Find them. Interrogate them...effectively...with pharmcology. Smash the network.
Netking
(9/20/01; 21:21:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 62061)
Day 2 of Arafat's declared "Ceasefire" . . . 10 more on casualty list.
http://debka.com/
Debka intelligence report: "Israeli hospitals, civil aviation and essential supplies placed on war footing, israel's political-security cabinet meets thursday night to discuss rising Israeli casualty toll".
Meanwhile 'Stratfor Global Intelligence' reports Arafat scrambles for cover & why he signed truce with Israel after attack:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24592
- Netking
Netking
(9/20/01; 21:03:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 62060)
Iraqis worry as U.S. prepares for war against terror
http://www.msnbc.com/news/388707.asp?0si=-
Snippet:
Baghdad - More fingers point to Baghdad as potential sponsor of attacks . . . . shouts from soccer games and chatter from bustling cafes were not enough to drown out the whispers of unease in Baghdad's streets Thursday, especially as more fingers pointed to Iraq as a potential sponsor of last Tuesday's terrorist attacks on New York and Washington. "This is an opportunity for the United States to hit Iraq whether we are involved or not. If we are implicated, no one will raise an eyebrow," one merchant said. . . "
annie
(9/20/01; 20:57:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 62059)
@Mr. Gresham
Wow! I'll be in a briefcase with James Turk! I'm honored. Yes. Sometimes I do get determined like that. I reared two children, one 23, MD2b @UAB, and one 33, self-educated in computers, and life. Whenever they got overwhelmed (and sometimes still do!) I would counsel them to "...just take it one piece at the time." That's the only way that I could tackle Turk. First the definitions, then go on from there. I have this fantasy where he will contact me and ask me to do a really simplified version so that all goldbugs everywhere can understand what he's talking about. Of course, he'd have to make a few corrections and explain a little more stuff, first!
Seems like everyone I know has had big, fat portfolios. Well, mine doesn't have any stocks/bonds, except Harmony. Although it's not doing as well as I would like, by comparison, it's not doing too bad.
I saw the WGC worm interviewed (CNBC?) Of course there is no manipulation. Whaddaya, nuts?
If anybody is interested, I will try to get my Turk work a little better organized and easier to understand. I just want to get Randy's input first. It was really a struggle at first, and now that I have a better handle on it, I could probably make it a little easier to read.
I have a little bing-bong that goes off whenever someone enters my web site. It has gone off about 10 times while I was writing this--all for the American Flag, except one little yorkie! It's fun to watch.
Guess I'll give it up for tonight.
We'll all watch together, yes? annie
CoBra(too)
(9/20/01; 20:56:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 62058)
Bush ... G.W. and no Mulberry ...
I was staying up to get a feel of GWB addressing the rest of US.
As I have to admit it was very professionally delivered, though the applause in between distorted some of the excellent rethoric against terrorism, the Taleban and anyone daring to challenge the homeland security. And if you may have missed it - the challenge to "our" banking system was also a topic!
As I don't want to challenge the terror per se, nor the banking system, as the risk of the derivative terror becomes a self fulfilling systemic horror.
... and the real terrorists are the perpetrators of the financial globalists ...
- At least we know, any challenge to the $ will be retaliated - just as an act of terrorism.
Reminds me of the Alamo ... and the rest is history!
Not my day - as they say - ..., no, not true - cb2
Netking
(9/20/01; 20:54:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 62057)
"Justice will be done" - President George W. Bush
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/20/gen.america.under.attack/
Summary of the President speech to both houses of Congress and national audience.
- Netking
tedw
(9/20/01; 20:38:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 62056)
Afganistan
http://www.usagold.com
Good speech by the president.
War with Afghanistan on the horizon. One of the talking heads in Islamabad said the sense is that the Taliban wont give an inch.
Considering the Soviet experience, this looks to be long,drawn,out and not easy.
Let us be mindful of Vietnam and the Gulf war, and that half measures will avail us nothing.
Mr Gresham
(9/20/01; 20:37:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 62055)
annie
That's some deep work on the SDR mystery; you must be a small business bookkeeper, with a bulldog determination to make the books balance. My brain fizzled out early on, but your work deserves a printout to carry with me in the folder with Turk's print. I've gotta catch my brain at just the right moment when it can get around a few more corners in the maze.
I know we think we know what the conclusion is, and we have it strongly shown from so many other directions, that it's not just pure laziness (is it?) to avoid really getting through Turk's detective work. But since it IS the US gold stash that either is or is not being pawned off to support the $, it's pretty darned important.
Isn't it amazing how far in FOA's direction things have slipped? He couldn't have given the detailed path, but the conditions were ripe for each step along the way. I'm thinking in three dimensions now, not just price and time, but market and dollar payments system seize-up, thanks to many here.
The sudden shift of a market to non-functioning, and prices to previously impossible-to-imagine levels: we're seeing it now, and the world is in shock. How much more shock lies ahead?
"There will come a day..."
Black Blade
(9/20/01; 20:30:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 62054)
EMC Cutting More Than 2,000 Jobs
http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/010920/business_tech_emc_dc_2.html
Snippit:
SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Computer storage giant EMC Corp. (NYSE:EMC) announced on Thursday it would cut 10 percent of its work force, more than 2,000 jobs, and probably report a third quarter loss, blaming a widening recession and slowing technology spending.
Black Blade: Tech "Bones" added to the "Bone Pile" as nonessential "Bags of Bones" are cast aside.
Black Blade
(9/20/01; 20:26:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 62053)
Stocks Fall; Dow Weekly Loss Tops 1,200
http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/010920/business_markets_stocks_dc_15.html
Snippit:
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Stocks on Thursday added to horrific losses that have lopped more than 1,200 points off the blue-chip Dow average (.DJI) this week, as corporate warnings of layoffs and worsening earnings after last week's terror attacks stoked fears of more damage to the U.S. economy.
Black Blade: More to come. Waiting to hear what that smug Louis Rukeyser will say and the snide remarks about those who hold Gold. The DOW? Oh yeah, it is grossly overvalued and with most recent declining earnings it would probably be reasonably priced at about DOW 4900 to 5300. That could be revised downward come "Earnings Confession Season" for the last quarter. In a word - "GRIM"
Black Blade
(9/20/01; 20:17:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 62052)
Asian Markets In The Red
http://quote.yahoo.com/m2?u
A "Sea of Red" - Asian Market Indices are starting off the trading session in the Red. Should get much worse. The US markets have much further to fall as more shoes drop. The Reinsurance Industry claims that the WTC related claims are now expected to be double the original estimates. More airlines are expected to layoff and cutback flight schedules, support industries will increase layoffs, and even Las Vegas Casinos are laying off thousands over the next few weeks as tourism and gaming have almost ceased to exist. - Hmmm... let's see... Wayne Newton - "Will Sing For Food" - "Interesting Times"
uponroof
(9/20/01; 20:10:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 62051)
Triple Witching Friday
http://www.lfgfutures.com/
If anyone wants to add to their paper gold/silver positions before the this weekend here's tommorrow's COMEX schedule.
Pres. Bush knows the Taliban will not be turning over squat. They didn't even see the speach....NO TV's in Afghanistan. Seriously, I doubt any US bombing happens this weekend. But you never know.
Besides, at this point, I can't imagine why anyone would want paper gold/silver. It's pretty much 'cankered' right now.
*****************************************************
The NYMEX (COMEX) will conduct abreviated trading sessions as follows:
Copper, Palladium, Platinum, and Propane 8:30am to 11:30am
Gold 8:35am to 11:35am
Silver 8:40am to 11:40am
Natural Gas 9:30am to 12:45pm
Crude Oil, Heating Oil, and Unleaded Gasoline 9:50am to 12:45pm
NOTE: Effective September 20, the LFG Division of Refco WILL accept "normal" Day Orders on a "Not Held" basis for the NYMEX except as follows.
Gold and Silver Options - Market Orders Only
Gold Futures Limits and Stops in $.50 increments
Silver Futures Limits and Stops in $.0050 increments
Crude Oil Futures in $.05 increments
Crude Oil Options in $.10 increments
Heating Oil/Unleaded Gas Options in $.0010 increments
Heating Oil/Unleaded Gas Futures in $.0025 increments
Natural Gas Futures and Options in $.010 increments
FINEX (including the Dollar Index) trading in Dublin will be conducted between 2:00am and 8:30am. Note: Orders for FINEX must be placed through normal channels.
GLOBEX will operate on a regular schedule.
A/C/E will operate on a regular schedule.
ACCESS will be open between 4:00pm and 7:00pm. Note: Orders for ACCESS must be placed through normal channels.
Cavan Man
(9/20/01; 20:01:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 62050)
4000 Israeli's
Could anyone provide the link regarding the allegation that 4000 Israeli's did not show up to work at the WTC?
Black Blade
(9/20/01; 20:01:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 62049)
Forbes Body Count
http://www.forbes.com/2001/01/30/layoffs.html
The stench of rotting corpses grows stronger as more carcasses are tossed upon the ever-growing "Bone Pile." It will continue to grow exponentially as this Recession deepens.
Black Blade
(9/20/01; 19:56:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 62048)
Gold Price manipulation and the World Gold Council
In light of recent events and the lackluster action in the POG, there should be no doubt whatsoever about the POG manipulation. In the case of the WGC, one must "follow the money." The largest contributors to the WGC are also Gold mining's largest Gold shorts, specifically AngloGold and Barrick. One does not bite the hand that feeds him. It is not surprising that representatives of the WGC would emphatically deny any existence of POG manipulation. You can take that to the Bank!
- Black Blade
annie
(9/20/01; 18:20:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 62047)
@Randy
Randy. Hello. It is my understanding that you have a pretty firm grasp on James Turk's "Mystery of the Disappearing SDR Certificates". I have made a concentrated effort to do the same, myself, but I have ended up with more questions (perhaps) than answers. I was hoping that you would review my work and help me advance my level of understanding. I think lots of us gold bugs want to understand what Turk is saying, so I am asking, not just for myself, but for others as well.
I think that Turk's work is of extreme importance and relevance and will be most appreciative if you can help me get a fuller understanding.
This is my "work in progress". Thanks for any help you can offer. Annie (Sorry about the charts not coming out so well. I hope you have access to the original.)
Exchange Stabization Fund..........Federal Reserve
..(Assets)..........(Liabilities)...(Assets)....
(in millions).....................(in millions)
.......SDR... .......SDR.......SDR........SDR....Gold
......Holdings......Certs...Allocations..Certs....Certs
Dec-98.....10,603....9,200.......6,899....9,200......11,046
Mar-99….....9,682....8,200.......6,653....8,200......11,049
Jun-99..…...9,719....8,200.......6,545....8,200......11,046
Sep-99.....10,284....7,200.......6,799....7,200......11,047
Dec-99.....10,336....6,200.......6,717....6,200......11,048
Mar-00.....10,335....6,200.......6,599...…6,200......11,048
Jun-00.....10,444....4,200.......6,552....4,200......11,046
Sep-00.....10,316....3,200.......6,359....3,200......11,046
Dec-00.....10,539....2,200.......6,384....2,200......11,046
Mar-01…..N/a.….....n/a..........n/a.......2,200......11,046
After reading James Turk's "Mystery of the Disappearing SDR Certificates" several times, then reading from the start and trying to put things together piece by piece, I decided to focus for a while on the table presented in Turk's work. Easy. Just start with the definitions. Well. The easy ones, that is.
Gold Certificates are claims against US Treasury Gold Reserves. All the 261.1 million ounces are represented by the Certificates in the far right column. The number of Certificates varies from 11,044 to 11,049. Hmmmm.
SDR's are IMF fiat. It functions in the same way as a currency; it is used to balance trade accounts, etc., between central banks. Just like any fiat, "Its value as a reserve asset derives from the commitments of participants to hold and accept SDR's and to honor various obligations connected with its proper functioning as a reserve asset."
According to Turk: "The First Amendment created SDR's. The Second Amendment to the Articles of Agreement of the IMF, which came into effect in April 1978, eliminated the use of gold as the common denominator of the par value system and as the basis of the value of the SDR."
Hmmmm. The Amendment "…eliminated the use of gold…." But creation of SDR's was not enough to remove gold from the global exchange process. According to Turk: "Here's what the IMF says about the use of SDR's in swaps: "In accordance with Article XIX, Section 2(c), the Fund prescribes that...a participant, by agreement with another participant, may engage in an operation by which (a) one of the parties transfers [i.e., swaps] to the other party SDRs in exchange for an equivalent amount of currency or another monetary asset, other than gold."
"Any monetary asset…other than gold."
Turk observes: "Thus, SDR's cannot be swapped for gold, but there is no IMF regulation that prohibits the swapping of SDR Certificates for gold." Let's look back at the table. Turk says that the ESF is not allowed to obligate more SDR's than it holds, but, if you add the SDR Certificates to the SDR Allocations, you get liabilities of 16,099 versus holdings of 10,603. Because I could not "get a handle on" the "Allocations", I have removed them from my calculations.
I agree with Turk that the SDR Certificates are likely part of a slight-of-hand, smoke-and-mirrors, flim-flam game being perpetrated by the elitist AG&Co for the benefit of their benefactors. But what in this table is the giveaway?
Still hidden behind the veil is the origin of the SDR Certificates and the reason that they were transferred to the Federal Reserve. Gold Certificates represent a claim against gold being held by the issuing agency, the United States Treasury. If SDR Certificates represent a claim against SDR's being held by the issuing agency, the ESF, it would most certainly mean that the ESF, between its SDR Allocations and its SDR Certificates, is allocating more SDR's than it has in its possession. How can this be?
I am further confused by Turk's article as to what he thinks the declining number of SDR Certificates means. First, he says: "Why are the SDR Certificates declining? The basic answer is quite simple. [Yeah, right!] The SDR Certificates MUST BE reduced if the ESF intends to use its SDR's for any purpose, such as market intervention or swaps. In other words, the SDR Certificates are a claim against the SDR's, so the SDR Certificate must be cancelled to remove any claims on the SDR before the SDR can be used by the ESF. But the amount of SDR's owned by the ESF hasn't changed except briefly in early 1999, so it seems that the SDR's are not being used for any purpose."
Later, Turk says: "First, note on the accompanying table the dates when the SDR Certificates began to decline rapidly. From 10,168 million in December 1995, the SDR Certificate account declined to 8,200 million by June 1999, or 19% over 3½ years. Now look at the decline beginning in the third quarter of 1999, which corresponds with the Washington Agreement signed in September of that year. In only 18 months the SDR Certificate account declined by 73%. Was there a panic to get gold into the market after the Washington Agreement to keep the gold price from rising? This evidence sure does support that conclusion."
If, as Turk says, this evidence supports the conclusion that the reduction in the SDR Certificate account's decline was the result of getting gold into the market to keep the gold price from rising, declining certificates coincide with getting gold into the market. Hmmm. Is it possible that declining certificates coincide with both getting gold into the market AND removing claims against SDR's? How would this work?
Going back to Turk's table. SDR holdings are obligated in the form of SDR Certificates and SDR Allocations. Yet, there seems to be no clear way to calculate this in any way that would not involve the ESF issuing more Certificates than it has SDR's—something that James Turk says would be illegal.
Then, for some reason that we have no way to fathom, the SDR Certificates are pledged to the Federal Reserve so that they become an asset for the Fed. If the Fed were to trade SDR Certificates to the Bundesbank (or any other CB), the number of Certificates that they carried on their books as an asset would decline—but the liability being held by the ESF would remain constant. Only if the Certificates were returned to the ESF who "took them out of circulation", would both numbers decline in tandem.
And what would cause such a thing?
If the Federal Reserve did trade SDR Certificates to another CB, and that CB, in exchange, sold gold into the market, their physical gold would be gone, but it would be replaced by SDR Certificates. If, then, the (NY) Federal Reserve shipped gold to the Bundesbank, and the Bundesbank returned the Certificates to the originator—the ESF—who in anticipation of the transfer provides gold to the NY Fed. Below is a table that narrows the variables and focuses on the varying Gold Certificate numbers in relation to the SDR Certificate numbers.
......SDR Certs.......Gold Certs....Gold Ounces...Oz. Change
1995….....10,168..….........11046...261,600,000
Dec-98….... 9200…...........11046...261,600,000
Mar-99….... 8200....-1968...11049...261,671,048.….71,048
Jun-99….... 8200..….........11046...261,600,000.....-71,048
Sep-99….... 7200....-1000...11047...261,623,683…...23,683
Dec-99….... 6200....-1000...11048...261,647,366....23,683
Mar-00… ....6200…...0.......11048...261,647,366
Jun-00…. ...4200....-2000...11046...261,600,000.....-47,366
Sep-00… ....3200....-1000...11046...261,600,000
Dec-00… ....2200....-1000...11046...261,600,000
1-Mar01……...................11046...261,600,000
Jun 01......………...........11044.....261,552,634.....-47,366
According to Turk, the number of SDR Certificates remained pretty much constant from 1995 until early 1999. That would mean that During Q1 of 1999 there was a decrease of 1968 SDR Certificates. There was a corresponding increase in the Gold Certificates being held by the Fed. Is it reasonable to assume a causal relationship here? How would that work? Okay. How's this.
The Fed trades 1968 SDR Certificates for approximately 71,049 ounces of gold. That would cause the Fed to own that additional amount—only it is not in its possession, just as the US Gold Reserves are not. It would be held by the Bundesbank.
When the Bundesbank, at the direction of the Fed sells this gold into the market, there is a corresponding decrease on the Fed balance sheet. Twice more in 1999 SDR Certificates decrease and the Gold Certificates increase.
Then in June, 2000, the gold mysteriously decreases again. Then, for some reason there are reductions totaling 4000 SDR certificates and no corresponding Gold Certificates coming in. Perhaps these were paying for previous gold transfers that had not been balanced out before? Then the most recent decrease of 47,366 ounces in Gold Certificates.
The decline in SDR Certificates seems to conform to Turk's second explanation: that the decline coincides with gold infusions into the market. Keep in mind, also, that other CBs are probably each contributing to the game. But. There is no doubt in my mind that SDR Certificates are being moved around as a means of camouflaging transfer of gold from CBs, including but not limited to the Fed, into the open market.
R Powell
(9/20/01; 18:05:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 62046)
Auspec
Thanks for reporting the upside opinions of Eric Hadik and Prechter, both technical analysts. My belief that silver is so grossly undervalued is based on fundamental information but it is nice to know that the chart readers agree.
I'm still amazed that the trend following fund managers haven't thrown gobs of money at the precious mining sector since it's about the only sector on the positive side year-to-date. Then, I would think, the light bulb would turn on and they'd think about physical and paper gold and silver.
Stock market talk of margin calls and fund redemptions should only add nervousness to an already dangerously downtrending cycle. Will there be a move to safe haven metals?
Rich
uponroof
(9/20/01; 18:03:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 62045)
R Powell / Beowulf
R Powell- YES! I remember that interview. It was a Friday night over a year ago. I will never forget it, in fact I posted the conversation on Gold Eagle that night. It went something like this: Question to Fleck: So, where do you see the markets going from here? Answer: (with dead face) I see it being halfed....at least. Needless to say the interviewer was aghast and asked for clarification, which was given immediately with the uptmost confidence. A real keeper. Too bad they'll never replay it. Thanks for the heads up on tonight's Tice interview.
Beowulf-Thanks for that info. I doubt they will make a memorial out of that site, although they probably should. Real estate is just too expensive. In fact watch for the imperative 'importance' of of getting this site developed ASAP to surface. It is just too valuable to the city. They can always spin the patriotic angle on rebuilding. Unless of course the Fed Gummint is gonna turn it into a National Park. Whatever....not sure I'd like to work in that place after dark.
Cavan Man
(9/20/01; 17:33:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 62044)
Money Managers
Being asked to buy gold for their clients. $800K sale today. This is a good sign. Don't be foolish.
Galearis
(9/20/01; 17:32:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 62043)
@ Canuck and Netking
Sir Canuck, I have to say I laughed out loud at your tale. Well said! And you must be such a superior player of our national game to be so sure of hitting such a SMALL target(s) -when you obviously have a club at hand. (BIG GRIN)
But like we Canadians everywhere (well, most of us anyway), we concern ourselves with justice and the truth - and I do hope that your ethnocentric neighbour is not reflecting the intellectual capacity of the majority at Nortel.
Sir Netking:
You may have noticed some quiet on my part in commenting on the repercussions of buried bullion under the WTC - or on any of this stuff lately. At this point I do not even want to hazard any opinions about what the system will handle this. Either way the fundamentals for silver would seem to favour more spot price movement than we are seeing - even based on a RUMOUR of a problem in supply.
I am at the point of just sitting back and watching the show. Supposedly (according to Rhody) above ground supplies will run out in March of 2002 - the new revised again projection. Again, I tire of guessing when this will be. It will be when it happens.
Who knows, if the world is even more destabilized in 2002 we may see the US government confiscate all stocks by declaring a national emergency. The silver and gold market are absurd.
Best regards to all,
G.
Netking
(9/20/01; 17:29:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 62042)
Pentagon said to eye nuclear attack against terrorists
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nn20010920a6.htm
This from the 'Japan Times' is interesting, the gloves as they say are off, the terrorists have only each other to blame as this possible course of action was never renounced - Netking
-----------------------------------------------------------
The Defense Department has recommended to President George W. Bush the use of tactical nuclear weapons as a military option to retaliate for last week's terrorist attacks in the United States, diplomatic sources said Tuesday.
It is unknown whether Bush has made any decision. Military analysts said the president is unlikely to opt for the use of nuclear weapons because doing so would generate a backlash from the international community and could even trigger revenge from the enemy involving weapons of mass destruction.
However, the Pentagon's suggestion shows the determination of U.S. officials to retaliate for the first massive terrorist attacks on the U.S. mainland, the analysts said.
The recommendation appears intended to deter terrorists, they said.
On ABC television's "This Week" program Sunday, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld refused to rule out the use of tactical nuclear weapons. Rumsfeld, who is notoriously tight-lipped with the press, avoided answering a question on whether their use could be ruled out. To a similar question, a Pentagon official also replied, "We will not discuss operational and intelligence matters."
The diplomatic sources said the Pentagon recommended using tactical nuclear weapons shortly after it became known that the terrorist attacks caused an unprecedented number of civilian casualties . . . "
Canuck
(9/20/01; 17:09:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 62041)
Ignorant
Just thought I'd stick my nose in for a moment.
Over the last week I have spent a great deal of time talking to my Lebonese work buddy, my Palestinian manager the Egyption store-owner at the corner and my Pakistani neighbour.
I cannot comment on these conversations because I do not understand the complexity of their discussions. One gentleman stated that the situation now reaches a climax in the triangular war, that is, terrorism, religion and oil.
He mentioned a wrong (aggressive) move made by any one of a dozen nations will spark a huge war. I am going to learn more about these people, there seems to be three sides to this story, 'Eastern', 'Western' and the truth.
I spoke to my neighbour on the other side, he's a senior manager at Nortel; the one with the yacht, the huge cottage and spends 2 months a year in Florida. His thoughts go as far as "nuke the bastards". I play hockey on Sunday mornings with the guy, he's going to get a puck in the nuts.
KarenSue
(9/20/01; 17:08:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 62040)
Interstate Re: your post # 62036
You did just the right thing by saying "it seems".
I do not speak for Leigh or BR549 but I will respond on behalf of HBM and myself:
Hardly a day goes by that I do not have many conversations with myself. Hardly a day goes by that I do not have many conversations with HBM. I can assure that I have never had a conversation with myself or with HBM via a post on an Internet forum. As for HBM, I will defend him concerning what "seems" to be an accusation, only because he cannot defend himself here on this forum. For, you see, he has been a very naughty boy more than once and has received his just desserts. He has had his posting code pulled by USAGOLD, not once but twice.
No offence taken on my part. Just thought to respond in hopes that you would give me the benefit of the doubt, for what "seemed" to occur did not occur in my case.
Only me
KS
Netking
(9/20/01; 17:04:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 62039)
Auspec / Galearis
Sir Auspec, I was just reading that very topic! Interesting stuff huh, I guess we know what's gonna happen, just a question of how it play's out & how the PPT withdraw & what new regulations & initiatives are introduced.
------------------------------------------------------------
Sir Galearis(62025)Good comments Sir from down the road (at "National-Lampoon II"<grin>). I'm just not sure what affect the Ag burried in the ground is actually having on current prices, the jury is still out on this for me I think . . . . . One school of thought says as it's 25% of the world above ground inventory and so "get ready to rumble" another school of thought says it's taken a week for the market to react to that news so forget that as a reason for the current rise. I'm sitting on some Dec '02 calls and am not too unhappy about the current firming of the price one bit. My broker thought I was crazy earlier this year when I put my order in, I think he felt sorry for me . . . however his latest E Mail news & rec's have near the top of the list: Gold & Silver (calls & physical)and share market puts . . . he seems to have done a 360! with risks attatched as the paper will burn . . . eventually
Market timing indicates silver is going to be "running on nitro" real soon, interesting times.
- Netking
auspec
(9/20/01; 16:38:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 62038)
Hey Silver Sops {Sots?}
Eric Hadik of insiidetrack and Robert Prechter of Elliott Wave are both bullish on silver as of today !
Hadik
Silver bottomed in perfect accord with year-long forecasts for a test of 413.5/SI and the subsequent start of a 12-18 month bull market. It has just attacked initial resistance (478.0/SIZ), already surging almost 15% from its recent low. Will there be additional opportunities to get on board?
Prechter
The first big one comes with tonight's update: Silver prices have just reached an important bottom as the result of the end of a "double three" wave decline from February 1998's 740 high. Peter's been waiting for this significant bottom for a while now, and now there's compelling evidence that it's in.
And tonight, Peter is going to make a specific recommendation to his subscribers on it, including entry and exit points along with a risk-limiting stop. END
R Powell
(9/20/01; 16:08:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 62037)
Interstate
There are often multiple conversations occuring here at the same time and over any length of time. Sometimes others join in and sometimes some of us seem to be talking to ourselves. People come and go at all hours of the day and night. Sometimes someone comes bursting through the front door, especially wizards, shouting with exceptional news which often means prices are on the move.
My mom used to have a statue of a frog sitting on a lilly pad with these words written under him, "Sometimes I sit and think, and sometimes I just sit".
Reminder:
For those who appreciate David Tice, he's a scheduled guest tonight on The Edge at 7:30 EST on the peoples' stock market television channel.
Rich
Interstate
(9/20/01; 15:35:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 62036)
Identities
I am really getting confused. It seems that Leigh, Karen Sue, BR549, and HBM are all talking to themselves. In other words, posting messages to themselves. Duplication of personages or a case of multiple ego? That's fine for me. Get your kicks anyway that you can so long as noone else is hurt.
auspec
(09/20/01; 15:13:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 62035)
Cafe Snippet
This is from the esteemed Azteca de Oro at Le Metropole:
"This is a wild guess, but the author believes probable that the current low Fed Funds rate has something to do with potential or actual implosion in the derivative markets. Let us remember that some derivative activity was controlled from the twin towers." END
Comment: Just a tad of STRESS in current system, eh?
Belgian
(09/20/01; 15:12:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 62034)
POO
My instant reaction on the fall of the POO : 30$ >>>25 1/2$
and the large build-up of iron plus the announcement that this terror-war is going to be a long term play, was ...THEY ARE GOING AFTER THE OIL !!
OPEC will not be allowed to indicate the value of the dollar with their oil-pricing. If this turns out to be the ultimate target/respons on terror...the confrontation will escalate for 100%. Than, the real reason behind the atrocities will become clear to all and it will divide the globe into camps. A horrible scenario.
So, let us watch if POO, is adjusting to unexpected (?)slowing demand, and if the pricing-power can or will be restored some months from here ?
What is profoundly, disturbing me personally, is that there is sooo much focus on economics, when 6.000 people, innocent people lost their lives ! ? What a cruel world.
Netking
(09/20/01; 15:09:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 62033)
Dropping bombs will rescue market - Forget silly appeals to investors' patriotism
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,2904103%255E643,00.html
IF President George W. Bush is serious about saving the US stock market, he and other senior officials should stop their silly appeals to investors' patriotism and start dropping bombs.
That is the crudest analysis of a remarkable session on Wall Street on Wednesday, which saw the leading stock indices threaten three-year lows before storming back in the final hour of trade.
The market had been in deep trouble all day, with the Dow Jones Industrial Average down 400-plus points by mid-afternoon and the S&P 500 index below the critical 1000-point level.
For the first time since Wall Street reopened on Monday in the aftermath of the terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, traders reported panic in the air.
Then, about 3pm, a big news story broke – Mr Bush was sending more than 100 warplanes to the Middle East region – and the market staged a spectacular comeback. . . .
. . . .Analysts' hopes that the losing streak would soon be snapped would probably come true if Mr Bush tested a couple of cruise missiles. Polls show that while Americans are uncertain about the stock market, they are certain that the US must go to war.
During the 1990-91 Gulf War, stocks tumbled when Iraq invaded Kuwait, threatening the global oil supply, but regained lost ground and then some when the US started bombing Baghdad.
While it is too early to predict a similar experience this time, it is clear that uncertainty over how the war on terrorism will take shape is unnerving investors.
It is also obvious that the investing public by and large ignored the exhortations of government officials and corporate leaders to buy shares in the name of patriotism. The likely reason? Investors are not that stupid. . . .
. . . . For a start, for every person who buys a share, someone sells a share. So, the "patriotic" investors would just be transferring their cash to the "unpatriotic" ones. There is also the fact that the free market – which was the terrorists' broadest target – exists to allow people to buy and sell shares. Those who choose to do the latter should not be made to feel guilty. It's all very well for Warren "the Oracle of Omaha" Buffett to tell people to buy shares in a declining market. He's worth $US30 billion ($60.85 billion).
The same can be said for Vice-President Dick Cheney and Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill, who both made multi-million-dollar fortunes in the private sector.
Ordinary Americans can be forgiven for not wanting to take risks with their money in such risky times. They can be forgiven for telling Mr Cheney to go stick his own thumb in the eye of the terrorists.
As one pundit summed up the present market, it's "like two men in a cave with a lion outside. Neither one wants to go out to see if the lion is hungry" Buffett, Cheney and O'Neill – and others such as mega-rich corporate legend Jack Welch – were urging the average Jane and Joe to check that big cat out.
Although extraordinary times allow the rules to be rewritten, the Bush administration should think twice before dispensing any more investment advice.
The sight of the Treasury Secretary offering stock market forecasts on CNN – just like any rent-a-quote analyst – was unusual to say the least.
"You will see these indexes go back up and we will see new records in the not-too-distant future," Mr O'Neill said.
Investors will hope he is right – and should remember his "patriotic" prediction if he is not.
AEL
(9/20/01; 14:38:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 62032)
"Secret" War
Art & Linda wrote:
> "Secret plans for 10-year war" is the headline on this article from the
> Times of London:
> http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2001320010-2001325231,00.html
> Very interesting, especially the part that implies any political
> opposition is support for terrorism. According to this, the "War on
> Terrorism" is expected to be a lot like the "War on Drugs,"
PRECISELY. Another vague, abstract, utterly-unwinnable,
ruinously-expensive "war". The only problem with this article is
that there is nothing "secret" about the "secret plans". From the
start of this whole crisis, everyone was speaking openly about
multi-year (or decade) "wars", "crusades", or whatever.
But "terrorism" has about as much to do with it, really, as
"drugs" have to do with the War on Drugs (i.e. not much). The
current crisis presents the perfect cover (perhaps contrived for
this purpose?) for the necessary permanent hyper-build-up of U.S.
military power in the region, in order to keep the cheap petrol
flowing. The endgame on that score is likely to begin in the next
few years; it is vital to be positioned in advance for the mad
scramble for the reserves that remain. (That's not to mention
minor side-benefits like being the perfect cover for the total
dismantling of what remains of the Bill of Rights.)
"Operation Noble Eagle" (below), indeed! Make that "Operation
Petrol Vulture"!
------------------------------------------------------------------
"This much is certain: no initiative put in place starting today
can have a substantial effect on the peak [oil] production year.
No Caspian Sea exploration, no drilling in the South China Sea, no
SUV replacements, no renewable energy projects can be brought on
at a sufficient rate to avoid a bidding war [and very likely a
*shooting* war -- A] for the remaining oil." -- Kenneth Deffeyes,
"Hubbert's Peak" (just published). More at:
http://www.sciam.com/2001/1001issue/1001reviews1.html
------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2001320010-2001325231,00.html
THURSDAY SEPTEMBER 20 2001
Secret Plans for 10-Year War
BY MICHAEL EVANS, DEFENCE EDITOR
Generals rule out 'D-Day invasion'
AMERICA and Britain are producing secret plans to launch a
ten-year "war on terrorism" -- Operation Noble Eagle --
involving a completely new military and diplomatic strategy to
eliminate terrorist networks and cells around the world.
Despite the mass build-up of American forces in the Gulf and the
Indian Ocean, there will be no "D-Day invasion" of Afghanistan
and no repeat of the US-led Operation Desert Storm against Iraq in
1991, defence sources say.
The notion that a US-led multinational coalition would attack
Afghanistan from all sides for harbouring Osama bin Laden, the
wealthy Saudi dissident leader and prime suspect for the terrorist
outrages in New York and Washington, has been rejected in
Washington and London. The sources also say that the planned
campaign is not being focused on just "bringing bin Laden to
justice".
The build-up of firepower by the Americans in the region, notably
the two aircraft carrier battle groups that are to be joined by a
third carrier, USS Theodore Roosevelt, is seen as a major display
of available military capability. While it is important for these
assets to be in the right place in case of a political decision to
launch a strike, there are no plans for a "short-term fix".
The dramatically different anti-terrorism campaign is being
planned to meet what is now regarded as the most dangerous threat
to global security, known as asymmetric warfare. "We're expecting
it to last from five to ten years," one source said.
New ideas are needed to counter small groups armed with the
minimum of weaponry, whether conventional or non-conventional.
Such groups have the capability to attack a nation as powerful as
the United States, which is equipped with the full range of modern
weapons and professional Armed Forces.
Old doctrines for fighting wars, based on lining up tanks and
artillery and layers of troops, are being thrown out and replaced
by a more subtle and wide-ranging doctrine which seeks to defeat
the enemy at its own game. "The aim is not to go for the enemy's
strengths, but its weaknesses," one source said.
American and British planners are working on the basis that
military strikes will take place only as part of a broader global
counter-terrorist operation, embracing every other type of
international action -- diplomatic, economic and political.
Most of the focus of the ten-year campaign plan, the sources say,
is on using military action as a potent back-up to all the other
strands of Operation Noble Eagle.
However, President Bush, conscious of the demand for "revenge"
from the American public, might sanction shorter-term military
operation by special forces, or airstrikes, but only if there is
sufficient intelligence to guarantee a sucessful outcome. "There's
no point in firing a lot of missiles at bin Laden if they miss
their target, or launching Tomahawks at bin Laden training camps
if they are empty," one source said.
Donald Rumsfeld, the American Defence Secretary, also gave the
strongest hint yesterday of what Operation Noble Eagle is all
about. "I think what you will see evolve over the next six, eight,
ten, 12 months, probably over a period of years, is a coalition to
help battle terrorists," he told CNN.
He added: "This is a very new type of conflict or battle or
campaign or war or effort, for the United States. We're moving in
a measured manner. As we gather information, we're preparing
appropriate courses of action, and they run across the political
and economic and financial, military, intelligence spectrum."
British officials said the whole focus of the long-term American
approach was being driven by Richard Cheney, the American
Vice-President, and General Colin Powell, the Secretary of State.
The combination of the two highly experienced men was guaranteeing
a well-coordinated strategy. "Everyone now knows it's going to be
a long haul, not a spectacular single strike," one official said.
The war on terrorism could be likened, they said, to the war on
drugs or poverty, and the best way to undermine and eventually
dismantle the terrorist structures around the world was to use the
method of "hearts and minds" -- encouraging foreign governments and
people to join in the "war" so that terrorists would be isolated
and identified.
Some of the most dramatic achievements, the sources say, might
come, not from military action, but from political pressure on
foreign governments to turn their backs on terrorism and to hand
over the organisers of terrorist networks.
They point to the campaign against Yugoslavia in 1999. Although
the airstrikes fitted more closely to the "old doctrine concept"
of using massed firepower to target the enemy, which brought
criticism from many parts of the world, Nato was also seen to be
working as a humanitarian agency with its operation in Albania
helping to build shelters for the thousands of refugees pouring
out of Kosovo.
The eventual outcome, the political downfall of Slobodan Milosevic
and the decision by the new Government to hand him over to the war
crimes tribunal in The Hague, is seen as a classic example of how
military action can serve two purposes, defeating the enemy and
effecting political change.
In the Gulf War, the American-led coalition achieved one
objective, driving the Iraqis out of Kuwait, but not the other,
the overthrow of President Saddam Hussein by his own people.
Already, the sources say, just over a week after the terrorist
attacks in America, there have been positive developments: the
Israeli and Palestinian leaders have agreed a new ceasefire and
1,000 clerics have been forced to gather in Kabul, the capital of
Afghanistan, to discuss the fate of bin Laden.
Yesterday it was also announced that President Putin is to visit
Nato headquarters in Brussels on October 3 and will meet Lord
Robertson of Port Ellen, the Secretary- General, another positive
sign that the Russian leader supports the campaign against
terrorism.
Russia and Nato put out a joint statement last week condemning the
terrorist attacks and vowing that they would not go unpunished.
Other coalitions against terrorism are also being rapidly formed
and several countries, notably Pakistan yesterday, have offered
bases for American military action.
However, sources in Washington say there are no plans to deploy
huge numbers of US troops to Pakistan, which would only inflame
Islamic fundamentalists opposed to the decision by President
Musharraf to grant US access to two air bases in the country.
Copyright 2001 Times Newspapers Ltd. This service is provided on
Times Newspapers' standard terms and conditions. To inquire about
a licence to reproduce material from The Times, visit the
Syndication website.
Beowulf
(9/20/01; 14:21:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 62031)
Uponroof regarding your message #62011
I talked to a structural engineer at work about the WTC and the collapse. If it's as bad as that article states then it may be upwards of 4 months to 1 year or longer before they can clear all the rubble and get access to the COMEX gold and silver. The cost to just clear the rubble and shore up the surrounding foundations will be HUGE. He suggested that it would just be cheaper to fill the whole thing in with cement and make it a monument to the dead.
-Beowulf
R Powell
(9/20/01; 14:15:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 62030)
CNBC
Yes, Mr. Scott-Ram did state that the gold market is too big to possibly be manipulated but I was impressed that Ted David asked, in no uncertain terms, if the gold market is being manipulated. When WGC spokesman Scott-Ram said central banks were not manipulating, Ted David immediately fired back that maybe others were involved. Again denied.
Now why do you suppose Mr. Ted David would ask such questions? Go GATA! Mr. Scott-Ram's enthusiasm and comments on gold certainly did nothing to help those he represents unless he represents contained POG interests.
I've also heard the words margin call and fund redemptions today. Not only grim but scary.
CNBC also announced that fund manager David Tice will be one of tonight's guests on their 7:30 EST program, The Edge. I hope Ted David asks Tice how his fund is doing this year. Perhaps someone will remember Freckenstein's long-ago appearance on The Edge with Ted David and say, hey, he was exactly correct, let's ask him back!
Rich
Leigh
(9/20/01; 14:06:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 62029)
Sierra Madre
Sierra, I tried to click onto the link you provided, and it said "access denied." Would it be possible for you to post at least part of the article?
KarenSue
(9/20/01; 14:02:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 62028)
BR549 Re: your post # 62023
I am not sure but I think there are separate rules for insider trading. Also if those rules are separate and distinct, the question arises: - Were the rules affecting insider trading and employee incentive shares and derivatives of those shares also suspended?
I would not put anything past the "evil doers". There has been much care to avoid metion the suspension of insider trading rules if, in fact, they have been suspended.
Only me
KS
cwa
(9/20/01; 13:58:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 62027)
World Gold Council
Mr. Scott-Ram from the WGC just on CNBC.
Without any prompting he blurts out that "there is no market manipulation from the central banks whatsoever".
The pundit had to say that his question wasn't about anything like that.
What a farce.
GATA is really on to something big I believe.
cwa
BR549
(9/20/01; 13:56:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 62026)
CNBC on Gold
World Gold Council representative says no manipulation of Gold prices by Central Banks or anyone. So now we know.
Where is Reg Howe or Midas when these questions are asked by CNBC?
Galearis
(9/20/01; 13:54:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 62025)
@Netking: and sometimes a thousand (or so) words make a nice picture!
http://www.kitcomm.com/cgi-bin/comments/gold/display_short.cgi#start
On our favourite topics, a few interesting posts from the other forum. Forgive, please, the bandwidth squander.FWIW catagory:
snip*****
Date: Thu Sep 20 2001 10:26
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#110287:
-
The great scramble is about to begin!
Japan has reached the end. They must do their best to help the dollar rise against the yen. To this end they will maintain all US bonds and use all new capital to buy gold and oil!
Any country without gold will be found in a disadvantaged state! For those who say gold is not an asset and is dead! I offer you a fact: "Today, as you read this more gold is traded and purchased than at any time in the history of the world." This ancient, world class money from the distant past is now to be the most fought over asset of the future. In war and life, gold will be your "CHECKMATE"!
Please remember, my friends, "When a thousand hungry lions fight over one scrap of food, small dogs should hide with whats in their belly".
Date: Thu Sep 20 2001 10:52
ANOTHER () ID#110287:
Mr. Homestk Kid,
No, I did not post about $100 Silver.
The paper currencies, so long admired and accepted are now in a war of self destruction. They will consume each other in an end battle of "I'm the last man standing but have lost all use as a unit of value". Who knows what the 'dollar' will be worth ? Silver could be worth 'zero dollar' but 'many euro'.
Date: Thu Sep 20 2001 13:47
ted butler (@What a difference a week makes.....) ID#317184:
Copyright © 2000 ted butler All rights reserved
I have to laugh at the silver naysayers. So many words, such little substance. Here's what the last week told us. Silver was among the very few assets that held value. Silver was among the very few assets that allowed folks to sleep soundly. 25% of all the documented, verified silver bullion inventory in the entire world was suddenly and sickeningly made unavailable for months. I will be surprised if this, alone, doesn't bring about backwardation and a squeeze, at least through December. And that's forgetting the deficit, which continues to march on, in spite of industrial consumption fall-offs, courtesy of soon to be whacked base metal production. I wonder if the Defense Department is laughing, like some here, about silver needs in war time? They don't crack jokes about it in their letters to me.
We also learned that silver can move pretty big ( we ain't seen anywhere near real big yet ) , out of the blue. In fact, in eight trading hours, we exceeded prices for the previous eight months. Which proves harping about where we've been, doesn't tell us where we're going. We learned just how fragile our system is, and how dependent financially, we all are on each other. We also re-learned that real silver is noone else's liability. Now, and going forward. I mentioned in a recent interview, just before the event, that I thought silver was better than any other investment I could think of. A couple of weeks later, I still think so. After all, silver is still dirt cheap, compared to everything else.
Late notes - Silver futures open interest has been down everyday, which I think is bullish. Call option open interest jumped huge, as of yesterday, and option volume was big again today. That's important, because if we start to run, the call option shorts will panic and hit the buy button - they have no other choice. Silver call option open interest of 58,500 just about equals futures open interest of just under 62,000, and the next big expiration is over 7 weeks away ( Dec ) . That's a long time to contain a market with increased physical demand. It's just my hunch ( maybe uptick can confirm ) that there has been a weakening in the profile of the typical option seller, due to formerly big institutional market makers exiting the business over the past few years. I'm not saying it's gonna happen, but these guys could get steam-rolled pretty easy. They have not been fully stress tested. Just what we needed - ANOTHER source of bullish fuel.
uponroof
(9/20/01; 13:54:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 62024)
GATA/CBSMarketwatch.......
http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?guid=%7BC64F28B3%2D22EC%2D4D46%2D9B19%2D411AF214E806%7D&siteid=mktw
Talking about collusion and gold price fixing as if it's nothing new at CBSMarketwatch. It is becomming so obvious even those who don't follow gold are picking up on it. GOLD AT 290 UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES IS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS!
May I suggest to you a possible scenario:
We will soon get a statement from the gummint that they have just now decided to control the POG for the good of the country. They will use this crisis, as suspected, to justify this obvious manipulation. They will deny intervention occurred before the crisis. With public support on their side there will be no cry for the truth.
Given O'Neill's UNBELIEVABLE 'socializing' of the airline and insurance companies losses, I expect JPMChase is next. We are going to have a purging of both crisis and pre crisis debt. A very convenient tragedy for our corrupt officials who ride herd on this economy.
BR549
(9/20/01; 13:52:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 62023)
Buy backs
KarenSue (msg#: 62014)---
How about this stock buy back.....
I am a corporate officer who holds stock at market value of $15/share. Rules for corporate buy back are suspended and I sell my shares to my company for $25/share. Corporate cash down, corporate officers assets up.
BR549
Netking
(9/20/01; 13:50:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 62022)
Pasminco survives until June 2002 . . . . just.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,2902837%255E462,00.html
Don't write off Pasminco just yet! . . . The bankers (all 36 of them) appear to have found a scheme of arrangement for Pasminco's survival. With the POS projections upward for the next year or so long term survival prospects may continue to firm. - Netking.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Adminstrators have secured a $300 million line of credit to keep Pasminco Ltd trading after banks lost faith in the world's largest integrated zinc producer.
The Melbourne-based miner last night joined the long list of Australian corporate collapses and was put into voluntary administration when it failed to get bankers' support for a six-month extension of its debts.
But unlike the recent collapse of Ansett Australia, administrators have ensured the medium-term operation of Pasminco's mines and smelters courtesy of the $300 million credit facility.
The funds should keep Pasminco's operations running until at least mid 2002. With that safeguard, the administrators have ruled out a fire sale of Pasminco's assets including its flagship Century mine in Queensland.
Burdened by debts of $2.9 billion, Pasminco needed the support of its 36 financiers to ensure its short-term funding and to progress restructuring plans which would see it exit mining to concentrate on smelting. . . . "
Netking
(9/20/01; 13:15:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 62021)
Galearis
Sir Galearis(62009)
Great graphs from your link, a picture DOES say a thousand words yes.
Kaplan's quote appears to have been partly correct in so far as spot has eased a little, however he looks at things from only the paper demand & supply point of view it seems. We are in the midst of a continuing dislocation between the paper & physical markets. We need to get a clear picture to also look at the physical supply characteristics & the liability of the leased & short sold positions.
- Netking
Sierra Madre
(9/20/01; 13:10:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 62020)
The Right Way to Use Silver in Coinage (Part Two)
http://www.plata.com.mx/plata/english.htm
More silver rumblings in Mexico.
Now they are taking the cue from Russia (see Rachel Douglas' report at lemetropolecafe.com)
This could get interesting.
Sierra
Sierra Madre
(9/20/01; 12:48:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 62019)
4000 Israeli Employees in WTC Absent the Day of the Attack
http://www.manartv.com
4000 Israeli Employees in WTC Absent the Day of the Attack
Manar TV - Sept 17, 2001
http://www.manartv.com/
With the announcement of the attacks at the World Trade Center in New York, the international media, particularly the Israeli one, hurried to take advantage of the incident and started mourning 4000 Israelis who work at the two towers. Then suddenly, no one ever mentioned anything about those Israelis and later it became clear that they remarkably did not show up in their jobs the day the incident took place. No one talked about any Israeli being killed or wounded in the attacks. Arab diplomatic sources revealed to the Jordanian al-Watan newspaper that those Israelis remained absent that day based on hints from the Israeli General Security Apparatus, the Shabak, the fact which evoked unannounced suspicions on American officials who wanted to know how the Israeli government learned about the incident before it occurred, and the reasons why it refrained from informing the U.S authorities of the information it had. Suspicions had increased further after Israeli newspaper Yadiot Ahranot revealed that the Shabak prevented Israeli premier Ariel Sharon from traveling to New York and particularly to the citys eastern coast to participate in a festival organized by the Zionist organizations in support of the "Israel". Aharon Bernie, the commentator at the newspaper, brought up the issue and came up with a negative conclusion, saying no answer. He then asked about the clue behind the Shabaks position in preventing Sharons participation, and again without giving an answer. Bernie added that Sharon, who was delighted for having his speech on top of the festival agenda, asked the head of the organization to mediate and convince the Shabak to change its position, but his attempts were in vein. The next day after Sharons secretary officially announced that Sharon would not participate the incident took place. For its part, the Israeli Haaretz newspaper revealed that the FBI arrested five Israelis four hours after the attack on the Twin Towers while filming the smoking skyline from the roof of their companys building. The FBI had arrested the five for puzzling behavior. They are said to have been caught videotaping the disaster in what was interpreted as cries of joy and mockery.
site steward
(9/20/01; 12:34:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 62018)
HEADLINE: Insurers 'Quietly' Seek Help From Congress
http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/010920/business_attack_congress_insurance_dc_1.html
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - In sharp contrast to the airline industry's high-profile campaign for a multibillion-dollar bailout, insurance companies are quietly pressing Congress for tax relief in the aftermath of last week's devastating hijack attacks. ... One Democratic aide said industry officials were keeping a low profile because they did not want to appear to be using the current crisis to their "legislative advantage."
-----
Does publicity this mean we have come out of the closet as socialists? Like the banking system has amply shown over the years, we, as a people and its representative government, are notorious for privatizing gains but socializing losses.
Here's a tip:
Whenever the government actively meddles with the economic reins of market discipline, you will want to change horses and seek refuge in the safety of independent assets such as gold.
R.
Old Yeller
(9/20/01; 11:56:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 62017)
The war on capital
http://www.mises.org/fullstory.asp?control=782&FS=A%2BWar%2Bon%2BCapital
Great commentary from Sean Corrigan,a strident critic of the managed outcome crowd.
This is a monetary system reaching the end of it's timeline;thank you FOA. The methods our leaders are now employing to divert the the focus from the real cancerous aspect of our society is appalling.We're embarking on a very unsettling journey,best to bring along some of the old standby;gold.
Debase the currency,because circumstance dictates difficult solutions for difficult times.
Bunk!
Belgian
(9/20/01; 10:38:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 62016)
@ Leigh
No, Leigh, I don't think you can punish Arabs with low goldprices. On the contrary, I should rather say, the more they can get, the more they like it. They do think and feel different about it than we do.
No, it is much, much simplier than that. Under normal circumstances (no manipulation), the gold-movers would seize this opportunity (war + uncertainty) to move POG, even if it was not justified on a demand/supply basis.
What is happening now is not even management or manipulation, but rightout "commands" and oligarchic(oligopolistic) discipline. We have summed up how many reasons there are why the financial brotherhood should act as one . This very special "alliance" will capsize under the increasing weight of its own conspiracy. Yes, not afraid anymore to use the word "conspiracy".
Gandalf the White
(9/20/01; 09:50:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 62015)
Message to the PPT from the Hobbits !
Dear PPT
IF you can not hold the rebound actions at the market opening the day AFTER that of TAPE PAINTING at the END of a day's session, DON'T waste your powder!!!
Even the SHEEPLE can figure out that RUSE.
<;-)
KarenSue
(9/20/01; 08:38:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 62014)
Black Blade Re: post # 61997
You say:
"…CNBC Talking Head and wife of bankrupt "Individual Investor" editor J. Steinberg) says that corporations came into the markets and bought back shares in the last hour of trading - otherwise the DOW would have cratered to the tune of 425 pts…"
_____________________________________
KS's tiny brian seeks understanding:
I am a little bookkeeper in a very small family business.I am trying desparately to see through the smoke. The fog has not lifted but it helps to put things in a personal perspective.
I can imagine making a couple of debits and credits for my company to record our stock buy-back transactions.
Let me see:
$2 billion deposit - Debit cash/credit short-term debt
$2 billion check – Debit treasury stock/credit cash
Now that was easy, wasn't it?
Opps, hold on a minute, my boss just stepped in.
I'm back now. Lets see now. My boss told me to set up a monthly standard entry for 90 days until this short-term paper must be converted to long-term paper.
Now, let me see:
Monthly entry for ninety days - $2 Billion @ 6% prime (wow what a great rate):
Debit Interest Expense ($10,000,000) / Credit Accrued interest payable ($10,000,000)
Boy oh boy, this bookkeeping is getting easier and easier.
Only me
KS
Leigh
(9/20/01; 08:37:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 62013)
Belgian
Could it be possible that this is an Arab v. Western thing? Like, we're not going let the POG move because Arabs have vast gold holdings and we're not going to let them profit?
Belgian
(9/20/01; 08:24:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 62012)
Conclusions
I've made some quiet conclusions for myself, with narrowing gaps for possible mistaken.
None of the gold-community-members are allowed (ordered) to make any disturbing move on POG, or risking, sanctions to be excluded from the financial brotherhood of speculation/gambling !!!!
It is just impossible that against the massive build-up of retaliations/justice for the tragedy and the increasing un-certainty, that POG isn't able to move ! Impossible it is !
All traditionnal goldmovers plus outsiders must have been warned, seriously ! Basta.
uponroof
(9/20/01; 08:15:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 62011)
The ScotiaMocotta Depository (COMEX) buried under the WTC
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/18/science/physical/18UNDE.html
Well the engineers are putting together the pieces in evaluating the lower level and foundation damage. A very interesting look at the construction and hazzards ahead.
September 18, 2001
THE FOUNDATION
Engineers Tackle Havoc Beneath Trade Center
By DENNIS OVERBYE
On Friday afternoon in Midtown Manhattan, George J. Tamaro, professional engineer, was holding court among conference tables stacked with blueprints dense with threadlike lines. He was trying to resurrect what had suddenly become a ghost world.
As a staff engineer for the Port Authority in 1967, Mr. Tamaro helped build the World Trade Center's basement, a 16-acre, 70-foot- deep hole in the ground that until last Tuesday housed seven levels of shopping, parking and, at the very bottom, the PATH train station. Now he and others are concerned that debris from the collapse of the twin towers might be the only thing supporting the walls of that giant hole against the pressure of muck and water and dirt on the outside.
Attempts to dig out the basement without proper precautions, they fear, could cause the walls to shift or rupture, leading to flooding and the destabilization of nearby buildings.
Mr. Tamaro said he had urged Fire Department officials not to proceed with removing wreckage from the basement until engineers had figured out how to do it safely. "The walls require lateral support," he said. "You've got the Hudson River across the street."
At the behest of the city's Department of Design and Construction, Mr. Tamaro, an expert on foundations who is now a partner at Mueser Rutledge Consulting Engineers, has turned his office into a "below-grade command center" to provide rescue workers and engineers with accurate information on the locations of the myriad walls, passages, floors, and water, sewer, electrical, telephone, gas, subway and train lines under the ruined plaza.
He and his colleagues are working closely, he said, with the Fire Department, the Port Authority and the Transit Authority, as well as with engineers from the Thornton-Tomasetti Group, who are advising the city on the condition of structures affected by the catastrophe.
Mr. Tamaro was involved in building the foundations of all the buildings at the trade center and the World Financial Center, across the street. "I'm carrying around a mental picture, but there's no piece of paper that has the whole project," he said. "That's what we're putting together."
He added, "It's a complicated site."
Mr. Tamaro said it would be some time before anybody could get a complete assessment of just how bad conditions were underground. Two emergency hatches on West Street that go down to the PATH tubes, which loop through the site, are covered with rubble and possibly obliterated. But there are hints of the havoc the engineers expect to find.
Water, probably from fire hoses, rain and broken water pipes, is flowing through the PATH tubes to New Jersey. There are 6 or 7 inches of water in the Exchange Place station in Jersey City, which is just across the river and 20 feet lower than the trade center station, said Daniel Hahn, a former Port Authority engineer who works at Mueser Rutledge. He said the Port Authority was planning to cork the tunnels at Exchange Place with a pair of giant concrete plugs.
The plugs are necessary, Mr. Tamaro said, because if the trade center basement were to flood, water could wind through the PATH tubes back across the river to 34th Street and then go into the subway. "That's not going to happen," he said flatly.
Parts of two New York City subway lines, the 1 and the 9, have collapsed from the north end of the complex — where columns and beams from 7 World Trade Center have punctured the street and entered the subway — to Liberty Street at the south end, according to David Cacoilo, a Mueser Rutledge engineer who explored the tunnels on Sunday. He added that the Cortland Street station of the N and R lines, a block east on Church Street, was in good shape, and trains could be running through it (although not stopping) relatively soon. As if to emphasize the haphazard nature of the catastrophe, Mr. Cacoilo and his colleagues were able to enter the concourse of 5 World Trade Center and found that the floor and part of the superstructure on its northeast corner had not yet collapsed.
Yesterday Mr. Tamaro said engineers were now planning to seal off the 1 and 9 line with a bulkhead at the south end of the trade center and sandbags to the north to contain water and any debris generated by the recovery and demolition efforts. They are also considering various strategies to shore up the streets over the subway tunnels so they can safely support the heavy equipment needed for the demolition of the trade center buildings.
Water is an old problem for the trade center. The Hudson River used to flow where it was built.
When Europeans first laid eyes on what would be New York, the eastern shore of the Hudson River ran along what is now Greenwich Street, a block east of where the trade center towers would rise. It was here that the Dutch explorer Adriaen Block sank his ship, Tijger, in 1613, after it had burned. Part of that ship was found during digging for the IRT subway line in 1916, and Mr. Tamaro said engineers had hoped to find the rest of it during the excavation for the trade center towers.
What they dug up instead, he said, was garbage, animal carcasses, leather shoes, bottles, cannonballs, oyster shells, timber and other debris that had been dumped on the shore and used to extend the shoreline west over 300 years, to the other side of what is now West Street. Below that was river bottom, and below that was glacial till — gravel scooped up and left by the glaciers that once covered New York — and hardpan clay. About 75 feet below the ground was mica schist, the bedrock that defines all Manhattan geology and high-rise real estate.
According to Dr. Christopher J. Schuberth, a professor at Armstrong Atlantic State University is in Savannah, Georgia, who is the author of a book on New York geology, mica schist is a hard, unyielding rock, 700 million or 800 million years old, left over from an ancient mountain range. The glaciers "tore the daylights out of the rock," scooping it out in some spots and dumping gravel in others, he said. The schist is closest to the surface in Midtown and at the southern end of the island, making it easier to build skyscrapers there, and deeper in other places, like Greenwich Village.
The present concern over the state of the basement arises from the way Port Authority engineers got down to that bedrock for the foundations of the two 110-story towers, the Marriott Hotel and 6 World Trade Center. To hold the river muck at bay and prevent collapses of the unstable ground during excavation, the engineers first dug a 3-foot-wide trench 70 feet deep — all the way down to bedrock around the entire 16-acre construction site. As each 22-foot- long section was being dug, it was filled with slurry, a mixture of clay and liquid that can withstand the pressure of soil trying to close the trench. Then a cage of reinforced steel was dropped into the slurry and concrete pumped into the trench from the bottom, pushing the slurry out the top, where it was captured and used in the next section.
It took a year, from March 1967 to March 1968, to complete what Mr. Tamaro calls the bathtub, a waterproof wall more than 3,000 feet long encircling the oblong excavation site.
To support this wall while the basement was being dug, bundles of long steel rods known as tiebacks were drilled at a downward angle through the wall and anchored in the surrounding bedrock. As the bathtub deepened, tiebacks sprouted from its walls like wild carrot tops, pre stretched so they would exert an outward pull on the wall.
The excavation proceeded around and even under two PATH train tunnels that crossed the bathtub on the way to a station on Church Street. "You could see the tubes hanging in the air," said Thomas J. Glennon, a plumbing inspector at the site. That station was subsequently demolished to become part of the site for 4 and 5 World Trade Center, and the tracks were rerouted to a new terminal in the bottom of the basement. The excavated dirt, about 1.2 million cubic yards, was dumped in the river across the street to create land for part of Battery Park City.
Once the basement structure was done, Mr. Tamaro said, the tiebacks were cut and their openings welded over with steel plate, partly because the basement floors were there to support the walls, partly to avoid having a permanent part of the structure encroach on other people's property, and partly because they serve as conduits for river water. "Each one leaks water. They leak forever, and it smells like hell," Mr. Tamaro said.
But without the floors in place to provide lateral support, there is a risk that the bathtub's walls could collapse inward if the wreckage inside it is not removed carefully. "You can't just go digging next to those walls," Mr. Tamaro warned. He said new anchors might have to be installed as the debris was excavated. "We have to stage our way down," he said, excavating a level, putting in a row of anchors and then digging some more, not unlike the process they went through 33 years ago to excavate the bathtub in the first place.
It will be harder this time around, he said. The drilling machine for the anchors, for example, will have to do its work hanging down over the lip of the hole rather than crawling along on solid footing on the bottom of the excavation. Mr. Tamaro thinks it may be possible to dig deeper in the center of the basement than along the wall, as long as there is sufficient debris piled up along the wall. But how much deeper will depend on the nature of the debris.
He declined to make a precise estimate of how long this process might take, except to say that it could be months, depending on how much of the original structure is still intact.
The condition of the bathtub wall is also unknown, according to Mr. Tamaro. Despite some reports that rescue workers have reported seeing leaks on the walls, he thinks there is unlikely to be much water in the basement; if there were, he says, much more water would be rushing over to New Jersey.
Martha Huguet, a spokeswoman at Mueser Rutledge, said the firm had not received any reports of leaks. Nor has the Port Authority, according to a press spokesman there. Dr. Jeremy Isenberg of Weidlinger Associates, an engineering company that worked on the trade center complex, said a leak would not necessarily trigger a catastrophic flood, but would create a problem of slow erosion that would complicate the cleanup and excavation.
. The bathtub wall is sturdy, Mr. Tamaro said. A bomb blast in 1993 took out two of the floors but the wall still held. The wall has good deal of flexibility, he said, like a diaphragm.
The truth is, though, "we have no sense of the condition of the wall around the perimeter," Mr. Tamaro said.
escapethematrix
(9/20/01; 08:06:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 62010)
PLAINTIFF'S MOTION FOR LEAVE TO FILE SECOND AFFIDAVIT
http://www.goldensextant.com/P%27sSecondAffidavit.html#anchor27286
Reg Howe has filed a new motion based on more recently uncovered info...A select snippet wouldn't do this justice...Check it out.
Galearis
(9/20/01; 07:51:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 62009)
@ Netking and others in light of the posted url
http://www.sharelynx.net/Papers/SilverStocks.htm
Did anyone else think this statement by Kaplan a curious one?:
snip***
My experience over 25+ years tells me that the funds were covering their short positions in a market where the professionals were certainly not anxious to go short the metal, almost at any price, due to the current conditions of possible war. I have been very bullish silver for a very long time, as my readers know, but these prices seem a bit silly.
****
G.
Galearis
(9/20/01; 07:37:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 62008)
a must see page of graphs on silver...
http://www.sharelynx.net/Papers/SilverStocks.htm
This is a repost from late (for me) last night. I note our USAGOLD silverbugs stopped posting after this went on. In bed or in shock...whatever...; here is the link again.
Enjoy,
G.
Black Blade
(9/20/01; 07:02:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 62007)
The Ripple Effect - Already Weak Economy Staggering From Terrorist Attacks; Worst May Be Yet to Come
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/business/DailyNews/WTC_economy010919.html
Snippit:
Banks, airlines, plane makers, insurance companies, entertainment companies, travel and leisure firms, online travel agencies… the list is dismally long of individual companies and entire industries that are already being affected by an abrupt drop in consumer and business spending - a decline that unexpectedly came in an already shaky economy.
What it all means, say economists, is that the U.S. economy is going to experience some extremely tough times in the months ahead, despite lower interest rates, tax rebates, talk of further tax cuts and now what financial markets are dubbing a "war premium" as efforts to find the culprits behind last week's unspeakable acts goes forward.
"Consumers are like deer in the headlights. They're just paused and waiting to see what happens next," said Sherry Cooper, chief economist with Harris Bank / Bank of Montreal. Cooper downgraded her firm's forecast after last week's attacks to reflect what she expects will be a much longer time-frame for recovery.
Black Blade: DITTO! Very Grim Indeed!
Black Blade
(9/20/01; 06:54:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 62006)
Stocks' value gauges bound to fall As corporate profits drop, so must U.S. shares
http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?guid=%7BEB95835C%2DAB14%2D47FC%2DB851%2D62FDE40AF53C%7D&siteid=mktw
Snippit:
NEW YORK (CBS.MW) - The U.S. stock market's price-earnings multiple, even against the red ink of cascading share prices, remains at historically high levels, data show.
Black Blade: Tom Calandra state's the case I have harped on for some time. Good article.
Black Blade
(9/20/01; 06:50:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 62005)
401(k) investors flee stock funds
http://www.usatoday.com/money/mlead.htm
Snippit:
Shaken 401(k) participants fled stock funds in unusually high numbers Monday, the first day of trading after last week's terrorist attacks.
Black Blade: No Kidding! Soon some to find their way to Gold and Silver? MK did say he has more activity of inqueries into Gold IRA's.
Belgian
(9/20/01; 06:44:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 62004)
Rob Edwards - * GOLD * -analyst - HSBC ?????
Quote : ....for the first time in living memory, someone from off the street went into a branch of HSBC in UK and ordered 100.000 Pounds worth of gold in his personal name.
With or without the full context of the intervieuw...this gold-analyst is not even worth some salt on his patatoes.
Don't have the courage to comment extensively on this blahblahblah.
But in tiny little belgianland, a popular broker/bank has officially and explicitely, recommended the accumulation of physical gold !
And what is of some (little) more importance...they don't make a nickel on these sales and are strongly UK-connected !
Indeed a first sign of (trivial-?) honesty, towards their share-buying clients.
Black Blade
(9/20/01; 06:44:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 62003)
(No Subject)
http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/010920/business_economy_housing_dc_1.html
Housing Starts Fall in August
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. housing starts fell sharply in August, the government said on Thursday, as housing began to reflect the weakness of the overall economy.
Black Blade: This over-hyped statistic will continue to accelerate to the downside. Then it won't be mentioned until it turns positive. Also, jobless claims fall by 49,000. Just wait until those numbers are revised and this week's numbers hit the airwaves. It will be sheer panic. In a word - "GRIM"
RE: Boxman, thanks. Sounds like you are fortunate so far. This data does not bode well. I used to live near Stone Container in Missoula, MT. I know that they survived some difficult times. My best to you!
Boxman
(9/20/01; 06:34:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 62002)
Box Shipments
Black Blade, industry publications from a few weeks ago, stated that shipments have been the lowest in years. Our plant is holding up well, but our sister plants (65 of them) appear to be struggling. Our stock price has held up reasonably well(all things considered),but I believe our company is viewed as a lumber company, and when the housing bubble pops, so may our stock.
So far, no notice of the measures that Cavan Mans' company has announced, but that hammer may drop soon.
Off to work, trying to get some new business, to offset the upcoming drop in volume from existing customers. Anyone that did not start this process some time ago will be behind a very large 8 ball.
CoBra(too)
(9/20/01; 06:26:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 62001)
Pretty Drastic World View - @ Karen Sue and All
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_01/schicht092101.html
Just wanted to make sure not to miss Hans Schicht's latest
gloom, doom essay.
Grim, as BB would say - cb2
Black Blade
(9/20/01; 06:20:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 62000)
RE: Boxman - Pasminco
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010920/syd280878_1.html
Zinc market smarting as Pasminco struggles
Snippit:
SYDNEY, Sept 20 (Reuters) - Pasminco Ltd, set to continue churning out ore and metal from its far-reaching network of mines and smelters as it wrestles with crippling debt, faces waning demand for lead and zinc in world markets, commodities analysts said on Thursday. Zinc prices have fallen to their lowest ever and inventories of unsold metal are mounting, they said.
Black Blade: Could also hurt companies like APEX Silver (SIL) as their major San Cristobol Silver Mine in Bolivia is a primary Zinc and Lead producer.
BTW, What's new on the "Box" (containers) report? See a slowdown?
Belgian
(9/20/01; 06:14:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 61999)
The Beast
Shroeder, Chirac and Blair are not giving a blanco check on General Bush, into the coalition-fight against terror !
KarenSue, Hipplebeck, Henry...is this enough evidence for an impossibility of one *Political* world / one ruler ?
The *euro*, still has, but will be, evidence for the impossibility of one *Economical* world / one ruler ?
But at present the *Financial* part of the economy is under one world/one ruler, regime...with the abuse of the $/oil/gold - trio mechanism and the derivative tool. This bastion will fall as well.
As EMU-outsiders, the Swiss, might be very well cooperative with Allen, to provide some of their 1.300 tonnes of gold for sale, not through BIS !!! Helloooo transparency ?
Isn't it funny that the WGC announcement of the japanese 3 tonnes of gold buy, coincides with the Dutch (Netherlands) selling 3 tonnes as well ?
Where has Osama's horse been bringing him ? Bagdad ?
Boxman
(9/20/01; 06:14:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 61998)
Correct Pasminco hot link
http://www.pasminco.com.au/
Sorry about that, try the above link
Black Blade
(9/20/01; 06:11:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 61997)
European Markets Get Slaughtered!
http://quote.yahoo.com/m2?u
Euro markets got ripped a new today. Red across the board. Maria Bartiromo (CNBC Talking Head and wife of bankrupt "Individual Investor" editor J. Steinberg) says that corporations came into the markets and bought back shares in the last hour of trading - otherwise the DOW would have cratered to the tune of 425 pts. "GRIM"
Boxman
(9/20/01; 06:09:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 61996)
Pasminco update
http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=9
Statement below is from their website:
Pasminco has appointed Voluntary Administrators - trading in Pasminco shares on the Australian Stock Exchange have been suspended effective 20 September 2001 - for further information refer to ASX Release 19 September 2001
Thanks to I_am_not_a_number2000 from another site, who states:
<<This is great news for a silverbug like me. They are short something like 300 million ounces that they forward sold. Receivers would have to close out this position I guess. Could be time to rock.>>
Does anyone know if the above statemnet has any validity?
Black Blade
(9/20/01; 05:51:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 61995)
Market Futures Negative
http://www.mrci.com/qpnight.asp
Market futures are sharply lower. Looks like a significant drop at the open. As if the Patriotic Hype to invest wasn't bad enough, I just saw a commercial for the MunderFunds exploiting the tradgedy in an attempt to sucker more investors - shameless!
The strong USD policy is still in effect and that serves to add more nonessential "Bones" to the growing "Bone Pile." The "Working Groups on Financial Markets" will have their work cut out for them today. These powerful interests continue to push paper in a concerted effort to lower the POG. At times they lose their grip. However, the POG is a bit lower (for the time being). This means that the opportunity for "Cheap" gold purchases continues (for thr time being), although the physical price is really higher than the paper price - the beginning of the dissociation maybe? "Interesting Times"
- Black Blade
Netking
(9/20/01; 04:29:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 61994)
Japan Recession Looms Amid Grim Data
http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/breaking/breakingnewsarticle.asp?feed=OBR&Date=20010920&ID=1076554
Japan's slide into recession appeared to steepen on Thursday after the Bank of Japan released a depressing view of the economy and data showed its trade surplus had slumped even before last week's U.S. terror attacks.
Adding to the grim picture, figures on fund flows in and out of Japan showed foreign investors dumped a net $2.29 billion in Japanese stocks last week in a flurry of nervous repatriation as the U.S. girds for war.
The BOJ, fresh from its latest monetary easing, downgraded its economic assessment for the fourth straight month in a report that failed to locate a single bright spot in the economy.
In a worrying sign for Japan's swelling ranks of unemployed, it said the downturn was spreading to employment and incomes and cited deep uncertainty in the global economy following the devastating airplane assault on New York and Washington.
That assessment followed government data showing Japan's customs-cleared trade surplus dropped 47.2 percent in August from a year earlier, underscoring the pressure that slowing global growth was already putting on the export-oriented economy. . . ."
Netking
(9/20/01; 04:16:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 61993)
Silver - Dec '02
http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/SV/C2
Silver(Comex - Dec'02) $4.86/oz close yesterday against a high for the day of $4.88.
The Invisible Hand
(9/20/01; 03:46:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 61992)
Airline bonepile
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/newsid_1553000/1553676.stm
British Airways has announced it is cutting 7,000 jobs in the wake of the terror attacks on the US.
The figure includes 1,800 job losses announced before last week's atrocities
Article gives overview of airline bonepile:
· American Airlines owner AMR Corporation, cut 20,000 jobs, shared between American and a number of smaller subsidiaries
· United Airlines cut 20,000 jobs
· Aircraft giant Boeing plans to cut up to 30,000 jobs by the end of next year
· US Airways cut 11,000 jobs and slashed its schedule by 23%.
· Continental cut 12,000 staff, reduced its schedule by 20% and postponed the flotation of its ExpressJet unit.
· United Airlines, Delta, Air Canada, American Airlines and American Air Trans all cut schedules by 20%.
· Northwest said they would announce cutbacks later this week
· Midwest Airways said it would abandon financial restructuring and proceed with bankruptcy immediately.
· Avionics manufacturer Honeywell said it would eliminate 12,000 jobs, almost 4,000 more than previously announced.
· British transatlantic carrier Virgin Atlantic shed 1,200 jobs.
· Dutch KLM and Spain's Iberia both warned the attacks could lead them to report losses.
· German Lufthansa cut three of its transatlantic routes and said it was freezing hiring.
· Belgium's Sabena has said that it will not last beyond the end of the year unless it manages to restructure.
· Scandinavia's SAS, which saw its entire board resign on Monday due to an unrelated cartel scandal, said it would cut capacity in relation to the US crisis
· Irish airline Aer Lingus announced that it was to cut its operations by 25% and would let go more than 600 temporary staff.
· Air France said it was freezing hiring and retiring 17 planes from service.
· Swissair said the freezing of air travel last week cost it 65m Swiss francs ($41m, £28m). It expects its transatlantic passenger numbers to fall 10-15%, and will announce restructuring measures in October.
· American Airlines owner AMR Corporation, cut 20,000 jobs, shared between American and a number of smaller subsidiaries
· United Airlines cut 20,000 jobs
· Aircraft giant Boeing plans to cut up to 30,000 jobs by the end of next year
· US Airways cut 11,000 jobs and slashed its schedule by 23%.
· Continental cut 12,000 staff, reduced its schedule by 20% and postponed the flotation of its ExpressJet unit.
· United Airlines, Delta, Air Canada, American Airlines and American Air Trans all cut schedules by 20%.
· Northwest said they would announce cutbacks later this week
· Midwest Airways said it would abandon financial restructuring and proceed with bankruptcy immediately.
· Avionics manufacturer Honeywell said it would eliminate 12,000 jobs, almost 4,000 more than previously announced.
· British transatlantic carrier Virgin Atlantic shed 1,200 jobs.
· Dutch KLM and Spain's Iberia both warned the attacks could lead them to report losses.
· German Lufthansa cut three of its transatlantic routes and said it was freezing hiring.
· Belgium's Sabena has said that it will not last beyond the end of the year unless it manages to restructure.
· Scandinavia's SAS, which saw its entire board resign on Monday due to an unrelated cartel scandal, said it would cut capacity in relation to the US crisis
· Irish airline Aer Lingus announced that it was to cut its operations by 25% and would let go more than 600 temporary staff.
· Air France said it was freezing hiring and retiring 17 planes from service.
· Swissair said the freezing of air travel last week cost it 65m Swiss francs ($41m, £28m). It expects its transatlantic passenger numbers to fall 10-15%, and will announce restructuring measures in October.
Belgian
(9/20/01; 02:43:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 61991)
THE GREATEST PRETENDER.......the US$
High concentration of wonderfull posts on fundamentals, the past 2 days. Bravo !
The following observation has evidential force on a lot of Gold-Fundamentals, teached on this forum :
All directly concerned Gold-organizations, as there are WGC - GFMS - Goldavenue - Miningweb - Goldproducers - Central Banks - bullion Banks...etc,
REFUSED AND KEEP ON REFUSING TO CONSIDER GOLD-FUNDAMENTALS IN PUBLIC !!!
Their public appearences and message transfers continue to be of infantile content. This is done on purpose !
It is an absolute silence...repeat ABSOLUTE ! The oligopolistic Gold-community is an important (and necessary)shackle into the financial chain as that part of the economy that has to hold-up, the global fantasy. It is as dramatic as this !
There is not one single other final conclusion that can be brought forward, with a reasonable plausability. If so, just let us know.
If not *ONE* single aspect of the trainloads of fundamentals is worth considering by the few public gold-organisations...there is no other conclusion that most of the argumentation, here (and elsewhere) in development, is not far from the dark reality.
All "intervieuws" that are published by the gold-organisations, are extremely negatively biased, ad nauseum.
Time and time again, *essentials* are elegantly avoided and infantile blahblahblah, prevails.
This is a very recognizable procedure and used, again and again, with many convenient variables. Amen.
Netking
(9/20/01; 02:13:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 61990)
Silver market review - Leonard Kaplan
http://www.321gold.com/editorials/kaplan/kaplan09_19_01.html
In a complete frenzy of short covering and light commission house (retail investor) buying, silver rocketed today, up 25 cents in one of the largest rallies seen in many years. Please note that this occurred while copper was lower, gold was just moderately higher by a couple of dollars, oil was down and the equities markets suffered another horrible day, although they recovered a bit by the close. My apologies to all the rabid silver bulls out there, but this movement seemed to be quite the aberration. Which is not to say that it will not go higher.
Comex traded about 40,000 contracts today, an absolutely huge amount compared to recent numbers. But the interesting fact is that the last few days, open interest has declined. Which tells us that this is simply a short covering rally. My experience over 25+ years tells me that the funds were covering their short positions in a market where the professionals were certainly not anxious to go short the metal, almost at any price, due to the current conditions of possible war. I have been very bullish silver for a very long time, as my readers know, but these prices seem a bit silly. In fact, in ACCESS trading, silver is already down about 8 cents, losing about 1/3 of its gain already. I would truly love to buy silver lower but these levels are not appealing.
I was amused by the fact that many news services attributed today's rise in silver to the fact that 30 million ounces of silver lay buried beneath the ruins of the World Trade Center, and as such, this fear prompted this rally. Well, please explain to me why this rally happened today, instead of the day after the horrific event occurred. Did it take a whole week for this fact to "sink in" to the collective minds of the market? No, I think not. . . . "
Spartacus
(9/20/01; 02:07:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 61989)
The Clearinghouse Interbank Payment System (CHIPS) damaged according to EIR !
Global Financial System
by Lothar Komp
This article appears in the Sept. 21, 2001 issue of Executive Intelligence Review.
http://www.larouchepub.com/
……Another imminent threat to the global financial system is posed by the demolition of the Clearinghouse Interbank Payment System (CHIPS), the private telecommunications system operated by the New York Clearinghouse Association for banks in the New York area. Some of its physical infrastructure was destroyed, so that the whole CHIPS system was non-functional after the terror attack…
If this true it can have huge consequences, because failures in payment and settlement systems is in fact a potential source of systemic fragility !
ViewYesterday's Discussion.
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