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Welcome to the USAGOLD Gold Discussion Archives. The archives of this gold discussion forum are a treasure trove of information to educate investors about protecting their wealth through portfolio diversification with private gold ownership. The discussion forum also covers the wider issues of the past, present, and future role of gold in international monetary policy and the dynamics of the modern gold markets...

The opinions posted by all guests are expressly their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the management or staff of USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals. The hosting of the public discussion shall therefore not be construed as an endorsement by USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals of any of the opinions posted here.

ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 11/20/2000
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

(Yesterday's Discussion.)

Black Blade (11/20/00; 23:52:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 41890)
RE: rr and Beesting
http://m1.mny.co.za/MGGold.nsf/Current/4225685F0043D1B24225699C00303590?OpenDocument
The link is to the article "The Real Price of Gold" by Paul van Eeden that you both refer too. I tend to agree with much of his analysis as far as Gold has been an excellent currency against all currencies except the US Dollar. Gold has outperformed the Yen, Euro, Pound, etc. and especially well against the other third world currncies as well. That said, he does not believe that the CB sales and Producer Hedging programs have been a cause. Here is where I tend to disagree. Immediately after the Washinton Agreement where Central Banks put a limit on leasing and sales, the POG rocketed upward in US dollar terms, only to splash down when some obscure Central Banks revealed continuing sales. When Jay Taylor, CEO of Placer Dome Gold (PDG) announced that his company would curtail it's hedging program and begin to unwind current position, the POG rocketed upward once again, only to splash down as Barrick Gold (ABX) announced that not only would they continue to sell forward, but would increase their forward sold position, even bragging that they were financial wizards by doing so, which leads to the possibilty about fears of a rising POG, but that is another story ala Ashanti (ASL) and Cambior (CBJ). However, the article is well worth the read if for anything it does show that gold as a competitive currency is only second to the US Dollar, and when the Dollar devalues, Gold will do exceptionally well.

beesting (11/20/00; 23:29:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 41889)
Hi,Sir rc msg.41880.....comments welcome.
There are so many conflicting official and un-official opinions on the worlds Gold markets that no-one seems to really have all the answers.

rc,Mr. Van Eeden a South African broker would be viewing the every day value of Gold in Rands, since the Rand, along with many of the other worlds currencies are losing value in relation to the U.S. dollar almost by the minute, BUT the price of Gold in all those currencies is remaining almost stable, he(Mr. Van Eeden) has made a chart which shows that Gold costs about the same in Rands as it did in 1996. Interesting...yes?

Euro zone CB's are selling about 400 tonnes of Gold per year.(Washington agreement) BUT and this is a big butt, they are selling to the Bank for International Settlements,,,,who only is allowed to sell to other CB's, as far as we know this Gold doesn't enter the open Gold market directly.

BOE and other assorted CB's may be selling an additional 200 to 400 tonnes per year into the Gold markets.(Actual released figures vary year to year.)

The annual consumption of Gold is somewhere around 4000 tonnes annually, of which 80% is supposed to be jewellry, which comes out to 3200 tonnes.

Mine production is around 2500 tonnes worldwide.
So if we add 2500 plus 400 (CB's) plus 400?? scrap and melt we still come up over 500 tonnes per year short.

Where is this extra Gold coming from?
Well, a poster and author named David G. along with another poster Sir ORO have a theory that there is much more Gold floating around than officials will admit.
This Gold is left from WW 2 and because someone may have a claim to it, it stays hidden.

Another poster named Elwood did some research on Gold leaving the U.S.
It seems recently(the last year) more Gold has been leaving the U.S. than is being mined in the U.S. One reason for this though could be,much foreign Gold is still stored in the U.S. for safe-keeping, since the time of the 2nd WW.

In summary, and this is an opinion only, the Rothschilds may be the only ones worldwide who know the actual inside facts about Gold.....Thanks for Reading...beesting.


Black Blade (11/20/00; 23:29:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 41888)
RE: Journeyman - Environment and Oil
Journeyman,

Interesting read on the environmental front. I had been in involved in academic studies of paleo-climates during the Oligocene to Holocene Epochs. I have come the conclusion that the issue of Man induced global warming is nothing more than a Chicken Little scare tactic for political purposes. The world has gone through numerous episodes of Global Warming long before the arrival of man. Man seems to hold a mighty high opinion of himself if he believes that he has that much of an impact on the global environment. I have worked with other researchers and some of the taxpayer-sponsored research is truly bizarre. One acquaintance was doing research on Bovine Flatulence as a contributor to green house gas emissions. Nice project funded partially by the National Science Foundation. At least it was a nice project until during a freak thunderstorm a lightening strike hit the metal windmill were most of the cattle watering. Wish I was there for the Bar-be-Que. Now some research suggests that the Oceans and the world's vegetation is the major contributor to greenhouse gases. I just read another project in the works that puts some of the blame on rice farming. More promising research points to Coronal Mass Ejection (Solar Flares), evidenced by data collection of Sun Spot activity as a cause for Global Warming. Theory is that Out-of-Phase flares intersect the Earth resulting in climatic variance, not to mention upsetting the electrical grid and doing damage to communications satellites. This is a subject that could fill several volumes but I don't feel like belaboring the point.

On the question of the largest contributor of oil to the US, Venezuela is the largest OPEC contributor along with non-OPEC Mexico, though the ME also contribute a large amount.


DaveC (11/20/00; 23:14:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 41887)
European's Ideas On The US
Anecdotal evidence, but the last three nights the wife and I have had dinner with different sets of friends here in Italy. The first two nights with Italians and last night with Brits.

The Italians were stunned when I told them my ideas about how the US is not much different from other countries. Sure, the roads are wider, tthe cars bigger and the biuldings taller, but there is still corruption all around.

They think the US is much different and I will admit that it is still the best place in the world where ordinary people can do extrordinary things (thank Rush for that line). But to me it seems to be heading in the direction of Europe faster than Europe is heading in the direction of the US.

I also like to use the map that has been on the internet showing the county by county vote. My wife, who grew up in SanFran, I in Detroit, likes to say that midwesterners like myself are "more down to earth" people than you will find, generally speaking, on the coasts.

The real funny perspective was from our English friends last night. Patricia, who is very well read, stated that through TV documentaries the English have formed an opinion that the intelligent Americans live on the left and right coasts while the center of the country is filled by the "bible belt." I am not joking. I had to laugh.

I had already forwarded them the link to the map so I referenced that as I straightened them out.

Of course this also leads to the discussion of that often misunderstood term "democracy" and why a completely democratic country is not what the Founding Fathers had in mind. That map has come in handy quite a bit in the last week.

Oh well, just doing my bit to fix the perspectives of those looking in. It's a hell of a lot easier than fixing the perspectives of those already inside.

Ciao.

Peter Asher (11/20/00; 22:57:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 41886)
And also this
(Checked Urbanlegends.com, not there)
Subject:
Fwd: Cases For The Supreme Court Or Is This Still A Free Country?
Date:
Mon, 20 Nov 2000 13:01:48 EST

Cases For The Supreme Court Or Is This Still A Free Country?
Date:
Mon, 20 Nov 2000 09:48:35 -0500

Should police have the power to handcuff and jail people who don't
wear seatbelts?

WASHINGTON, DC -- The Supreme Court is scheduled to hear five
cases this session that involve the power of police to stop, search,
and arrest you for drug and seatbelt violations -- proving that such
"victimless crimes" are now the driving force behind the assault on
our Constitutionally protected liberties.

Starting this week, the U.S. Supreme Court will hear five major cases
to determine whether law enforcement has the right to stop, search,
test, restrain, and arrest people to enforce drug and seatbelt laws.
The cases include:

* Indianapolis vs. Edmond, which will decide whether police can set
up random roadblocks on public streets to question motorists and use
drug-sniffing dogs to inspect their vehicles.

* Ferguson vs. Charleston, which will decide whether hospitals can
secretly test pregnant women for cocaine, and turn the results over
to police.

* Illinois vs. McArthur, which will decide whether police can restrain
people from entering their homes while police are seeking a warrant
to search the premises for drugs.

* Atwater vs. Lago Vista, which will decide whether people can be
handcuffed and hauled off to jail for not wearing a seatbelt.

* Kyllo vs. United States, which will determine whether police can
scan homes with a thermal imaging gun, searching for heat patterns
that may indicate a marijuana-growing operation.






justamereBear (11/20/00; 22:54:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 41885)
John Doe 41836 Jouneyman 41844 Dragonfly and beesting

John Doe
In about 1966 or maybe 1965, I wrote a paper as an english course assignment on the "myth of unbiased reporting". Of course it was not then as corrupted as it is now. And, as well, there are good reporters and bad,(in this case most of the bad ones are simply lazy) just as there are good cops and bad cops, or name whatever field you choose.

And government has almost always let out certain truths with their own unique spin as it felt expedient. "We are marching to the rear in glorious victory" etc. In the matter you refer to, I have only asked people who were formerly under a dictatorship, but my findings are nearly the same as journeymans.

Journeyman
Regarding your point 2. I laughed out loud.

Beesting and dragonfly
You have both been doing some wonderful research type of work. Thank you.

j'Bear



Peter Asher (11/20/00; 22:42:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 41884)
Recieved by E-mail
Subject:
Fwd: High-Level Advisors Assail Gore Arms Deal
Date:
Mon, 20 Nov 2000 13:13:20 EST

High-Level Advisors Assail Gore Arms Deal
Tuesday, October 24, 2000
Eleven former Cabinet secretaries and high-level advisers, from both
Republican and Democratic administrations, have banded together in
opposition to the deals between Al Gore and former Russian Premier
Viktor
Chernomyrdin on Russian arms sales to Iran.
The announcement comes just a day before the Senate Foreign Relations
Committee holds a hearing on Capitol Hill to explore the arms deals.

In the deal, penned in 1995 and reported by The New York Times last
Friday,
Gore agreed that the administration would turn a blind eye to Russia's
violation of U.S. non-proliferation laws in its arms deals to Iran.

The text of their statement, and their names, follow below.

"The following individuals, who include supporters of both Gov. George
W.
Bush and Vice President Al Gore, believe strongly that:

"The President's most important job is safeguarding our nation's
security
and our ability to protect our interests, our citizens and our allies
and
friends. The military balance in regions of vital interest to America
and
her allies - including the Perisan Gulf, which is a critical source of
the
world's energy supplies - is the essential underpinning for a strong
foreign
policy.

"This is why we are deeply disturbed by the agreement made between
Vice
President Gore and then-Russian Premier Chernomyrdin in which America
acquiesced in the sale by Russia to Iran of highly threatening
military
equipment such as modern submarines, fighter planes and ... torpedoes.

"We also find incomprehensible that this agreement was not fully
disclosed
even to those committees of Congress charged with receiving highly
classified briefings - apparently at the request of the Russian
Premier. But
agreement to his request is even more disturbing since the Russian
sales
could have brought about sanctions against Russia in accordance with a
1992
U.S. law sponsored by Sen. John McCain and then Senator Al Gore."


George Shultz, former secretary of state

James Baker III, former secretary of state

Zbigniew Brzezinski, former national security adviser

Frank Carlucci, former secretary of defense and former national
security
adviser

Lawrence Eagleburger, former secretary of state

Henry Kissinger, former secretary of state and former national
security
adviser

Donald Rumsfeld, former secretary of defense

James Schlesinger, former secretary of defense and former CIA director

Brent Scowcroft, former national security adviser

Caspar Weinberger, former secretary of defense

James Woolsey, former CIA director





Buena Fe (11/20/00; 22:26:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 41883)
Weep!!!
http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?ptitle=Top%20Financial%20News&s1=blk&tp=ad_topright_topfin&refer=topfin&T=markets_bfgcgi_content99.ht&s2=blk&bt=ad_position1_topfin&middle=ad_frame2_topfin&s=AOhneLBWqS29yZWFu
11/20 21:30
Korean Won Tumbles to One-Year Low; Oil Importers Buy Dollars
By Simon Grose-Hodge


Seoul, Nov. 21 (Bloomberg) -- The South Korean won fell to its lowest level in a year as oil importers sold the currency and bought U.S. dollars on concern the won may extend its 3.1 percent decline of the past week.

The won dropped for a fifth day, tumbling 1.7 percent to 1,171.05 against the U.S. dollar. The move was its biggest decline in 18 months.

Companies such as SK Corporation, Korea's largest oil refiner, Korean Air Co., the national airline, and LG Chemical Ltd., Korea's largest chemical maker, all need to import oil, paid for in U.S. dollars.

``There's demand for U.S. dollars by oil companies,'' said Jung In-Woo, a foreign exchange trader at ABN Amro Bank in Seoul. Korea imports all its oil and is the world's sixth-biggest oil importer.



elevator guy (11/20/00; 22:22:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 41882)
Here is my un-educated, but possible, scenario for gold.
Ok, I haven't studied this as much as I should, but here is one possible way that the price of gold could soar.

1) The carry trade continues to unwind
2) The Euro comes into fashion for oil trades
3) The USD starts a downward spiral to its equilibrium worth of -.02 (minus 2 cents) (!!!!)(Just kidding!)
4) The price of gold soars to new heights on all markets
5) The dollar surives, beaten and tattered
6) Gold is STILL not used for trading for everyday goods and services.
7) Only wealth obtained and stored in gold or other stable investments before the dollar devaluation is preserved.
8) Wealth made after the slide has reached equilibrium has no more or less value in exchange for goods and services for a given amount toil than it did before the dollar slide, because wage hikes and price hikes eventually balance out. (Any historical data on this?)

So what is different about this scenario from the general consensus?

The USD never really goes away, the country doesn't collapse, the sun keeps shining, and the sky doesn't fall.
Its possible that everything will keep marching on albeit at a slightly slower tempo, and there may be some downward life style adjustments, but we've seen that before, and weathered it out.

Why do we always assume the worst, like some cataclysmic event just HAS to happen?

Look how wrong many of us were about Y2K, the non-event.

Goldsun (11/20/00; 22:10:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 41881)
A Man's Right to Abortion
The doctrine of sexual equality would mandate equal rights for father and mother. Additionally, those areas where government forces fatherly financial support for children should allow fathers the same right as mothers to choose whether this is a convenient time to have a child.
Goldsun

rc (11/20/00; 21:49:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 41880)
Price of gold not due to CBs selling? - Van Eeden
beesting - your post 41788
Sorry I don't buy that.
To say, that the downslide of the gold price is not the result of central bank selling, does not hold water. The CBs are dumping onto the market, every year, something like 1,500 tons of the metal. This amount to 40% of the yearly mining production and this fellow has the gut to say that it is irrelevant? Try to do that with copper or nickel or any other commodities and you face a disaster.
As for the strenght of the dollar, I have a more mundane explanation. With US interest rates higher than anywhere in the Western world, speculators are borrowing foreign currency, such as the Euro at 5% to buy US dollars, shorting that money in the process. They invest the proceed in US money market or corporate bonds at 7.5%, pay back the weakened Euro at a profit and pocket 2.5% on their US investment. Not that bad after all.
All comments are welcome.

Hipplebeck (11/20/00; 21:39:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 41879)
gold flow
I have absolutely no doubt that there is a gold flow going on right now. These are tense times, and those who want to stabilize the gold price at a low level are spending some gold. The gold is flowing, don't doubt it. The bankers who know what real money is are still dealing in real money. The gold is flowing from the hands that are running a deficit into the hands that are running a surplus. Just because we don't have "transparency", doesn't mean it ain't goin on
On a related subject, remember that the surplus that The US government is projecting is based on the same bullshit that was projecting future computer sales based on the sales just before Y2K. Let's not forget that everyone bought new equipment in preparation for Y2K between 1995 and 1999, and these are the numbers from which future projections were made. The "surplus" is a sham.

beesting (11/20/00; 21:29:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 41878)
Hi Sir Cavan Man!
No Kilt tonight, we had about 4 inches of snow a few days ago but it's all melted now.

<What do I think of Silver?>

I do collect a small amount of silver coins.
I have some of the U.S.Silver Eagle series, not too much.
I also have a few 1889 Morgan Silver dollars which,dispite Silver falling in dollar price have gained about 50% in dollars, over the last 4 years.(numismatic value)
With numismatic Gold and Silver coins you can get what I call a double play.....They can gain in value as collectors items and gain if the POG or POS goes way up.
Thanks for asking....Those in the Know are Buying Gold.....beesting.

Midas Mulligan (11/20/00; 21:00:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 41877)
Cavan Man
I'll pretend your not a satyr and thus you're sincere and say that reality is rigid and like an Objectivist and Objectivism and gold money it doesnt compromise, unlike religious people and paperbugs who constantly compromise in the name of Jesus, Marx and their "higher elite" feelings (Superego's) for God and Community etc... ad nauseum against rigid reality and rigid money called gold. So if youre feeling anti-rigid or spiritually limp get you some viagra for your soul by which I mean Objectivist ideology in addition to gold money.

Al Fulchino (11/20/00; 20:58:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 41876)
Hi again.
First things first. Thanks to those who responded to my post some week's back. You responded because what is in me is in you. You are responsible men and women, who in your heart of hearts yearn for truth and freedom.
Second. I apologize for my lack of editing abilities and that I make you all suffer through my posts because of it.
_________
My post.

There is no doubt in my mind, that there are certain principles that exist for us all to witness. Mathematicians use slide rules that can measure them. Chemists have litmus paper that can affirm their presence. Seafarers have their compass. If we follow them, we can calculate. We can determine contents. And find our way. If we are humble enough to realize that we cannot invent principles we can profit, learn and be guided in life. And also be inspired by their awesome beauty if we have little in the way of our own ego. This inspiration is actually love and respect.

In our life, we are witnesses to the constant battle of whether people, ourselves, our family friends and the country and world, shall utilize these principles. Or avoid<deny> them. The battle is between right and wrong, bright ideas and not so bright ideas (right ET?), and good and evil. Principles come from somewhere. A benevolent Father in heaven perhaps. Maybe just an orderly progression of evolution. Some of you know what I believe. And the opposite of this has to be confusion. Where does this come from? Perhaps we simply exist in a state of random development. In control of nothing, we plod along hoping for a good day to come our way. Sounds a bit depressing doesn't it? But truly these are the two opposites. Principles and the lack of them which encompass confusion in our lives and that of events. Where this comes from I will leave up for your thoughts.

In the universe we walk. We gaze outwards from our intellect and perhaps some of us think we gaze outwards from our souls. We take note. We absorb and ponder what we witness. Can we be just animal? One thing separates us. We can make a choices based on information that is intuitive. We can be a conduit. We can tell our hand to take something in a store that we did not pay for. We can hold it back. Why? Certainly if you put a hamburger in front of my dog, he will eat it. If you tell him it was stolen, will he be able to tell the difference? To make a choice? Some out there will debate me on this. That animals have souls etc. I am not interested in them. They are lost and to debate them is pointless. They have lost their way and need to be drugged with their drug of choice, cigarettes, drink, drugs medicine, lottery tickets even books. But why have they? Why have so many among us chosen to avoid the principles that they see? Why have they made up fantasies? Created their own realities? Such as animals are like us. Or there is extra-terrestrial life. Re-incarnation. And we come back again and again after we die. Seems funny doesn't it? We laugh at some of the things that people do. We laugh because it can be so outrageous
But these are so obvious. How does it all start? Are there various degrees in between this adherence to principles and confusion?
Now we are digging deeper. So take a moment from your trail walk and sit with me a moment. Let us stop and see what we can witness, if we choose to be impartial. If we choose to be humble enough to not let ourselves think we can ever re invent the wheel. A tool that was never really invented at all. Afterall, didn't the first person that possessed a wheel really just utilize raw materials in a way that supported the principle of a wheel? He was just a gatherer of creation who saw. Who saw truth on earth and spoke of what he saw, which he translated.

So, let us witness. This is a gold forum and gold as well as firearms are often talked about. George Washington said a few curious things about firearms. Listen for yourself. Afterall, you have your own mind. You yourself are a conduit. You yourself can adhere or not to principles if you choose. Listen to what he believed.

"Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself."

" They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence. The church, the
plow, the prairie wagon and citizen's firearms are indelibly related."

"From the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurrences, and tendencies
prove that to insure peace, security, and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable."


Now, my friends, I ask you. Didn't George Washington live and endure in a day where they had political thought and consciousness? We have our own, why would that generation be any different? Did the fact that men wore knickers and wigs discredit them? <smile> Doubtful to you and I. Tell me if you will why you think his countrymen agreed with these and many other thoughts of his. Yet we today encounter so many that would not recognize his beliefs. Why? What is different about a person who sees what George Washington sees and one who disagrees with him? What is different about a person who believes in honest money and one who doesn't or at best is ignorant of what it even is? Same with abortion since that has reared its head here.

I predict that, when some of you read President Washington's words above, you gazed deeply. Time stood still for a moment. Why? Can it be that you recognize something? Can it be that your heart is like his heart? Can it be that you both recognized what the man, who put that first wheel together, realized? Can it be that you DO see that one plus one IS two? And Hillary Clinton and all the spoken word in the world against what you see will not shake you from your beliefs? Can it be that the political thought of today is no longer what it once was? And that you are rapidly becoming in the minority? What do you see? You answer for yourself. Can principle really be finding a home in fewer and fewer hearts?

Washington went on to say:
"Every corner of this land knows firearms and more than 99.99% of them by their silence indicate they are in safe and hands."

Then he was in the majority. Today, you can be labeled on the fringe.
He also said:
" The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference – they deserve a place of honor with all that is good."

What was this man smoking! All the Bill's and Hillary's and Al Gore's in the world can speak as the Scribes and Pharisees as far as I am concerned. Do you think they would recognize Washington's words as his own or as some right wing fringe element? Did you notice that he mentioned good and evil? Did he know and understand that evil and good need a conduit? Why would he need to even speak these words? I suspect strongly that he could see as many of you can see.
Circumstance called on a man who could see with clarity. Do any of you ever hear Circumstance calling upon you? Are you a conduit? Are you void? What passes through your conduit today? What do you let pass in front of you? Do you bar the door at what evil Washington spoke of?

Lastly, I offer more of Washington:

" When firearms go, all goes – we need them every hour."

What do you need? Friends? The love of another? Money? Social security? A safety net? No. What you search for is principle. Look no further than within. Within yourself, within a rock, within water and air around you. It is their for all who search. Be still and know…… BE still and know all that needs to be known.


Midas Mulligan (11/20/00; 20:50:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 41875)
And Ayn Rand was right, religion is simply a psychological weakness
Moat goldbugs seem to using a love of gold as a rationalizations for feeling imperfect.

Yellow Jacket (11/20/00; 20:49:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 41874)
Gold and the PPT
We know about the PPT.The plunge protection team monitors the stock markets,and if the selloff gets to be too much,they jump in and buy up futures(with public funds)to rescue the market.Well,they also monitor the Gold market.Here they become The Plunge Preservation Team.When gold starts to move higher,the PPT orders short futures,through investment banks like Goldman Sachs,on comex.Thus public funds are used to keep gold down.Im sure the investment bank gets a guarantee that if gold explodes,then their shorts would be covered(by liquidating longs or any other means).

This is just my humble opinion.

Midas Mulligan (11/20/00; 20:47:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 41873)
To Cavan Man and any other satyrs in this world let me just say,......
Think Twice! if you think Ayn Rand and Atlas Shrugged are dead. That, by the way, is the title of a famous short story she wrote.

Cavan Man (11/20/00; 20:42:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 41872)
Cavan man 41869
Sorry. That is to say; The Divine liturgy of John (Saint) Chrysostom.

Journeyman (11/20/00; 20:41:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 41871)
The game seems to be afoot! @ALL
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nb20001120a2.htm

Dragon fly's Japanese Times link, verifying that Venezuela is joining Iraq in seeking to use the euro (Venezula is the main foreign supplier of US oil -- right Black Blade??) and speculating that other countries will soon do the same is exactly what many posters, and most specifically TG, have been saying would happen as the dollar reaches the end of it's time line. Additonally in same article the author mentions "currency risks" in using the dollar, particularly because of the "current account deficit" which we know as the father of Big-Float. (The mother was Nixon closing the gold window.)

Further, if the Rothchilds indeed are attempting to stop gold leasing by the CBs(remember they're probably the premiere gold family in the world -- and not without a certain amount of influence), something that they must know would probably collapse the paper-gold markets and start the gold melt-up. This would scream "inflation" to all those "experts" who have been pointing to gold's falling price (lately only in dollars) as proof there ISN'T any inflation.

The Rothschilds definitely qualify as members of TPTB. As far as the articles and sources (like the Japanese Times article) expressly reporting switches from dollars to euros and other commentary and articles -- many others -- suggesting the dollar is possibly in danger because of the presidential deadlock, falling stockmarkets, lower earnings being reported, almost anything, it seems to me the move to bring the dollar down is, as TG has said it was -- and staked his reputation here on the forum -- is indeed afoot.

What do you think?

Gold while you still can.

Regards,
Journeyman


Midas Mulligan (11/20/00; 20:40:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 41870)
So a final distillation... All you need to have ever known
The mind that takes mediocrity seriously and then acts to think and produce is the source of all evil. The way to eradicate this evil is to simply stop the mind. The way you do that is to take mediocrity to the extreme which means statism to the extreme because it will force the mind to stop and seek safe haven in gold. Once that happens then mediocrity and the dollar will fall without support from the mind and perfection and gold will rise without the mind acting against it anymore. So you have to use mediocrity and statism to get rid of mediocrity and statism by using it to force the mind that supports it, "Atlas" to "shrug" or quit supporting the state and dollar and instead support freedom and gold. The thinkers are oblivious to reason because they've been brainshwashed subconsciously by statist ideology reinforced by their thinking and producing for mediocrity/dollars and against perfection/gold. So I support mediocrity to stop the mind from supporting it. It forces Atlas to shrug.

Cavan Man (11/20/00; 20:40:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 41869)
Oh, and Midas....
Almost everyone has a take on the "final word' and "everything you need to know". Take Satchel Paige's "Masters Maxims". You been eating any fried foods today? For a final word beginning every week, try the Litury of John Chrysostum. Now, that is worth reading! Good luck!

Cavan Man (11/20/00; 20:35:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 41868)
Midas Mulligan
Give it a break would 'ya pal. All that rigid ideology will give you an ulcer. Atlas Shrugged is a great read but there are a million volumes plus in the libraries of the world just sitting there waiting to be picked up. Why not diversify?

Any thoughts directly related to gold? Ayn Rand is dead and gone. What is happening right now!

Cavan Man (11/20/00; 20:28:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 41867)
beesting
Thanks for the link. What do you think of silver? I am saving in small increments (end of month) in one ounce (small purchases) coins; preferably Maple Leafs when I can get them.

Midas Mulligan (11/20/00; 20:24:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 41866)
The Final Word, all you need to know about life
Statists are mediocrities who stop/freeze their minds and hearts/souls like Jesus/Marx in order to drain everyone else mentally, spiritually and monetarily. They are vampires and cannibals against human life though they look mushy and harmless. James Taggart in Atlas Shrugged is the perfect example. I reverse the drain by stopping my mind and heart and money(gold) like John Galt and thus turn the tables on them collecting back what's been taken and stored by the collectivists. Read Atlas Shrugged for further explanation. Aristotle/Ayn Rand/John Galt, principled people over Plato/Kant/Jesus and pragmatic people.

Cavan Man (11/20/00; 20:19:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 41865)
CB2 41841
Lest we forget Argentina, the latest chapter with the IMF cast of supporting characters has not been written. IMHO, a crisis there still looms.

Are we back on track yet? Kind regards from across "Big Muddy".....CM

Cavan Man (11/20/00; 20:10:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 41864)
USAGOLD
Teriffic commentary today MK. If you are not already a customer, the availability of this commentary is well worth the exchange of one wealth denominating medium for another (no pun).

Midas Mulligan (11/20/00; 19:58:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 41863)
Remember it;s all a paper tiger show against perfection and thus gold
Mushy subconsciously malicious mediocrities were able to use God and Jesus and Community and Marx as rationalizations to enslave the mind to produce a show for dollars and nothing against gold and everything called life. The only way to end the show is to make the thinkers and producers sensitive to the nature of mediocrity, the dollar vs perfection and gold. Get them to use the leverage of John Galt and gold against Jesus/Marx and the dollar to overthrow mediocrity. Mediocrity, and all those enslaved to it (everybody except the thinkers/producers) are blind to gold by their very nature. They sold their souls short and thus their money short to so they are blind to normal life and normal money which is gold. It's all explained by Ayn Rand in Atlas Shrugged. Read it and then send a copy to any "Atlas", or thinker/producer, who isn't yet on strike against mediocrity/pragmatism and the dollar for perfection/principle and gold and tell them learn from the mistake of Hank Rearden and the rest of the "scabs"

Cavan Man (11/20/00; 19:52:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 41862)
Cavan Man Original Thought (Yes; I occasionally get one.)
RE: Another/FOA
There has been so much wealth created these last thirty years or so and further, so much of this wealth exists as "paper"; another (no pun) means of safely denominating this wealth so that it lasts is needed. That "means" must be gold. What remains to be used? The big boys and girls know this fact. Gold must be used so it must be freed. Paper will still be the coin of the realm but another medium is needed to protect wealth for the wealthy. Gold can be owned free and clear. One need not assume a debt (like real estate) to invest in a hard asset. Those who buy now are benefitting from the rules of the old game. The new rules are taking shape albeit slowly. What a great game if one plays to win!

Midas Mulligan (11/20/00; 19:43:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 41861)
Stock Market just a death chasing paper chase
Our world is run by paper chasing, man hating, power lusting, mind ruling mediocrities, or "wardens" like James Taggart in Atlas Shrugged. They use God and Community as rationalizations to control the thinkers and producers and to destroy the independents/ego's. Their statist cannibalism has driven down the price of gold and the spirit of perfection/idealism beneath a sea of irrationalism represented by superego bonds and id stocks. So God and Community are the rationalizations used as leverage to control the mind and crush the human spirit by means of government force. The mushy looking mediocrities and the syrupy looking collectivists are superego's and id's worshipping nothing in order to justify destroying everything. The ego is the victim and the mind is the unknowing power source behind the whole show. The mind on strike against mediocrity and collectivism, superego/id, and for perfection and individualism/ego is against the dollar because it's mediocre and for gold because it's perfect. It is the absolute mind and ego.

Cavan Man (11/20/00; 19:42:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 41860)
beesting
Are you wearing your kilt tonight? Need a union suit here!

Cavan Man (11/20/00; 19:40:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 41859)
Every Thirty Years Or So....
We seem to experience varying degrees of significant turmoil(s):

2000-?
1970-Inflation/Recession
1940-WWII
1910-WWI
1880-?? Wasn't there a deep recession and a couple of "panics" during this period (after the "Crime of 1873")
1850-Missouri Compromise and march towards Civil War
1820-?
1790-? French Revolution?
1760- Events leading up to the American Revolution

Can anyone help me fill in the blanks?

Cavan Man (11/20/00; 19:33:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 41858)
Why don't the Japanese (citizens) buy gold?
Does anyone have any thoughts on this question? They may have been inculcated with Americanisms but, at the end of the day, they are also Asians with strong cultural ties to the metal yes? I am not an expert on Asian cultures so please forgive my consideration of Japanese as, "Asians".

beesting (11/20/00; 19:23:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 41857)
Good Find Sir Yellow Jacket and Caven Man....here is the link.
http://www.crbindex.com/news/story2203.html
And, just below that from the same link a Rothschild representitive 2nds the motion:

<<OF INTEREST:

Central banks should stop lending gold says Rothschild's Guy
London--Nov. 20--Central Banks should follow the example of the U.S. Federal Reserve, Bank of Japan and European Central Banks and stop lending their gold, said Robert Guy, non-executive director of NM Rothschild & Sons. With stability now restored to the market after the 1999 Washington Accord limiting gold sales, there is now a case for liquidity provided by lending tobe reduced, he said.
( Story .20333 )>>

Comment:
Could this be a REAL turning point? Please read the full stories!....beesting.

elevator guy (11/20/00; 19:10:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 41856)
@auspec
Shaftmaster! Hmm...

Now I like that!! (smile)

Thanks!

elevator guy (11/20/00; 19:09:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 41855)
@Shifty
Your more than welcome for the Dancing Bush link.

While my daughter and I were looking at it, I just about busted up!! Its so ridiculous!!

But catchy, too. Makes me wanna dance, and I dont even dance. Always time to learn new things, I guess.

Cavan Man (11/20/00; 18:55:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 41854)
Hello Trail Guide
Is there any correlation between the announcement regarding gold leasing coming out of Venezuela and the fact that Hugo Chavez is a key OPEC personage? Thanks and hope you and yours are well Sir.

Cavan Man (11/20/00; 18:53:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 41853)
Hello Aristotle
Have you forsaken this venue for more golden climes? Hope not and hope you are well. Sincerely.....CM

Cavan Man (11/20/00; 18:52:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 41852)
Nikkei, Taiwan, Korea
Nikkei looking at 14K and at twenty month low. Taiwan and Korea----don't go there. What's up in Asia and how will POG be affected?

Cavan Man (11/20/00; 18:48:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 41851)
CB2
All the world burns while we fiddle in Florida. Does anyone read beyond the front page?

Cavan Man (11/20/00; 18:47:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 41850)
Yellow Jacket 41848
I draw your attention to this most astute observation. Thank you for posting it as I was considering same. I bet it is no coincidence that both this gentleman and the OPEC "President" (not sure what his title is) are both from VENEZUELA!!!!!!

Could we discuss this topic please as it is directly related to gold?

Journeyman (11/20/00; 18:20:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 41849)
Environmentalism & paranoia @Galearis

Hi again Galearis,

Call me paranoid -- but just because I am doesn't mean they're not out to get me!! Unfortunately for the times we live in (or fortunately for my shrink) no one, not even TC knows exactly who I am or where to reach me. Afraid I'm going to have to keep it that way.

As far as honest academia, at least here in USA, (and as Karl Popper was fond of pointing out) academics can only observe what they're funded to observe -- and while much of the money for studies is provided by corporations, there's a big chunk that comes from the globalists, in particular the contingent teethed in The Club of Rome, who have a pre-conceived idea we must drastically reduce world population.

Of course they COULD be right -- but they could be wrong too. An economist a few years ago bet them their projections about basic raw materials availability (which aren't easily renewable) and projected prices were wrong. They took his bet and lost, and wouldn't re-up the bet.

I find myself at odds with these folks at the Club of Rome because, as one commentator quipped, "The difference between the Club of Rome and Libertarians is that one group regards people as an asset, the other as pollution."

As far as bandwidth, so far at least, no one seems to be complaining. Hey all you folks out there, if you're not liking this thread, just tell us so and Galearis and I we'll cease and desist.

So, for the time being at least Galearis, have at me!

Regards,
Journeyman


Yellow Jacket (11/20/00; 18:12:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 41848)
An end to the gold carry trade ????
Vice President of international operations of Venezuela's Central Bank wants to reduce C B lending of gold.He suggested other CB's form a pact to reduce gold lending to 'restore the value of gold'

CoBra(too) (11/20/00; 17:03:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 41847)
At least - ANOTHER topic - Please!
... As most of the world doesn't give a "chad", pregnant, virgin, dimple, or simple - double or butter- fly ... or just simply unaccountable for the contenders of the other half of the silent majority, despising the blatant rape of their country and constitution! - I feel free to voice above remarks - So should you - cb2

Au-some (11/20/00; 16:50:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 41846)
(No Subject)
I spotted this headline while standing in line at the grocery checkout counter:"Woman gives birth to six pound, seven ounce liver!" The attending physician, Doc Mallard, says the birthing of body parts is not all that unusual. "Some years back," says the Doc, "I helped in the delivery of a bouncing baby sphincter. The sphincter lived, grew to maturity and now holds high political office. Did you know that Kidney Huston started out life as a body part?" asked the Doc. "And of course there's Dick Nixon, Henry Hide, Colon Bowel and Jerry Ball - the ex-Viking nose tackle. That's right, Jerry Ball started out as a nose!"
Wait till my wife Iris hears this.

John Doe (11/20/00; 16:25:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 41845)
@Journeyman
Thanks for the anecdotal accounts. Apparently, we in America have a way to go before the blinders come off, if ever.

Journeyman (11/20/00; 16:14:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 41844)
Effective propaganda @John Doe, ALL

"I wonder, at what point did the average Russian conclude that nearly all political and economic
"news" reported by Tass and Pravda was just so much garbage? Did it happen one person at a time
over many years, or was it a sudden, overnight realization? What was the terminal clue for the
average Russian that it was all just a "pack of lies"? Or did it ever happen at all, and only the ultimate
dissolution of the USSR itself discredited the prior pronouncements of the established media organs?" -John Doe msg#: 41832)

Two points on the line:

POINT 1: I spent a great deal of time in Poland and among Polish ex-patriates. I became aware of what was to me, a very curious anomaly: Most of my Polish friends and acquaintences, as I began to ask them all, sort of told me the same thing, almost like it was a catechism: ~"I guess someone somewhere must believe the propaganda, but I don't know anyone that does. Maybe someone who lives out in the country-side and never talks to anyone."

POINT 2: A friend of mine about 15 years ago had a conversation with a Russian Phd on a transcontinental flight. He made some comment to the effect that Russia should be jealous of how well America used it's press for propaganda purposes. My friend objected, replying, "We don't have propaganda, we have a free press!" The Russian PhD replied, "See, you believe that. That's why it works so well."

Regards,
Journeyman


Galearis (11/20/00; 16:11:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 41843)
@Journeyman
Environmental elemental Libertarianism
Some interesting perspectives and several I have heard before. An example or two you describe actually interface exactly with my area of ecological interest and expertise - at the hands-on level of experience. Suffice it to say that there is probably a font of disinformation out there (although you can guess which side springs forth with the most fertile shenanigans), but the "balance" of nonsense is very much not on the level (smile) Honest academia is hard to dispute usually. However, corporations do tend to buy some of this and therein comes the source of bias. Not to mention a degradation of attitude by the public. Hint: you should have chosen some better examples to illustrate your points.

Please use my email address in an earlier post today. There is much to say about your positions, and my comments would not be a kindness to band-width on this forum.

I promise not to send you a bug (smile)

Regards,

G.

Journeyman (11/20/00; 15:34:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 41842)
Environmentalism in context @Galearis, ALL

Hi again Galearis!

"My apologies are extended to you, if you had occasion to opinion
to yourself any discourtesy by neglect on my part." -Galearis

Thanx for your consideration. I almost never take personal
offense at anything any more.

Something in human nature or the way our brains work -- or
something -- makes us believe that someone somewhere knows
exactly what's going on everywhere and what the outcome will be.
The deists among us usually assign this function to God.

Be that as it may, we _humans_ always find ourselves with less
than complete information and always in the dark as to the
ultimate outcome of everything, though as individuals and
particularly as ideological groups, we regularly convince
ourselves that we do indeed know exactly what's going on and
exactly what the outcome will be.

And, unfortunately AFTER THE FACT, it turns out some of us have
sometimes been correct in our predictions. But we never, never,
NEVER know this BEFORE THE FACT. Here's where I usually quote
Yogi and Mises.

This is subtle but extremely important. Usually where there is a
conviction that X will happen, there is also a conviction X
_won't_ happen. You can see the embodyment of this in the
opposing sides of futures contracts. That is, both sides are so
sure they're right, they're willing to bet their money on their
predictions.

Belief and predictions based on them are endemic. Religions,
politics, economics, science, and just about anything else are
all beset by predictions based on strong belief. So while there
are strong convictions that, say, the ozone holes are a disaster
and global warming is in our future, there are equally strong
convictions to the contrary.

The following few paragraphs aren't directly essential to the
main line of what I'm trying to say here, but _are_ indirectly
essential to the context of evaluating current environmental
claims.

Complicating matters, information from the environmental movement
has been discredited similarly to the info coming out of the Gore
camp has been discredited as objective because it has an obvious
goal or agenda other than revealing the truth. I would suggest,
in fact, that when the truth conflicts with the goal or agenda,
truth will almost certainly always be the victim.

Environmental info has been impeached more than once: Moe Udall,
Jimmy Carter's Interior Sec. was my first "Gotcha!." He endorsed
Sears phosphate free laundry detergent as the cause for
eutrophication of America's lakes. I immediately switched to
phosphate free detergent. And it made my skin itch so badly I
had to run the wash through an extra rinse cycle. (I suspect the
increase in skin cancer may be partially related to this effect,
though have never seen anything specifically proving this.)
Turns out the science was less than rigorous, and in fact it was
later discovered that the cause was nitrates from agricultural
run-off due to over-fertilizing. I'll come back to this incident
in a moment because it illustrates several points.

Oil spills are another environmental "disaster" that is regularly
used in less than a candid manner. It's clear that while more
frequent than in the "natural" environment, they are no more
damaging than an equivalent natural oil seepage, one of which in
Titusville, led to the first commercial oil well -- not to
mention the theme-song of The Beverly Hillbillies. As reported
in Science News, a year after the massive Iraqi oil revenge in
the Gulf, researchers could find few signs anything had happened.

Another example is so-called "acid rain" which persists as urban
myth despite the largest most expensive scientific study to date,
referreed by none other than Paul Erlich himself. The
conclusion, after two (or was it five) years of study was that
acid rain, if it exists at all, is a rare and attenuated
phenomenon. (This isn't to say other problems from coal burning
power plants don't exist, just that "acid rain" isn't one of
them.)

Subsequent research suggests, for example, that the acidification
of the Adirondack lakes is caused by rain water passing through
the decomposing pine needles from the trees now surrounding them.
The previous stands of pines were logged out early in the
century, allowing the lakes to reach a more neutral ph, at which
point what was thought to be "base line" data was recorded, but
once the trees regrew, what was actually the more "normal"
acidity returned.

At any rate, let's just say that environmental claims must be
closely examined for veracity now, just as any other claims which
have taken on political content.

I'm certainly not claiming there are no environmental issues
worthy of concern, just that you have to be careful not to be
taken in by ones that are less than strictly honest.

Back to the main line of argument. Moe Udall and the phosphate-
free detergent fiasco still haunt us. Despite the fact that
subsequent science proved phosphates in detergents weren't the
problem, we're still stuck with phosphate free detergents --
which itch and require a second rinse -- which wastes water and
creates a greater load for our sewage treatment plants.

But more important are the processes by which we imperfect humans
with incomplete information and less than perfect predictions are
forced to deal with the "real world." Moe Udall believed the
science. So did the scientists.

The free-market picked up on both mistakes and those people you
think aren't competent to be environmentally conscious bought
lots of the detergent. The willingness of people to "act and buy
green" isn't an isolated case: Just recently the phasing-out of
freon (because of concern over the ozone hole and computer
generated models suggesting these holes are caused by freon and
other chloro-flouro carbons released into the troposphere)
happened a full two years was it? before required by the Buenos
Aires accords. (And use of computer models for anything is
problematic -- but that's a whole nother story.)

The understanding of environmental problems, then, even by what I
have a tendancy to call in my present level of enlightenment,
"elitist" scientists, is ALSO less than perfect, and as you would
expect from the process (as opposed to the product) of science,
constantly changing, and hopefully, improved.

The process of science, you may recognize, is an example of the
"thesis -- anti-thesis -- syn-thesis" dialectic, a main process
that powers the evolution of knowledge and understanding. This
is a continual process. Markets also closely mimick the
dialectic as people design and produce a product, try to sell it
and redesign it in response to others' buying proclivities.
Markets are process, though most supply-siders don't really like
that.

Markets, like knowledge, have been and are evolving. Things like
air polution, things people don't initially pay any attention to,
begin entering the market process inherently as "externalities."
My mother was a "water baby" -- she could swim with her arms and
legs chained -- and used to get out of the river running through
our coal town covered in coal dust. People _initially_ just
assumed this was natural.

Gradually these externalities get built into the market process.
One of the quickest ways is through class action damage suits.
Once people recognize they are being damaged and profit hungry --
or altruistic (See the movie A Civil Action) -- lawyers can win a
case before a jury, the message goes quickly out to businesses,
and they re-form their operations to avoid similar hits to their
bottom line. To repeat: It wasn't Nader and regulation that
caused Ford to move the Pinto gas tank -- though goodness, they
tried for years -- it was a successful law suit.

Please note, this path doesn't require any special knowledge by
the population at large, only by experts who can educate and
convince a majority on a civil jury that some damage is being
done and should be recompensed. That's why this should be
absolutely the first approach for any environmental group
because, compared to the alternatives it is quick, effective, and
causes the least disruption.

The problem is, like most people these days, environmentalists
mistakenly believe the government will be more effective. But
I've already gone into why this just isn't so --- EVER. Markets
evolve quickly in response to constant pressure from buyers
looking for bargains plus competition. Governments, at best,
freeze a given solution as it was when some piece of legislation
(always a compromise including the considerations of big business
since they're the ones who can afford the most and best lobbists)
was passed. At worst, governments are the worst
environmentalists as study after study shows. A legislative
solution is often worse than no solution at all.

And as far as being reactive -- with imperfect information and
uncertain outcomes to predictions, to some degree this is
unavoidable -- unless we can get a Second Coming to manage our
environmental affairs. Barring this, enterprising lawyers
finding damaged groups and winning settlements will solve budding
environmental problems, no how you define "environmental
problems," faster than any other approach known to man.

As far as fighting potential environmental problems _before_ they
can be proven even to the majority of a jury, opens the door to
unimaginable tyranny. Already, the newly imposed-from-above
environmental standards means that the EPA should cite Africa for
polluting Florida during certain periods when prevailing winds
deliver particulates from the Sahara. (Not kidding -- Science
News report). Imagine what a new budding Hitler or Stalin could
do with a tradition that allows things like this.

Indeed, some of the dire environmental predictions that are being
made today will probably come to pass. Others won't. You're
sure you're right, I'm sure I am. Which ones do we spend our
limited time, energy and money on to be "pro-active?" Remember,
we can never, never, never know for sure before the fact which
prediction is correct. Personally, I'm most worried about a
meteorite impact. Do we use government force to make everyone go
along?

Another good libertarian solution is to buy it. Worried about
the giant redwoods? Put together a rock-concert, lottery, etc.
raise the money, and buy it. There is already a group buying
large tracts of South American rain forest to protect it from
settlers encouraged by the Brazilian government, as suggested by
the IMF (International Monetary Fund.) To heck with the rain
forest; the settlers will increase Brazillian government income
and help them pay IMF, ah, Western banks.

Perhaps you could give me a few examples of the more intractable
environmental problems out there and how you would deal with
them?

Those sheeple we all tend to underestimate are quite ready to
make "green decisions." Don't squander their fervor and good
will by enlisting them in counter productive or uneconomic
solutions to less than critical (or in some cases non-existent)
problems.

One final observation on environmental effects: As per msg#:
41061 Nov. 10, 2000, world population is leveling off, and in
many countries, especially the advanced countries, going into
decline. Thus to the extent that increasing population causes
environmental problems, this pressure may be abating.

Regards,
Journeyman

P.S. Child poverty, as perverse as this may seem, is exacerbated
by "redistribution," not as it's presented, but as it's actually
practiced. My first hint of this counter-intuitive effect came
from business guru Peter Drucker:

"The least egalitarian countries are those that have tried
hardest to redistribute income: the Soviet Union; the United
States; Great Britain." -Peter F. Drucker, _Post-Capitalist
Society_, (New York: HarperBusiness 1993), p. 164.

This is, of course, closely related to "capture theory" and
"clique selfishness" as posted previously.


CoBra(too) (11/20/00; 14:58:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 41841)
While the US is debating the outcome of the "Elections",
of their new President in court - while only today-

* The Peruvian President of 10 years, Fujimori defected to his home country - leaving his "Peru" open to any coup.
* Palestinians blew up a school bus.
* Israel is "retaliating" by air attacks ...
* China is purring, before stirring -
* Taiwan as its pawn

* And other such things (galore? unfair!)

* It STINGS!

And the world, we've known is succumbing to the new
ethics of the new economy is rapidly, therefor?, running out of ready credit - already misallocated to the tune of trillions of paper $'s, as some want more than Bush or Gore.

... Though please be so kind, as to tell what's behind - democracy, or is it a kind of a republic of aristocracy, or atrocity, or benign constitutional beaurocracy?

Atrocity - squirms the worm - cb2

dragonfly (11/20/00; 14:30:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 41840)
The Real Price of the Cheap Euro
http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/en/2000/10/01leader


Hello. I think this article linked above is worth reading. It is short and to the point. It reminds me of things that Trail Guide has been saying.

Regards,
dragonfly

CoBra(too) (11/20/00; 14:15:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 41839)
Global Financial Markets in Turmoil?
... and probably only the overture of the coming disaster - only to be followed by years of severe bear markets, working off the excesses of the titanic financial bubble of all times.
Recession, stagnation, stagflation and worse may now only be averted by extreme liquifaction of the system - already extended to the extreme - ... and no one's left to buy the dips - not even on credit, a facility not being available - after tomorrow, when-ever tomorrow comes.

Since your timing is as substantive as mine - go for liquidity - gold! - I beg u - cb2


wolavka (11/20/00; 13:40:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 41838)
Turkey is cooked
Dollar finished wave up since 11-3. ill liquid mkts for holiday may keep in short range.

Midas Mulligan (11/20/00; 13:35:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 41837)
The Battle of Life.. good vs evil
The thinkers are the root of all good and evil. They think into the resistance of a black-minded hole of mediocrity which drains their mind and money to a black-hearted sea of collectivism. Then then pretentious mediocrities and collectivists use that energy and money to put on a show of intimidation and force against the thinkers and independents. It's all a subconscious, or philosophical, war. The statist mediocrities are subconsciously seething envy ridden mind haters though they appear pathetically mushy. The collectivists are subconsciously seething haters of the independents, the "good for being good" though they appear syrupy and soft. The thinkers are subconsciously reactive and resistant to the mediocrities and guiltily submissive to the collectivists and oblivious to the independents who simply live to somehow survive the subconscious pragmatic civil war against them. The solution to end the war is for the thinkers to stop taking mediocrity and collectivism seriously and to then shrug, or let the mgo. "Atlas Shrugged", putting their minds on strike and their money in gold. But to get them to do that you have to get rid of their subconscious guilt which makes them supporters of collectivism and mediocrity at their own expense and the expense of independents. I, as leader of the minds on strike, have the ability to reverse the mediocrities black minded drain of the brain to static energy for the black hearted collectivists by using my gold mind to drain the static of collectivist to back to the minds, but only the minds on strike.

John Doe (11/20/00; 13:34:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 41836)
@justamereBear
Somewhere between JFK and Watergate, and my initial impression only becomes more crystallized as time passes and events transpire. How about you? Funny, one rarely sees material written about this subject. Anyone on this thread live under Mao, Hitler, or another Totalitarian regime? Same question...

SteveH (11/20/00; 13:16:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 41835)
Dragonfly
Very significant find, that info on Venuzuela being next to accept Euros for oil. That is the first hint of that move.



justamereBear (11/20/00; 13:06:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 41834)
John Doe 41832

I am short on time so I will just turn your question around. (no insult intended)

When did you realize that the managed press government propaganda that we get fed was a bunch of garbage? How did you realize that? The Russians have had a saying for many years that might be apropos; They pretend to pay us, and we pretend to work. (part of a commentary on how many, and why, there was so much drinking on the job.) The realization has, in part has been for years, and in part has not yet been realized.

J'Bear

justamereBear (11/20/00; 12:53:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 41833)
Trail guide

I can't understand how my message fell off my last post. Charge it up to senility or lack of wisdom or whatever. (smile for Mr Gresham)

I read your post yesterday, and had a whole series of thoughts, which have also disappeared from my desk. (Read junk pile) They were mostly effusive and complementary, but I am short on time at the moment, and must go back and re read. At the time I thought it was a HOF material, but had some MK reservations. I will leave those up to MK since they are really in his ball park, and second the nomination to the HoF.

John Doe (11/20/00; 12:51:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 41832)
@justamereBear, ALL
You mentioned daily life in Russia and this set me to thinking. This question is open to anyone who has had experience under communist rule or knows anyone who has.

I wonder, at what point did the average Russian conclude that nearly all political and economic "news" reported by Tass and Pravda was just so much garbage? Did it happen one person at a time over many years, or was it a sudden, overnight realization? What was the terminal clue for the average Russian that it was all just a "pack of lies"? Or did it ever happen at all, and only the ultimate dissolution of the USSR itself discredited the prior pronouncements of the established media organs?

Is the USSA (Union of Socialist States of America) at that inflection point, before it, or already after it?

justamereBear (11/20/00; 12:27:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 41831)
Jouneyman 41812 Perplexed 41811 & 22 Trail Guide Mr Gresham 41827.
currie@mqcinc.com

Hi there my friends.

Perplexed.
I certainly did not think of you as ignoring me. I personally have a problem with typing speed, and moreover I do not see any particular point in posting in response to a post that I agree with. Certainly it would be gracious to note it, but if everybody did so the forum would be cluttered beyond belief. This is why I seldom post to Oro, Black blade, Trail guide, yourself or Journeyman, to name a few. When I post and there is no response, I assume people have either read and agree, or it is so boring they are not interested. Being vain, I discount the latter. (smile) (if they disagree you hear about it soon enough)

I was particularly taken by your 41811, and agree that our government has done a first class job in turning the tables on us. As to religion, or non religion, we have exchanged Emails on the subject, so I think we understand our "non" religions. Actually, today I think they are just very high moral standards.

As to the quantity and quality of my pessimism, I plead guilty to a severe case. I think the conditions here will be harder than they are in present day Russia, simply because we have further to fall. Peviously I posted here a book title, "Moscow Days etc" which gives a very revealing account of day to day life in Moscow written by a Moscow jounalist. Don't remember the authors name or the complete title off hand, but it can be found at any of the on line bookstores by searching under Moscow days. I own it and recommend it. Buy the soft cover, which is somewhat less expensive.

I also did a homework in a communications course I took, actually a series of them. Several weeks of 2 and 3 page letters "to Mom" (who is incidently deceased) in which I discuss a variety of the problems facing mankind. If you want a copy, send me your snail mail address, and I will send you photocopies. I don't have them on the computer, and am not going to the trouble of typing them. For me it would be about 2 weeks typing. In case you have misplaced it, my Email address is above. I don't object to Emails from anyone, but the speed of my response is questionable.

Journeyman
As always I enjoy your thoughts. This was a new/old way of looking at respose ability for me. Reminds me of the thing about being an honorable man as in "he is an honorable man". Honorable refers to being true to ones own values. The mistake most people make is in assuming that my values equal yours. My appologies for not being as effusive as I might in posting these sentiments about your, and others posts.

I also extend the invitation above re homeworks to you and Mr Gresham. (and Galearis) If you are interested, send me your mailing address.

PS I have watched with some amusement the exchanges between you and Galearis. (whose posts I also enjoy)(since I am in the line of work that I am, the exchanges have been amusing)

Mr Gresham.
Thank you for your thank you. As to wisdom, I always wonder a bit, and mostly a lot, about the validity of my mental processes. Such a comment makes it worthwhile, even if I have yet to learn how to spell. (no I am not going to blame it on my one flying finger, altho it often happens that way.)

This is a bit of a PS, since I went back to get Journeymans post number, and saw your post.

Best Regards,

j'Bear




Galearis (11/20/00; 12:16:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 41830)
@Journeyman
Libertarianism and the "environment"
No position is stated "save" (if I can use the word in this context) that pertaining to resources. A narrow focus does not enlighten and never will.

I do not feel that the Libertarian philosophy or world view will attract many tree huggers - or those who study ecology in general. (Assuming the subject will even be taught in a "Libertarian world".) The philosophy certainly holds no attraction for me....

The position on education IMO is even more frightening. It will simply lead to a general confusion when the lack of attention, described in the above and an earlier post, begins to be felt.

That is my position.

Regards,

G.

Rockgrabber (11/20/00; 11:33:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 41829)
dragonfly
Thank you much for that link. That reading there was all to surreal.


THE WRITING IS ON THE WALL.

SHIFTY (11/20/00; 11:17:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 41828)
For what its worth!
For what its worth, I think that the Democrat judges will tell Al " You loose" That way the democrats cant say it was a partisan decision. I think its the best way to put out the fire and get on with life.

I would love them to ask Algore : How many times does Bush have to win before you give it up?

:)
Off to the supermarket

$hifty



Mr Gresham (11/20/00; 10:57:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 41827)
justamereBear (11/20/2000; 4:23:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 41799)
Your critique of the forum's preoccupation with daily minutiae, and praise of its idealism expressed my exact thoughts. Thank you.

Re: the tidal wave (after the asteroid hits): I love to live near ocean water, but I have always tried to be up at least 200-foot elevation above the shoreline. (Both literally and figuratively.) At least I've got the 100-foot waves covered...

Much appreciation for all your wisdom shared with us over the past weeks!

dragonfly (11/20/00; 10:49:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 41826)
Hot Potatoes
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nb20001120a2.htm


Howdy y'all. Did anyone notice this article from the Japan Times Online? Below is an excerpt.
--------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------


Fourth, the euro zone as a whole needs to streamline its
excessive dollar holdings. Each of the EU members, within the range of the Exchange Rate Mechanism, holds dollar reserves to stabilize the exchange rates of their own currencies. But the launch of a single currency has made those reserves unnecessary. Something must be done about this situation in light of the downtrend in U.S. stock prices anticipated in the coming months and a possible review of the "strong dollar" policy under a Republican administration headed by George W. Bush.

--------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------

The article also mentions Venezuela possibly following Iraq's lead on the Euro for oil thing.

Regards,
dragonfly


Galearis (11/20/00; 10:06:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 41825)
@Journeyman re your last post
Since I have already gone public with my email address, I will post this again. It is clector@redden.on.ca. Apparently, I posted all my responses to your three segment essay on Libertarianism to another (the other another - smile), so I guess this individual has the advantage of the good read. (smile) I don't think I will post HIS email again as this could be taken as a discourtesy. Instead I ask you please to send me yours so that we can play catch-up with the concepts in discussion.

I have copied your third installment to my word processor for dissection and comment. When you send me an address, I will send you all. I missed it earlier in my pursuit of another life. (smile)

Libertarianism and the Environment:

A short comment now - later to be expanded after some more researches: The Libertarian position according to your brief words fails in that the repercussions of allowing property rights and a free market approach to "problems" in the "environment" would be limited by the understanding of lowest common denominator of those (the population and corporations -really both part and parcel the same entities)involved. To date this lowest common denominator defines "environment" in the non-ecological sense. (Air polution and water quality. This is only a TINY bit of "environment" The very term "environment" also infers the lack of comprehension because it is unqualified - and only pertains to the human use/security relm of comprehension.)The market as a rule only defines it this way - AND with a resource only point of view. Such a system such as ours, is always a reactive one on ecological matters. Even regulation fails in most areas due to the above. A deregulated environment would exacerbate our problems by an order of magnitude in my opinion. Nader IS right in this area.

In other words, as we see in other jurisdictions, "environmental" problems become noticeable when numbers of people start to die, or the various ecological communities (forest, lakes, fisheries) have suffered so severely that their absense is noticed by the greater majority. By this point the damage, as you might surmise, is very severe and for the most part irreversable. The resource way of looking at the environment in even modern historical events would support the generalization that a resource tends to be dead-marketed both in the ecological extinction sense AND in the resource sense. Our current east coast fisheries is a wonderful example. The west coast is currently catching up quickly, indeed. Common sense does not prevail well against this damage. The greater number still only appreciate the problem in terms of economic returns. Property rights would exacerbate this trend as I have made reference to in my essay. People are not responsible or aware enough to play an uncompromised stewartship role in the "real world". As an active ecologist I can say this with fair certainty.

I will also look into that site on the Libertarian philosophy.

My apologies are extended to you, if you had occasion to opinion to yourself any discourtesy by neglect on my part.

Best regards,

G.

P.S. Child poverty in Ontario has jumped 92% under the Harris government. This can be compared to 27% in the rest of the country. I listen to the news report as I type. The trickle down economics ain't what it used to be.....

Mr Gresham (11/20/00; 09:55:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 41824)
Perplexed
Dude!

VanRip (11/20/00; 09:40:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 41823)
RE: PALM BEACH COUNTY REVOTE
Local CBS station briefly interrupted network programming a few minutes ago to say that Judge Jorge Labarga has ruled AGAINST holding a presidential revote in Palm Beach County. He's the judge who is presiding over the numerous election cases filed by voters in Palm Beach County who claimed the county's ballot was confusing and illegal. Reporter also stated that dems would most certainly appeal.

Perplexed (11/20/00; 09:34:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 41822)
Bear # 41799

Hello my friend

Didn't mean to ignore you. I had prepared my post last night and had it ready to send this morning before reading anything else. Very interesting as always.
You are either a little more pessimistic or perhaps realistic than I, but by and large we share much of the same sentiments.

I too sense a time line coming to a close in the human experience. I too see the possibility of a very dramatic decline in population. The heated abortion argument and the ecological movement go hand in hand. It doesn't take a genius to recognize the fact that the Earth, though capable of regeneration, must be afforded time and opportunity, and an increase of three billion people within 50 years affords neither.

History, over a long period of time proves that the population will be controlled by nature either through, famine, disease, pestilence or by war. The human race is blessed with the sense to recognize and project probable consequences from current information and the ability to respond to any threat, that is the difference between us and the other animals that co-inhabit this planet. If we do not use that ability then we have squandered the most valuable gift of our creator.

At one time I was caught up in Christainity until it finally dawned on me: These churches are built around the vehicle not the occupant. To me this body that I now occupy is not sacred, but is merely the vehicle of my spirit. If I indeed have eternal life then it is a gift bestowed upon me by creator. I do not have to qualify for it by following rules, rituals and initiation by some priest of preacher, it already extends from eternity to eternity. I am not in a court house, I am in school house, and death and rebirth is nothing more than changing clothes.

My physical brain is nothing more than the RAM on this computer. All my experiences are saved on my eternal hard drive and added to the universal mind, to be accessed sometime in the future.

Well I told you that I was Perplexed.

wolavka (11/20/00; 09:30:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 41821)
Holidays
Over indulgence; when she informs you not to, explain to her that the art of intoxication has the same stages as falling in love.

1. THE INVITATION

2. THE FASCINATION

3. THE AGITATION

4. THE MEDITATION

5. THE EXHILARATION

6. THE INTOXICATION


SAME GOES FOR GOLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HAPPY HOLIDAYS

tedw (11/20/00; 08:52:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 41820)
Abortion on the Gold Forum
http://www.usagold.com

Im not really sure the above is an appropriate discussion on the Gold Forum, but since others have posted so will I.

I spent over 3 years counseling outside a Los Angeles area abortion clinic from 1985-1988.I saw things most people dont see. During the time we counseled over 100 women who were scheduled to have abortions changed their minds and kept their babies.

I saw a woman come out of the clinic & sit on the front steps and cry for 5 minutes over what she had done.I talked to a woman who was so hypnotized she believed it wasnt a child, and when the truth dawned on her she changed her mind. Numerous times I saw women break into tears and change their mind when they were shown photos of fetus actually forming. I saw irate customers threaten us while going into the clinic, yet have a change of heart while inside and come out and apologize and go home with the unborn child still alive. I saw repentant women who had lost their child dedicate years of their lives to help others from making the same mistake.I saw couples break out into fights over whether to keep the child. I saw the abortion clinic hire staff to pose as customers to tie up counselors so women would not be given one final chance to do the right thing. I saw insane feminists shielding customers from the truth, yet convinced in their lost minds they were doing good. I saw innocent housewives arrested on trumped up charges by the clinic.And eventually, I saw good Americans so fed up with what was going on, they placed their bodies at the clinic door and forced it to close. And I saw those same Americans being beaten up by the Los Angleles Police Department.

I also saw that the main problem with abortion is not women. It is men. The failure of men to be men.Most of the women who had abortions would not have been there if they had a man in their life that truly loved them.I saw America being aborted. I saw your wives,your sisters, neices, cousins and aunts being aborted. I saw evil at work. I also saw that there is a mystical Light within human beings that lets them know what good and evil is,and tries to redeem them.

It is the light that lighteth every man that comes into the world.






Journeyman (11/20/00; 08:48:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 41819)
No, I didn't!! @Galearis

Hi Galearis!

"I just wondered if you got my emails in
reply to your comments posted on the forum." -Galearis

Ah, no! What address did you send them to??

Regards, j.

Journeyman (11/20/00; 08:43:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 41818)
Excellent post @Still Perplexed, but things are getting clearer!

Hi Perplexed!

Excellent post!! (@Perplexed (11/20/00; 07:56:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 41811)

High regards,
Journeyman


Galearis (11/20/00; 08:42:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 41817)
@Journeyman
on my last message,....
Please disregard. I missed your response yesterday when I went to bed early. Nice to hear from you again.

I know you never posted your email address - I posted mine. I just wondered if you got my emails in reply to your comments posted on the forum. I did not feel that all the forum would be particularly interested in some of my views.

Thanks,

G.

elevator guy (11/20/00; 08:33:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 41816)
Please excuse any spelling errors in that last post.
I was in a hurry.

:^)

Galearis (11/20/00; 08:31:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 41815)
@ Journeyman
So in terms of response. The ability to respond is also curtailed as you say by ones ability to do so. And not because a response is not worthy of the message or a question recieved.

So I can take from this that there is not position held by the Libertarian philosophy on ecological environmental issues. Yes? So would Libertarians be irresponsible in environmental matters because it is invisible to their belief systems? Is this is why you can not respond or take responsibility for the answer to the question? (I posted the question yesterday too.)

I really would like to read the next installment -even by email. I rather enjoyed the read. Life is a learning curve, yes?

Thanks,

G.

elevator guy (11/20/00; 08:28:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 41814)
When is something dead?
If we were disscussing the price or worth of gold, all those around this mighty oaken table round would argue vehemently that it is alive, or could be alive, or should be alive, or most certainly will be alive, if people would only stop being so ignorant and just beleive.

When it comes to an unborn child, where is the dividing line between a human being with all constitutional rights to life, liberty, (read that as being allowed to be born), and the pursuit of happiness, and on the other hand, where is the other side of the dividing line that shows there is no life. Are not all species of plants, animals, and humans "living".

If an indication of life was breath, then we would not perform CPR on those short of breath. We would just let them suffocate untill their brains shut off, because they are dead anyway. Obviously, we dont treat them that way, we encourage them back to full health by CPR, because we recognize the value of their life.

The same could be said about the heartbeat. Its absence is not an indicator of the relative value, worth, or viability of a human life, whether born or unborn. Thats why we have defibrilators. (sp?)

Can someone please out a defibrilator on the price of gold? I think its dying. But it may yet live, hold on, I'm not sure, lets not give up hope.

If brain waves were the measure of viability, then we sould just unplug all those that are in commas, if they have no brain activity, because they really are dead. Its really wonderful when someone comes out of a comma, how happy their family is.

While we are so good at deciding who has the right to live or die, why dont we just shoot anyone who is

a) elderly, 'cause their viability level is low,
b) ethnic groups below the poverty line, 'cause they liter the earth, (this is the essence of "Pro-choice, genocide of the unwanted)
c) anyone who does not fit in with our religious/ethinic/intellectual guidelines for viability.

Lets all worship the State, because the State is really good at deciding on matters of life (Zeig Heil), and the State is the entity who is best qualified to make these choices.

One time I was having a (ah-hem) disscussion with an abortion advocate, and I pointed out that if you were not sure where when life began, you are obligated to assume that it begin at conception, for a lack of any other proven benchmark. As I walked away, she shouted at me, "Well, do you want to take care of them?" And in her remark I see the essence of the Pro-Death camp, which is that we see problems in the world, and the only answer from man's perspective is to get rid of the unwanted. Whether it is murder or not, is not the point, we just have to get rid of them. A long list of people have been murdered under this "practical" justification, including
a) Jews
b) Christians
c) Homosexuals
d) Blacks
e) Kurds
f) Cambodians
g) etc, etc

So should we just give up on all alternatives, like teaching at risk groups how to control themselves, rythym, birth control, etc? OR is the easiest answer just to murder the un-born, and dont worry about whether it is murder or not, just cloak it in morally vague/legally convincing terms like "a woman's right to choose" Choose death? Since when does a mother have the right to choose death for her un-born baby? This popular terminology was invented to shift the focus of thought away from life issues, into legal issues, and thereby to quench the reproach and opposition to a shameful and disgusting practice o murdering babies in the womb, before they have a chance at living their life. What kind of a sick society does something like this? A society on the verge of collapse, thats who.


If a human life were an easy thing to quantify as non-living gold, we would have all kinds of support against all apearent odds, that it should be allowed to live, at all costs. If you cant prove its dead, then we must assume it has viability.

Go gold, go life, go GATA.

Journeyman (11/20/00; 08:24:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 41813)
Prediction @SteveH msg#: 41804, ALL

Hi SteveH!

Yea! Prediction is key & I agree with your approach to it since any prediction is only a probability. Good predictions give credibility, and yes, unfortunately, we're only as good as our last prediction -- in the eyes of the uninitiated -- so it's usually best, as you suggest, to "just point out" rather than predict. Help others to see why you predict and allow them to do their own prediction work.

What really counts is the long-term track-record of your predictions!

High regards,
Journeyman


Journeyman (11/20/00; 08:06:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 41812)
Response ability @ALL

Responsibility is a contraction of "response ability." It's not something that's imposed on you, it's something you have -- or not. It begins in the mind. Especially, if you believe you can't respond, you're right.

Much frustration over responsibility in the current culture is because it has become a subliminal assumption that response ability can be easily assigned and the habit of attempting to do so has become a chronic habit.

No matter how much you wish it were otherwise, no one can have response ability until they have learned a major part of the repertoire of responses appropriate to the particular situation.

For the above reason, assigning response ability is often impossible. Even in the case of a sub-set of people who know the appropriate repertoire of responses, you had better make sure those to whom you've attempted to assign responsability have accepted it.

Most of us are much too quick to both assign response ability and to accept it. Often people who complain about responsibility do so because they are too quick to take response ability for others, or chronically feel they must.

When you take response ability for someone, don't expect them to respond also. If you continue this practice, they may lose whatever ability to respond they previously had.

Many people who complain about "responsibility" do so because they have violated the above guidelines, don't know they exist, or have failed to learn them in the first place.

Regards,
Journeyman


Perplexed (11/20/00; 07:56:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 41811)
Constitutional Crisis Circa 1865


THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WERE CONQUERED!!!

The vast majority of citizens do not recognize the fact that our nation was "united" by military conquest. The Civil War, according to the words of Lincoln, was not to free the slaves but to "preserve" the union. The advocates of the principle of states rights lost the war, the advocates of the power of central government won.

WHY HAVE WE FORGOTTEN THE CARPETBAGGER PERIOD WITHIN OUR NATION?

The Constitution, as well as the right of Habias Corpus was suspended during the Civil War; the nation was ruled under martial law and for an extended period following the war. As an example: General Lew Wallace, wrote BEN HUR while serving as the military governor of what is now New Mexico.
THE CONSTITUTION, RESTORED, WAS NOT THE CONSTITUTION SUSPENDED!!!
Think, and ask yourself the question: What condition existed immediately following the war for independence? The answer: Total right of individual sovereignty. The purpose for the war was fulfilled; it was then and there a reality; there was no government structure. The only restraint on the freeman was the inherent moral code, or the lack thereof, present within the individual.

OUR NATIONS GOVERNMENT BEGAN ON A BLANK SHEET OF PAPER.
FOR THE FIRST TIME IN RECORDED HISTORY, A SOVEREIGN PEOPLE CREATED A SOVEREIGN GOVERNMENT; A GOVERNMENT SUBSERVIENT TO THE CITIZENS.

The Federalist Constitution, suspended at the beginning of the Civil War,had been created in compliance with this scenario.

TO THE VICTOR BELONGS THE SPOILS

When The Constitution was restored, the federal government, and the officials staffing the offices, assumed the rights of authority inherent of conquest.

Although the words were unchanged,it began to be interpreted in accordance with British Maritime Law. Due to this one hundred eighty degree change of application, the citizens were stripped of sovereignty and the officers of government acquired it.

WE THE PEOPLE NOW FIND OURSELVES SUBSERVIENT TO GOVERNMENT!

The former States of the Confederacy were occupied and ruled by the federal government, and the Constitution became what the controlling politicians of the time declared it to be, to be adhered to or ignored, as political convenience dictated--a condition existing to this day.

While the Civil War established the legitimate principle of the responsibility of our form of government to be the legal protection of individual rights for all citizens. It also re-established the principle of inherent governmental power, substituting delegated authority with assumed rights.

This is the power behind the judges authority to re-interpret, and the President and Legislators prerogative to ignore the Constitution without regard to their oaths.

The magnitude of change was not recognized at the time because the mechanism of government was too weak to enforce much of the acquired power, however, the foundation was laid.

Several abortive attempts to create a national bank, finally culminating in the Federal Reserve, income tax laws, confiscation of constitutional money, and enforcement of prohibition laws were among the first examples of the expanding power.

However, federal power was not expanded in earnest until the Civil Rights movement. When President Eisenhower used federal civilian police to militarily force compliance of Civil Rights laws, the flood gate was opened.

The Bill of Rights, or what is left of it, is now the only obstacle between us and the feudalistic government from which our forefathers escaped.

The First Amendment is now controlled by government. Example: Through two world wars, journalist and photo journalist were routinely on the front lines and in the fox holes with the troops, some paid the price of freedom with their lives, it was their choice then, and should be their choice now.

However, remember what happened to the plot after the man was discovered behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz? Same question! How many of us are going to believe our eyes, and how many will continue to believe what we are told?
Government officials don't know the answer, and have no desire to find it.

Consequently, because the truth has a nasty habit of playing hell with the spin doctors version of a good story, correspondents, "for their protection." are now routinely denied live access to events and activities and given the story government officials prefer that we the people be fed.
In addition, our radio and television industry must operate under license requiring them to broadcast in the "public interest", as determined by agencies of government.

The Second Amendment is our last bulwark of protection, and it is under constant attack.

The Fourth, Ninth, and Tenth are now routinely ignored, as will be the others, should they become applicable.

WHERE DID THESE LAWS COME FROM?

In 1215 AD, on a muddy battle field in Runnymede, the British Monarch, with a sword at his throat, was forced by an army of rebellious land owners, to sign the Magna Carta, an agreement to share the power of government.

The leaders of this army were grudgingly recognized by the crown as aristocratic, quasi royalty. They, and their progeny, became a part of the government with all its benefits, into perpetuity.

The Monarch, as head of a government traditionally recognized and sanctified by the Church as a creation of God, enjoyed sovereign immunity. Ministers of government, especially naval officers, in the name of the monarch, were protected with this shield when wielding the power of his or her majesties government.( While James Bond the character is fictional, the license to kill (sovereign immunity) is not.)

Under this system, known as Maritime Law, all rights belong to the government, and is the standard underwhich Great Britain has been ruled for centuries.

Our government, built upon the foundation laid in 1865, has now attained what was then its potential power. This power was necessary to fulfill the mandate of securing the rights of sovereignty to every citizen, regardless of sex, creed, race, or religion.

However, history has proven that government power is invariably used to acquire additional power, and that if it can be misused, it will be misused.

Our politicians, in the name of the federal government--just as the British, in the name of the Monarch--now act under the cloak of sovereign immunity, and, while the license to kill (sovereign immunity) has been extended to federal police, judges and others of their choosing, a concerted effort is underway to deny the right to the means of self defense (sovereign right) to the vanquished sovereigns of the nation.

Under the guise of constant re-interpretation, a facade has been created to disguise and justify our current authoritarian government and sell it to the citizens as Constitutional.

By constant repetition of policy over a period of about 50 years, our leaders have replaced a stable Constitutional Republic, with a very unstable Socialist Democracy. And, according to James Madison per the Federalist Papers:

"Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property, and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths."

Are these words-- a haunting from the grave--a warning which we have chosen to ignore, or do they merely highlight circumstances over which we have had no control, short of another Civil War?

Is it the chosen time for our current cross breed government to face the ultimate judge? The Declaration of Independence!

MY PERSONAL OPINION?

The caterpillar is in the process of expiring of old age, that the butterfly may emerge in the form of the true Republic (self government) envisioned within the Declaration of Independence. A government ordained, and managed into existence within a certain time frame by the Creator of all things. A government impossible to build until now.

"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, and are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".

With these beliefs and statements, our forefathers justified the killing of "His Majesties" troops, and the overthrow of a government.

If this statement, an affirmation of the dignity and sovereignty of each individual, was an untruth, then our forefathers were murderers, and our nation was founded illegitimately. ( The view of British Royalty for over two centuries.)

If however, the Declaration of Independence is a statement of eternal truth, should every copy of the document be destroyed, the innate principles contained within it will continue to drive future generations, just as they had driven the many previous generations, prior to Jefferson having committed them to paper.

The Declaration of Independence neither builds a government nor does it mandate a form of government, it merely states the goals of any government to be the securing of individual sovereignty.

To secure these rights, governments are created among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

This uncompromising judge will continue to destroy governments and civilizations until mankind finally perceives and acts upon this truth:

The essence of the term "the governed" is embodied, in its totality, in each sovereign human being!

In a proclamation consisting of only thirty-six words, Jefferson recognized the intended value of every individual soul, their relationship to each other, and their collective relationship to their creator; the principles comprising the heart and soul of civilization itself.

While the ingenious manner in which the power of government is curtailed and limited by checks and balances has been hailed as the master piece of representative government, correctly recognizing the source of lawful government to be each individual citizen, was of far greater importance

Our forefathers, by hypocritically protecting the "right" of slavery, and the denial of universal sovereignty, doomed their government to failure before it was implemented. Thus the Civil War!

A person must possess their sovereignty before they can voluntarily subjugate a portion of it to a just government.

It has taken us 130 years and the most brutal war in our history to achieve the necessary conditions for each and every person regardless of race, creed, color, and sex to at least get a fair shot at the brass ring.

A CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS? WHAT DO YOU THINK?

The selling of indulgences shattered Catholicism, destroying forever the unity of Christianity, and that same process, now serving as our "justice system" is producing identical results. When either absolution or justice becomes a commodity you have neither.

Judicially we are rapidly approaching the time that juries will be incapable of rendering important decisions, state governments enact legislation, or the results of elections certified, without the threat of being overturned at some level of the judiciary.

Financially we are tolerating a tax & currency system even its administrators don't understand.Politically we have devised no better methods than auction and bribery to choose our leaders; conflict of interest has been expunged from our vocabulary.

Individually we must secure the services of an attorney to either explain the common law of the land, or, have it reinterpreted to our benefit in a court of law.

Morally we are allowing our government representatives to sell our following generations into indentured servitude, to provide present government "services" and future "benefits" that we ourselves are unwilling to pay for.

THERE IS AN ALTERNATIVE!

The civilization built on the model of the Declaration of Independence is still in our future.

Self Government is the only viable form of government, all others require libraries of capricious, contradictory law, and an army of (priest) lawyers to interpret and guide the individual through this artificial mine field.

Collective self government must begin with individual self government--but not to worry. If we are indeed beings created in the image and after the likeness of our Creator, along with the inherited sovereignty (derived through education, and the consequences of experience), comes the inherent ability to achieve and maintain that sovereignty.

We have no choice! If the ability exist, so also does the responsibility.

When a dam breaks the impounded water destroys everything in its path, while seeking its natural level. The possibility exist that very shortly we may be treading sewer water and dodging the debris of what was formerly identified as the World Financial System and the present U.S Government.

Gold doesn't naturally float, however, the sewage in which we are likely to find ourselves, will,in all likelihood be so thick, that gold and silver will become the ultimate life jacket.

OUR CONSTITUTION, WHEN APPLIED AS THE BILL OF RIGHT PROVES THAT IT WAS INTENDED, AND INTERPRETED ACCORDING TO THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, IS STILL A VERY VIABLE CONTRACT OF GOVERNMENT!!

A very exciting time to be alive!

Still Perplexed, but things are getting clearer, Thanks guys and gals!





Belgian (11/20/00; 07:32:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 41810)
A pragmatic point of vieuw
We all keep on trying to understand why POG in particular moves, this or that, way. Is it the US$ or POO or interest rates (inflation)...etc ? In the past, we failed to record,
WHO was responsible and for WHAT exact reason...to buy/sell, gold . CB's have been and still are net sellers or at best, no movers on physical goldvolume. No evidence of secret adding to goldreserves. Increased jewelry consumption is neither a POG-riser. Total small gold-investors aren't able to move POG, our way. So, the question arises...who is going to do the job ? Wich part of the speculation-community is going to take the initiative to accumulate gold and bring its price back in sinc with its value ? Answer : the Funds . Why don't we investigate on the funds, what might take them to decide on gold interest ? Is gold just a number in the row of speculative items ? Why does the US$ and POO or inflation have to decide on POG ? Buying gold, storing it, and keeping its price in sinc with production costs in perspective to offer/demand balance...is so childisch simple and profitable on a constant basis !
This is exactely what all buyers of physical gold are doing.
It remains so difficult to understand, why the goldproducers aren't focussing on this rockbottom solid principle of gold ?
The oil-cartel is giving the example today. I do believe that POO-increase is the result of a shift in oil filosophy, by the Arab producers. They control 1/3 of world's production (25 milj bpd of total 75 milj bpd). Or rufly total US consumption. They firmly decided to have a complete different vieuw on providing continiously, very cheap oil to the world. They wan't their share of the meatpots now ! They don't want to run the risk of a 10$ POO bottom, again. I am somewhat convinced, they will succeed.
A similar strategy must be possible for gold. I can't find a reason, why there is no initiative developping, to obtain the same result. The short time speculative aspect of gold, must be much stronger than the fundamental investment aspect of the matter. Why aren't goldproducers or goldproducing nations, creating their own Gold-Bank ?
What is the advantage of a goldprice, lagging its intrinsic value ?
If POG is related to US$, for the last 5 years...this relation is not found for the last 30 years as a whole. 1985 dollar ATH (almost today's double) had POG= 300$. No linear correlation. Mr. Paul van Eeden, hasn't given any comments on this aspect of "understanding POG".
This leaves us with a possible and very disappointing conclusion that for the last 20 years...Gold wasn't considered as a profitable speculation number. The moves on US$/rates/stockmarket/currencies...were much more profitable to speculate on. Do we really need a total black out on all this more profitable speculative items...before gold can place itself in the forefront, again ?

An autonome world goldbank, could organise its own carry trades. Probably, as a stabilising factor, against other destructive carry trades ? If goldproducers can't agree on stopping their hedges...maybe they can agree on a collective self-defense strategy ? This initiative might rewake some standard ideas ? Of course, time will tell...but, it looks like the oilproducers have waken up, with some price supportive strategies for a prolonged future. Wonder if the old Geopolitics will still work from now on ? Goldproducers : do something or tell us, why nothing has to be done !

Orville Goldenbacher (11/20/2000; 6:49:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 41809)
Clinton kills again!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20001120/aponline013902_000.htm
This time it's his own lawyer who represented him in his impeachment trial, this guy REALLY knows no shame!!!

wolavka (11/20/2000; 6:23:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 41808)
gold
good day for gold!!!!!!!!!

DaveC (11/20/2000; 6:20:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 41807)
ORO and SteveH
ORO, I was never stating any need for laws governing reproductive rights. I am a Libertarian and the last thing we need is more laws in this world.

What I was trying to do with the abortion debate is only show how the argument is taken away from the real issue, the child, and "reframed." Words are chosen which turn this subject into a labratory experiment. I think the response from Steve's friend provved my point. He is all caught up in the techno-jargon and seems to think we humans can designate when life begins. The fact that a baby cannot live outside the womb does not mean it's heart is not pumping, it limbs are not moving and it's brain is not developing.

To me, this points to an even larger problem as technology races ahead a breakneck speed. In the movie Jurasaic Park, Jeff Goldblum asks "We asked whether we could, maybe we need to ask whether we should."

By wrapping everything into techno-speak, whether it's abortion, euthanasia or DNA, are we not losing something as human beings?

Here at the "trail" we discuss having the best monetary system, what about the best social system? Does that not start with a healthy respect and appreciation for life?

My other point was one about responsibility. We can argue about whether a viable baby is wanted or not, but are we sending the right signals to our children by avoiding the real issue, responsibility?

What really is getting me now is this argument about knowing when life begins. How did we get this power to know?

SteveH,

Thanks for the reinforcement. I'm with you, a gold/silver/euro nut. You should here the cracks I get for buying a bag of junk silver coins. Oh well, he who laughs last, laughs best.


SteveH (11/20/2000; 6:05:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 41806)
Repost
www.kitco.com
Date: Mon Nov 20 2000 05:25
SDRer (Sharefine, squinting at "Historical gold reserves") ID#246299:
Copyright © 2000 SDRer/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

PROSPECTIVE GOLD LOSSES
We must expect further substantial gold losses over the next few months. The certainty of such losses is related mainly to our continuing heavy balance of payments deficit rather than to hoarding and speculation. In fact, the London gold market has been quiescent since November and the central bank consortium has been a net buyer of gold. At best, however, these purchases are not likely to exceed $70 - 80 million per month, of which the U.S. share would be one-half. Meanwhile, foreign countries that are gaining dollars over and above working balances or normal holdings are planning to take gold from us.

The U.K. and the entire sterling area are in a seasonal period of surplus, which the British expect to total, very roughly, about $400 million in the first six months of 1963. The Federal Reserve has been negotiating for an increase to $250 million ( from $50 million ) in the mutual swap facility with the Bank of England. If these negotiations are successful, the full credit is likely to be used to absorb the U.K. accruals temporarily, pending a possible seasonal reversal of the payments flow in the fall. The British want the remaining $150 million in gold, however, of which they are taking $50 million today.

France is still running large surpluses, which may total close to $1.2 billion for the year. The French will probably use half this amount for debt prepayments. Of the remainder, about three-fourths will be converted into gold since the French aim at a 75-percent gold ratio in their
reserves. If the French do no more than to keep up their regular monthly purchases of $34 million ( $204 million in the first six months of the year ) , their gold ratio will actually decline slightly.

Spain's rate of reserve gains has slowed, but the Spaniards wish to raise their gold holdings to $600 million from $480 million--i.e., to about one-half the $1.2 billion in reserves they expect to reach by mid- year. Consequently, they have asked for $20 million a month for six months
starting in January. The latest Spanish demand is ostensibly related to the fact that the British have withdrawn an exchange guarantee on Spain's holdings of sterling. Therefore, the Spaniards will convert some of their sterling into dollars to buy the gold so that we will probably
lose somewhat less gold to the British than we otherwise might.

An Austrian gold purchase of $50 million was postponed late last year through use of a Federal Reserve swap of that amount with the Austrian National Bank, but since there has been no turnaround in their balance of payments, we must expect them to run off the swap and
purchase gold early in 1963. The Austrians have a steady payments surplus and wish to hold 50 percent of their reserves in gold. They are well below that ratio now.

These prospective gold purchases total roughly $525 million for the first half of the year. While we might very optimistically hope to recoup as much as $200 million from the London gold market and other sources over this period, any renewal of uncertainties and fears could
greatly reduce this figure. Moreover, the gold demands of the U.K., France, Spain and Austria may be augmented by those of other countries, although we think we have a fairly good basis for gauging the bulk of the first-half-of-1963 demands.

The situation underscores the crucial importance of using as intensively as possible all appropriate methods to curb the balance of payments deficit. Douglas Dillon
Washington, January 16, 1963.
Source: Kennedy Library, President's Office Files,
http://dosfan.lib.uic.edu/ERC/frus/frus61-63ix/05_Section_5.html

The remaining "propaganda puzzle", and it's a doozy, is usd 'strength'...

" ( 2 ) Second, the gold-dollar system contains some danger of instability. Large scale conversions of dollars into gold are always possible. Such conversions would not only diminish the gold reserves of the U.S.; they would also reduce the total world stock of reserves, since the converted dollars would simply disappear from international use.

...is particularly disadvantageous to the U.S. It restricts rather than facilitates expansion in the supply of reserves. IT LINKS THE TOTAL SUPPLY RIGIDLY TO GOLD. TO THE OUTSIDE WORLD IT MIGHT APPEAR AS A PREMIUM GOLD PRICE AND THUS STIMULATE PRIVATE SPECULATION. http://www.state.gov/www/about_state/history/vol_viii/16_25.html



JavaMan (11/20/2000; 5:57:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 41805)
ORO, in your msg#: 41798 you said...
"Modern attitude afforded babies is not natural and is quite beyond irrational."

JavaMan: In a Godless society, where man is the measure of all things, such a statement, along with most of the balance of your post is absolutely correct.


SteveH (11/20/2000; 5:46:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 41804)
DaveC
All of us here have (to some degree) found that our thoughts are not accepted or welcome by our friends or families -- in the sense of discourse and discussion. They hear, of course, but don't listen. They categorize us as gold nuts or doom and gloomers or Euro nuts. We don't care though because we have learned to be more subtle and make change and inform and teach in other ways. An article sent here and comment made there has garnered me at least one (no, it was just one) comment that I called something right -- I believe it was oil going much higher (gold needs to go higher for another good prediction to come true, but they the answer will be, "It was bound to eventually." But we are only as good as our last prediction so it is better never to predict, just point out.

wolavka (11/20/2000; 5:43:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 41803)
Happy Holidays
Here's a gift for your family. This is a killer recipe for apple pie, of which was no freebie to me many years ago:

SOUR CREAM APPLE PIE

2 cups apples sliced
1 cup sour cream
1 egg
3/4 cup sugar
1 tsp vanilla


Topping:
1/3 cup brown sugar
1/3 cup floor
1/4 cup butter 1 tbs cinnamon

Bake 1st 15 minutes @ 425
then reduce heat for 30 minutes @ 350



SteveH (11/20/2000; 5:33:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 41802)
ORO and cigarettes
So, the anti-cigarette movement could be construed to be unconstitutional in so far as a person can smoke (do to his/her body) as they please(see fit). This is the reason for smoking areas being available in public or segregated areas. If the smoke doesn't affect others and just the smoker, then all is well. When the smoke creeps into the air of non-smokers or smokers who aren't smoking, then the act of smoking impacts others and becomes a hazard (long-term). It is this Public Health notion of smoking that has made the exercise of the right to smoke (to do what one would do to one's body what one will) much more difficult to exercise.

Just regard all the taxes and price hikes that have resulted to economically disuade smokers from smoking. This raises the question, where anti-smoking law suits constitutional and if so why? If not, why not? Where does the Public Health model supercede an individual right? When should it?

wolavka (11/20/2000; 4:57:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 41801)
example of things to come
North Austin: Home of tech west, seeing homes pop up loss of jobs, running for cover. It's starting , which liars in news media.

Zenidea (11/20/2000; 4:32:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 41800)
(No Subject)
Black Blade , Good to see you on the barrel again !
Others , Life starts at the sise of this full stop. Probably about the same sise as a new cell in our old bodies renewing us every three months to those whom know some basic biology. Sooooooooo I guess unless we wanna die early before we make moral judgements one may like to look in our own backyards .
Anyway; and the metals ?



justamereBear (11/20/2000; 4:23:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 41799)
To all from something more than a cynic


Today I am starting to see a change in attitude in a few of the posts I see here. Frankly I personally have long since passed that point where I would dignify, or indicate approval, by voting in almost any election. What is the point in helping to choose exactly which crook is going to steal your money, or artificially (and unreasonably) over regulate ones life?

I have seen many posts here that moaned on about moral questions, and how the last "X" (usually 8) years have sent the country on its way to hell in a handbasket. The country that I love. Etc. Most of the posts refer to one particular incident in the US, but the moral decay is certainly not restricted to the US, or one particular person or group. How many times have you seen something going down and decided "I am not involved"?

I am not a fan of Aynn Rand. One major reason would be that if she had chopped out about 2/3 of the words presented, it would have been a much better book. However, for the first time, I find myself referring to her "Atlas Shrugged". Do you recall the incident where one of the protagonists, John Galt I think his name was, who was being presented with some kind of document that effectively took away the last remaining vestages of his company and rights. He signed, without much pause for thought. Why? Because it was to late. At that particular time the trend was unstoppable. When one first gets cancer, when it is just one cell, or a few cells gone wild, it is much easier to stop than when you are on your deathbed.

In WW1 Canada lost nearly 20% if its population, killed or wounded. In WW2 the percentage was not quite so great, but still in double digits. Today, the forces groan and moan about the inconvenience of being shipped away from their families, and to actually have deaths on your side is a No-No. Why did men leave the comfort of their home, and go to far off lands to suffer and die? They were a bunch of idealists who thought that some things were worth dying for. (and frankly, one of the reasons I enjoy this site is because there are a much higher than normal percentage of idealists here) The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

Clinton (and which other leader you care to name) did not invent moral decay, he just took it to new heights. He was able to do so because so many times in the early stages, he was not met with a general refusal to play along with this game. I don't know if there are body counts that may be attributable to his gang, but the mere fact that there may be should be cause for horror.

The time for standing up and being counted has long since passed. Taking resposiblity for ones own actions, and care and awareness for our surroundings has slowly eroded in favor of ME, ME, Me. The time for standing up was 50 years ago, or 40 years ago, or 30 years ago. We might have killed the cancer if we had fought it then. Now the trend is simply to pervasive to reverse. I think, at least instinctively, that is why we are gathered here. We see the litany of excesses and moral decay. The sqandering of humanities petroleum resources in less than 100 years, the debasement of our fiat currency (which in itself is a debasement), etc. etc. The death rattle of the way of life as we knew it is in the throat of, particularly the "advanced" nations. For some of the less "advanced", how far can you fall from zero?

We instinctively think that one of the ways that we can save a bit of what is good about this way of life is to own what mankind has traditionally run to in times of crisis, precious metals, and a few will make Y2K type preparations. When you look more closely, this is all about saving ME, and insuring MY comfort in the ensuing meltdown. It is true enough that such plans are a beginning, and I have seen mention of "what would make a better system"? True enough, first one has to survive if one wants to influence later events. However, when the oil runs out, and our medium of exchange collapses, and the population of the earth decreases dramatically because of inceasingly virulant disease, and, and, and, what plans are being talked about to, for instance, save knowledge, which will surely disappear as the populace struggles with the immediate problem of staying alive? Oh yes, we do have the Gutenburg (sp) project, and that is fine as far as it goes. Do you think that everyone will hold the library of Congress sacred if there is no other way of keeping warm? All that paper will make a fine source of heat. But for humanity, the value lies on the words on the paper.

Here, where we have such a forward looking group of thinkers, I am amazed how caught up in minutae of the day everyone is, with scarcely a look in the general direction of what will happen after fiat collapses, or any one of a number of calamities that could occur. Everyone is looking at the asteroid falling, hoping it will miss earth, and next trying to calculate where it might fall, and trying to devise ways of blowing it up with nukes, but no one seems to be looking at the next predictable event. If it falls on water, you heave a big sigh of relief, but are not looking for the huge 500 0r thousand foot tidal wave which was created by that impact, that races around the world creating destruction everywhere, and which is almost a certainty.

In my opinion. we are in for a catastrophy that is not even imaginable by most people alive today. Where does the ripple go next?

Personally, I don't think that much can be done about the present circumstances, and I am not willing to waste my energy trying to set the clock back. I want to think about what is best for humanity down the road and expend my energies and resources to making that future as bright as possible.

j'Bear



ORO (11/20/2000; 3:44:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 41798)
DaveC - mothers and babies
All species will sacrifice the young in favor of preserving the mother because the mother is necessary for the prior, current and future generations. Where the mother will defend her young, and fiercely, she will also abandon any number of them if they are unlikely to survive because of disease or nutrition.

Modern attitude afforded babies is not natural and is quite beyond irrational. The mother precedes the baby, and is the precondition for its existence and for the existence of further babies. There is no substance to the notion of a baby being a fully fledged human. It is physically within another person, and no others can care for it until it is outside its mother. Up to that point it is no more human than the mother's liver. It is part of her body and completely subject to her wishes. Dependency does not make the provider the slave of the dependent.

The only choice we can argue about is whether a viable but unwanted baby is delivered rather than aborted; to allow the doctor to deliver rather than abort. The mother has the choice of whether to remove the baby or not, and has that choice throughout her pregnancy - and that is a matter of practical reality, she can get rid of the baby whether there is or is not a law forbidding it. In the case of an unwanted baby being delivered rather than aborted because of the doctor's choice, the mother is not at all responsible for the child.

When living standards were not as high as they are today, babies were often stressed to check their strength and to make sure the investment the parents will be making will not be wasted on a weak child that will not survive. Today, a child can be adopted and many charities and government agencies exist to take care of the unwanted children. There is no need to force children upon unwilling parents who had not made the choice to have them.

The facts of life are that a law forbidding abortion would have to make each female of child bearing age a suspect. Though it would prevent many from carrying through with an abortion because of the dangers of ilicit abortions, many more women will be accused of either having an abortion or conspiring to have one than babies would be "saved". Since most abortions are sought by mothers rather than just mothers to be, a law making abortions ilegal will have the effect of making more children motherless.

Mothers are not created for babies, babies are created by mothers for mother's purposes.

For those arguing from the constitution, take into account that the bill of rights does not enumerate all the rights but some of the rights. We do have a full right to do with our bodies as we please, and to have done to them whatever we like if we find someone capable and willing to do so.




Oilman (11/20/2000; 1:41:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 41797)
Was I hit with a curved ball!
Over the weekend, I was in discussion with a group of friends. I don't know from where the question came from, but a female friend hit me with the question:"What does POG stand for?" Great I, thought, I know the answer to that one. Of course, it's "price of gold". An accountant in the group confirmed the answer when he was asked in turn. I should have guessed there was an alternative answer, especially coming from an ex nurse. Turns out it is "post orgasmic glow"!

Black Blade (11/20/2000; 1:09:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 41796)
Kuwaitis tell Richardson to "Stuff It!"
Kuwait tells industrial nations to let market forces
set oil price

KUWAIT CITY (AFP) - - Kuwaiti Oil Minister Sheikh Saud Nasser al-Sabah Saturday called on industrialized countries to allow market forces to work to determine oil prices. "Industrialized countries had always asked us to allow market forces to work. Now, we are demanding the same. (It is a process of) supply and demand," Sheikh Saud told reporters on return from Riyadh, where he attended a global energy forum. "I believe that having a fixed price for oil is difficult, if not impossible, to achieve," he said. "The current situation is what the oil market demands, and any calls to fix the price are simply wishes."

The United States and Europe sounded a warning to oil producers on Saturday that soaring crude prices are damaging the world economy, particularly in developing nations. US Energy Secretary Bill Richardson, a hardline proponent of OPEC production hikes, led the charge by calling for oil at 20-25 dollars a barrel. He noted the cartel still had the "capacity to lower prices" despite four output increases this year. "Thirty dollars is excessively high," Richardson told a press conference on the second day of the 7th International Energy Forum in the capital of Saudi Arabia, the world's biggest producer and exporter.

But Sheikh Saud stressed that the international oil market is stable and that OPEC has decided not to increase production until January 17. "The market, as we see it, is stable. We have decided (at OPEC's November 12 meeting) not to hike output until our next January 17 meeting, when we will review the market situation and take suitable decisions. "We had been careful in our past decisions to make prices at 22-28 dollars a barrel. But we noticed that demand for oil was increasing. Now demand and supply are equal," Sheikh Saud said.

However, the Kuwaiti minister warned that oil prices may collapse in the first quarter of next year if stocks increase. "We must be cautious against a possible process of stockpiling, which may push oil prices down in the first quarter of next year. This is a highly important issue," he said. Prices have soared above 35 dollars in recent weeks and remain well above 30 dollars on concerns mainly about supplies, worsened by Middle East tensions and fears over Iraqi intentions.




DaveC (11/20/2000; 0:52:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 41795)
On Censorship and Courage
From a friend named goldilocks:

One of the most salient aspects of cults is the uniformity of thought. Another is the desire to remain accepted by the group at all costs. Censorship targets and reinforces both.

I believe it is going to take great courage to maintain personal integrity and independence in the world that is coming to us. Every one of us is going to have to take a stand and decide which side of the line he is on. For some, it might be painful, for others fatal. Each one of us will be tested and find out what he is made of.

It frightens me to see grown men back down and accept a limitation on their own minds in order to avoid banishment from a group. I had always thought that it was the women to whom the group was most important. Each time that such a compromise is made, a little piece of the individual dies. The bars of the jail, instead of being external, become internal. The choice is made to abandon one's own self in order to be accepted by a group which has somehow become more important than one's own integrity. To even watch a man grappling with this concept is frightening to me. As a woman, I vestigially depend on men to protect me, to set the tone, to show courage. Such men are disappearing before my eyes. The ones that are left are being constantly ridiculed, bullied, and banished. Often, when I look around, I am the bravest person in the room.

Joe Lieberman was on national tv this morning making what I considered a fool of himself. He talked out of both sides of his mouth. Even he seemed uncomfortable with what he was saying. Every vote matters, but only certain votes. We need to discern the intent of each voter, but not on each vote. The issue of the military ballots has muddied the ideological waters. His position was , quite frankly, impossible. And he knew it. He has compromised himself for the highest prize in the land, but he is not totally there yet like the practiced liars who are handling him. When faced with his inconsistencies, he looked somewhat helpless and shrugged. He is straddling the line, hoping against hope that it will soon be over and he won't have to make a choice that is abhorrent to him.

I am not able in today's world to say the above things without risk. In certain places I would be banished. In other places, I would be called anti-semitic. Soon, or maybe even now, I would be arrested for a hate crime. Should Lieberman be given special status to lie to me with impunity because of his religious or racial background? Should I be silenced in revealing what my heart tells me is true because of his special status? Should I turn my back on myself to be accepted in a world I hardly recognize and want no part of rewarding? I am not willing to do this.

Where are my male counterparts? What happened to the courageous men?


DaveC (11/20/2000; 0:32:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 41794)
SteveH (11/19/2000; 20:00:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 41778)
response from a friend
Steve, your friend misses is wrapped up in the science and misses the points. By wrapping this subject up in "a woman's rights" and "legal age", etc, etc, he fails to understand the moral implications and how unnatural the whole thing is. Where is in nature does a mother put herself ahead of her children? Does not happen. He obviously considers himself a "technoman" where I am an "analogman."

Thanks for passing my message along though. It's interesting to see the responses since my own family and friends gave none.






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