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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 11/19/2002
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

(Yesterday's Discussion.)

steady (11/19/02; 23:27:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 89918)
who does ownthe federal reserve for golden boy!
http://www.rense.com/general24/whocontrolsfed.htm
first of all the article use to be on this site
http://www.victorthorn.com/babel/issue55/federalreserve5
but it seems not to be there any more so i had to go to plan b193 and find it here (hahaha chumps trying to get rid of it)


Who Controls The
Federal Reserve System?
By Victor Thorn
5-9-2

Now that we know the Federal Reserve is a privately owned, for-profit corporation, a natural question would be: who OWNS this company? Peter Kershaw provides the answer in "Economic Solutions" where he lists the ten primary shareholders in the Federal Reserve banking system.

1) The Rothschild Family - London 2) The Rothschild Family - Berlin 3) The Lazard Brothers - Paris 4) Israel Seiff - Italy 5) Kuhn-Loeb Company - Germany 6) The Warburgs - Amsterdam 7) The Warburgs - Hamburg 8) Lehman Brothers - New York 9) Goldman & Sachs - New York 10) The Rockefeller Family - New York

Now I don't know about you, but something is terribly wrong with this situation. Namely, don't we live in AMERICA? If so, why are seven of the top ten stockholders located in FOREIGN countries? That's 70%! To further convey how screwed-up this system is, Jim Marrs provides the following data in his phenomenal book, "Rule By Secrecy." He says that the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, which undeniably controls the other eleven Federal Reserve branches, is essentially controlled by two financial institutions:

1) Chase-Manhattan (controlled by the Rockefellers) - 6,389,445 shares - 32.3%
2) Citbank - 4,051,851 shares - 20.5%

Thus, these two entities control nearly 53% of the New York Federal Reserve Bank. Doesn't that boggle your mind? Now, considering how many trillions of dollars are involved here, and how the bankers are WAY above our "selected" officials in Washington, D.C., do you think the above-listed banks and families have an inordinate amount of say-so in how our country is being run? The answer is blindingly apparent.

Where does the money come from?

We all know that the Federal Reserve CORPORATION prints money - then loans it, at interest, to our government. But wait until you see what a total scam this process is. But before we get to the meat of this issue, let's remember one thing about the very essence of banking - primarily that money should have some type of standard upon which its value is based. In the case of America, we operate on what is called a "gold standard" (i.e. our money is backed by gold).

So, with that in mind, let's look at how money is actually created, and at what cost. If the Federal Reserve wants to print 1,000 one-hundred ($100) bills, their total cost for ink, paper, plates, labor, etc. would be approximately $23.00 (according to Davvy Kidd in "Why A Bankrupt America"). Now, if you do the math, the total cost of 10,000 bills would be $230.00 ($.023 x 10,000). But, and here's the catch - 10,000 $100 bills equals $1,000,000! So, the Federal Reserve can "create" a million dollars, then LEND it to the U.S. Government (with interest) for a total cost of $230.00! That's not a bad deal, huh!

The banking industry calls this process "seignorage." I call it outright THEFT. Why? Well, regardless of the immense profit margin ($1,000,000 for $230), plus the huge interest payments, our government then needs to STEAL the American people's money to payoff their debts via a Mob-like agency called the IRS. So the bankers steal from the government, then the government turns around and steals from the people. I'm no genius, but who do you think is getting screwed in this process? US - the people at the bottom rung of the ladder.

What's worse is that - now catch your breath - there's NO MORE gold left in Fort Knox! It's all gone. In other words, the GOLD STANDARD that our financial system was based upon is now an illusion. We can't convert our money into gold --- only other currency. The entire underlying basis for our money is now a lie - a sham. The Federal Reserve has become so arrogant that they've become a literal MONEY MAKING MACHINE, creating currency out of thin air! So that's where the Fed gets their money - they literally make it, then lend it to us so they can make even MORE money off of it.

Money As A Religion

The above-detailed process has become so ridiculous that William Grieder, former assistant managing editor of the Washington Post, wrote a book in 1987 entitled, "Secrets of the Temple: How the Federal Reserve Runs the Country" that details how the Controllers have conditioned us to accept this absurd situation.

"To modern minds," he writes, "it seemed bizarre to think of the Federal Reserve as a religious institution. Yet the conspiracy theorists, in their own demented way, were on to something real and significant. The Fed did also function in the realm of religion. Its mysterious powers of money creation, inherited from priestly forebears, shielded a complex bundle of social and psychological meanings. With its own form of secret incantation, the Federal Reserve presided over awesome social ritual, transactions so powerful and frightening they seemed to lie beyond common understanding."

Mr. Grieder continues, "Above all, money was a function of faith. It required implicit and universal social consent that was indeed mysterious. To create money and use it, each one must believe, and everyone must believe. Only then did worthless pieces of paper take on value."

Do you get it? MONEY is an ILLUSION! Why? Because the gold standard upon which our money is supposed to be based has been eliminated. There's no more gold in Fort Knox. It's all GONE! Now, money really IS only paper!!! In the past, money was supposed to represent something of tangible value. Now it's simply paper!

Taken one step further, many of us don't even use paper money any more! Why? Well, here's a scenario. Many places of employment directly deposit their employee's paychecks into the bank. Once the money is there, when bill time comes around, the person in question can write out a stack of checks to pay them. Plus, when they need gasoline they use a credit card; and groceries a debit card. If this person goes out for dinner on Friday night, they can charge the tab on their diner's card. But what about the tip? They simply scribble in the amount at the bottom of the check. So far, the person hasn't spent a single dollar bill. Plus, if you bring electronic banking into the picture, we've virtually eliminated the use for money. And, God forbid, what happens when encoded microchips are implanted into the backs of our hand?

In essence, money has become nothing more than an illusion - an electronic figure or amount on a computer screen. That's it! As time goes on, we have an increasing tendency toward being sucked into this Wizard of Oz vortex of unreality. Think about it. Americans as a whole are carrying more personal debt than in any other time in history. Plus our government keeps going further and further into the hole, with no hope of ever crawling out. But we have less and less actual MONEY! We're being enslaved by the debt of electronic blips on a computer screen! And 70% of the banks that control this debt via the Federal Reserve exist in foreign countries! What in God's name is going on? As author William Bramley says, "The result of this whole system is MASSIVE debt at every level of society."

We're getting screwed in a sickening way, folks, and the people doing it are demented magician-priests that use the ILLUSION of money as their control device. And I hate to say it, but if we allow things to keep going as they are, the situation will only get worse. Our only hope ... ONLY HOPE ... is to immediately take drastic action and remedy this crime.

(to be continued)
http://www.victorthorn.com/babel/issue55/federalreserve5



Buena Fe (11/19/02; 22:49:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 89917)
WASHINGTON (CBS.MW) -- The Senate approved the creation of a massive, Cabinet-level Department of Homeland Security on Tuesday night in a decisive 90-0 vote.
wonder how long our beloved forum will be left alone?

Chris Powell (11/19/02; 22:48:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 89916)
Greenspan hints that something is terribly wrong with derivatives
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/1301
Latest GATA dispatch is commentary
by Bill Murphy.


To subscribe to GATA's dispatches
by email and get them immediately so
you don't have to go look for them,
send an email to:

gata-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

goldenboy (11/19/02; 22:28:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 89915)
Greenspin: Derivatives:Puplava Link: Who Knows Fed Ownership?
I guess the question of bailout will be quickly answered by knowing if JPM, Citigroup and BOA are all shareholders of the FED. If so, the ability to transact derivative contracts are a conflict of interest, Greenspans` making any judgement on bailout is also a conflict, his refusal to restrict derivative trading is a copout. Know matter what happens he can pick some lines from this single speach and tell congress/senate he warned them what could happen.

Buena Fe (11/19/02; 22:26:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 89914)
FOA etc.
mikal (11/19/02; 20:37:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 89907)
Hans Schicht lays bare the US bonds!

great essay, and i would add that the eu/china/russia/opec insiders know this and are just waiting till they have enough of the doppy publics gold (swiss, among others) in hand to pull the plug on the 1978 (jekyll is) designed sharade.

giants ........ just biding their time, patience pays. you don't have to be wise to get a wisemans results, just do what a wise man does and the results will be the same, wisdom is no respecter of persons

Buena Fe (11/19/02; 22:10:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 89913)
Confidence in [Japanese] govt at crisis point
if i was a contrarian bettin man, i'd say it was time to buy me some nikkei calls!

sector (11/19/02; 21:22:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 89912)
Confidence in [Japanese] govt at crisis point
The Market's TOO LOW! We need a capital gains tax cut.
Ryoichi Matsumoto Yomiuri Shimbun Staff Writer

Securities Dealers Association of Japan Chairman Eiichiro Okumoto has expressed deep concern over the recent plunge in stock prices, which he said reflected a lack of confidence in the government's economic policy.

In a recent interview with The Yomiuri Shimbun, Okumoto said the government should take prompt measures to stabilize stock prices, including a tax exemption for capital gains earned from stock transactions.

The Yomiuri Shimbun: What do you think of Monday's plunge in stock prices?

Okumoto: The stock market is in an extremely critical condition. The scale of the recent decline in share prices is unprecedented. In particular, the plunge in bank stocks could have a serious impact on the nation's financial system.

Q: Stock prices have continued to decline even after Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi reshuffled his Cabinet.

A: The problem concerning the government is that it has yet to announce specific measures as called for in its antideflation package. Numerous reforms included in the package have been neglected and the market lacks trust in the government's policies.

Investors are waiting for politicians to give a clear message to halt the decline in stock prices. The policies that have been announced should be developed into effective measures to alleviate market concerns over the nation's economic prospects.

The government should promptly unveil the time frame for its reforms and carry them out quickly, starting with those that can be easily implemented.

Q: What does the Securities Dealers Association of Japan want the government to reform?

A: The Financial Services Agency has asked the Finance Ministry to review the taxation of securities trading to allow taxpayers to consolidate their capital gains or losses on stocks and dividends earned from stocks or investment trusts, calculating these amounts as a combined profit or loss.

The securities industry supports this method of consolidated taxation as a step toward unifying the taxation of financial products in the future.

However, I'm skeptical that this tax reform will overcome the severe decline in the stock market. We need a policy that resurrects the market immediately.

If the government believes that companies should change their main source of funding from indirect to direct financing, it should consider making capital gains on stock transactions of up to 10 million yen tax-free as a temporary measure due to the severe market conditions.

Q: A series of scandals in the securities industry were reported last week. Customer information was found to have been leaked from UFJ Tsubasa Securities Co., and a former division chief at Daiwa Securities SMBC Co. was alleged to have earned about 3.5 million yen in February through insider trading.

A: The incidents were absolutely regrettable. The Daiwa Securities SMBC case was particularly intolerable due to the involvement of an executive of a major brokerage. Corporate ethics are under severe scrutiny with the emergence of such incidents, and countermeasures must be taken to prevent such cases from recurring.
++++++++++++++++++++++
The thieves are always out when the blood is running in the streets.

The "Reforms" discussed are anything but. Meanwhle the rot gets worse and Japanese investors know it. Now the yen has begun a move back to 123.

When it gets to 130 we will see some more gold fireworks but there may be other plans from Greenspan and friends. I smell smoke. Too many "Dots" on the gold landscape.

a nation of one (11/19/02; 21:17:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 89911)
manipulation

The question that needs to be asked about market manipulation is this. If those wanting to control the market were really excellent at it, wouldn't the prices already be where they want them?

The answer has to be 'yes.'

Are the prices where they want them"

The answer has to be 'no,' because, if they were, there would be no manipulation.

This means that their effectiveness is substnatially limited, and it also means that their knowledge of the market is incomplete. This has got to mean that they may not succeed.

I believe that they certainly will not succeed, because the powers that determine the market are very excellent, fully knowledgeable, and don't have to use manipulation to effect prices and trends. The effects of manipulators are temporary. The effects of the real powers behind prices and trends -fundamentals and the natural dynamics of the marketplace- are succeeding already, and the manipulators are mostly just reacting in response to them. Such reactions are not all-powerful. They are indications of substantial weakness.



MK (11/19/02; 21:05:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 89910)
Rich. . .
Just because one has the right to own a gun does not mean that he can use the gun for whatever purpose he deems necessary. Just because a tool or weapon exists, it doesn't mean that it can be used without some moral or legal restriction. If all human action depended upon our own interpretation of right and wrong and that alone, there would be no law and probably no civilization. We do not hestitate to protect ourselves through the body of law from the misuse of tools and/or weapons. Why should we allow the greater good served by the free market to be prostituted by those who would use a financial tool to whatever personal advantage they deem appropriate -- without restriction? I am not certain that I know what steps I would take if given the opporunity to write a law to stem the abuses of derivatives, but there is little doubt in my mind that we need one. I, in fact, would look to someone like Mr. Greenspan to provide direction, not obfuscation, on the issue. He knows of the abuses and talks of them constantly, but turns his head from fear of what stemming those abuses might do the greater economy. Is this what we should expect from a man in his position? When we are confronted with a murder, we don't throw up our hands and say "Well, there you go. No accounting for human nature. Stick a gun in guy's hand and he's apt to kill someone." We throw him in jail or impose worse. . . . .There are legitimate uses for derivatives as well as criminal. We need to find a way to differentiate between the two for the good of the free market.

a nation of one (11/19/02; 21:04:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 89909)
To: R Powell (11/19/02; 19:06:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 89902)

You ask: "What does calmness mean?"

In this case it might mean that everyone is waiting to see what gold is going to do. It is trading in a triangle and will sooner or later have to break out. It seems realistic to expect that the event will be upward. If so, the trend will be set.




R Powell (11/19/02; 20:40:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 89908)
Clarification
I feel I should add that my last thought in no way detracts from all the qualities of gold that sets gold apart from the risks inherent in all other financial assets.
I just wanted to state an opinion that if war, monetary crisis, political turmoil, the price of oil, civil unrest, etc. can (and do) change the value of gold, then the value is derived from these events or the potential (real or perceived) of these events occuring. In this sense, gold's value is a derivative of these events or a derivative of the potential of these events occuring.
Nothing exists in a vaccuum.
Rich

mikal (11/19/02; 20:37:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 89907)
Hans Schicht lays bare the US bonds!
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_02/schicht112102.html
The Long Bond Mystery
Excerpts:
Life is change. Life means constant vying for growth, expansion, assertion and survival by constant re-positioning, and in-direct or direct aggression. What counts in nature, that counts for human history, for the individual, enterprises, finance and the State. There is never respite for long. Life is fluid and all events are interrelated. And although temporary stagnation or imbalances do occur, they are bound to correct in time. The longer stagnation or the imbalance lasts, the more violent the corrections to be.
To come to grasp with what is going on in the world today, it is necessary to understand that at present we are living through exactly such period of stagnation and imbalances. Since the second world war, the overhanging threat of nuclear war has created an unusual prolongation of the peace period generally experienced between wars.
..... With the Treasury dragging its feet already for over half a century and not allowing an independent audit of Fort Knox, we cannot assume else than that Fort Knox must be empty, till proved otherwise.
Not only is trust in Wall Street evaporating, but so is all trust in Washington. Serious doubts are rising about the reliability and trustworthiness of all government releases, their inflation figures, job statistics, CPI and PPI etc., inclusive the straightforwardness of official statements. We are wondering what else is still to come.
There are well founded suspicions that the stock markets, the currency markets, as well as the precious metal markets are regularly subject to manipulative intervention accompanied by planted news releases. Not in a haphazard and opportunistic manner, but in ways coordinated between the main financial institutions, the Treasury, and the Federal Reserve.
.....And last but not least, why is it that the mother bubble of all credit bubbles has not yet collapsed? .....I have a deep rooted suspicion, that in the mid nineties, a mechanism was established, probably on advice of Rubin, with the aim to underpin the value of the US government bonds by interfering directly in the bond market and which action would simultaneously create unlimited liquidity.
At the same time as there must have been a secret mechanism put into place by the ESF, the Treasury and the FED to depress the gold price in the mid nineties, a special off-balance sheet fund looks likely to have been created by the FED, with the purpose to stabilize and to control fluctuations of the treasury bonds, through a gradual monetization of the long bond, on the home market.
It should be remembered that bond trading on the home market does not have direct influence on the exchange rate. Whereas bond trading outside the US borders, yes, will affect the rate.
Regarding foreign exchange, all dollars circulating outside the borders of the United States and all the dollar bonds held by foreigners should be seen as one and the same package of claims outstanding against the United States. And as the bonds in the package represent the bulk of the package, they do carry a greater weight by far in the valuation of the dollar rate of exchange, than the total amount of current accounts in dollars and cash held by foreigners.
Under normal, free market, conditions, the fluctuations in the dollar interest rates are the ones, which determine the market value of the US bonds. However, if my suspicions turn out to be justified, then the FED, in addition to its published official bond dealings inclusive the repos, has turned the market upside down by having begun buying back the long bond directly through such secret off-balance sheet fund. Upside down, because not any longer would the interest rates be setting the bond prices, but the bonds would now set the interest rates!
Such account or fund would underpin the long bond on the sly, simply by reducing the amount of bonds in circulation. Under the condition that all buy-backs would be executed on the home market, so as not to endanger the dollar exchange rates.
Foreigners will always be happy to hold dollars and dollar bonds, as long as they keep up their value and there is no alternative like gold or silver. But not to worry, in a world of free flowing capital, a stronger bond at home is bound to reflect automatically on overseas markets.
No suspicions would arise, as long as the FED would keep the bonds bought back in their unpublished special account and, at the same time, would still count them as existing. The same trick as seems to be the case with the IMF gold accounts!
Armed with such fund, the FED would be able to keep up, and a strong dollar, and a strong bond and still have plenty of liquidity left for other manipulations like the stock market or the gold market, till the time would come, that either people would realize what is happening, or the FED on the home market would run out of bonds to redeem, or the political pressure for a weaker dollar would become so strong that the FED would have to abandon the undercover action.
.....The world now finds itself in a most precarious situation, where the finances of nearly all nations are anchored to the American dollar through their reserves, which for the greater part are held in US government bonds.
But in reality, this anchor, assembled from packages of paper bonds, is nothing more but a fragile, drifting raft which is only able to stay afloat by regularly throwing packages of the same bonds over board it consists of, each time a next wave of financial instability is building, threatening to sink the paper raft.
The whole world depending on just one fragile floating anchor? Where have the gold and the silver, the solid anchors of old times gone?
Hans Schicht
November 21, 2002
All copyright waved as long as author will be mentioned.


goldquest (11/19/02; 20:23:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 89906)
Alan Sez
http://www.federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/speeches/2002/20021119/default.htm
With a loss of $8 Trillion of stock market wealth, our economy is still growing! HUH? Alan? Alan? Hello Alan?

R Powell (11/19/02; 20:21:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 89905)
Derivatives
M.K., if we assume that the desire is to surpress the POG and derivatives were not available to accomplish this end, would not another means be found? The simple fixing or London Gold Pool come to mind.
If murder is intended and the revolver is not available, won't the knife, the rope or the candlestick do?
Derivatives are financial tools often used for legitimate hedging but, like most tools, the end result of their use is determined (derived) by their handler or user. I think of them as dogs that can be useful companions or trained killers depending upon the intent and training of their master.

However the sentiment turns toward derivatives, I have always questioned the idea that anyone can put a notational value on large derivative positions without specifically knowing the total position (all physical holdings, future and options positions). It may very well be that thousands of futures positions are hedged with physical or options. Future sales or buys may be offset with present or future positions or physical. Options offset futures or futures offset options or physical, options and futures all nearly offset. I could give examples of positions where the tremendous risk is totally offset and the position exists only to collect some premium from sold long term out-of-the-money options. Premium collected, otherwise, total paper position nearly neutral. Tens of thousands of different positions may be offsetting to the point of almost totally canceling out. Add to the mix different expiration dates, hedging with mining stock or long or short positions on the XAU index and then add that all derivative positions are ever in motion so that a mark-to-market value is valid only for an instant in time and..... My point is, notional numerical risk is imho impossible to calculate. Maybe short paper gold positions are merely a hedge for short dollar index positions? Not likely, but this too is a hedged derivataive position so how can "risk" be assigned to the gold shorts without considering the profit from the dollar index gain? Yes, POG up and the dollar index also up would place both sides of the hedge underwater. There are no foolproof systems for anyone.
Also, I'm discussing the hedging of the derivative paper game only- the paper game where 98% of all transactions are settled in fiat- NOT physical that may have been leased and is now gone. This may indeed be impossible to replace in physical form.
I present this line of thought as my opinion that derivatives like guns are neither ethically or morally right or wrong, good or evil. The user of the tool determines the outcome. I'm also NOT suggesting that derivatives are without risk- I trade derivatives- the risk is tremendous, perhaps even obscene. One philosopher (existentialist, I think) once made a statement about God that also fits nicely the derivative tool. "If God (derivatives) did not exist, it would be necessary for man to invent Him (them). No disrespect intended toward religion but the analogy works.
If not for derivatives, POG would still be manipulated somehow and the opportunity would still be present. Without derivatives those trying to surpress individual freedom and liberty with monetary control would still be among us also. The battle never ends.
Indeed, the very sound idea that gold ownership is good financial insurance against a possible future monetary crisis, places gold in the hedge category. It serves as a hedge (insurance) against the storm and a prudent one at that with likely monetary gains above and beyond inflation price movement. It truely is a unique holding but, because it may derive value from other political or monetary events as well then ....Well, what is the defination of a derivative?
Rich



Sierra Madre (11/19/02; 19:42:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 89904)
Fred on Everything....this guy talks a lot of plain common sense
www.fredoneverything.com

He ends one of his terrific diatribes with:

"Nothing lasts forever, not even America. A fascinating question is when and how it will stop lasting."

You read this, and you stop worrying about when gold will break loose. It certainly will, and life will not be pretty when it does.

You won't want to be noticed, in those times.

Sierra



kramrich (11/19/02; 19:22:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 89903)
Fed bailout.
I don't think the Fed can state their position any clearer as to what they will do if the likes of JPM run into trouble with their derivatives. Greenspan's statement "a cascading sequence of defaults that will culminate in financial implosion if it proceeds unchecked'' can only mean Fed bailout when he says "unchecked".

R Powell (11/19/02; 19:06:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 89902)
Calm
After looking at some numbers today (commodity prices and stock indexes) and watching/reading some news both political and financial, I was reminded of the proverbial "calm before the storm".
Others next door were discussing the volume of post entries as an indicator of the direction of the price of gold. I believe Hamilton (Zealots) has mentioned the mood of the goldbugs on different forums as a leading contrary price indicator with shouts of "to da moon" announcing near term tops and bickering and disagreements calling the bottoms. Right now, they too seem calm.
What does calmness mean? What does low price movement mean with a full moon? Does this mean I'm completely finished with midlife crises and have entered "old" age? Have I flown over the Cookoo's nest or passed the signpost into the twilight zone? Or, is Paplava's storm about ready to make landfall? Or, none of the above.
Rich

MK (11/19/02; 18:59:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 89901)
El Gordo. . .Greenspan & Derivatives
I have always admired Alan Greenspan -- from his days before he was Fed chairman and spoke at gold conferences to the present. However, I will always question his thinking and policy with respect to derivatives. I believe that the true conservative position on derivatives is to opt for regulation in that the proliferation and uses of derivatives has undermined the free market process. That is my starting point. And we gold owners and advocates probably understand that better than anyone. How can we (Americans) allow a highly capitalized financial institution with billions at it disposal undermine (counter) the intent of millions of individuals wanting to move a market in one direction or the other simply because it has the balance sheet to do it? I believe it is his responsibility, if anyone's, to point these dangers out to the public -- not cover it up. How can we pretend that a free market exists in financial instruments, including gold, when the will of the market masses is sublimated to that of the Strong Entity (where capital is concentrated and directed sometimes by a single, self-serving individual) and essentially where the individual profits in the market only at the larger entity's direct and behest -- trend investing at its ignoble apogee. So it gets down to Sir Alan stating, if the report you cite is correct, that we should stay statutorily out of the way of derivatives as long as we let the "gun-slingers" know that the Fed won't bail them out. An odd policy. . . .

Simple question, Mr. Greenspan:

Are you telling us that you would not bail out JP Morgan if it got down to it? I understand that LTCM is one thing -- it is not essential to the operation of the economy. Same with Enron. But what about JP Morgan? Or Citibank? Are you telling us that the Fed would not bail those banks out? If so, I think the world should know about it. Or does that all change when you get the "phone call." Which phone call? The one from Sandy Weil that starts with "Um. . . .Alan. . . We've got a little problem over here that you should know about. . . . ."

Paper Avalanche (11/19/02; 18:51:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 89900)
@ steady
You are probably reading this on Wednesday morning to see what you posted the night before. If it makes you feel any better there have been more than a couple of Saturdays when I have done the same.

Take care.

PA

Sierra Madre (11/19/02; 18:45:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 89899)
Bank of America to fire 900 workers to reduce costs....
Thanks B.B., for that link. You know, sometimes I actually feel sorry for these banksters - the corporate set-up employs so many yes-men, there are no thinkers there. Thinking is dangerous to bankers' employment.

900 workers to reduce costs? After tens of billions down the pipes in pipe-dream investments?

Really, this reminds me of a house on fire, and the resident couple saves a living room lamp!

And you see banks doing this regularly, these days. The ship is torpedoed and they are bailing with little buckets.
Makes them feel like they are accomplishing something.

Sierra



steady (11/19/02; 18:24:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 89898)
see that why ilove thsi site
state an opinion, ask a question, it gets answered, replyed to. just like the fire proves gold is gold. dialogue helps refine ideas, rember marx and hegle dialectiacl materialism. some how i think that fits in with the time we are seeing. empires, collonialism, imperialism, communism vs capitalism(derivitism) now the trend we are seeing (the opposite of capitalism(derivitism) is yet to be named mabey it will be goldism when the dinar and dirham do there job with the worlds financila wheels!
thanks for the answer though to the question!

ElGordo (11/19/02; 18:20:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 89897)
Iraq may have "difficulties" meeting Dec 8 deadline
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/politics/story.jsp?story=353927
Such is the scale of information the UN is demanding, Iraqi officials told Mr Blix's team they may have difficulties meeting the 8 December deadline by which they must submit a detailed report.

Mr Blix said yesterday the Iraqis had assured him they would do "everything humanly possible" to comply with the new UN resolution on its supposed arsenal of weapons of mass destruction.

The Iraqis were reminded that a failure to meet the deadline would, almost certainly, be seen by the United States as a "material breach" of the resolution and clear the way for an attack. "That seemed to concentrate their minds," said a diplomatic source.
__________
Let the Dance Begin!


ElGordo (11/19/02; 17:54:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 89896)
Greenspan warns on derivatives (Red Alert)
http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?mnu=news&ptitle=Economy%20UK&tp=ad_uknews&T=news_storypage99.ht&ad=uk_economy&s=APdqc.RXoR3JlZW5z
Washington, Nov. 19 (Bloomberg) -- Governments must be careful not to over-regulate financial derivatives and central banks should not give the impression they will always bail out institutions if those instruments fail, Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan said.

Derivatives, such as futures and options, are based on other assets and used to insure against price swings. They have become ``central'' to global growth because they make it easier to take risks, Greenspan told the Council on Foreign Relations.

At the same time, derivatives' reliance on leverage creates the ``remote'' possibility of a chain reaction of failure, ``a cascading sequence of defaults that will culminate in financial implosion if it proceeds unchecked,'' he said.

Fed officials feared that could happen following the September 1998 collapse of Long Term Capital Management, a hedge fund which lost $4 billion mainly from wrong bets on differences between bond and futures prices. While the Fed didn't use its lender of last resort power by putting money into the firm, the central bank helped organize a rescue by Wall Street banks and other creditors.

``Such a public subsidy should be reserved for only the rarest of occasions,'' Greenspan said. ``If the owners or managers of private financial institutions were to anticipate being propped up frequently by government support, it would only encourage reckless and irresponsible practices.''

Gauging Risk

The increased use of derivatives has helped lenders better gauge risk because the possibility of default is built into their price, Greenspan said.

In recent months, derivative interest rates have risen on concerns about corporate governance, he said. ``The perceived risk of default of both financial and nonfinancial firms has risen markedly in the wake of company-threatening scandals, though levels remain moderate for both.''
_______________
We shall see how the new derivatives system works in the biggest
debt spiral ever. More and more discussion of pension funding
problems on CNBC. Funding pensions will eat into earnings.

ElGordo (11/19/02; 17:38:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 89895)
CRB will make new highs on rising energy costs
http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=NYBOT_CRY0&v=d12
NEW YORK (CBS.MW) -- Crude oil was little changed after a weekly U.S. report released late Tuesday revealed that U.S. petroleum supplies continued to tighten last week, but only by modest amounts.

The American Petroleum Institute reported that crude supplies fell by 189,000 barrels to 283.8 million barrels during the week ended Nov. 15.

The institute also upwardly revised the prior week's total by 1.2 million barrels, setting the decline for the week ended Nov. 8 at a smaller, but still large 6 million barrels.

Tim Evans, a senior analyst at IFR Pegasus in New York, expected a 1 million- to 3 million-barrel rise, but Alaron.com senior analyst Phil Flynn forecasted a 3 million-barrel decline.

The petroleum market is taking the news as "cautiously bullish," said Flynn. Even with the upward revision to last week's inventories, "supplies across the board are tight," he said.

Crude inventories are still 25 million barrels below the year-ago level, according to the API's data.

Distillate inventories, which include heating oil, fell back by 299,000 barrels to 123 million barrels, the API said, compared to the 500,000 barrel to 1.5 million-barrel fall expected by Evans. Flynn expected a rise of 1 million barrels.

The API also posted a 134,000-barrel decline in motor gasoline stocks to total 195 million barrels. Evans predicted a decline of as much as 1 million barrels, while Flynn expected a rise of 2 million barrels.

"Supplies in every major category are continuing not to build and that's going to come into play at some point," said Flynn.
-----------
From Friday to Monday, the National Weather Service forecast went from forecasting predominantly warmer than normal temperatures to seeing below normal readings for the whole of the East, according to IFR Pegasus' Evans, who noted that private forecasters also changed their predictions.

The conflicting reports "calls into question the longer-term outlook," he said.

Fimat analysts expected the Energy Department on Thursday to report that natural-gas inventories during the week ended Nov. 15 fell by 28 billion cubic feet, although estimates range from a fall of 20 billion to a rise of 18 billion cubic feet. Evans sees a 10 billion to 30 billion withdrawal.
________
CRB rising indicates inflation pressures rising. The forecast is for
an increase of 20% for heating costs this winter. This rise in energy costs will bump up inflation rate.

Black Blade (11/19/02; 17:19:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 89894)
STRATEGY UPSET
http://www.nypost.com/business/62433.htm

Snippit:

Wall Street's best-known cheerleaders are afraid they'll be tossed completely out of the money game. Investment gurus at top brokerages have become the market's latest endangered species, falling one by one in a rising public backlash against the rosy outlooks the gurus have wrongly painted. Sources say some of the celebrity investment strategists who are running scared include Abby Joseph Cohen at Goldman Sachs, Joe Battipaglia at Ryan Beck, Byron Wien at Morgan Stanley and Al Goldman at A.G. Edwards. Another bull market champion said to be under the gun is John Ryding, the chief market economist at Bear Stearns, who was the only major strategist to predict the Federal Reserve wouldn't cut rates earlier this month. The Fed instead cut rates more deeply than economists expected due to the bad slump.

"Why pay a seven-figure salary and put someone on TV to make a star out of them just to get orders flowing?" said one veteran investor. "No one listens to them anymore - they're almost a liability." "It's a good thing the firms didn't put their own money into their strategies, or they'd be bankrupt now," the investor added. The investor compared their work to a cliché. "Their records are like the broken clock - it's right twice a day. Well, Wall Street is just throwing out its broken clocks and saving a bundle."


Black Blade: the "rocket scientists" who run the Wall Street investment firms took several years to figure out that these pimps couldn't get the market right. Nearly every last one missed the bear market when it should have been obvious to the average investor. Better late than never.



Cavan Man (11/19/02; 17:04:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 89893)
Brett Woods
Malaysia's response is motivated by "self preservation". The nation sees the same monetary storm (building for many years) we do. The Dinar is their response and it dovetails nicely with Islam. I wouldn't read anymore into it than that. The Euro is the EU's response. China and England have likely made their decisions though not yet public. The individual gold holder responds likewise. Make your stand and make it count. Contingency plans are in various stages of implementation (globally). IMVHO..CM

Brett Woods (11/19/02; 16:50:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 89892)
"Malaysia places gold on global faultline"
http://www.mips1.net/mgan.nsf/Current/85256C3300290CD485256C760013661D?OpenDocument
Tim Wood is way out in left field in his analysis of the Malaysian PM's speech. Religious geopolitical bs aside, maybe Tim should draw a year/public debt graph from Hippleback's link before he talks about who's blowing smoke.

TW "His (PM's) view on gold is less conventional and borders on the whacky:

PM "If we want to avoid being short-changed we must have a currency that has intrinsic value. Gold does fluctuate in price but the fluctuation is minimal. It is not possible to devalue gold by one hundred percent or one thousand percent. Nor is it possible to revalue gold by the same percentage."

TW "That depends entirely on a government exercising absolute sovereignty over the metal..."

How can he ignore the PM's point that gold has an intrinsic value which hasn't fluctuated much since the Babylonians invented writing? A very wealthy man may be ransomed for his weight in gold then and now. "absolute sovereignty" huh? You have to dig an f'ing great hole to get it, its real hard work and it's hard to find. That's why everybody doesn't have it. Not because of government control (or lack of it). How wacky is that.

Forget what the dinar would be valued at in other currencies. The PM is suggesting that Malaysia, a net exporter should ask for shinola in exchange for its exports. If a buying country doesn't want to pay in shinola, it may offer to barter.

"You wanna crate of shirts? fine, give that paper with the magic pictures on it to some more dopey sucker and trade it for something I can trade here, like, let's see, the government has given me a list of commodities that it is stockpiling and trading for dinars..."

And the deflation thing? Okay, let's say in 1980, 10 ounces of gold could be traded for a Firebird. Today, 10 ounces of gold is traded just for the aero kit for that Firebird. So the nation trading only in gold and commodities would be in a horrible position like Argentina, right Tim?

What part doesn't he get? All their exports would inflate. i.e. 1980: "Ton of shirts will cost you a Firebird" 2001: "Ton of shirts?" "will cost you...let's see now... a Firebird buddy, same as before!" Do not want to pay a Firebird buddy? That is fine. I take shinola also. I read somewhere in your mining web that since 1996 the shinola is cheap for you. Therefore, you should have no problems paying me huh?

This is an example of the rest of the world waking up to the implications of dollar hegemony and deciding to do something about it.

Myself, I don't have than my simple opinions on it. I think big wheels keep on turning and they began to roll long before me and will continue to go on their own way. If I'm a "Gold Bug" (actually I thought I was just an investor, then I hope that being a "Gold Bug" doesn't also classify me as anti-North American which is what Tim Wood seems to imply in the wrap up to his article.



TownCrier (11/19/02; 16:29:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 89891)
steady, the emphasis is on the trend
Hello steady, thanks for the candid observation.

When I stuck those graphs side by side to accompany the text that had been prepared for me by MK, MK immediately said the same thing to me -- that they showed different lengths of history and might therefore come under attack. He suggested that I alter them to simply show only the last year for each.

Well, steady, you've just made a liar out of me. I told MK that his concern was unnecessary -- I told him that our readers would recognize that the emphasis of the message was the TREND as it exists today. It is clearly spotlighted in the title, and is highlighted (in red) in the opening sentence:
"the primary trend in gold is up", and
"the primary trend in stocks is down".

I said, sure, we could focus on that steep and dramatic fall in the DOW that occurred over the past year. However, I felt it would be more instructive to our readers to show how truly compelling and entrenched the down trend was by highlighting the successively lower lows for the past three years instead of the past one year on the DOW. I hope you will agree that the trend, thus shown, is indeed unmistakable.

Similarly, the goal of the gold chart was simply to show evidence of the up trend as it exists today. Sure, I could have taken it way back to April 2001 to include the $256 low, but that seemed unnecessary, and further, I could not easily get an ino.com chart that went that far back.

Again, I am convinced that a majority our readers saw that message as it was intended -- as evidence of the unmistakeable trends in place today -- trends that might help them to form their investment decisions being made today.

To merely focus on similar time periods is a commonly employed cheap trick to effectively say "I told you so... this investment is better than that investment over this [carefully selected period of] time". Our emphasis right here right now, however, is to show what is likely in your best interest among the current trends of these alternatives. Fair enough?

Randy

Black Blade (11/19/02; 16:06:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 89890)
S. Koreans' Credit-Card Binge Fuels Defaults, Threatens Banks
http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?ptitle=Top%20Financial%20News&s1=blk&tp=ad_topright_topfin&T=markets_box.ht&s2=ad_right1_topfin&bt=ad_position1_topfin&box=ad_box_all&tag=financial&middle=ad_frame2_topfin&s=APdkczRVCUy4gS29y

Snippit:

Seoul, Nov. 19 (Bloomberg) -- Shin Keun Soo works in one of South Korea's fastest-growing industries: consumer bankruptcy. The counselor at Seoul's Personal Debt Recovery Service, which opened last month, has advised about 600 people who can't pay their credit-card bills. That's a tiny fraction of the nation's 2.5 million credit-card delinquents this year -- one in 10 salaried workers.

Black Blade: Ah, the American way crops up in S. Korea. As always, get out of debt and stay out of debt, stash enough emergency cash for several months expenses, accumulate Gold and Silver portfolio insurance, and start a storage program of nonperishable food and basic necessities.



Black Blade (11/19/02; 16:05:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 89889)
Yen Falls to Three-Year Low Against Euro as Bank Shares Tumble
http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?ptitle=Top%20Financial%20News&s1=blk&tp=ad_topright_topfin&T=markets_box.ht&s2=ad_right1_topfin&bt=ad_position1_topfin&box=ad_box_all&tag=financial&middle=ad_frame2_topfin&s=APdpPKxWqWWVuIEZh

Snippit:

New York, Nov. 19 (Bloomberg) -- The yen fell to its weakest against the euro since August 1999 as Japanese bank stocks tumbled on concern bad loans will deter investment and hamper a recovery in the world's second-largest economy.

Black Blade: Japanese banks are toast. Japanese leaders are now talking about nationalizing the top 4 Japanese banks as they have failed and are being bailed out by the government. Recently the BOJ announced plans to buy stocks held by these banks.



Black Blade (11/19/02; 16:04:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 89888)
Bank of America Says It Plans to Fire 900 Workers to Cut Costs
http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?ptitle=Top%20Financial%20News&s1=blk&tp=ad_topright_topfin&T=markets_box.ht&s2=ad_right1_topfin&bt=ad_position1_topfin&box=ad_box_all&tag=financial&middle=ad_frame2_topfin&s=APdpXgRToQmFuayBv

Snippit:

Charlotte, Nov. 19 (Bloomberg) -- Bank of America Corp., the third-biggest U.S. bank, plans to fire 900 technology and operations workers by the end of the year to cut costs.

Black Blade: More bank problems and B of A does its part to contribute 900 more "bones" to the growing "Bone Pile".



White Rose (11/19/02; 12:56:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 89887)
NPR 11 am eastern financial report
I have noticed how quite selective NPR is in giving financial numbers. While E-trade liked to only give you the Nasdaq during the mania, NPR liked to only give the Dow. Recently, they have been giving both the Dow and the Nasdaq.

At 11am, I almost jumped when I heard the Dow, the Nasdaq, and the mid-morning London gold fix. I'd love to know why they changed.

mikal (11/19/02; 12:16:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 89886)
Gold "trivia" food for thought
Two items gleaned from another gold forum this week.
Today a poster reports hearing the regular NPR news report with the stock market update, followed by the unusual mention of the London gold price!
Also, yesterday a poster reported that there are 20,000 Dec. gold call options at $320 due to expire on Thursday, so a price of $319.90 would allow them to expire worthless!

Old Yeller (11/19/02; 12:05:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 89885)
Roger Arnold on Japan,Germany and the housing market
http://www14.brinkster.com/dewdropin/rogerarnold111902.htm

ANOTHER fine mess,the dollar's catching a pretty strong
bid today.Lots of behind the scenes fence mending,it
would appear.

steady (11/19/02; 11:44:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 89884)
Primary Trends Signal Opportunity for Skillful Investors
the two graphs that are used for comparing gold vs the dow jones industrial average are not accurate comparisons. one is based in months (gold) the other djia average is based in years. lets be fair and compare apples with apples with not apples with oranges.
i love this site ... respect those who post on it but that chart comparison is not a fair comparison how may times has cnbc been chided for doiong the same thing yet here it is on this site> hmmmmmm !
gold and silver
HONEST money for HONEST people!
free gold open the mint.....

sector (11/19/02; 11:34:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 89883)
An EXXON Valdez Class Oil Disaster...
...is the very LAST thing the Administration wants...
...while it plans to invade a big oil producing, Arab nation that will surely provide no impedance to UN inspectors. Amid thin "Weapons" justifications and rising "It's the oil, stupid" protests, Bush may go ahead anyway. BTW Al Qeada will no doubt wait until AFTER a US invasion to strike...in order to secure the moral high ground [In their eyes].

If the Prez thumbs his nose at the UN, every crank anti-war dude and dudette from six to ninety-six in the Western World will suit-up. Kofi Annan will blubber away from his dinner parties and picturing anti-war protestors soaked in oil isn't so far fetched.

The media is gearing up...rushing to Spain's beaches...to rescue the seabirds from the evil and heartless oil profiteers.

Suddenly the war to get Iraqi oil just got a whole lot more difficult.

Imagine the media response when it's civilian blood flowing.




USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals, Inc. (11/19/02; 10:29:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 89882)
Make a statement
http://www.usagold.com/jewelry/goldjewelry.html
A gift says as much about the giver as it does the recipient. Give a kingly gift to that special someone in your life this holiday season.

Call Marie (ext.106) for friendly help, and avoid those jewelry store mark ups and sales taxes!

a nation of one (11/19/02; 10:19:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 89881)
the war

Saddam is a very, very bad boy.

We can be sure of this by comparing him to ourselves, by asking ourselves what we would do, if we were in his shoes. There can hardly be any question but that if you and I had a secret bunker somewhere, and if George Bush wanted to search it, we would let him. Indeed, who among us would not lead him to it?

USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc. (11/19/02; 10:11:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 89880)
The Great Money Giveaway supplants the "Strong Dollar Policy"
http://www.usagold.com/ProductsPage.html

Gold Today!

While the Administration's Treasury Department has fallen mum on the issue, the latest target rate cut (to 1.25%) by the Federal Reserve (with a bank lifeline discount rate at 0.75%!) tells the score loud and clear. In recent Congressional testimony Chairman Greenspan said that there is no "meaningful limit" to the Fed's power to inject money into the economy. And consider the dollar's legacy position as a reserve asset currently being held throughout the world. These are the things that sudden financial crisis and hyperinflations are made of.

Primary Trends Signal Opportunity for Skillful Investors

Just as the primary trend in gold is up as shown by our nearby
graph, the primary trend in stocks is down. If you diversify your
portfolio with gold, you not only gain by being in gold, you gain what
you would have lost in the stock market. Richard Russell, the
well-regarded long-time investment analyst who has correctly and
consistently forecasted the direction of both markets, says the stock
market and gold will cross in the 2000 to 3000 area. Think about that
for a moment. What will that mean to your portfolio if not properly
diversified with gold? What will it mean if it is?

Gold for you is an easy phone call away.
1-800-869-5115

We've been serving investors for three decades.
The assistance you want, the professionalism you need.

"As a lurker for almost three years it was the opinion expressed on this board as well as other commentary that forced my wife and I to examine the sanity of playing with our life savings in the stock market casino. We bailed completely as the Nasdog was crossing 4400 heading south and immediately went to the physical...the rest is history. Gratitude is an understatment for that heads up. I can't even begin to fathom where we might be otherwise."--Harry Harrison, aka Skydog.

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