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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 8/20/2000
All times are U.S. Mountain Time
(Yesterday's Discussion.)
Aristotle
(08/20/00; 23:56:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 35240)
Hi Canuck
"Ari,
What do you make of this paragraph of the A.H. article? I find this most bizarre and I believe the author makes a valid point.
Thanks, Canuck."
---------------------
Yes, that round of fiddling with the components of the Philadelphia Stock Exchange Gold and Silver Index (XAU) is bizarre indeed, but as long as I'm taking a rare moment to comment on mining stocks, on the specific subject of Chris Thompson let me be quick to say that I have a tremendous amount of respect for him and his admirable attempts to provide an example of leadership for the industry with regard to recognizing the unique nature of the the product being produced.
That aside and moving to your question, I don't clearly follow Hamilton's rationale in that passage because I don't see the signals sent by the XAU as anything that ranks anywhere near in importance with those sent by the Gold futures markets. Whether or not investors actually perceive a XAU signal as inspiring them to participate in momentum investing that might lead to bidding up the share prices of various mining companies seems to me to be of no material effect on the going concerns of the bullion banks. After all, if the price of Barrick, or Newmont, or Placer Dome happen to rise for whatever reason, the more important price of bullion as influenced through contract sales via COMEX would remain entirely unaffected. What's more, such a share price-rise of mining companies could be ultimately deemed as helpful to the bullion banks by not only giving would-be Gold investors an attractive alternative investment vehicle instead of metal, but also giving the mining companies a potential source of income (issuing additional equity into the heightened demand) to keep them viable so that they can continue to pull Gold out of the ground to service the outstanding Gold loans.
That's my take on it. Not much, really. Sorry.
Gold Trail Update
(08/20/00; 23:23:04MDT - Msg ID:35239)
The Gold Trail Discussion has been Updated
The Gold Trail Discussion has been updated. Click on the link to read the latest updates.
The Invisible Hand
(08/20/00; 22:02:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 35238)
euro leads to runaway inflation
http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/Sunday-Times/frontpage.html?999
Cavan Man,
The lesson Britain learned from Ireland is that the euro leads to runaway inflation as inappropriate interest rates have undermined economic stability. Britain would have even worse problems if it joined
Here's from the Business Section of the August 20, 2000, London Sunday Times
ANYONE who wants to get a feel for the extent to which joining the euro could destabilise Britain's economy should take careful note of the latest economic news from Ireland.
From the day the euro was launched on January 1, 1999, Ireland has been seen as the test case par excellence for the euro zone's one-size-fits-all interest-rate policy. And Ireland is especially interesting because, among the 11 economies opting for membership of euroland, it was closest to the position Britain would have been in had we, too, opted to join.
Ireland's interest rates, like Britain's, were well above the euro zone's before 1999 and had to be cut to euro levels during the few months before entry. It was entirely predictable that such interest-rate cuts on the back of a rapidly growing economy would stoke up an inflationary fire with the potential to turn into a conflagration. This is exactly what has happened.
The chart shows the picture clearly. From 2% at the beginning of last year, Ireland's inflation has soared to 6.2%, the highest rate since 1985. And it continues to accelerate as inappropriately low interest rates generate consequences only too familiar on this side of the Irish Sea - a housing boom and soaring consumer credit all too reminiscent of Britain's boom and bust in the late 1980s when we, too, were trying to keep our exchange rate fixed against the D-mark.
It was argued, before Ireland took the plunge, that even if interest rates were too low as a result of euro membership, the inflationary impact of these could be offset by a tighter fiscal policy - tax increases or spending cuts - a perfectly respectable notion in terms of economic theory, but as Ireland's experience is demonstrating, politically naive.
The Irish government is running a record budget surplus. There is admittedly the added complication that the unions are pressing for further tax cuts to underpin a wage-restraint deal, but it is next to impossible to win political support for tax increases or spending cuts when the budget is already in substantial surplus. The fiscal weapon is not available - at any rate until an inflation crisis reaches gigantic proportions.
Once it starts, therefore, there is nothing to stop inflation continuing to gather pace. Indeed, with rising domestic prices, and interest rates - reflecting economic conditions in euroland as a whole - reasonably static, real interest rates will continue to fall in Ireland, exactly the opposite of what is needed to restore stability.
What are the lessons for Britain as it agonises over joining the euro? The first is clear. Britain cannot even contemplate joining the euro until interest rates here have "converged" with those in euroland.
Had Britain joined the euro at the same time as Ireland, we would by now, as a result of a drop in interest rates inappropriate for our own economy, been well on the way to Lawson boom Mk 2. Britain's inflation profile would have been much more like Ireland's instead of continuing to subside gently, as the chart illustrates, under the Bank of England's wise guidance, and there would have been much worse in store.
"Convergence" means not just that at one point in time interest rates here and in the euro zone happen to coincide, creating a window of opportunity, but that the economy can run happily and indefinitely at the level of interest rates implied by membership of the euro zone. As Sir Eddie George, the Bank of England governor, said recently: "A window does not seem to me the right sort of analogy. We must put the emphasis on sustainability."
So what are the chances that in the next year or two the British economy will adjust appropriately and that interest rates, now some two percentage points above euroland's, will come sustainably into line with it?
In theory, the government could create the conditions for rates to come into line with Europe by tightening the fiscal screws to ensure that prices did not take off as rates subsided. But again this is a political non-starter. Gordon Brown starts with a large budget surplus, and it would in any circumstances be difficult enough to convince the Labour party that this should be increased still further at the expense of spending on public services. In fact, the policy he has recently adopted - record rises in public spending and a declining budget surplus - is the reverse of what is required to prepare the economy to join the euro.
So unless the economy adjusts spontaneously, a decision to join the single currency would require the reversal of many of the spending decisions proudly announced last month, to curb the inflationary boom that euro interest rates would generate.
This is obviously not going to happen, and with government policy working actively against it, it will require an extraordinary amount of luck for sustainable convergence to come about of its own accord.
But suppose it did. Suppose that by magic, British interest rates came into line with euroland's and the pound weakened against the euro at the same time. Should we then conclude that Britain could join the euro zone without serious economic disruption?
The answer is still no. In his new book, Britain, Europe and Emu, the Oxford economist Walter Eltis draws attention to the high level of mortgage debt in Britain (60% of gross domestic product compared with 40%, 25% and 10% in Germany, France and Italy respectively). In Britain, the greater part of this is financed at variable interest rates, whereas variable-rate borrowing on the Continent is negligible.
Add to this higher personal holdings of financial assets in Britain, mainly shares, and the result is that the impact of any interest-rate change would be four times as great in Britain as in the other parts of euroland. Since Britain's share of European Union GDP is about 15%, this means about 40% of the total EU-wide impact on spending of changes in the euro interest rate would be felt in Britain.
Perhaps you would like to read that sentence again. What it means is that, even if the entry conditions were about right and Britain decided to join the euro, our economy would be continually disrupted thereafter as the European Central Bank moved the euro interest rate up and down, leaving Britain rising and plunging like a yo-yo while the rest of the EU remained stable. This is hardly consistent with Brown's commitment "to move Britain from the instabilities of a stop-go economy to greater long-term stability".
This is a problem not shared by Ireland, which does not have the same degree either of floating-rate debt or of personal equity holding. It is unique to Britain. It means that even if Britain's interest rates were to converge with euro levels, we should not even contemplate membership until the structure of personal finances in Britain has become much more similar to euroland's.
Cavan Man
(08/20/00; 21:14:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 35237)
Irish Real Estate or the NDQ 100 Index
Wait to invest in both.
Cavan Man
(08/20/00; 21:10:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 35236)
Ireland
USAGOLD- I've been there recently. I took copious notes of the social/economic/political climate. In fact, I even had an editorial publihsed in one of the local papers.
The economic climate in Ireland is not much different than here in the US. Growth and inflation percentages will perhaps paint a picture but I can tell youn first hand that Mr. Greenspan in his younger days would definitely brand the speculation (in just about everything) there as irrational exuberance par excellence. In Ireland, would you expect that a 1200 sqft. dwelling with a lot of perhaps 50 X 100 cost $150K USD. This same dwelling is at the top of a crooked lane about 60 kliks from Dublin--out in the middle of nowhere. Now, you might say good for the Irish and good for free markets (not Meakem's company) and I would agree. However, does Irish real estate rival SF or NYC in value? Does it deserve to be priced at valuations rivaling east or west coast US? I say no as an investor but as a fellow human being I believe in the adage, "never count another man's money".
You are a critic of the Euro but at the same time you opine against the valuation of the dollar. The Euro is no better than the dollar with the exception that it is much younger. Whilst being concerned about the dollar and the possibility of hyperinflation in global monetary context, I for one am glad there is an alternative unit of account in the Euro. Really, what's the alternative; global monetary chaos until the US regroups? Forget it. In DM we trust? Ha! I feel just a little better because I am investing in a mutual fund of currencies.
The European Union both monetary and political is imperfect. There is no block of nation states in this world that can attempt (successfully) to emulate the Union here in the US--absolutely no way so, to compare what the EU is attempting to do to the success we've enjoyed here since 1776 is unrealistic. Still, we do have our own problems here do we or do we not?
Sorry for the rambling. Hope some of this made sense. Respectfully....CM
As a member of the global economy, Ireland's future is vis a vis the old contiment despite the US investment. Common sense will eventually prevail. Britain will also join.
ET
(08/20/00; 20:55:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 35235)
Al
Hey Al - You wrote;
"Me: If I understand yourself and von Mises, you do not believe in religious association in
economics, but you do believe in correct and incorrect economic ideas. Am I right?"
I believe there are those ideas that stand the test of time. They tend to be the ideas that most exactly match the marketplace in nature. I would say most of the "new" economic ideas are nothing more than attempts at justifying the status quo.
"If so, then
what motive does a person have to abide in your philosphy if they find it easier to be on
welfare, or to steal wealth?"
It wouldn't be easier to be on welfare if welfare had to compete for savings. I would assume in any society theft would be illegal, yes?
"Why should China, Japan, or any other nation trade by von Mises
rule, if they are only concerned with keeping their own status quo or power structure? They
are not interested in correct ideas."
I don't understand. If you do not want to trade with the above countries, why do you? If your government wasn't involved in the trading process, you wouldn't have to worry about this issue. You would buy what you wanted from the vendor you decide provides the best value. Markets change over time. An unwillingness to change with them has led to more disasters than not.
This is what happens. You have arbitrarily decided that you want to protect some industry or job from the marketplace. This on its face is impossible in the long run. What you are actually saying is that I'm going to interfere in the marketplace to protect my way of life which is no longer competitive. I'll kick any tail or borrow any amount necessary to protect my way of life. You can do it for awhile but you better make sure you either have overwhelming force or very friendly creditors.
Sorry, I'll take my chances in the marketplace. This is no way to go through life.
"Again I agree with yours and von Mises stated purpose, I
just think you all discount the obvious. You can't make everyone believe you because you
'reason' with them."
It's been my experience Al, you can't make people do anything. Your only hope is to reason with them.
"Twisting an arm or two works too!"
But it runs a very poor second to reason.
"And sometimes we have to see trading
partners for what they are. Not very nice people. Show them what we have to offer, ask for
trade between two nations, give them a chance. If it works, we are brothers, if they refuse to
play fair, we put up barriers, like a parent takes his son's car keys away for the weekend."
You see this paternalism as preferable to the free market?
"Best to you."
Thanks for giving me your thoughts. I really believe that with time you will see it my way. Fairness in trading begins with the freedom of choice. The problem here is the money. Don't let the real cause of your consternation, unsound money, negatively impact your ability to keep an open mind on free markets. We all benefit when we are allowed to freely choose.
Best to you also.
SHIFTY
(08/20/00; 20:24:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 35234)
The Invisible Hand
Ha Ha Ha
The Invisible Hand
(08/20/00; 20:17:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 35233)
Roads and garbage
$hifty,
If people had to pay to use the roads, they would perhaps think twice before going to the woods to dump their garbage as they would have to pay for using the roads from home to the woods. The IVH
SHIFTY
(08/20/00; 20:09:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 35232)
PPU Periodic Ponzi Update
Nasdaq 3,930.34 + Dow 11,046.48 = 14,976.82 divide by 2 = 7,488.41 Ponzi
Up 79.78 from last week!
$hifty
SHIFTY
(08/20/00; 20:01:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 35231)
The Invisible Hand
Roads come in handy when there is food, fuel, mail, and other necessities to be delivered in a timely fashion.If the roads were owned by privet interests the tolls would probably cost more than the system we now have.
The trash collection service I have now is a Private company and the fee is added to property tax. I have no choice in the company ( they suck ) and if you don't pay you loose your land. The reason for this is some people dump trash in the woods. Some still do.
You just cant win .
$hifty
Canuck
(08/20/00; 19:58:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 35230)
@ Aristotle, All
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_00/hamilton082000.html
One paragraph from Hamilton;
-----------------------------------------------------------
"The addition of Phelps Dodge, a huge copper miner, to the XAU left a baffled gold investor community. Phelps Dodge itself claims that less than 1% of its revenue is from gold and silver, which is simply a small, immaterial byproduct of its copper mining operations. Phelps Dodge's investor relations liaison has stated that the company was not consulted by the Philadelphia Stock Exchange on the decision, and Phelps Dodge itself has no idea why it is included in the XAU as a "gold mine". The mysterious addition of Phelps Dodge to the XAU made the copper miner the third most important company in the index, accounting for over 14% of its weight. Shortly after this very strange occurrence, one of the biggest and best gold mining operations in the world, Goldfields, was removed from the XAU. Many speculated the reason the stock was kicked out of the index was for Goldfields CEO Chris Thompson's strong and courageous public comments against forward selling and leasing of gold, which have been virtually proven to severely depress the price of gold. These cryptic occurrences have left a shell of an XAU that is only very loosely correlated with the performance and profitability of unhedged gold mining operations. When gold begins to rise, many casual investors will look at the now sham XAU, see it remain flat, and assume that gold mining shares are not rising in price. It really is a very clever stratagem by the gold shorting crowd, to break the most common instrument used to measure gold share performance in order to attempt to retard future investment demand as the physical metal itself begins to rise. Looking past the smoke and mirrors, this recent move to destroy the validity of the XAU is a key indicator of the levels of visceral fear and outright terror building in those who owe physical gold to others. The economics of the gold market, coupled with the increasing evidence that the gold suppression scheme is reaching vital sink or swim time, indicates all hope is virtually lost for those who foolishly decided to declare war on a critically important global free market."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ari,
What do you make of this paragraph of the A.H. article? I find this most bizarre and I believe the author makes a valid point.
Thanks,
Canuck.
Aristotle
(08/20/00; 19:15:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 35229)
Ireland
Maybe Ireland is becoming to the euro bloc what California, or for other reasons Alaska, has been in some regards to the dollar bloc. Just food for thought.
The Invisible Hand
(08/20/00; 18:54:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 35228)
Sell the streets!
$hifty,
I don't see why it should the government's task to provide roads.
National defense is another thing.
The late Murray Rothbard has indicated that the main reason a conquering country can rule a defeated country is that the latter has an existing State apparatus to transmit and enforce the victor's orders onto a subject population (ROTHBARD, M., "For a New Liberty - The Libertarian Manifesto", New York, Libertarian Review Foundation, 1978, 2nd rev. ed., p.240)
Some anarcho-capitalists like David (son of Milton) Friedman call national defense the hard problem and would not like to abolish that last vestige of government.
He writes:
"I do not like paying taxes, but I would rather pay them to Washington than to Moscow - the rates are lower. I would still regard the government as a criminal organization, but one which was, by a freak of fate, temporarily useful. It would be like a gang of bandits who, while occasionally robbing the villages in their territory, served to keep off other and more rapacious gangs. I do not approve of any government, but I will tolerate one, so long as the only other choice is another, worse government. Meanwhile, I would do my best to develop voluntary institutions that might eventually take over the business of defense. That is precisely what I meant when I said, near the beginning of the book, that I thought all government functions were divided into two classes - those we could do away with today and those we hope to be able to do away with tomorrow" (FRIEDMAN, D., The machinery of Freedom - Guide to a Radical Capitalism", New Rochelle, New York, Arlington House, 1973, p.197 ).
USAGOLD
(08/20/00; 18:51:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 35227)
I love our news feed. . . Here's a good one that you won't find in your morning paper's tomorrow. The developing situation in Ireland. . .
http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=003100565149417&rtmo=a2sHwNNL&atmo=hhhhhhhe&pg=/et/00/8/21/ccminf21.html
From the link above:
"It (the situation in Ireland) also shows the Achilles heel of a monetary union between sovereign nations. Any of them can,
at any time, decide to leave with little recourse by the others. Has the EU got an army to stop
them, or funds that it can legitimately withdraw? The Austrian case has shown the absurdity of
sanctions. The euro would not be under threat from Irish withdrawal, but the precedent would be
ominous."
USAGOLD: If this is the case during an inflationary episode, just wait until unemployment becomes the problem of the day and monetary union members find their hands tied in terms of running deficits and debasing the currency. London, take note.
Aristotle
(08/20/00; 18:49:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 35226)
Huh???
Cavan Man, please elaborate on my mean streak.
As merely the human author of my post I don't have full control over its interpretation, though it seems to me that my mention of Adam Hamilton talking "colorfully around the subject to raise vital awareness but neglect[ing] to deliver the goods" can scarcely be taken as much other than a natural segue to more fully discuss the mechanism of Gold's depression which was seemingly the topic of the moment. It also allowed me to work the oft-cited value of 10,000 tonnes in Gold loans into the context of my discussion about banking and the inevitable outcome--even when using honest weights as a unit of account. And it was in that regard that I mentioned King Midas to draw an illustrative parallel--it had nothing to do with Adam Hamilton because I don't recall his post as aver putting him in the same camp as the "Return to Monetary Honest Weights and Measures" people.
However, if my post in any way offended any of the parties mentioned either by name or indirectly, such as AH, honest weights advocates, King Midas, bullion bankers, dollar holders, central bankers, futures traders, oil producers, our resident Freshman, Gold depositors and borrowers, common banks, the public, commericial institutions, neanderthals (wait for it), and anyone who likes toast, my apologies are offered, and I'll endeavor to be more delicate in future efforts. Sometimes I have the etiquette of a neanderthal in my haste to contribute a point while time allows.
Kid gloves. Got me some. ---Aristotle
Cavan Man
(08/20/00; 17:53:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 35225)
Aristotole
Ari, hello there. I think you're being too harsh on AH. There are many reasons to own gold at this juncture (critical). Your writings have influenced me tremendously. I can say the same about FOA, MK, TC and our friend "the Stranger". As FOA once said, (I paraphrase)"There is a lot of room to talk up, down over and around this issue (of gold ownership)". No single intellect has a copywright on THE REASON to own gold. The single compelling reason to own gold is the fact that there are so many reasons (to own gold). Now, I yield to your wisdom.
Aristotle
(08/20/00; 17:25:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 35224)
Do you REALLY know what you want, King Midas?
Many speak of manipulation and victimization in the Gold and currency arenas, and as a "cure" they think they want a return to a Golden monetary system built upon honest weights and measures. As I suggested to our resident Freshman yesterday, we currently do have such a system in place functioning alongside all of the paper currencies in the world, and yet these discontented people not only fail to recognize that their wish has already been granted, but like King Midas, they are actually further disturbed with the results stemming from their wishes having been made a reality. Naturally, I am speaking of the practice of modern bullion banking with the attendant banking activity of Gold borrowing/lending.
I've seen a number of people lately cheering the expository efforts of Adam Hamilton, yet as I read his latest commentary I was left thinking that he talked colorfully around the subject to raise vital awareness but neglected to deliver the goods.
Twenty year lows in the dollar-based price and apparent value of Gold to Americans can be pinned on two things: 1) that the honest weights and measures people currently have what they thought they wanted, and 2) that highly-visible futures markets facilitate a bogus (yet accepted) means of price discovery.
Regarding that first item, Hamilton at one point bemoans the10,000+ tonnes of Gold that are owed by various institutions. Well, I'm sorry folks, but that's exactly what happens when banking is conducted with honest weights and measures--tonnes are borrowed and tonnes are then owed. Prior to 1971, tonnes were also borrowed, but we called them dollars at the time, and your typical American person didn't see the Gold connection very clearly. (Back then each tonne of Gold in international banking was thinnly veiled as something the world commonly called 1.125 million dollars.)
But as we all know, that banking system got overextended, so we removed the Gold component of the contracts and simply kept going about the banking business using the existing positions but with a Gold-free dollar. This was doable in part because some important worldly market participants agreed to cooperate, and also because the word "dollar" was more familiar to many small players than the uncalled-for Gold that the dollars previously represented. (From 1933 to 1975 American were prohibited by law from owning or converting their dollars to Gold bullion.) So with the dollar no longer as the pure (fixed) denominator of Gold banking operations, these commercial bullion banking operations can be seen to funtion now in terms of ounces or tonnes that are lent and borrowed, even as dollars (then and now) are lent and borrowed by common banks. The outcome is an apparent INFLATION of the item used in the banking accounts, which holds as true for ounces and tonnes of Gold as it does for dollars.
As I cautioned before, the fact that this Gold banking system suffered a catastrophic failure in 1971 even while it was in the operational hands of the offical "masters of the Universe" (the national Central Banks), it should not be unthinkable that a similar failure in now also inevitable with our modern Gold banking system in the hands of less resourceful and less powerful commercial banks such as we see organized in the LBMA. Put simple, banking can seemingly put a small amount of Gold into many different pockets at the same time. The system is exposed and breaks when even a small number people reach into their pockets at the same time.
In 1971, the expected ounces no longer to be delivered in defaulted Gold loan instruments (such as Treasury bonds) were basically converted into Gold-free dollars as an accounting unit, and the world limped forward as these existing financial positions worked themselves out as the world continued to trade these Gold-free dollars (thanks largely to oil producers maintaining acceptance.) When a similar bankruptcy/default sweeps over the commercial Gold banking paper, does anyone here cling to the fantasy that the defaulted tonnes of loans can be converted to dollar units again for a smooth long-term workout? I don't think so! Being closer to a commercial currency, only the euro offers any hope for use as the denominator in working through the next worldwide collapse of the Gold banking system. The dollar will be utterly exposed, and will be toast!
To wrap up this first element, let me just say that the "honest weights and measures" people would do well to recognize the unavoidable effects of banking, and instead champion an alternate cause called "honest property ownership" whereby Gold can no longer be used for lending in either public or commercial banking.
And because its recently been well-covered here in recent weeks, let me only briefly summarize the key element of the second point responsible for Gold's 20-year malaise in the eyes of American investors. Because the public continues to be willing to accept price-discovery as it occurs on the futures markets, a bullion bank has an easy choice when it comes to insuring its own position in the Gold lending business. While the hasty thinker might conclude that they would or should buy enough long postions to cover themselves against a possible price-rise, such activity would actually cause the price-rise, and they would be chasing their own tail in a losing game. No, it is much easier to simply cap the price by offering to sell as many futures contracts as the marketplace requires to satisfy the daily assortment of buyers. And by thus ensuring a steady or falling price, they instill confidence in the minds of their Gold depositors that there is nothing to fear with regard to the solvency of the bullion banks and the expectations for reliable servicing of the outstanding tonnes of Gold loans. It is distinctly NOT the covering of these futures shorts that will somehow, someday give the higher prices sought by the typical goldbug futures trader. It wouldn't be in the bullion bankers' best interests, and furthermore, the prices wouldn't be this low if it were beyond their power to do what I've suggested they do. They have a successful track record in the face of physical market realities that would otherwise defy explanation. To be sure, they can take these paper Gold derivates lower, and they likely will. But at some point the physical market will simply have to price itself based on real demand and limited supply, not the endless supply of Gold futures contracts which are offered for sale.
Knowing what you should now know about the first point, use the low prices resulting from both of these elements to stock up on Gold prior to the inevitable system failure and the consequential roasting of the dollar.
Clarity on the Gold situation. Get you some, then get you Some. ---Aristotle
Please forgive the typos. This was hastily written and without a spellcheck or grammatical once-over.
schippi
(8/20/2000; 15:46:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 35223)
POG five day forecast
http://www.SelectSectors.com/pog.gif
Linear and nonlinear projections:
SHIFTY
(8/20/2000; 13:28:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 35222)
The Invisible Hand :
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.overview.html
The Invisible Hand: You said " Maybe it's constitutional, but I suppose some other US laws prohibit theft. "
This statement leads me to believe that you are not an American citizen,( no offense) or you would know for a fact that other US laws do prohibit theft. You also stated that a thief does not come back periodically. Some do . It reminds me of a case here a few years ago. An elderly gentleman ( I think he was in his 80s at the time) was having his social security check stolen each month after the mailman would deliver it. He had been beaten each time. On the last occasion he was beaten and thrown into a closet . The same closet where he kept his shotgun. He emerged from the closet and shot and killed both thieves.
You ask " How can I defend the TAXMAN , ie a person who's worse than a thief?
Some taxes are (like it or not ) necessary in order to maintain roads and infrastructure and other needful things like defense of our country. However I do NOT defend the IRS.
The way I understand it , from some information I have on the subject:
Why was a personal, progressive income tax placed upon We the People in 1913 - the same year as the Federal Reserve ( a privet corporation) came into being? How else could the kingpins of the Fed finance all this usury charged against a bogus currency? By simply taxing the people and calling this illegal scam a national debt.
Contrary to IRS opinion and the propaganda espoused by the insiders, the 16th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution was never ratified. Bill Benson and Red Beckmen, two dedicated American patriots , went to 48 states legislatures and discovered something very shocking: Only three states voted for the ratification of the 16th Amendment! Their exhaustively researched document, The Law That Never Was, Volumes 1&2 , demonstrates beyond a shadow of a doubt that the 16th Amendment was never properly ratified. It was simply declared to be in effect by President Taft's Secretary of State, Philander Knox.
At the link above is a full cross-referenced text of the United States Constitution furnished by the Cornell Law School.
It's free :)
$hifty
auspec
(8/20/2000; 12:50:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 35221)
Zeal Intelligence
Gentle people,
I have so far read 4 of Adam Hamilton's essays and thoroughly enjoyed each, to the point that I have signed up for his monthly Zeal Intelligence. Also eagerly await the next pieces by Reg Howell and Ted Butler.
MK- Thanks for the coins and quality of service {not in recent context, however}.
Let's get PHYSICAL!
Leigh
(8/20/2000; 11:38:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 35220)
Cavan Man
http://zealllc.com/financial.htm
Cavan Man, I looked through Mr. Hamilton's website the other day in a spirit of sheer admiration. There is some information from his resume at the bottom of the above webpage. I agree with you; Mr. Hamilton is a masterful writer. I always feel that I have been in the presence of greatness after reading his work.
Cavan Man
(8/20/2000; 11:10:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 35219)
Adam Hamilton
Does anyone know anything about Mr. Hamilton; specifically his credentials? I read his essay over at GE yesterday and it seemed to make excellent sense. Thanks
Cavan Man
(8/20/2000; 11:07:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 35218)
beesting
No, I haven't but it sounds like good fun. Why do they display gold?
searching
(8/20/2000; 10:55:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 35217)
Taxes
The constitution allows for taxation as was stated earlier. The thing most people do not realize is that there are only two forms of taxation that are allowed according to the constitution. The first is an Excise tax which was described in an earlier post. The second is a tax based upon pure apportionment. In this form everyone must pay the same say like $10 for every person. A graduated income tax is illegal according to the constitution based upon these two approved descriptions. Now someone will bring up the 16th constitutional ammendment as modifing the constitution. Well if you look at the wording of this ammendment you will see that it does alter the original wording of the constitution. The only two forms of legal taxation are the two described in the constitution. Also it is my understanding that the appropriate number of states never ratified this ammendment although I have never investigated this myself. I am not a tax protester but I think it is important that everyone really understands what is going on.
beesting
(8/20/2000; 9:10:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 35216)
Hi Sir Cavan Man.
I'm off right now to attend an annual "Celtic Gathering", view the Gold displayed, and visit with the "Clans". Have you ever been to a gathering of the Clans?.....beesting.
Al Fulchino
(8/20/2000; 8:19:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 35215)
(No Subject)
The Invisible Hand (08/19/00; 22:21:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 35207)
Al's Big Stick msg#: 35180
"So all in all I agree with your ultimate goal, but not until we use our big stick to keep our enemies away and ..."
Others used this Forum recently to discuss Nazism.
Let me be clear, I DON'T AGREE WITH YOUR ULTIMATE GOAL.
Me: Then we agree to disagree. <offering handshake>. Big sticks are something that certain people will listen to after all else fails.
Canuck
(8/20/2000; 7:23:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 35214)
@ Black Blade
http://www.futuresmag.com/weeklycolumnist/archive.html
BB,
Thanks for the info. and 'link' yesterday; bond section was most informative as well.
Here's a link back. Interesting 'strangle hold' option play
comment in the July article, "OPEC, The Stock Market and the Presidential Election"
Canuck.
Cavan Man
(8/20/2000; 6:39:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 35213)
beesting 35208
Hello beesting. That's an excellent point. I have long considered the direct importation very significant. Also, I do remember FOA writing that the BIS would open an office in the Far East.
HI - HAT
(8/20/2000; 5:50:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 35212)
Non-Parity raw material production + DEBT = WARA
At various intervals during the Race To The BOTTOM, trading
regimes that ignore raw material pricing parity and the local countries capitol cost and operating cost structure,
results in movements to recapture the lost standards and fruits
of productive endeavor.
This is accomplished with Civil Unrest and WARS.
HI - HAT
(8/20/2000; 5:26:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 35211)
SHIFTY....Al Fulchino.......Free Trade
As presently structured, free trade is not unlike a snake eating its own tail. The non-virtuous circle commences with debased fiats constantly falling purchasing power, hence the clamoring to buy cheap Foriegn junk at Wal-Mart.
The BIG International capitol over-seers are the only ones who ultimately benifit from this type of Regime.
This is so because it sets up within all other stratas
of the production cycle
..........A Race For The BOTTOM
The Invisible Hand
(8/20/2000; 2:42:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 35210)
Theft
$hifty
You said "I will grant you the Constitution does not forbid free trade, however, it sounds to me that putting a tariff on imported goods is Constitutional. Is it not ?"
Maybe it's constitutional, but I suppose some other US laws prohibit theft. A tariff is a tax. There two differences between tax and theft:
1. the thief does not come back periodically
2. the thief doesn't pretend to be stealing in the general interest.
How can you defend the taxman, i.e. a person who's worse than a thief?
SHIFTY
(8/20/2000; 1:26:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 35209)
ET , Journeyman ,The Invisible Hand ,all
I under stand that there are some countries around the world who are stricken ( for many reasons ) with poverty . My hart goes out to them as I'm sure yours does too. However I don't feel obligated to send them my job , or worse yet your job. Unfortunately that is what I see happening in the USA . Our trade deficit is proof in that we don't make the products we consume. If one looks at the country of origin on the items at most any store in the country it will be easy to prove that . I have been told that my views will lead to socialism and nationalism. I never hear of American-ism or Constitutional. In the Constitution of the United States in the first few lines of Article.1 Section 8. I quote
" The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;"
$hifty: OK I think we all know what Taxes are correct ? Let's look in the dictionary at the others.
Duties = #5 a tax imposed by law on the import or export of goods.
Imposts = a customs duty.
Excises = a tax on certain commodities, levied on their manufacture , sale ,or consumption within the country.
Welfare = the state of being healthy, properly fed, and comfortable.
I will grant you the Constitution does not forbid free trade, however, it sounds to me that putting a tariff on imported goods is Constitutional. Is it not ?
$hifty
:)
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